Charlie Gibson (2:09)

That's right. Yes. And if you want to hear about our book, stay tuned. This is the Satisfaction Cafe is the name of it. And it's a. I think it's a lovely, lovely book. It's. It follows a character named Joan Liang. L I A N G. She comes to this country from Taiwan, and it follows her life all the way through to its end. And obviously, a book like this has to depend on your appreciating the character. And I think if you read this book, you will.

Kate (2:38)

Yeah, she's a beautiful character. And I think that Kathy Wang does an amazing job of writing Joan. And again, saying that it's somebody's life can make it feel like a very small book. I don't think that's it at all. It has incredible. I don't know. I related to so much of it, even though Joan's and my life are so different. And the Satisfaction Cafe that's referred to in the title is a fantasy that Joan has her whole life of a place that she can go and maybe get a slice of cake and a cup of coffee and sit down with a stranger and maybe have that stranger fulfill the need that you have at that moment, whatever you're looking for, to fulfill any loneliness that you have. Maybe you're looking for a mother's approval, so you sit down with an older mother. Maybe you're looking for somebody to make eye contact with you and flirt a little bit. And so she's got a host at the cafe that she opens eventually that does that. She hires a bunch of different hosts because she brings her fantasy to reality later in life so that she can alleviate folks loneliness, which I think is a beautiful mission.

Charlie Gibson (3:38)

Yes. And your alleviation of loneliness mentioned is very apt. There's a paragraph in the book that certainly struck both Kate and me, because Kathy Wang's observational powers are wonderful about Joan Liang and about just about everything. And it really reminded me of Ann Tyler's prose, of Sue Miller's prose. Two authors that I have enormous admiration for. So loneliness is a theme in her main character's life, Joan Liang's life. And we asked her to read a paragraph that struck both Katie and me about how loneliness can enter anybody's life.

Kathy Wang (4:15)

They're lonely, I guess, Mark said. He looked uncertainly at Joan, who stared down at the glass between her hands. It would be near impossible, she knew, to explain to these young, beautiful people how difficult it could be not to be lonely. Young people like Lee and Mark imagined loneliness as a consequence, something you did or didn't do to end up on your own. There was truth to that. Sometimes it really was the miserable who were alone and the deserving who were surrounded. Sometimes youth didn't understand, however, how much luck played into it, that loneliness wasn't always a choice. Whereas at Joan's age, You knew it was always somewhere ahead, waiting. It could happen to anyone.

Kate (5:02)

That passage spoke to me so deeply, just because when you're younger and you're at a cafe and you see an older lady or an older gentleman and they're enjoying their glass of wine and their bowl of pasta and you think, I hope they're happy with their solitary life that they've chosen. And I think one of the things that Kathy Wang is saying is that they may be making peace with that life, but it doesn't mean that they've chosen to be by themselves. Loneliness can be as much about luck as it can be about commitment to others. And so that passage really spoke to me about, as you get older, you understand it. I don't know. She said this is a book. You'll hear her say in the, in the, in the interview that this is a book that she wanted to reward rereading. I find that John Irving's writing changes for me as I get older. I start to understand new things, new themes, and I think this is a book like that. I understand it at this age probably in a different way than I'll understand it when I'm in my 60s. And Kathy Wang does that just beautifully.

Charlie Gibson (5:59)

We've talked often also about openings of books, and then I'll get to the conversation in just a second. But I love her opening that really pulls you into the book. Joan Liang's life in America began in Palo Alto, where she lived in the attic of a two story house on Azalea Street. Joan did chores for the widow who owned the house in exchange for reduced rent. And she never could have afforded such a nice neighborhood otherwise. She lived in that attic until she was married. And she was married for only six weeks before she stabbed her husband.

Kate (6:35)

Well, there's a hook.

Charlie Gibson (6:37)

I don't, I don't know if that's wish fulfillment for women who read the book or not, but, but it, it certainly gets you into it. So here's our conversation with Kathy Wang, the author of the Satisfaction Cafe. Kathy Wang, the novel is the Satisfaction Cafe, as we've mentioned, and it is a real treat to have you in the bookcase. I want to start by going back to something John Irving said to us when we started this podcast a number of years ago. He said that the author needs to give the reader a character in the first 10 pages, that they care about, that they care what happens to that person. This novel follows the entire life of Joan Liang. So tell me about her.

Kathy Wang (7:21)

Joan Liang is a, we meet her in the book she's 25 years old. She recently moved to California from Taiwan. So she is an immigrant. And it's funny that you mentioned John Irving because I do sometimes describe the book and her as a little bit like an Asian American version of the World According to Garp, but centered on an Asian American female. So she's really like an ordinary person, similar to Garp, but I think that the events of her life are described in a vivid manner. And she's also a very practical and impulsive person at the same time. And we follow her as that takes her through decades, essentially.

Charlie Gibson (8:01)

But do you buy John's theory and tell me how you set about as you wrote this to make me care about her?

Kathy Wang (8:09)

I do buy John's theory. I think for me personally, when I read a book, I always. It doesn't really need to have a plot. Like, I care about the characters a lot, so. So that's. That's all I care about, honestly, are the characters. I had read a piece of advice at one point, which was to put on a post it for things that you want your book to be and always have that in mind when you're writing. So I think when I wrote this, I had vivid, unexpected, moving, and then comic. And that is what I tried to keep in mind as I was, you know, every chapter I kind of went back and was like, do I feel that it embodied, you know, hopefully, all of these moving descriptors?

Kate (8:53)

Vivid, unexpected and unexpected.

Kathy Wang (8:57)

And unexpected, yeah.

Kate (9:00)

And it's interesting because in the first paragraph you write that she stabbed her husband. And I read an interview where you said you actually write in order, so you actually wrote that paragraph first. So before we get to the stabbing and how you work that into the first paragraph, are you a careful plotter, like, or do you write that first paragraph and let it take you on a ride?

Kathy Wang (9:21)

I'm not a careful plotter at all. So I don't have. I don't outline at all. I just kind of go wherever I feel like. I think I will say that I am a very. Like, when I'm writing, I'm pretty disciplined. Like, I'll write a thousand words a day and as a result I throw out a ton. Like I'll write entire novels almost that I throw out. So. So, like when I'm kind of free writing, at least, like, I. Sometimes I'll think about a place I could have put like a disposed plot line, you know, and I'll. And then I'll fit in this book, right? And that can take me somewhere. But I Don't outline or plan at all.

Kate (9:53)

But did you know she was gonna stab her husband? And how did that end up in the first paragraph or when you were writing? I was like, and she stabs her husband. Like, I'm just interested in your process in that first paragraph, since it was the first you wrote.

Kathy Wang (10:05)

I knew she was going to stab her husband because I knew that I wanted her to get a divorce almost right away. And I was like, what is a very fast way to establish that? And so that is.

Charlie Gibson (10:17)

That'll do it.

Kathy Wang (10:17)

And I. Yeah, and I wanted. Like I said, I wanted the scene to be vivid, too. I didn't want to necessarily. It to be like the slow burn of a marriage, which I also enjoy reading about, by the way. But in this case, I wanted it to be, you know, to have a lot of action, if that makes sense. And so that's. That's kind of how that. That came to be.

Charlie Gibson (10:36)

You, you mentioned a moment ago that character is always the most important thing to you. Joan comes to the US From Taiwan to study at Stanford, and. And she stays. And she's always, throughout her life, the outsider looking in. And loneliness becomes a theme of your novel. How does that affect your approach? It seems to me it makes the events of her life less important than her powers of observation.

Kathy Wang (11:04)

That's a very interesting way to put it, I think. I don't necessarily link her loneliness to the fact that she emigrates. And maybe it's their. In the back of it, but I think I myself am like a very lonely person. I don't. I don't. And I. I don't know if it's normal or not. Right. I mean, I just think that there's so many times in life when I feel a little bit lonely or I wish that I could have some more connection, or I observe someone else where I think that they're so clearly lonely, but they're acting out in ways that are not conducive to connection. And so it's just a topic that obsesses me. I think that loneliness in many ways is so inefficient sometimes because I feel that there's so many people out there who would like to connect. And so just that concept has just always fascinated me.

Kate (11:57)

I do think it's an assumption that young folks have that older people that are sitting alone at the cafe or the restaurant or the museum are doing it by choice. And so I guess what I'm interested in is, as you started to write this, how were you thinking about loneliness and what sort of role did you anticipate loneliness playing in Joan's life?

Kathy Wang (12:18)

I think what you say is totally correct, which is that when you're younger, you look at maybe people who are older than you and you're like, that's not gonna happen to me. And I'm gonna make a series of deliberate choices that takes me away from that place. And then later when you arrive there, I think you're like, I should have been more compassionate all along. And really these things happen to everyone. And it's kind of just part of the journey of being alive almost. And so for Joan, she was just almost a character that I put all of those feelings into. I think she just experiences that her entire life, which I think we all do. But probably, you know, just like in a book, you can't actually show the entire life. You show a select series of scenes. Those are the scenes that I think I chose to show in her life here. Right. And they all link together for that reason.

Charlie Gibson (13:16)

I especially liked Joan's relationship to wealth. She's exposed to it early. She marries into it, she likes the advantages that it affords her, but she never ceases to realize the hypocrisies of it or the absurdities of it at times. And you mentioned comic as one of the things that you keep in mind during all this talk to me about her approach. Again, it's her observations that are so acute, I think, but particularly about wealth.

Kathy Wang (13:44)

I think wealth is such an interesting topic, especially when you live, I think, in very expensive areas where like what to other, you know, like white might appear to sound extremely extravagant when you're in that area is just very common in a way, if that. If that makes sense. Even though I know that makes me sound a little crazy to say that I think I wanted Joan's relationship to wealth to be very accurate, if that makes sense and non judgmental. I don't think that all wealthy people are terrible and should be parodied and nor do I think that all non wealthy people are saintly. I think that people are just people and money certainly is a factor in who they are, but it's not necessarily the defining factor all the time. And so I think, you know, wealth is something that Joan experiences and she does observe things because of it. She, you know, observes what new wealth is like and what old wealth is like. But I don't think she ever necessarily judges it. She's just like, this is what I see and I have to live with it.

Kate (14:52)

The title struck me of this book, Joan in the Latter half of her life makes a very deliberate choice to open a cafe, the Satisfaction Cafe. And she staffs it with folks who can sit with people and maybe fulfill some of the emptiness in their lives through conversation. I'm interested that you called it the Satisfaction Cafe and not the Happiness Cafe and not the Ecstatic Cafe. It's such an American concept. I think that happiness is something that can be bought, pursued, attained, and if you're not happy, there's something wrong with you. And it seems to me that Joan deliberately named it the Satisfaction Cafe. So I guess I want to start with what does the word satisfaction mean to you? And why did she call it the Satisfaction Cafe?

Kathy Wang (15:37)

I love the term satisfaction. I think it is. I think I had mentioned in another interview that an alternate title for the book was like A Reasonable Amount of Happiness. Or, you know, or, you know, it's also like a sustained level of happiness. Right? Like, I don't, I think that it's what's achievable and what we as humans should aim for. And I think if we're like, I need to feel happy, why don't I feel happy? Then you're always going to be extremely unhappy. Because I just don't think it's a state that you can live in or remain in. Especially I think if you want to be realistic and clear eyed about the world, I think if you want to, want to do a lot of drugs or like, or just be, you know, totally in a different, like dissociate from reality, then yes, you can achieve that. But if you want to remain in this world and also I just think be realistic. I think satisfaction is a great aim to have. Also I this, I think culturally growing up, you know, my husband is, he's Hungarian, he's European and I'm, you know, Chinese. I, I did never experience like, I didn't think that you were supposed to be happy all the time. It just wasn't how we grew up culturally. Like, you know, when you went to dinner parties with, as a kid, you know, and I was with my parents, everyone was pretty unhappy. Like, no one had to be like, I was super happy. And so when I got married, my husband was like, no, you're supposed to be really happy all the time. And that was very foreign to me. I had no idea that was a thing.

Charlie Gibson (17:08)

Well, take me back a step and tell me what the Satisfaction Cafe is. How does she envision it and how does she bring it to reality?

Kathy Wang (17:18)

So I would say that the Satisfaction Cafe, the way that it's a Cafe, as you described, where you can kind of go and have a bit of conversation with a host that is acclimated for whatever your specific preferences are, so they can be just very patient and listen to you talk, or they can give you feedback, et cetera, et cetera. I really wanted to envision a third space where someone with almost no financial limitations could create. I think it was almost that part of the book is the greatest part of fantasy for me, where I was like, if I had unlimited funds and I wanted to start a small business, what would it look like? And that is what I, you know, what I thought about, you know, I would want it to serve all my favorite foods. It doesn't need to have a cohesive theme, which is why that cafe serves, like, Vietnamese noodle soup and also chocolate croissants. And I would want it just to be a place where you feel a little bit more connected. And so that was always kind of my marching goal with Joan.

Charlie Gibson (18:14)

As I was reading it, I kept thinking about the Peanuts cartoons and Lucy, Lucy Van Pelt, who set out her little stand and said, what's psychiatric analysis? Five cents. And I thought, that's what Kathy has in mind for the satisfaction Cafe. People coming in just through conversation and begin to see things in a little bit better perspective. A lot cheaper than it would be to go to therapy. So can you envision a cafe like that? You have a Harvard Business degree. I can't. I don't know quite how you make it pay.

Kathy Wang (18:50)

I don't think it has to pay. I mean, look, I do have a business degree, so I did stress like I was. And I. I think in all my books, because of my background, I always get muddled, muddied in the financial details. I'm always like, this doesn't make sense. Or a remodel would never just be six months or, you know, and then you get out of it. But there is a certain level of suspension of disbelief. I would also just say that, you know, you look at what billionaires are doing these days, like, they go buy sports teams, and they have big weddings in Venice and they build crazy yachts. I think that they're willing to do all kinds of things that don't make any financial sense. And this is actually one that I think would benefit. Benefits. The community costs less than a yacht. I just think it's a much more achievable, lovely idea. So, you know, much less than going to space.

Charlie Gibson (19:35)

Well, I never understood the economics of Lucy's. Of Lucy's stand either. How she could make money at 5 cents, I couldn't figure out. And here we have Joan hiring hosts all over the place to talk to her customers. But you certainly have artistic license in that regard.

Kate (19:50)

Yes, but I think in some ways it calls out an interesting part of the human condition. I mean, dad, you and I have talked about one of the things that's difficult about marriage.

Kathy Wang (19:59)

It's.

Kate (19:59)

It's easy in some ways to try and figure out what the other person needs, but maybe it's not so easy to figure out what you need. And Joan has a particular talent at sort of knowing what jigsaw piece is missing in somebody's life. She knows if you need mother approval, she'll set you with an elderly lady who will provide that for you. She knows if you just need a listening ear, if you want somebody to just read a book to you. But maybe she isn't so great at knowing those things about herself. Do you think, Kathy, that's part of the human condition?

Kathy Wang (20:28)

I think absolutely that's part of the human condition. And I think that we also, even when we know the things that we want, I think a lot of the times we feel embarrassed about them or ashamed or just nervous to say it. I think even with the people that we're closest with, it's hard to sometimes say what it is you really want. And I think part of the concept of the cafe is it's sometimes easier to say it to someone you're just paying who you're never going to see again or who you can choose not to see again. It's often so much easier to have that connection with a stranger.

Charlie Gibson (21:01)

I mentioned earlier that what struck me so was Joan Liang's power of observation, which is your power of observation since you write it and you make up the scene and you observe it. But I kept thinking of Ann Tyler's works or Sue Miller's works, in which the observation of small details really puts you in the scene. And I think you do that so well. Would you embrace that comparison? Is that something that is so important to developing character, to have that ability of observation for your character?

Kathy Wang (21:37)

Yes, absolutely. And I would definitely embrace that description. I love both of their works, but especially Anne Tyler. I grew up reading her work. I will read anything that she writes. So she had actually read this book and said something kind about it. And I think it was one of the most meaningful parts of the publication for me. She just makes me feel more seen whenever I read her work. It doesn't matter who it is. I mean, they're all in Baltimore. But whether it's a man or a woman, old or young, whenever she writes, I feel that I feel less alone.

Kate (22:08)

I read that this was your first book that you wrote with the omniscient point of view, and I wonder why. And I know it was something you struggled with a little bit because it was your first time doing that. Why did you think omniscience was so important to this book?

Kathy Wang (22:22)

I really wanted it to be a book that you read just without being jolted out of it, if that makes sense. I wanted it to be like one singular journey. It was also, I think, the first book that I read with the reader in mind, which, you know, I think sounds a little bit crazy, but I don't. Like. I don't have a writing background. So my first two books, my first one especially, I just wrote down, like, I didn't write it thinking it was going to be published. You write what you want to put down. This is the first one where I was like, what is the experience that I want the reader to have? I want them to have a pleasurable experience, and I want them to have almost like a classic reading experience. Like, I grew up reading, like I said, like the work of Ann Tyler, of John Irving. And those books, like, when you entered them, you felt like you were in that cohesive world. And that's really what I wanted to do here.

Charlie Gibson (23:11)

When you write a book that has a character so singular and so much a part of the book, I mean, the book is hers. So when you put it down, do you miss Joan Lange?

Kathy Wang (23:23)

Yeah, I think of course you do. I mean, I lived with her for three years, so she's a real person to me, you know, and it's. I always thought it was very precious, to be honest. When I used to, you know, I. I started writing maybe 10 years ago, and before that, when I would listen to interviews with directors or authors, when they talk about their characters as if they're people, I was like, oh, that's so twee. That's just. I don't know, such an affect. But now I realize it's real. They become truly real people to you. And I do miss her.

Charlie Gibson (23:54)

Normally we talk to authors of novels that have just come out, and therefore there are no reviews. But you've been out for a little while. And I was struck by one sentence in a review that appeared in the Seattle Times, but I thought it perfectly summed up the book. The effect is that Wang's short, graceful chapters are like brushstrokes. And Joan is the resulting work of Art. That's a very, very nice way to put it. Kathy Wang.

Kate (24:16)

Thank you, Kathy Wang. If you'd stick around, we've got some rapid fire questions for you.

Kathy Wang (24:27)

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Kate (26:03)

Rapid Fire Questions for Kathy Wang Lesser known book you recommend to everyone?

Kathy Wang (26:09)

Oh my gosh. There's a book called Villain by Shuichi Yoshida. He I love the book. He I think it's a very well read crime writer in Japan, but I don't think it got a big audience in the U.S. it's a little bit of a cold book. It's a murder mystery, but I just, I love it for some reason. I read it. I've read it probably like five times.

Charlie Gibson (26:29)

Rue. Great book. You feel guilty for not having read Middlemarch?

Kate (26:37)

Me too.

Kathy Wang (26:37)

Okay.

Charlie Gibson (26:39)

I second the moment.

Kathy Wang (26:41)

Okay.

Kate (26:41)

Yeah. Every time somebody actually says a book that we haven't read, we're like, oh yeah, sorry.

Kathy Wang (26:46)

I really want to claim that I read it. So that's the setting part.

Kate (26:51)

Favorite character in literature.

Kathy Wang (26:53)

I want to say something a little bit more high route, but I will say Bridget Jones. I like it.

Charlie Gibson (27:01)

How come?

Kathy Wang (27:02)

I think it's just a hilarious character. And it was. I loved those two books growing up. And the second one, the Edge of Reason, was just as good as the first book, I felt like. I don't know. Have either of you read them?

Kate (27:16)

I haven't read the Edge of Reason.

Kathy Wang (27:17)

Oh. It was really good. And it just. It was just wonderful. I love those books. It's a very vivid character. She sustained, like, four movies, too. I mean, so she did.

Kate (27:29)

Plus, there's something I. She's a special place in my heart for neuroses. Anyway. Sorry, go ahead.

Kathy Wang (27:34)

Yes.

Kate (27:36)

What do you use as a bookmark?

Kathy Wang (27:38)

Hair. Bobby pins.

Kate (27:40)

Really?

Kathy Wang (27:40)

Yeah. Like, I have one right now. Okay.

Charlie Gibson (27:46)

That wouldn't work for me. Couldn't do. That book you'd give most often as a present, not your own.

Kathy Wang (27:56)

The Ferrante novels. The Neapolitan. That trio. You know, most people I know aren't authors, so believe it or not, like, they've never heard of them. They'd never heard of Elena Ferrante. So I'm like, here you go. You're welcome.

Kate (28:09)

Best piece of advice you ever received about writing?

Kathy Wang (28:13)

I think that the reader is your friend in it, that you have to go arm in arm with the reader to write. It can't just be about you and your ego or whatever revenge fantasy you want to ignite on the page. It has. You should be writing a lockstep with the reader.

Charlie Gibson (28:33)

Kathy Wang, thank you very much for joining us. It was great fun to talk to you.

Kathy Wang (28:37)

Thank you so much for having me.

Charlie Gibson (28:44)

One of the interesting things to me, Kate, this is her third novel, and whenever we see a book that's endorsed by Ann Patchett, we sit up and take notice, because I think Ann Patchett is a wonderful, wonderful writer, a very interesting human being and wonderful taste in novels. And Ann Patchett finds this book worthy, and therefore, so do Kate and I. So do Kate and me.

Kate (29:09)

Kate and I can. Oh, grammar Police.

Charlie Gibson (29:15)

So do Kate and I are right. Hold on. What is it? So do Kate and I. Oh, so do Kate and I. Oh, my God, I love that.

Kate (29:23)

My mother has a chirp in. She is the Grammar Police. So when you make that siren noise, she's not far behind. There are a few people that, when they blur books, I read them almost automatically. Stephen King is one. Ann Patchett is another. If John Irving ever blurbed a book, I haven't seen it, but if he did, I would. So there are writers that I trust that much with their taste. And so when Ann Patchett says, this is a joy of a book, or, you have to read this, or I loved this, then I'm usually the first person at the bookstore to pick it up. So this book is.

Charlie Gibson (29:54)

But I raise it, Kate, because Ann Patchett endorses this book and that's, that's a big deal in terms of bookselling. And yet Kathy Wang told us in our conversation, although we didn't, we edited it out. But she has another job. She has a full time job. You know, she's hedging her bets. And, and I think that's true. You know, every, every actor spends a fair bit of time waiting tables and I'm, I'm not surprised that, that Kathy Wang, who has a degree from the Harvard Business School, has another job and just to make sure that things are okay. And, and maybe if the book doesn't do well, I've got some insurance in my life.

Kate (30:33)

Well, and I think it probably provides you with a certain amount of freedom as well. You know, you don't have to necessarily write for the market or write for your agent or write for your editor. I imagine that maybe Stacey Abrams feels that same sort of freedom who we talked to a few weeks ago. You know, if you got a day job, maybe that provides you some creative freedom. And I think Kathy Wang definitely felt that with this book, she really wrote it for her readers and she wrote something that she herself would love to read, which again is something Jay Ryan talked about too, when we talked to him. He's just written something he would love to read and what a great way to satisfy your own artistic talents.

Charlie Gibson (31:11)

But that's a good point, that you have freedom, that it gives you a greater flexibility as you write and that you don't have to worry about. Is this going to fill a niche in what is very popular? Are you trying to write for commercial success or are you trying to write for yourself? Anyway, Kathy Wang, we thank her very much for joining us. The Satisfaction Cafe. Here are the folks who really make this show possible. And then at the end, a coda from Kathy Wang.

Kate (31:37)

The book Case with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg, Arielle Chester at Good Morning America and Josh Cohan from ABC Audio. Follow the bookcase wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to listen, rate and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have them linked in the episode description.

Kathy Wang (32:06)

I constantly am trying to remind myself that I should be kinder when someone frustrates me, when I think someone is an idiot, when someone cuts me off in traffic. It has never benefited me to be angry. I always try to remind myself that it's better to be kind and understanding. It just leads me to a better place.

Charlie Gibson (32:28)

This episode is brought to you by FX's alien Earth, the official podcast. Each week, host Adam Rogers is joined by guests, including the show's creator, cast and crew. In this exclusive companion podcast. They will explore story elements, elements, deep dive into character motivations and offer an episode by episode, behind the scenes breakdown of each terrifying chapter in this new series. Search FX's alien Earth wherever you listen to podcasts.