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- [00:01]
A
Experience a membership that backs what you're building with American Express Business Platinum. Get 2 times Membership Rewards points per dollar on eligible purchases in key business categories, as well as on each eligible purchase of $5,000 or more on up to $2 million in eligible purchases per calendar year. American Express Business Platinum. There's nothing like it. Terms apply. Learn more@americanexpress.com Business Platinum.
- [00:37]
B
Well, you hear the plunkety plunk music, which I have to say, like, we picked out the plunkity plunk music like, what, three years ago? I still love it. I still love it.
- [00:45]
C
Four years ago.
- [00:45]
B
Yes, four years ago. Yeah, I still love it. And I hope you at home do too. You listen to the plunkety plunk and you start your car or you start your morning or you're folding your laundry or whatever you're doing while you're listening to us. Whatever you're doing. Be welcome. I am the Kate of the Kate and Charlie.
- [01:01]
C
And I'm Charlie Gibson, the Bookcase with Kate and Charlie. We have a book this week with an awkward title, I think, but there's nothing awkward about the book. Hart the Lover is the name of the book. Lily King is the author. And it's both a sweet story and a sad story. It's really about your first love and how that never leaves you. Even if your life moves on or if it doesn't, that love sticks with you.
- [01:29]
B
Do you have one?
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C
Sure. And no.
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B
And no, I'm not going to discuss it with you.
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C
That's not. We didn't talk about this, Catherine.
- [01:42]
B
Yes, I know he's listening to this with my mother. If I know, if I know him at all, he's listening to this future episode with my mother. So we will spare my mother. But I had like two, and I still think of them very fondly.
- [01:54]
C
Sure, yeah, absolutely. And wish them well. And. But sometimes, as this book points out, somebody doesn't move on. Somebody really doesn't move on. Anyway, we asked Lily King to give us a very brief precis about what the novel entails.
- [02:12]
D
Heart the Lover is really about that first love that you don't marry that first love that you love for your whole life, but in a changed form and, and the process of doing that and the tenacity of that love.
- [02:30]
B
And you're right, it's, it's, it's not just about the affection you feel for those first loves, but it's about the fact that maybe just because you let go of that person doesn't mean they let go of you.
- [02:41]
D
Of you And I. I want to.
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B
Just mention if you are tempted to read this book, first of all, Heart the Lover is a slightly awkward title, but it's how somebody signs their heart, comma, the lover.
- [02:51]
C
Right.
- [02:52]
B
And. And I just want to say one of the things that I think is so incredible about this book is the amount she manages to push into such a small space. This is an epic love story. It is a story of loves lost. It is a story of paths not chosen. And yet it is less than 250 pages. That's amazing to me that somebody can fit so much emotion, feeling, and I don't know, and reality into that sparing of a package. And you guys, it's so worth it.
- [03:23]
C
Yeah. And as. And as we talked to Lilly King, I kept thinking this. This woman really has heart. She has heart and she writes it so well and she conveys it so well. Now she wrote another book which is, I suppose you could say, in some respects, is a companion to this book. Writers and Lovers is the other book. If you haven't read it, don't. Because some of the surprises of Heart the Lover will not be surprises to you. If you've read that book, read that book afterward, which is what I'm going to do because I had not read it when I read Hart the Lover. But at the base of the book is a love triangle. She gets involved with two fellow students of hers when she's in school. They are very bright. She's attracted to them by their intelligence. You see intelligence in all three of them. And I won't go any further in terms of talking about the love triangle, but it is the central part of the book. Her life may move on. There's three parts to the book. They're very distinct parts in different parts of her life. Some of them before what happens in Rights and Lovers, the other book, and some of it after. So, as I say, it's better not to have read Rights and Lovers. I think you need some of the surprises in this book to gladden your heart. In some ways it's sad, but it also left me very uplifted about that lasting impact of first loves.
- [04:40]
B
I think that this book could really have been maudlin. There could have been a lot of. There could have been a lot of spiraling in this book. And it's not. It's really beautiful and lovely. So let's get to the conversation. Cause my dad can't help to synopsize the plot. Even though the author synopsizes the plot, he can't help himself. So anyway, Our conversation with the great Lily King.
- [05:06]
C
Lily King, it is such a pleasure to have you in the bookcase heart. The Lover is the book. Let me start with a broader question. What themes, when you started, did you want to make clear in this book?
- [05:19]
D
I don't often start with themes. I start with a situation and a couple of characters, and then I see what they say and I kind of go from there. And I'm sort of really, for the first draft, I'm just following them along and finding out who they are and what the real tensions are. For sure, this is a love story. And the theme is very much love and the different forms of love that. That, you know, a relationship can take over the course of 30 years, which is. Which is what the novel spans. And loss, of course, and rejection and deep, deep connection, even when you fall completely out of touch for 21 years.
- [06:06]
B
So what was the first situation and who were the initial characters? What was the seed that started it for you? For Hart, the Lover?
- [06:13]
D
Well, it was really. Ann Patchett, dear friend of mine, sent me her manuscript of Tom Lake. I was writing another novel, a political murder mystery. Got 90 pages in. I didn't see a way through. I didn't care about any of the characters anymore. She sent me her book. I read six pages. I mean, I love that book. I read the whole thing. But the first six pages, I just thought, she is having fun, and I want to have fun. So I flipped to the back of that notebook that I was writing my political murder mystery in. And I just started writing these. These three characters in a classroom in college. And I immediately knew where we would go. I knew kind of emotionally the trajectory that I wanted this narrator to take. And I knew the last part and where we would all end up 30 years later. I didn't know how we were going to get there. And so as I write, I take notes in the back of a notebook and I kind of get a few milestones up ahead that I'm sort of aiming toward. And then I go there, and I go there and I go there, and that's sort of how I write.
- [07:20]
B
Your protagonist, Jordan, is a writer, and this book is from her perspective. But I was wondering, and I was left wondering at the end. Is Heart the Lover supposed to be a published book that she has written, or is it supposed to be a diary?
- [07:34]
D
That's such a good question. I haven't gotten that question. And I honestly. I guess I think of it as a communication from her to him. You know, she is addressed. She addresses him at the beginning, she addresses him for the whole second section. And then there's another part where she also says, you. You know, you. And I feel like it's just her communicating to him. And I don't think of it as something that Jordan actually will publish in her world.
- [08:08]
C
You say right on the first page. It's a very short little thing not identified as a prologue or any kind of a frontispiece. But you say you knew I'd write a book about you someday. You said once that I'd dredge up the whole hit parade minus you. I'll never know how you'd tell it for me. It begins here, like this.
- [08:27]
D
I kind of think I maybe of more as a letter, you know, because it has an audience.
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C
Huh.
- [08:33]
D
But I really struggled with that little section. I came up with it maybe after I had 20 or 30 pages, something like that, really. And I didn't know what to do with it. And when I first handed the book into my editor, she didn't even see that because I. It just seemed like I didn't. I don't know, I couldn't figure out. Sometimes it would go on for two paragraphs, and then I'd shorten it up again. And I really struggled with it. Then I was like, okay, this is one of those kill your darlings moments. Like, I'm clearly attached. It doesn't belong in the book. Whack, whack. You know, off it goes. And then when I did a next draft for my editor, I just felt like I better show it to her. It's missing somehow. And. And. And so I just tossed it in there, and she just went crazy. She went crazy for it, you know, so that was such a relief.
- [09:23]
B
Kill your darlings and on writings talks about, you gotta. Every. Anything you feel precious about has to go. It feels odd to talk to an author about the length of their book, but frankly, it's a distinct characteristic, I feel like. And that's one of the things my father and I talked about, was how lean this book was, how compact the use of negative space. The things you don't learn about the characters and the moments that you do hit, the sort of rich photographs you paint and what you don't talk about at all.
- [09:52]
D
I had very little confidence in this book as I was writing it, and I wasn't really sure it was gonna make it. And I remember my friend, the writer Deborah Spark, saying to me years ago that she had a friend who said, I've decided. This is my minor book. And so I definitely had that Thought, like, this is my minor book. This is small book. Minor books are small. Minor books are not, you know, 400 pages. And so that's kind of how I got through it. Like, this doesn't have to be very long. It doesn't have to be very long. It's okay to, you know, with what you have. And I just. I had the idea that it was a short book from the very beginning, I think, because I knew what was coming in the third part, and I knew that was gonna be hard to write, and I was gonna carry around a lot of heavy, heavy feelings while I was writing it. And I think the only way I could think about doing it is if it was gonna be short.
- [10:49]
C
Huh.
- [10:50]
B
Okay, so I wanna go back to something you just said before I ask about how you did it, which is, you said for a long time you didn't have confidence in this book. Was there a moment that you were writing where you were like, yes, now I have some confidence in this book. It's gone from minor to major.
- [11:05]
D
I don't know. Jury's out on the major bit. But I. It was 12 days before I handed in the final, final draft because really, I was really, really struggling with that third section. What is now the third section. It was the second section. There was no middle section. And I, I, I kept on trying to increase the tension, increase the tension, and it just kept falling flat. It just wasn't working. And then 12 days before my final, final draft was due, and, you know, I had the pub schedule like it was. It was happening. And I had been paid, you know, for the first quarter of it. And so, like, I had to make this work. And I flopped on the couch and I said to my husband, I can't do it. I just can't. I can't. No matter how many times I write this, it just doesn't work. And he's like, he's. He says something that he has told me that he had told me for the past year from a book called Plot and Structure by a screenplay writer about kind of tricks to making scenes tighter. And I was like, oh, God. You know, he's like, you. She needs a secret. She needs to come into that last section with a secret. And I had been just. Every time he said that, I was like, she has no secret. She has no secret. Stop saying that. And then this time, I was so desperate. I was like, fine. And I came in here to my study, and I just opened up the last page of the first section, and I changed, like, five lines and I created the Secret.
- [12:31]
C
Oh.
- [12:32]
D
And then I had to. I had 12 days to write the whole. I mean, to. To weave in the Secret through the entire book. You know, the Secret is, like, heavy. And, you know, all I had to do all of that. And that was the most exhilarating writing I think I've ever done in my life, really. Just.
- [12:48]
B
Just.
- [12:48]
D
I had so little time, and I knew I was on the right track, and I knew I was gonna solve a problem, and I was just. Just on fire. And it felt fantastic. And I never have that feeling.
- [13:01]
B
I wanna go back to the length. Cause, again, I always think of, you know, great saga love stories as, like. You know, I've been raised on the Gone with the Wind era, and I'm a Stephen King reader, so I'm fascinated by the length. And so I wanted to know, when you handed in the first draft of this novel, was it longer or shorter? Did you build or did you edit?
- [13:20]
D
I built because you wrote, I always build. I never. I always have to build. I always say, too little.
- [13:26]
C
Lily, if you'd left out that middle section, it really would have been short.
- [13:31]
D
No, it was barely 200 pages, I think, when I first handed it in.
- [13:35]
B
Really?
- [13:36]
E
Yeah.
- [13:37]
D
I have a horror of padding, of boring the reader. I cannot bear books that give me too much information, that tell me stuff I already know, or that show me their research that feels researched in some way, even if it's just a restaurant or a, you know, a hike. And my problem is that I. That I'm too much. I write too much in shorthand, and that maybe sometimes I expect too much of the reader. And then I have other readers who tell me, you know, I mean, really smart readers who tell me what they. What. What more they need.
- [14:17]
C
One of the things that I've come to appreciate in the four years that we've been doing this podcast is how many authors create characters who are themselves writers. And I always feel that perhaps that the novel's author is projecting his or her own feelings about the philosophy of writing. And there's one sentence in the book that Katie and I both noted. I started to understand the power of fiction, the reason that we make things up. Expand on that a little bit for me, would you?
- [14:48]
D
Certainly. To protect us and to process and all those sorts of things in that case, in the book for Jordan, she has finally gotten a writing teacher in college who makes sense to her and starts to kind of unlock the mysteries of writing fiction. And one of the things that she figures out is that she can take things from her own life, like kind of emotionally intense situations or feelings and put them in a fictional context that intensifies and kind of crystallizes the emotion for the reader in a way that straight autobiography wouldn't do.
- [15:38]
B
Your answer leads me to my next question, which is another line that struck me in the book was, if there's any place I can point to where my writing life actually began, it is here with Dr. Felsky on Thursdays at 1:00pm do you have a place and a time like that for you? Is there a time that you can point to in your life where you're like, that's when I became a writer.
- [15:57]
D
Yes. 10th grade, we'd. We'd had to write a short story for our just regular 10th grade English class. And my teacher, Mr. Paulus, Tony Paulus, handed back my short story and it was the highest grade I'd ever gotten, I think, in high school so far. And he said, I teach a creative writing class in the spring of junior and senior years, possibly the fall, I can't quite remember fall, I think, and. And I want you to take it. And that was it. I mean, I. I was like, okay. I just waited, waited, waited for junior year to come around so I could start taking creative writing because I knew it was the only thing I wanted to do. Even though I had written one poem in ninth grade and one short story in tenth, I already knew.
- [16:44]
C
You know how you can remember exactly when and where you were when you read certain books? A great novel, a truly great one, not only captures a particularly a particular fictional experience, it alters and intensifies the way you experience your own life while you're reading it, and it preserves it like a time capsule? Was there some book that did that for you, that thought, this can really be an expanding experience in my life and in the life perhaps of the reader.
- [17:10]
D
Oh, so many books, so many books have done that. I mean, one is referenced in there Independent People by Haldor Laxness, that whenever I pick that book up, I can remember exactly, you know, where I read it, how I read it, everything. War and Peace. So, so many books. The Transit of Venus by Shirley Hazzard. The Vulnerables by Sigrid Nunes is a newer book that I had that experience where I just start thinking like the narrator. So many, I mean, most things by Liz Strout. My, probably my very favorite is My name is Lucy Barton. Amazing book. Just amazing book. So many, many, many Faulkner. I mean, he was so big for me in college and I was in the south and I felt very influenced and sort of full of his words and you know, my experience in the south was definitely affected by him and his writing.
- [18:10]
C
Lily King, thank you very much for joining us. Heart the Lover is the Book. It's a lovely read and it is very evocative. My lord. I thought about my past and and.
- [18:23]
B
I don't want to know. I don't want to know.
- [18:27]
D
That's really funny.
- [18:28]
C
So Lily King, we'd ask you to stand by. We've got some rapid fire questions for you.
- [18:39]
A
Learning through play starts with Lego Duplo. With Lego Duplo, toddlers can develop real life skills while having fun with colorful bricks made just for them. Large, easy to grip and safe to explore. When children express themselves with Lego Duplo they build patience, problem solving and empathy. See your child learn personal perseverance and self expression with everything they imagine and create. Visit lego.com preschool to learn more. By the time I hit my 50s, I'd learned a few things like how family is precious, work can always wait, and 99% of people over 50 already have the virus that causes shingles. Not everyone at risk will develop it, but I did.
- [19:26]
C
Did.
- [19:27]
A
The painful blistering rash disrupted my life for weeks. Don't learn about your shingles risk the hard way. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist today. Sponsored by gsk. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.
- [20:04]
B
Rapid fire questions for Lilly King, Lesser known book you recommend to everyone.
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D
Loved and missed by Susie Boit.
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C
Dickens or Shakespeare?
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D
Shakespeare.
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C
Sinatra or Elvis?
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D
Elvis.
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B
What do you use as a bookmark?
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D
The corner of a page.
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C
Who makes you laugh?
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D
My husband.
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B
How many pages do you give a book you know you're not liking?
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D
15 to 20.
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C
Favorite artist, painter, sculptor?
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D
What two. Matisse. And my mother in law, Harriet Moore Ballard who died two years ago, who is incredibly talented and we have her paintings all over our house.
- [20:43]
B
Ooh. Cause it would be really hard to have a mother in law who was an artist but you didn't like their art. That'd be really hard because then it'd be like look what I gave you for your wedding. And you're like I know just where to put this book. You feel like you should have read but didn't or you haven't yet.
- [20:59]
D
Crime and Punishment. I'm so embarrassed to say that.
- [21:01]
B
Don't be. I listened to it while I was expressing for my son. That was how I did it. Like, I was. Like, when I was breastfeeding my daughter, I listened to Moby Dick because I knew I probably wasn't going to read it when I was breastfeeding my son. It was Crime and Punishment because I knew I probably wasn't gonna read it, and I knew I was a completely captive audience. I love that.
- [21:22]
D
That was great.
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C
Are you an introvert or an extrovert?
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D
Introvert.
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C
Hmm. Do you think that's true of many novelists?
- [21:30]
D
Yes, I really do.
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B
I know it's a cliche question, but the best piece of advice you've ever.
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D
Received about writing it comes from a Nike ad. Just do it.
- [21:42]
C
Mine comes from an ad as well. It's Miller Time.
- [21:49]
B
And that's why there are so many great books with his name all over them, all over the great booksellers of this country, as we say. There's a lot packed into these. Less than 250 pages. And I have to say, even though it is an epic love story with lots of emotion packed in, both good and bad, I still managed to finish the book in 48 hours. Now, being the single mom of two kids, that's quite something about how much I wanted to put it down. I did not want to put it down. It's a really great read. Please pick it up.
- [22:24]
C
It is an awkward title to me. I kept having to remind myself of the title. So it's a very bright orange cover. You'll see it in your bookstore. Heart the Lover, Lily King. And I can promise you you'll enjoy the read and you will come away really touched, I think, by the characters that are involved. We got a bookstore. You should explain, Kate.
- [22:43]
B
I book the guests. Dad books the bookstores. And I've always thought that he has the slightly easier job. However, this is a great booking because he managed to get Dixon Books and its owner the day before they opened. So this is like Twas the Night Before Christmas for her. That's awesome. We've never talked to an independent bookstore the day before they opened. And actually we're recording. You don't know this, but we're recording on the day she actually opens. I'm trying to send her as much good juju as I possibly can.
- [23:11]
C
It's Dixon Books. It's in Natchez, Mississippi. The owner, one of the owners, is Jennifer Boone. It is a family affair. As we talked, people were downstairs hammering together the bookshelves, getting the books on the shelves, people putting the cash register in place, et cetera, et cetera. And I boy, I hope they succeed. Here's our conversation with Jennifer Boone. Jennifer Boone, We Talk on October 10th. You're opening your store tomorrow. A debut, an unveiling. Are you nervous?
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E
I am. I am nervous. I just keep telling myself, you know, I was in healthcare for 30 years and with cancer patients, so I keep telling myself it's just books. But then again, it's just books, you know, they're big, they're wonderful. But, you know, if you have the books, you have a way for people to come in and see them and buy them. You're ready. You know, this is very exciting.
- [24:14]
B
Our listeners at home. This is the first time we've ever talked to an independent bookstore. The day before opening, it's like twas the night before Christmas, and all through the house, everybody was labeling the books. Even, even the mouse says, so, Jennifer, tell me what the day before consists of. What activities are you going through right now to get open for tomorrow?
- [24:33]
E
Well, I will just give you a picture of what it looks like downstairs. There are ladders everywhere. There are lighting fixtures being put in. There are people folding T shirts and putting them on shelves. There are people shelving books. There are IT guys. There are people planting moms out front. I mean, we have it all at the bookstore today.
- [25:00]
C
How long was it, Jennifer, from the idea, gee, I think I'd like to do this to tomorrow?
- [25:06]
E
I would say 10 or more years, but more seriously, probably since April. I think April is when I was like, I'm either gonna do this or I'm gonna keep dreaming about it. And so I just started putting one foot forward, moving one step towards. And I just prayed and said, if this is the direction we're going in, let me know. And I kept getting pulled forward. So here we are.
- [25:36]
B
How did you find the space that you're in? And tell me about the space that you're in and the shape that it was in when you found it.
- [25:43]
E
The building is actually it was built in the 1870s and it housed the second oldest business in Natchez, which was called Dixon's. And so the building has been here quite a while, but the bookstore is a new venture.
- [26:02]
C
So take me through that conversation you had with yourself in April. And you've decided, okay, I'm going to do it.
- [26:09]
E
You know, the country is complicated right now, and I felt a need to do something, and I just went through the thought process and thought that you Know, I've mentioned before, like, a third space is just one of those. It's a healing place. It's a place where lay down your arms and come in the bookstore and have a cup of coffee and let's read some books and have some gentle conversation. And once that sort of concept came into mind, I just started figuring out how to open a bookstore. And there is actually a bookstore school that you can go to. It's called Paz and Associates, and it's a husband and wife in Florida. And you can go to book school, bookstore school. You can get a bookstore manual, and they have done a lot of the hard work for you, and you can start your bookstore from there. So that's what we did.
- [27:12]
C
I suspect you had to do due diligence. You had to take a look at that store on Main street in downtown Natchez and see, is there a market for what we want to do?
- [27:23]
D
Did you do that?
- [27:24]
E
I did. There were two, I believe, two to three previous bookstores here in Natchez. So I reached out to those people and sort of asked them, you know, what their experience was, what worked, what didn't work. And from that, you know, I learned some things that, that. That they said they would have done if they had a second chance to do it. So that was very helpful. And every person I've reached out to, whether it's a former bookstore owner, a current bookstore owner, the bookseller community has just been amazing and so helpful.
- [28:03]
B
So Jennifer Boone goes to sleep tonight, assuming that you sleep tonight, and she dreams of the best bookstore opening ever. What does that dream look like? What is tomorrow ideally for you?
- [28:14]
E
I think it just looks like people who are excited to have the bookstore here, people coming in and looking around and seeing all the books and finding something that they connect with in there. I just. I want to see people's faces light up when they come in. And hopefully it's just sets the tone for it being a really. A really good, calm, happy place to be.
- [28:41]
C
Jennifer Boone, it's a pleasure to talk to you. It is Dixon Books. You can find it on Main street in Natchez, Mississippi. I hope everybody from the entire state, and even if you're in Alabama, you can come over and stop by. Dixon Books. Thank you for being with us.
- [29:01]
B
So we wish Jennifer Boone the best. Dixon Books. You gotta go check it out if you're in the area, because she's just opened. And my guess is she's got that enthusiastic new bookstore smile on every day. And I don't know, I'm just thinking about her today and hope she's having a wonderful time. She's it's a, it's the fulfillment of a lifelong dream and I hope it's everything she she thought it would be.
- [29:23]
C
I asked her for an email to let me know how the first week goes. We will report back in future podcasts. To let you know how Dixon Books in Natchez, Mississippi is faring in its first week, we'll bring you up to date on who makes this podcast possible. We do that every week and we will also have a coda of Final Thought from Lilly King.
- [29:42]
B
The book Case With Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg, Arielle Chester at Good Morning America, and Josh Cohan from ABC Audio. Follow the bookcase wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to listen, rate and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have them linked in the episode description.
- [30:11]
D
This is for all the writers listening to this. I think the most important thing is to get the critic out of the door before you start writing your first draft. You just, you don't need a critic, you don't need a judge. You just need to write what you write and absolutely do not evaluate it. Do not bring your cerebral self to it. You write from the gut, you don't write from your mind. And you'll bring the critic in later, but you don't need it now.
- [30:44]
F
I'm John Quinones. Vanessa Guillen, a 20 year old soldier, vanishes while on duty at an army base in Texas. Her family demands answers.
- [30:55]
A
How can she go missing on a military base?
- [30:57]
D
That's too ridiculous.
- [30:59]
F
The search goes on for months.
- [31:04]
C
Where is Vanessa?
- [31:06]
F
And a dark story starts to unfold.
- [31:09]
B
She told her family that she was.
- [31:12]
D
Being sexually harassed and wasn't reporting it out of fear of retribution and retaliation.
- [31:18]
F
What investigators finally uncover is horrifying. Find out how one soldier, a beloved sister and daughter ignited a movement and sparked a reckoning in the US Military. Listen to Vanished what Happened to Vanessa? A new series from ABC Audio in 2020. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.