"The Good Lie” Full Discussion

Summary

The Book Lisp with Jon Ryan & Sarah Colonna
Episode: "The Good Lie” Full Discussion
Release Date: October 27, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this lively and candid discussion, married co-hosts Sarah Colonna and Jon Ryan dive deep into A.R. Torrey's psychological thriller, "The Good Lie." With their signature blend of humor and sharp insight, they unpack the book’s shocking twists, provocative themes, and complex characters, while also reflecting on what it means to consume dark thrillers as part of a book club. Along the way, the hosts parse plot holes, ethical dilemmas, and personal reactions, giving listeners both a critical rundown and a taste of their unique marital banter.

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Main Discussion Points

1. Reactions to the Book and Its Big Twist

• Sarah admits she did not see the central twist coming: “I tried to kind of pick up that it was going to end up being John that was the BH Killer. And I didn't see it. I thought that this was for me personally, this was a very well hidden twist that I didn't see coming.” (04:48)
• Jon acknowledges the author’s skill at misdirection: “I think it was always in the back of my mind. I thought at the first it was almost too obvious that just because he was brought up right from the get go.” (07:30)

2. The Characters: Complex Motivations and Psychology

Gwen (Dr. Moore):

• The hosts discuss whether anyone could mentally stomach Gwen’s job as a psychiatrist dealing with dangerous, confessional patients.
• They reflect on her ethical gray area, especially regarding deleted voice messages and her sense of guilt:

  “She deletes the phone messages...the minute she finds out he's dead, she is covering her own ass because she didn't come to them. She knows that she probably could have prevented Brooke's.” (18:30)

Robert:

• Jon and Sarah debate Robert’s motivations and eventual actions, especially his pursuit of justice and closure.
• Sarah observes Robert’s evolution by the novel’s end:

  “...the closure of bringing... [John] to justice by killing him, but he also brought him to justice publicly right by...when everyone found out that he was actually the BH killer. ...it was kind of an interesting character thing to see...this heaviness taken out of him.” (29:48)

Scott and ‘The Influencer’ Thread:

• The hosts discuss Scott's arc, his trauma, and the theme of unreliable truth:

  Jon: “There was a time where I thought that he was just making the entire thing up.” (13:28)

• They debate whether the narrative is fair in how it handles blame towards victims, with Jon noting discomfort when implication falls on Scott. (14:04-15:02)
• Sarah counters: “I just. I'm disagreeing on the fact that I don't feel like that the author was writing it as if he was...I think the author is letting us know how gross this guy is that he's actually gonna...go after this family.” (14:20)

3. Moral and Legal Ambiguity

• Jon and Sarah examine the blurry line in psychiatric confidentiality and danger reporting:

  Jon: “It's not illegal to think that you want to kill someone, but maybe it's illegal to what, verbalize it?...The stress that this woman must go through dealing with all these people is crazy.” (17:58)

• They tackle realism in courtroom procedures, such as Robert representing the man accused of killing his son:

  Jon: “In the real world. Would a judge ever allow that? There's no way. Would he?” (22:37) Sarah: “I have no idea. Like, our legal experts here, as on the listeners, please let us know...” (23:14)

4. Plot Details and Potential Holes

• Both hosts point out the handful of story beats that seemed superfluous—such as the missing wallet/keys and unresolved references to Robert's ex-wife’s murder:

  Sarah: “Am I crazy? Did it...Did we ever follow up on that [Robert’s ex]? Did I miss something?...It just felt like a little thing that never went anywhere.” (38:40) The Goodreads community agrees, according to Sarah. (41:10)

• Luke’s subplot and its connection (or lack of) to the main narrative also prompts questions from both.

5. Serial Killer Logic & Motives

• The hosts muse on real-world and fictional compulsions of serial killers, the roots of evil, and why such stories fascinate readers:

  Jon: “That's the thing. Serial killers too. It's like, I think that's part of the reason why people are so fascinated with serial killers is because...our heads don't work like that. And so we want to try to understand how their heads...work, and we just can't wrap our minds around it.” (36:21) Sarah: “...a lot [of abuse] happens to a lot of people and they don't turn around and do another awful thing to someone else. So it's just such a...Who knows?” (36:35)

6. Lighter Moments & Banter

• Classic “Book Lisp” humor peppered throughout. On buying houses with a dark past:

  Jon: “Always look in the attic before you buy a house. And if there's a row of pinky fingers in there, do not buy it.” (34:08)

• The infamous “bucket of beer” bar scene:

  Jon: “Dr. Moore, Gwen walks into the bar after the funeral and she's sitting there by herself and she orders a bucket of beer. A bucket of beer. That should not be questioned by anybody. If I want to sit there and drink five cold beer by myself...let me drink my five beers in a fucking bucket.” (42:21) Sarah: “Yeah, and let's normalize women doing it too. ...these are my five beers. You go get yourself one, buddy.” (42:24)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 04:48 | Sarah | "I tried to kind of pick up that it was going to end up being John that was the BH Killer. And I didn't see it..." | | 07:30 | Jon | “I think it was always in the back of my mind. I just, I thought at the first it was almost too obvious...” | | 13:28 | Jon | “There was a time where I thought that he was just making the entire thing up.” | | 18:30 | Sarah | “She deletes the phone messages...the minute she finds out he's dead, she is covering her own ass...” | | 29:48 | Sarah | “...the closure of...bringing him to justice by killing him, but he also brought him to justice publicly...” | | 34:08 | Jon | “Always look in the attic before you buy a house. And if there's a row of pinky fingers in there, do not buy it.” | | 36:21 | Jon | "That's part of the reason why people are so fascinated with serial killers is because our heads don't work like that..." | | 42:21 | Jon | "If I want to sit there and drink five cold beer by myself...let me drink my five beers in a fucking bucket." | | 44:55 | Sarah | “I give her four and a half out of five martinis.” |

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Ratings & Final Thoughts

• Jon: 9 out of 12 beers (“I loved it... definitely read another book by A.R. Torrey.”) (44:26)
• Sarah: 4.5 out of 5 martinis (“I did like her writing even if I had questions on a couple of things.”) (44:55)

Both recommend "The Good Lie" for fans of psychological thrillers, agreeing it kept them guessing and inspired lively debate, even if a few narrative loose ends remain.

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Key Timestamps

• [04:48] – Sarah reveals she didn’t see the twist coming.
• [07:30] – Jon discusses misdirection and suspecting John.
• [13:28-15:01] – Scott’s arc and questions of blame.
• [18:30] – Ethics of Gwen’s choices and deleted messages.
• [22:37] – The legal angle: Could Robert really represent Randall?
• [29:48] – Robert’s closure and justice for BH Killer.
• [34:08] – The attic, pinky fingers, and buying houses with history.
• [36:21] – Why are we fascinated by serial killers?
• [42:21] – “Bucket of beer” bar scene and gendered drinking norms.
• [44:26-44:55] – Final ratings and recommendations.

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Closing

Listeners are invited to share their thoughts, disagreements, and interpretations, as Sarah and Jon encourage a spirited exchange of opinions. The next pick is a lighter read—“12 Days of Christmas” by Debbie Macomber—offering recovery from this month’s psychological rollercoaster.

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Enjoyed the episode? Join the Patreon or Book Lisp Spinners group, and get involved with the discussion!

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Sarah Colonna.

[B]

And I'm John Ryan.

[A]

And you're listening to the Book List. The Book List.

[B]

The Book Lisp.

[A]

Oh, that's right. You're listening to the Book Lisp. Oh, hello and welcome to the Book Lisp with John Ryan and Sarah Colonna. Hey, John.

[B]

Hello. How are you now?

[A]

I'm. I'm good. How are you now?

[B]

How are you now?

[A]

How are you now? How you doing?

[B]

Canadian thing. How are you now?

[A]

If you. Yeah, John's got baseball in the background. We're recording this a little bit ahead of time because we're headed to Europe for that wedding that we've been telling you we're going to. So we're recording this on a Friday. October. So early. It's the. What is it? The. What's today?

[B]

17Th of October.

[A]

Of October. So the Mariners and Blue Jays are playing tonight. So by the time you guys hear this, there will be an outcome for that game, and I hope so. That's all. That's all we know. Yeah, Hopefully. Hopefully the game will be over by then. Happy fourth week of your Book Lisp. This is the week that we get so excited about because we, John and I, avoid talking to each other about the book so that we can have all the thoughts that we share fresh with you guys. So this is the full discussion for A.R. torrey's the Good Lie. We're very excited. John, remind them what they're reading in November.

[B]

12 Days of Christmas by Debbie Macomber.

[A]

That's right. That's your. No, your December or November book. I'll announce the December one the first week of November, as usual. If you guys have any suggestions for Murdery Christmas books, you can hit me up on the book list Instagram or on the book list Spinners. It's our Facebook group. I get a lot of good suggestions there. I got a lot of good suggestions for a trip, too, just to read. Like, just. Just. I've downloaded probably 10 books for this trip and. And I don't. I'm not looking at any of them really, for the book list. I'm just reading. But I'm sure something I'll, you know, shake out. Maybe. I don't know.

[B]

I downloaded Dan Brown's new book.

[A]

Oh, yeah. You were asking me earlier if I ever read Dan Brown, and I have not. What was the.

[B]

It was Angels and Demons and then.

[A]

Right, the.

[B]

The Da Vinci Code.

[A]

Right, the Da Vinci Code. Yeah.

[B]

I guess that was his biggest one, davinco. But this is all part of the series. Robert Langdon But I feel like for a while there, he was like, huge. And then he almost became like Nickelback where was like. You know what I mean? Like, it became like, too big. And like, once everyone liked it, then it was like no one liked it.

[A]

That's. Yeah, that happens to people.

[B]

Like, I feel like Dan Brown's kind of like the Nickelback of authors right now, where it's like he got too big and now people are like, ah, screw that.

[A]

And so now he has to make his comeback. His comeback tour.

[B]

I don't know. I love him, though. I like it.

[A]

Well, no, it's funny because when you said that earlier, I was like, gosh, I haven't heard that name in a while. And I never really did read his books, but I know he's a great author and.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I believe this is the sixth and final book of the Robert Langdon. Langdon series. And the first one was in 2000, so it's been for 25 years. Like, the first book was in 2000.

[A]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a hell of a career. So keep going. Right, well, this. We're talking about the Good Lie by Ar Tori. Today we're going to break it down for you. Don't forget that we do have a patreon. It's only $5 a month. We have short stories over there. I've already picked out a short story for next month, but I'll. I'll announce I have to look at it because it might be December too. It's like a Christmasy one, but like an older one, so I think it might be fun. So we do short stories on the 15th, on the 5th and the 25th, we just do random podcasts. So we have fun over there. $5 a month. We also do it as a video on Patreon, so little fun thing if you want to join us over there now. And also, hey, Spokane and Tacoma, come see me. John will be with me. New Year's Eve in Spokane at Spokane Comedy Club. Tacoma, January 2nd and 3rd at Tacoma Comedy Club. Tickets@Sarah Colona.com. i have a lot more dates on there. I've got Chicago, Appleton. I have some shows in Iowa three different times in February. They may. They may not be up there yet, but it's at the Wild Rose Casinos. The different locations.

[B]

All three of them.

[A]

All three of them, Yeah. I just, they. They hadn't sent me the link yet for tickets, so they may not be up there yet, but just put it in your. In your back pocket that I'll be in there. February 6th and then I believe the 20, let me tell you right now, 7th and 28th. So a lot going on, lots to keep up with. Let's talk about this book.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

I loved. I had never read Ar Tori before.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

I thought it was, it was very unexpected to me now when I listened back I tried to sort of. So, so we did this thing where we both sometimes read the book too early. You guys have heard us talk about this and then we have to listen back before we talk about it with you because then we've read something else in between. So I listened back on the audio and I tried to kind of pick up that it was going to end up being John that was the BH Killer. And I didn't see it. I thought that this was for me personally, this was a very well hidden twist that I didn't see coming.

[B]

Well, I think it was almost like right from the start you're like, oh, John Abbott, he's too obvious that they bring him up right at the start. And usually when they bring some up right at the start and they point all the fingers to him right at the start you're like, it can't be that person. And then it turns out it is John Abbott who is the bloody heart killer.

[A]

But I also, I also. It's funny because even though he was brought up at the beginning, I just never considered him to be a suspect. Not once. Am I dumb.

[B]

Why not?

[A]

Because I never. Because, because I thought the same thing that are. That our, that our Gwen, the, the main character thought that psychiatrist I or psychologist, which is it?

[B]

Psychiatrist. I think.

[A]

Yeah, I thought the same thing. She thought that he was, he was there because he wanted, you know, he was going to violently hurt his wife. And I never suspected him for the BH killer. Mo. I think that usually you would go, oh, these characters are in here for a reason. But then there was, there was the other one, Layla or whatever. In a sense. Right. That, that she was all she wanted.

[B]

She wanted to kill her sister in law.

[A]

Yeah. Even though she was really. She just wanted the attention of saying she wanted to kill someone. And then there was Luke who.

[B]

Lit his sister on fire.

[A]

Yeah. So I, I guess I just thought like we're the reason these characters are, are existing in this book are not because any of them are suspects. It's because we're. They're letting us know what Gwen does, the kind of people she deals with. Therefore that's why she's doing this psychological profile for Robert. Of course I wondered what the hell his extra, you know, his ulterior motive was what was going on. But I never put it together that it was like, oh, you were, you were seeing John. John was my pharmacist. I know for a fact that John was the killer because. And he killed my son. And the way he put it together because of the diabetic. Diabetic medications and all that. So I never considered it. Did you?

[B]

I think it was always in the back of my mind. I just, I thought at the first it was almost too obvious that just because he was brought up right from the get go.

[A]

I see.

[B]

But then I think that, yeah, I didn't necessarily think it was going to be him for sure until close to the end.

[A]

Well, I feel a little dumb that I never even considered it at all, truly. But I, I loved. You know, there are some things about it that you just go, okay, now this Robert, his. His son died in a terrible, terrible way. Gabe and. Yeah, his son Gabe died in a terrible way by the BH killer. And he, he really did think that Gwen knew all along.

[B]

Yeah, as it comes out at the end.

[A]

Yeah. And at the end we find out, you know, we don't do this in order. We just talk about our thoughts.

[B]

No, we jump over.

[A]

So it comes out at the end. She, you know, he thought that Gwen knew all along. And it takes. She has to convince him. I really didn't know. He look at the case files. I really thought that I missed it and. But even though he knew or he thought that she knew all along, he's still banging her.

[B]

Yeah, I know. What was the. Was the point? Just try to get closer to her.

[A]

I'm not sure. I mean, I. I think so. The first time. Yes, because now that makes sense why he was going through her case files. Even though at the very beginning, when he does go through her case files, I go this guy's way. Crossed a line. Right? And he even says that too. Like I wouldn't. I don't know what I do if someone did that to me. I mean, he's talking to himself, not her. But when he went through her case files, do you think he went there to. To purposely look through John's case files? Or do you think he really was just calling his office? Cause his phone was dead. I mean, I know he did call his office, but do you think he was. He did call his office as. So that if she checked, she would see that he did and he was really just looking for the case files or do you think that he went in to actually Use her phone and then saw the case file and was like, I'm gonna poke her out.

[B]

I don't know. Cause that's just like too big of a coincidence. Like, he. Did he go in the bar that day knowing she was.

[A]

I think so. Because he saw her at the funeral.

[B]

Right. But, like, he went after her in a way because he wanted to probably see more information on this guy, right? John Abbott.

[A]

So he probably gave himself an excuse to go into her office, but he definitely intended to look at her files.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

Yeah, I think so.

[B]

Because it's too big of a coincidence, if not, right. Like I just happened to bang this woman who just was representing or like, works for the guy that killed my son, Right.

[A]

Well, because I could. That's the only little glitch that I couldn't figure out is if he didn't find out until after they had sex the first time that she was seeing him. As that's the only thing that I don't think I've ever gotten clear. And I don't know if I missed it somehow, if I'm a little bit stupid, if perimenopause is making things slipped my brain, but I. That's the only thing I'm not clear on, is if he walked into that bar. Of course he knew that she knew John, but, you know, she was at the funeral. But did he walk in knowing that she was the psychiatrist that John was seeing and he. Or did he find out on her desk?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. That's the only thing.

[B]

I, I, I don't know. I don't. I don't know if it's very clear. I think it's just too much of a coincidence for. Not like him, just go hit on a woman in the corner of the bar that happens to be, as I said, happened to be the psychologist of the man who killed your son.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It seems like too much of a coincidence. Like, he knew. He knew it.

[A]

It's just that after he sees the files, he does say something like, you know, from his perspective, something about how his feelings changed for her. You know, he's not so hot. And after that. So in a way, I wonder if it was, yeah, supposed to be a crazy coincidence, but either way, we know that even after that, he slept with her again after he did know. Right? So this guy, you know, just couldn't.

[B]

Even at the end, like, get past that when he shows up, he shows up to her office or house with a knife at the end, you know, like, trying to try to kill her, and then, Then after the. At the end of the book, it says like, two months later, they. They meet up again. I'm like, well, maybe you guys should just cool it a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. Starting meant for each other.

[B]

This might not be the guy for you. This might not be the girl for you. You guys have kind of been through it a little bit too much here. You just might have to move on.

[A]

Yeah. She even said, right.

[B]

Like, yes.

[A]

She says something like, oh, I mean, he was in his office to kill me a couple of months ago, but here we are now. And then. And then he talks about taking on a client. Like, did he. Is he being serious about her taking him on as a client or is he just flirting with her and saying, let's date date?

[B]

Because, I mean, I. I don't. I don't think you can take. I don't think you're allowed to take on a client that you actually know.

[A]

Right. Especially one that you know. Yeah.

[B]

I don't think that's. What's the word?

[A]

Ethical.

[B]

Ethical.

[A]

Okay. That's fair.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think that's ethical.

[A]

Now, is there any point? So we knew. I knew Scott was lying about something from the beginning because his mother knew.

[B]

And so did his mom.

[A]

Yeah. And of course, I mean, I'm not a genius for saying that. She kept saying, I know he's lying about something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. It was there any point because of the fact. And I wondered if this was kind of peppered in there on purpose when he becomes, quote unquote, an influencer and likes looking at his follower account and all that stuff. Is there a little bit of a point where you wondered if he was going to end up having made up the whole thing just for attention because of it?

[B]

No.

[A]

I hated thinking that, but I was kind of like, is that where this is going that's so effed up?

[B]

No, there was a time where I thought that he was just making the entire thing up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I thought. I actually thought that's where I was going for a while, that he was completely made this whole thing up. And like, then we find out that he was rape and abused and brainwashed. I think that sometimes in the story. I don't love the way she wrote it. Almost acting like he is kind of to blame as well. A little bit.

[A]

Oh, I didn't see. I didn't. Okay, go ahead.

[B]

Later on in the story, after they said after one month, it's like he's being. Him and his family are being sued for $10 million by Randall.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's Almost like putting, like. Oh, like he's something to blame, which, like, he. He was. He was rape, abused, brainwashed.

[A]

Of course. Of course.

[B]

The list goes on.

[A]

Right. But that's Randall that's suing him and.

[B]

No, no, I. I know, but I.

[A]

Don'T like that after he still. I know, but she didn't. I. I just. I'm disagreeing on the fact that I don't feel like that the author was writing it as if he was. I think the author is letting us know how gross this guy is that he's actually gonna, you know, like, oh, I. You guys try to pin this on me. Even though he knows he did some awful things and he should just be thankful that he didn't get pinned for the murders because he's still a piece of at the end of the day. Right. We know that he did awful things to students anyway, but he just never murdered anybody, that's all.

[B]

So there was a point before that, babe, where Gwen says, I wonder what. What Scott's going through now. He's probably about to be charged for obstruction of justice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel like there's a couple. There's a couple things that were, like, pointing to, like, almost like, I. I don't think. I don't think. I. I didn't think it was fair to write it like that.

[A]

I see. I like. I like that perspective. Yeah. I think you're right for that part. For the Randall part. I was just thinking, like, oh, we're just seeing what a piece of Randall is still, that he's going to go after this family. But you're right for that part. You almost want Gwen to say, I. Hopefully the justice system understands that this kid was a victim and that he was brainwashed and that's why he lied and that this. And nobody will charge him for anything, because that would be insane. I mean, this, you know. Yeah, he lied, but he thought he was doing the right thing because he was a kid who was abducted and brainwashed.

[B]

So he really was brainwashed because it was like, a month late, like, at the end of the book, as he said, we jump all over. It was a month later, and they have. They pick up with him standing outside of Randall's window watching him eat pasta and with a knife. Like, Scott had a knife or. Yeah, Scott had a knife, like, wanting to still kill him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because he abused.

[A]

Revenge, Brooke. Yeah, that's.

[B]

That's. And then luckily, his mother was there, Anita was there to take him away. But it shows, like, how brainwashed he was that even Like, a month later, he's still trying to get revenge for what he did to. What Randall did to Brooke.

[A]

Yeah. And not. And still not seeing what she did to him. And just thinking that that was the one part that I. I was so glad I relistened to it, because it. You know, they. When those twists come, you start thinking back and of all the things that. What did I miss? Or what. But they. She explained it ar. Tori made sure to put in there, because you go, well, how did he not know that Brooke and John are dead? Right. He was. If.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

It's got to be in the news. And then it's because he never knew John. He. He only knew him as Jay, and he never knew their last name, so he didn't know. And he even said too. Yeah. When I listened to it back, he says at the end, he's like, that's why I was never able to find them online. I didn't know their names and this and that, so. But it wasn't until his parents show him the photo of the couple that died and are now being called the BH killers and confront him and say, why did you lie? That he sees and knows that she's dead, and that's why she hasn't been answering his phone calls.

[B]

Gotcha. Yeah, I want to talk about Dr. Moore, Gwen. Can you imagine doing that job? No, I think that. I almost think you have to be a little bit messed up even to do that job. Like, you're dealing. Like. And then. And then I feel so bad for her because now she feels all this guilt because she's like, oh, I saw these things, like, John Abbott wanted to kill his wife. And it's kind of like a gray area, like what you report and what you don't report, because you can't. You can't. You can't report someone to the police on something they're thinking. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think she talks about that. So it's like, what? It's not illegal to think that you want to kill someone, but maybe it's illegal to what, verbalize it or verbalize it in a session that's not with a psychiatrist. I don't know. I would say, like, the stress that this woman must go through dealing with all these people is crazy.

[A]

Yeah. And there are parts of her. Right. As a. As a character that are likable and then a little bit iffy because she is. So she. She does start. She deletes the phone messages.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The minute she finds out he's dead, she is covering her own ass because she didn't come to them. She knows that she probably could have prevented Brooks.

[B]

Is she. Is she protecting her own ass, or is she protecting her clients, or is he protecting the client? Doctor, what is privilege?

[A]

I felt like at that point she was protecting her own ass because the client's dead. And she. And she. I mean, she basically says my practice would be gone. And I. And listen, some of that comes from probably what she believes are her standards and saying, like, well, this opens a can of worms. If I tell them this, then what do I have to tell them about this client and this client and this client? But in this sense, I think she. She was protecting, sure, client privilege things, but also her own guilt and. And practice for. For not going to the cops and saying, I think this man is violent, because she really did. But in her. In her mind, she really didn't think that he was capable of this. I mean, she didn't know he was capable of all the things he ended up doing. So I think it's a. It's a gray area, but I cannot know. I can't imagine doing that. In fact, I. There was at one point when she talked about someone that she saw, and she's like, you know, and I. I assume people are healed in some ways, but I don't know, is so and so still killing stray animals. And I'm like, oh, my God.

[B]

Right, Right. Yeah.

[A]

Could you imagine, like, if someone sat in my office and told me that I'd be like, get the. Out of my office, you sicko. I wouldn't be a very good psychiatrist?

[B]

No, no, that would be. That It'd be tough to listen to something like that. Like, I mean, I think it'd be terrible being a psychiatrist or a psychologist or a therapist because you have to listen to all these people's problems. And I think there's. I think there's something. I had a friend in high school, and she became a therapist, and there was something about her that she really loved, like, gossip. And I felt like she thought that she was gonna get into it to, like, listen to everyone's gossip. I really think that which is sick most. I don't think most, but I thought that she got into it to, like, get involved, that maybe not. You know, I think she's a rare person, but I just can't imagine getting. Becoming a psychologist, Therapist, psychiatrist, and the things that you must have to hear, especially someone like Dr. Moore when she's dealing with, like, the 0.1 of the point 1 of people who have These psychotic thoughts, obsessive thoughts of killing someone.

[A]

Yeah. And I just. I mean, you know, I check my closet four times before I go to bed. You think I could sit across from someone that told me they harms innocent animals and want to kill their spouse? I'd be like, I can't. I can't. I'm good. Yeah, but. But. And then there's other things where it's like she's so interested in the. In the. The brains, the brain, how the brain works. And. And what. And she. And she talks about it, Right. Like, everyone has these certain compulsions. I'm helping them not go through with their compulsions. And there's a certain. There's a certain type of people that do go through them. That's not who I see. She thought. Until she found out she did. But when she gets the opportunity from Robert to get all the case files that she wouldn't be able to get her hands on otherwise for all the other victims. Because he's representing Randall, because he knows Randall's innocent. She's, you know, she's excited and mean. She's thinking, this is going to be. I'm going to. I'm going to have the profile of the BH killer. I'm going to be studied for years to come. So those are the things where you go, this, of course, this woman's also in it for what she does, but it's because she's so interested in how these people think and work. But like, I. It's just. Yeah, you got to be a strong. Got to have a strong stomach for that.

[B]

No, thank you. It's so. I don't know if this would ever happen in real life where the. The accused murderer is being represented by someone who he's supposedly killed.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Well, Robert.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes, child. Yeah. Robert, representing Randall. Like, in the real world. Would a judge ever allow that? There's no way. Would he? I think she.

[A]

He. I think you can. I mean, I think probably in the real world, you can. It's just going to be. I think. Yeah, I don't think there's. I don't think that they can really. I mean, I have no idea. Like, our legal experts here, as on the. And the listeners, please let us know. But I don't think a judge can. Can really say you can't represent that person. I mean, people represent themselves.

[B]

True.

[A]

They. They mean. They talked about how messy it could be, but I think.

[B]

I mean, if you represent yourself in court, you must just get run over.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It'd be like, it'd be like, hey, Sarah, tomorrow we're going to go play in the NFL. You can play or you can hire Tom Brady to play for you, whatever you want. And you're like, no, no, I'm going to play myself.

[A]

I'm going to do it.

[B]

You know, like, that's what it's like. It's like, okay, no, no, I got this. I'm going to. I'm going to represent myself tomorrow in the NFL. Why are you doing that?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. If you're ever considering representing yourself in the NFL or in a. In a case. Yeah. Maybe get a lawyer. But you're right, I do wonder in the real world, because the only thing I would think is they could say no, because you could be throwing this. Right. You could be doing this on purpose in order.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

To make sure they don't have.

[B]

They don't have the best interest of their client in mind.

[A]

Right. But I guess if the client agrees to it, maybe that's the deal. I don't know. We'll figure that out when we start our legal podcast next year.

[B]

Coming soon.

[A]

Did you ever wonder, and am I insane that it didn't ever come out, Luke, you know, when one of her client that comes in and we know that he has a reaction about John. I mean, about Randall, because Randall was a predator and he hurt someone that he cared about.

[B]

He fingered his first girlfriend and then later raped her.

[A]

All right, let's see. I believe. Toned down.

[B]

And then. And that's what they're talking about. I know, Sarah, I'm using the exact words they use in the book.

[A]

No, I know, I know. I'm just like, okay, abused. I don't know. Sorry, go ahead.

[B]

The exact words they use in the book.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And then she was forced to sit in the front row of his class for the rest of school year.

[A]

Right. And that's it. That's why I'm like, fuck Randall, you know, like that guy, too. But I just, you know, so he gets upset for valid reasons. And then when he sees in her office, he thinks that she's trying to represent him or help him. And then her wallet and keys go missing and all that whole thing happens. And she's worried about him getting into something I can relate to. She's worried about him breaking into her house because her cat might be home. And I say, this is all I care about. If anyone breaks into my house, I don't want my cats getting out.

[B]

But Clementine.

[A]

Clementine was a black cat instead of an orange cat.

[B]

But that's doesn't check out.

[A]

It sure doesn't, but. So nothing. So she changes her locks. It's a moment of drama, all that stuff. And then later she asks him about it and he says he didn't steal her keys and wallet.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I was wondering if something else was ever going to come up, come from that. And nothing did.

[B]

I took it, I took it. Just that he was like blatantly lying. But then, but then nothing happened with that either, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're saying like either way nothing happened?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Either someone else had her keys or he never acted on it. But it was just like it was never resolved either way. Right?

[A]

Yeah. I think she even said, you know, she knew he was lying when he said that. But I thought what. It just seemed like a little bit of a. What was the point? Or maybe. And I don't. And so that one, it was a little detour that I'm not sure why, why it was taken. And I don't know if it was because we're supposed to maybe start suspecting him because he's violent or just see that she is in constant danger from the people that she talks to. So that was the only sort of little blip that I felt that I wasn't sure what the point was other than to know that Randall was a big giant pos.

[B]

It was, it was. I love the way that was written because you're obviously like, oh, that's so awful. That's like my worst nightmare is to be blamed for something I didn't do. Which it happens to all of us like at some degree, but it's something very small. But to be blamed for something like the murder of seven young 17 year old boys is awful. But then you find out that he's a piece of anyways and he should have been in prison anyways.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you're like, oh my God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean he should have been in prison for the rest of his life anyway for raping young women. But it just, it's, it's, it's well written because you don't feel bad for him after you find out what he's done.

[A]

Right. That's a hundred percent. In fact, you don't want Scott to kill him because you don't want Scott to go to jail for killing someone that's just in their house eating dinner, even though they've done awful things. But you sympathize with this sort of. Is it Stockholm syndrome? A little bit. Is that what that is? That he's in love with his dad.

[B]

You fall in love with your captor.

[A]

Yeah, even.

[B]

They even. They even brought that up where it's like. It's like, almost glorified by movie. By movies and books now, the Stockholm thing, right?

[A]

Yes, but it's real and it's bad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, yeah, luckily he's got his mom there to stop him from doing it. Luckily. She's probably still got that tracker on his truck. Right. She's following him around, making sure he's okay. Thank God she's still overprotective of him because she probably stopped that from happening. But what did you think? You know, I thought it was interesting for Robert. He. He catches on because of. Basically he breaks it down at the end that he. He. When. When Gwen asks him, how did you know it was John? You know, he was his son's pharmacist. His son was diabetic. When they did the autopsy on his son, his insulin levels were totally fine, um, or whatever it was that they. Something like that. And so he knew that he'd been getting his medication. And then he goes to the pharmacy and he. And he sees that somebody's been picking up his medication. And then he starts to put together, like, who would be picking up his medication from this pharmacy. And he. And at first he thought it was everyone at the pharmacy until he figured out it was John. So he's got this whole plan to make sure that this man is. Is. Is held responsible, including. And ended up murdering him. Which, you know, fair enough. Right. Good. But I thought. So when he first confronts Gwen with telling her that he knew all along and thinks that she knew all along.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And then he. And then he's got the knife and this and that. And then he admits, like, I'm the one. I walked in, he had just hurt Brooke. And then I just. I killed him. Right. I knew that he told me everything and I killed him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. And made it look like he stabbed himself. Right. So. And then they separate and like you said, it comes back. Whatever. However, three months later, was it when they.

[B]

The. The first. The first chapter after the book is like one month later, and the second one is two months later.

[A]

Right. So two months later he comes to her office or. Or no, he texts her, I think, and then. And. And wants to see her and they start talking. And I think the way he. I like the evolution of his character. The way he kind of is light with her at the end, even though he was going to kill her, but because he believes her and knows that she didn't do it anymore. The one thing I liked the message about him, even though you'll never ever get over this awful thing that happened to your son. He gave up his job. You know, he moved to Venice or. I don't know if he gave up his job, but he moved to like Venice beach. And he. Right. I think, Yeah, I think he quit. He quit his firm. He's doing. He's just like a lighter person in general. And it just kind of showed that the closure of. Of bringing. He brought him to justice by killing him, but he also brought him to justice publicly right by Ma. Like when everyone found out that he was actually the BH killer. Because that woman went in the flipping attic when she's showing a house. Yeah, yeah, that. I just thought it was kind of. It was kind of an interesting character thing to see. Just his. Just this like heaviness taken out of him. He seemed.

[B]

Yeah. And also at. At the end of the book, it's really like Gwen kind of gets him. Robert off when the police show up. And then she goes, oh, yeah, Robert told me everything and that John stabbed himself in the stomach. And then like, Isn't that right, Robert? And he's like, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[A]

Yeah. So she kind of.

[B]

She kind of got him off right there.

[A]

Yeah, she. She. Yeah, she made sure to cover and not like say she. Basically she had the opportunity because they didn't think. I don't think they were even suspecting anything other than suicide, but. But she had the opportunity to say, he just confessed to me, he's got a knife. Get him the hell out of my office. And instead she was. Yeah, she went along with it. And so that was probably part of him figuring out that she was telling him the truth as well.

[B]

I'm in a. I'm in a full on stare off right now with a tuxedo cat outside our door.

[A]

Is it that black and white one?

[B]

Yeah, right with the white nose, just staring at me.

[A]

Guys, stare off. There's this, this kitty that's coming around our house and I feel so bad because I think he's lost her stray. Yeah, listen to John.

[B]

Want to come inside? You come inside.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

You come inside.

[A]

Oh yeah, you want, you want number four in here?

[B]

No, but.

[A]

Okay. No, we're. I, we are feeding that cat. We have a whole. John, John. John's the best in the world. He found a. He set up this whole raccoon proof feeder. If you ever want to see it, he can show you what he did.

[B]

I can build you a raccoon proof automatic feeder.

[A]

And let me tell you something, it's not an easy feat because I have tried other things in the past and we have watched raccoons literally pick them up and walk away with them and throw them around the yard, but they'll walk down the.

[B]

They'll walk. We have like a 100 foot driveway in our old place, and they'll just pick up the whole thing and walk down the driveway with it.

[A]

Insane. Um, but John got a raccoon proof one. So we do have. We are feeding the. The strays in our neighborhood. I've got as many of them fixed as possible. As you guys probably already know, this brand new one is showing up. He looks very well taken care of and well, too. Way too well groomed to be a stray. I mean, a feral. So I think he was either dumped or astray and. Or lost. And so I want to get him trapped and get a microchip skin scan to see if he belongs to anyone, but so far, nobody in my neighborhood is looking for him. Anyway, he's here today. Back to the book. Okay, what else, what else do you got?

[B]

Well, I think one of the. One of the rules is that everyone should follow is always look in the attic before you buy a house.

[A]

Oh, good point. Because.

[B]

And if there's a row of pinky fingers in there, do not buy it.

[A]

You. Yeah, I can't imagine. I can't imagine that being something I could look past. Be like, no, we got here, there were like a few pinky, pinky fingers in the attic, but we're good. I think it's fine. I would think that, you know, you think about that when. When bad things happen. And I mean, it happens all the time, right? People, there's houses out there that terrible things have happened in, and then they go on sale or they go up for rent.

[B]

And I think you have to disclose if a murder happened in your house.

[A]

I think so too. Yeah. I mean, they obviously didn't know in this case because they listen. And also, if you're a serial killer, clean out your attic before you kill your wife. That's the other message?

[B]

No, I guess so. Yeah. Well, yeah, well, he thought he was going to kill his wife and then live, so he didn't think he was gonna have to leave his trinkets up there, right?

[A]

His tricky fingers.

[B]

I've watched his trinky fingers. I've watched things on like. Like, what's it called?

[A]

Serial.

[B]

Serial killers. Yeah, like Dexter. Dexter. TV show. Why why, why do they have to keep souvenirs of their, their dead, of their kills? Isn't it sick? I mean, it's. Yeah, it's. I one time asked a friend, I was like, we were talking about a baseball player who was a pedophile, and I'm like, why, like, why does he do. Like, why does he do that? He's like, john, like, we, we can't climb into his head because we don't. We don't have the capability. Like, we, our heads don't work like that. So we can't, we don't know why they do it because we can't. We can't bring our heads that level. That's the thing. Serial killers too. It's like, I think that's part of the reason why people are so fascinated with serial killers is because our heads, 99.999 of the population. God, our, our heads don't work like that. And so we want to try to understand how their heads, how their brains work, and we just can't wrap our minds around it.

[A]

Yeah, I don't want to know how their brains work. I just want them.

[B]

I do. I'm fascinated with it because I'm like, what, like, what went wrong in their lives or if they're born like that or if it's something that happens to them when they're young, how does that happen?

[A]

Right? And I. And that's why, to your point, that's why Gwen's, like, buzzing to actually do this profile because that's, that's what she studies. That's what she wants to know. And she has the theory about being bullied as a kid or maybe being abused as a kid. And. And you think, yeah, probably. I mean, but a lot that, that also happens to a lot of people and they don't turn around and do another awful thing to someone else. So it's just such a. Who knows? But this guy was a real sick bastard. But yeah, to clean out your. Check your attic and don't. Don't. They should have to, I don't know, just burn down houses that something like that happens in?

[B]

To be honest, sometimes they actually do. But didn't they, didn't they burn, didn't they tear down OJ's house? And then there was that guy in Cleveland, his name was like, Castro or something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he held women there for like 20 years. They just, they tore down his house. So I think a lot of times they actually do tear down the homes of this, the. As you said, in Idaho, they tore down that house.

[A]

Right.

[B]

College students off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think they actually do do that now a lot of the times. Because, I mean, first of all, it's like this. This isn't like a monument for people to come and look at and take pictures of, you know, that, like, stuff like that just like, it just needs to be put away. So. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I have another question for you about this book.

[B]

You got it.

[A]

So Robert's ex wife was shot, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And she's. You know, he was out of town when it happened. He's. He was looked into immediately. Obviously they didn't. They knew it wasn't a suspect, this and that. And she's doing a little study on it. She's like, oh, that's interesting. Shot underlines things. Something like that. And then. Oh, Antax. About how, like, the sun was home, but the door was locked from the outside.

[B]

Right, right, right, right.

[A]

And then. And then that's. Didn't go anywhere.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Am I. Am I crazy? Did it. Did we ever follow up on that? Did I miss something?

[B]

I kind of almost forgot about that because they're like, what. Who's. Who? Door locks from the outside.

[A]

Yeah. And she mentions that and she thinks it's weird. And then there's never. It's. It's just. It's just dropped. So there was just like a few things that I felt like that. Luke. Okay, whatever. We're just. He's. He's here to tell us that Randall's a pos. And. And whatever about the keys and the wallet. I can go. All right. That's just. It was just a dramatic moment in the book, letting us know her.

[B]

But what?

[A]

Jobs, danger?

[B]

What does Robert's wife being murdered.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, what does it add to the story?

[A]

And making a big deal about the lock on the outside of the door, but then also never addressing it or bring it up again. I just. Unless I'm. Unless I'm missing pages on my Kindle. And again, when I listen back on audible, or unless I just completely browned out at some point when that was brought back up and explained, it just felt like a little thing that never went anywhere.

[B]

No. I'm trying to. I'm trying to think now, like, why that would be brought up. Is it almost to, like, point a little bit of suspicion towards Robert? I don't know. I'm just. I'm spitballing here because, like, be like you. You lived in a house where you could lock your kid in from the outside. Like, why was that okay with you? I don't know. I don't know what. I don't know what it adds to the story. I'm really. I really don't.

[A]

Right, that's. That's a good.

[B]

Okay, like, is it bringing Robert's character into question?

[A]

Yeah, that's probably what it is. It's funny when you put it into AI it's like Robert's wife, Brooke Abbott, is poisoned by her husband John. No, no, you guys got that all wrong. That's. But now I just. Okay, so I did just put this in. And, and then on. This is on Goodreads, it says, did I miss the explanation of Robert's wife? I thought it was going to be an integral. It was going to be integral in the story, but just seemed to be a forgotten detail. People are saying. I was wondering the same. I was waiting for the hammer to drop last sentence, the book to allude to it or something. Nothing. Her murder was chalked up to either Robert's clients or the victims of those he defended. Made up. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, but again, they. They brought it up and, and also made a big deal about this lock situation on the son's door and then never. And it didn't go anywhere. So I thought that was a little bit of a. Felt like a nugget that A.R. torrey threw out that maybe it's not like I think authors forget by any means, but maybe, right? Maybe. But also maybe like you said, it was just a sort of misdirect for us to suspect Robert for a little bit.

[B]

Maybe. Yeah. Maybe draw, you know, question his character.

[A]

But why the lock thing? That was.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

But. Okay. All right. Okay. Okay. As long as I didn't miss anything. Husband.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What else? I don't know.

[B]

I liked. I mean, I. I mean I liked it. I thought it was a good book. You know, a couple questions here and there, but overall I really liked it. I think that we kind of covered everything, didn't we? Here's one thing, babe, that I wish we could normalize a little bit more. Dr. Moore, Gwen walks into the bar after the funeral and she's sitting there by herself and she orders a bucket of beer. A bucket of beer that should not be questioned by anybody. If I want to sit there and drink five cold beer by myself without having to ask the frickin waiter to come every time, let me drink my five beers in a fucking bucket.

[A]

Amen, honey.

[B]

Let's normalize that.

[A]

Yeah, and let's normalize women doing it too. If this woman absolutely sit down and get A bucket of beer without some asshole coming over trying to mooch one up off. Yeah, no, these are my five beers. You go get yourself one, buddy. Yeah, I agree, I agree. We can do that. I also. The one thing I was thinking of too, that was interesting. Just back to real quick. Part of Gwen and John and her representing him and her guilt that she feels even though John actually ends up. Or Robert actually ends up telling her it wasn't her fault about Brooke. But when he, when he comes in because John's so twisted, when he comes in and talks to her about his feelings and says he wants to kill his wife, et cetera, et cetera, he's telling her, oh, I'm. I'm jealous of this landscaper. And she's gonna.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

And it all turns out that she was. He was probably talking about Scott the whole time.

[B]

And then I thought, I thought Gabe was the landscaper.

[A]

Oh, right, you're correct. Probably right. Timeline wise. Sorry. Yes, that's right. And right. Because then she goes, it was Robert. Yeah. I basically told him to get rid.

[B]

Of, then get rid of your landscaper. And he got rid of him.

[A]

Yeah. And really she meant, really she meant, hey, just hire a new guy, get rid of, maybe get a lady landscaper. Those exist. Do something like that. So the guilt that she feels for basically saying, oh, I. That was Gabe and I. Yeah. So that's a tough one to get past.

[B]

Yeah. I just feel like in that job there'd be so many situations like that that I just wouldn't be willing to do it.

[A]

No. And I think. Yeah. You know, I think Robert and Gwen found each other attractive. They had a couple nice roles in the hay. I'm happy for them. But I think as far as putting this all behind them and carrying on with a relationship, it seems a little too much sometimes. You just gotta.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You gotta, you gotta cut your losses. And there's a lot of losses. There's.

[A]

Yeah. What are you giving this. How many beers you giving this book?

[B]

I'm gonna give it 9 out of 12.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I mean I loved it. I loved it. There's a couple things just question wise, I don't know. But it was very good. I'd definitely read another book by a Artory without a doubt.

[A]

Yeah, I think I downloaded one for our trip, you know, not for the book list, but again, this soon. I don't put the authors back to back like that. We don't do that. But I just to read more by her because I did like her writing even If I had questions on a couple of things, I give her four and a half out of five martinis.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Yeah. Listeners, I hope you enjoyed our discussion. Tell us all your thoughts. What did you think about the things that we brought up, the holes? What did you disagree with? Agree with? We don't care. It's all open for discussion. It's just opinion, just fun, just reading. And you get to, you get to have a lighter book next month. You're welcome. Because it's John's a lot lighter. Yeah, I know, I know. Sometimes mine will have some triggering things in them and I'm, I'm sorry, but this is what I like to read the psychological crazy thrillers again. Remind them their book next month.

[B]

John 12 days of Christmas by Debbie McComber.

[A]

So give that a. Give that your. Grab that. Oh, John just picked. Just stood up and walked away.

[B]

I have to go to the bathroom. Very, very.

[A]

Go ahead. I'll end the podcast. Don't worry. So I, John has to p. I'm wrapping up here. Join us on Patreon if you can. Can't wait to get into John's book. I'm gonna read it this starting right right away tomorrow on our, our trip to Europe. And I will let you know the Patreon short story very soon. I'll post that as well on Patreon for you. And join us on the book list spinners. See you guys next week. The book list.

[B]

The book lisp.

[A]

The book list.

[B]

The book lisp.

[A]

The book list.