← The Book Case
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- [00:02]
Amanda Jones
I'm gonna pull over and ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're looking to get to the campground.
- [00:07]
T Mobile Representative
Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree end of this here road. No, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.
- [00:13]
Amanda Jones
How are you getting a signal out here?
- [00:14]
T Mobile Representative
T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge. So the network out here is huge. We're getting the same great signal as the city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a five year price guarantee. Okay, here's those directions.
- [00:26]
Amanda Jones
Actually, can you point us in the direction of a T Mobile store?
- [00:29]
T Mobile Advertiser
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- [01:07]
Kate
Hello, book nerds. Happy Thursday to you. I am the Kate of the Kate and Charlie, welcoming you to the bookcase brought to you by ABC Audio.
- [01:17]
Charlie Gibson
I'm Charlie Gibson. I'm. I'm the Charlie part of the bookcase with Kate and Charlie. But this is really today, this is the bookcase with Kate because this is a podcast that is tremendously important to her. As we have said a number of times, we are keeping this podcast to the extent we can non political. There's just too much sturm and drong in the political world these days. And we want this to be sort of a safe haven. But there's one issue in which we do feel very strongly. We're very much against book banning. It's wrong. People ought to be able to read what they want to read. They should be able to read things that they find helpful to themselves without other people telling them, no, you can't read that. So that's one of the reasons, as Kate has talked about on occasion, that she has gone to library school and has gotten a master's degree in library science. I don't know what she's going to do with it. She doesn't know what she's going to do with it. But she feels very strongly that librarians are now on the front lines, which leads to today's podcast.
- [02:22]
Kim A. Snyder
It does.
- [02:23]
Kate
I had a weekend off where the kids were going to be, you know, out and about. And I was really excited because I was going to take the weekend and do something wild. I was going to sit down and watch a documentary about the librarians. You know, does that just show how much of a book nerd I really am?
- [02:38]
Charlie Gibson
Well, you certainly know how to plan a party.
- [02:40]
Kate
I do, right. Like, I mean, it's crazy. It's crazy. So I was really excited about this movie, and so I reached out to the people who were selling it and distributing it, and I was like, I want to talk about this. Can I see the film? Can you send it to me, please? Because it hadn't started streaming yet, and we'll tell you about that in a second. So they sent me a link to it, and I. Oh, this film moved me so much, you know, book banning, as you say. For me, it is an apolitical subject. Books are freedom, and we have a fundamental right to read in this country. And libraries are a bastion of democracy as far as I'm concerned. And they represent things like right to privacy, discovering who you're meant to be, finding opposing viewpoints. Libraries are supposed to be bastions of thought, and so to find them threatened to me is offensive. So I was blown away by this film. I'm not. I'm not going to lie now. I'm an easy crier, but I did cry a few times. But these are not women and men that stand out in the spotlight and say, look at me. They're not. They just quietly hand people books and help them become who they're meant to be. They help folks gain citizenship. They help kids discover their sexuality. They do all kinds of amazing, private, heroic work with their patrons. So to find it threatened was very hard. So I asked if we could talk to a couple of the librarians in the film and the director of the film. And I was really excited about this show. As my father says, sorry to get all soapboxy.
- [04:09]
Charlie Gibson
Two librarians who tell their story. One is from Texas, one is from Louisiana. Audrey Wilson Youngblood is an anonymous librarian. At the beginning of the film, she talks about the travails that she has had as Texas passes a law in the legislature banning 850 books. The bill sort of came out of nowhere after Covid. And then at the end of the film, you see who she is, and she turns and says, I can't remain anonymous. I have to talk about this. The second one is from Louisiana, Amanda Jones, who has paid a price for speaking out against people who want to take books out of her libraries because she was in charge of Many of them. So we're going to talk to the two of them first, and then we're going to talk to Kim Snyder. She is the person who made this film, produced this film. It is called the Librarians. It's going to premiere Streaming on PBS February 9th. And I think what Kate says, it's an important film. It's an important film because you don't think of librarians as being on the front lines of what's going on today. And the book banning we both think is heinous. It's wrong. People should be able to read what they choose to read anyway. Let's start with Audrey Wilson Youngblood and Amanda Jones, two librarians who tell their story in the movie the Librarians.
- [05:38]
Kate
Audrey Wilson Youngblood and Amanda Jones. It is an honor to have you in the bookcase. I guess we'll start with Audrey. Audrey, how did you get involved in the film?
- [05:48]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
I collaborated with the film in the spring of 2022. I was at the Texas Library association when a couple of friends and colleagues were passing the word around that there was a film crew, a documentary film crew that was there at the conference, and that they felt they trusted them as a storytelling team to capture the stories of Texas librarians who were fighting against censorship and in some cases, enduring harassment and really harsh working conditions while they were just doing their jobs of promoting literacy. So I am the former library coordinator for Keller isd, which is a large district here in North Texas. In the 2122 school year, we, after the Kraus list, saw many books being challenged by just a few members of our community who were all claiming that the books had sexual and inappropriate material for students. And that's where my story started. And then I became a participant with the film after that.
- [06:48]
Charlie Gibson
Did you feel that you were running a risk?
- [06:51]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
I did. It was a very unusual experience to go from one of the COVID heroes in the 2020, 21 school year. As a school librarian, we were out there passing out devices to students, passing them through car windows, getting on any form of social media we could to reach students in their houses and expanding our digital libraries. And I received an award from my district for my work during COVID And then the next school year, I started to be targeted and harassed online. I was doxxed. They called me a pedophile, a groomer. And this was all a shift that occurred over maybe three or four months. And it felt like whiplash, and it was very confusing and it was heartbreaking.
- [07:38]
Charlie Gibson
Did you know who you were being harassed by?
- [07:42]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
I did because they were very visible and they like to do it on social media. And my harassers didn't necessarily create fake social media accounts. They were very transparent in who they were. And so that was also somewhat surprising to me that they would put such heinous and hateful things out in the world just as themselves.
- [08:01]
Charlie Gibson
When they harassed you on social media, would they see you in person and be nice to you, then oldened to.
- [08:08]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
Use some of the colorful imagery that they were online, but they were not form. I really only saw them in person during book committees. Because our process as libraries is when a book is challenged, then we initiate a committee of community members, of educators, librarians, school administrators, to read the book and discuss it. And then we have a series of criteria that we follow to determine what happens from there. And several of them volunteered and were placed on these book committees. So I had the opportunity to sit with them and discuss many of the books that they were challenging. And they. They were not. They were not warm, but they were not as vitriolic as they were online. In the film, we see the story of Granbury ISD and that school district's response in Texas was to box up the books and to remove them and take them off site while they were under review. In my district, we were following our local board policy, which aligns to our legal policy that did not allow at the time for books to be removed while they were under review. So in Keller isd, we did not remove any of the books. I was asked to go ahead and create the report that Kraus called for, which included a lot of identifying information. It was, we felt, very risky. Not only did we have to say which books that we had in the library that were on the list, but we had to say who purchased them and when they came into the library. And that did turn into real risk. We had. Even vendors whose names and numbers appeared on those POS were called and harassed by community members because some of those individuals turned around and filed a public information request. And so they received all those documents that had all of that identifying information on it. So individual librarians whose names were on these purchase orders, the vendors themselves, they all became targets of the harassment.
- [10:07]
Charlie Gibson
But, Audrey, in those conversations, how did you fight back in terms of trying to keep the books in question in the library?
- [10:16]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
As the coordinator, I was the administrator responsible for all 42 of our school libraries. We had a full time certified school librarian in every campus at that point. And so my role was to ensure that we were following the school board policy and to communicate and advocate for that policy to our school leaders and to our community members. So during the school year, especially those first few months, when the challenges began, I fought back by just being truthful and informative and being assertive when I needed to so that we followed the policy, which we did in Keller for a while, until the school board flipped, which you see in the film. I began to fight back in a different way. And that's. This is one example of how I fought back, which is telling the story to Kim and her team and the librarians. I fought back through other interviews with different news and media outlets, staying anonymous because I was still associated with killer isd. And then when I was forced to leave the school district, using my full identity to tell the story. So storytelling was my number one tool of advocacy and action.
- [11:33]
Kate
Amanda, let's start with your story and how you ended up on Kim's radar.
- [11:38]
Amanda Jones
So I was actually really good friends with the Texas Freedom Fighters, the three ladies who founded the organization. Becky Calzada, Carolyn Foote, Nancy Jo Lambert. And so when I was first targeted and harassed in 2022, they were like the first people that I reached out to. One of the first people knowing Becky for so long, Becky's just so calm and rational. She's like, this is what you need to do. So I had been friends with them for a while, and then back in late 2023, Becky was like, someone named Kim is going to contact you. Just listen to what she has to say. And so I did. And I went into it. I was going to say, no. I had already been recorded for a documentary. That's a European documentary. But they showed me a sizzle is what they called it, a little clip. And in the clips, they showed me my friend Martha, who was being harassed, and they showed me my friend Nancy Jo, who was being harassed, and Nancy Jo was crying in the clip. And I thought, well, if Nancy Jo can be brave and do this, I can do it as well. And so. So I said yes. And that's how I got involved. And then I, after I was recorded, I gave them some names, which is how Julie Miller ended up being in the film. So we kind of just word of mouth, spreading, spread the word with Kim and gave her our contacts.
- [12:49]
Kate
How did your fight against book banning begin? Were you a recipient of the Kraus list at your. At your location?
- [12:55]
Amanda Jones
I was not a recipient of the Kraus list per se. They use the same list. They won't tell you that they use the same list, but they do. My situation is a Bit unique in that I am a school librarian by trade, but I was harassed for speaking out for my public library. So I went as a resident of my community and spoke out at the public library in defense of an attempt to ban books. And two men targeted me. Four days after the public meeting, they started posting pictures of me. One was a meme of my face that said that I advocate the teaching of anal sex to 11 year olds. The other one posted a picture of me with a target around my face saying that I give pornography and erotica to 6 year olds. None of which had anything to do with anything I said at the meeting. I went as a resident of my community. I've lived in my small town for 47 years and I've been a library card holder since I was five. So I was just speaking out from a public library. They didn't like that much, so they targeted and harassed me.
- [13:51]
Kate
I wonder if I could ask you something that Audrey touched on as well, which is the flip from the librarian is Saint librarians were so lauded during COVID to this. Why now? Did you see this coming, this flip in public opinion and outcry?
- [14:07]
Amanda Jones
I saw it coming. I just didn't know that it was gonna happen to me. In 2021, I was named the School Library Journal Librarian of the Year, which is like a huge national award. And I was very proud of it. And they paraded me around at school board meetings. And my school board representative, I remember her reading a letter to me in the school board meeting in 2021, crying, you're the best thing that's happened to this community.
- [14:29]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
I remember that clip.
- [14:31]
Amanda Jones
Yeah. So great. And then you Fast forward to 2024, and that same woman who said that about me is now our state representative. She's my state representative. She filed a bill called HB 777 in the Louisiana legislature that they nicknamed the Amanda Jones Bill. That had it passed, I could go. I could have gone to prison to serve 2 years hard labor for attending a school library association, an American Library association conference. So it was complete whiplash. I think Audrey said whiplash. That's. I'm like, I've grown up with all of you. You know, I'm not doing these things. And not only did they not believe me, they turned on me. They were filing bills against me. It was just very surreal. That's the part that I don't get, because in my small community, it was being said that I was a pedophile and a groomer and all of these horrible things. And it was people that I've known my whole life. These weren't random people from the Internet. These are random people I used to work with and I went to church with. And so I think that was the most hurtful part, is that they. These random. These people that I've known my whole life believed random strangers that didn't even know me just for speaking up at the public library. I'm a criminal. I don't. I'm. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. We did defeat that bill, and I sat right behind her in the legislature. When that bill was defeated, I was right there to testify. So they made me an accidental activist is what they've done. They chose to target me, and then instead of being quiet, I did the opposite, which was to just get louder and speak my truth about it whenever I can.
- [16:09]
Charlie Gibson
Well, that's a question that I want to put to both of you. Did you ever envision yourself as being on the front lines of some sort of culture war? And do you have any regrets about having done it, given what has resulted?
- [16:22]
Amanda Jones
I never imagined that I would be in this spot. However, contrary to popular belief, they'll tell you I'm the devil. But I do believe in God, and I think that things happen for a reason, and I think that this happened for a reason. And I think about their author, Samira Ahmed, who is an amazing author, and I heard her say in person, we have to use our power and privilege for purpose. So I believe it's so much. I got it tattooed on my wrist. So I just feel very strongly that if you're given a platform, which all of a sudden I was thrust into the national public eye, if I turned from it, that's a waste of a platform, and that's a waste of my privilege. And I know there's so many kids out there that need these books. So many people need the school libraries and the public libraries. So. I'm my grandfather's daughter, is what I always like to say.
- [17:10]
Charlie Gibson
He.
- [17:10]
Amanda Jones
He fought. He ran away from home when he was 16 to build Higgins boats in New Orleans and landed on the beaches of Omaha. And I cannot. I'm his. I'm the eldest granddaughter. And so he didn't do that in order for his. His granddaughter to back away from anything that looks like fascism. So I'm not going to. And I have zero regrets about it, Audrey.
- [17:30]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
100%. I do say in the film, and at the moment when that was recorded, it was the spring of 22, and it really was shocking. I do come from somewhat of a social worker background. My parents are both work for the state. And so we always had philosophy and the value of helping others, whoever needed help, whenever and however. And a lot of that came from my church upbringing as well. So I knew I always was compelled to step forward and to help. But I never saw saw myself at the front of this culture war, and most definitely not in this moment of history. I don't think any of us ever wanted to see the moment of history we're currently in. And I turned to scripture over and over during the worst part of this time, which is Esther's story where she has made for this moment. And I just echoed that over and over and over again. I too thought, thought about both of my grandparents and a grandmother who were World War II veterans and my father, who's a Vietnam War veteran, and the role that they played in defending democracy and saw that it was generational heritage to also step into that same defender role, but just in a different way with a book and a cardigan instead of a gun. But that's where we are.
- [18:42]
Kate
I want to let you get on your soapbox for a minute as somebody who hopes to be a librarian someday. So, Audrey, I'll start with you. What is a librarian's relationship to the First Amendment, and what does the removal of books mean for your patrons and especially kids?
- [18:59]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
I think the First Amendment is at the core of our profession and the history of librarianship in America, it's always centered around the free and open access to ideas and information. And so when students especially or marginalized individuals and communities, when information is denied their power and their agency is removed. And that's something that librarians are here to stand up for and to fight for. That's, that's why we believe in information, because information leads to knowledge, and knowledge is the key to unlocking whatever potential and, and future for your life. So students, especially, because they're already somewhat disempowered as youth in our society, it's even more vital for them to have open access to information so that they can see themselves and they can see their world and follow their own curiosity to develop that knowledge.
- [19:55]
Amanda Jones
I remember in library school, those are my favorite classes, the ones on First Amendment and censorship. And I remember when I took those classes, it was the Harry Potter craze was happening. And so there was, you know, this group of people wanting to remove Harry Potter from the shelves. And I just remember that in my classes and my teacher, Dr. Ann Naumann, saying, it is paramount that we must Be there for the kids and for your patrons and stick up for the First Amendment. And I. Not just as a librarian, though. Like, I was raised that way. I was raised Southern Baptist, Republican. That you love thy neighbor as thyself, and that the Constitution was key. And we would do everything in our power to defend the Constitution, which includes the First Amendment, and to champion the underdog. That's how I was raised in my community. So, to me, it's very odd that I'm now being vilified for doing the thing that they taught me, the person they taught me to be. But I go back to. There was a study in 2023 by the Human Rights Coalition that really struck me that said so many kids feel unsafe at school, particularly kids from the LGBTQ community. But in that study, they said that nine out of 10 kids felt safest in the library. They felt safe. And so to me, trying to tear up about it, but to me, I am. Because we're such a small community, every kid in my community will have me as a school librarian. Every single kid in my community. And so to me, that's a. That's a responsibility that I don't take lightly. Sorry. I just think that. I think that when you. You say this book isn't okay because it has two moms in it, that's like you're saying to those kids, you're not okay because you have two moms, and I will never be a part of that, ever. Sorry.
- [21:39]
Kate
No, that's beautiful.
- [21:40]
Charlie Gibson
No, not at all. You're both, obviously two young women of strong faith. Has this in any way challenged your faith, Amanda?
- [21:50]
Amanda Jones
Well, it challenged my ability to go to church because I still. It's been since 2022 that I've been targeted and harassed. I'm still harassed in public in my town. So I. I just. I don't go to church anymore. But I think it did the opposite in that it shored up my beliefs, because I feel like what I'm seeing is not Christianity and practice from people that taught me Christianity, but my own faith is much stronger now in that I feel like I'm here for a reason and that things that are put in my path, I can rise up to the challenge, because I will have not only my school librarian friends and my public librarian friends and everyone, but I also have God on my side. I truly believe that.
- [22:34]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
I don't know that it so much challenged my faith, but like Amanda, it reaffirmed and strengthened my core values and I think my personal relationship with God. I. I, too, have Struggled to go back to a church community because not so much that they recognize me. I'm in a very large, you know, urban setting. So there are many choices in, in terms of congregations. But I don't want to be disappointed. I'm afraid I'm going to walk into a faith community and invest in the people and then all of a sudden learn that perhaps how they are practicing their faith and viewing the scripture is not in alignment with what I believe and what I feel to be true. But I'm making strides in finding a church community where I do feel welcome and I do feel safe again. And that's been hard because, like the library, I think the church was the other place that felt safe. And it's become an unsafe place in this environment, I would say, especially here in the South. But, yeah, it's where I am.
- [23:36]
Kate
Audrey, you participated in the librarian's film for 90% of it, with your identity concealed. But then at the end of the film, you come out and you speak your truth. And I was wondering what that process was like for you and what that decision was like for you.
- [23:51]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
It was a long process. It was a two year process from when I started in a little over two years to when we shot that final scene, which was just over a year ago, actually, when, when the Reveal was filmed and I had the help of fantastic mental health professionals, I knew I was experiencing symptoms of trauma. And even after I left that post traumatic stress. And so I was on a healing journey. And after the 2024 election cycle, I felt very hopeless and helpless. And when Kim reached out that they were near completion on the film and we just had some discussions about where I was, it was a foregone conclusion. Conclusion for me by that point that reclaiming my story was the next important part of my healing journey. I didn't think about it being an important part for other people's healing journeys too, until I started to go out and, and be part of the the team sharing the film with librarians. And now I am beginning to understand how impactful my personal choice has been for other librarians.
- [25:01]
Kate
Yeah, it's hard because we are not a profession. I say we, even though I haven't begun in the profession, but we are not a profession. I said this to Ken that stands out in front and goes, jazz hands.
- [25:09]
Kim A. Snyder
Look at me, look at me, look at me.
- [25:11]
Kate
Like, most of the time when librarians are in the spotlight, it's because they've been dragged. They're kicking and screaming. So now that you guys have turned the spotlight on your stories, you know, I wonder if you could talk about, like, what happens now and what happens to the community that you found through this film with each other.
- [25:28]
Amanda Jones
I think I'm so honored to be in this film with so many amazing. Not just librarians. There are non librarians in the film, too. Reverend Dove and Weston Brown and Courtney Gore and Adrian Martin. And I feel like we've become kind of a family. And I'm proud and just so honored to be alongside them for this journey. It can get a little heavy. I'm messaged almost daily from school librarians, like, this is happening to me. How. How can you help me? And it gets to be a lot, which is why I wrote my book, to try to give people an outlet of, like, this is the steps you can take. But it weighs me down. But I. I think, again, I'm going to continue to use my. My power and privilege and my platform and. And try to speak out, because if we stop speaking out, what's going to happen to our libraries? And I'm so, so grateful to Kim and the team and everyone involved for showing the truth. And people in my community have started watching. They've seen screenings. And from reading my book and seeing screenings, the attitude of my community is shifting, which is great. I don't think it's ever going to shift back. Like, my reputation in my community is ruined forever for the rest of my life. But I do think people are starting to realize, hey, maybe we jumped the gun a little bit on this. So I'll always be grateful to Kim and Janique and the team.
- [26:50]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
This community we've created, really, that Kim and the team created, has been such an important touchstone for me over this last year. It's. I mean, we talk daily. You don't see it in the film, but all of the librarians in the film are very connected, and we care about each other deeply. And then I get to see the Texas folks regularly. Chris and Lainey and I are out doing screenings in Texas, and I see the tide turning. And I can't say it's just because the librarians film, but I think the librarians film is a really important part of the awakening that is happening. We just need more stories like this out there, and especially places like Tarrant county here in Texas. That is really pivotal in this moment. And with the news pouring in every day and feeling like I'm going to call on my senators and representatives again today. But really, what good will it do? At least I know with the film, we will have community dialogue and conversation. And I think those conversations are the only way forward as a country.
- [27:51]
Charlie Gibson
Did either one of you ever think of moving, of getting out of that community that basically decided to vilify you after cheering you?
- [28:00]
Amanda Jones
Never. Not once. Because if I leave, who's going to be there for the kids? Not that I'm the only one, but there's so few of us.
- [28:09]
Audrey Wilson Youngblood
I wish I could say the same. There are days might have researched how you get a work visa in Canada, just. But those. You know, you do it and you think about it and you say, that was a thought. And then you get up and you go to work and you do the work. And now it's, we can't leave because this is our community, this is my state and this is my country, and I'm going to be part of this moment no matter what.
- [28:32]
Kate
Oh, you guys, America can keep Captain America and Iron man and all of that. Amanda Jones and Audrey Wilson Youngblood and Dr. Carla Hayden. Those are my heroes.
- [28:42]
Charlie Gibson
It takes guts to look at somebody who, you know, hates. You may be too strong a word, but I'm not sure it is too strong a word in this case to look at the eye of somebody who. Who you think is so. So blinded by their prejudice and so unseeing. It takes a lot of guts. You feel, pardon the expression, you're too gutsy, broads. And I have tremendous admiration for you. God bless you. Audrey Wilson Youngblood and Amanda Jones, two pretty gutsy women who, as you heard them say, have paid a price in their local community for what they're doing. They have been vilified. Vilified for doing what thousands and thousands of librarians do across the country. Commendably.
- [29:29]
Kate
Yeah, absolutely. They provide, as I say, they help people become who they're meant to be. We cannot raise readers in this country without freedom to choose what they read. It is, in some ways, I think libraries are kids first taste of agency, as I think one of our guests said. And I could not agree more. And kids deserve as much agency as possible in a library. And it's important to developing empathy. I could go on about libraries all day like you guys. You don't want to hear me talk anymore about it. But again, that's why I think this film is so important.
- [30:01]
Charlie Gibson
But you make the point again and again that library is about letting kids find out who they are. But libraries are so much more than that. They are just an open book to knowledge. And I remember when my family moved to Washington D.C. from Evanston, Illinois. I was 12 years old. I didn't know a soul. I had a summer to kill. And I spent every single day in the Georgetown Library on Wisconsin Avenue and R Street. It is an invaluable resource and so much of it is just everyday stuff. And they put books in people's hands. Some of them now are controversial, but they've been made controversial and they shouldn't be. I don't think any book should be controversial. And there's a lot of books in libraries that I hate.
- [30:46]
Kate
No, absolutely.
- [30:47]
Charlie Gibson
Darn. They ought to be there.
- [30:48]
Kate
I mean, when you and I took it, we were lucky enough to take a tour of the Library of Congress with Dr. Carla Hayden, the Librarian of Congress at the time. And that place feels holy. Yeah, it feels like. It feels like cathedral. That includes all religions. It is. I mean, it's just libraries are holy places to me. And threatening them is threatening one of the tenants of this country. Anyway, I'm getting all soapboxy again. I can't give me two sentences and I can't help but climbing on top of it.
- [31:18]
Charlie Gibson
So when we come back, we'll talk to Kim Snyder, the producer of the Librarians.
- [31:30]
Stiles Mackenzie
We interrupt this program to bring you an important Wayfair message. Wayfair's got style tips for every home. This is Stiles Mackenzie helping you make those rooms sing. Today's style tip. When it comes to making a statement, treat bold patterns like neutrals. Go wild like an untamed animal. Print area rug under a rustic farmhouse table. From wayfair.com fierce this has been your Wayfair style tip to keep those interiors superior.
- [31:56]
Amanda Jones
Wayfair, every style, every home.
- [32:04]
Kate
Kim A. Snyder, it is such a pleasure to have you in the bookcase? An honor, really. I wanted to start with the origin story. There are multiple stories involved in this film. Was there an original story that got your attention? And how did you get involved?
- [32:19]
Kim A. Snyder
I saw this news piece about this thing called the Kraus List that became known as the Kraus List when state senator in Texas Matt Kraus issued a list of 850 books that school libraries should look to remove from their shelves that he deemed as problematic. And the governor there doubled down and started to have legislation that talked about books that would make kids feel very vague terms, shame, uncomfortable discomfort. So that list was issued and then I came to know about a group of small group of librarians in near, near Austin, Texas who are calling themselves the Freedom Fighters. And they were beginning to react and originally offer support to a lot of librarians who are finding themselves in a kind of Sophie's choice of whether to question these things according to everything they had been taught in fighting censorship and upholding First Amendment rights and complying with these state directives.
- [33:32]
Charlie Gibson
The 850 books. What was extraordinary to me to learn, I had heard about the Kraus list and the 850 books that they are requiring in Texas to get out of libraries. The thing that shocked me most was one of your characters saying nobody had ever complained in their library about any of the 850 books until the list came out and they had to take them off the shelves.
- [34:00]
Kim A. Snyder
What we've learned is that that is the case in most places, that librarians are reporting that they did not have a problem, and there were maybe a few challenges, that they were used to a certain protocol. And then suddenly this explosion of challenges and bans across the country in the fall of 21.
- [34:20]
Kate
Why do you think now.
- [34:22]
Kim A. Snyder
So there was this sudden idea of our kids are being indoctrinated rather than looking at representation. And so many things are available in the library. You can pick whatever you want. But suddenly it was this idea that librarians were indoctrinating kids. How it translated to librarians in particular being attacked is an interesting idea. And that's why early on I said there's. There's a bunch of news pieces about the book bans, but not about the people so much. We weren't focusing on an attack on our librarians themselves for standing up. So I think underneath it, as the film reveals, is a 2025 agenda with white Christian nationalist underpinnings and a lot about an attack on public education and all of those things that we hear about and using school boards as a way to get there.
- [35:27]
Charlie Gibson
I'm curious about why a librarian would say to you, we are the canaries in the coal mine. Tell me what you think she meant and tell me how you think that's manifesting itself.
- [35:37]
Kim A. Snyder
That's a great question. I think she meant that it was a Trojan horse, that it was a. A way to infiltrate a swath of the American public, particularly moms who are. It's a vulnerable place, you know, your kids are in. In. In some way in jeopardy to then have it not really be about the culture wars in the books, but about a more. A more concerning precedent that we've seen throughout history out of the playbook of what happens in more totalitarian kinds of objectives of controlling information to the public. And so that's something we feel that we always say. This is not about pronouns in the classroom. This is a much more Insidious directive.
- [36:30]
Kate
So you meet the freedom fighters and, you know, there's stories that you want to tell in this overarching story. So how do you go about who was your first librarian and how did you grow the film to interweave these different stories?
- [36:44]
Kim A. Snyder
It was almost like a me too moment where librarians started coming out of the woodwork and they were traumatized. They were traumatized over having to. In some ways, I look at it like doctors with a Hippocratic oath. You know, do they literally take an oath? No. But so much of that training is about protecting First Amendment rights. But for me, the shock early on of taking in that criminalizing librarians was actually the table for standing up for First Amendment rights and basically doing their job. Because the big misinformation that was being effectively put out there by Moms for Liberty was that there was obscenity and pornography in the school libraries. And all of them even. I mean, we have, as you know, librarians that I think you're going to speak to who are, you know, we have a devout Catholic, a daughter of a Baptist minister. These are people of faith. None of them. I haven't met one librarian who has said it's true there's obscenity and pornography in the school libraries. It's really concerning.
- [37:50]
Charlie Gibson
Kate, let me ask a question of you. You just got your degree in library science. Kim just said this goes against all of their training that books would be taken out of their libraries because people objected to them. What kind of training, as you got your degree, would be applicable to this situation?
- [38:11]
Kate
Well, first of all, there's the right to privacy, which is really important, you know, knowing what your customers read and not sharing that with other people, which under the Patriot act, was under attack. And in some ways, I think re established some of the basis of our profession. But the other thing is important is multiple perspectives, making sure the perspectives that may be offensive to you or may be offensive to your patrons are still available.
- [38:35]
Kim A. Snyder
That's what's so lovely, is they are these unsung. I see them as unsung heroes and true patriots who, as you said, are not ever people who are on a soapbox. They're. They're public servants to me. They're the curators of knowledge, in some ways, of picking what is in the libraries.
- [38:54]
Kate
I think I'll add one thing more, dad, to that, which is, especially if you're a youth librarian, I think part of your job is to provide kids with a. And this is a big part of library school as well, is really focusing on trying to get every patron of the library a mirror, you know, that they can find themselves in at least one or two volumes of the books that we carry. You know, Oprah Winfrey talked so beautifully during her first episode about the fact that not only could she not find. I mean, she had to search for books about brunettes. That was as close as she could come to finding herself in a book. It has been proven time and time again that kids who see their marginalized identity, the sexuality that are exploring that if they see that reflected in books, in authentic authorship of books, it helps them be more confident in who they're going to be. And I think that's also a very big and important part of library training. Making sure that kids can say, oh, my parents. Those look like my parents. I belong.
- [39:51]
Charlie Gibson
When people walk out of the film or turn it off if they've seen it on television or whatever, A, what do you want them to feel? And B, what do you want them to do?
- [40:01]
Kim A. Snyder
I want them to feel outrage that, as I said, we're actually living in a country where arresting librarians is something on the table. I want them to feel mobilized and activated, to get civically involved on a hyper local level. I think that's where things are at. And this is a particular issue, unlike maybe abortion and guns, where actually you can have agency in your own town by getting involved in a school board, because this is where the protocol is being determined and. Or broken. And that's why it's so important for certain more far right forces to dominate those school boards. So I want people to really pay attention. I was told that the average turnout is maybe 6% to school board elections. People often just don't pay attention to them. And to start organizing locally around this issue, because I don't. I think it's also an issue that is not partisan the way some others are. I really have been in rooms across the country. This film has been in particular demand in art house theaters in the heartland, selling out. And I think it's. People really care about censorship and it's not a particularly partisan thing when you realize it's not really the culture wars piece that it's being framed to be.
- [41:27]
Charlie Gibson
It's a very important film.
- [41:29]
Kate
If any of our listeners are book lovers, I think the Librarians, directed by Kim A. Snyder, is a really important film. Run, do not walk to see it.
- [41:37]
Charlie Gibson
Yeah. Thank you for being with us.
- [41:39]
Kim A. Snyder
Thank you so much for having me.
- [41:45]
Charlie Gibson
Kim Schneider, who made the movie the.
- [41:48]
Kate
Librarians and has obviously a great affection for these librarians and thank you for joining us. And I wholly recommend that you sign into your local PBS station and find this documentary because it will move you and if you are a book lover, it will be a call to action, I hope for you. So we will remind you about the folks who make the podcast possible and allow us to do this episode on the Librarians. And then my father and I, we didn't really ask for a coda from any of our guests, so we looked up library quotes that we really liked and so we're going to do that. So stay tuned for those the Bookcase.
- [42:22]
Charlie Gibson
With Kate and Charlie is a joint production of Good Morning America and ABC Audio. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions and our Executive producer is Simone Swink. We want to make special mention of Amanda McMaster, Sabrina Kohlberg and Ariel Chester of ABC Good Morning America and Josh Cohan of ABC Audio. You can follow us and rate and review this podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like to find any of the books mentioned on this podcast, you can find them listed in the episode description.
- [42:53]
Kate
So my quote is from Alberto Manuel from the Library at night in my full hearted youth, when my friends were dreaming of heroic deeds in the realms of engineering and law, finance and national politics, I dreamt of becoming a librarian.
- [43:09]
Charlie Gibson
And mine comes from the wonderful author Barbara Kingsolver who wrote I'm of a fearsome mind to throw my arms around every living librarian who crosses my path on behalf of the souls they never knew they saved.
- [43:30]
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