Kate (3:22)

Yeah, it's got some great atmospheric writing. I think of it as like a cross between, like, the Untouchables, Gangs of New York. There's like, elements of the Sting Con in it, which we talk about a little in the interview. It's hard to break down the plot, but what I will basically say is it's a heist book between six people, the six of crows, all of whom are somewhat flawed in a way, but are all deeply interesting characters. And this is a multiple perspective novel of this exacting heist that they have to pull off, which may very well be a suicide mission. I guess that's the best way that I can probably synopsize the plot, I.

Charlie Gibson (3:58)

Think, you know, to try to do it in 10 or 15 seconds, I think that's as good an attempt as you can do. I want to bring up one major point that she makes, but I will do that after you hear our conversation with Lee. Lee Bardugo, the Six of Crows and.

Kate (4:12)

The Crooked Kingdom, the second in the duology of these two books. Leigh Bardugo, it is such a pleasure to have you in the bookcase. I love your work. I love these two books specifically. The first question I want to ask is, why are we doing this interview now? These books have been out for a long time. I want to give you a chance to plug what's happening with these things now.

Leigh Bardugo (4:36)

Oh, thank you. Yes. These books have been out for a decade and we're about to celebrate the 10th anniversary. I'm gonna hit the road for that. I'm gonna go on tour. And we've also released a paperback repackage that we're calling the Dregs edition with some new art. And I think they're. I. I think they're very good looking. Not that I'm biased At all.

Kate (4:56)

I, I. You have talked to so many folks about this book, from, like, the New York Times to Entertainment Weekly. So I've, I've read the story about you being inspired by the movie Billboard with George Clooney. You think George Clooney, Ocean's 11th, and out comes this magical fantasy heist book. But I want to take you into that story with a little more detail. What comes first? Do you think to yourself, I need to start with the heist? And so you start putting together the heist. What came first after you had the inspiration to do the heist?

Leigh Bardugo (5:26)

Well, the way I always describe it is that some people call it like a crock pot cooking on the stove. I think of it as kind of a theater proscenium. And there's a bunch of characters waiting in the wing. So I already had an idea for a character known as Dirty Hands who would do the things no one else wanted to do. I wanted to write about a Grisha magic user and the man who's hunting her having to survive. But none of these were complete stories. They were character stubs. They were just waiting. And then I got this idea for a kind of magical heist, and I thought, oh, of course. These characters have been waiting to join this crew. I am going to force them to work together to accomplish an impossible goal. And they're going to fight, and they're gonna flirt, and we're gonna end up with six of crows eventually. So for me, I'm a little bit of a popcorn writer. Like, I think I always start with the idea that something will just be a romp. Won't it be fun? Won't it be fun to have six dangerous outcasts and one impossible heights? Wouldn't be fun to write something set in the secret societies at Yale? And then when I start to explore the stories, that's where the kind of depth and big questions come in. Because if you're gonna write about six criminals, you have to ask about the culture and society that created those cr.

Kate (6:38)

When you say you have characters waiting in the wings, are you saying that you have a cadre of characters in the back of your mind waiting for a story? So in some ways, it's like that play six characters waiting for an author. Is that how it works?

Leigh Bardugo (6:52)

I think that's a little too orderly for what anything inside my brain looks like. Though I appreciate the thought. For me, it's more, you know, you don't know when inspiration is going to arrive. It rarely arrives on time. So when I get ideas, I pour Them literally into a file that says story ideas. They often arrive late at night when I'm falling asleep, or in the morning when I'm waking up. So I'll leave a little voice message for myself and transcribe it later, usually when I'm on a flight somewhere. And all of those are part of the stew that my subconscious is working on. And this is a piece of advice I give to authors all the time who are aspiring writers who are maybe working a full time job or taking care of kids is you need to let your subconscious work for you. So if you only have 15 minutes or 30 minutes to write, your job at the end of that is to set a question for your brain to be working on as you're going about the business of the day. And that's how you don't have to start from zero when you. When you sit down the next time. So for me, it's a similar thing where I'm letting all of these ideas cook and stew and become what they're meant to be. So that when I get an idea for a story like this, that again, it's not starting from zero. There's a lot of ideas that have been piling up, waiting for their. Yes, I guess waiting for their big opportunity to step forward and have a solo.

Charlie Gibson (8:03)

So I hear you saying the plot comes first, character setting, et cetera, et cetera comes after.

Leigh Bardugo (8:12)

Yeah, I think my characters actually really start as archetypes. And you can see those on the back of the book, right? Thief with a gift for unlikely escapes. A magic wielder using her gifts to survive in the slums. You know, these are archetypes of heist characters. And finding the depth of them for me is the pleasure of writing. I need an outline of the plot in order to, in order to write, I have to know. That's a fundamental part of my process. I need to know where I'm going. However, the characters are like the carrots that keep me going. Discovering them, their backstories, the way they interact, that is the pleasure of creation for me.

Charlie Gibson (8:47)

But Lee, that outline had to be very, very long, it seems to me.

Leigh Bardugo (8:54)

I tend to write very lean first drafts and build onto them. The actual proposal summary outline quite short. Then there was the zero draft, which for me is the draft no one will see. And it's essentially a very fleshed out outline. So to give you an idea, my 0 draft of 6 of CROWS was 30,000 words. It was me filling in everything that I knew, everything I was excited by. And then the final draft of six of crows. The draft that would end up on shelves was 130,000 words. So for me, it's an iterative process of adding and adding and adding and moving things around. And this book was honestly one of the biggest challenges of my career. It was the hardest book I'd ever written because it was so different from anything I'd done before. But the thing I've learned is to lean into that discomfort. When you are doing something bigger and better and more challenging, it is not gonna be comfortable. And instead of turning away from that and saying, oh, I'm gonna go clean my closet, or I'm gonna check Instagram, I turn. Now, when I have these ideas that scare me, I turn toward them. Cause it turns out they're the most interesting and exciting. And sometimes I'm moving things and I'm wrestling with something that doesn't belong there, that needs to be moved to another part or that needs to be cut entirely. I don't wanna give the illusion that it's, you know, just an easy process. But for me, the most difficult part of writing is the first draft. I love revising.

Kate (10:16)

When did you have to solidify the heist? Did you have to do it before you started writing, or did you do it as you were writing and developing your characters?

Leigh Bardugo (10:25)

I knew the major beats of the heist. I knew that they were going to enter the ice court. I knew that certain things were going to have to happen there. But in an outline or even in the early stages of a draft, you know, a fight scene is just a fight scene. The reality is, if you want that fight scene to be meaningful, it can't just be choreography, Right? Every step of that heist has to present a challenge for these characters. They, in order to get out of this literal prison, they have to face their own worst enemy, their demons, et cetera. That's the only way for them to win. Otherwise, I think it's superficial. It's fun, but it's not gonna tell you anything about them. So for me, that was the challenge was bringing together the mechanics of the heist with where these characters needed to go. And when I wrote this book, I wasn't sure if it was gonna be one book or two books or three books. And when I reached the end of this, I thought, okay, I have resolved the plot elements. But these characters are really still a mess, and they need another book to know who they are and to make up and to forge these alliances like they are still in need of many more of therapy.

Charlie Gibson (11:33)

Katie has brought me not Kicking and screaming, but somewhat reluctantly, I guess I should say, into the fantasy world.

Leigh Bardugo (11:41)

I'm so glad that you've been brought to our side, because I think some of the most interesting and exciting work happens in fantasy and science fiction.

Kate (11:51)

Did you know when you sat down to write this book, you'd be writing from multiple perspectives?

Leigh Bardugo (11:57)

Oh, my. So I always knew it would need to be multiple points of view, because heists are all about the release of information and what you know when. And making sure that when the twists come, they're surprised, but they feel earned. And that your reader can go back and see all the little breadcrumbs you set up for them. So in a way, it's like magic, right? The trick doesn't work if people can't be led along to it first. You don't start with the rabbit coming out of the hat. Okay? So for me, I knew that going in, and it felt very natural. It almost felt like I was moving the camera to look at a particular character or understand a particular charact, particular moment.

Charlie Gibson (12:29)

It always amazes me when a writer says, this character surprised me because all the characters are basically your employees.

Leigh Bardugo (12:38)

Of course, it's entirely you. But the alchemy of writing and the good days of writing, the days when you're not just sort of struggling through it and saying, okay, I gotta hit my word count when the story is flowing in front of you that I cannot explain to you, that's almost a kind of insanity that we're allowed. Like we're allowed to have a momentary break with reality for the hour that we're writing or the two hours that we're writing or the 10 hours that we're writing, where we get to inhabit that world and a completely different identity. And it is. Those are the days that we live for. When you forget it's a job and it's just a joy. So that's when the characters tend to surprise you or excite you in this unique way. And I do believe that those moments are the ones that also resonate with readers the most powerfully.

Kate (13:25)

Hmm.

Charlie Gibson (13:26)

You say you sit down with an outline, but then as you hit this cruising speed and you're flowing and it's coming and it's. The muse is with you. You then vary from the outline. You move aside.

Leigh Bardugo (13:39)

I mean, my big points very rarely move right. And for me, look, the outline is a safety blanket. I just spoke with an author who I'm going to be collaborating with, and she does not work from an outline. And we had to sort of find a Way to work together. So I would know where she was headed. But I really respect any author. Any author who can maintain momentum. It doesn't matter how you get there, as long as the book gets done. I need that safety net.

Charlie Gibson (14:05)

We had somebody who was with us a couple of years ago who writes in fantasy, and she said she creates a Wikipedia page for the world in which she is creating. Now, it sounds like that's a little bit the same as the outline that you write, but that does at least give her a framework.

Leigh Bardugo (14:23)

I would say, again, everybody's process is different. The question I get probably the most, other than where do you get your ideas, is how do you world build? Right. And I think we have a misconception about that. We have this idea that world building just belongs to science fiction and fantasy and it's about magic and it's about creatures and about. No world building exists in every book we read. And if I point to the influences on Six of Crows, I would point to movies like the Untouchables, Right. That have nothing to do with magic, but have a very specific sense of place and a sense of how power operates in that world. What does that. We just rewatched this movie. Amazing. But what do we have to establish if we're gonna take you into a world? How the power works there and what the place and how the sense of place impacts that power. If you're writing about a spy thriller that's set in Washington, D.C. or a murder in a small Southern town, you're still giving your readers those signposts. So what I always say to authors is that's your job to establish sense of power and sense of place. And it is okay to build those worlds iteratively. You can write that first outline and then do a whole bunch of research and start layering things in, start moving things around. You're going to realize that there are real world things and ideas that are going to impact how you want to shape that world, to make it feel immersive. If you're just throwing nonsense at your reader, they're going to check out. They're going to check out. And you know, when you're in the hands of somebody who really knows the world and knows what's happening off the page and knows what happened 10 years before and 10 years after. But I think it's so easy, particularly for young authors, to get overwhelmed. And so it's important to say everybody has a different strategy and you don't have to know everything all at once.

Kate (16:11)

Hmm. It's funny. I actually thought of when I was describing this book to my father, I'm like, it's half Gangs of New York and half the Sting.

Leigh Bardugo (16:19)

I love that.

Kate (16:21)

Which are great. Which are also great places of time and place. I want to sort of tell you why fantasy can be frustrating for my father. And I want you to talk a little bit about the specific technique of how you do it.

Leigh Bardugo (16:34)

I feel like we're in a cult and we brought him in and you're like, I got a real hard case for you. You're going to have to work on him.

Kate (16:39)

Get on the couch, dad. Let's talk about the inner trauma that's caused your nose. But I mean like, fantasy always starts out by dropping the reader, essentially dropping the reader from the sky into a place. And it, and then it says, catch up. I, I, you know, we're going to hit you with a story, we're going to hit you with some words you don't know. Maybe the characters names will be confusing and you have to take a leap of faith with the author. And I think one of the things that frustrates him about fantasy is he, I don't know, dad, I'm going to throw you under the bus a little bit. But sometimes he goes, I feel stupid. I don't understand what's going on. What's the system of. So as a writer, how do you attach the, how do you attack those first 40 or 50 pages when you know you're going to be inviting the reader to catch up and you don't want to dummy down by explaining things to them, but you want them to go along with you?

Charlie Gibson (17:28)

I would add to that that so many authors have said to us, the first 10, 20 pages are so critical that you have to grab them right away so that they'll want to stay. And what Kate just described is somewhat antithetical to that.

Leigh Bardugo (17:41)

If you read the first chapter of Dune, Dune is going to throw 25 terms at you in the first 25 pages. So I think we have to kind of be willing to say, I'm going to trust you, I'm going to trust you. And the author then has to deserve that trust. If you get to the middle of that book and they're still introducing new concepts to you, still giving you loredom, still, then you start, that trust starts to break. And I think that's really when people start to check out. Like you only get so much of a buy in and then people will say, this is arbitrary. I don't think this person knew where they were going. This Feels retrofitted. I think readers are very sensitive to that. If I ask you, how does your family celebrate the holidays? You're not gonna sit down and say to me, well, Christmas is a holiday that began like, you're not going to give me a lecture on the lore of Christmas. You're gonna say, oh, we sit down around a table and my mom always makes this recipe and, you know, we decorate with these baubles that are really cheap, that came from a Sears catalog. And you're gonna give us those personal elements of the story. And that's what keeps us hooked in as we're learning about the world. It cannot be a travel guide. It has to be linked to character intimately.

Charlie Gibson (18:49)

Lee, a couple of times you have paired in talking about it, saying fantasy and science fiction. When I was a kid, I was a science fiction addict, and at some point things morphed, I think, in terms of popularity from science fiction to fantasy. How do you differentiate the two? And what was the trigger that made that transition? Was it Tolkien? Was it Rowling in the Harry Potter books? What has really brought fantasy into front and center popularity with readers?

Leigh Bardugo (19:21)

I lump them together, but I don't think that sci fi is out of the game. I think we're still seeing it. A great example is Gideon the Ninth. That's. I would call that science fiction, but it's also has a deep element of fantasy. To me, the most exciting places are the places where genre blurs and where you can't necessarily categorize the thing. And I will say too, that is, again, a place of discomfort for people. People really want to know what's on the tin. They want to know everything that's in the thing. It's almost as if surprise has become a scary thing to us when we read. And to me, that is the greatest pleasure is to read a book and really be taken by surprise. But I think if you're willing to just, you know, for the first 50 pages, if you're willing to just experience that discomfort a little bit, you're gonna go someplace that you've never been before. How many people can say that?

Charlie Gibson (20:13)

Thank you so much, Leigh Bardugo. And we'll have her stand by for some rapid fire questions. But Katie, I'm really interested in the point that she makes that it's not just fantasy writers who create worlds. As she said, you know, if you see the Untouchables, it creates a little world. Or if you see a movie, I don't know, pick one.

Kate (20:32)

No, I love her literary example is the shipping news, which I remember feeling when I read the Shipping News. It's a universe I don't know much about. And Annie Prolux does this amazing job of painting the atmosphere sort of into each page. And I think her argument is a really good one. There are mysteries that do it too, like what would and then There Were None Be, you know, by Agatha Christie without an isolated island that nobody can get off of.

Charlie Gibson (20:57)

You know, it's an interesting novel, you know, that takes you back to the 19th century and all of a sudden you have to, you know, go along with what the setting is. So, so I, I think she makes a very valid point that don't just say it's it's fantasy writers who create an alternative world. Almost every author does it and almost every movie does it as well. Anyway, we, we enjoy talking to to Leigh Bardugo and we're gonna take a pause and then give her some rapid fire questions.

Leigh Bardugo (21:31)

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Charlie Gibson (22:32)

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Leigh Bardugo (23:17)

I knew that when I was a little kid, I was an only child, and I wrote stories from the time I could write or. And I told stories to myself from the time I could talk. I knew in junior high that writing was my survival method. It was my way of coping with the world. And that's also when I discovered science fiction and fantasy. I don't think I knew I could make a living at it until I sold probably my sixth book. You know, up until then, there was. There's. There was that feeling of, yeah, I made it to the party, but someone's gonna. The bouncer's gonna find me and throw me out any minute now.

Kate (23:51)

So if you could live in any magical world that has been created, which one would you live in?

Leigh Bardugo (23:58)

Why, Holly Black's Elfhame. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. She writes these dark, very dark books with her own brilliantly executed idea of the fae. And if you want just a delicious read, the Cruel Prince is so much fun. That trilogy is just. And also has a lot of cons in it. Like, it has a lot of great plot turns. That second book is a study in conning the reader and conning the characters at the same time. Just delicious. I would die there probably within, you know, two hours, but I would have a great two hours and I would wear something. Fabulous.

Kate (24:34)

Book you feel guilty for not having read. Oh, gosh.

Leigh Bardugo (24:38)

This is so Lord of the Rings. Oh, I tried. I didn't like it. I'm gonna be sapphire jewel. It's just not my thing. No, that's okay.

Kate (24:49)

I've only read the Hobbit. I never read. I never read the Lord of the Rings. I only ever read the Hobbit.

Leigh Bardugo (24:56)

But I will tell you something. There's like a secret club of. And I mean of people who have won Hugos who are not Lord of the Rings fans. Now, that said Lord of the Rings, as those are the shoulders upon which we all stand, only respect. It's just not my. That's not the voice that I love to read.

Kate (25:14)

Hmm.

Leigh Bardugo (25:15)

Oh, God, please cut that out of the podcast. I am. I cannot imagine. I cannot imagine the blowback I am about to receive. Just say the Corrections by Jonathan Franzen. That won't get me in any trouble at all. I also haven't read that one.

Charlie Gibson (25:30)

Greatest satisfaction to you as a writer.

Leigh Bardugo (25:33)

Oh. Hearing that one of my books is a comfort book. That means people go back and read it again and again. I really needed fiction to survive my childhood years, my high school years. And like, when I am in moments of the greatest stress, that is what I do is I go back to certain books, often, frequently audiobooks, actually, and just fall into them. And so hearing that from a reader is pretty powerful for me.

Kate (25:59)

What book have you read most often?

Leigh Bardugo (26:01)

Probably Agatha Christie, actually. And I can't narrow it down to a single book, but I know Agatha Christie inside and out.

Charlie Gibson (26:10)

Would you ever be able to retire, or is writing something that you. That you have to do that's nagging at you when you're not writing?

Leigh Bardugo (26:17)

I would never retire from writing books. I would retire from social media. I would retire from promoting. I would retire from touring aggressively. And, in fact, I am gonna be cutting back heavily on touring. But writing, that's the thing that keeps me steady.

Kate (26:32)

What is the most common pitfall for fantasy writers?

Leigh Bardugo (26:36)

Oh, my. I think for early writers, it's spending all of your time building the world and not in the draft. So much is going to change, and there's no amount of preparation you can make to spare yourself the discomfort of writing that first draft. You have to simply accept that it is part of the process. It's part of every writer's process, and that every book on your shelf, some writer went through an existential crisis while writing that book. I guarantee it.

Charlie Gibson (27:06)

Leigh Bardugo, it's a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you ever so much for joining us today.

Leigh Bardugo (27:10)

Thank you.

Kate (27:15)

Leigh Bardugo. I loved talking to her. I love the way she thinks about her own writing and the thoughtfulness of her choices. I'll tell you, I get why you find fantasy frustrating, although I think of it as buying a ticket on a ro. And you just have to trust that the author is gonna, you know, you're gonna land somewhere cool. And I enjoy that. But I have two problems with fantasy myself. One is the one that you mentioned when we started the show, which is it's often too violent. There's a lot of rape in it in a lot of books.

Charlie Gibson (27:44)

Certainly not in the book.

Kate (27:45)

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not at all.

Charlie Gibson (27:47)

But there's.

Kate (27:47)

I call them sort of babies on spikes novels. I mean, they're just. There's a lot of violence, and I like horror, so it's weird for me to sort of say that. But there's some really tough stuff in fantasy book ones that I think of sometimes are, you know, where there isn't very good writing, which, again, is not the case in these books. It's one of the reasons I love these books so much. There's great Banter. There's great dialogue, there's great description. There's great atmosphere. And sometimes with books, you open it up and the dragons are talking in, like, old English, like, forsooth, forsooth, we will go slay the king. And I'm like, I'm sorry, this is just ridiculous. You've completely lost me.

Charlie Gibson (28:22)

Was it Katherine Rondell that we talked to who wrote a fantasy novel that.

Kate (28:27)

Yeah. Impossible Creatures?

Charlie Gibson (28:28)

Yeah, I thought that was very good.

Kate (28:30)

Very good.

Charlie Gibson (28:31)

But again, I had to sort of write down my own glossary as the novel went on. And in the back of the second book of this duology, there is a glossary, which I actually had to refer to at times. But once you get into it and once you know who's who and have a basic sense of the terminology, some of which you can pick up in context, then it flows.

Kate (28:52)

Yeah. And she's a terrific writer. She really is. Very bright.

Charlie Gibson (28:56)

Very bright.

Kate (28:56)

Yeah. I think, listeners, if you give this a chance, you will be glad that you did. And I'm really glad that I got to read these books, and I'm really glad that I met her. And I'm actually going to be reading more Leigh Bardugo over the next couple of months. And by the way, since Katherine Rundle came up, she's got a new one coming out, which I can't wait to read. So that'll be. That'll be a lot of fun, too.

Charlie Gibson (29:17)

So I'm sure you'll be on my case to read it. And I will, I will, I will. So now, Kate, I want to come back. You. You challenged me a couple of weeks ago to come up with the title of a bookstore or name of a bookstore if I were to open one. And I gave you four choices. My favorite was chapter, just plain chapter. And I. If you want to call it Chapter Books, you can, but just chapter would be on the. On the window. Which of the four did you like?

Kate (29:47)

Turn the page.

Charlie Gibson (29:48)

Ah, okay.

Kate (29:50)

I like that one. I also think you could call it Page Turners. I thought that would be a good mix of the name. I know you said I had to stick to your names, but I kept coming up with my own names in my head. I like page turners, too. I love the idea of always being able to open into a new world. I sort of like always reading, you know, what I read now I want to read something very different next. So I always think of it as turning the page into a new book.

Charlie Gibson (30:15)

I think that's terrific. Turn the page now. We have to buy a bookstore, and that's not going to happen anytime soon.

Leigh Bardugo (30:24)

You first, right?

Charlie Gibson (30:27)

Right. Anyway, I like Turn the Page. I think that's very good. Now I'm down to turn the page or chapter. Let's bring you up to date on the folks who make this podcast possible. And then a coda from Leigh Bardugo.

Kate (30:39)

The Book Case with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg, Arielle Chester at Good Morning America, and Josh Cohan from ABC Audio. Follow the bookcase wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to listen, rate and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have them linked in the episode description.

Leigh Bardugo (31:07)

I've mentioned this recently, but it's on my mind is there's a quote from Yeats and I can't remember the title of the poem. I think it's to a work whose friend who has come to nothing, but it's be secret and exalt because of all things known that is most difficult. And I think about that a lot because I think the time of letting something just be in your head, just be in your heart that just belongs to you before it belongs to the world has sort of ended and people are driven to put things out on social and immediately get feedback. Likes or dislikes? I guess you don't get dislikes but mean comments or whatever it is. And I worry for young artists who don't get the chance to develop their voices outside of that storm.

Charlie Gibson (31:52)

Yo, this is important man. My favorite Lululemon shorts, the ones you got me back in the day. I think they're called Pace breakers, the.

Leigh Bardugo (31:59)

One ones with all the pockets. I just got back from vacation and I left them in my hotel room and dude, I need to replace these shorts.

Kate (32:05)

I wear them like three times a week.

Leigh Bardugo (32:06)

Could you send me the link to where you got them?

Charlie Gibson (32:08)

Oh, also, my birthday is coming up soon, so. Anyways, thanks bro. Talk soon.

Leigh Bardugo (32:12)

Looking for Your newest Go To's Lululemon what's New gear drops on Tuesdays. Every Tuesday head to lululemon.com to shop what's New gear.