Writer Wrong

Summary

---

The Book Lisp with Jon Ryan & Sarah Colonna

Episode Title: Writer Wrong
Date: October 6, 2025
Hosts: Jon Ryan & Sarah Colonna

---

Episode Overview

In this lively and candid book club episode, Jon and Sarah dive into the October book pick, The Good Lie by AR Tori. While avoiding spoilers, they share their thoughts on discovering new authors, authentic depictions in fiction (particularly about cats!), compulsive true crime consumption, and amusing personal anecdotes. The episode brims with the couple’s signature banter, bookish nitpicks, and relatable reflections on both literature and life.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Book Club Logistics & Upcoming Picks

• Main book for October: The Good Lie by AR Tori
• No spoilers until week 4; early discussions focus on themes, not plot reveals ([00:29])
• November book: 12 Days of Christmas by Debbie Macomber—Jon’s pick shifts the club from thrillers to romance, in time for the holidays ([01:51])
• Short Story for October (Patreon): The Situationship by Abby Jimenez ([03:09])

2. Author Gender and Writing Perspective

• Sarah’s introduction to AR Tori: New author for her, enjoyed the "page-turner" aspect ([06:21])
• Jon’s insight: He claims he can tell a book’s gendered perspective based on how it depicts sex, particularly masturbation scenes ([07:45])
  • "I could tell that it was a female author, by the way she writes about sex scenes, especially about masturbation. Female masturbation. You can tell." – Jon ([07:45])
• Discussion: Sarah is surprised by Jon's observation and reflects on how men and women depict sex scenes differently. Jon elaborates on stylized tropes and matter-of-factness in female-written versus male-written romance. ([08:16])

3. True Crime Consumption – Why Are We All Obsessed?

• Connection to the book: Main character Gwen is a psychiatrist who treats people with murder fantasies; prompts discussion on the pervasiveness of true crime documentaries ([10:08])
• Personal habits: Both Jon and Sarah admit to bingeing true crime series before bed, despite Sarah’s anxious tendencies ([12:31])
• Speculating about the societal fascination:
  • "Have we become numb to murder?" (Sarah, [13:19])
  • Jon suggests we're seeking answers, understanding, or maybe just entertainment, not inspiration ([14:19])
  • Both are most drawn in by the "how they caught the killer" element of these shows ([15:42])
• The ‘Staircase’ case anecdote:
  • Jon recounts his obsession with the unresolved Michael Peterson case ([16:47])
  • Setting up a "Michael Peterson camera" in their home as a joke/precaution ([18:51])
  • Sarah’s take: “It’s these conversations where husbands are putting up cameras just to make sure they don’t get accused of something... But smart, to be honest, because you never know.” ([21:17])

4. Everyday Life Tangents

• Cat Rescue: The couple’s ongoing stray cat rescue efforts; elaboration on backyard cameras (“cat camera”) and raccoon-proofing feeders ([24:04])
• Pet authenticity in books:
  • Sarah highlights The Good Lie's questionable cat details—e.g., an outdoor cat in LA, a black cat named "Clementine" (which she feels suits orange cats), and lilies toxic to cats appearing in the home ([24:45], [28:30])
  • "Strike one on the cat... you just don't write about cat if you don't know..." – Sarah ([27:11])
• Researching AR Tori: Short side exploration into the author’s career, bibliography, and speculation about whether she’s a real-life cat owner ([29:24])

5. Southern California Realism & Personal Anecdotes

• Book’s setting: Several LA and Beverly Hills locations familiar to Sarah and Jon ([34:11])
• Funny sports story: Jon’s struggle to find usable football fields in LA, even as a pro—“I’ve been kicked off of more football fields than people would have any clue. I’ve had police come…and I’m just trying to kick a football…” ([35:25])
• COVID era: Describing their “pandemic room” and Jon’s inventive (sometimes illicit) training spots ([37:24])

6. People’s Tells, Lying, and Poker Faces

• In the book: The protagonist’s mom recognizes her son’s “tell” when he lies. ([38:53])
• Real life: Jon applies this to poker games; Sarah reflects on eye contact and diversion tactics as signs of dishonesty ([39:36])
  • “I feel like I can tell when someone's not being honest…they usually won’t look you in the eye. Certain things like that…” – Sarah ([40:34])
• Banter: Sarah jokingly accuses Jon of lying as he scratches his neck (implied “tell”) ([42:05])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Author Gender and Sex Scenes:

  • Jon: “A man tries to write about it…almost gentle, like it’s a sensual thing. Women write about it very matter of factly—‘I went and knocked one out.’ Which I think is great because that's how people talk about it. Women do it.” ([08:16])
  • Sarah: “Tell us what you think…for some reason never occurred to me to even realize that.” ([10:06])

• On Watching True Crime:

  • Jon: “I think we just want to know about it—the same reason we watch the news. There’s nothing we can do to stop it…But it’s fascinating how they paint a story and how that person got caught.” ([14:19], [15:42])
  • Sarah on her own anxieties: “I always think I’m gonna get murdered…Nervous person. So I don't know how I can relax and watch Dateline…and then sleep like a baby.” ([12:31])

• On the ‘Michael Peterson Camera’:

  • Jon: “So I put in a surveillance camera called the Michael Peterson camera…to make sure…if Sarah ever falls down these stairs…they would know I didn’t push her.” ([18:51])

• On Writing About Cats Without Knowing Them:

  • Sarah: “You just don’t write about cat if you don’t know, because A, she did that... B, she named her cat Clementine and then it’s a black cat. Clementine is an orange cat name.” ([27:11])
  • Jon: “Why does it have to be [orange]?”
  • Sarah: “Because clementines are orange!” ([27:28])

• On Parenting & Poker Tells:

  • Jon: “Whenever [my poker buddy] was really weak, he’d slam his chips down…acting strong when he was weak... That’s a poker thing.” ([40:20])

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening, Book Club Update: [00:28–02:28]
• The Good Lie - First impressions, AR Tori as a new author: [06:21–10:09]
• Gendered writing styles & sex in fiction: [07:45–10:08]
• True crime in pop culture, personal obsession: [10:08–16:47]
• The ‘Staircase’ & home surveillance joke: [16:47–19:48]
• Cats, critiquing realism in books: [24:04–28:30]
• AR Tori bibliography & speculation: [29:24–30:53]
• LA settings, Jon’s sports field struggles, COVID anecdotes: [34:11–37:24]
• Spotting lies in real life and fiction: [38:53–42:14]

---

Tone & Style

• Conversational, lighthearted, and irreverent
• A blend of book club discussion, couple banter, pop culture references, and everyday life
• Often moves from serious subjects (true crime, psychological thrillers) to playful personal anecdotes

---

Final Notes

The episode is characteristic of The Book Lisp: comedically honest, sometimes tangential, and always rooted in the personal chemistry between Jon and Sarah. For book club regulars and newcomers alike, this episode is an engaging blend of literary commentary and the couple’s hilarious real-life asides.

Next up: Group reads, more unfiltered discussions, and the eternal debate—what makes a good cat name?

---

Transcript

[A]

Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Oh, hello and welcome to the Book Lisp with John Ryan and Sarah Colonna. Hi, John.

[B]

Hello. How are you?

[A]

I'm great. I feel like I just saw you a minute ago. You did okay in the living room and then we broke off into our separate corners so that we could record the podcast. It is the first week of October. Well, it's not the, I mean the first week of October kind of began last week, but it's the first Monday of October, so we are talking to you. What is it? October 6th. Crazy already. And we are discussing the Good Lie by AR Tori. If you're new here, don't go anywhere. There are no spoilers until week four. We just pick up subjects from the book and none of them are spoilers. And we talk about those for the three weeks leading up to to week four. As John has noted, it's usually harder with my books to find light hearted things to discuss because I pick up crazy books and he picks up nice romances. Speaking of John, your November book, I already posted it in the Book List Spinners. If anyone wants to check out the Book List Spinners. That's our Facebook group and we always have a running feature tab of every book from the beginning of our podcast. It's always updated with every month that. Go ahead, tell them what you're reading for November.

[B]

12 Days of Christmas by Debbie Macber.

[A]

So I mean, if you know John, you know, he had to pick a Christmas book even though he's. It feels a little effed up that I have December and you have November. It does feel wrong. I almost wanted to switch it, but then it would just then, then people would have to read psychological thrillers two months in a row and they wouldn't get a little bit of light heartedness from you.

[B]

It's actually, I think it's good timing because it goes right up until right before Thanksgiving. We'll discuss it on November 24, the week of Thanksgiving. It'll be the kickoff to the holiday season.

[A]

Okay. I like it. That is, it's a good perfect time. And then I'm gonna find one about people that get murdered on Christmas Day.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

I'm not.

[B]

There's a show that's. What's that? That murder mystery show. It's not like a murder show. It's like Murder Comes Home for the Holidays and it's all about murders that happen around the holidays.

[A]

Oh, like people get frustrated with their family.

[B]

No, not necessarily just all their.

[A]

No, their husbands get on their nerves and then they murder them in the sleep.

[B]

It just murders that happen around Christmas time. Jesus was not murdered, but Jesus he was.

[A]

So you've got your November book. If you're on Patreon, we have our short story, it is the Situation Ship by Abby Jimenez. That is the October short story because we announced those a little bit later because they're only like it's like 37 pages, this one and super cute and fun. So if you're join us on patreon, it's only $5 a month. What we do there is on the 5th, the 15th and the 25th, we do patreon exclusively, exclusive episodes. They're also videos. So there you can either watch us or you can listen to us through the your regular app because we upload it that way too. And some other fun stuff. Sometimes we do bonus chapters after a book that we've read, if there's one available. And and then the short story is always on the 15th. And those have been super fun. I've discovered new authors that way. So we're having a lot of fun. It's only $5 a month. Join us. And if you are in Fort Wayne, Indiana this week, come see me October 9th through 11th at Summit City Comedy Club. Those were late added shows. So I'm very excited to go there this week. This coming Thursday through the Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and then a little break from the road. But then I'm back at it. New Year's Eve shot out of a can. And New Year's Eve, Spokane Comedy Club. John will be with me New Year's Eve at Spokane Comedy Club. You gotta come. Those will sell out. So be sure and get your tickets. And then Tacoma, the first or the second and third, right after that, January 2nd and third. I can't believe I'm discussing January. And then I've got Chicago, St. Louis, bunch of dates, Appleton, Wisconsin. Those are all on Sierra Colona.com John so we're recording a little bit a few days ahead of time because we will be in Seattle this weekend and I know we have a lot of Seattle listeners. We will be in Seattle this weekend for the 50 greatest Seahawks of all time, celebration of which John Ryan is one of those people.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So we are on Friday night, there's like a welcome party. Saturday night there's a dinner Sunday game where you do, I think a little blue carpet walk they call it, right?

[B]

Yeah. They'll introduce all before the game in that, you know, the area. What are the tailgate area. They'll do like a blue carpet entry for all the, the players. Similar that we did two years ago for the Super bowl party, the 10 year anniversary of that. So do that. And then at halftime they're recognizing the.

[A]

50 players, greatest Seahawks of all time. There's a lot of players and John is one of them. So for it to be narrowed down to the 50 is pretty effing cool. So that'll be, that'll be on Halim. I don't know if it's televised, probably locally, I'm not sure about nationally. But hey, try to watch the game and see.

[B]

They'll, they'll probably pick up a little bit of the halftime thing because it's a big deal. But you know, it's, you never know how much the national broadcast is going to pick up.

[A]

Well, they should pick up all of it. And I'm going to flash my tits.

[B]

Awesome. When I raised the flag, they picked up all of it and they don't usually. So that was cool.

[A]

Oh, that's true. Yeah. So okay.

[B]

And you didn't even flash your tits then?

[A]

I didn't, no. But it would have been picked up probably even longer if I had. Sure. Okay. Wow. Let's talk more about how women murder their husbands over the holidays. It's so in this book. It's very dark topic of course, as mine are, but we did find some topics to talk about to you the weeks leading up and a lot of good topics. We do have a lot of good topics. But I. There's one thing that came up when it's funny, when John and I were talking about this book a little bit we haven't discussed. We wait to discuss the actual book until we talk about it with you guys. But I said, oh, it's funny. I hadn't read this author before. So Ar Tori is a new author for me and sometimes that's a leap for me to take a new author and try to. And tell you guys to read that author. And I haven't read the book so I, but I love, I've already finished it, so. And I loved it. It was a huge page turner for me. But I said, oh, I didn't. From the name. I didn't know if it was a man or a woman. And I never even thought about it while I was reading it. I never looked up is this a male author or a female author? I never thought about it. And John immediately said what that I.

[B]

Could tell that it was A female author, by the way, she writes about sex scenes, especially about masturbation. Female masturbation. You can tell.

[A]

Well, by the way. Okay, I'm just saying, I'm just letting everyone know that when you said this to me, you didn't bring up female masturbation.

[B]

Yes, I did.

[A]

No, you just plays with herself.

[B]

No. Yeah, you just shut that off. Yeah, I literally said that to you and you shut that off.

[A]

I probably thought it was you telling me to play myself.

[B]

It's literally stereotypically almost opposite of what you think when you can hear. When you see a man write about it as opposed to a woman. A man tries to write about it and they try to be almost like gentle. Like it's a sensual thing. Like, oh, I was thinking about him and my fingers wandered down south, you know, it's like that. And women are like. When women write about, they're like, oh, God, that guy. Blah, blah, blah, I went and knocked one out. Like, it's almost like they write about it very matter of factly where it's. It's. Which I think is great because that's how people talk about it. Yeah, women do it. But.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. But when I hear men write about it, they try to write about it. They try to like overdo it. And I could tell right away the ar we didn't know, but I could tell by the way she wrote about it that it was a woman authority.

[A]

That's so funny. I have never even considered that thought about it. I don't even really remember the masturbation scene, but.

[B]

Well, it wasn't a scene. It was just like her talking about it.

[A]

Like her just, you know, I know I call it a scene. I meant chat.

[B]

It's not a scene. But women, Women write about it more matter of factly.

[A]

Okay. So men are like, oh, yeah, she's got to think about me real hard to get there. And women are just like, no, I was just feeling. Feeling a little Randy and went in there. Not Randy, a person. Randy. Randy. Okay. And do you find that in a lot of. Because you read a lot of romance beach reads, as we know from this podcast. Do you? Is that. So that's a common thing. What about not masturbation scenes? What about just sex scene? Same thing.

[B]

Yeah, I can always tell if it's a male or female author.

[A]

That's so interesting.

[B]

You can almost always tell.

[A]

Okay, I'm excited for the listeners to chime in on this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell us what they think because you guys probably for some reason never occurred to me to even realize that. But good to know. And one of the other things that happens in this book, again, no spoiler. We know that the main character, Gwen, is a psychiatrist. They tell you that right away. And so she sees a lot of people. One is sort of the launching pad to most of this story. Doesn't matter, her clients. But she has a woman named Leila who comes in and she sees. So Gwen sees murderers. She sees people who fantasize about murder. Not necessarily actually murderers, but people who fantasize about murder, fantasize about being violent. And then she tries to talk them out of it. And of course, anyway, you're reading the book, you'll get there. But she has a client named Leila who seems to really fantasize maybe about killing her husband. But Gwen doesn't take her seriously at all. She just says, this girl, this woman is. She's seen too many Netflix murder documentaries. She comes into my office, ramped up from the latest one, basically, and fancies herself possibly a murderer because she thinks she's had some of the same thoughts or she thinks, like, oh, that lady's cool. I'm going to be like her. I just thought that was so funny. And I want to discuss how and why. Murder documentaries, serial killer documentaries, all the just true crime documentaries. It's true. We all, we. We consume a ton of them. I think I watch them with shock and horror, for sure, because I know they're true stories.

[B]

We almost watch it to, like, how to avoid the things they're doing.

[A]

That's a good point. Yeah, a little bit. But you. But it's interesting because you do now. There's so many of them. I mean, we curl up in bed and watch them at night before we go to bed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm a nervous Nelly. I always think I'm gonna get murdered. If you guys have ever heard my standup or ever just listen to me talk for the most part, I'm always thinking I'm going to get murdered. I. It comes from my mom. She's always thinking she's going to drop dead. I think I'm going to get murdered instead of drop dead. Anyway, I. I have a lot of paranoia, setting alarms, checking closets, things like that, when John's not around, like, just very, very nervous person. So I don't know why. I can relax and watch Dateline, which are all true stories, or the latest Netflix documentary, whatever it is, in bed and then sleep. Like it, like a baby. Hmm.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think, oh, we've been like. We become like, Numb to murder. I don't think that's what it is. I really don't. Do you?

[A]

I don't think. No, I don't. I mean, I. I hope not. I think. I think sometimes we do see people. We see evidence of people out there videoing awful things instead of doing anything. And that bothers me. It feels like sometimes people are trying to get at Other times it feels like they're actually just trying to help but don't know what to do other than maybe get a video of it. But sometimes it. That's not how it feels anyway, so in that case, I feel like we become numb to people getting hurt or murdered in front of us. Different things. I just don't. I don't think the majority of us feel that way of humans. I think the majority of us are still horrified by it. Why are we. Why is it. Is it the car accident thing? You can't look away? What is it?

[B]

Maybe. I think we just want to know about it. The same reason we watch the news. We know the news is going to be shitty every night, but we watch it. I think that it's partially like. Like interest because it's like there's nothing we can do to stop it. It's nothing. There's very, very few, very, very minor, small percentage of the population that watches it to like, do copycat crimes or be like, oh, I'm gonna be a murderer, like that person. And I think that we watch it more. I don't know. It's weird because some people must think it's sick, but it's like. It's the same reason you watch the news, I guess. I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out.

[A]

No, I think you watch the news in a very different lens than you do something, in my opinion. I think because you're. Because we know it's enter. It's billed as entertainment. It's billed as something that we're gonna sink our teeth into. And maybe for an answer, I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe hope for not. Because it drives me nuts when I watch the ones. But they don't. They have no answer at the end.

[A]

Yeah, I kind of want to know.

[B]

What, what, what would fuel someone to want to do something so heinous? Like what? Like, where does that come from and how does that happen? And then also on the other side, just how the police and the. Whatever, FBI, CIA, whatever, how they discover it and how they, like, unwrap the crime is kind of fascinating to me.

[A]

That part is definitely fat. Yeah, that. That part is definitely fascinating.

[B]

You're just given. You're given, whatever, a dead body, you have to work all the way backwards. And I guess that. I guess now that I'm talking it out loud, that's kind of the part that, to me, is, like, fascinating. Like how they come up with that, how they. How they. How they paint a story of how that person was killed.

[A]

Right. Or how that. And how the person got caught. Hopefully, if they did. Or if you watch one say that we did with that, the Amy Bradley one with the woman that disappeared from the cruise, and you don't have an answer. And then everyone has theories, and that gets everyone talking, which. That must be really weird for the families. But then again, they were taking part in it because they're hoping to get answers, too still. So I don't know. It's just a. It just. It struck me as funny that she mentions that she has a client that basically is not ever going to harm anyone. She's just probably fantasized about it too much from watching all this stuff. And I think to myself, I don't fantasize about any of it from watching this. I just. I just want to see someone get caught.

[B]

You know what the most frustrating. Yes. I want to see someone get caught, and then I want to see them sentenced at the end. Yeah, Okay. I need to know all that. But the one that's driven me crazy for the last 15 years is the Staircase. Okay. I've been following this case since, like, day one. I've watched, I don't know, 40 episodes. I mean, it got made into a Show back in 2022, and the show was great. And before that, it was like. It was like they'd come up with a documentary of, like, eight, 10 episodes, and then, like, five years later, they come up with another documentary of, like, eight episodes. And then they came up with, like, a third document. Like, it just kept on going and going and going. And you still don't know whether or not Michael Peterson pushed his wife down the stairs or if she fell. We still don't know. And the guy's. I mean, the guy gotta be close to 80 years old now. He's probably almost dead. And we still don't know what happened.

[A]

Is he still alive?

[B]

I think so. I mean, he's gotta be old now. Michael Peterson, tell.

[A]

Tell everyone about what we did during.

[B]

COVID During COVID we watched. We had, like, an upstairs area above our garage where we. We worked out. We watched. We had a. We had, like. What do you call Them recliners put in. We had like a 87 inch TV or whatever. So we. It was kind of like. It was our Covid room, pandemic room. So we'd work out there the morning, go upstairs. We had a bar up there. We'd watch tv. And we started watching this whole. All the staircase stuff. So we had to go back to the. Start it all. And then one night, I'm like, wait. Like, there's a freaking staircase right outside this door, and it's dark, so. And I'm like, I'm not going out like that. Because Sarah's a drinker, and if she falls down the stairs, I wanted. I want it to be clear that she fell down these stairs. I did not push her. So I put in a camera. I put in a surveillance camera called the Michael Peterson camera. It even came up on our app as the Michael Peterson camera, because you can name the top of the stairs to make sure that if Sarah ever falls down these stairs, like. Like Michael Peterson's wife did in this, they would know that I didn't push her. I mean, I had to make sure. And during COVID you know, you had a lot of time to do this stuff.

[A]

Yeah. And a lot of time to think about killing your wife probably, too.

[B]

And I thought more about Michael Peterson killing his wife.

[A]

I know. I. It's funny because we actually. We kind of needed one there. Right. We ended up needing one there because you want. You want. It's a. It's a outside area. Someone could have gone up, broken the glass. So we. It's. Oh, nice. We have a camera at the top of the stairs. It's nice and secure. I go on my app, I see he named it the Michael Peterson camera. I'm like, oh, my God, you did this. Because you want to make sure everyone knows that when I go tumbling down the stairs after Covid goes on too long and I've had a couple too many margaritas. It wasn't your fault.

[B]

Michael Pearson's 81.

[A]

Right. And he's free.

[B]

Kind of what. This is kind of why I hate Google. I had to put in like, five things before I just found Michael Peterson's age. Whereas if I would have just went to ChatGPT, I could have just put it in. They would have given me everything right then and there. AI's taking over, guys.

[A]

Well, when I put in his name, a bunch of other. There's. There's more than one Michael Peterson. So then I had to put him in the staircase now. But first it comes up books Michael Peterson Bronson Documentary Mark Peterson SINGER the.

[B]

Original documentary is so up because almost right after the murder happened, he hired a film crew to kind of film them in. In live time, in real time. The whole trial and all the lead up to the trial, like, in their house with him and his kids, everything. They filmed everything right after the murder. All right, what seemed weird to me. I mean, it made for great tv, but it just seemed weird to me that you'd do that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I don't know if it makes you more innocent or more guilty, but it just. It seems like a weird thing to be like, hey, I'm going on trial for killing my wife. It happened a week ago. I'm going to hire a film crew.

[A]

Right? But maybe other people would think it was weird for you to put a camera at the top of your stairs and name it something just in case I fell down.

[B]

Well, if. I'm saying if I was gonna push you down, then it would be on camera, too, baby.

[A]

I know, but it didn't show.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

You could have. You could have easily gone, like, around the back of the door and, like, kicked me.

[B]

No, I couldn't have.

[A]

Down.

[B]

There was. There was nothing back there. I would have fallen off the ledge, and then you would have been going to prison, girl. You didn't have a Michael Peterson Part 2 camera on the backside, did you?

[A]

See, this is why it's weird that we watch all these things and then we end up in these conversations where husbands are putting up cameras just to make sure they don't get accused of something. And. But smart to be honest, because you never know. They would have said, oh, he always seemed like he loved her so much. And then they would have been like, yeah, that's what they always seem like.

[B]

I. I've watched every single dateline. It's like 450 some date lines watched or listened to on the podcast. It's the same episodes, and every once while, something comes on TV and they're like, well, how did it happen? I'm like. Or like, how did he get away with it? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. If I was in his shoes, I'd have no clue. I don't know. I don't know. I'd put the body in the trunk. I don't know. I'm just like, I haven't learned anything. Like, I still have no clue how anyone gets away with murder.

[A]

Well, no, because you have to be so messed up. I mean, when we watch those and you See how it'll. I mean, we were watching one just recently again, right before we went to sleep, having a nice night and watching Murder. And it's. It's. It was. Was it the one where it was like the girl ended up killing her roommate and she tried to pin it on the roommate's boyfriend or best friend?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was like her best friend. And then they. The two women started sleeping together and. And then the woman that got jealous and she tried to pin it on the woman's boyfriend. But anyway, she just. She just one day just snaps because she's jealous, Murders her in her garage and then is just, you know, wrapping up bodies and carpets and.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah, I just.

[A]

I can't imagine being that. Not. I don't know, just. And it's funny because that's the difference between us and murderers though.

[B]

Yes. How it can take them so long to like figure out someone like that did it because she did such a shitty job. Like just take the rug in the. In the freaking living room, wrapped her friend up in it and like put it in the. Like, she just did like a terrible job of everything. And then you know how they actually got her? Cuz she's like, oh, she's been my best friend since her kid. I can't believe she's gone. Blah, blah. And then her, the girl's mom, the murder girl's mom and her were crossing each other's paths in the, in the police station. And the police saw it. She goes, oh, did you want to hug the mom? Go, oh my God, I'm so sorry. Oh my God. She's like, I don't know who that girl is. Like, wait. They're like, wait, didn't you say that that girl's dead daughter was your best friend your entire life and her mom has no clue who you are? That's how they are. Like, that's how they started getting fishy about her.

[A]

Oh, interesting. Okay, I didn't remember that part, but yeah. Anyway, Murder. Guys. Why are we watching it?

[B]

No, but I love it so much. Not murder. Murder shows.

[A]

I do want to talk about one thing because I think we all know that John and I, John by proxy, is a cat lover because of me. And now he's like a real into cats. And we have three. We've discussed this before. All rescues. We rescue cats from our backyard. In fact, we're going, John, I still feed some strays, ones that either already have their ear tips, so I don't need to trap them or. And the other day I. Look, we had a little camera back there too. Cat camera, that's what it's called. And I saw like a couple new ones hanging about. Anyways.

[B]

A couple new ones?

[A]

Yeah, a lot of stray cats in our neighborhood. So it's a way to keep an eye on them. Anyway, I was concerned because when we leave town, we have one of those gravity feeders. The food just goes straight down out of it, but they're just plastic and raccoons come and they eat out of it too. And then there's none left for the cats. So John fully raccoon proofed a feeder today. If you guys need to know, I'm not gonna get into it here, I'll do my best to show it to you, post it about it, message you. If you wanna know how he did it, he can explain it to you. Cause it's quite genius and he's very sweet to have done this. So when we go out of town from now on, the cats will for sure get the food. So anyway, that being said, the. The Ar. Tory woman who wrote this book, great author, can't wait to read more by her, insisted on Gwen the psychiatrist having a cat in this book. But she made some mistakes. Yeah, okay, so this book takes place in Los Angeles and mentions a lot of Beverly Hills area mentions that you can, you can kind of picture where. Where Gwen lives, by the way it's described in this book. At the very beginning of the book, when she gets home one afternoon, she says that her cat Clementine is greeting her from the front swing, the front porch swing or something like that. So anyway, it's very clear, the cat's outside. Okay, Listen, people in Los Angeles that live in busy neighborhoods, other than those of us feeding strays who do not belong to us, we don't let our. We don't let our cats outside, okay? I grew up in Arkansas. I. We used to let our cats outside there. My mom doesn't even let her cats outside there anymore because there are a lot of coyotes in the. In the neighborhood now too, where she lives. But I get it in general, sometimes people have indoor outdoor cats. I don't agree with it, but I understand that it. It's a thing, but it's not on a fucking busy street in Los Angeles. You don't. Okay, so ar. Tori, I love you. You're a great author. Strike one on the cat. Okay? You just don't write about cat if you don't know, because A, she did that.

[B]

B. Okay.

[A]

B, Someone else actually brought this up. In the book Listeners, our Facebook group, she named her cat Clementine, and then it's a black cat. Clementine is an orange cat name.

[B]

Why does it. Why does it have to be.

[A]

Because clementines are orange.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

They're oranges, aren't they?

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Are they not?

[B]

That's a good one. Yeah, yeah. Little. Like, little. We used to call them Christmas oranges. Like, little ones. Right.

[A]

Clementine seems like it should be a orange cat's name. I almost want to get another orange cat just to name it Clementine, but it. I. She says she pets her black fur at some point, and we realize that the cat that I thought all along was an orange cat is now black. Okay. And black cats and orange cats are both amazing cats. My first cat was a black cat, or my first by myself mischief was a black cat. So I'm just saying the two best kind of cats you can have, in my opinion, pure black or pure orange. They're just. They got character. Anyway, she confused me. I thought this one was going to be okay. So maybe this isn't a great argument, but I got another one.

[B]

Yeah, and you have a good one.

[A]

She talks about how she goes into her room in her bedroom and there's fresh lilies on the nightstand. What do we know about fresh lilies or about lilies?

[B]

Very. They're very, very toxic to cats.

[A]

They're toxic to cats. You can't have lilies in your house if you have a cat. So that's why I think ar Tori, as much as she wanted this woman to be a catwoman, she just. She. She just missed the mark a little bit on this one, because you cannot have lilies in your house because Clementine also was inside a lot. Just to be clear, the cat did not just live outside like it did when she pulled up. Cat was inside all the time as well. So this cat had easy access to lilies, which can kill a cat. And I was waiting for it to happen, and I'm glad it didn't, because I didn't want that to happen.

[B]

Artory wrote short stories called Just the Sex. Erotic shorts. Oh, erotic short stories. Back in 2014. I said, she looks younger than I thought, but the picture they have of her here is from 2014. So she's probably mid-40s now, but her age is unknown.

[A]

Oh, it says unknown. It says, Alessandra Torrey is an American. Not. I like her name. Alessandra. That's pretty. Writing educator, AI Tech CEO. Dang. She's busy. She's looks like her new Book is called A Happy Marriage or latest book. Oh, she has one called the Perfect Hus. Oh, A Happy Marriage, A Perfect Husband. I don't know. I already want to read that one. And. Okay, I see. Yeah, she's got a lot of books.

[B]

She had a lot of books. Look at the whole list.

[A]

Yeah, New York Times bestsellers is Hollywood Dirt, Black Lies, Moonshot.

[B]

One that was made into a movie.

[A]

All right. Okay. Oh, Trophy Wife. I. I think I actually have read her before because I believe I have read Trophy Wife. Anyway, to see. Did a small deep dive on her. Does she have a cat?

[B]

AI. Does she have a cat?

[A]

I don't think she does. I'm just saying because she wouldn't have said that there were fresh lies in her house. Remember when it was so funny? There was this one time our. Was it. Was it Maria? Thelma. Oh, Thelma. So this woman who has worked for us for a long time is her housekeeper. She's also our friend. Also house sits for us. Pet sits for us when we're out of town. Wonderful lady. We've known her forever. I started with her mom working and then her. And then she started working and they're just fantastic people. Well, one day she. We were out of town and she brought flowers, remember?

[B]

Yes, I do.

[A]

She brought flowers. I think it was my birthday. Or maybe it was because after our Christmas party and she said thank you because she was at our Christmas party for fun, not for to work. She was just there as our friend. And it was so funny because these are those moments where speaking like the Michael Peterson camera, where you feel a little weird to admit to people that you have cameras, you know, on the outside that you can see them and watch, so. But of course you do, right? We have their motion sensors. So if people come to our front door, back door, windows, any of that, we. We know. And that's called safety. It's fine. But you feel weird when someone's there that is supposed to be there, and then you have to tell them something that you saw, which is what had to happen.

[B]

We were out of town when she brought the flowers.

[A]

We were out of town and John said, oh, our camera went off this morning and I saw it was Thelma coming in. And she brought these, a beautiful big bouquet of flowers. And I know I love stargazer lilies. John knows that. She knows that. My favorite flowers. Well, we hadn't had a cat. We hadn't had Ralphie for that long at this point. We had been cat free for a while, and now we're cat inundated. But so she walked in with this big bouquet of flowers. You could see like lilies sticking out of all this stuff. And so I had to write her and say thank you so much for the flowers, even though I know that I saw you carrying them in. I just. I don't know if they were intended to be left there, but if they are, can you put them outside? Because unfortunately they are toxic to cat. Like, I had to figure out. I think I tried to say, like, oh, they'll eat them and it'll get messy. I just. I was. I felt so. It felt so weird. It just felt so, like basically I was buying you.

[B]

I know we weren't spying on her, but. Yeah, I know. It's like, oh, like, thanks, but like, those might kill my cat if you live inside and tell me at home on Monday. Yeah, you have to say something.

[A]

You do. But you know what? Ar Tori would have just let her wander right in, apparently.

[B]

Yeah. Let her kill all her fake cats.

[A]

I also. Because this book takes place in Beverly Hills and Los Angeles and Southern California, she talks about how Robert, the lawyer that she meets, that's a big part of this book. As you guys get to. When you get there, he works in LA and Orange County. That's a commute.

[B]

It sure is. I mean, I paid in the ass commute. Unless you have a helicopter.

[A]

Yeah, I have a hard.

[B]

It's like during rush hour, you go from here to Anaheim. It can be two hours going either way.

[A]

I feel like this guy should just be a lawyer in just one of those counties.

[B]

I don't think you can go back and forth.

[A]

No.

[B]

Two hours each way.

[A]

You're in LA and some client says they want to meet you in Anaheim at 5:00 clock on a Tuesday. Forget about it.

[B]

Forget about it, Forget about it.

[A]

But they mention a lot of places in California this has happened before. Like Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, which was our book earlier this year. There was a lot mentioned of places that we'd been because it was all very historical and kind of fun. But they mentioned Harvard Westlake in this book.

[B]

Yes, Harvard Westlake. This is. I used to. I used to kick there. I used to kick there when I was getting ready for the NFL. And here's why. In la, I don't know if there's one public park that's any nice. It has a nicer field than like weeds. Like every single nice park, every single nice field, every single nice soccer field, football field, baseball field is locked up. Like, locked up. And they'll freaking call the police on you if you go there and try to use the field.

[A]

Aggressive.

[B]

Like, even in San Diego, Carlsbad, Corona, all those places all have public fields that people can go to. LA has zero public fields. So when I. When I was first, like, living with Sarah in the off season, I had to, like, basically go on the Internet and find, like, local high schools and just be like, hey, can I come and kick at your. My name is John Ryan. I play in the NFL. Can I use your field for 45 minutes every morning? And I found Harvard Westlake. They let me use their field. I used to have to, like, kick over top of their football team as they're warming up. And that's like, the only place that you can. I could find to kick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've been kicked off of more football fields than people would have any clue. I've had police come. Police come as I'm just trying to kick a football back and forth on a fricking football field. Training for the NFL.

[A]

Where did the police come?

[B]

One time in Arizona.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I went into the. I went into the office. It was a high school. I said, no one's using your field right now, is it? It was me and my buddy who was also trying to make the NFL. I was in the NFL at the time. We said, could we use your football field? Well, we have to talk to the principal, blah, blah. They said, yes, so go start using the football field. Like 45 minutes, the police come. There's two grown men in a high school using the football field. It's like. It's like that.

[A]

Fair enough.

[B]

Well, we're not freaking there and freaking doing anything else. Like, in Canada, every field is open. You just walk onto any field you want. It's fine. For some reason, LA is like. And then even like a lot of fields that I had to kick on.

[A]

Well, you just said that was in Arizona. That one that was in Arizona. Don't blame it on la.

[B]

Arizona's tough too, but at least there's a few public parks. But it just, like, even a lot of the fields I kicked on here was basically just kicking on weeds. Like a weed field that was all bumpy. It was. It was. Wasn't worth my while to freaking go to a school, ask to use their field when I have to do it every single day. Remember, Harvard was like, let me use their field for a while.

[A]

So shout out Harvard Wesley. And then we had a. Like a friend. A friend of mine was the coach there for a bit. Is he still. I don't Remember?

[B]

No, I think he got fired or left.

[A]

He said that? Yeah, but he's somewhere else now. But remember during COVID that. That you would have to go because he had to stay. He had to try to kick in different places to try to stay in shape because he was still punting. And where was it that you went? It was like a. Was it Josh Wolf or somebody that saw you there and they were just like. You were just by yourself, running back and forth, getting your own football.

[B]

I don't know, but that. That was the story of my entire life. With a bag of footballs, kicking them one way, kicking them back the other way. Literally almost every day of my life from the time I was 7 till I was 41.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's not. It's not easy to. You think it'd be easy just to train? It's not.

[A]

No. No, it's not.

[B]

During. During COVID During COVID LA was on such lockdown that almost all the. Any public field they were taking, remember, they go to skateboard parks, they're pouring, like, sand all over the skateboard parks. They couldn't use it. And then the public. The shitty public baseball fields, they're putting the big cement picnic tables on top of the mounds. The field. Then they lock up the field and have to. I don't have to literally break into these fields just to kick a football. Like, I have to jump the fence, break into a field. I was basically doing something illegal by just kicking a football in an open field outside, every day, outside.

[A]

One last thing I want to talk about just real quick. Is that the mom in this? Nita, I believe is her name. You'll get to it if you haven't yet. Of the boy that comes home in the very beginning of the book. Her. She. She notices some things. And again, no spoiler, but she notices some things about him when he tells stories that, like, at one point he touches his face with a certain finger or something when he's talking, and she's like, that's his tell. I know he's lying. And I was curious if you have ever known anyone that has a very obvious tell when they're lying?

[B]

I don't. I don't think so. I know. Like, when I used to play my first two years of professional football in Winnipeg, we used to have a group of like 8 to 10 of us that would play poker together once a week, sometimes twice a week, like every single week. And I could by, like, especially by the end, but I could tell whenever someone was trying to bluff, like, Everyone, like, they tell their lies because you're watching everyone's so closely in, like, that environment. So I could always tell when guys were lying.

[A]

And, like, what would they do that you could tell?

[B]

Just my buddy Troy. My buddy Troy that I used to play with all the time. At least twice a week, sometimes three times a week. Whenever he had, like, a weak hand but was trying to, like, bluff, he like, kind of like slams chips down like as if, like, like acting. When he was weak, he would act strong. It's a. It's a poker thing that most people do is when they're weak, they act strong. When they're strong, they act weak.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But he would always, like, whenever he was, like, really weak, he, like, slam his chips down, kind of like trying to power the point home that he had a good hand.

[A]

Okay, so not a good poker face.

[B]

No, but he thought he did. Took all his money.

[A]

Well, because I was thinking about that because I. I feel like I can tell when someone's not being honest with me because they usually won't look you in the eye. Certain things like that won't look you in the eye, or they misdirect or don't really answer a question. But luckily, I don't think I have a lot of people that lie to me in my life. But I was trying to think if I ever knew anyone that had a good tell, and all I could think was really kind of like an ex boyfriend. I don't know if it's so much as a tell, but it would be where the conversation, it would just turn back on you.

[B]

You know, people just like, turn a conversation redirect.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's like. I mean, it's like. I guess it's a form of gaslighting, not to use that term, that's probably overused, but just kind of turn it around on you and you go, all right, hold on a second. Now the whole thing that I brought up is gone because you brought up something. And that was usually my. My hint that this person was not. Was trying not to tell me the truth about something because they wanted to switcheroo the subject. But I don't know that I've ever known anyone that has a very physical tell. But I like that in books when they put that in there and they show you. You know, someone can pick up on something because they know they're son, their daughter, their husband, their wife. So, well, like, oh, I know when she does this or that. And then I was thinking, do we have that? But I don't Think you really. I mean, we're pretty. We don't really lie to. We don't lie to each other. It's no reason.

[B]

No reason.

[A]

It's all hanging out here.

[B]

Yeah. I got nothing to hide, girl. As he scratches the back of his neck. Maybe that's my tell, baby.

[A]

Guys, he just scratched the back of his neck, which means he. He's probably hiding something, and he's probably gonna push me down the stairs tonight. And I don't think we have a Michael Peterson camera anymore.

[B]

I took it down.

[A]

Wait, we have stairs in the house? You're not.

[B]

I know. Well, we saw. We saw our cat fall down those stairs, so.

[A]

Oh, I know. And it was. And we did. Actually. Actually, we do have the camera there. We do have an indoor camera there, so. You're not going to get away with it, guys. Yeah. Okay. Well, this was fun and silly and fun. And thank you guys for listening. We have so much more little fun topics. At one point, one of the characters eats a green gummy bear. I can't wait to talk to you about that. Anyway, we got a lot of fun things to keep us busy until week four when we actually talk about the book. John, tell them your November pick again.

[B]

It is 12 days of Christmas by Debbie Macomber.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right.

[A]

And our October short story is the Situationship by Abby Jimenez. And we'll see you on the 5th on Patreon for our bonus Patreon exclusive episode. Oh, that was yesterday. If you're listening to this on Monday, it was yesterday, the 5th. Anyway, you get it. We'll see you guys. Join the Book list spinners. Follow us on Instagram at the Book List. But. Bye.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast? Are you my podcast?