Charlie (3:08)

Well, Homestand has a subtitle and I think it best describes the book. The subtitle is Small Town Baseball and the Fight for the Soul of America. Will Barton Werper came back to the United States after a tour of duty in Iraq. He went into the army after 911 and he was disillusioned when he came back by the takeover of so many aspects of American life by big business, including baseball. Major League Baseball simply cut out its support for about 40 minor league teams and that devastated many small towns where their minor league baseball team was a centerpiece of the community. And so Will spent a season in Batavia, New York, chronicling the effects of the. Of the loss of the Batavia Muck Dogs. Now that's a great name for a baseball team. So Kate, where do we start? We have two authors. Where do we start?

Kate (4:04)

We're going to start with Sarah Harmon. I. And then I'll. I'll do my own little pitch for the Will Bardon Worker book. I loved this book. You know, when we go away for the summer, you, you take me to the games in Barnstable. You take me to the games in Falmouth. You take me to. You love minor league games. Now, my father loves baseball. He did not grow up in the south, so he did not do the Friday Night Lights. He did not grow up in Detroit, so the concrete courts are not his thing. But he did love baseball. And this is just a terrific baseball book. It is about more than baseball. It's about how baseball symbolizes some of the small town community life that we're not holding together. But I'm very glad that we got to do A baseball book.

Charlie (4:48)

And got to feel the conversations.

Kate (4:50)

Sorry. Sorry. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. So here we go. Our conversation first with all the Other Mothers Hate Me, author Sarah Harmon.

Charlie (5:02)

Sarah Harmon, it's a treat to have you in the bookcase. Thanks for joining us. I want to start with your title. Katie and I were attracted to the book. We get sent lots of books, and we saw a book called all the Other Mothers Hate Me, and we thought we got to read that. Now, did the title come first, or did you come up with that after you'd written the book?

Sarah Harmon (5:22)

Well, hi, Charlie. Hi, Kate. It's so nice to be here. Thank you for having me. The title did not come first. The book was very much fully finished, and with my agent, who was like, your title sucks. We have to change this. And I was like, what are you talking about? My title is great. And she was like, no, we really need to think about it. And I give her a lot of credit for not only convincing me that the title had to change, but helping me come up with a title that suited the book. And actually, once I came up with it, I was like, oh, my God, that's perfect. And it doesn't require me to rewrite any of the book. So I felt really happy with it in a lot of ways, and I'm really glad it resonated with you. Yeah.

Charlie (6:04)

I've got to ask, of course, what the other title was. The only other title I can imagine is Alfie Was a Little Shit, but I don't think that would have worked. So what was your other title?

Sarah Harmon (6:14)

Okay, I'm, like, embarrassed to say this. I feel like it should be behind a paywall, and I should get, like, a nickel for every time I have to tell. The other title, which I. I was convinced was, like, the best title ever, was Dirtbag Detective, and every single person that I told it to was like, huh, huh. Just like that. Like, they couldn't even muster, like, a polite, like, oh, that's nice. But I was, like, obsessed with the idea of her being a dirt bag and a detective. And I. You know, I don't know. Sometimes you just drink your own Kool Aid. And, you know, that's what. That's what agents and the publishing industry are there for, to sort of take authors and be like, not all of your ideas are good.

Kate (6:53)

But it brings up an interesting point, which is this book. And I want to get back to the title, because I think it. It describes a universal emotion that all mothers have. But a dirtbag detective, Florence, our main character, is not likable for a while. And so essentially you sort of start the book with an anti hero hero. And that's a really risky choice, I would think. How do you make sure that the readers are engaged for those first 50, 75 pages, given the fact that Florence isn't immediately likable?

Sarah Harmon (7:27)

Yeah, it's a really interesting thing, isn't it? Likability. Like what, what makes someone likable versus unlikable? I think as a culture, we've come a long way, especially with female protagonists, where we are more willing to. To give an unlikable woman a shot. And I think what was important to me as an author is that people understand why she is the way she is and why she makes some of these frustrating decisions. You know, she had a brush with fame at 19, and I think it's kind of like that thing they say about people, child actors who become famous. You sort of have this arrested development at the moment that you taste fame. And that certainly was the case for Florence. And then as you get deeper into the book, no spoilers, you kind of find out just how unpleasant some of that fame was. And I mean, this is a light hearted book. But I really did want to think about, you know, I'm an elder millennial. I remember Lindsay, Brittany, Nicole in Paris, how those women were treated. That was only like 15 years ago. I mean, those women were treated horribly by the media and by us as consumers of that media. And so I kind of pictured Florence in that framework of someone who has been treated badly and is acting out as a result. And that made it easier for me at least to, if not like her, then understand her.

Charlie (8:50)

I think the paradigm is that you don't necessarily have to like the character, but you have to care about what happens to the character. And her devotion to motherhood, I think is totally universally relatable. She has that feeling. So did you feel you had to make us, as readers, care about her?

Sarah Harmon (9:12)

Yeah, it was important to me that readers care about her and also that readers who aren't mothers care about her. I think even if you're not, there's obviously something special about being a parent. Like, it's just biological. Like the way you feel about your kids. You would lay in traffic for them. I think most parents would. But everybody has someone in their life that they care about in an irrational way. Like, it doesn't have to be a child. It could be a pet or a godchild or a favorite aunt where you're just like willing to go there for them. And in Florence's, case, her son is, like, all she has. She doesn't have a career. She doesn't have a romantic partner. So her son has taken on this hugely outsized importance in her life, and she's prepared to do absolutely whatever it takes to keep him safe. Way beyond the bounds of what is ethical or appropriate.

Kate (10:00)

Is that. I mean, I found myself reading the first 50, 60 pages going, this is not a likable woman. I don't. She makes really questionable choices, and she's very cynical. And yet I found myself staying with it and liking her because of her sense of humor and because of her love for her son. Were you conscious of trying to bring those elements to the forefront to get you to stick with her until she sort of starts to come to some realizations about herself?

Sarah Harmon (10:30)

I think caring and loving her child is Florence's one redeeming characteristic. And my hope was that readers can see why she acts out and that that helps them stick with her until she learns to be better. This is not a morality tale like, whether she redeems herself or not. You know, that's up to the viewer or the reader, rather, to decide. But I. I think she does change over the course of the book, and I hope that. That readers will stick it out long enough with her to see the transformation that she makes.

Charlie (11:03)

And they will, I think. But I want to come back to the title, because all the Other Mothers Hate Me as a reference to the fact that when she picks up Dylan from school, all the other mothers are gathered around gossiping. And I think that's a universal feeling, that when a mom picks up her kid at school, she's worried about what are the other mothers are saying. So I think that's why the title is so wonderful. All the Other Mothers Hate Me because she just assumes that as they're all gathered around gossiping, that they're gossiping about her.

Kate (11:36)

Other mothers always seem to know the rules. They always seem to have it together, whereas you're, like, figuring it out. I think that's part of the feeling of all the Other Mothers Hate Me as well.

Charlie (11:45)

All the other mothers Hate me. I think, Sarah, you must have thought this is sort of a universal feeling.

Sarah Harmon (11:53)

I think it is a universal feeling, and I think it does go back to. To what Kate was saying about this feeling that you. Like, you've missed a memo. Like, how does everyone else know how everything works? Was there an email that I didn't read? I mean, it's a little bit like high school, right? Like, we're all so insecure about our kids in a way, because we. It's. The stakes are so high. Like you want them to succeed, you want them to do well. It's like the one thing, no matter how cynical you are, and Florence is a very cynical character, you can't brush it off and be like, well, it doesn't matter because it's the only thing that matters, really.

Charlie (12:26)

You told us you have a six year old. Obviously you're a veteran of the mother's pickup line. I suspect you are, at least. And when you do, are they gossiping about you?

Sarah Harmon (12:39)

This book is. It's not a memoir. And actually my kids were really much younger when I started writing this book, obviously, because it's coming out. My son is 6. It wasn't based on my own experience so much as like a sense that. Yeah, like Kate was saying, everyone has, like you do feel so often as a mom, like you've missed the memo. I think that the other moms are like, fairly neutral on me. I don't think. I don't think they hate me or they're gossiping about me.

Charlie (13:10)

Well, wait till they read the book. Wait till they read the book and.

Sarah Harmon (13:13)

Then I'm ready to be corrected.

Kate (13:16)

What was the initial start for you? Like, where did the original colonel come from? Was it that universal emotion of all the other mothers hate me? Was it the kidnapping? Was it the character of Florence that tapped you on the shoulder? What was the first element that got in your head and wouldn't let go?

Sarah Harmon (13:30)

I always wanted to write a mystery specifically. And I find like missing kids stories just really interesting. And I think as a culture, they're just endlessly compelling. There's something about that that just really gets under my skin. I think any parent, it's just like your worst nightmare. And I wanted to see if it would be possible to write. You know, I was a news reporter for like 15 years. I'm aware that these stories do not usually have happy endings. Not funny. And I wanted to write like the lightest possible version where the. The ending sort of that you wish you would get, or the. I don't want to spoil it, but like a little bit of wish fulfillment. So sort of a funny story about a missing kid. I. It is very much a mystery. There's a real crime, there's a real baddie, there's a twist at the end that I hope readers won't see coming. But it's also kind of a joke about mysteries and how obsessed we are with them. And so I hope readers can enjoy it on Both levels.

Kate (14:31)

So now, having done this once, did you. What was your process? Did you outline and then write? Did you write by the seat of your pants?

Sarah Harmon (14:38)

I absolutely did not know any of this. When I wrote word one, the very first thing that I wrote is the first line of the book. The missing boy is called Alfie Risby, and to be completely honest with you, he's a little shit. And as soon as I wrote that down, I was like, well, that seems like it could be a story. I'll just stick with that. I did not have any. Any plot, any outline, nothing. I wrote by the seat of my pants. I basically free wrote the first 10 or 15,000 words. And then I got to the point that I think a lot of writers get to where you're like, where is this going? And then I was like, oh, okay. I guess I have to, like, plan this out or it's not going to make any sense.

Kate (15:24)

Rapid fire questions for Sarah Harmon.

Charlie (15:27)

Did you read your book as you wrote it out loud?

Sarah Harmon (15:30)

I did, yeah. I'm a big believer in reading out loud, and I'm a former broadcaster, so I guess I might be.

Kate (15:37)

Did you read to anybody, or did you just read to yourself?

Sarah Harmon (15:40)

Oh, my God, no. I went into, like, my closet and read. I would never read it out loud to another living person.

Charlie (15:46)

Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot.

Sarah Harmon (15:50)

Oh, Sherlock Holmes. I live in London.

Kate (15:54)

Oh, yeah, yeah. You can't not. What do you use as a bookmark?

Sarah Harmon (15:58)

Oh, I just fold the page down like a heathen.

Charlie (16:03)

I know, I know. Writer you most admire, living or dead.

Sarah Harmon (16:09)

Oh, God, I love David Sedaris. And I think, you know, I discovered him, like, as a teenager, and it was the first person who made me realize, like, God, books can be hilarious. And I just. I so admire. I so admire him on so many levels.

Kate (16:27)

Book that is still on your bucket list that you're convinced someday you're going to read.

Sarah Harmon (16:32)

Ooh. I have never read Jane Eyre, which I'm embarrassed to say out loud. And so I guess I'll say that.

Kate (16:41)

Can I just say, audience? And I'm going to admit I've never read Jane Eyre either.

Sarah Harmon (16:45)

Okay. Oh, that makes me feel so much better.

Charlie (16:48)

Our thanks to Sarah Harmon. All the Other Mothers Hate Me. A wonderful title. Very readable book, as Kate said. Both Kate and I really, really enjoyed it. We'll take a break, and we will be back with Will Barden Werper, author of Homestead, Small Town Baseball and the Fight for the Soul of America.

Sarah Harmon (17:13)

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Brad Milke (17:35)

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Sarah Harmon (18:01)

Months.

Will Bardenwerper (18:06)

Hey, I'm Brad Milke. You may know me as the host of ABC Audio's daily news podcast Start Here. But I'd like to add aspiring true crime expert to my resume and here's how I'm going to make it happen. Every week I'm going to unpack the biggest true crime story that everyone is talking about. ABC's got some unique access here, so I'll talk to the reporters and producers who have followed these cases from months, sometimes years. We'll bring you the latest developments and the larger context on the true crime stories you've been hearing about. Follow the crime scene for special access to the people who know these stories best.

Kate (18:51)

Well, Barton Werper, it is, it is an honor to have you in the bookcase. In the acknowledgments, you say you wanted to write the story of minor league baseball and that that came from a story that you did for Harpers about the Appalachian League. So where I wanted to start, I think, is how did you go from being inspired by that story about the Appalachian League to the Batavia Mukdogs? How did you know you'd found the right team about which to write a book?

Will Bardenwerper (19:18)

Well, it's funny. The way it occurred was, as you noted, I wrote that story for Harper's and, you know, I was really gratified by the feedback I got. You know, I think as most, you know, magazine contributors know, there's nothing more satisfying than hearing back from readers. So one of those messages I got was from Bill Kaufman in Batavia, New York. But what he did was he just said, listen, you know, I really enjoyed your article and it really resonated with me. It everything you wrote about reminded me so Much of my town's experiences with this team, the Batavia Mukdogs, who also had fallen victim to the contraction of the minor leagues, just as those Appalachian League teams had.

Charlie (19:59)

So what happened to the original Batavia Muck Dogs?

Will Bardenwerper (20:04)

They were eliminated, as were 42, you know, other minor league teams. It happened actually. Unfortunately, kind of it coincided with the summer that Covid had canceled minor league baseball. So they actually never had a chance to kind of have a final season, so to speak, because their season was canceled. And then their actual, you know, major league affiliations were canceled shortly thereafter. And what happened in some cases, and what happened with the Mukdogs was they stood up a collegiate summer league team comprised of college players to kind of fill this void that had been left by the departure of the minor league team. And that's the story that I tell. Spending a season with this college team, you say?

Charlie (20:46)

For over a century, minor league ball clubs had provided these small towns with so much more than just baseball. And then you ask the central question, and let me ask the question of you. Does an enterprise that purports to be part of the fabric of America have a responsibility to prevent that fabric from fraying? Does it.

Will Bardenwerper (21:08)

You know, we live in a capitalist society, and baseball owners have the right and maybe even the obligation, according to that line of thinking, to make, you know, the most money. And. And I wouldn't dispute that. I mean, they're. They're clearly entitled to. To do what they're doing. There's nothing illegal about it. But I think the larger question is, you know, it's. What bothered me the most, I think, is this. This disconnect between what the sport has, often the perception they've tried to advance, which is that we're the national pastime, you know, that this is more than a business. This transcends business. We don't just make widgets or, you know what, Maybe there's this sort of Norman Rockwell Americana image that they very actively push, you know, in their commercials. And, you know, if you watch the World Series, there's usually some montage of a kid playing catch with his dad on a cornfield somewhere. And, you know, they even began that Field of Dreams game in Iowa that they now do every year, you know, where major league teams play a game, you know, where that. Where the movie was filmed. And so I think what I was getting at is it's not really, you know, there's something kind of. It feels wrong to at once embrace this image that we're more than a business. But then at the end of the day, these decisions are purely business decisions that are actually leaving a lot of people worse off that were loyal fans.

Kate (22:32)

But why does minor league ball, minor league baseball, capture that story more than street football or backlot basketball? You know, the other two great American games that some people would argue being football and basketball. Why does this snapshot of minor league baseball provide such a vivid illustration of this more than those sports?

Will Bardenwerper (22:56)

I don't know if. I mean, I think you're right. I think, you know, there's probably a number of different pastimes and activities that could, you know, claim some role in kind of this American, you know, mythos. I wouldn't argue that baseball is, you know, the only one that can do that, but I do think it's probably the most prominent one. And the fact that there were 160 of these teams, I mean, there's no other sport that has had an infrastructure and 160 is actually down. I mean, if you look back at the history of minor league baseball, back in the 50s, there were like over 300. And so, you know, this has, for at least a century, like I mentioned, you know, been kind of a defining characteristic of small town life across America to the extent that, you know, you don't. There was. There's never been minor league basketball in hundreds of cities, or football for that matter. So there is something, I think, very unique and special about it on the American landscape.

Charlie (23:48)

Is the book just about baseball?

Will Bardenwerper (23:52)

No, and I wouldn't even. I think that's important to note. I wouldn't even say it is even primarily about baseball. You know, if you read it, you know, maybe 15% of the words are, you know, describing baseball games. I kind of use baseball as a lens through which to try to get at where we are as a society today through a description of the lives and the experiences of these people and what baseball has meant to them. But no baseball is there. I think it's an important element of the book, but I don't think I'd even call it a baseball book.

Charlie (24:27)

Well, that's why I asked. You come back from a military deployment overseas, you've been away for a good period of time, and you come back with, as you describe it, a fractured nation. And you use baseball as an exemplar of what you're talking about. But I was curious as to why you chose baseball. You could have developed into the social realm, you could have talked about social media, you could have talked about politics, but you chose baseball. How come?

Will Bardenwerper (24:55)

I did. And part of that was not necessarily part of the initial vision for the book, I think I would say. I mean, the book was inspired by this contraction. And maybe even at the outset, I went into it kind of intending to examine that most closely. But as time went on, I think I discovered that there was a lot more to it than baseball. And I think the personal element to it was certainly something that. That grew as I spent time at the ballpark. It's not something I expected to play as large of a role in the book as it did. I found myself, I think, initially recognizing how important these games were to the other fans I was getting to know as far as providing this sense of sort of just sort of serenity in the midst of this very sort of turbulent world that we live in. And then, you know, that wasn't entirely surprising, although I think I was somewhat surprised by. To note the extent of that. But what was certainly surprising was the fact that I also began to experience that. I began to kind of see this. These bleachers as a little bit of a personal refuge from parts of, you know, contemporary life that I had found to be disenchanted. And that's where, you know, that. That. That part of the book, you know, my own experience was something that was not really planned, but it kind of just developed naturally over the course of the time I spent there.

Charlie (26:25)

But, Will, when Batavia lost their minor league team, they went out and got a team in a college all star league. So they still had baseball. I mean, there were still muck dogs.

Will Bardenwerper (26:34)

I want to acknowledge the fact that the quality of play, you know, is not the same. I think there might have been, like, three home runs all season that went over the fence. And so, you know, the camaraderie is there and the community element to it is there, and the entertainment, I think, is still there. But there's no getting around the fact that there's been a degradation in the baseball product.

Kate (26:57)

And how does that change the dynamic for the fans at all? Or does it change the dynamic for the fans at all?

Will Bardenwerper (27:03)

And that's a really important question, and it's kind of a tricky one in that what I think major league. What some of the major league folks would tell you and what they did say is, listen, this is not the wrong kind of baseball, or this is just a different kind of baseball, and that the people are basically still going to be provided the most important, you know, element. There's still going to be baseball in these communities. It just might be a little bit different. And. But I think that's kind of disingenuous in that. You know, I kind of liken that. The analogy I used was, well, we're going to take away, you know, a five star steakhouse from your community and we're going to replace it with a greasy burger joint. And the fact that the people that used to flock to the steakhouse go to get the burgers, that can't really be used as evidence. Well, they're just as well off with burgers. You know, it just says that, well, that's all they now have because you took the other, the better thing away.

Charlie (27:56)

Will Bardon, Werper, It's a pleasure to talk to you. It's an interesting book, an interesting argument, and the subtitle is not just a reference to baseball, it is the fight for the Soul of America. And baseball, to my mind, but I do romanticize it is part of the soul of America. Thanks for being with us.

Kate (28:15)

Yes, thank you.

Will Bardenwerper (28:15)

No, thank you so much for taking the time to read the book and to talk to me.

Charlie (28:23)

Again, our thanks both to Will Barton Werper and to Sarah Harmon. This is fun with two books in one, very different. Kate and I tried to find a theme that would tie these two books together.

Kate (28:36)

I vaguely held on to, I vaguely held on to Summer Kiln Early. I mean, come on, like, hold on to that. Like the Life Preserver in the Ocean. It's, it's two summer books come early. One's about baseball. One's a really funny page turning mystery there, Summer. I'm sticking to it.

Charlie (28:52)

Okay. I like the Life Preserver in the Middle of the Ocean. Anyway, our thanks to both of them. As I say, they're both very readable books, the folks who make this podcast possible. We wouldn't be here without these folks. So we want you to listen up to their names and then we have a coda from Sarah Harmon.

Kate (29:07)

The Bookcase with Kate and Charlie Gibson is a production of ABC Audio and Good Morning America. It is edited by Tom Butler of TKO Productions. Our executive producers are Laura Mayer and Simone Swink. We want to make mention of Taylor Rhodes, Amanda McMaster and Sarah Russell at Good Morning America and Josh Cohen, Asal Asanapour, Meg Fierro and Amira Williams at ABC Audio.

Sarah Harmon (29:28)

I will give a piece of advice which is don't compare yourself. I think that is advice for writing and for life. And it's so hard now with like Instagram and social media and all of that. But if you can manage not to, you're going to be so much happier in the end. Don't Compare yourself.

Charlie (29:49)

On April 8, the final season of.

Sarah Harmon (29:52)

The Handmaid's Tale arrives.

Charlie (29:54)

This is the beginning of the end and the revolution.

Kate (29:58)

What's happening?

Charlie (29:59)

Rebellion begins.

Sarah Harmon (30:01)

How many bodies you got to throw in the fire? When is enough enough?

Kate (30:04)

When there's no one left to fight? Where is June Osborne? Rise up and fight for your freedom.

Charlie (30:12)

The Hulu Original Series the Handmaid's Tale.

Will Bardenwerper (30:15)

Final season premieres April 8th.

Charlie (30:18)

Streaming on Hulu.