This Author Says You Shouldn’t Be Intimidated by ‘The Odyssey’

Summary

The Book Review — "This Author Says You Shouldn’t Be Intimidated by ‘The Odyssey’"

New York Times Podcast | Host: Gilbert Cruz | Guests: Madeline Miller, Tony Scott | July 10, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode of The Book Review is dedicated to one of literature’s enduring cornerstones: Homer’s The Odyssey. In anticipation of Christopher Nolan’s new film adaptation, host Gilbert Cruz guides listeners through a thorough, approachable exploration of the epic. The acclaimed novelist and classicist Madeline Miller (author of The Song of Achilles and Circe) offers insight into the work’s themes, characters, history, and ongoing cultural relevance. Later, critic Tony Scott delves into the episode’s thesis: The Odyssey is not just one story but many—containing within it elements of fantasy, science fiction, horror, romance, action, and more.

---

Main Segments & Key Insights

1. The Everlasting Pull of Homer’s Odyssey

[00:30–07:40]

• Miller shares her lifelong connection to the poem, beginning with her mother reading Homer aloud to her as a child. Despite its fantastical creatures, the story’s emotional core—about longing, fear, and being "swept away by forces outside your control"—remains deeply resonant.

  • Quote:

    “Which of us has not longed sometimes to be reunited with someone that we love? Or been frightened and at a loss? Or felt like you were being swept away by forces outside your control?”
    —Madeline Miller [00:30]

• Miller argues the work’s continued survival is due to the unbroken tradition of constantly retelling and reimagining these stories.

  • Quote:

    “The tradition of retelling these stories, revisiting them is basically unbroken since they were first created. And… that’s how they keep living.”
    —Madeline Miller [02:13]

• She suggests The Iliad speaks more to youthful readers while The Odyssey grows richer with age and experience.

2. How to Approach The Odyssey as a Reader

[04:35–08:39]

• The poem was meant to be heard, not solely read; Miller recommends audiobooks or being read to, especially for newcomers.

  • “These were stories and poems that originally came out of oral tradition… I love the audiobook for these as a way to get into them… or a wonderful parent who’s reading to you.”
    —Madeline Miller [05:08]

• Don’t be intimidated by the sprawling cast or backstory. Focus on the core: Odysseus, Penelope, and Telemachus.

  • “What the Odyssey really is at its heart is the story of this man… longing for home, longing for his wife and his son… longing to get back and live a different kind of life.”
    —Madeline Miller [06:27]

• You don’t “need all the lore” to appreciate it—let side characters and references pass by if they overwhelm you.

3. Oral Tradition, Adaptation, and the Living Nature of Epic

[08:39–10:01]

• Prior to becoming canonical texts, the Iliad and Odyssey were fluid stories told by many bards who adjusted details to suit live audiences, sometimes intensifying or toning down episodes depending on the reaction.
  • “You can imagine that they would have been adjusting on the fly to who the audience was… If people are turning pale and starting to throw up, then maybe cut that part a little bit.” —Madeline Miller [09:14]

4. Rethinking Odysseus: Hero or Trickster?

[10:01–13:38]

• Odysseus is charismatic and clever, but his moral standing is ambiguous.

  • “Odysseus has run a really successful PR campaign over the centuries because people absolutely adore him… but the ancients had a much more mixed view of him… There are moments where, as a leader, you think, hmm, I would wish for a different leader if I were one of his sailors.”
    —Madeline Miller [10:20]

• Contrast between ancient and modern perceptions of heroism.

  • “Today… a hero is someone who’s virtuous, who’s a moral exemplar. I would not call Odysseus a moral exemplar.”
    —Madeline Miller [11:42]

• Miller’s favorite moment: After tricking the Cyclops by calling himself “No One,” Odysseus can’t resist revealing his real name, dooming himself out of pride.

  • “He couldn’t help himself. And I love that moment because it feels so real to his character. It feels so human.”
    —Madeline Miller [12:34]

5. The Role and Nature of the Gods

[13:38–15:15]

• Miller and Cruz agree: “The gods in the Odyssey are assholes.” (Cruz [13:44])
• The gods personify the uncertainty and chaos of the ancient world, sometimes acting as exaggerated versions of human failings—a way for people to make sense of inexplicable misfortunes.
  • “Their cruelty is just part of the challenge that we all have to get by… Sometimes we might just run afoul of a God.”
    —Madeline Miller [14:19]

6. Notable Episodes—Calypso, Circe, and Gendered Double Standards

[16:41–20:45]

• Calypso detains Odysseus for years, offering him immortality—he refuses, yearning instead for mortal life with Penelope.

  • “She gives this really wonderful speech where she says, you know, this is so unfair because the male gods do this all the time and you’re on my case because I’m a goddess… it’s a very interesting, almost proto feminist speech about… a double standard.”
    —Madeline Miller [17:31]
  • On Odysseus’s refusal:
    “He wants to go back home, that that’s more important to him than immortality… What matters is the connections you have.”
    —Madeline Miller [18:35]

• Miller admits her favorite character is Circe, a “lesser god” whose motivations and knowledge she sought to explore in her own novel:

  • “Odysseus, who was supposed to be the most curious man in ancient literature, never even asks her why she’s turning men into pigs. Seems like a key question.”
    —Madeline Miller [21:41]

7. The Universal Resonance: Why The Odyssey Survives

[23:03–24:08]

• Miller hopes her novels serve as an approachable entry point for those daunted by the original.
  • “There’s so much in these works that I think can draw people in… They keep speaking to people.”
    —Madeline Miller [23:57]

8. Book Recommendations: What to Read with (or Instead of) The Odyssey

[26:41–30:42] Madeline Miller’s “Perfect Pairings”:

1. Philoctetes by Sophocles
2. The Iliad (“Achilles is the opposite of Odysseus…”)
3. The Penelopiad by Margaret Atwood
4. Watership Down by Richard Adams (“You can even write epic about rabbits, and it’s still gripping.”)
5. I, Tituba: Black Witch of Salem by Maryse Condé
   • “Like Odysseus, [Tituba] travels through various dangers, meeting various monsters in human form… driven by a longing for homecoming.”

Alternatives for readers overwhelmed by The Odyssey:

• An American Marriage by Tayari Jones (“Inspired by the Odyssey and in conversation with it.”)
• The Buddha in the Attic by Julie Otsuka (“Written in the first person plural… one of the most stunning sort of auditory experiences.”)

---

The Odyssey as Every Genre: Tony Scott in Conversation

[33:02–45:51]

1. The Odyssey as Fantasy, Science Fiction, and Adventure

• Tony Scott likens The Odyssey to Star Trek (“to boldly go where no man has gone before” [34:06]), seeing Odysseus travel to uncharted islands, encounter monsters, new societies, and the unknown.

  • Quote:

    “It is a lot like Star Trek in a way… The Enterprise would go to a planet and like, what are these people? Are these people friendly? Are they mean?”
    —Tony Scott [34:39]

• Memorable Reading:
  Scott reads a bloody and intense passage about the Laestrygonians (giants/monsters) from Emily Wilson’s translation, highlighting the story’s horror-fantasy elements.

2. Odyssey as Ghost Story

• Odysseus’s journey to the underworld to see the dead, especially his mother, is approached as an archetypal ghost story:
  • “Three times I tried longing to touch her, but three times her ghost flew from my arms like shadows or like dreams…”
    —Tony Scott [Book 11, Emily Wilson, 37:57]

3. Nautical & Action Genres

• The poem is “about boats and storms and boats getting wrecked” ([38:39]), reminiscent of Master and Commander, blending “boats and boats and boats” with “intense action.”
• Violent action scenes (e.g., “red wedding”–style slaughter of Penelope’s suitors) are “quite gory,” paralleling Kill Bill and Game of Thrones.
  • “Odysseus aimed and shot Antinous square in the throat… the man’s lifeblood came spurting out his nostrils, thick red jets.”
    —(Robert Fagles translation read by Tony Scott) [39:54–41:16]

4. The Sexy and the Romantic

• Odysseus, while “pining for his wife,” spends years with Calypso and enjoys numerous temptations.
  • “This is a patriarchal society with some double standards… There are a lot of moments.”
    —Tony Scott [42:08]
• The reunion of Odysseus and Penelope is characterized by recognition, rediscovery, and retelling—“they have their first night back together as man and wife… retells the whole poem from each of their points of view.” ([45:22])
  • “She who glowed like a goddess spoke of all she’d endured… Odysseus… spoke of the woes he’d inflicted and those he himself had endured… She took delight in listening. Nor did sleep drift upon her eyelids until he had told her everything.” (Daniel Mendelsohn translation read by Scott [45:09])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s the type of work that the more you read it, the more you experience it and the older you get, the richer it feels.”
  —Madeline Miller [03:56]

• “Don’t be intimidated by the names. Let them go by, and focus on what’s at the heart of the story.”
  —Madeline Miller [06:30]

• “He wants to go back home. That’s more important to him than immortality.”
  —Madeline Miller [18:35]

• “Odysseus has run a really successful PR campaign over the centuries.”
  —Madeline Miller [10:20]

• “The Odyssey is the ancient epic where you need the least amount of backstory.”
  —Madeline Miller [08:11]

• “It is every genre, really.”
  —Tony Scott [33:06, paraphrased]

---

Final Takeaways

• The Odyssey isn’t just a milestone in literary history—it’s a living, adaptable, and deeply human story that continues to inspire reinterpretation and emotional resonance.
• Its core themes—longing for home, resilience, grief, and reunion—are timeless.
• There’s no “wrong way” to approach it: listen, read, revisit, or experience it through retellings and adaptations.
• Whether you're looking for action, fantasy, romance, horror, or profound psychological insight, you’ll find it in the Odyssey.

---

Timestamped Key Sections

• Opening & Miller Interview: [00:30–30:42]
• Book Recommendations: [26:41–30:42]
• Tony Scott Segment: [33:02–46:10]
• Conclusions & Credits: [46:15–end]

Episode full of warmth, humor (“The gods in the Odyssey are assholes”), literary expertise, and practical encouragement: Don’t be afraid—dive in!

Transcript

[State Farm Advertiser]

Having the right people in your corner for life's biggest milestones makes all the difference. Like a friend who's there when you're house hunting or checking out a new ride, State Farm is there too, helping you choose the coverage you need. With a State Farm agent, you know someone is there to help you along the way. And with so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help choosing a plan that fits your needs so you can continue celebrating all of life's milestones. Head to statefarm.com to get a quote. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Madeline Miller]

Which of us has not longed sometimes to be reunited with someone that we love? Or been frightened and at a loss? Or felt like you were being swept away by forces outside your control? That there's so much in these works that I think can draw people in and they're a reason why they've survived this long. It's because they keep speaking to people.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm Gilbert Cruz and this is the book review for the New York Times. Christopher Nolan's new film the Odyssey is hitting theaters soon and you still have time to read or Maybe skim the 3,000 year old poem it is based on. Or maybe you have read the Odyssey, but it's been so long that you cannot tell your Eurylochus from your Telemachus. That is where we come in. Later in the show, the Times Tony Scott is going to join us for a deep dive into all the different types of stories contained within this sprawling tale. But first we are going to explore the Odyssey's themes, characters and cultural context with classicist and author Madeline Miller. Madeline holds masters in Classics from Brown University and has taught Latin and Greek to high school students for more than a decade. But you probably know her from her best selling novels the Song of Achilles and Circe, which reimagine the ancient source material in the Iliad and the Odyssey. Madeline Miller, thank you for being here.

[Madeline Miller]

Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So, Madeline, you are the author of two bestselling books based on characters from these epics written by Homer. They have lived inside of you for a very long time. Have you been prepping for this Odyssey summer?

[Madeline Miller]

I mean, only my whole life, of course. I am just, I'm always so thrilled because the tradition of retelling these stories, revisiting them is basically unbroken since they were first created. And so I'm always excited when there is a new adaptation, a new retelling, a new perspective on these stories because that's how they keep Living is through people reimagining them.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Tell me about you and your relationship to the Odyssey. How many times have you read it? When was the first time you read it?

[Madeline Miller]

My very, very first readings of both the Iliad and the Odyssey came sort of listening to them because my mother, who also loved classics, would read me bedtime stories from selections from the Iliad and the Odyssey when I was a child. And I absolutely fell in love with them. I loved the fantastical elements, of course, but part of what I loved back then is what I still love today, which is how incredibly real they felt. Even though there are six headed Mon and Cyclopes and all of that, that ultimately these stories are incredibly human. And they are about flawed characters who experience great loss, who try and fail and try again, who get angry and make mistakes. And all of that was just utterly gripping to me. So as soon as I could read them for myself, I immediately began kind of doing that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Did you remember at that young age when your mother was reading you selections from the Odyssey? Do you remember the parts that stuck the most? There are all these little mini stories inside of the Odyssey. What really stuck with you?

[Madeline Miller]

All right, well, I'm gonna say something that's maybe a little bit of a faux pas, which is that I love the Iliad more.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Oh, what are you doing here?

[Madeline Miller]

But that is because I think, and this is a very broad generalization, but I think that the Iliad is a little bit more of a young person's story. And I think that the Odyssey is a little bit more of an older person's story because it is about longing to go back home after you have been adventuring and lost in the world. And now, as an older person, I can appreciate the Odyssey a lot more. But, you know, I think it's the type of work that the more you read it, the more you experience it, and the older you get, the richer it feels. And every time I come back to the Odyssey, I find something. Something new in it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I sort of crashed reading a young reader's version of the Odyssey to my son. It was a puffin classic, so I think a British edition and translation. And I finished reading it to him, literally last night. It was still a little intimidating for me. There's so many characters, so many names, places, so many incorrect ways to pronounce all of those characters and all of those place names. You've walked a lot of people through this. What do you tell people right at the beginning? This is what the Odyssey is about.

[Madeline Miller]

I think the first thing that I Always recommend to people who are new or who may have bogged down, and I think in this case, you're doing everything right, is that these were stories and poems that originally came out of oral tradition. They were performed, they were experienced as listeners, as an audience who were on the edge of their seat at these adventures. And so I love the audiobook for these as a way to get into them, or a wonderful parent who's reading to you. That also works, because I think that that will also help with the names. You'll hear someone else saying them, and you can also kind of let them go by. I think the other thing it's really important to remember is that this was a story that, to the ancients, was well known. And so there's a lot of kind of side characters that show up and a lot of backstory that shows up. Agamemnon comes on, the leader of the Greek forces at Troy, and complains a bunch about his wife and his situation, which is sort of meant to be a comparison to Odysseus and his wife and his situation. Now, the ancients would have known exactly who Agamemnon was, exactly who his wife, Clytemnestra, was, and how that connected to the whole story. Readers coming into it may not know that, and I think it's okay to just kind of roll with it. If you want to go and start with the Iliad, I highly recommend that. Based on the trailer, it seems like they may even be bringing in pieces from the Iliad. So starting with a little bit of Iliad might. Might not be the worst idea, but all these characters, Agamemnon, Achilles, who are kind of shadow characters, and of course, Helen, who is the stated Caus of the Trojan War, all of that is sort of lurking in the background of the Odyssey. Now, I don't think you need any of that, because what the Odyssey really is at its heart is the story of this man who has been very famous and extremely successful. He has been lauded and praised. He's won a lot of loot, he's seen a lot of things, he's done a lot of things, a lot of which were not so honorable. And yet all this while, he. He's longing for home, he's longing for his wife and his son, who he doesn't know because he's been gone for 20 years. And he's longing to get back and live a different kind of life than the life he's been living. And I think that if you can just stay focused on that, the sort of the triad at the center of the story, which is Penelope, the brilliant strategist wife, who is every bit Odysseus equal the son Telemachus and Odysseus, you can kind of let the Agamemnon, Achilles parts go by, but if you are a completist, a little bit of Iliad will help you with that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah. There is a way that modern audiences, whether they're audiences of film and TV or audiences who read books, have been trained to have to know all the backstory. We have all these series and we have prequels and we have requels and we have sequels. And it's like, I need to know all the lore before I get into this. But what you're saying is, do that if you want, go with God or go with the gods. But, you know, this is actually a very simple story at its core.

[Madeline Miller]

It is. It really is. And, you know, so many of the characters that you meet along the way, Odysseus is also meeting for the first time, and so he'll introduce you to them. You know, you'll get to hear who Circe is, because you'll see Odysseus meet her, and you'll get to experience his interaction with Calypso and the King of the winds and all of those things you'll see play out. And so I really think that the Odyssey is the ancient epic where you need the least amount of backstory.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Now, this story is not just old, this collection of stories. These characters have been around for quite a while. How long?

[Madeline Miller]

Well, you. I think you said about 3,000 years. That's about right before the Iliad and the Odyssey existed as written texts. They existed as sung and performed oral tradition. So it's hard to kind of reach back into the past and find out. Exactly. But usually kind of 700 or so is the date where these things started to really coalesce as sort of the poems we know today. But these were very much evolving works because the stories were being told and retold before an audience. And I think that what you have to imagine is that the bards, of course, would be responding to the audience. So if the audience was really loving the cannibals tearing apart Odysseus, men, like, add a few more dactylic examiners onto that part, like they're really enjoying it. Or if people are turning pale and starting to throw up, then maybe cut that part a little bit. And so you can imagine that they would have been adjusting on the fly to who the audience was, and that different versions would have been created and existing. And then at some point, they were all kind of brought together and scholars became very interested in sort of creating a correct version.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So hopefully everyone's aware at this point that the Odyssey is named after its main character, Odysseus. We have to talk about him. Tell me about. Tell me about this complicated man. Tell me how people then regarded him and how we've been meant to think about him over all these centuries.

[Madeline Miller]

So Odysseus has run a really successful PR campaign over the centuries because people absolutely adore him. And I understand why. I mean, he's clever, he's a survivor, he's very interesting. You never are quite sure what he's gonna do. He has these incredible escape. And of course, he has a great wife, so there's a reason why we love him. But the ancients had a much more mixed view of him. We see him lose his temper, all of his men die. Some of that is clearly their fault. You know, they do eat the cattle of the sun, which they're not supposed to do. And they've been warned, and he tried to warn them, they do it anyway. But there are moments where he kind of abandons them. Like he knows that he's approaching a possible dangerous land and he sets his ship outside the harbor where it's safe, and he just lets his men set their ships inside the harbor and they're gonna get destroyed. So, you know, there are moments where as a leader, you think, hmm, I would wish for a different leader if I were one of his sailors. I mean, his name itself comes from the Greek word for hated. There's a little bit of a gap between what we in the modern world think of as a hero and what the ancients thought of as a hero.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, what is that gap? I mean, he's a guy who does some not great things to his men in this book.

[Madeline Miller]

Absolutely, absolutely. So in the ancient world, hero met someone who was a warrior, who had extraordinary physical prowess and who oftentimes changed the course of the way things went. They were distinguished, they probably had a lot of loot, and they were respected in their sort of warrior circle. Today, when we use the word hero, we tend to think about someone who's virtuous, who's a moral exemplar. I would not call Odysseus a moral exemplar. And so I think some people in the modern world sort of look and they expect kind of a hero. The way we talk about heroes today, he is not that kind of hero, for sure. But I think that's what makes him so interesting is that he's very flawed. So in that sense he is very modern. There's this incredible moment after he's pulled this unreal trick with the cyclops where he has told the cyclops that his name is no one, right? And so when he finally stabs out the cyclops eye, the cyclops screams, no one's hurting me. No one's hurting me. And so therefore, you know, people ignore him and don't help him. And then Odysseus gets away, gets on the ship, he's sailing away, and he's like, by the way, it was me, Odysseus, from Ithaca, who did this to you. And you're just like, why Odysseus? He couldn't help himself. And I love that moment because it feels so real to his character. It feels so human. This is a man who has sought excellence and who has sought fame and reputation his whole life. And of course, he can't let it go. What a trick.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Of course, that's the moment that dooms Odysseus, because when he, you know, pokes out the eye, the cythops dad gets really mad. And guess what? The dad is a God. And he is a big God. He is Poseidon. He is the God of the sea. And from that moment on, Poseidon has it in for him. He wrecks Odysseus, plans to get home over and over and over again. The gods in the Odyssey are assholes.

[Madeline Miller]

Agree.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Why? What's their deal? Why are they so. Why are they so mean?

[Madeline Miller]

Such an interesting question, and I think there are so many different ways to answer it. And I think partially they represent sort of the uncertainty of the heroic world where, you know, things can turn at a moment's notice. You know, these are extremely dangerous voyages. Of course, it makes sense that the sea God would be a major antagonist because, you know, it personifies the terrors of these incredibly long voyages that they were making through uncertain lands. So I think partially it just shows the harshness of the world that they were in. But I also think that there is to some extent that the gods represent an exaggerated sense of what sort of the worst of mortals can be at times. And their cruelty is just part of the challenge that we all have to get by. We have to do the best we can and make the sacrifices, but still, sometimes we might just run afoul of a God. So I think that some of that was just, you know, people trying to understand their world, a very challenging world that they lived in. Part of what is so resonant is that we still experience those that great uncertainty and that fear and the worry about what will happen to us and will anyone care if we get sent down to the underworld? Suddenly all those fears that the ancients had, I think we still very much have.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Coming up Madeline Miller's recommendations for the books that pair best with the Odyssey

[State Farm Advertiser]

Want to make your home everyone's favorite summer destination? Shop Etsy for hosting essentials like outdoor furniture for your backyard guests. Celebrate Summer on Deck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow, Gaps on Deck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star Trustpilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in [e-mail] depending on certain loan attributes. Your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans an amount subject to lender approval. Finding ways to be financially savvy is a smart move, and knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want, like that dream home or new ride is a great feeling. That's why the State Farm Personal Price Plan can help you save when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Head to statefarm.com to get a quote. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So Poseidon, the sea God, the father of the cyclops Polyphemus, does a lot. But I'm curious if you had to point to one or two examples of the gods just being particularly vengeful in the Odyssey. What what pops to mind?

[Madeline Miller]

One of the great moments, this isn't necessarily vengeful, but one of the wonderful moments is Calypso. She is a beautiful goddess and Odysse shipwrecked on on her island. She's taken him in and fallen in love with him and the two have become lovers. And then she doesn't want to let him go. And so for seven years he spends the majority of his time of the 10 years it takes him to get back home with Calypso and she's in love with him, but he wants to get back home. And eventually the gods have to intervene and send someone down to talk to Calypso and say, you know, you got to let him go. This is we can't do this anymore. And she gives this really wonderful thing speech where she says, you know, this is so unfair because the male gods do this all the time. And you're on my case because I'm a goddess doing what you guys do all the time. It's a really interesting speech, but it also shows that the gods are inherently selfish. It's a very interesting, almost proto feminist speech about sort of a double standard that Calypso is very correctly pointing out. But we also, you know, she's been entrapping our hero when he wants to go, and she offers him immortality if he stays with her and he turns her down. And it's. I think it's one of the most amazing passages in the piece because he wants to go back home, that that's more important to him than immortality. And she says, you know, I'm prettier than your wife and she's getting. She's gonna get old. And he says, I know, but I want to go home. And that, I think, really sets us up to really care about Odysseus. And he clearly wants the human life. And he yearns for the connections he already has with other humans, not this connection with the gods. And I think that's so. It's so meaningful and resonant and shows that maybe there's something missing about the gods. It doesn't matter how beautiful they are and how wealthy they are and what they can give you. What matters is the connections you have.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And yet at the same time, he has just experienced seven years of making love with a goddess.

[Madeline Miller]

So he does not hold back in his trip.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Complicated man. I was struck by the moment when Odysseus finally is dropped off in Ithaca by some very nice people who take him on a boat and they do him a solid, and then they start to go home, and Poseidon is still quite angry, and he essentially ends their lives.

[Madeline Miller]

Yes, it is a shocking moment. And I think it represents the works real conflicted sort of attitude towards whether or not good deeds are rewarded or punished. And I think that it comes down kind of sometimes they are, sometimes they're not. And that's sort of a theme oftentimes in the ancient stories, is that is that the gods are really merciless and that their agenda, this sort of goes back to what we were saying is what matters most.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It's such a chaotic worldview.

[Madeline Miller]

Yes, it is. It really is. In some ways, reading it is so unsatisfying because you think, how. Why isn't someone gonna speak up for these nice people who followed all the right rules of being good hosts, which was considered a really a sacred responsibility in the ancient world to be a good host. And yet this terrible punishment happens to them. It feels deeply unfair. But because it's unfair, I mean, maybe this is just a dark thing to say. It feels very real.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Do you have a favorite God in this story?

[Madeline Miller]

I love the lesser gods because I find the greater gods absolutely terrifying. And so I'm always interested in the lesser gods and the nymph characters in particular. So this is a very predictable answer given the books I've written. But I do love Circe.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I didn't see that one coming.

[Madeline Miller]

I find her a gripping character and I love the witchcraft element. So I would always go with, the lesser gods are the demigods, as opposed to the major gods. I'm too frightened of them.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Let's talk about Circe. You were able to take one of these lesser gods who has a big scene in the Odyssey. Odysseus and his men come to her island. She turns them into pigs. Some other stuff happens. And you saw that, and you said, I like this lady. I can take this. I can use this. I can turn this into something. I can explore her backstory. I can explain why she is so suspicious of outsiders on her island. I could spin out what we know about her and Odysseus and their son and turn it into a novel that is now beloved.

[Madeline Miller]

I think I was really initially drawn to her because I was so frustrated by the portrait of her. I felt it was so boring. And Odysseus, who was supposed to be the most curious man in ancient literature, never even asks her why she's turning men into pigeons. Seems like a key question. And I was like, come on, we don't know anything about her. Why is she doing this? How'd she learn witchcraft? Where'd she get. You know? So I had all these questions, and I think that always is the start for me. What's amazing about the Odyssey is there literally every character could be a novel. That's the brilliance of this incredible epic work, is that it's so large. It's so large and so detailed and so exciting, and it has all these just expansiveness to it that I think all the characters can be. Can have their own. They could have their own Odyssey about them.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Did you ever think about one of those other characters? Was there ever a world in which the book was going to be Calypso and not Cersei?

[Madeline Miller]

No, there wasn't. It was always Circe for me. I just. You Know, I love a witch. I.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Who doesn't.

[Madeline Miller]

Right. The witchcraft element was really fascinating to me because it is not divine power. It's really its own type of thing. And it seems to come not from sort of the way divine power comes, which is like just your. But it comes from a sort of craft and study and knowledge.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Do you think there are a ton of people who have read Circe and have not read the Odyssey?

[Madeline Miller]

Well, you know, I always have my Latin teacher agenda, so I'm always thrilled if someone reads Circe or Song of Achilles and then decides to read the Iliad or the Odyssey. That is always a huge honor for me. But I also understand that there are sometimes roadblocks to picking these stories up, that they can feel alienating or they can feel fusty and old, or they can feel inaccessible because of all the names or because of sort of the backstory that the ancients would have taken for granted, but which we don't necessarily have. So I also really hoped that my books could be a way in. You know, it's always a joy to see someone realize, wow, this is both such a strange work, but also feels so resonant. Which of us has not longed sometimes to be reunited with someone that we love or been frightened and at a loss, or felt like you were being swept away by forces outside your control, that there's so much in these works that I think can draw people in and they're a reason why they've survived this long. It's because they keep speaking to people.

[Gilbert Cruz]

If you don't mind me asking, is your mother still around?

[Madeline Miller]

She, sadly is not, but she did get to see both my books come out and was very excited. She actually felt quite embarrassed that she'd read me these stories because she's like, they're so inappropriate. And in a way, they are. There's plenty of violence. I mean, if you are reading the Iliad in Greek, you are learning a lot of internal organ vocabulary. But I think she really understood her daughter and this. That part of what I was connecting to was that was that very human quality. She also took me to Greece, which I could not have written either of these books without going to Greece and the air and the sun on the water and all of that. So I'm excited for all the visuals whenever that are coming to us, I hope.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Are you going to see the movie?

[Madeline Miller]

I plan to. I plan to. I'm very interested to hear people's thoughts about it and to experience very briefly,

[Gilbert Cruz]

what is your understanding of how scholars and classical experts are already thinking of this. You know, you have sort of the segment of people that are already saying, well, that armor is not correct. This is not what they, you know, or this is not what they would have worn, or this is not the language that they would have used.

[Madeline Miller]

I mean, I think. I think classicists, for the most part, understand that reception is a wonderful way to keep these stories going. And, you know, we can't hurt Homer. Homer's gonna just fine. And Homer himself probably wasn't even one person. Right. That these stories came from probably many different traditions and bards. And maybe there was one person who put it all together, but maybe there wasn't. And the Iliad and the Odyssey themselves have inconsistencies and things that are a little bit anachronistic at times. And there have been so many different versions of the story told and retold and retold. So if this can reignite some excitement. Excitement in the humanities and in classics, all the classical scholars I know would be thrilled. Whatever the armor looks like.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, it's like how Top gun increased enrollment in the Navy. This is going to send young students to enroll in Greek study. Madeline, we've had a wonderful conversation. We are approaching the end. I cannot let you go. I just can't without asking you for some book recommendations for people who are. Have read the Odyssey or might be planning to do so.

[Madeline Miller]

I am so ready.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Excellent. What do you think are five books that would pair well with the Odyssey?

[Madeline Miller]

All right. The tragedy by Sophocles called Philoctetes. There are lots of good translations out there, so definitely that one. To give you kind of a different perspective on Odysseus from the ancient world, I also really recommend. I mean, this is an obvious answer, but the Iliad, because Achilles is such a different type of hero. Achilles is the opposite of Odysseus, as Achilles says in the Iliad. I hate, like the Gates of Death, the man who says one thing and hides another in his heart, which of course, is the definition of Odysseus. I think it will be interesting to look at a hero who is so. Whose problem is that he tells the truth too much. So that's an obvious choice. I'm going to also recommend the Penelope ad, Which is Margaret Atwood's sort of Penelope's version, but also gets into some of the enslaved women that Odysseus murders. One of the most disturbing parts of the Odyssey, I think. And I'm going to recommend Watership Down. Watership down goes to show just how powerful epic is because you can even write it about rabbits, and it's still gripping. I also love Watership down because Watership down is very much in conversation with the classics. It's really modeled on the Aeneid, but the first half of the Aeneid is modeled on the Odyssey. So you could imagine that the first half of Watership down is kind of like the Odyssey, and the second half is kind of like the Iliad. So you get like a little mini Odyssey, but starring rabbits instead.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Perfect.

[Madeline Miller]

So, you know, if you want a great epic that is very much has classical roots, but is not the Odyssey, Watership Down's the way to go.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is such a surprising and wonderful recommendation. I'm on it.

[Madeline Miller]

Awesome. Well, I'm going to recommend Kind of in that same Line, which is one of my favorite stories about a longing for Nostos. It's one of my favorite books of all time, actually. It's called I, Tituba Black Witch of Salem by Maryse Kande. And in it, like Odysseus, the character sort of travels through various dangers, meeting various monsters in human form. There's a fantastical element as well. But so much of the story is driven by a longing for homecoming and for returning that I think it really mirrors the movement of the Odyssey. The character, the main character, is complicated and incredibly intelligent and really interesting. And it just. I feel like it just sits alongside the Odyssey in such a wonderful way.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Those are all fantastic. Thank you. All right, Madeline. It is possible that some people will buy the Odyssey in book form and they'll really give it the old college try, and they just will not be able to get through it. And that's. I think that should be okay. But are there other books that you might recommend to those people that would sort of scratch the Odyssey itch?

[Madeline Miller]

Absolutely. So, first of all, a great place to start is An American Marriage by Tehari Jones, which was actually inspired by the Odyssey and is in conversation with it. You don't have to know anything about the Odyssey. In fact, I'm so embarrassed to admit this, but the first time I read it, I didn't even connect it to the Odyssey because I was so gripped by the story. Then I sort of realized belatedly, and I was like, oh, of course, of course. And so. So it's also about a husband and wife who are separated and trying to get back to each other, and sort of the perils that each of them encounters during that separation is fabulous. This is another, a little bit unusual, but one of my favorite books of all time is Buddha in the attic. And part of what I love about it is that it's written in the first person plural. So it's written as a we. There's such a oral quality to it. So I have to go with that. Cause I think it's one of the most stunning sort of auditory experiences.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Madeline, what a delight you've been. This has been such a great conversation for people who have read the Odyssey, for people who have not read the Odyssey but want to read the Odyssey, this is great.

[Madeline Miller]

It was such a pleasure to be here.

[Gilbert Cruz]

No matter what you're in the mood to read, whether it's science fiction, a romance, a ghost story. Tony Scott, the Times's critic in the large, joins us to explain how you can find almost every genre in the Odyssey.

[Tony Scott]

PNC bank brings you call of the Wild Money Moves.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Shh.

[Tony Scott]

Listen.

[Madeline Miller]

That's the sound of the. Of a multi level marketing pitch.

[Tony Scott]

This is life changing, you guys.

[Madeline Miller]

Sounds like she wants you to buy lots of essential oils.

[Tony Scott]

They are so essential.

[Madeline Miller]

And then have all your friends buy essential oils.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Are you more of a geranium or lavender fan?

[Madeline Miller]

Don't look her in the eyes.

[Tony Scott]

Guard against Wild money moves with PNC Bank. Brilliantly boring since 1865. Lots of places can expose you to identity theft.

[Madeline Miller]

Oh, no.

[Tony Scott]

That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, we alert you right away. All through text, phone, email, or the LifeLock app. Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Save up to 30% your first [e-mail] podcast terms apply. Queen Carvania stood haloed by the morning sun.

[Gilbert Cruz]

An army hung on her every word.

[Madeline Miller]

My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. Twas a lovely suv, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight we feast. An offer you can feast on.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Sell your car today on Carvana.

[Madeline Miller]

Pickup fees may apply.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Tony Scott, welcome to the Book Review podcast.

[Tony Scott]

Great to be here, Gilbert.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Tony, you're here to talk about the Odyssey of chorus. It's a giant story and you have a new piece where you argue that it's possible that it is. All the stories you write, that no matter what I or anyone else might be looking for, we're likely to find it in Homer's 12,109 lines. Is that the right count?

[Tony Scott]

That's the count in Greek

[Gilbert Cruz]

and you've read a lot of versions?

[Tony Scott]

Yes, I've read or read in quite a few versions.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So there are many different ways to approach the story in terms of the different translations that have been published in English over the years. But even in the story itself, there are a lot of different entry points. There are a lot of different ways in which you can see the Odyssey. You know, I'm very far from a classicist. I'm more of a genre guy myself. And I would love to start with the idea that the Odyssey is a fantasy or even a science fiction story.

[Tony Scott]

Yeah, well, if you think about what the Odyssey is, some of it is Odysseus and his crewmates having fought the war in Troy, going off to boldly go where no man has gone before. I mean, in a way, it's the origin of a lot of science fiction because it is this trip beyond the boundaries of the known world to these islands where there are monsters and strange creatures, there are giants, there are cyclopses, there are strange cultures and civilizations that Odysseus finds his way into and different kinds of societies. It is a lot like Star Trek in a way. The way that, you know, the Enterprise would go to a planet and like, what are these people? Are these people friendly? Are they mean? What are their ways? What are their habits? We'll greet them and hope that they give us hospitality. And that happens again and again.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I love that interpretation. Mary Shelley might disagree. She might say, no, I am the first science fiction. But I do like this interpretation. I think something that is very clear is there is a direct line from the Odyssey to all of the swords and sandal type fantasy movies that we saw in the 1950s and that we continued to see. The idea of people going to a foreign land and as you say, fighting monsters or fighting skeletons that come out of the ground, or fighting a giant, one eyed man.

[Tony Scott]

A giant one eyed man.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You know, to that point, is there a particular section in the Odyssey that feels overly fantastical that you'd like to maybe read out loud?

[Tony Scott]

Here's a very brief section, just a few lines from book 10, where they're on this island called Lestrygonia. And the Laestrygonians are among the more outlandish creatures that are encountered here. And here is the great battle. This is from Emily Wilson's translation. Hearing the mighty Laestrygonians thronged from all sides. Not human like, but giants with boulders bigger than a man could lift. They pelted at us from the cliffs. We heard the dreadful uproar of ships being broken and dying men.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Those dying men, Just to go back to your Star Trek reference, those are the red shirts, the original red shirts.

[Tony Scott]

There's a lot I have to say. You know, Odysseus is a brave captain and a war hero, but he loses so many ships and so many men. Like, hey, guys, who wants to go out on a voyage? You'd see everybody in Ithaca. Like, no, sorry, I got a thing. I can't. Can't do it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Milk my cow. All right, so the Odyssey can be seen as science fiction, certainly can be seen as fantasy. Can it be seen as a ghost story?

[Tony Scott]

It can, because when they sail off to the end of the world, to this sort of boundary zone where the living and the dead can commingle and can see each other. And Odysseus learns a lot of things there. He sees some of the men that he's lost, and he sees also the ghost of his own mother. And it's a very. It's a harrowing and also a very moving scene in the way that ghost stories, very often they're scary, but they also have this undercurrent of emotion, of grief or of longing. So this again, in the Wilson translation, is Odysseus recounting his encounter with the ghost of his mother. He says, then in my heart, I wanted to embrace the spirit of my mother. She was dead and I did not know how. Three times I tried longing to touch her, but three times her ghost flew from my arms like shadows or like dreams. Sharp pain pierced deeper in me as I cried.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It is incredible how this story, maybe it's not incredible because it's one of the greatest stories ever told, but is able to balance these moments of action or fright or great imagination with the basic emotion of a son just wanting more than anything else to see his deceased mother again. Yeah, okay. The Odyssey, among other things, is also a story about adventures on the high seas. I really forgot how much of this was just about boats in storms and boats getting wrecked and boats and boats

[Tony Scott]

and boats and boats, boats and boats and boats. I thought of. I mean, as I was reading again, I kept thinking of like. Of master and Commander, you know, And I think of like, Russell Crowe and, you know, nautical writing is its own kind of genre and its own kind of thing. And I love this passage, if I could, from the Robert Fitzgerald translation. You can sort of feel the salt spray. A great wave drove at him with toppling crest, spinning him round in one tremendous blow. And he went plunging overboard. The oar haft wrenched from his grip a gust that came on howling at the same instant Broke his mast in two Hurling his yard and sail far out to lure.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Have you ever been in a storm this intense?

[Tony Scott]

No. When I'm on the boat, it's dead flat calm. That's when I'll get on the boat.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You sound like you're not interested in having action on the high seas. The Odyssey does have moments of intense action. It is, I keep saying, a book. Of course, it's not a book. It's an epic poem. When you refer to books, you really talk about chapters within this long story. But it is a sequel to a war story. But it has tons of its own action.

[Tony Scott]

It has tons of its own action, some of which is quite gory. The Iliad has the great combat scenes and the great battles. This is more kind of Odysseus going hand to hand with the various monsters and creatures. And then at the end, he comes back to Ithaca. This is not a spoiler, by the way, because Homer tells you right at the beginning of the whole story what's gonna happen. But. But all of these suitors, there's a bunch of guys who are hanging out at Odysseus house because they think he's dead and they're trying to marry his wife, Penelope, and she's putting them off. And so Odysseus and his son just slaughter these guys and it's an absolute bloodbath. I mean, really, it reminded me of, like, Kill Bill. It's sort of that. And I'll show you what I mean. This is from the Robert Fagel's translation, but Odysseus aimed and shot Antinous square in the throat. And the point went stabbing clear through the soft neck and out and off to the side. He pitched. The cup dropped from his grasp and the shaft sank home. And the man's lifeblood came spurting out his nostrils. Thick red jets. A sudden thrust of his foot. He kicked away the table. Food showered across the floor, the bread and meats soaked in a swirl of bloody filth.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It's quite bloody, to use a modern reference. It is sort of red wedding adjacent. If you're familiar with this moment. In Game of Thrones or the Game of Thrones TV adaptation, you have these people that are in your home that you've either invited or who are taking advantage of hospitality, and then you lock the doors and wipe them all out.

[Tony Scott]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I was reading a young reader's version to my son. He looked at me and I could tell in his eyes he Was thinking, hell yeah, this is the stuff I've been waiting for.

[Tony Scott]

And it's the father son moment.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Absolutely. Me and dad, definitely. So the Odyssey clearly has revenge, it has boat stuff. It is a fantastical story. It's an action packed story. It's a violent story. Is it a sexy story?

[Tony Scott]

Well, yes, it is. Cause Odysseus, you know, as he's out on the road, this is a patriarchal society with some double standards. So even though Penelope is at home staying absolutely faithful to him, he's got a lot of temptations. And he always, you know, there's always an excuse. So there are a lot of moments, sort of. And there's one in particular when he washes up on the shore of an island. And there's Princess Nausicaa is there and she's doing her laundry with her servants. And somehow in the shipwreck that got him there, he's lost all his clothes. So he's naked on the beach. Cause he's come out of the bushes in his birthday suit. And he says, now girls, this is from Emily Wilson's translation. Now girls, wait at a distance here so I can wash my grimy back and rub myself with oil. It has been quite a while since I have done it. Please let me wash in private. I am shy of being naked with you pretty girls with lovely hair.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Why did you read it that way, Tony?

[Tony Scott]

I figure that's how he would have said it. How would you say it if you were in that situation?

[Gilbert Cruz]

I cannot imagine ever being in that situation. Odysseus does benefit from these patriarchal double standards. He really wants to get home to his wife. That's all he wants to do. And yet also he can spend some time, you know, making love to goddesses on islands for several years. But he does get home to his wife. And he's been pining for her all this time. She's been pining for him. There is a sense that this is also just a good old love story.

[Tony Scott]

It's a beautiful love story. And the way that it happens in those last books, when he's coming home, he comes back to Ithaca. And at first he's in disguise. Cause he sort of wants to see what's going on. He wants partly to see if Penelope has been true to him. He also doesn't want the suitors to recognize him. And so he and Penelope have to kind of rediscover each other. Cause it's also, this disguise is kind of a metaphor for the years that have come up between them. The ways that they are strangers to each other after all this time and have to reestablish this bond, this intimacy, this marriage. And it happens in a very beautiful way. They have their first night back together as man and wife. And one of the things that happens that I think is so lovely about that is that in their sort of post coital glow, each one tells each other what's happened, in effect retells the whole poem that we've just been reading from each of their points of view. And this is how Daniel Mendelsohn, I think, very beautifully writes that scene. When the two had taken their pleasure in love's entrancing delights, they took their delight in stories, each telling a tale to the other. She who glowed like a goddess spoke of all she'd endured in these halls watching that gang of suitors who wreaked so much hellish havoc and who on her account slaughtered many a head of cattle and fatted sheep and drained so much wine from the huge storage jars, while Odysseus, sprung from Zeus, spoke of the woes he'd inflicted on people and those he himself had endured with such great anguish. He told it all, and she took delight in listening. Nor did sleep drift upon her eyelids until he had told her everything.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is beautiful.

[Tony Scott]

Isn't that beautiful?

[Gilbert Cruz]

Tony Scott, you did the work. You read translation after translation. We've talked about this great story as being a story of stories, maybe all the stories. I'm convinced I'm going to go back and read it again.

[Tony Scott]

All right, tell me how it goes.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Sure. Tony Scott, thank you so much for joining the Book Review podcast.

[Tony Scott]

Been a pleasure, Gilbert.

[Gilbert Cruz]

The Book Review is produced by Sarah Diamond, Amy Pearl and Patricia Sulbaran. It's edited by Tracy Mumford and mixed this week by Daniel Ramirez. Original music by Dan Powell and Elisheva Etu. Special thanks to Dalia Haddad. We want to hear what you think about the show, so send us an [e-mail] I'm Gilbert Cruz. Thanks for listening.

[Tony Scott]

PNC bank brings you call of the wild Money moves.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Shh.

[Tony Scott]

Listen.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Hey, guys.

[Madeline Miller]

That's the sound of a multi level marketing pitch.

[Tony Scott]

This is life changing, you guys.

[Madeline Miller]

Sounds like she wants you to buy lots of essential oils.

[Tony Scott]

They are so essential.

[Madeline Miller]

And then have all your friends buy essential oils.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Are you more of a geranium or lavender fan?

[Madeline Miller]

Don't look her in the eyes.

[Tony Scott]

Guard against wild money moves with PNC Bank.

[Madeline Miller]

Brilliantly boring. Since 1865,