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- [00:02]
Kate
Meet the computer you can talk to.
- [00:04]
Megha Majumdar
With Copilot on Windows.
- [00:05]
Kate
Working, creating and collaborating is as easy as talking. Got writer's block? Share your screen with Copilot Vision to help spark inspiration and use Copilot voice to have a conversation and brainstorm ideas. Or maybe you need some tech help with Copilot Vision.
- [00:19]
Megha Majumdar
Copilot sees what you see.
- [00:21]
Kate
Let Copilot talk you through step by step guidance so you can master new apps, games and skills faster. Try now@windows.com copilot. Welcome Book nerds on this wonderful Thanksgiving Day. We drop on a national holiday today. So I hope that you are sitting around the table, sitting around the turkey, sitting around whatever sound system on which you listen to the bookcase and that that is what you're doing right now. Happy Thanksgiving to all. And I'm Kate of the Kate and Charlie.
- [00:57]
Charlie Gibson
And I'm Charlie Gibson. We do wish you a happy Thanksgiving as you recount your bless on this Thanksgiving Day and it's so important that everybody do that. It is a wonderful time to reflect on your blessings. We hope you'll include the podcast the Bookcase with Kate and Charlie and your list of blessings. It is certainly one of ours and we hope it's one of yours. And you know, it's interesting, Kate, you've remarked often on it. You spend days preparing as we talk. You're about to go out and buy the turkey and buy the all the food, et cetera, and you work on it for for some period of time and then it's gone. It's gone in 30 minutes.
- [01:36]
Kate
You also use ingredients that you only use once a year. Like why the hell do I have celery salt? I don't know, but I use it at Thanksgiving. Why do I have ground allspice? I don't know, but I use it at Thanksgiving. So it's like the one year that you use all the ingredients in the back of the drawer that are probably from the 1970s, but they get their use and that's good.
- [01:56]
Charlie Gibson
And it's one of my favorite questions of people. When you think of cranberry sauce, do you think of the natural thing with those lumpy cranberries or do you think of it as having ridges? Does it come out of a can or is it freshly made? I'm of the canned variety. I was probably well into my adulthood before I realized that cranberry sauce did not have ridges necessarily. There were people who, who perish the thought ate homemade cranberry sauce. No, no, no. Why would you do that? That cranberry stuff from Ocean Store.
- [02:30]
Kate
I always thought that was Mom's magic that mom made sort of a centerpiece looking thing that could be sliced and cut and whatever. It took me a long time to realize that actually came from a can and that that wasn't a centerpiece that mom designed, that it was really just her satisfaction of you with the can.
- [02:47]
Charlie Gibson
And I think you, I think you need.
- [02:48]
Kate
You always had it there.
- [02:48]
Charlie Gibson
I think you need a second can because I don't think a turkey sandw without cranberry sauce on it.
- [02:55]
Kate
Okay, fine. I'll add a second can to my list. I'll add a second can to my list just for you, for your turkey sandwiches.
- [03:01]
Charlie Gibson
Thank you. Thank you.
- [03:02]
Kate
Thank you. You're welcome.
- [03:03]
Charlie Gibson
We have a wonderful book for you today. It's written by Megama Jumdar. Her name is. It was a finalist for the National Book Award. Didn't win. Would have been a worthy winner had it won, but as so many people say when they get nominated for an Oscar, it's just, just an honor to be nominated. She was in the final five and I think very worthily. Worthily, if that's a word, so.
- [03:29]
Kate
Oh God, that was terrible.
- [03:31]
Meagan Greene
Worthily.
- [03:31]
Charlie Gibson
We asked her, we asked her to give us a little pracy, a little starter as to what the book is about.
- [03:38]
Megha Majumdar
A Guardian and a Thief is a novel which is set in a near future Kolkata, India, which is my hometown. And in this near future city which is struggling with a food shortage and other effects of climate change, two families who are seeking to protect their own children come into conflict.
- [04:03]
Kate
I loved this book. I just loved this book. It's kind of hard to know. It's all about the gray area when you're trying to live in a world of black and white. It's all about the gray area. It's all about moral relativism. And what would you do to survive if survival was your only goal? Where do your morals go then? Which morals do you hold onto? Which ethics become most important to you? Or is it just do what you can to survive? And frankly, I think right now it's more prescient than ever. And she does it in a way. I really want to emphasize this because I think books about moral relativism probably fall into the trap often of being didactic. This is not a lecture book.
- [04:41]
Charlie Gibson
Oh, no.
- [04:41]
Kate
She just presents questions in a way that's beautifully written and allows the reader to answer those questions for themselves.
- [04:48]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah. It's two characters, two families, Ma and Boomba. Ma is the head of a family who is trying to get to the United States from India. And Boomba, you think at the beginning is the thief. But as Kate says, they. They're very nuanced characters and they are very complex. And it's a short book and she gets more into a couple of hundred pages than most people get in much longer books. It is really beautifully written. And she's a relatively new author. She's young. I think, as you'll sense as you hear our conversation with her, she's whip smart. Just. Just a very, very intelligent woman. I. I really, really enjoyed our conversation.
- [05:32]
Kate
Yeah, we think of everybody as young that should be established because we are old. So Everybody who's like 40 and under to us is like a. Is like a whippersnapper. But that being said, I really found this book beautiful. And in one book, she became an author that I would read just because they wrote it. That's how good this book is. I think it's an incredible journey. The writing is beautiful. It's got climate change in the novel, but it's not necessarily just about climate change. It really is about survival and what you would do to survive and what rules you would break to help your children survive.
- [06:05]
Charlie Gibson
Yep.
- [06:06]
Kate
And it's just beautifully written. I love this book. I was rooting for it for the National Book Award. I was really rooting for it.
- [06:12]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't recommend it more highly. A Guardian and a Thief. Mega Majumdar, our conversation. Megha Majumdar, it is such a pleasure to have you in the bookcase. A Guardian and a Thief is your new book. What was your first thought, your first thought that went through your head when you found out you were a finalist for the National Book Award?
- [06:38]
Megha Majumdar
Well, it was a very funny moment, Charlie, because, you know, I have. I have two children and the younger one is soon to be three months old. So the daily reality of my life is very much childcare, you know, and attending to the demands and needs of two little human beings. So when I found out about the National Book Award nomination, I think I was walking with him in the stroller. So the split in my brain was extreme and it was very grounding, you know, it was really beautiful. One thing that I'll say is that I think it is so remarkable and meaningful that a book which is set almost entirely in India is about Bengali people is up for the National Book Award here.
- [07:35]
Kate
What was the initial seed for you for A Guardian and a Thief? What got you started?
- [07:40]
Meagan Greene
What.
- [07:40]
Kate
What drew you to the computer or typewriter or legal pad that got you.
- [07:45]
Megha Majumdar
Started my hometown, Kolkata in India, the place where the novel is set. It's one of the cities in the world which is most severely affected by climate change. And reading about that, very strangely, I remembered I had memories of growing up there, which rang even truer. I remembered one day when I was a kid and my mom and I went to watch. Do you remember the movie Monsters Inc. Mm, sure. That Pixar movie that came out, and my mom and I went to watch that. And I remember it was an incredibly hot afternoon and my shoes were sticking to the tar that was melting on the street. And that came back to me as I was reading about the predictions of how hot Kolkata is going to get. There have already been a few hot days like that. There will be more hot days like that. Kolkata is predicted to endure more storms, more storms and more severe storms. And so I was reading about that, and, you know, imagine reading that stuff about your hometown. It's alarming and it's sorrowful, and you feel a little lost in the face of predictions like that. You think about the streets, you know, the people you know, the shops, you know, what's going to happen to all of them.
- [09:13]
Charlie Gibson
At the outset, the first few pages, the reader will have no trouble identifying who was the guardian and who was the thief. At the end of the book, it's an interesting question. Who is the guardian and who is the thief? Your thoughts will change as you go through this book in your mind, who's the guardian and who's the thief?
- [09:32]
Megha Majumdar
It's a great question. I realized that it wouldn't be very interesting. It wouldn't be very interesting. It wouldn't be truthful, if I wrote a book where there was a clear mother, who is this saintly good character, and then there's a thief who intrudes. And I felt that the more truthful thing would be to show how both of these main characters in the book have elements of guardians and elements of thieves in them. And that moral murkiness I find so interesting for fiction, because I think it's true. You know, who do you know who is wholly good and who do you know who is wholly bad? People are not like that. You know, we change in circumstances. We change depending on how comfortable and safe we feel or how threatened we feel. And I wanted to bring those moral questions into the book.
- [10:38]
Meagan Greene
Hmm.
- [10:38]
Charlie Gibson
I hope it doesn't scare people away. But to my mind, this is a book about moral relativism, about how do our morals intersect with the imperatives of our lives? What will we do when Those we love might become imperiled by things like climate change. Do we have the luxury of maintaining high moral standards when our family may not have enough to eat?
- [11:00]
Megha Majumdar
One of the things that I find so interesting is that we are making those calculations all the time. In my life, I am making choices about when I'm going to heed my ethics and when I'm going to turn away from them. I remember reading an article several years ago about shrimp farming in Southeast Asia and how a lot of US Shrimp comes from Southeast Asia. And the conditions under which people are made to work on those boats were horrific. They often worked without pay. They were in deep debt. And that's. That's the shrimp that we're getting in this country. So I make a choice when I buy that shrimp, just to give you a very ordinary, everyday example, I make a choice to put that out of my mind. I feel, well, I am just a tiny part of this vast system. There is really nothing I can do. But I do choose to participate in this system, and I do allow that feeling of distance. I know that those people are real, but I am very far away from them. And I allow that distance to impose on what I believe are my ethics. And I make choices like that all the time. You know, I make choices that serve my family, that are convenient for me, that enable me to have a comfortable and delicious dinner. I make those choices all the time. So what am I doing? I am putting myself above those people who are working in horrific conditions, far away from their own family. And I. I privilege myself not because I am thinking through the ethics very carefully, but because I am paying attention to convenience and comfort. And I think these things are going to come up.
- [12:56]
Charlie Gibson
I find that very consistent with your saying that the thoughts about this book first came into your mind when you had young children, when you first became a mother. Because you do realize at that point. I remember my life changed when I walked into the delivery room and saw my first child, Kate's older sister. And I thought, I would do anything for that child. Whatever it took, I would do. I owe it everything. It owes me nothing. Does that put my morals in question? Sure. You know, if that child is imperiled in any way, I'm going to do what I have to do.
- [13:33]
Megha Majumdar
I'm getting chills listening to you. You're so right about that moment of becoming a parent and comprehending that you will do anything and you will go to a kind of frightening place to protect this child. And that's what I wanted to explore, is that People in a time of crisis, they're not bad people, but, you know, we all think of ourselves as good and decent people, but what will we do for the people that we love? What will we do for our children when our circumstances are completely different?
- [14:12]
Meagan Greene
Hmm.
- [14:13]
Kate
How do you feel like your experience and your study of cultural anthropology shaped the way that you wrote this book?
- [14:21]
Megha Majumdar
That's a great. Did you study anthropology as well?
- [14:25]
Meagan Greene
A little.
- [14:26]
Kate
Not to your extent and certainly not at Harvard, but yes, I did.
- [14:30]
Megha Majumdar
Well, you know that anthropology is all about going out into the world, listening to the stories of other people and holding two things in mind. One is you want to try really hard to understand the fullness and complexity of another person's life. And two, you want to acknowledge that you can never fully understand another person's life. So that balance of effort and listening and humility, you know, really holding in your heart the truth that I will never really be able to understand another person, their spirit, their soul, their mind, their life, I will never get there. So I think that is amazing training for a fiction writer because fiction is so much about trying to conjure people who are complex, who hold different truths in balance, and having the humility to understand that my position in the world is a kind of limit upon what I can really understand. So anthropology, for anybody who wants to write fiction or think deeply about the world in an artistic and generous way, anthropology, there's nothing like it. It's very close to journalism, I would say, you know, it's very close to a kind of very immersive, long term journalism.
- [16:04]
Charlie Gibson
Katie, as we've done, this podcast over the last four years has introduced me to a term that I had never heard before, which is the concept of sonder. S O N D E R And Kate, you should explain to it because she called me up and she said, dad, there is such a large element of sonder in this book that she writes.
- [16:24]
Kate
Yeah, I first read about it in Kaveh Akbar's Martyr, but I had really been thinking about the concept a lot. I am a. A member of aa, so yeah, I just outed myself. But we talk a lot about emotional sobriety and I think sonder really plays into that for me. The realization that everybody in the world is having a 360 degree life experience of which I am a tiny, tiny, tiny part. And it is a great way to live. But as you say, it's also difficult in this society because I want cheap blue jeans. Cheap blue jeans comes from I don't know where I want an ipod. I'VE read about circumstances of building ipods in China. So how do you hold onto those principles and still live your life? It's a difficult. It's all a matter of degrees.
- [17:11]
Megha Majumdar
I love that you bring up martyr. I loved that book so much.
- [17:15]
Kate
Great book, great book.
- [17:17]
Megha Majumdar
Amazing book. And it is so good because I think it does what perhaps all art wants to do, which is allow a confrontation with how limited our lives are and how painfully mortal we are. And to turn that confrontation not into something frightening or daunting, but into a kind of encouragement to live with meaning, to live with truthfulness. You know, to trim away everything that doesn't matter and to pay attention to what it means to be alive. What do we want to do with our time? What do we want to do with our resources? What kind of person do we want to be? That is maybe the question at the heart of all art.
- [18:13]
Meagan Greene
Hmm.
- [18:14]
Kate
So you have this day where your shoes stick to the pavement and then at that point, what happens? Do you sit down? Do you write an outline? Did MA instantly pop into your head when? What was the process for you? Did you write it chronologically?
- [18:28]
Megha Majumdar
You know, one other place where the book started was I love food. I love cooking, I love eating. And I was very interested in thinking about how climate change will affect agriculture and food. And I felt that I was reading a lot about water and rising sea levels, but not quite as much about how it will affect food. So I grew very interested in exploring that. I sat with the idea of a Kolkata in which food is starting to run out and people need to eat different things. And I landed on the idea of this is a completely different, you know, this is a failed plot that I am sharing with you. I had this idea of a child of 10 or 11 years old who would go looking for a rumored market and fetch food for her grandparents. And I tried to make this child character work. There were many reasons why this character simply did not work. One was I couldn't stay really close to a 10 or 11 year old and access the moral complexity that I was really interested in. And then while I was struggling with this plot, I had my older son and, you know, coming back to that moment, Charlie, my view completely changed. I became so interested in who is the mother of this child character, how does this food scarcity affect the mother and what will she do to protect her child. So that's when I found the current core of the book. And that's how I started writing the mother journeying through this world in a very different way. And from the mother. I started thinking about the thief and I realized that I needed to bring in this thief in a more complex way than I had first imagined.
- [20:32]
Charlie Gibson
He is Boomba and the mother is Ma. Just to put those names in people's heads, because they should be when they read it.
- [20:41]
Megha Majumdar
I think the question that I hope a reader stays with is, is exactly that, you know, who should I feel for who was in the right? And is there such a thing as being in the right in this book? What would I have done in such a situation? And that place of not being able to land on one answer, that place of continuing to think past the last page, I think that is such a beautiful thing that fiction can do. And I hope that this book brings a reader to that place because ultimately, you know, I might have my views, but the book really comes alive in a reader's mind, right? It really comes alive when a reader thinks, well, this is the character that I feel most close to. Or I think this act was justified and this other act was not justified. Or I felt horrified by this, and I could also see myself doing that.
- [21:51]
Kate
Most climate change books that I've read, when we're living in this sort of post climate change affected world, puts a in the year of 2075. Um, you consciously don't.
- [22:05]
Meagan Greene
Or.
- [22:05]
Kate
Or maybe un. Now I think it's conscious you don't put a year on when this is. So I mean, is that a question you wanted to leave the reader with is when will this happen? And do you. Because it's funny, I even questioned, why am I so anxious to have a year on this? Is it because I want to know that we can change it by the time this happens? Is it because I know it's not going to happen in my lifetime?
- [22:27]
Megha Majumdar
That's a great question. I think I definitely played in early drafts with pinning it down to a year and something about it always felt false. Perhaps because of the reason that you're pointing out, which is that it offers a way for the reader to flee a little bit, you know, to say, oh, this is too far, it's not going to happen to me, or, you know, we will turn in a different direction, we will not get there. So something about it felt a little false. And, you know, this is one of those questions of intuition. Anybody who makes things, you know that you can go to a certain point with logic and then you have to listen to your intuition. And my intuition was that pinning it down to a year wasn't working.
- [23:22]
Kate
You used a buzzword that we've been talking a little bit about lately on the show, which is world building. How did you feel like you had to build this world for your readers and especially American readers to whom you know, God love us, we should understand India better. But how did you feel that you had to world build when you wrote this novel?
- [23:41]
Megha Majumdar
A fascinating thing about world building for me is that I worked so hard to conjure this near future city whose past and present I know so well. And at the same time I realized that I would have to build this world and also suppress it within the novel. I couldn't allow the world building to overwhelm the story. And the story is so much about the people. And that's how we enter fiction, right? We enter fiction by feeling close to characters who seem to be real people to us. So what I found hard about the world building was having these details which remind a reader we're in the future. This is how it looks. And also allowing them to forget that world a little bit and be with the mother, the child, the grandfather. These characters who are, I hope, are very easy to stay close to.
- [24:51]
Charlie Gibson
You have such a rich career ahead of you. And I look so much forward to reading what you bring to us in the future. You have a gift. You have a gift. And how fortunate that you have it and that we get to experience it. Thank you for being with us.
- [25:05]
Megha Majumdar
That is so generous.
- [25:07]
Kate
Megha Majamdar, if you would stand by. We've got some rapid fire questions for you after this.
- [25:12]
Charlie Gibson
Foreign.
- [25:18]
Kate
From ABC News and Good morning America, I'm Lori Bergamotto. This brightly moment is brought to you by Macy's. Gifts for the holiday season can mean.
- [25:26]
Megha Majumdar
Something different for everyone. Whether it's the gift you wish for most but never dreamed of receiving.
- [25:31]
Kate
I'll still be happy if you give.
- [25:33]
Megha Majumdar
Me the rainbow treasure.
- [25:35]
Kate
Like this boy's shock and excitement at.
- [25:37]
Megha Majumdar
Finding an extra rare Pokemon card in.
- [25:40]
Kate
The pack Santa brought him for Christmas.
- [25:41]
Meagan Greene
Rainbow Sandra.
- [25:43]
Kate
Or maybe the gift isn't rare at all. It's a jar of pickles.
- [25:47]
Megha Majumdar
But it's something special just to you. Like this toddler who was ecstatic at unwrapping his very own jar of pickles. And then there's the really thoughtful gifts.
- [26:01]
Kate
Like this daughter wowing her mom with a replica of a Parisian vase that was broken.
- [26:05]
Megha Majumdar
You deserved it twice.
- [26:07]
Kate
Whether big or small, rare or common, the real gift is in the giving. This brightly moment has been brought to you by Macy's. Macy's. The most wonderful gifts start here.
- [26:18]
Megha Majumdar
We all love a legendary comeback and degree original Cool Rush is back and better than ever. Cool Rush isn't just a scent, it's a movement, a fan favorite that delivers bold, fresh vibes, vibes and all day sweat protection. Whether you have a man that spends hours in the gym, heads into the office early, or is just trying to stay fresh on a long day, Cool Rush has their back. Head to your local Walmart or Target and grab degree Cool Rush, the fan favorite scent from the world's number one antiperspirant brand Membership means more with American Express Business Gold. Earn four times Membership Rewards points in your top two eligible spending categories every.
- [26:56]
Meagan Greene
Month, including eligible U.S. advertising purchases in select media and U.S. purchases at restaurants.
- [27:02]
Charlie Gibson
Including takeout and delivery. What are you waiting for? Get the card that flexes with your spending every month. Terms and points cap apply.
- [27:11]
Meagan Greene
Learn more@americanexpress.com Business Gold AmEx Business Gold.
- [27:14]
Megha Majumdar
Card built for business by American Express.
- [27:25]
Kate
Rapid Fire Questions for Mega what is a book that you haven't read yet that you feel like you should have?
- [27:31]
Megha Majumdar
Moby Dick.
- [27:34]
Kate
It's amazing how often that one comes up.
- [27:36]
Charlie Gibson
Shakespeare or Dickens?
- [27:38]
Megha Majumdar
Dickens.
- [27:40]
Meagan Greene
Why?
- [27:40]
Megha Majumdar
I think Dickens was what I connected with when I read him as a child. Shakespeare. You know, this is. I really should not be saying this on a podcast, but I don't know that I have the fervent love for Shakespeare that many readers do.
- [27:57]
Kate
What do you use as a bookmark?
- [27:58]
Megha Majumdar
I have so many bookmarks and I use them and I'm very proud of it. You know, every time, especially every time you buy a book from a local bookstore, they tuck their beautiful bookmark in the book. So I have so many of those, and I now have a stack of those bookmarks in my bookshelf in a specific spot. So when I'm looking, instead of grabbing a receipt or, you know, trying to tuck a pen into my book or something like that, I know where the bookmarks are. I get them and I use them. They're beautiful.
- [28:28]
Meagan Greene
Wow.
- [28:28]
Kate
That's very organized for. For a mother, that's very, very organized.
- [28:33]
Charlie Gibson
You shop for books?
- [28:34]
Megha Majumdar
Yes.
- [28:34]
Charlie Gibson
You pay retail.
- [28:38]
Megha Majumdar
As we all should. As we all should. You know, years and years of somebody's art for under $30. It's a steal.
- [28:48]
Charlie Gibson
It is indeed. Favorite Bollywood movie.
- [28:51]
Megha Majumdar
Favorite Bollywood movie. I would have to say one of my childhood favorites, like Dilwale Dulhaniya Le Jaenge. Have you seen that one? It's so much fun. It's so much fun.
- [29:04]
Kate
I know it's a cliche question, but the best advice you've ever received about.
- [29:08]
Megha Majumdar
Writing Finish the draft. Finish it. There's nothing you can do with a partial book or half a book or 75% of the book. Finish the draft.
- [29:21]
Charlie Gibson
Most beautiful place to your mind in the United States.
- [29:25]
Megha Majumdar
Most beautiful place in the United States. You know, I went to Yosemite some years ago, and I remember seeing the Milky Way in the night sky, and that was a beautiful moment.
- [29:43]
Charlie Gibson
The most beautiful place to your mind.
- [29:46]
Megha Majumdar
In India, it would have to be Kolkata in the rains, when it rains really hard and it brings all the trees alive and everything is green and dripping and it just feels alive.
- [30:03]
Kate
Three writers that you will read just because they wrote it.
- [30:06]
Megha Majumdar
Oh, that's a great question. Three writers I will read just because they wrote it. I love this writer called Daniel Muinoddin. He had a short story collection a number of years ago called In Other Rooms, Other Wonders. And I just learned that he has a new novel coming out called this Is where the Serpent Lives. It's coming out in January, so I am absolutely going to read that because I loved his short stories. So that's Daniel Muinuddin. Who. Who else will I read? I love Jhumpa Lahiri. I have read everything she's ever written. I have read her, you know, early stories. I've read the novels. I've read the more recent work, which is set in Rome, and I just love her tracing of Emotional reality. And the third, I will say, is Amy Hempel. I think Amy Hempel is a legend. There is nobody who can write with as much compression and as much attention to both humor and sorrow as Amy Hempel.
- [31:22]
Charlie Gibson
Was there a book that made you a reader?
- [31:25]
Megha Majumdar
That's a great question. You know, when I was young, I was really afraid of the English language, and so my parents really encouraged me to read anything I wanted. And I will say that what made me a reader was that feeling of freedom, was the feeling that they never told me, you should read this or you shouldn't read that. They let me read everything from, you know, the Grimm, the Brothers Grimm, those fairy tales from, you know, the Black Forest in Germany. I had a big book of those. I read every single one. I read Nancy Drew, I read Hardy Boys. My parents let me read, you know, some really inappropriate stuff, too, like Sidney Sheldon, some romances. They let me read anything I was drawn to. And that feeling of freedom made reading so much fun. And I think that is so essential is to let young readers explore, see what calls to them, and have them feel that they can have fun with reading.
- [32:26]
Kate
Thank you so much for joining me.
- [32:28]
Charlie Gibson
You have a rich future, Ed. A rich, rich future, Ed.
- [32:32]
Megha Majumdar
Thank you both so much.
- [32:38]
Charlie Gibson
I thought it was really interesting that she is a student of cultural anthropology and how she talked about it and how it relates to this book. It's a pretty high minded sounding thing, cultural anthropology. Don't let it scare you away from the book. It's just part of her and you get a sense of it as you read this wonderful, wonderful book.
- [33:02]
Kate
Yeah, you really get a sense that she has studied human behavior from the inside and out and societal behavior from the inside and out. And again, I think one of the brilliant things about this book, and I mentioned this in the interview, is that she doesn't give you a time period. I found myself as a reader going, when is this? When is this? Is it going to be in my lifetime? Is it going to be after me? Because I found myself trying to distance myself from the action of the book, which I think is a really interesting thing that she does. Not putting a time period on it. Is it 10 years from now? Is it 50 years from now? Who knows?
- [33:32]
Charlie Gibson
There's a universality to it that, that it could be at any time because it really does talk about innate human characteristics that are real now and will probably get exacerbated in the future as the climate maybe as the climate gets worse, who knows? We don't have a bookstore today for you. We have 40 bookstores. This is a wonderful thing that a group called the Chicagoland Independent Bookstore Alliance. It's a pretty big title, Chicagoland Independent Bookstore Alliance. But we're always interested in the way bookstores find to make people aware of their existence. We talked to that wonderful store in Mississippi where they have an overnight camp out in the store. We talked to the New England booksellers who have bike tours. This is a. They have a trolley and they have routes that go around and take you to four or five bookstores in a day. You pay, what is it, 50 bucks or something to get on it. And when they announced this experiment that they're doing, they got subscribed immediately. I thought it was really cool. Really cool.
- [34:33]
Kate
Oh, I love that. I just love that. And it's like a community on the bus that will talk about books and then they'll go into the store and they'll talk books with the people who run the store and then they'll all talk about what they bought. Like, it just sounds like, like I can't tell what. I'm more tickled by the fact that it's sold out or the fact that I Desperately wish I could go.
- [34:51]
Charlie Gibson
So we talked to, we talked to Megan Green, who was a bookseller in Chicago who has been part of organizing this thing. As I say, 40 bookstores. If you're in one of these tours, you go to four or five in a day. But overall there are enough tours that cover about 40 different bookstores. And it's, as I say, it's been immensely popular. We'll let Megan Green describe to you exactly what it is. So Megan, we're always looking for ways that independent bookstores can get exposure. And you've got a really interesting idea going on in the Chicago area. Tell us about it.
- [35:26]
Meagan Greene
This holiday season we have the Chicagoland Bookstore Holiday Trolley. This idea came about from Independent Bookstore Day, which is, you know, it's in April, it's super fun, it's a great day. And Chicago started doing buses for that to help people get around to stores and support all the independent bookstores that are, you know, take part in the Chicago Independent Bookstore Day Crawl. And after that happened two years ago for the first time, one of the bookstore owners was like, well, what if we did this more than just once a year? And so then about two months ago, Amanda from Passages Wine and Books, she was like, so what if we just did this? Like, let's just do it. And so she kind of got the ball rolling. And then Jordan, one of the owners at Three Avenues Bookshop, her and Amanda started going back and forth and thus the Chicagoland Bookstore Holiday trolleys came to be. There are currently 10 routes, which is awesome. Like, it's just so many bookstores coming together. It's over 40. There might be another route added. It's sold out within 48 hours because people just are so excited to celebrate in a bookstores, which we're so excited for as well. Each trolley route goes to four or five bookstores and you stop for about 30 minutes and then there's like, you get on the trolley and you do a little 15 minute drive to the next one. And now like the wait list is 500 people. So it's like double the amount of people that we can sit. I know, it's crazy. It's super, super exciting.
- [36:46]
Kate
I love bookstores because I can't think of any other business where people are like, what are you doing? What are you doing? I'll copy your secrets, you copy my secrets. And they come together and they say, you know, we're going to put together this route even though we're all competitors in the same boat. So talk to me about how you got Those participants.
- [37:03]
Meagan Greene
I feel like a new bookstore's opening, like, every week in Chicago. It's crazy. It's awesome. It's just so fun. Before I worked at a bookstore, I was just a lover of books and a lover of independent bookstores. And then I got so lucky that one opened two blocks away from me. And now I work there, which is like a dream, which is hilarious. But little did I know that I would be where I am now. But so with Chicagoland, there's the Chicagoland Independent Bookstore alliance, so it's called Chiba, and they have chai loves books.com, which is where you can find all the information for the trolley. And four Independent Bookstore Day, when that comes about, because there's a whole crawl with that. And what's beautiful, I think, about bookstores and, like, the bookstore independent bookstore community is how much support there is. Like, I wouldn't, like, call independent bookstores, like, their competitors and, like, the right of, like, the fact that, yes, everyone is selling books and that kind of thing, but every bookstore is so unique to, like, the neighborhood they're in and, like, what they're passionate about.
- [38:01]
Charlie Gibson
So how many days are you doing this? Is each one? Is each 1x number of stores? And do you charge people to get on the bus? And how did people respond?
- [38:13]
Meagan Greene
So it is a ticketed event. So when you get, like, if you want to participate in the trolley, you buy a ticket, it's I believe, like 52 plus, a little bit, like, with fees and that kind of thing. And that pays for your ticket on the trolley. But with your ticket on the trolley, you do get a first only printed, exclusive Chiba tote bag. It's our first time doing it. We're using local businesses to make it. Jordan made the print for it, and then now we're getting it printed. It's super cute. Has a cute little trolley on it and it's green. And then we're getting, like, postcards. So you buy the $50 ticket, you get a tote bag, and you get a seat on the bus. And then that trolley will take you to four to five stores, depending on the route. Just with how the puzzling and the mapping works of Chicago. And it's happening five dates right now. More might be added because of that 500 wait list interest. Because we're just like, so many people want to do it. And then there's two happening each day. So it's five days, two routes a day. So that makes 10 routes total. But we are slowly adding extra routes for each one of Those routes.
- [39:16]
Kate
What does success look like for you? Or have you already had success? Given the wait list and advanced sales.
- [39:23]
Meagan Greene
People, just being gung ho behind small businesses is, like, already a win. It's already just like, I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it. But I'm a nerd and I love small businesses and I love bookstores. So it's just something for me that it's just beautiful to see. And, like, all the bookstore owners are just so, like, joyous and incredibly grateful that people are so excited. We even had one bookstore owner had to tell, like, someone was like, I'm so excited for the trolley. Like, are there tickets left? And they had to, like, you know, tell their customers, like, I'm so sorry it sold out within 48 hours. We're so sorry. And, like, seeing people, like, bummed they, like, or, like, on, like, the wait list to experience this, like, first time doing it and that there's just so much, like, so many people want to spend money at small businesses and in this time of the world and, like, in the retail world, like, it's just, like, so nice to see that people want to spread their joy, like, through local businesses and not just, like, shopping online or that kind of thing. So kind of already feels like a win for sure.
- [40:18]
Kate
I think it's great because in some ways too, you're creating a community on the trolley itself. I mean, you know, when you get on that trolley in the morning, you're gonna be on trolley with sort of people who love books just like you. So great book discussions can take place on that trolley.
- [40:32]
Meagan Greene
A hundred percent, 100%. That has happened in the past with Independent Bookstore Day. I remember, because there's, like, local authors that might be on your trolley or just, like, bookstore owner that, like, so you're also getting to, like, know the bookish community in Chicago a little bit more. And that's happened, like, on the bus for Independent Bookstore Day, where one of the authors was like, this book is the best book ever. And I think they went to, like, every bookstore after that and just, like, bought out each bookstore of that book. So it's just. Yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, you're, you know, your TBR is going to grow, and hopefully, you know, your, you know, bookish community grows and you find, like, new books and new people to be able to, like, experience the bookish world with, which is just such an awesome thing.
- [41:08]
Charlie Gibson
Were you surprised that it got subscribed? Subscribed so quickly?
- [41:14]
Meagan Greene
I think, like, it's a happy surprise for sure. Right? But it's definitely like a. I cannot believe it's sold out within 48 hours. Like that is pretty. That's 250 tickets within 48 hours of people being like, you know what? I am free on December 20th. Thank you so much for asking. Like that is just incredible. And, and the us having to open more like hoping like calling the trolley being like, hey, can we like add some routes, please? People are so excited for this and having to like add more. It's just like such like a overwhelming happy surprise of can we do this? Are like, are we doing this? Like, pinch me. Like, I don't know what's happening, but it's definitely just very exciting. For sure.
- [41:51]
Charlie Gibson
Chicago's a big area. How spread out are these? How. How many bookstores are participating?
- [41:56]
Meagan Greene
Yeah, that's a great question. So right now we have 40 something bookstores. The number is. Might be growing. So I don't want to say like an actual like for sure number because we might be adding a few, which is really exciting last minute because again of the 500 plus waitlist that we have that I'm is still growing as I'm speaking to you in this moment. But they range from like up to Evanston where there's like a few bookstores up there, right. To you know, near Wrigley Field, all the way down to like the south side. You have even like Oak Park. So like it's a whole range of Chicago. Like it's not too far because you know, it is trolleys A and B, it's in between like the stores. It's like a 15 minute window of driving.
- [42:33]
Charlie Gibson
So this sounds like an annual event or it's going to become one.
- [42:36]
Meagan Greene
Yeah, I, yeah, this sounds like it's not going away anytime soon for sure.
- [42:40]
Kate
Sucker.
- [42:43]
Meagan Greene
I know we'll be seeing you next, next December in Chicago.
- [42:46]
Kate
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fantastic. It's great.
- [42:48]
Charlie Gibson
It's a great idea. Exposing people to independent bookstores is very important. And people realizing how important independent bookstores are to their community is always, always important. So we wish you luck with this, the Chicagoland one more time.
- [43:04]
Meagan Greene
The Chicagoland Bookstore, Holiday Trolley.
- [43:06]
Charlie Gibson
It's a mouthful.
- [43:07]
Kate
I also hope you get a lot more books under a lot more trees and menorahs and what have you. Because I think, you know, giving the gift of reading is an awesome gift. It was always one of my favorites.
- [43:18]
Charlie Gibson
Good luck.
- [43:18]
Kate
Yeah, this is awesome. Meagan Greene is most often to be found at the Three Avenues Bookshop in the Chicagoland area, which is one of the organizers of this terrific thing. Although I don't think she's so much of a bookseller right now as she is a Christmas book elf.
- [43:37]
Meagan Greene
That's what we'll call her.
- [43:38]
Charlie Gibson
Well, it's a wonderful idea, I think, and I think it's a wonderful alliance. Well, they call themselves an alliance, but it's a wonderful grouping of independent bookstores. What can happen when they work together? And as she points out, independent bookstores do work together. They're not in competition. They are complementary to one another. So they're sold out for now. But she says they may expand the number of routes before Christmas because she said there's a waiting list of, what, 500 people?
- [44:05]
Kate
Doesn't it give you hope? Yeah, it gives you hope.
- [44:07]
Charlie Gibson
It really bespeaks interest in something like this. So congratulations to the Chicagoland Independent Bookstore alliance for putting together this tour. We're going to make you aware of the folks who make this podcast possible. And then a coda from Megha Majumdar.
- [44:21]
Kate
The Book Case with Pete and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg, Arielle Chester at Good Morning America, and Josh Cohan from ABC Audio. Follow the bookcase wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to listen, rate and review. If you'd like to find any of the books mentioned in this episode, we have them linked in the episode description.
- [44:50]
Megha Majumdar
We need fiction. Everybody who is scrolling on Instagram or reading the news or is making time in pockets of 5 minutes and 10 minutes here and there to do other things that are separate from your ordinary life and your responsibilities. You can use those 5 or 10 minutes to read a short story. There are fantastic online magazines instead of, you know, scrolling. You can go to Electric Literature, for instance, and read a short story, read fiction, think about things that are bigger than your own life. And I think that will lead us toward a community and a society where we're kinder to each other. 911.
- [45:38]
Meagan Greene
What is the address to your emergency?
- [45:40]
Megha Majumdar
This 911 call began an investigation that would turn the town of Ashland, Ohio, into a crime scene.
- [45:48]
Charlie Gibson
We've got something big going on here.
- [45:50]
Meagan Greene
The first thing hit My Mind is.
- [45:51]
Megha Majumdar
A Monster, a new series from ABC.
- [45:55]
Kate
Audio in 2020 20. The hand in the window Out Now. Wherever you listen to podcasts.