Book Club: Let's Talk About "Orbital," by Samantha Harvey

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Book Review – Book Club: Let's Talk About "Orbital," by Samantha Harvey

Episode Information

• Title: Book Club: Let's Talk About "Orbital," by Samantha Harvey
• Host: MJ Franklin, Editor at The New York Times Book Review
• Guests: Jumana Khatib and Jen Harlan, Editors at The New York Times Book Review
• Release Date: February 28, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Book Review Podcast, host MJ Franklin leads a lively discussion about Samantha Harvey's acclaimed novel, Orbital. Joined by fellow editors Jumana Khatib and Jen Harlan, the trio delves deep into the novel's themes, writing style, and emotional resonance. The conversation provides listeners with comprehensive insights, ideal for both fans of the book and those considering reading it.

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Book Overview

MJ Franklin opens the discussion by highlighting Orbital's prestigious accolade—the Booker Prize—affirming its literary significance. She emphasizes the book's compact yet powerful narrative, contrasting it with previous selections like Alan Hollinghurst's Our Evenings. Franklin expresses a personal connection, having read the novel in one sweeping session over a weekend.

Jen Harlan provides a succinct synopsis: Orbital chronicles 24 hours aboard the International Space Station, following six astronauts—four men and two women—from diverse backgrounds. The narrative explores their daily lives, experiments, and the profound solitude of space, intertwining personal introspections with broader contemplations about Earth and humanity's place in the cosmos.

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Initial Reactions and Impressions

Jen Harlan shares her admiration for the novel's lyrical and visceral writing. She describes the book as "small and massive at the same time," allowing readers to vividly imagine the confined yet expansive environment of the space station. Harlan found the structure meditative, appreciating its fragmented yet profound chapters.

Contrastingly, Jumana Khatib recounts her struggle with the novel's pacing. As a fast reader, she initially attempted to consume the book quickly but realized that savoring its poetic language required a slower, more reflective approach. Khatib metaphorically compares the experience to "eating without chewing," ultimately praising Harvey's ability to balance depth without becoming overly didactic.

MJ Franklin admits her apprehension toward space-themed narratives but was captivated by the book's tight narrative frame. She lauds the balance between the astronauts' meditative internal lives and the dynamic, almost kinetic flow of ideas, despite the lack of conventional plot progression.

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In-Depth Discussions

Themes of Isolation and Connectivity

The conversation delves into how Orbital masterfully portrays isolation juxtaposed with deep human connections. Harlan praises the depiction of the astronauts as a "temporary family," navigating both professional responsibilities and personal introspections in a confined space. The novel's exploration of relationships strained by distance—both physical and emotional—is highlighted as a poignant aspect.

Romanticism and the Sublime

Franklin introduces the concept of the "sublime" in Romanticism—defined here as the "terrifying feeling of awe"—and how Orbital channels this through its space setting. The vastness of space serves as a backdrop for intimate human emotions, blending fear, wonder, and existential contemplation.

Symbolism and Artistic References

Harlan discusses the integration of art within the novel, referencing Sean's contemplation of Velazquez's Las Meninas and Roman's fixation on Michael Collins' lunar photographs. These artistic elements underscore the themes of perspective and the human condition, mirroring the astronauts' unique vantage point and their feelings of powerlessness amidst cosmic vastness.

Emotional Resonance and Practical Realities

Khatib appreciates how Harvey intertwines profound emotional themes with practical space station realities, such as the inability to cry in space or the necessity of maintaining physical health through exercise. These details ground the novel's philosophical musings in tangible experiences, enhancing its emotional depth.

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Notable Quotes

The panel highlights several impactful passages from Orbital, each accompanied by specific timestamps:

• Page 13 [33:02]:

  "The Earth from here is like heaven. It flows with color. A burst of hopeful color. When we're on that planet, we look up and think heaven is elsewhere. But here is what the astronauts and cosmonauts sometimes think. Maybe all of us born to it have already died and are in an afterlife. If we must go to an improbable hard to believe and place when we die, that glassy distant orb with its beautiful lonely light shows could well be it."

• Page 173 [33:02]:

  "Time moves on with its usual nihilism, mows us all down, jaw-droppingly insensate to our preference for living."

• Page 134 [33:02]:

  "In 5 billion years when Earth is long dead, it will be a love song that outlives spent suns."

Harlan also mentions a poignant moment where Roman catalogs his daily activities in space as a tether to his existence, underscoring the human need for structure amidst the boundless.

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Book Recommendations

As the discussion nears its end, the panelists offer thoughtful recommendations for listeners captivated by Orbital:

• Jen Harlan recommends Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, a non-fiction work that complements Orbital by exploring deep connections with the natural world through lyrical prose.

• Jumana Khatib suggests The Body in Question by Jill Simmonds, a novel about the intimate relationships formed within the confines of a jury trial, paralleling the communal dynamics aboard the space station.

• MJ Franklin offers a diverse list:

  • In Defense of Saccharine by Leslie Jamison
  • The 10th of December by George Saunders
  • Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders
  • Mrs. Dalloway and To the Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf
  • The Vaster Wilds (Author unspecified)

These recommendations aim to provide listeners with a variety of literary experiences that echo the emotional and thematic depth of Orbital.

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Reader Engagement and Feedback

Franklin highlights selected reader comments from the New York Times' Book Club hub:

• Julie from Ohio appreciates the book's ability to dissolve societal divisions when viewed from space, fostering a brief yet profound Earth-centric perspective.

• Yuval from New York commends Harvey for balancing human and cosmic viewpoints, creating a "disquieting open endedness" that encapsulates the novel's weightlessness.

• Cole from Pittsburgh echoes the novel's melancholic tone with a poetic remark: "In space, no one can hear you yawn."

• Michael from Dublin shares his initial struggle with the book's pacing, eventually growing to appreciate its "beautiful prose" and profound themes.

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Conclusion and Upcoming Reveals

As the episode wraps up, Franklin announces the March book club read, We Do Not Part by Hong Kong, inviting listeners to join the upcoming discussion. The conversation closes with heartfelt thanks to the guests and listeners, encouraging continued engagement through the New York Times website.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Book Review Podcast offers an enriching exploration of Samantha Harvey's Orbital, blending personal insights with critical analysis. The detailed examination of the novel's themes, coupled with engaging dialogue and select quotes, provides a comprehensive understanding suitable for both enthusiasts and newcomers. The recommended readings further extend the conversation, fostering a deeper appreciation for literary works that navigate the complexities of human emotion and existence.

Transcript

[Zippy Owens]

This podcast is supported by Totally Booked with Zippy, the Webby Award winning show formerly known as Moms don't have Time to Read Books. Each weekday on Totally Booked, bestselling author Zippy Owens, dubbed NYC's most powerful bookfluencer by Vulture, sits down with the best and fuzziest writers, from bestselling author Kristin Hannah to actress Jennifer Love Hewitt and beyond. Stay on top of the latest book releases and hidden gems. Follow Totally Booked with Zibi on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite listening Apple.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review Podcast. It's time for our monthly Book Club gathering, which drops at the end of every month, hosted as always by our editor, MJ Franklin. Last month we discussed Alan Hollinghurst's Our Evenings, and in December, MJ & Co talked about small things like these by Claire Keegan. You can find all of our Book Review Book Club episodes on NYTimes.com or whatever platform you use to listen to the Book Review Podcast. Mj, Take it away.

[MJ Franklin]

Hello and welcome to another book club episode of the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review, and for this month's Book Review Book Club, we're talking about Orbital by Samantha Harvey. We chose this book for a few reasons. First, last year it won a literal award called the Booker Prize. Ever heard of it? It's one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and we thought, if it's good enough for the Booker Prize, it's good enough for us. The second reason, last month we selected a large, sweeping novel as our book club book. That was our Evenings by Alan Hollinghurst. And we believe in balance here at the Book Review. So I thought, let's choose a slim but equally mighty novel. Next the and third, and this is selfish, I just wanted to talk about it with someone. I read this book in one big sweep over one weekend, and afterward I was like, I just need to discuss this with other readers. And then I thought, wait a second, we have a book club, so that's what we're here to do. And speaking of talking about it with other readers, joining me today in the studio are two of my wonderful colleagues, fellow editors. Let's just dive in. First, we have a familiar voice, a frequent book clubber, a fan favorite, Jumana Khatib. Hi Jomana. Hey, M.J. welcome back.

[Jumana Khatib]

I'm happy to be here.

[MJ Franklin]

And also with us is a new voice, a first time guest not only on this book club, but on the Book Review podcast in general. Jen Harlan, Welcome. Jen, hello.

[Jen Harlan]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk with you all.

[MJ Franklin]

Jen, can you tell us, what do you do here at the Book Review?

[Jen Harlan]

So my job at the Book Review is overseeing service journalism, which basically means that my job is to help our readers find the next book that they will love.

[MJ Franklin]

And not only are you just helping people find new books, but you're doing it in really, really remark like you just did this find you'd next Romance Book quiz. It's this interactive where you can put in what you're in the mood for and then it gives you these really smart, thoughtful book recommendations.

[Jen Harlan]

Thank you. Yeah, it's essentially a sort of a little book matchmaker, which felt appropriate for February and Valentine's Day.

[Jumana Khatib]

You're our book yenta. You can say it.

[Jen Harlan]

As someone who spent a lot of time running around my house as a child singing Matchmaker with a napkin on my head, I will take that.

[MJ Franklin]

And so that's our All Star lineup. But before we dive In, I have two admin notes. @ the end of the episode, we will reveal our next book. So if you're curious, what are we reading in March, stay with us until the end. And second, as always, there will be spoilers in this conversation. This is a hard book to spoil, but just a heads up, if you want to go in blind, fresh, pause this episode, go read the book and then come back to us. And if you don't care about spoilers or if you've already read the book. So let's get into it. To start, can someone in the room give us a brief elevator pitch? Synopsis? What is Orbital about?

[Jen Harlan]

I can talk about what Orbital is about. So as MJ mentioned, this is a slim little book, but mighty. It is about six astronauts who are stationed in the International Space Station and it takes place over the course of 24 hours as they orbit the earth 16 times. You have four men and two women from various countries, but they are all part of this temporary family living on the spaceship together and conducting various experiments. And you get some of their interior life and also some broader musings on space and Earth and our relationship to it.

[MJ Franklin]

All beautifully said, especially considering. Yeah, how amorphous. Huge, sweeping, but tiny and specific. This book is first time on the show and already jumping in. So to get started, I just want to go around and ask, how did everyone feel about this book? Like it? Hate it, Feel complicated about it? Give me your Top level thoughts.

[Jen Harlan]

I, M.J. knows this already because I also read this book on my own when I was home over the holidays at the end of December and then immediately found myself wanting to talk to people about this, which is how I ended up here. I really loved this book. I saw someone in a ruby describe it as small and massive at the same time, and I think that really encapsulates it for me on the sentence level. I found the writing really beautiful and visceral. The imagery of it was very strong. I found myself really being able to picture myself on the space station and with the astronauts. Even though that is not something that I have any experience with. I also found it very meditative. It was something. I think I picked it up. It was so short. I was like, oh, this will be great. This can be a book that I'll read in a day while I have a lot of spare reading time to catch up on things in that sort of liminal space between the end of one year and the beginning of the other. But as I was with the astronauts in this liminal space that they find themselves in, where time gets shredded and amorphous a little bit, this was not a book that I found I was able to binge. But I found myself dipping in and out for these little kind of meditative jewels of a chapter and then taking some time to process and then coming back and overall, really enjoyed it.

[MJ Franklin]

I love that reading experience. Yeah, you said that you're in this liminal space. They're in this liminal space. It was like a merging of the atmospheres.

[Jen Harlan]

Sure.

[MJ Franklin]

What about you, Jomana? How did you feel about this book?

[Jen Harlan]

Yeah.

[Jumana Khatib]

So this is a case where I wished. I live for a deadline. I cannot change who I am. So. And I'm also a fast reader, so I was like, okay, I'm going to set aside like a weekend for this and then I'm going to keep going with my reading train. And I very quickly realized the error of my ways because I was just sort of like, oh, I would love to savor this, but instead I feel like I'm eating this without chewing and which is a choking. And so what happened is that I was really gobbling this up and I was like, these are beautiful, profound meditations. When you them and that you accrete so many pages, you sort of get like a little bit of a. Of a kidney stone right where it's. Man, there's a lot of lyrical language that's building up in my bloodstream. I wonder how it's going to be. To pass this out of my body. So I.

[Jen Harlan]

What?

[Jumana Khatib]

So I would like to warn readers if you have decided to plow ahead and listen or and read this book, but you're listening to this podcast without having read it. Just pace yourself. This is the kind of book that I wished I had given myself one. One of those sections a night before bed.

[MJ Franklin]

So I'm gonna ask some follow up clarity questions.

[Jumana Khatib]

I'm ready. I'm ready.

[MJ Franklin]

So you're saying that you gobbled it up too fast.

[Jen Harlan]

Yeah.

[MJ Franklin]

And does that mean you didn't like it? That it was okay, but not an ideal reading experience?

[Jumana Khatib]

I understand. Your questions are my questions. So I literally just said this to Jen and it in an earlier meeting. But as I was reading quickly and I knew it was too fast, I was thinking to myself, there's a lot to admire in this book. Usually when I have that thought to myself where it's like, oh, I admire so much about this book, that usually means that, like, on an animal level, I don't like it or I'm not responding to it. I think in this case, Samantha Harvey is obviously a beautiful writer, and I think it's a true accomplishment of hers that she was able to put together this book in a way that doesn't feel like kind of puff, puff past literature. Can you imagine how that could be the worst nightmare kind of book if it's like, oh, they're above the Earth, man. Look, my hands covering Ghana. Like, what face is so cool. So it's not that at all. It's beautiful. It's profound. It has a very, very good handle on all sorts of. On like all sorts of scale of intimacy and profundity, and I totally admired that, but I was taking it in too much. Right.

[MJ Franklin]

What about you, Jen? Cause you said you thought you were gonna gobble it up and realized that you shouldn't and then kept dipping into it. What about this book and your reading experience made you realize that that was a thing that you needed to do?

[Jen Harlan]

So I think when I started first, this book has one of my favorite opening paragraphs of any book that I think I've ever read. The language is so.

[MJ Franklin]

I love a quote. Can you read a bit from it?

[Jen Harlan]

Yeah. She opens the book. Rotating about the Earth in their spacecraft. They are so together and so alone that even their thoughts, their internal mythologies, at times convene. Sometimes they dream the same dream of fractals and blue spheres and familiar faces engulfed in dark and of the bright, energetic black of space that slams their senses Raw space is a panther, feral and primal. They dream it stalking their quarters. And that to me just, I was like, I'm in. I am on this rollercoaster. I'm ready. I'm gonna rock it. No pun intended, through this book. And I really inhaled the first few chapters. And then I found myself getting a little sleepy. And I was like, I don't know if this is. Maybe it's just the holidays. Maybe I'm just again in that weird in between time where time loses its shape. But I think what I realized that I kept having to go back and read things as I got a few chapters in. And when I went back and read them, I really enjoyed them. And so to me, I think the thing I keep in my head comparing this book to is it's like a really, really intense dark chocolate or a really intense whiskey. It is very, very satisfying and rich when savored in small doses. But if I try to binge too much of it at once, then I can. I've never thought of a book as a kidney stone, but I can see where that that is coming, where it just becomes a bit of sensory overload. And I think it's also. Samantha Harvey packs so much into every sentence of this book. It's very tight, but every word in here counts and so rushing through it too much. I find myself missing a lot of things and also not. I needed to really take my time to fully grasp everything that was in each chapter.

[Jumana Khatib]

Mj, how about you? What are your thoughts about the book?

[MJ Franklin]

That's a good question. So at a glance, this is not a typical book for me because I don't gravitate toward, no pun intended, space as a topic. And that's not in a bad way or anything. I think everyone just has those things that they super, super love and things that just don't spark joy or as I like to say, not their ministry spaces. Not for me, not my ministry. What is though? Plotless, aimless, wandering, searching books where nothing really happens but the novel invites you to sit with a character or an idea or an atmosphere. And that was my hook here. I also love books with a tight frame. And Jen mentioned before, you're on one space station, six people, 24 hours, 16 orbits. And so that was my way in and I actually did gobble it up and won big reading session. And I loved it. I found I could see how you can get it get so meditative and so searching that it could feel dull. But what I loved is how. I don't know if this is the right word, kinetic. The book felt the ideas are bouncing all over the place. You're in the space station. You're with these mice. You're looking at Earth. You're watching this typhoon form. Then you're thinking about a painting. You're thinking about grief. And the ideas felt so active, even as the story in these characters are literally floating. They're weightless. And I loved that. And then half of my copy is underlined, starred. There are quotes with hearts next to them. I am not a feeler, I say. I actually joke that I've never met a feeling I couldn't bottle up. But this book turned me into this huge ball of emotion of just pausing and appreciating Earth and life and our human struggles and what it means to be alive and what it means to have connections with people and to lose those connections. And it just cast a spell on me. And I loved it so much. And that's all my emotions about it. But intellectually, I found that this book is so deft. Jen, you pointed out how compact and dense the sentences are. But in addition to emotions, it's just filled with interesting facts about space and about how it. What it means to exist in space. I never thought about the fact that you can't cry in space.

[Jen Harlan]

Yes. I was also really struck by that, where they have to collect all of their tears because you can't waste water or have water just floating around on the space station.

[Jumana Khatib]

Or just like the contradiction of being on a stationary bike in space. Like what? So that your muscles don't atrophy. It's insane.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah, it's insane and fascinating.

[Jumana Khatib]

Totally.

[MJ Franklin]

And so I felt like that's what kept me connected and engaged and active in this book. I do agree that there are some times that I felt a little bit lost and a little bit uninterested. And that came specifically when the astronauts went to sleep. Because so much of this book is about humanity itself. Once humanity retires and you're just observing the stars, then I was a little bit eager for the book to end. But I guess the last thing I would say is that I like to say that this is a book set in space, but about Earth in life. And I love that duality.

[Jen Harlan]

Yeah. Similar to the last few orbits after the astronauts are asleep and we're in their dreams. But you're also just having Harvey kind of meditating on Earth and humanity felt a little bit like closing credits to me. The action has ended, and now the writing continues to be really beautiful and evocative. But I Did find myself slowly dipping, disengaging, which is maybe the point. But from it at the end there just felt like we were continuing to spin around the Earth in all its beauty and wonder. But you've done so much of that already.

[MJ Franklin]

It's almost like a bedtime story. A bedtime story, like you're active, you're active. And then to get someone to go to sleep, the characters also go to sleep.

[Jen Harlan]

And that's also interesting you say bedtime story. Cause there's also. There's this really beautiful thing that happens at the end when the astronauts do fall asleep, where you go into their dreams and a lot of them return to their childhoods in those spaces. You have Chie, who's the Japanese astronaut who has lost her mother. Right before the book starts. Who I was. I found one of the most compelling characters who has this dream about being a child and climbing a mountain with her mother. You have Nell, who is the British astronaut who's dreaming about her. She was obsessed with the Challenger explosion when she was a child. And as they're. They're sort of reverting. There's a lot in this book about parent and child relationships and about both their relationships with their human parents, but also the Earth as a mother. And so they sort of revert to this childlike state at the very end, like the end of this cycle. And then you too are being lulled to sleep.

[Jumana Khatib]

One of the things that I found so impressive about this was the way that Samantha Harvey was not heavy handed in being like it's 24 hours, but they're gonna see the sun rise and set 16 times. Your body still has to sleep for seven hours. And sort of just like how these things that we take for granted in a lot of ways about just like the baseline of human existence or our circadian rhythm or like how we arrange our. Based on what's going on on Earth is like completely not possible for the astronauts and how they have to struggle to maintain a semblance of normal humanity while they're still in the shuttle. So I actually like. And what I kept trying to remind myself when I was reading this and also knowing that there were moments when I was dropping off or I was disengaging a bit. And then there would be something that would really pique my interest again. I was like, okay, this is like the circadian rhythm. Like they're gonna like the hours between 3 and 5pm I'm never paying attention to what's going on. And maybe so maybe these chapters are my 3 to 5pm and that's okay. I, I actually felt assured of the common humanity in this moment.

[MJ Franklin]

I want to dig in a little bit more and ask what were the chapters that really hooked you? And what were those moments where you're like, I'm just not interested. Was it a storyline? Was it a particular character?

[Jumana Khatib]

Chie with the, with the mother, with her mother passing away, partially because that touches, like, a very deep fear of mine. Talking about feeling on main. I mean, I loved hearing about the wives, like, and their spouses and the real, like. I mean, I loved thinking about how you maintain relationships, like, at that kind of incredible distance. I think that's beautiful. To me, that's like such an underexplored and very exalted kind of love. I, I love that. And I was very, very intrigued by that. And what did, what lost me? I don't know. I was interested in the typhoon the first time it came up. I was interested in the Typhoon the second time it came up. And then I was like, okay, I, I, we gotta move on.

[Jen Harlan]

We get it. There's a typhoon.

[Jumana Khatib]

I know. Or just like one of the commenters on the book club article actually ment. All the references to the geography were starting to blur together or actually interrupt his reading experience. And I see that, I see that. I think she handled it as skillfully as anybody could have. Where it's sort of like there's a moment when two of them are, like, repairing something on the outside of the craft. And it's, don't look down, don't look down. But then, of course, how do you not look down and realize that, like, oh, there's France and there's Germany, and then here's your foot. Like, how about you, mj?

[MJ Franklin]

Can I mount a defense for the typhoon?

[Jumana Khatib]

Yeah, please.

[MJ Franklin]

The Typhoon was not my favorite storyline overall. But what I appreciated about it is there's a sense that it's this looming disaster. Cause it is. There's a typhoon that's about to crash into the Philippines, I believe it is. And these astronauts are above Earth. They're above their home. They know we can try to send a signal down, but it won't get to people in time. And what I appreciated about that I mentioned earlier the emotional plus the intellectual element. The emotional stakes of that is so heightened. But what I intellectually appreciated about it is the reversal. The typhoon's not looming. The humans are. And I love that positionality to it. And this is a book that it's again, 24 hours. It's hard to have a hook, but this is the one that does give it energy. What's gonna happen? How are they gonna not. How are they gonna stop the typhoon? You can't stop a typhoon. But how are they gonna grapple with this idea of a disaster that's inching closer and closer and closer? So that's what I liked about it. At a certain point I was like, yeah, where is the typhoon? How often is this happening? Because it's so repetitive. 16 times that you're orbiting. It does sometimes lose its power, but as a shadow that the typhoon is casting. But it's not. Again, not the typhoon. It's like the orbit that's casting. I thought that was really effective.

[Jen Harlan]

It also to me felt evocative of the experience of the astronauts being there is that they are also going through so many sunrises and sunsets and seeing Earth so many times. They also start to lose perspective. And there's so much about perspective in this book. And I also, I think what I liked about the Typhoon is the contrast between the astronauts are sort of omnipresent. They can see everything from a perspective that no other human on Earth has, but they are also completely powerless to do any all they can do is take photos. And you have Pietro in particular, who had there's a family that he met on his honeymoon in the Philippines who he's thinking about and is concerned about are they going to be able to evacuate? But all you can really do is watch this disaster approach.

[MJ Franklin]

I completely agree and that's a good point. Like they're in the God position with no power. I loved that. I love this conversation. And we're going to continue. But first we should take a quick break.

[Zippy Owens]

This podcast is supported by Totally Booked with Zippy, the Webby award winning show formerly known as Moms don't have Time to Read Books each weekday on Totally Booked. Best selling author Zippy Owens, dubbed NYC's most powerful book fluencer by Vulture, sits down with the best and buzziest writers from best selling author Kristin Hannah to actress Jennifer Love Hewitt. And be stay on top of the latest book releases and hidden gems. Follow Totally Booked with Zibby on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite listening app. How have we been starting our mornings? The same old way since forever. Alarm clocks and OJ over and over. But if you've tried dull 100% pineapple juice, you know it's like sunshine in a can made with naturally sweet sunripened pineapples picked at peak freshness. One sip will transport you to the tropics Delicious. An excellent source of vitamin C, no added sugar. It's time for a refreshing change of pace. Dole 100% pineapple juice and a new, light, dull pineapple juice drink with 60% less sugar. Let your glow show.

[MJ Franklin]

And we're back. This is the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm talking to Zhumani Khatib and Gin Harlan, and we are discussing Orbital by Samantha Harvey. Now we're in the part of the show that I like to call Free Swim. What do you want to talk about? What do you want to bring up? Now, I'm following your lead.

[Jumana Khatib]

All right. I got my noodle. I got my pool noodle diving in.

[Jen Harlan]

My floaties are on. I have two thoughts. One, I was really interested by the pieces of art that come up in this book. And again, I think it all sort of plays into this question of perspective and scale that is running through the whole book. So you have the American astronaut Sean, who met his wife in high school in an art history class where they were talking about the Velazquez painting Las Meninas, which again, is a painting where it's very unclear who the subject of the painting is and who you're supposed to be looking at. There's a line that the teacher says when she's teaching them about this that his wife has written on a postcard he brought to space. And she says, welcome to the labyrinth of mirrors that is human life. And then you also have one of the Russian cosmonauts who was really fixated on a photograph that Michael Collins, who was one of the American astronauts on the moon mission, he was the one who stayed behind while his two fellow astronauts went and walked on the moon. And he took this photo where you can see the lunar landing module and then Earth beyond the moon. And people say that he, at the time was all of humanity is in this photo except for him. And that's sort of, I think, similar to the. The position that the astronauts are in, except you have this moon mission, which is one of the other rare. There's not a lot of plot in this book, but one of the plot points is that the first lunar mission in I think I forget how long, but in a long time has taken off the night before. And the astronauts on the space station have had this kind of sad little cobbled together party to celebrate this. But there's this very, very human cocktail of emotions that this brings up for them. There's both this feeling of solidarity with these other scientists, explorers who are venturing into space. Like them, they know exactly how dangerous and risky this is because they have done it themselves. You're basically strapping yourself to a bomb and venturing into an environment where you could die at any moment.

[MJ Franklin]

It is the peak of vulnerability.

[Jen Harlan]

Yes. But then there's also this weird sort of. It brings this kind of feeling of. Is of not irrelevance, but it puts there for a long time, I think, the space station, they have been the humans with the most perspective who have gone to the farthest reaches. They are at the farthest reaches of any human experience at this point in time. And now there are these three or four astronauts on a shuttle who have surpassed them. And what does that mean for the position of the astronauts that we're spending our book with?

[MJ Franklin]

I don't know about you. And maybe this is how they felt. There's jealousy at play.

[Jen Harlan]

Right.

[MJ Franklin]

Like, they're no longer at the peak. Someone has surpassed them in even a short, small way.

[Jumana Khatib]

I was also thinking about how. I think this is around the time that Scalia died, and he was actually very close friends with one of the liberal justices who said, I can't tell you what the bonds are like on. And this is in their iteration of the Supreme Court, but like nobody else, except for the nine of us, understands what this job is. And so you're really able to forge some, like, profound relationships you couldn't have with anybody that's not seated as a justice in this role. And I think has to be the same for these people. But I do think even just, like, eking out that little bit of jealous edge is such a good. Such a good. It's a good, like, emotional thing to.

[Jen Harlan]

Snag on, you know, I mean, even the space station itself is technically divided. You have the Russian section and then the everyone else section. And there's even a sign up by the bathroom that says, please use your national toilet.

[MJ Franklin]

And they all just ignore it.

[Jen Harlan]

Yes, they all just. They mock it. They ignore it. And then you have, like, conversations and debates about religion happening up there. You have. There are gender divides. You have two women and four men who are the astronauts. And so even in the space where you think we would have perhaps loftily, like, transcended all of the petty human earthly concerns, all of those things still play out in interesting and surprising ways.

[MJ Franklin]

And not just play out, but are encoded. They didn't choose to divide the bathrooms like what the earthly organizations that govern them did, and that is what is supposed to be dictating them. And then they have to decide once they're up there whether to act on that or to follow it or not. But it's not just that they are grappling with these, these earthly things, but it's encoded in the mission itself.

[Jumana Khatib]

Like you can't turn off until you can like the desire for your spouse back home. Right. Can you imagine sort of being in your like, little bat sleeping bag in space? First of all, you're in space. Can you imagine being in space?

[MJ Franklin]

Right.

[Jumana Khatib]

And it's, you know, you're there with like people that are ostensibly forming your. Your consciousness for the time being. But like, you just really, you really miss your wife or you really miss your husband. And. And then making that conscious decision where it's like, it's too painful to think about this right now. And I'm actually in such an altered state that like, I'm going to like power down this part of myself while I am this type of human right now.

[MJ Franklin]

But then there's another contrast, though. And this is again, the word contrast is how I would describe this book. Because there's one character who realizes just how much he loves his wife and how much he cherishes his wife. And he's thinking about this painting and feeling connected to her. And there's another character who up there is like, I need a divorce, don't I?

[Jumana Khatib]

Yeah, yeah.

[MJ Franklin]

And watching those two characters as foils for each other, I just found so interesting and fascinating. And I think in another book it could feel pat, but here it just felt very powerful. It felt like it keyed me in on how intentional, every parallel, every detail, etc. That Samantha Harvey has dropped into this book is. And how we are supposed to riff off of these connections.

[Jumana Khatib]

I think there are also some real consciousness expanding lessons you can take from that. So, like, I could be sitting next to somebody on the 2 train who's like deciding as we pull into 14th street, yeah, I am gonna leave my wife. We don't have to be in space. But it's amazing how in some ways having the extreme atmosphere and environment of this novel allows you to still even take some of those points that I think Samantha Harvey's trying to make and apply them to a very oxygenated, very low stress. By comparison, life here on Earth.

[MJ Franklin]

That actually gets at one of the questions I was gonna ask you, which is, what are you gonna take away from this book? Are there things that you're gonna take away from it? This book seems to be, in my mind, functioning almost like a parable. I think that's why it has that tight frame to tight frame, big image. I think it wants us to examine in a microcosm certain ideas. Take them with us. On a macro level, are there things that you're gonna take away from this book and if so, what?

[Jen Harlan]

I think this book brought up a lot of. Yeah, sort of like big, hard to wrap your arms around questions and issues that I found myself thinking about a lot after I read it, both the first time and then again for this I found myself thinking a lot about grief and about wonder and about parenthood and about perspective. And I think space itself also is something that feels hard to wrap our arms around. And the way that the book really and the astronaut's perspective really highlights both how teeny teeny tiny we are as our little speck in the cosmos. And yet the universe that is contained within that spec is something that I will be thinking about for a while.

[Jumana Khatib]

Agreed, it made me happy this book was not set in the deep ocean because that I think would have literally sent me to NYU Langone never to come out. Honestly, I know this sounds like a cop out, but a lot of the things that I am going to cling to are the very kind of matter of fact practical realities. It's really hard for your sinuses to drain.

[Jen Harlan]

I didn't realize you were congested the whole time.

[Jumana Khatib]

Completely awful. And honestly, what I do expect because I do have this not infrequently where like out of nowhere something will just smack me across the face or oh, this reminds me of this thing I read. Could be 10 years later, could be five years later, it could be tomorrow. I am fully locked and loaded for when that's going to happen with this book. And I don't know when it's going to hit.

[Jen Harlan]

Your thing about practical details reminded me of something I didn't realize. You could send care packages to the space station.

[Jumana Khatib]

What the honeycomb. What? And even just the detail about having something crunchy in space because that's what.

[Jen Harlan]

You crave just because everything else is processed. Mush that when she. Yeah, when Nell the astronaut brings out the honeycomb that her husband has sent her, that blew my mind. And also it like makes the whole experience feel like being at summer camp, which in a way is like being with a bunch of random strangers in this world that is far removed from your own. And you have these, you're very disconnected from home, but have these tiny reminders. And I was like, is. Is being an astronaut just going to camp?

[MJ Franklin]

The most dangerous summer camp?

[Jen Harlan]

Most dangerous summer camp not even on earth offer.

[Jumana Khatib]

It didn't even hit me until now. But like they are such a communal, like little colony. And just the idea that it's like they've got honeycomb. Like we're thinking like bees, man. Like it's a beautiful little sweet treat. Oh my God, I hope this doesn't make it. I hope it does.

[MJ Franklin]

I hope it does.

[Jumana Khatib]

Mj, save me. What are you gonna take away from this book?

[MJ Franklin]

So this book brought up to me the capital R, Romanticism sense of the sublime, which I have a little definition written up, which is the terrifying feeling of awe. That's what is channeled in this book. And that's what I kept thinking about. And yeah, I. When we think of Romanticism, we think about trees and nature. So to have the sublime in space was really fun. The thing that I'm going to take away from this book is I think what you both have said already. Just the opportunity to pause and appreciate life on Earth and how the tiny moments really matter. That's already been said. So I'm going to add. The thing I'm going to take away are the many, many beautiful quotes. The many beautiful quotes. Can I read one?

[Jen Harlan]

Please do.

[MJ Franklin]

This is the one that has a heart. I'm showing it to the studio can confirm but it's on page 13 if anyone wants to follow along. The Earth from here is like heaven. It flows with color. A burst of hopeful color. When we're on that planet, we look up and think heaven is elsewhere. But here is what the astronauts and cosmonauts sometimes think. Maybe all of us born to it have already died and are in an afterlife. If we must go to an improbable hard to believe and place when we die, that glassy distant orb with its beautiful lonely light shows could well be it. So that's one. Another quote 173 Time moves on with its usual nihilism, mows us all down, jaw droppingly insensate to our preference for living. There are these just. Every page has these beautiful, beautiful moments of. Of what it means to be alive. One other one that I wanted to read is on page 134 and it's just. In 5 billion years when Earth is long dead, it will be a love song that outlives spent sons. And that's because of that record that's been sent to space. They're just. There are these beautiful emotionally freighted quotes that I just love.

[Jen Harlan]

I also. I had a whole. There was a note on my phone where I kept dictating quotes as I came across them because I wanted to remember them.

[MJ Franklin]

Any favorites?

[Jen Harlan]

Oh man, there I have so many. I don't have page numbers for any of these, so listeners will have to hunt around. I really loved There's a part early in the book where Roman, who's one of the Russian astronauts, was talking about how he catalogs every minute that he has spent in space. How many minutes, how many times he has changed his shirt, how many times he has brushed his teeth. And Harvey writes that he does this not to wish the time away, but to try to tether it to something countable.

[MJ Franklin]

I love that quote. And speaking of quotes that I love, I know we are running out of time in this episode, but before we go, I just want to shout out some reader comments, some reader quotes, if you will, and then share some Orbital inspired book recommendations. Let's do those reader comments first. This month we have had this robust conversation online on our book club hub for Orbital. There's an article on the New York Times website headlined Book Club Read Orbital by Samantha Harvey with the Book Review. Readers from all over the world have been sharing their thoughts about the book, and I just wanted to jump in and highlight a few comments that stood out to me. First, we have Julie from Ohio, who writes, the book was great. I loved the language of it. But what resonated most was the feeling of hovering 250 miles above the planet and knowing that the things that divide us, the things that categorize us, the things that define us, are unimportant. I became an earthling living on a spectacular planet for a very brief moment. Yuval from New York, says, Samantha Harvey manages to balance the human and the cosmic perspective with quiet tension, and the result is a disquieting open endedness, a weightlessness. If you didn't love the book, you're not alone. One reader, Cole in Pittsburgh, wrote and said, in space, no one can hear you yawn, which I thought was very harsh but very poetically sad. And then just one other last comment that I really loved. Michael from Dublin says, on first reading, I wasn't a fan of this book. It was too slow, it was too pedestrian in terms of pace. As I spent more time with it, however, I grew to enjoy its modus opera. Beautiful prose that doesn't always take you forward, but grabs you and holds you over the unfathomable blackness. Those are just a few of the comments that stood out. There's a lot more conversation happening online. Again, there is a website headlined Book Club Read Orbital by Samantha Harvey with the Book Review. Go check out what other readers have to say there. And I just want to say huge thank you to everyone who commented and who read along with us. And last but not least, before we go, those aforementioned book recommendations. This recommendation segment is going to be very broad, amorphous, partially because that's what the book is. So I'm going to ask the room what is something that you would recommend readers pick up after Orbital? This does not have to be specifically a book about space. It could be a book that also made you feel meditative. It could be a book with a similar prose style. It could be a book with a typhoon. Up to you. I'm just going to ask the room what is a book that you would pair with Orbital?

[Jen Harlan]

So this might be a slightly left field recommendation because it is neither fiction nor at all related to space. But the book that I found myself thinking about a lot as I read this and wanting to return to again was Braiding Sweetgrass, which is by the indigenous botanist Robin Wall Kimmerer. If Orbital is the most zoomed out version of a book looking at Earth and the human experience from millions of miles away, then Braiding Sweetgrass is the sort of juxtaposed the other pole of that which is the most zoomed in view looking at humans and our relationship to the natural world down to the speck of dirt leaf root level. And even though it is a nonfiction book and not fiction, I also found I find Kimmerer's writing so lyrical and also very meditative. And similarly to this, I think is a book that every time I read it I find myself dipping in for a chapter, really soaking in one particular essay of the book and then taking some time to process. It's a book that's very easy to like dip in and out of. That found me asking questions about my relationship to Earth and to the community of humans and non human living beings on this earth and that I found to be a nice companion.

[MJ Franklin]

I love that. And can I just say, I love having in general companion books, books that you just not just books that you read, but books that keep you company that clank around in the back of your mind that you can always return to, like coming home. So thank you. What about you, Jomana?

[Jumana Khatib]

I have two. Okay. One of the things that I responded to most in this novel was the feeling of of how cloistered these people are and if you are like me. And that kind of made your brain light up a little bit. I really love the novel the Body in Question by Jill Simmond. It's about two Jurors who fall in love during a murder trial when they're empaneled. So they're just sort of like, kicking around these, like, econo lodges in Central Florida and going to, like, the Cheesecake Factory and, like, falling in love and chain smoking. So. And it's amazing because, like, the, a big part of that book, like, hinges on what it's like for them to sort of stagger Blinker back into the real world when the case is over. So you have that sort of, like, atmospheric change.

[MJ Franklin]

Can I say two quick things? One is that I am picturing the literary version of that show, Jury Duty. Is that what this is about?

[Jumana Khatib]

Basically, yes. Yes.

[MJ Franklin]

And then two, I have not read any other Joseph other than her memoir, Consent, which I personally really loved. I thought it was so thoughtful.

[Jen Harlan]

I haven't read any of her.

[Jumana Khatib]

Jill's amazing.

[Jen Harlan]

I'm going to add both of these to my list now.

[Jumana Khatib]

So good. She's so smart. And yeah, I, I, this is very different than Consent. She has such a wild intelligence to her that she manages to, like, wrestle down into books. The other book that I'm thinking of is a comp, Very literal, where MJ sort of started trying to get the juices flowing. And I was like, space book. Okay. Beauty Land. Marie Helene Bertino. This is actually a very sweet novel. It's like Orbital in reverse and sort of like reverse Rorschach test almost, where it's like, there's a little space creature who's sent down to Earth named Adina and tries to make her way among humanity. And it actually helps you arrive at some greater understanding of our commonalities and our differences. And it's just a fun book. It's fun.

[MJ Franklin]

Thank you for that recommendation. So I have a few recommendations. The first is the essay In Defense of Saccharine by Leslie Jamison. This is in her essay collection, the Empathy Exam. But after I finished reading this, I was like, why am I a ball of emotion? And why do I feel a little bit embarrassed by this? And so I wanted some comfort. I wanted to think through that. And In Defense of Saccharine is exactly that essay. Second, speaking of big feelings, is George Saunders. I think George Saunders books just have a big heart. I personally really love his story collection, the 10th of December. But also Lincoln and the Bardo is a, a very strange book filled with ghosts, and it's set in another liminal space. This is a Bardo, which is, for lack of a better explanation, like a purgatory. But it's grappling with grief and what it's like to be alive and what we take with us. All of that good stuff. There was a reader in our comment section who said that this book is like reading Virginia Woolf in space. And I completely agree. And so I wanted to recommend one is Mrs. Dalloway. Talk about a tight frame, big picture. And then two to the Lighthouse, which also a lot of life folded into a few scenes. So go check out Virginia Woolf, sweeping.

[Jen Harlan]

And intimate at the same time.

[MJ Franklin]

And I guess the last one, because I want to talk about romanticism and nature and all that stuff, is the vaster wilds. Talk about feeling lost and alone and isolated and in a terrifying awe. So that's what I got.

[Jen Harlan]

I love this real kaleidoscope of recommendations we've got here, which I think speaks a lot to how much there is to explore in this very tiny book.

[MJ Franklin]

It's a book that opens up quite a lot, I think. Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today. So I just want to say, Joumana, Jen, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. This was so much fun.

[Jumana Khatib]

Thank you, MJ And I just want.

[MJ Franklin]

To say thank you to everyone who read along with us. Again, we have an article headlined Book Club Read Orbital by Samantha Harvey with the Book Review online. Continue the conversation there. And now is the time for our big March book reveal. In March, we will be reading We Do Not Part by Hong Kong. Hope you'll join us. Right now there's an article up on the New York Times website. I bet you can guess what it is. It is a Book club read We Do Not Part by Hong Kong with the Book Review. You can jump into the conversation online. We will be talking about the book on the podcast that airs on March 28th. So we'll see you then. But until next time, happy reading.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That was MJ Franklin, Xumana Khatib and Jennifer Harlan talking about Samantha Harvey's Orbital as part of our monthly book review Book Club. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. Thank you for listening.