Book Club: Let’s Talk About Alan Hollinghurst’s ‘Our Evenings’

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Book Review – Book Club: Let’s Talk About Alan Hollinghurst’s ‘Our Evenings’

Episode Release Date: January 31, 2025
Host: MJ Franklin, Editor at The New York Times Book Review
Guests: Emily Akin, Greg Coles, Scott Heller

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Introduction

In this episode of The Book Review podcast, host MJ Franklin leads a compelling discussion on Alan Hollinghurst’s latest novel, “Our Evenings.” Joined by fellow editors Emily Akin, Greg Coles, and newcomer Scott Heller, the panel delves deep into the book’s intricate narrative, exploring its themes, character development, and structural nuances.

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About Alan Hollinghurst and “Our Evenings”

MJ Franklin begins by highlighting Hollinghurst’s illustrious career, noting his Booker Prize-winning novel “The Line of Beauty” and other notable works such as “The Swimming Pool Library,” “The Folding Star,” and “The Stranger’s Child.” Franklin describes Hollinghurst as a masterful writer who poetically captures the evolution of gay life in Britain.

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Initial Impressions and General Thoughts

Emily Akin praises the novel as a "beautifully written surprise" and likens Hollinghurst’s style to that of Henry James, emphasizing the novel’s elegiac tone and nuanced character studies. She remarks, “This felt like a very Jamesian novel in tone to me.” (07:04)

Scott Heller echoes similar sentiments, appreciating the return to Hollinghurst’s themes of romance and elegy. He highlights the rich character interactions and set pieces that add depth to the narrative, such as the Devon beach trip, which he describes as “so rich and full.” (08:53)

Greg Coles discusses the book’s language and psychological depth, noting how Hollinghurst meticulously explores the protagonist’s inner world. He emphasizes the importance of the novel’s structure in conveying Dave Wynn’s experiences and personal growth. (05:48)

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Exploring the Novel’s Structure and Set Pieces

The panel delves into the book’s episodic structure, discussing whether it enhances or detracts from the overall narrative.

• Emily Akin appreciates the episodic nature, stating, “The reality effect for me was completely there. This is how a life unfolds with these discrete episodes that take you places where you've not been before.” (18:13)

• Greg Coles acknowledges his initial impatience with the structure but ultimately finds it rewarding as the themes become clearer towards the end. He cites the scavenger hunt scene as a standout moment that expertly handles the dynamics between characters. (17:15)

• Scott Heller finds the non-linear progression satisfying, enjoying the element of surprise that keeps the reader engaged. He notes, “I liked that you would jump ahead and not have your bearings at the beginning. I think that element of surprise helps keep you interested.” (18:13)

Notable Set Pieces Discussed:

• Devon Beach Trip: Highlighted for its richness and the protagonist’s sexual awakening. (06:13)
• School Scavenger Hunt: Praised for showcasing character relationships and social dynamics. (17:36)
• Book Signing Scene: Appreciated for its comedic elements and character development. (20:03)

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Character Analysis: Dave Wynn and Relationships

The discussion shifts to the protagonist, Dave Wynn, his relationships, and his navigation of identity.

• Dave Wynn is portrayed as a mixed-race British actor grappling with his heritage, sexuality, and societal expectations. His relationships serve as anchors and reflect his personal growth.

• Love Life:

  • Scott Heller feels the romantic elements are more subdued compared to Hollinghurst’s previous works, finding Dave’s relationships intriguing yet somewhat detached. “The romance here in this book did feel so tamped down, so tamed.” (36:46)

  • Emily Akin differentiates the lovers, appreciating the varied dynamics but noting that they don’t always add substantial weight to the narrative. “I felt Chris was a man who pursued Dave and Dave is flattered and is attracted. But it became a little boring.” (35:35)

  • MJ Franklin echoes sentiments about the subdued romance, expressing a longing for the rawness found in Hollinghurst’s earlier novels. (36:25)

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Themes: Identity, Race, and Sexuality

The panel explores the central themes of the novel:

• Identity and Heritage:

  • Dave’s mixed-race background serves as a constant reminder of his outsider status. His relationship with his Burmese heritage is complex and distant, contributing to his internal conflict. (27:30)

  • Emily Akin connects this to Henry James’s portrayal of Americans in Europe, highlighting Dave’s perpetual outsider status. (28:35)

• Race and Xenophobia:

  • The novel culminates in Dave’s tragic death during a xenophobic attack, symbolizing the pervasive racism that underpins the narrative. Scott Heller describes this as a powerful repudiation of the previously depicted cultural progress. “It was really wrenching and it was just... a repudiation of so much of what comes before it.” (40:36)

  • Emily Akin notes how microaggressions and societal pressures shape the characters’ lives, even when depicted as isolated incidents. (25:36)

• Sexuality and Acceptance:

  • The novel portrays Dave’s journey of self-acceptance amidst societal and familial challenges. His mother’s long-term lesbian relationship parallels his own struggles. (15:46)

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Structural Nuances and Literary Style

Greg Coles emphasizes Hollinghurst’s elegant and sinuous prose, likening it to Henry James’s attention to emotional nuance. He appreciates the detailed psychological realism and recommends the audiobook for its excellent narration by Prasanna Puwanaraja. (09:50)

Emily Akin complements this by discussing the deep architectural planning behind the episodic scenes, tying them to overarching themes of inheritance and self-discovery. “They're all really good and I recommend them.” (04:29)

MJ Franklin and Greg Coles discuss the influence of music and structured thematic elements, referencing a piano exercise that metaphorically maps onto the novel’s structure. (31:11)

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Listener Feedback and Online Discussion

The hosts share insightful comments from listeners around the world, highlighting diverse interpretations and emotional responses to the novel.

• April from Australia describes the book as a “slow burn” that became profoundly impactful after the initial pages. (25:36)

• Blair from Tampa praises the descriptive language and immersive scenes, likening the narrative voice to Jeremy Irons narrating Brideshead Revisited. (25:36)

• Macy Jane from Boise remarks on the portrayal of oppressive social forces and their subtle yet pervasive impact on the characters. (25:36)

• Seville from Austin, Texas admires Dave’s work ethic and Hollinghurst’s lyrical writing style. (26:19)

These comments underscore the novel’s ability to resonate on multiple levels, from its lyrical prose to its profound thematic explorations.

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Discussion on Hollinghurst’s Portrayal of a Character of Color

The panel addresses the sensitive portrayal of Dave Wynn, a mixed-race character, by a white author.

• Greg Coles initially expressed skepticism but acknowledges that Hollinghurst successfully embodies Dave’s character without it feeling forced or inauthentic. “He fully inhabits Dave. It doesn't ever feel like an act of ventriloquism.” (27:30)

• Emily Akin draws parallels to Henry James, noting Hollinghurst’s ability to portray an outsider’s perspective authentically. (28:35)

• MJ Franklin shares her initial concerns but concedes that the portrayal feels true to life, especially in depicting microaggressions and societal biases. (27:52)

• Greg Coles adds that Dave’s limited connection to his Burmese heritage adds depth to his character’s internal struggle. (27:30)

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Final Thoughts on the Ending

The panel discusses the novel’s conclusion, which sees Dave’s untimely death due to a xenophobic attack and the subsequent completion of his manuscript by Richard.

• Emily Akin finds the ending abrupt and feels it serves as a heavy-handed deus ex machina, detracting from the novel’s otherwise meticulous construction. “I have to admit that I was not happy about the ending. It felt like a contrivance.” (38:05)

• Scott Heller defends the ending’s impact, describing it as a powerful jolt that underscores the novel’s themes of racism and social regression. “It was really wrenching and it was just... a repudiation of so much of what comes before it.” (40:36)

• MJ Franklin concurs, acknowledging both the emotional weight and the structural abruptness of the finale. “I can't imagine wanting more of those scenes, but it felt abrupt to me. It's a jolt...” (40:36)

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Book Recommendations

Before concluding, the panel shares a series of book recommendations that resonate with the themes and styles discussed in “Our Evenings.”

• Greg Coles recommends “Fun Home” by Alison Bechdel, a graphic memoir exploring coming of age and queer identity.

• Scott Heller suggests:

  • Patrick Stewart’s Memoirs – for insights into the life of a British actor.
  • “Mona Acts Out” by Misha Berlinski – a comic novel set in the American theater scene.
  • “A Natural” by Ross Raisin – a story of a young British soccer player grappling with his sexuality.

• Emily Akin recommends:

  • “Le Grand Molne” by Alain Fournier – a coming-of-age story that influenced “The Great Gatsby.”
  • Additional suggestions include Hollinghurst’s own backlist (“The Swimming Pool Library,” “The Line of Beauty,” and “Sparsholt”) and works like “Hearts Invisible Furies” by John Boyne and “The New Life” by Tom Cru.

• MJ Franklin adds her personal recommendations, emphasizing Hollinghurst’s past works and other lyrical authors who explore similar themes.

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Conclusion

MJ Franklin wraps up the discussion by encouraging listeners to join the ongoing conversation online and to look forward to the February book club selection, “Orbital” by Samantha Harvey. She emphasizes the rich, multifaceted discussion “Our Evenings” has inspired and invites readers to engage further through the New York Times platforms.

Notable Quotes:

• Emily Akin: “This felt like a very Jamesian novel in tone to me.”
• Scott Heller: “It's a genial repudiation of so much of what comes before it.”
• Greg Coles: “He fully inhabits Dave. It doesn't ever feel like an act of ventriloquism.”
• MJ Franklin: “I can't imagine wanting more of those scenes, but it felt abrupt to me. It's a jolt...”

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This comprehensive discussion provides listeners with deep insights into “Our Evenings,” highlighting its literary significance, thematic richness, and the nuanced performances of its characters. Whether you’re a longtime fan of Hollinghurst or new to his work, this episode offers valuable perspectives to enhance your reading experience.

Transcript

[MJ Franklin]

The New York Times app has all this stuff that you may not have seen.

[Emily Akin]

The way the tabs are at the top with all of the different sections, I can immediately navigate to something that.

[Scott Heller]

Matches what I'm feeling, click wordle or.

[Emily Akin]

Connections and then swipe over to read today's headlines. There's an article next to a recipe next to games, and it's just easy to get everything in one place.

[Scott Heller]

This app is essential.

[Emily Akin]

The New York Times app All of the Times all in one place. Download it [e-mail] app.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review Podcast. On this week's episode, our monthly book club discussion hosted by our editor, M.J. franklin. Let's turn to him now.

[MJ Franklin]

Hello and welcome to another book club episode of the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review and for this month's Book Review Book Club, we're talking about our Evenings by Alan Hollinghurst. Alan Hollinghurst is a literary titan with a remarkable 30 plus year career. His first novel, the Swimming Pool Library, published in 1988, and the new York Times profiled Hollinghurst when that book came out, saying, an exceptional novel. The Swimming Pool Library deepens our understanding of the coupling of romance and Elegy. In 2004, several years later and several books later, Hollinghurst won the Booker Prize for his novel the Line of Beauty. Two of his other books, the Folding Star and the Stranger's Child, were also nominated for the Booker the year they were released. Overall, Hollinghurst has written many books and with his robust catalog, he's become known for poetically capturing the contours and evolution of gay life in Britain. Our Evenings is his latest and I thought an iconic author with a new book. That sounds like a book club to me. And it's not a book club without friends. And joining me to discuss it are a handful of my wonderful colleagues. We have a mix of new and returning voices. We're just gonna go around the table. First we have Emily Akin. Hi Emily. Hi, MJ Emily is a fellow editor here at the Book Review and you may remember her from our My Brilliant Friend Book Club. Welcome back.

[Emily Akin]

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here, Emily.

[MJ Franklin]

I also want to shout out, a few weeks ago you wrote a wonderful essay about the plagiarism plot and how and why it's become the salient idea in contemporary literature. It's wonderful.

[Emily Akin]

Well, thank you.

[MJ Franklin]

Readers go Check it out. Another returning book clubber with us, Greg Coles. Greg, welcome.

[Greg Coles]

Thanks, mj. I'm glad to be here.

[MJ Franklin]

Greg joined the book club last a few months ago to talk about 100 Years of Solitude, which was so much fun. And Greg, as an editor here, you wear many hats, but one of those hats, you edit our poetry column. And given Hollinghurst's attention to language, when I knew we were doing this book as a book club, I thought, I have to talk to Greg. So you're in the hot seat. It's a welcoming group, but you're still.

[Greg Coles]

In the hot seat, the warm seat.

[MJ Franklin]

And last but not least, we have Scott Heller, another editor at the Times. Scott, this is your first time joining the book club, correct?

[Scott Heller]

It is.

[MJ Franklin]

Welcome.

[Scott Heller]

Thank you.

[MJ Franklin]

I'm so excited to have you. I always, it feels like new friends in the book club. And though this is your first time joining the book club, this is not your first time on the pod.

[Scott Heller]

That's right. I was on talking about the best books of the 21st century, said Scott very confidently.

[Emily Akin]

That's true.

[MJ Franklin]

And one huge project.

[Scott Heller]

Yes.

[MJ Franklin]

That episode was so fun. So listeners, go check that out. And then two. Welcome to book club.

[Scott Heller]

Thank you. Thank you, everyone.

[MJ Franklin]

That's our lineup. But before we jump into the discussion, I want to, as always, share some admin notes up top. At the end of the episode, we will reveal our February book club book. So stay with us to find out what we're reading next. And second, there will be spoilers in this conversation. We'll try to keep the discussion of the end of the book to the second half of this episode. But in general, we're gonna be talking about plotlines. We're gonna be talking about characters throughout the entire episode, which means there will be spoilers. If you wanna avoid spoilers, pause this episode, go read the book, you won't regret it, and then come back to us. And if you've already read the book or don't care about spoilers, let's go for it. Let's dive in to get us started. Could someone give us a brief elevator pitch of what our evenings is about?

[Greg Coles]

Huh? I will be happy to try. I'm not sure it's possible to give a brief elevator pitch because this is a book really about everything and about nothing. It's not a traditional narrative arc. What is this book about? It is a old fashioned character study, really. It's a psychological novel looking in depth at the life of one character. Dave Wen. He is a mixed race British actor of some Renown, who was in his youth a scholarship student at a private school, which. A British public school, which is to say a private school where he became entangled with the family who sponsored his scholarship, the Hadlows. But really, it's the story of Dave Wynn himself. He is born to a white British mother and a Burmese father that he never meet. He is gay, knows it from early childhood. And so it's partly about the process of his kind of coming to terms with coming into that and coming out to his family. His mother also ends up in a lesbian relationship that lasts for decades. So that's the book.

[MJ Franklin]

So first, beautifully done. We said we were gonna put you in the hot seat, the warm seat. And to start, we're like, please, like, give us a recap of a pretty, like, amorphous, broad novel. Well done. So let's dive in. To start, I just want to know, what did everyone make of this book? Broad thoughts. Tell me, did you like the book? Hate the book. Feel complicated about the book? I just want broad, top level thoughts. What did you think of our evenings?

[Emily Akin]

I love this book. It was really just a gorgeous, beautifully written surprise to me. It's such a nuanced, elegant novel. And I think it's important to stress what Greg meant, I think more or less in passing, is that it's a retrospective novel. So it begins with David Wynn. He's about 70. And it begins with a death. The news arrives that Mark Hadlow, who sponsored his scholarship to private school, British public school, has died. So it begins with this death and it begins with this mood of elegy. It's a very elegiac novel. And one of the things that really struck me, people compare Alan Hollingworst to Henry James. He's invited that comparison. This felt like a very Jamesian novel in tone to me.

[MJ Franklin]

What's that tone? Is it the elegy? What's the tone?

[Emily Akin]

Yes, I think the elegiac quality, the nuance, the kind of sifting through life. While I was reading it, I happened to see an advertisement for a webinar that the critic Merveille M. Ray is doing for the New York Review of Books on one of Henry James novels, the Portrait of a Lady. And she said, James takes the acts of perceiving and thinking and understanding and turns them into events, into exciting events. And that's exactly what Hollinghurst does in this novel, which is why it's hard to summarize it as plot, because it's all about the sifting through of experience.

[MJ Franklin]

I love that. What about you, Scott, what did you think of this book?

[Scott Heller]

I loved it as well. I was so struck to read the review. You are quoting our review. The first review of Hollanhurst referred to romance and elegy as his subjects. And here, all these years later, they're back. They haven't gone away. What I thought was especially rich about this book, and while the narrative isn't necessarily. It's not plot driven, I thought what was really special about this book are the set pieces, are the moments where he stops and spends time with Dave, whether Dave in school, whether Dave making his way through sort of social events where he's welcomed but not quite welcomed. And then for me, the section of the book where Dave, I think, is 14 and he goes away with his mother and his mother's business partner, who he is coming to realize is more than his business partner. And I just thought, as much as we're inside his head and that's super effective. There's also these sections that just work as almost like playlists. They're just perfect. And that would. For me, that was one that has. I'm gonna always remember, I was gonna.

[MJ Franklin]

Ask which set, if there was a set piece that stood out. And that one. The beach trip.

[Scott Heller]

Yeah, the Devon beach trip. Yes.

[MJ Franklin]

Wonderful. Like he is, not much is happening. He's just like watching his parents. He's swimming, there's an incident in a bathroom, and that's about it. But it's so rich and full.

[Emily Akin]

The incident in the bathroom was extraordinary. I mean, to me, this trip was his sexual awakening. We hear him experience this crush on a waiter. He knows when the waiters come into the room, this 19 year old attendant with his back turned to the waiter, he senses his presence and then he goes to the bathroom and there's all this sort of sexualized graffiti on the walls of the stall and he's getting aroused. And suddenly he realized that there's a voyeur in the next stall. It's just an extra. And it's terrifying and exciting. It's just. And it's beautifully laid out by Hollinghurst.

[Greg Coles]

Yeah. And that comes after he's been watching men on the beach, watching men changing, watching them go into. And so it is full blooming suddenly of this adolescent sexuality for him. I thought of Henry James a lot also in this. Partly for the quality of the language, he writes these elaborate, sinuous, elegant sentences and then uses them to pay close attention to the emotional nuance and to the gradations of thought. He thinks something and then immediately questions it. Or breaks it down into different. He thinks this and then second guesses himself. Dave is really a watcher of the world and a watcher of himself. And it's partly his mixed race heritage that always makes him an outsider. And he's trying to fit in. And so he's looking for the nuance in every situation. It's also what makes him a remarkable actor. He's a brilliant mimic. I read this book on paper, but I also listened to it. I did both. And I would recommend the audiobook to people for the parts where Dave is mimicking accents and like really going into the nuance of, oh, well, he does this at the end of the sentence.

[MJ Franklin]

And the narrator follows this.

[Greg Coles]

The narrator does that very well. The narrator is a British Sri Lankan actor named Prasanna Puwanaraja. And it's a beautiful reading job. Yeah.

[MJ Franklin]

Greg, you mentioned you talked a little bit about the language, but what are your broad thoughts?

[Greg Coles]

I fell into it right away because of the language. I anticipated that it would be a very political novel because it spends the first probably 50 to 60 pages with the Hadlows. And we know that Giles has gone on to be a politician and we know the Hadlows are these kind of plutocrats. And so I thought it would be very much a novel about that milieu. It's before we get the school scenes, it's before we get the family. And once it backed away from that, probably a little past halfway through, three quarters of the way through, I started to get a little impatient and think, well, what is he driving at here? In one of the later relationships, I thought, do I need to be reading so much about this? And then he brings it all together in the end in a way that really won me over.

[Scott Heller]

Again, I think you're pointing to one of the critiques of Hollinghurst, which is that the books start blurring a little bit. And your description of the Torrey family very much brings up the Line of Beauty, which is his biggest success, and his was also a wonderful book. So I was wondering if it was gonna feel too close to other. I have read the Line of Beauty, so I was wondering if it was gonna feel too close. It doesn't. It's a much gentler book than the Line of Beauty, I think. And the political shadows that are looming are handled so subtly, I thought, and upsettingly, actually, because the way he deploys Giles, who's the Brexiteer and who grows up from being a kind of sadistic schoolboy, understands his own power from an early age. And he keeps showing up at moments to exercise his power again and again, but we're not spending much time with him. And yet his ability to start shaping the reality that Dave is living in really grows, I feel.

[Emily Akin]

In addition to the sort of Tory politics, especially of the 80s, that seems to recur, at least in a line of beauty in this book, there's also an interest in cars. Lots happens around cars in this novel, and in that Sense, at Woolpeck, Mr. Hadlow arrives in this fabulous Citroen. Dies. Dies, I guess the English would say it's a convertible. It's on some kind of hydraulic suspension. And it's the most beautiful car Dave has ever seen. And he says it's the most beautiful car I've ever seen.

[Greg Coles]

Giles hates it.

[Emily Akin]

Giles says it's an ugly foreign object. And this is eerie, given who he becomes as someone who just loathes everything that's not English, right?

[MJ Franklin]

But then that car contrasts a car that appears later, which is Dave and his classmates have to go make this trip to record a World War I vet, and they need a car, and they're only able to get the car of his mother and now his mother's lover, Esme. And it's just this big van that says Wynncroft. And that kind of haphazard car contrasts so beautifully with this fancy car that then Dave and Giles have different perceptions.

[Greg Coles]

Of beautifully and also, in a very understated way, comically. I want to point out the ways that Hollinghurst, for all of his really lovely writing, can be very funny. Also, when we first meet Avril, Dave's mother, after this scene at the Hadlows, he's dropped off at home where she works as a dressmaker, and he walks by the room where she is fitting Esme for a dress, and Avril is on her knees and Esme is grunting. And it sets up the sexual relationship that has not even really developed yet, but it's all contained right there in that scene.

[Scott Heller]

I think bringing up his mother is really important because it is one of the most beautiful relationships in the book and very complicated. There's so much unspoken, but there's so much devotion there. And the way he and his mother have a kind of dance around coming out to each other is really beautifully done. And his tenderness with his mother, I thought was. Really helps the novel in that, really almost the one constant in his somewhat peripatetic life. And also in the way that the book keeps jumping forward in time. And it's one of the things I like about it. Some people may not, but I like that it jumps you into moments in his life without setup. At some points, a lot of the.

[Greg Coles]

Big moments happen off stage. We just know, oh, this person had a stroke or this person.

[Emily Akin]

There is a lot of tenderness between him and his mother. And they share something that they never seem to discuss, which is social ostracism. Her family disowns her when she takes up with Esme, her partner and the family, her brother.

[Scott Heller]

And they've been angry at her already.

[Emily Akin]

For having this a relationship with a Burmese man. They won't recognize Dave at their home. The uncle will not address him by his name. Avril and Dave put up with these insulting relatives and tell the relatives will have nothing more to do with them. And yet they never discuss that they support each other.

[MJ Franklin]

And to tie back to something that Greg said earlier, the comic nature of it, that scene where the uncle disowns the family is devastating, but so funny because Dave starts talking back. I think his uncle says something like, she's disgraced this family name twice over. And he just responds, well, that's one time too manage it. We were talking about some of these set pieces and how the book does have this almost discursive structure to it. So I'm gonna throw out to the table a two part question. One, what did you make of that structure? Was it distracting? Did you want a more visible and solid throughline? So that's question one. And then two, were there set pieces that stood out to you? Scott, you mentioned the beach, but I'm wondering what other things when you think of this book come to mind?

[Greg Coles]

So for me, one that Emily already alluded to, or maybe you did, MJ, about the search for the World War I veteran for this kind of scavenger hunt that they have to do at school. That whole scene leads to Dave hitchhiking because Giles has absconded with the van, the Windcroft van.

[Scott Heller]

Giles.

[Greg Coles]

That whole scene of the scavenger hunt and kind of everything that it brings up in the dynamics of the relationship between Giles and Dave, and Dave place in the social structure at the school, I just thought was a brilliant, handled set piece. And then in terms of the overall structure, that's a little bit what I was getting at before, where I was into it and then I was bored with it and then I was back into it again by the end when the book explains itself and explains its genesis. And I thought, okay, so I went through it with the structure.

[MJ Franklin]

Scott, Emily, what did you think?

[Scott Heller]

I found it very satisfying. I didn't have any problem with it. I liked that you would jump ahead and not have your bearings at the beginning. I think that element of surprise helps keep you interested in a book that, you know is long and is kind of stately in tone.

[Emily Akin]

I felt that the episodic nature of the book, with its set pieces following in a general linear way, but not necessarily connected or building on one another, was very effective. The reality effect for me was completely there. This is how a life unfolds with these discrete episodes that take you places where you've not been before. And then what I perceive beneath that, though, is a kind of deeper architecture that was very carefully planned so that we have this young man who's fatherless. We don't know. He doesn't even know if his father's last name was Win. We learn at the end it's the name on the back of the one photograph he's inherited. And someone casually says, well, that might be him, but that probably isn't his name. And we have this father figure in Mark Hadlow who comes in and out of the book episodically and whose own son seems very estranged and utterly unlike him. And so I felt that the through line was this kind of meditation on what do we inherit, who makes us who we are. And at the same time that Dave is discovering who he is as a gay man, his mother is also coming into her own as a gay woman. So they're on these parallel tracks. I just found that whole theme fascinating and very carefully and deliberately established in the book, despite these set pieces. And yes, they're comic. Greg?

[Scott Heller]

Yes, I was just mentioning another comic scene which I think anyone who's been in the literary world in any way will appreciate, which is the book signing.

[Greg Coles]

The 10 people who show up.

[Scott Heller]

Yes, the 10 people who show up.

[Emily Akin]

Even the talk where Giles is in the kind of the parlor, the ballroom with his audience and Dave is upstairs in the playroom talking to 12 people.

[Scott Heller]

It ends up being an important moment because the person interviewing him ends up becoming his husband. It becomes a life changing moment. But that idea of feeling like the extra person or the one who doesn't get, who isn't getting the attention, is very nicely handled in that. And the kind of organizer flitting around and making sure that Giles is happy and then everyone else is slightly besides the point. I thought that was all terrific. But again, and I think this is what makes the book so strong is those slights. He's bemused about being slighted there, but it calls back to Other slights over the course of his life that are a lot more painful.

[Greg Coles]

In fact, many of them involving Giles too, right?

[Scott Heller]

Yeah, absolutely. But also involving his career as an actor and being very talented and yet never really landing the biggest parts, necessarily.

[Greg Coles]

But those are countered by he has success after success. And those are also set up in the set pieces. Again, he wins the game of plutocrats. And in the cricket scene, he ends up pitching to Mark Hadlow. Warm Mark Hadlow up. And he's quite good as a cricket player, Dave. And he shows himself over and over again to be adaptable, to be. He never achieves the fame that he maybe deserves, but he builds a real career.

[MJ Franklin]

And I think that reveals the tragedy of what Dave has to face. He's so talented, he's so good, and yet people talk out their mouth crazy to him. The things they say to him. Like, he mentions at one point that he does all of these great impressions and he notes, but the one that people wanted the most was his Jeeves. They want to see him as a butler. It's maddening.

[Emily Akin]

And this is of course foreshadowed at Woolpeck, where Mark Hadlow's mother, who's a French actress in her twilight years, has him rehearse. She's actually been cast in a production of Agamemnon. And she learns that Dave, too is interested in acting and has a part in Twelfth Night. And they decide to rehearse together and she says about how hard it is to be an actor of color, but you can go on the radio. So the insults start very young.

[MJ Franklin]

Yes, this book club is great and we are going to continue, but first, I think we should take a quick break.

[Jonathan Swan]

I'm Jonathan Swan. I'm a reporter at the New York Times. You know, when people think about the media, your favourite podcast, you know, cable news panels and different things, I think it's fair to say that myself and my reporting colleagues at the New York Times exist at the more unglamorous end of that spectrum. Our job is to dig out the facts that provide a foundation for these conversations. These facts don't just come out of the ether. It requires reporters to spend hours upon hours talking to sources, digging up documents. Also, if the story is a story that a powerful person doesn't want in print, there's threats of lawsuits and all kinds of things. So it's a really massive operation. There aren't that many places anymore who invest at that level in journalism. Without a well funded and rigorous free press, people in power have much more leeway. To do whatever the heck it is that they want to. If you think that it's worthwhile to have journalists on the job digging out information, you can subscribe to the New York Times. Because without you, none of us can do the work that we do.

[MJ Franklin]

And we're back. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review, and I am joined by Scott Heller, Greg Coles and Emily Akin, and we're discussing Our Evenings by Alan Hollinghurst before we jump back into our conversation, I just want to shout out. We are also chatting about the book online. We have an article page up on New York Times website Headline Book Club. Read Our Evenings by Alan Hollinghurst with the Book Review. Readers from all around the world are already chatting there, talking about the book, talking about their thoughts, and we wanted to mention a few of them. Should we go around and share some of our favorites? I can start April, from Australia wrote, I've never had a reading experience like I've had reading our evenings. For the first 300 pages, I was engaged enough with the skillful and elegant writing, but the pacing was slow and difficult to be absorbed by. After 300 pages, I oddly couldn't put it down. The quiet and humble build had profoundly gotten under my skin. I feel it's one of my favorite books of 2024 and has stayed with me. I just love that comment and I feel like it speaks to the slow burn aspect that we were talking about. That's one comment, and one more I just wanted to shout out is Blair from Tampa, who wrote, I found this book to be beautifully written and with descriptive sentences that I felt I was present at the scene. It had a warm, engrossing feel to it that drew me in and kept my interest throughout. A previous reader used language to describe the writing. I would agree. For me, I imagined the voice of Jeremy Irons from Brideshead Revisited narrating the scenes with perhaps a bit of casual israguro describing British society and social strata thrown in. A most enjoyable read. So those are two that I wanted to mention. Scott, Greg, Emily, did you have any comments you wanted to shout?

[Emily Akin]

I was struck by a comment from Macy Jane in Boise. She noted that the oppressive social forces that threaten Dave and his mother in particular, and queer people and people of color in general, are evoked as small, isolated incidents in a kind of episodic way. And she's absolutely right. And yet Hollinghurst makes clear that despite these kind of direct encounters with microaggressions and racism and xenophobia, that whole gestalt, that worldview looms over the novel and shapes the characters profoundly. And I thought she was right to pick up on that.

[Scott Heller]

I love that I picked a quote from her, too. So I think we were thinking similarly.

[MJ Franklin]

She's with us in this room.

[Greg Coles]

She is.

[Scott Heller]

And I can read the quote Emily summarized beautifully. But the part of it I thought I really liked was about Giles. And she says the character of Giles, being ever present but far off, contributes to the feeling that it's never impossible for the specter of social regression to sneak up on him.

[Greg Coles]

I really liked this comment from Seville in Austin, Texas, who writes, I also admired Dave's work ethic. Without calling excessive attention to it. Hollinghurst notes how devotedly Dave works all his life at realizing the full potential of his talent. The same can certainly be said of the author himself.

[MJ Franklin]

Those are just a few of the comments, but there are already so much great, robust conversation happening on that article again, that is headlined Book Club. Read Our Evenings by Alan Hollinghurst with the Book Review. Continue the conversation there. And speaking of continuing the conversation, we're going jump back in.

[Greg Coles]

How do we feel about Alan Hollinghurst writing a character of color? Alan Hollinghurst, who is a white author, I raised my eyebrows at the beginning, but I think he fully inhabits Dave. It doesn't ever feel like an act of ventriloquism. It just feels organic to the character and absolutely essential to who Dave is.

[Scott Heller]

I agree with that. What do you think?

[MJ Franklin]

I also agree with that. I was really nervous when I heard that he was writing a character of color from the first person. That's because some of the characters of color in his previous books, they themselves feel full, but the approach of the narrative feels very leering toward them.

[Scott Heller]

I feel like they're erotic objects. Yes.

[MJ Franklin]

So my eyebrows also went up when I saw that he was writing a Burmese English character. But I think it really lands, and the way he lands on some of the microaggressions that happen felt so true to life.

[Greg Coles]

I think it helps that Dave doesn't know a lot about Burmese. He's Burmese, but he's raised by a white mother in England. And so even his own connection to the Burmese side of him is always held at a distance, and it is alluring to him. He tries to throw himself in to study it, but he's always aware it's essential to who I am. It's again, that line that he says late when he tells you he's writing his memoirs. I Want to write about being who I am, but not knowing where I come from.

[Emily Akin]

It reminds me of James. I know this sounds crazy. James did not write about Henry. James did not write about people of color. But when he wrote about the American, it was the American in Europe was this sort of outsider with one foot on the inside. That seems like a quintessential Hollinghurst move. So that even in the line of Beauty, which is, forgive me, the only other Hollinghurst novel I've read, Nick Guest is someone who is part, has been invited into the upper class, but isn't a native of the upper class. Is literally a border at the home of a wealthy family, comes to the middle class, but appreciates, is educated and cultured into this world just as Dave Wynn is. But Dave is marked by that difference. He's always an outsider with looking in. And I think as an actor, that's a sort of privileged stance that allows him to be this shape shifting person.

[MJ Franklin]

One thing I wanted to recommend is Hollinghurst did this incredible interview with the Granta podcast and, and one of the things he mentioned was why he wrote it in first person, this book. And he said because he knew he wanted to write a Burmese character. And that was not an experience that he had. So putting it in first person meant he could only. He only had to really focus on what this particular person experienced and what he was putting his characters through. And he didn't need to have that omniscient third person informed, knowledgeable perspective of all things that for our evenings. Putting this in first Person was a very freeing and deliberate and helpful perspective.

[Greg Coles]

Worth pointing out that the title comes partly from a phrase that his husband and he used talking about our evenings, but is also alluded to much earlier. He's in a record club, a listening club, with the teacher Mr. Hudson at Bampton. And it's a Yanisek piano exercise, a longer series, but part one is called Our Evenings and. And we have Dave listening to that.

[MJ Franklin]

There's a line in that music scene that I feel like is a hint at the structure of the book. And Hollinghurst writes as ethic. Mr. Hudson says we must listen to it again, of course, that the theme's been there all the time, half hidden, hurried along so that you can't see its potential. I feel like that's the idea of this book. So much happens, there are so many different scenes and set pieces and you're trying to figure out up to three fourths of the way through the book what is going on. And then it's only after finishing that you're like, oh, wait, that was a theme that was emerging slowly, or this was bubbling up and developing. I feel like this is a book that invites multiple reads.

[Greg Coles]

I agree. I think that the music contains a key, kind of a map for the book. I actually went and listened to Yan Esek hour evenings on YouTube.

[Scott Heller]

People do so much homework. I'm feeling terrible.

[Greg Coles]

Yeah, it is all of four minutes long. If that's a little piano exercise, it's beautiful. It starts out slow. It becomes quite frenzied. It ends slow again. It's a surprise to think that it might map onto a 500 page novel. But I think that there's something in that scene where he's giving you the code.

[Scott Heller]

My favorite use of the phrase our evenings takes us to another point, which we haven't gone into, where he goes back to the school and he's talking to a young teacher, a young black teacher who represents how much has changed over time. And they're talking about what it's like to be an actor. And he says, our evenings are rarely our own. And I thought that was a wonderful way to think about the tug of the stage. And one of the kind of sub themes in the book is how he's able to have an acting life and also possibly have a personal life. And, you know, especially given that he's a touring actor and with an avant garde company at the beginning. He's never in one place at a time.

[Greg Coles]

Really talked about how it's very much a theater world.

[Scott Heller]

Yeah. Which I certainly got a lot. I enjoyed that quite a bit.

[MJ Franklin]

Scott used to be our theater editor.

[Greg Coles]

Yes. I didn't know much about the acting life, the theater world at all. And so I found it really immersive and educational.

[MJ Franklin]

Hollinger's is so good with specific crafts throughout his books. Whether it's the theater world in our evenings, whether it's through architecture, through poetry.

[Emily Akin]

Antique dealer and painter, biographer, he really.

[MJ Franklin]

Is able to choose a job or a career or a field and really just mine it for all it has to offer, metaphorically.

[Emily Akin]

It's almost always in the arts though, isn't it? There's a quote in the line of Beauty from Henry James that Nick Guest, who's the protagonist of that book, trots out. He's actually doing a PhD on Henry James. And he quotes James at a dinner party. He says to his next, the woman sitting next to him. James said, it is art that makes life and there's no substitute for the force and beauty of its process. And I feel that for Hollinghurst, this is a sort of a mantra for him. And it is that everyone. There is an everyone is an artist almost in these books.

[MJ Franklin]

So we've talked about a lot of stuff in this book, but we haven't spoken about Dave's love life. That's a huge thing. These relationships are such anchors. Hector, Richard. I want to throw it out to the table. What do we think of how. What do we think of Dave's love story?

[Scott Heller]

Compared to My Memory of Swimming Pool Library and Line of Beauty, the other two books I've read, it felt a little more tamped down. I thought. I thought it was. Interestingly, the sex scenes were slightly coy and lower key than I expected. And that I thought was intriguing. I think the relationship with Richard, as much time as you have with it, I thought it was really lovely and took me by surprise that it was. That it felt as rounded and as nourishing as it did. This may just be me, but I thought it was intriguing the way the earlier boyfriends are ushered off stage and you never hear about them again, for the most part. And that led me to think, oh, maybe there's a little bit more ruthlessness in Dave than we typically mostly see. And I thought that was intriguing. And I don't know if anyone else feels that because it's certainly not the top note of his character, but there's a way in which it's out of sight, out of mind. The way the book is structured, I.

[Greg Coles]

Will say, when I got bored with it, it was partway through the relationship with Hector. And I think it's because the relationships felt as if they didn't have a whole lot of comm. He has, at first, adolescent college student crush on Nick, unrequited. And he's deep into that crush, and that feels consequential. And then next thing you know, he's with Chris. And then from Chris, he's on to Hector. And it feels like he's just moving through a dating life that each maybe teaches him something about himself, but they didn't add to the weight of the book in a way that I was hoping for.

[Emily Akin]

I guess I would say I felt that the lovers were differentiated. They weren't as maybe important in terms of the centrality of the episodes that were deeply formative in the structure of the book that I agree with. And that was maybe a little problematic, but I felt they were differentiated. I felt Chris was a man who pursued Dave and Dave is flattered and is attracted. But it became a Little boring, I think, a little domesticated. Whereas Hector then becomes this kind of very exciting, very sexualized. I felt they were very different relationships. It's true that they didn't last super long or take up huge chunks of the narrative. And that Richard then becomes a relationship for middle age. It's everything. I think it's intellectually very satisfying. And we don't see a lot of the romance toward the end.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah, I agree with Scott that the romance here in this book did feel so tamped down, so tamed, especially after the really explicit and graphic and robust romances of some of his previous books in the swimming pool library. And there are these great illicit affairs that happen and it's.

[Scott Heller]

Did you miss it?

[MJ Franklin]

That's a good question. I think I did. In his previous books, there is something so raw, so gritty, so blunt about the sex and the relationships that contrast so beautifully with the language and the poetry. And I really like that element of Hollinghurst's story.

[Emily Akin]

I do think it's wonderful that Hollinghurst can just effortlessly celebrate the beauty of a male body and sex at exactly the same way that he celebrates a beautiful work of art. It's all.

[Greg Coles]

Or a car.

[Emily Akin]

Right. Or a car. Many cars.

[Scott Heller]

Not as much as a car. Right.

[Emily Akin]

But it's all on a continuum of pleasure. I love that about him. I really appreciate that, actually.

[MJ Franklin]

So I know we're running out of time, but we teased at the beginning, we have to get the ending. Should we dive in?

[Scott Heller]

Sure.

[MJ Franklin]

So let's do it. What did you think of the ending? So let me know if I'm missing something. But basically. Spoiler alert, spoiler alert, spoiler alert. Dave reveals that he's gonna write this book. The pandemic happens, lockdown happens. He is attacked in this racist, xenophobic attack against Asian people. And he dies from his injuries. Then Richard picks up the manuscript that he was working on and finishes it. And that's what we. A lot happens in a short amount of time. What did you think of that ending?

[Emily Akin]

I have to admit that I was not happy about the ending. It felt like a contrivance. It felt heavy handed. I understood that Dave's death at the hands of a crazed xenophobic thug was. We were meant to understand this as the physical realization of Giles, sinister vision of the world. A vision of the world in which people are other. We're not. There's no kind of multicultural community that England is for the English. No Europeans allowed and no other people. But it happened quickly, in just a few pages. And it felt like a deus ex machina to me. And it's funny, I was saying to MJ that I think of myself as someone who likes a little formal innovation in a novel. And perhaps I hadn't read other Hollinghurst novels after the Line of Beauty, because he is just a master of the kind of psychological realist, conventional in terms of form, novel. And I was saying to mj, well, I'm wrong. He's just such a beautiful writer. What more need he do? And yet at the end, he did this sort of formal sleight of hand and I didn't care for it. And just maybe that's not the kind of novelist he is and he should stick with what he does best.

[Scott Heller]

See, I found. Because he's that kind of novelist, I found the switch to where the last section begins with the kind of bird's eye view of what's happened via video, and you're wrenched out of the gentility and the coziness to the coldness of watching a crime happen through CCTV or something like that. I thought that was really powerful, and I thought it was. And again, it depends. Reading it right now, maybe as part of this, but it felt like the looming clouds, which we knew are always there and which are brewing and in the air felt like there was like a kind of. Like a shot of lightning and somebody was hit by lightning or. I don't know if that's well explained, but the idea is that it was really wrenching and it was just. It was such a repudiation of so much of what comes before it, which is that progress, cultural progress, has happened. The acceptance of gays and lesbians in England has moved in one direction and multiculturalism has become part. And here we watch it tear and hear it tear. And I thought that was pretty powerful.

[MJ Franklin]

I completely agree with you. And you said shadow lightning. I had the word jolt written down because so much of this book, because it's episodic, because there are these set pieces, because it's so lush. This book casts a spell, I think, and you're just, like, lulled into it with Dave for 450 pages or so. And we know that Dave faces discrimination, but it almost seems like these little antics, like his. I meant, rather than his great impressions. They want to see Jeeves. That seems to be like, what's at stake, even as we see Giles also ascending. And then that ending is a jolt that lets you know that xenophobia, that racism. There's much more at stake than just an actor can't get the roles that he wants. I think that ending really powerfully illustrates just the severity and the importance and stakes of what Dave is facing ending. And yet I agree with Emily, it did feel rushed. I can't imagine wanting more of those scenes, but it felt abrupt to me. It's a jolt, both because of what happens, but then also in the book, it feels abrupt. Speaking of the ending, I feel like we could keep talking about this book for days and days and days, but we got a limited amount of time before we go. As always, we always want to share some book recommendations before we leave. I usually try to tie our recommendation segment to a specific theme of the book. But as we've all noted, so much is happening here and readers are connecting to this book in all types of ways. And so instead I'm gonna leave it very open and just say, what are some books that you would pair with our evenings generally? Maybe there's another beautiful book with beautiful poetic language you'd recommend. Maybe there's another book or another author who's known for capturing gay life that pairs nicely with this one. Maybe there's a literary coming of age story. It's up to you. I just want to know what is something that you would recommend readers check out after they read our evenings.

[Greg Coles]

I'm going to recommend a book that is so different in so many ways, starting with the fact that it is a graphic memoir. It's a cartoon. But Alison Bechdel's Fun Home is also the coming of age story of a queer character, herself, the author with a closeted parent, her father. And it is lovely and poignant and conflicted. It has overlaps with this book while being very different.

[MJ Franklin]

I love that. Also, I think this is the first graphic novel that we've recommended in book club. So thank you.

[Greg Coles]

Sure.

[MJ Franklin]

What about you, Scott?

[Scott Heller]

Okay, I didn't listen to the music and I don't know about cars, but I have three recommendations, so.

[MJ Franklin]

So you did a homework homework.

[Scott Heller]

Is that okay? I did a little bit of homework. Okay. To think about the life of an actor and a British actor who sort of is of. Of of Dave Wynn's generation. There's Patrick Stewart's memoir making it so a lot of the best parts of the. Of the book are about being a journeyman actor working the touring circuit. And I think it would be a really interesting parallel. Patrick Stewart got famous very late in life and for a lot of his career he was playing those lesser parts. So I think that would be a good pairing.

[MJ Franklin]

Interesting. I didn't know that About Patrick Steele.

[Scott Heller]

Yeah, yeah. Star Trek came quite late. Then right now there's a book that just came out called Mona Acts Out. It's a comic novel by Misha Berlinski. It's about the American theater scene and it is about a kind of equivalent downtown theater troupe that was run by a cult like lead or director who ends up being deposed because of a MeToo incident. It looks at the fallout from that, but you get a glimpse of what it's like to work in a theater company where the rules are they make the rules up as they go along. And then last. And this is just another book about a gay Brit coming out. Book called A Natural, which I don't know how I stumbled onto it. It's by a guy named Ross Raisin and it's about a young British soccer player who's playing in kind of a lesser league and is starting to realize that he's gay and how he figures out how to put that together with the life of a kind of low level soccer player. It's very good.

[MJ Franklin]

Interesting. I love coming out growing up story. And that sounds really good.

[Scott Heller]

I would look at it. Yes, good book. What about you, Emily and Ross Raisin. What a name for an author, right?

[MJ Franklin]

What about you, Emily?

[Emily Akin]

I'm gonna go in a really different direction. Although this is also a coming of age story, it's actually a book that Dave Wynne is reading when he's at Woolpeck, the Hadlow's country home in the first section of our evenings and that he's reading it for French. It's a classic that my father had me read in high school. It is so beautiful. It's called, forgive my pronunciation, it's hard to pronounce. Even the French probably have trouble. Le Grand Molne. M E A U L N E S and Moulne is a proper name. The Great Mon. Some say that Fitzgerald was inspired by this book for the title of the Great Gatsby. Because Moln. It's a story told by a young man. He's 15. His father is the resident teacher at a boarding school. And a 17 year old is dropped off to attend this boarding school where actually both his parents teach and they become friends. So it's not a queer love story, but it is a story of, let's say, homosocial bonding and of the pursuit of love. Because Moll, the 17 year old, the narrator, worships Moll and Molln himself falls in love with a girl that he stumbles on in the forest where he runs away to and then he spends the rest of the basically searching for this girl. It's a beautiful book. It was by a writer named Alain Fournier who published it at the age of 27 in 1913 and then was killed a month later in basically the first battle of World War I. And I just love that Dave was reading it and it reminded me it just came rushing back.

[MJ Franklin]

Go check that out. 1 thank you for that recommendation. And also I think that's a tip that like there should be a reading guide of just the titles of music plays books mentioned in our evenings because I was also writing down little titles. A Henry James book that I think Dave is reading is Washington Square at one point, which I incidentally read recently. So I have a I'm going to do lightning round because I have a bunch of books I wanted to recommend. First is if you like Our Evenings, which I think is a gateway to Hollinghurst, I would recommend checking out his backlist. If you like the romantic antics of our evenings, read the Swimming Pool Library. If you like the political undercurrents, read the Line of Beauty. If you like the meditation on time and the changing of life, read the Sparsholt there. They're all really good and I recommend them. Other books, if you are looking for a long novel about the life and times of one man over many, many, many, many years, read the Hearts Invisible Furies by John Boyne. The New Life by Tom Cru is one of my favorites. And also an In Memorial by Alice Wynn I would recommend. And then I mentioned him at the end of Last Book Club. But an author that I feel like is in direct conversation and in the lineage of Hollinghurst is Garth Greenwell. I think both are capturing of gay life and are unflinchingly portraying romance, sex, relationships, all of that stuff. And Garth Greenwell also is a lyrical, beautiful writer. So Garth Greenwell is what someone I'd also recommend.

[Scott Heller]

Great suggestions.

[MJ Franklin]

Thank you. Thank you. I think unfortunately that's all the time we have for today. Greg, Emily, Scott, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This was great.

[Scott Heller]

Thank you.

[Emily Akin]

Thank you.

[Greg Coles]

Thanks so much.

[Scott Heller]

This was so fun.

[MJ Franklin]

And thank you to everyone who read along with us this month and who left a comment and our online discussion again, I'm gonna plug it one more time. You have a New York Times article headline Book Club Read Our Evenings by Alan Hollinghurst with the Book Review. Continue the conversation there. And in February, we are reading Orbital by Samantha Harvey. It's a slim book, but it's a mighty book. It won the 2024 Booker. It's about space and so much more. There is an article headline book Club Read Orbital by Samantha Harby with a book review. I'm sure you're sensing a structure here. It's on the New York Times website now. During the conversation, we' talk about the book on the podcast on February 28th. So we hope to see you then. But until next time, happy reading.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That was MJ Franklin in discussion with Emily Akin, Scott Heller and Greg Coles about our evenings by Alan Hollinghurst. I'm Gilbert Cruz. Thanks as always for listening.