The Book Case – Leigh Bardugo Makes Magic

Podcast: The Book Case
Hosts: Charlie Gibson, Kate Gibson
Guest: Leigh Bardugo
Date: September 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of The Book Case dives into the world of fantasy fiction with bestselling author Leigh Bardugo, best known for her Six of Crows duology. The hosts—a father and daughter team—explore the legacy, craft, and appeal of Bardugo’s work, with a focus on making the case for fantasy novels to even the most hesitant readers. The conversation covers the genesis of Six of Crows, the nuances of world-building, the challenges facing fantasy writers, and the timeless pleasures of immersive storytelling.

Main Themes & Purpose

• Demystifying Fantasy: Kate encourages her father, and by extension the audience, to embrace the fantasy genre, emphasizing its depth, diversity, and literary qualities.
• The Creation of Six of Crows: Leigh Bardugo shares the origin story of her iconic heist duology, delving into her process of combining character, plot, and world-building.
• The Writer’s Craft: A detailed exchange about how Bardugo approaches character development, outlining, world-building, and revision.
• The Reader’s Experience: The hosts and guest reflect on what makes fantasy sometimes daunting for newcomers, and how the best writers invite readers into strange worlds.
• The Enduring Appeal of Books: Through rapid-fire questions, Bardugo discusses her inspirations, guilt over unread classics, and the deep satisfaction of comforting readers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Evolution and Appeal of Fantasy (00:49–03:22)

• Modern Popularity:

  • Kate highlights the expansion of fantasy into numerous subgenres (“romantasy,” “dark fantasy”), making the genre a major bookstore presence.
  • “Fantasy now has a numerous number of sub genres. … It was kind of hard for you to get to read them.” [01:15, Kate]

• Overcoming Hesitation:

  • Charlie explains his challenges with fantasy: struggling with invented worlds and terminology.
  • “I have to keep little notes to know exactly where I am. … there's a difference. They sort of drop you into this world and you have to sort of suspend reality and go with them for a while.” [02:18, Charlie Gibson]
  • Kate says Six of Crows blends crime/heist tropes for crossover appeal.

The Birth of Six of Crows and Writing Process (04:12–11:33)

• Anniversary & New Editions:

  • Leigh Bardugo is celebrating the 10th anniversary with a new “Dregs” edition featuring new art and a book tour. [04:36]

• Where It All Began:

  • Bardugo’s inspiration came from heist films (like “Ocean’s Eleven”) combined with character sketches she’d long been developing.
  • “I always start with the idea that something will just be a romp. … And then when I start to explore the stories, that’s where the kind of depth and big questions come in.” [05:26, Leigh Bardugo]

• Character-first or Plot-first?:

  • Bardugo works from archetypes (the thief, the hunted magic user), but finds the depth in later drafts.
  • “My characters actually really start as archetypes… Discovering them, their backstories, the way they interact, that is the pleasure of creation for me.” [08:12–08:47, Leigh Bardugo]

• The Iterative Process:

  • Bardugo’s initial zero draft was 30,000 words, final version more than 130,000 words.
  • “The thing I’ve learned is to lean into that discomfort. When you are doing something bigger and better and more challenging, it is not gonna be comfortable. … I turn toward them.” [09:33, Leigh Bardugo]

• Outlining vs. Discovery:

  • Major plot beats are planned, but emotional depth and connections surface during revisions.
  • “If you want that fight scene to be meaningful, it can’t just be choreography, right? Every step of that heist has to present a challenge for these characters.” [10:25, Leigh Bardugo]

World-Building: Lessons for All Writers (14:23–16:34)

• More Than Magic:
  • Bardugo insists that all fiction requires world-building—not just fantasy and sci-fi.
  • “No world building exists in every book we read. ... That’s your job to establish sense of power and sense of place.” [14:23, Leigh Bardugo]
• Layering & Realism:
  • Effective world-building is done iteratively, often as real-world research deepens the fictional world.

Onboarding Reluctant Readers (16:21–18:49)

• Dropping the Reader In:
  • Fantasy often immerses readers instantly in new worlds, which can be disorienting.
  • Bardugo advises trust is key—too much lore without payoff breaks that trust.
  • “If you read the first chapter of Dune, Dune is going to throw 25 terms at you in the first 25 pages. … The trust starts to break if you get to the middle of that book and they’re still introducing new concepts to you.” [17:41, Leigh Bardugo]
  • Personal storytelling trumps didactic world explanations for early reader investment.

Fantasy vs. Science Fiction & The Appeal of Genre Blending (18:49–20:13)

• Blurring Boundaries:
  • Bardugo values genres that resist easy classification, citing Gideon the Ninth as an example of exciting genre overlap.
  • “To me, the most exciting places are the places where genre blurs … It’s almost as if surprise has become a scary thing to us when we read. And to me, that is the greatest pleasure.” [19:21, Leigh Bardugo]

Rapid Fire Q&A with Leigh Bardugo (23:17–27:06)

• On Becoming a Writer:

  • Bardugo started storytelling as a child; didn’t believe writing could pay bills until selling her sixth book.
  • “There's. There was that feeling of, yeah, I made it to the party, but someone's going to—The bouncer’s gonna find me and throw me out any minute now.” [23:17, Leigh Bardugo]

• Magical World She’d Live In:

  • Holly Black’s Elfhame from The Cruel Prince—although she quips, “I would die there probably within, you know, two hours, but I would have a great two hours and I would wear something fabulous.” [23:58, Leigh Bardugo]

• Book She Feels Guilty for Not Reading:

  • Lord of the Rings. “Oh, I tried. I didn’t like it. ... There’s like a secret club of... people who have won Hugos who are not Lord of the Rings fans.” [24:38, Leigh Bardugo]

• Greatest Satisfaction as a Writer:

  • Knowing one of her books is a “comfort book” to readers—a form of solace just as she once needed. [25:33, Leigh Bardugo]

• Most Reread Book:

  • Agatha Christie’s novels, though she can’t single one out.

• Retirement from Writing?:

  • “I would never retire from writing books. I would retire from social media. I would retire from promoting. … But writing, that’s the thing that keeps me steady.” [26:10, Leigh Bardugo]

• Common Fantasy Writer Pitfall:

  • Overinvesting in world-building instead of actually writing. All writers, even the pros, fear and struggle with the first draft. [26:36, Leigh Bardugo]

Reflections on the Reader Experience (27:15–29:17)

• Charlie & Kate on Reading Fantasy:

  • Kate likens reading fantasy to “buying a ticket on a roller coaster”—trusting the writer is key.
  • She points out the prevalence of violence in some fantasy subgenres, but praises Bardugo’s balance of quality, dialogue, atmosphere, and character.

• Accessibility for Newcomers:

  • Charlie admits to using the included glossary to keep track of names and terms, but asserts that the effort pays off: “Once you get into it and once you know who’s who… then it flows.” [28:30, Charlie Gibson]

Writer’s Wisdom & A Closing Thought (31:07)

• On Secrecy and Creation:
  • Bardugo invokes Yeats’ advice to keep some work private, regretting that social media makes it hard for young artists to develop their voices in solitude.
  • “I worry for young artists who don’t get the chance to develop their voices outside of that storm.” [31:07, Leigh Bardugo]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Developing Characters:

  • “There’s a bunch of characters waiting in the wing. … And then I got this idea for a kind of magical heist, and I thought, Oh, of course. These characters have been waiting to join this crew.” [05:26, Leigh Bardugo]

• On First Drafts:

  • “For me, the most difficult part of writing is the first draft. I love revising.” [09:33, Leigh Bardugo]

• On Literary World-Building:

  • “If you’re just throwing nonsense at your reader, they’re going to check out. ... You know when you’re in the hands of somebody who really knows the world and knows what’s happening off the page.” [14:23, Leigh Bardugo]

• On Trust in Fantasy:

  • “The author then has to deserve that trust. If you get to the middle of that book and they’re still introducing new concepts to you… that trust starts to break.” [17:41, Leigh Bardugo]

• On the Comfort of Books:

  • “Hearing that one of my books is a comfort book… is pretty powerful for me.” [25:33, Leigh Bardugo]

Key Timestamps by Segment

• 00:49–03:22 | The leap into fantasy—preconceptions and hesitations
• 04:36–05:26 | Anniversary publication and genesis of Six of Crows
• 08:12–10:16 | Outlining, drafting, and character development
• 14:23–16:34 | World-building—exploding the myth that it’s genre-specific
• 17:41–18:49 | Trust and onboarding the fantasy reader
• 19:21–20:13 | Genre boundaries and reader expectations
• 23:17–27:06 | Rapid-fire Q&A—writer origin story, favorite worlds, and advice
• 31:07 | Final reflection on the creative process and protecting young artists

Takeaways for New and Seasoned Readers

• Fantasy offers profound literary pleasures—from vivid world-building to dramatic twists, as well as insight into character and society.
• World-building is universal. Every book must create a believable sense of place and power, fantasy or not.
• Writers should embrace discomfort. The greatest projects begin by intimidating or scaring the writer.
• Readers must trust the journey. Letting oneself be immersed in a new world is the ticket to fantasy’s deepest joys.
• Creativity needs privacy. Not everything has to be instantly shared—great art sometimes grows best in secret.

For fans and skeptics alike, this episode lifts the curtain on both the craft and accessibility of contemporary fantasy, showing that the journey is as rewarding as the destination—and there are always new worlds waiting to be explored.