Book Club: Let's Talk About 'The Safekeep'

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Book Review – Book Club: Let's Talk About 'The Safekeep'

Release Date: May 30, 2025
Host: Gilbert Cruz
Guests: MJ Franklin, Zumanika Teeb, Anna Dubenco, and special guest Maddy (Audio Engineer)
Book Discussed: "The Safekeep" by Yael van der Vowden

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Introduction to the Book Club Episode

At 00:42, host Gilbert Cruz introduces the episode as the monthly Book Club session featuring "The Safekeep" by Yael van der Vowden. MJ Franklin, Zumanika Teeb, and Anna Dubenco join him to delve into this acclaimed debut novel, which was nominated for the 2024 Booker Prize. The book is praised for its intricate portrayal of obsession, loss, and the nuanced dynamics of family and reclaiming one's past.

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Overview of "The Safekeep"

Anna Dubenco provides an elevator synopsis at 03:32, highlighting that "The Safekeep" is a work of historical fiction set in the Netherlands in 1961. The narrative centers on Isabel, an unlikable protagonist devastated by her parents' death and obsessed with maintaining her family home. Her life takes a turn when Ava, her older brother's girlfriend, stays for a few weeks, setting the stage for intense character interactions and hidden motives.

Notable Quote:
"The Safekeep draws us into a world as carefully calibrated as a Dutch still life." – Booker Judges

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Character Analysis: Isabel

MJ Franklin shares her experience with Isabel at 05:21, initially finding the character less offensive than other readers who criticized Isabel for being mean-spirited. MJ appreciates Isabel's complexity, describing her as a "profoundly unhappy person" who is both judgmental and vulnerable.

Anna Dubenco adds at 08:19 that Isabel is "so tightly wound" and "obsessed with herself," which complexities the reader's engagement with her character. The portrayal balances Isabel's outward harshness with her internal grief and loneliness.

Notable Quote:
"Isabel is not a people pleaser to say the least." – Anna Dubenco at 06:56

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Themes and Plot Development

The discussion at 05:05 transitions into the broader themes of the novel, such as grief, possession, and the lingering effects of history on the present. Anna emphasizes how the narrative intertwines Isabel's personal struggles with the haunting legacy of World War II.

At 14:56, Gilbert Cruz introduces the complex relationship between Isabel and Ava, highlighting the twist where Ava reveals her true motive—reclaiming her family's stolen home. This revelation adds depth to the narrative, exploring themes of injustice, memory, and revenge.

Notable Quote:
"I had to keep this conversation more accessible to a general audience, so we tried to keep the first half spoiler light." – Gilbert Cruz at 02:28

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Big Plot Twist: Ava's True Motive

At 24:44, after a brief pause, MJ Franklin unveils the major plot twist: Ava's intrusion into Isabel's life is driven by a deep-seated desire to reclaim the family home their family lost during World War II. Ava's family had to flee, and upon returning, she discovers that Isabel's family has occupied their ancestral home due to unpaid taxes and mortgages. This twist redefines the narrative, shifting the focus from personal vendettas to historical restitution.

Anna Dubenco reflects at 26:46 on how the twist effectively intertwines personal relationships with historical grievances, enhancing the emotional weight of the story.

Notable Quote:
"What is enough? She had held a pear in her hand and she had eaten it, skin and all... the hunger still sat in her like an open maw." – Gilbert Cruz reading at 21:49

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Symbolism and Literary Devices

The guests discuss the rich symbolism employed in the novel, particularly the recurring motifs of fruit and domestic settings. The scene where Isabel devours a pear (19:19) symbolizes her internal turmoil and inability to find satisfaction or fulfillment. The house itself is portrayed almost as a character, representing history, memory, and the burdens of the past.

Notable Quote:
"A fruit in literature is never just a fruit." – MJ Franklin at 21:49

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Reader Reactions and Online Engagement

Gilbert Cruz shares online reader comments at 10:13, showcasing the book's impact:

• Wavy from Vancouver admires the authentic portrayal of the Dutch post-war experience.
• Beth from Oak Park praises the intricate character development and atmospheric setting.
• Nicholas from Madison commends the novel's plotting and lasting emotional resonance.

Special guest Maddy, the podcast's audio engineer, contributes her perspective at 11:53, appreciating the book's unique take on the Holocaust narrative and its emotional complexity.

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Critical Reception and Author's Intent

Anna Dubenco discusses at 27:57 the author's intent to present a perspective rarely explored in Holocaust literature—focusing on the perpetrator's side and their motivations without delving into victimhood. This approach adds layers to the narrative, challenging readers to grapple with moral ambiguities and historical injustices.

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Concluding Thoughts and Future Recommendations

As the conversation winds down around 35:47, the hosts and guests exchange book recommendations that complement the themes explored in "The Safekeep." Recommendations include:

• Anna Dubenco: "The Torqued Man" by Peter Mann and "The Little Stranger" by Sarah Waters.
• MJ Franklin: "Mice, 1961" – a novel set in the same year as "The Safekeep," exploring domestic drama against political upheaval.
• Gilbert Cruz: "The New Life" by Tom Cru – a historical novel delving into early gay rights movements and complex relationships.

Notable Quote:
"This book is a little triumph." – Gilbert Cruz at 34:45

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Looking Ahead: June's Book Club Selection

Before closing, Gilbert Cruz announces the June Book Club selection: "Mrs. Dalloway" by Virginia Woolf, celebrating its 100th anniversary. Listeners are encouraged to read along and join the discussion in the upcoming episode on June 27.

Notable Quote:
"In June, we are reading Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Woolf... Let’s chat about the book and its impact." – Gilbert Cruz at 39:05

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Conclusion

The episode provides an in-depth exploration of "The Safekeep," highlighting its complex characters, thematic depth, and emotional resonance. The discussion balances spoiler-sensitive analysis with thoughtful commentary, making it accessible and engaging for both listeners familiar with the book and those new to it.

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Join the Conversation:
Continue discussing "The Safekeep" and share your thoughts at the New York Times Book Review website.

Subscribe:
Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts on nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

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This summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, focusing on the key discussions, character analyses, thematic explorations, and notable moments, while providing timestamps and speaker attributions for significant quotes.

Transcript

[Stephen King]

New from legendary storyteller Stephen King. Never Flinch, a riveting new novel where vengeance has two faces. A killer on a twisted mission to murder 13 innocents and one guilty in the name of justice. A stalker in pursuit of a feminist icon. Two electrifying storylines and an unforgettable finale with fan favorite Holly Gibney caught in the crossfire. The New York Times says King raises the stakes and the body count as the twin plots converge with when the addiction is to murder. Never Flinch. Never Flinch. New from Stephen King. Available in bookstores and online.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review Podcast. This week, our monthly Book Club episode, M.J. franklin and Friends are here to discuss the Safekeep by Yael van der Waden. Here you go. Hello and welcome to another book club episode of the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review, and for this month's Book Review Book Club, we're talking about the Safekeep by Yael van der Vowden. The Safe Keep came out last year, and I think it's safe to say it was one of the buzziest books of 2024. In addition to the excitement and critical acclaim it earned, it was also nominated for the 2024 Booker Prize, with the booker judges saying the Safekeep draws us into a world as carefully calibrated as a Dutch still life. We love this debut novel for its remarkable inhabitation of obsession. It navigates an emotional landscape of loss and return in an unforgettable way. But that's only part of why we chose the Safekeep as our May Book Club book. We also chose this just because personally, the Safekeep has grown into my go to book recommendation. And if it's a book that I keep recommending, it's a book that I keep talking about. I think that makes a good book club book. Also, what's a book club without friends? Joining me in the studio are two returning guests, Zumanika Teeb, a fellow editor here at the Book Review and a familiar voice on the Book Review Podcast. Hi, Joumana.

[M.J. Franklin]

Hi mj. I'm happy to be here.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Thank you for coming back. And Anna Dubenco is the New York Times newsroom's audience director and a friend of the Book Review. Welcome back.

[Anna Dubenco]

Thank you for having me. I've been begging to come back and talk about this particular book.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I am so excited to dig in. Before we dig in, though, I just have two admin Notes up top one is that at the end of the episode we will reveal our June Book Club book. So stay with us until the end to find out what we're reading next and and then second, There will be spoilers in this conversation. This is one where there are so many plot twists that it's impossible to talk about this one without revealing something that isn't obvious from the start of the book. But here's what we're going to do to try to keep this conversation more accessible to a general audience. For people who have read this who haven't, we are going to try to keep the first half of this conversation spoiler light. There will be some spoilers. Again, it's hard to talk about without revealing something, but we will save the big twist to the second half of the episode. So choose your own adventure for this conversation. Listen to the first half, listen to the whole episode, pause, read the book, and then come back to us. I defer to you, but we are going to dig in. So without further ado, let's get to it. To get us started, could someone give us a quick 1 minute elevator synopsis of the safekeep what is this book about?

[Anna Dubenco]

I can try without spoilers. It's nearly impossible to say anything about the book without a spoiler, but I'll give it a shot first, the first thing to know is that this book is a work of historical fiction. It takes place in the Netherlands in 1961, and that date is really important as it really sets the stage for what the characters remember or what they forget about who and where they were during the war. It follows a protagonist, Isabel, who is really unlikable. She's a middle sister, the most unlikable thing there. I'm an only child, so I just. I call him like I see him. She's a middle sister and she lives in her family home, which is outside of the city. Her parents have passed. Her brothers, at least for the moment, don't have interest in the house, though she very much does have interest in this house that she resides in. She's both psychologically and physically circumscribed by the house in its care. And then one day she meets her older brother's girlfriend, Ava, who comes to stay for a few weeks in the summer. How's that?

[Gilbert Cruz]

I think that's good. Jumana, anything that you would add?

[M.J. Franklin]

No, I'm ready to get to this because Anna had a nice provocation when we were getting ready for this podcast where she said, joumana, I can't wait to fight with you about this. And I was like, I like this book. I like this book a lot.

[Anna Dubenco]

Lot.

[M.J. Franklin]

Like I'm not coming to the mat to fight. I'm ready to bask in shared glory here.

[Anna Dubenco]

We never like the same. I know this is a thing.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I know I have many follow up questions. 1. I want to hear both of your thoughts about the book and I want to hear why you thought you Jumana wouldn't. If it's just that you don't like the same books, let's just dig in. What are your general top level thoughts about the book? Love it, hate it, feel mixed. You scooped it a little bit, but Jumana talked to us.

[M.J. Franklin]

Okay. So I really liked this book. I devoured it much like Isabel eats a pear core and all. That's not a spoiler.

[Anna Dubenco]

It's on the COVID That's not.

[M.J. Franklin]

Yeah, it's literally on the COVID So when I was reading a lot of reader feedback about this book, I saw how many people were like, Isabel is horrible. Like, I almost put the book down because I couldn't stand her. And I was like, oh, I never felt that way. I always felt a weird sort. I love an underdog. I so I, I was endeared to her even though she was so annoying. If I had to live with her or let alone be like dealing with property or deeds or inheritances with her, I would do something drastic.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Well, talk to us. What makes her annoying? What is she doing? What is she saying? Give us more of Isabel's character.

[M.J. Franklin]

She's so type A. She's extremely judgmental. She is obsessive. One of the opening gambits is that she finds a piece of porcelain that belongs to a beloved plate. And part of Isabel's whole life is that she's trying to maintain the house down to the T to the way that her mother kept it. So she has this sort of almost like holy ritual of polishing the flatware. And she thinks her maid is stealing from her, so she's counting spoons. And she doesn't like Ava and she's judgmental about her brother's lifestyles. And she's miserable, right? And she doesn't even warm to the sort of local guy that's trying to take her out. She seems to me like a profoundly unhappy person.

[Anna Dubenco]

She's not a people pleaser to say the least.

[Gilbert Cruz]

But then she's also grieving. She's grieving too deeply. In her own way. She's the worst. She's so mean. But she's Also lost and confused and.

[M.J. Franklin]

Vulnerable because it like. Cause the house is gonna go to her older brother whenever he wants to start a family. So she's really. She's in this terrible limbo where it's like she's lucky that her brother sort of wants to carouse around and not settle down. But she could be evicted at any moment. She has no claim to that house.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Some readers had that hurdle. They did not like Isabel. You didn't have an issue with her. Tell me more about your top level thoughts about the book.

[M.J. Franklin]

I think the book also was extremely well constructed. I think it. I think, Anna, the way you were talking about how Isabel was constrained by the house, psychologically and physically. I think that the way that the book is written really gets at that. It's so well done. And I frankly, I like the take on history. I like the twist. It didn't feel sticky. It didn't feel overdone. I do have to say, mj, did I not call it? We're not going to talk it. We're not going to talk right now. But I have to say I think I almost called it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I tried to be so, like elliptical in my response to you because I didn't want to confirm or deny.

[M.J. Franklin]

You have a great poker face.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Thank you. But we'll talk about later. Twist them a bit later. Anna, tell me about your top level thoughts about this book and what did you think about Isabel? Let's start with the top level thoughts first.

[Anna Dubenco]

Well, just what Jomana just said now about the construction of the book. The character of Isabel is so tightly wound. In the beginning, she's always pinching the back of her. The skin on the back of her hand. And then she, much like the narrative, unwinds in a really raucous way. I suppose we'll talk about chapter 10 when. First half, maybe.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I don't remember what happens in chapter 10.

[M.J. Franklin]

It's the chapter. It's the chapter.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay, great.

[M.J. Franklin]

Yeah, we just. Yeah, we're not numbers people. We were doing the book review, Anna. Yeah, okay.

[Anna Dubenco]

But just to your point, I reread this book recently in preparation for this. In two sittings on Mother's Day. It was a great Mother's Day read. And just going back and seeing how perfectly constructed it was, the clues that are dropped along the way like breadcrumbs that are not obvious and shticky, to your point, but just make so much sense. It's such a delight to read a book like that and then to reread it and to find anew what you would miss is just like the best.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Tell me what you thought about Isabel.

[Anna Dubenco]

I became obsessed with her obsession. I think what she does so well is you think this book is about one thing. You think this book is about Isabel's grieving, her relationship to her mother, her relationship to herself. You get as obsessed with her as she is with herself and that's what you think the book is about. And then it turns. And in fact, that's a very that's an important sort of feeling that you you're following her and you're just hyper focused on her inner life to to the detriment of being aware of what's going on around her. So I thought that was really effective.

[M.J. Franklin]

How about you mj? What did you think?

[Gilbert Cruz]

I have many thoughts about this book, which I'll share in a second. But first I just want to share some online reader comments. We have an article up on the New York Times website Headline Book Club Read the Safekeep by Yael van der Vowden with the Book Review and there's a robust conversation boning in the comment section. There's Here are just a few that I wanted to share. Wavy from Vancouver says, having grown up in the Netherlands, where World War II was a frequent topic at school and among classmates, what brave thing did your parents grandparents do during the war? I was fascinated to see this side of it in literature and in translation. Not everyone was heroic and I love that a piece of blue and white pottery brings this to light. Beth from Oak park says, this book grabbed ahold of me from the first paragraph. The broken china was a mystery, as was Isabel. Her character was so finely drawn. The house was its own character too. I felt its creaks in size. Along with Isabel, Nicholas from Madison writes, I still have not stopped thinking about this book since reading it in October. I've recommended it to all my reader friends with the cryptic, you must read this book, but I can't tell you anything about it. And you can't look up anything about it either. It is incredibly impressive for a debut novel, so well plotted and paced. Although the ending is less than perfect, the rest is very close. I have no doubt that it will stick with me forever. And then one reader I'm so excited to bring into the conversation is Maddy, our audio engineer. Maddy is great. She is one of the people that makes sure that this show is even possible. She keeps me saying, maddie, you have read this book independently with of Book Club. Can you tell us what did you think about this book?

[M.J. Franklin]

Longtime listener, first time caller, so Happy to be here. Yeah, Maddie. But, yeah, I feel like I agree with all of those reader comments, and I don't want to spoil anything yet, but it was interesting and hard to grapple with hearing a perspective of the Holocaust that hasn't really been explored in any media that I've consumed. So that was something to really examine.

[Gilbert Cruz]

What did you think of Isabel?

[M.J. Franklin]

She was tough for me. I think I was probably closer in the camp of man. I actually might not be able to see through this because I didn't like her. But you knew that eventually she was going to break. So I think you just had to keep that in mind to keep going.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Readers, listeners, one of my favorite things to do is when we are debriefing the studio, I always ask Maddie, what are you reading right now? And you always are reading the most interesting things. So I'm glad this lined up.

[M.J. Franklin]

We couldn't do this without you, Maddie, Literally.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Thank you, Maddie.

[M.J. Franklin]

So, mj, okay, you've put it off long enough. What are your thoughts about this book?

[Gilbert Cruz]

The big mystery is I'm not going.

[M.J. Franklin]

To do the Dance of the Seven Veils with you.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I really loved this book and I also marathon read it. I actually have this tradition that I do on New Year's Day every year where I marathon read my first book of the year on the first day of the year. What else am I going to be doing on New Year's Day other than just like sitting on the couch and I'm like, let's read a book. And this was it. And I've been obsessed with it ever since. And you said something interesting that I completely agree with, which is the two tones of the book. The start of the book really is just Isabelle and it's broody, dark character study. And Isabelle is mean, but also so vulnerable and complicated in the ways we mentioned before. And I just got sucked into her character. She also, in addition to being mean, she can just drop a quippy one liner that like, I was literally snapping and cheering in my apartment. Like when she, her brother says to her about Eva or Ava, you'll be nice to her. And she's like, I will be nothing to her. I love that. Yes, Queen, we stand.

[Anna Dubenco]

Not a people pleaser until later.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And then I feel like the plot picks up and that just. The story just goes. And there are twist after twisting and you can see the twists from a mile away, but that doesn't make them any less satisfying to me. And I think that is a testament to Helvander Vowden's writing. She creates such an intense emotional investment in these characters that we're not reading to figure out what happens, per se. We're reading to be along with these people as it happens, which I really loved. So I got nothing but praise for this book. We've been keeping this kind of spoiler light. We're still saving the big, big twist to later, but the first twist I'm just gonna reveal in the house. Isabelle and Eva get together after how many?

[M.J. Franklin]

Like, two weeks, right? Or is it long?

[Gilbert Cruz]

I actually don't know.

[Anna Dubenco]

Days feel like weeks in that house.

[M.J. Franklin]

So originally, Ava was gonna be there for a month while her boyfriend, who is Isabel's brother, for business. But, yeah, for all we know, the way time moves in that house could have been five days, could have been two weeks. But, yes.

[Gilbert Cruz]

What did you make of that twist?

[M.J. Franklin]

I loved it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Tell me more.

[Anna Dubenco]

When they kissed.

[Gilbert Cruz]

When they kissed. Yeah. Tell me more. Tell me. Tell me everything.

[Anna Dubenco]

Do you read romance novels?

[M.J. Franklin]

Not really. I mean, I'm coming off of. I'm coming off of that string of Emily Henry because I was like, oh, this is grumpy Sunshine. Like, I know the tropes now.

[Anna Dubenco]

A friend who is a. I am not a reader of romance novels, but a friend who is a reader of romance novels, like, you saw it coming from a mile away. And she's like, oh, this is a classic romance novel trope to lovers.

[M.J. Franklin]

One house confinement.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, for me, I knew that they were gonna get together. Cause it was pitched as, like, this queer historical novel. So I knew, here are two women stuck in a house. Something's gonna happen. But it was so satisfying to me because of not just the enemies to lovers, but because of how isolated, specifically Isabel seems. The romance wasn't, to me, just a triumph of a coupling, but it was looking at this person who was grieving and unraveling, kind of bloom into herself in a way. And I really love that. And there is a sensuality to the prose. One of the things I was noticing actually in the very first chapter or two are just the number of touches that happen between people. She notes that, like, her brother will put his hand on her shoulder. Or that when Ava touches her and she just is hyper aware of touch in a way that also drew you in. Then you get the pair scene. What's chapter 10? Is that the Parisine or is that the.

[M.J. Franklin]

That's when they actually have sex for the first time.

[Anna Dubenco]

And in. In the acknowledgments, if you'll indulge me, she ends with this whole podcast is.

[M.J. Franklin]

Indulging you, by the way. To be clear.

[Anna Dubenco]

She says she's thanking her family, and then she ends that graph with, thank you all for not talking to me about chapter 10. You're very respectful people.

[M.J. Franklin]

And it's so European.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I love that.

[Anna Dubenco]

I just. I was thinking about what it must be like to write that chapter. Basically a chapter that is a sex. One long sex scene.

[M.J. Franklin]

One long sex scene.

[Anna Dubenco]

And have your family read it.

[M.J. Franklin]

Okay. So I actually, I'm glad you mentioned this, because 1:1. Another recurring thing that I saw readers say is that they felt the sex was gratuitous and that they felt that the sex dragged on and it didn't advance the plot at all or it felt tedious, which is like the kiss of death for a sex scene. And I did not feel that way at all. I, I, I actually had a lot of respect for how she staged the sex scenes because even, like, it's still so grounded in the house. There's a moment when Isabel is looking at Ava, who's in bed, and I think Isabelle is sort of on the threshold of the door, and it's like there's an entire room between them, and they both knew it. And crossing that space to go to her, it's. I think it was beautifully done. And I didn't feel that it was prurient or gratuitous at all. I respect the fact that people thought it was too much.

[Anna Dubenco]

It was well earned because it was such a. She had created such an atmosphere of tension that the release felt. If it were very short or pan to the fireplace style, I think it wouldn't have been as well earned.

[M.J. Franklin]

Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree with that. And just even before we know the big twist, I did feel some karmic justice for Isabel, where it's like, I mean, I know that I'm talking about her vulnerability and, like, she's kind of at her brother's whim, her uncle's whim, but, like, just knowing that she could claim for herself something that her brother had, it added to the satisfaction. What can I say?

[Anna Dubenco]

Yep.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So that's chapter 10. But one of the things that we alluded to that we didn't totally dig in is the Parisine. Can someone tell us what the Parisine is?

[M.J. Franklin]

Yes, I will. I will take this one. So. So within days, I think Ava's going stir crazy in this house, and she can't really understand how Isabel rarely leaves. And she says, I'm gonna go into town. And Isabelle's like, well, the only bike you can use is probably too big for you. I mean, like, truly, truly, like, wet blanket. So, of course, Ava bikes into town and she comes back and Isabel returns to the house. And she sees that Ava's bought two pears for them. And they're very ripe, extremely ripe pears and. And such a moment of pleasure and succulence and like this, like, mausoleum, like, house. Isabelle is moved by the gesture because she still hasn't really made any accommodation for Eva. What. Or Eva, whatsoever. And, of course, it has an erotic feel to it. I mean, like, look at the pairs on the COVID One of them is literally has a beadlet of water dripping down it. And then finally, what Isabel does is she can't stand the thought of somebody seeing her eat it because it's, like, too sensual, it's too vulnerable. It's too. I think she's afraid of her own desire and, like, arousal, maybe. So she goes to her bed. She, like. She eats it like, I think, like an animal. She eats a whole thing. Coronal. And she has this habit of shoving quilts or blankets in her mouth when she's overwhelmed. And that's what it felt like to me.

[Anna Dubenco]

Very well done, without any spoilers. Though I will say, that scene, when refracted through what we come to find later in the book about what Ava was doing when she went into town and Isabelle's warning, like, you don't even know how to get there. And just how focused the reader is on the eating of the pear, her devouring the pear. You are obsessed with Isabel, like I said before, as much as she is obsessed with herself in that moment. And there's this whole other narrative happening just outside of that pear eating that your attention is totally not drawn to because it is such a visceral moment.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It's. That whole pair scene is loaded with so much. And the reason why I also wanted to ask about it is because later on, there is. We were talking about how the sex is gratuitous, but it represents so much. And there's a sense that, like. And just in sex writing in general, the sex is never just about the sex. It reveals so much. In the same way, I think, did you say this online? That a fruit in literature is never just a fruit?

[M.J. Franklin]

It's so true. And I'm sorry, but, like, how much more could you want of a subversion of the fall of woman than a woman named Ava? Tempting Isabel with a pear? Again, doesn't hit you over the head, but, hello, it's like original woman here with a fruit.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And it takes you to one of my favorite quotes from the book. I'm just going to read it. And it's Isabel and Ava having this conversation about their relationship. And Ava says, isn't it better than nothing? Isn't it enough? And Isabel and Vandervalden writes, isabel took a breath to answer and found that she had no answer to give, found that she did not know the precise meaning of the word enough, the way Ava used it, not what it meant in relation to another, in relation to her. She had held a pear in her hand and she had eaten it, skin and all. She had eaten the stem and she had eaten its seeds and she had eaten its core. And the hunger still sat in her like an open maw, like the idea of fulfillment and pleasure and satisfaction and what is enough. And it's connected to the sex and the fruit and this relationship. And so much is happening. And I feel like we could keep talking, but I do want to talk about the big plot twist that happen, which we will do shortly. But first I think we should take a quick break.

[Stephen King]

New from legendary storyteller Stephen King. Never Flinch, a riveting new novel where vengeance has two faces. A killer on a twisted mission to murder 13 innocents and one guilty in the name of justice. A stalker in pursuit of a feminist icon. Two electrifying storylines and an unforgettable finale with fan favorite Holly Gibney caught in the crossfire. The New York Times says King raises the stakes and the body count as the twin plots converge when the addiction is to murder. Never Flinch. Never Flinch. New from Stephen King. Available in bookstores and online.

[Anna Dubenco]

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[M.J. Franklin]

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[Anna Dubenco]

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[M.J. Franklin]

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[Gilbert Cruz]

And we're back. This is the book for your podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm chatting with Jumana Khatib and Anna Dubenco. And we're talking about the Safekeep by Yael van der Vowden. Before the break, we were talking about Isabel and Ava and the twist of the relationship. We were talking about the arc of the book overall. Now is the time where we talk about the big twist that happens. Spoiler Alert for everyone. Now is the time to pause if you don't want to hear the big reve. Pause over. Can someone tell us what happens?

[M.J. Franklin]

Yes. I literally, like, arm wrestled Anna for the opportunity to do this. So. So. And I have to say this because I had this sneaking feeling. I was like, there. Like, I never understood why Ava was with Isabel's brother Lewis. I never got that relationship. So I was like, she must have some ulterior motive here. And it turns out she does. She has a profound ulterior motive. And it's that the house that Isabel lives in, that's a place where she and her family fled to during the war when they were children. And, you know, their uncle found it for them, and it was obvious that somebody had been living there somewhat recently. And the family that was living there before Isabel's family arrived was Ava's family. This is her childhood home. She grew up there. She remembers her mother in the bedroom. The toys Isabel played with as a child were Ava's toys. And she feels rage at what's been taken from her. Ava is from a Jewish family, and a lot of Jews were forced to flee. And Isabel's uncle said they didn't pay the mortgage on the house, they didn't pay taxes, so it was fair for us to basically squat there, take it over. But that totally skims over the real issue, which is that these families were stripped of everything. They had to flee. They couldn't hold onto anything. And so Ava decides that she wants to go back to the house and take even a spoon, you know, like a plate. She wants to reclaim what her family owns, bit by bit.

[Gilbert Cruz]

What did you. With that out of the way, what did you make of that twist? Jumone? You predicted it. Did you predict it?

[Anna Dubenco]

I did not.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Wait, tell us more.

[Anna Dubenco]

I. I don't know how I missed it. I think because I was so. Like I said, I thought the book was about one thing. It totally hit me over the head. And then I thought, of course, that's why we are obsessively describing her bleach blonde hair and her brown frizzy hair growing back and the poorly hemmed dress. And did you all catch that? She. One night she decides to bake, and she knows to bake enough bread on a Friday night that will last them through Sunday. I mean, these clues are sprinkled throughout. It's just so satisfying to read back. But I had absolutely no idea. I'll also just say I was trying to think of other novels that really chronicled the immediate post War, Jewish experience. And I couldn't think of very many. Like, what is it like, okay, you're out of the camps, you go back to. What does that feel like? I just couldn't think of having read many narratives like that. A friend of mine was telling me that this was like the first novel she can really think of. And it was just such a nice. Like, it was filling in a nice gap in this sort of World War II literature.

[M.J. Franklin]

I totally missed the bread thing. The only reason that I thought Eva was Jewish was because there's this big thing where it's like, where is your family from? And she's like, I don't have anybody. And it's, oh, okay, okay. That's what this is.

[Gilbert Cruz]

There are also just like little clues too, of Ava's familiarity with the area. Just like, she just seems so at home. I agree with you. I was like, why is Ava with Lewis? So I really liked the idea of the twist. One of the things that I really loved in its execution is Ava's anger, which I feel like I have read a lot of Holocaust books that rightfully look at the sadness, the mourning, the scale of the atrocity. But there's a somber tone to it. And this one was just utterly furious in a way that I found very refreshing. Because that's how you would feel if this atrocity happened. You got back and your home is taken and there's just people who are living there that say you have no claim to what is yours. You'd be furious.

[M.J. Franklin]

And. And also it show. I mean, I loved the tension that revealed within Ava herself because when we meet her, she's implied to have this cheap dye job and she looks cheap and chintzy and not well bred or however Isabelle interprets her. And yet you can realize, like, how. How she's translating this legitimate wrath and sense of retribution into this scheme. It's unbelievable. And like, how hard she's working to like, play the part to ensnare Lewis to get to the house. It's incredible. It's incredible. And I loved that the perspective shifted into a diary as opposed to like an interior narration or something.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Same. And it's not like this big sweeping confession. She doesn't feel like she has to confess anything because it's her truth. So the tension is Ava is there to try to reclaim the house, but what is this relationship with Isabel? Was that all fake? What's going on? Isabelle feels this connection. She's let someone in. What's happening there? And so she has this conversation with Ava and Isabel is now the one apologizing. And she says, I didn't know. Not a thing. I didn't know a thing. And then Ava says, I know you didn't. Isn't that funny? No one ever knows anything in this country. No one knows where they live, who did what, who went where. Everything is a mystery. Knowledge is elusive. People disappear in the middle of the night, and then she gets cut off. But, like, her fury isn't just at Isabel for living in the house. It's her fury is this complicity of people. Like, yeah, people disappeared in the night and you didn't know, not because it was unknowable, but because you just didn't like to use a word, a phrase that the writer, Brandon Taylor, says all the time, use your human mind. Of course, you should know. And she's mad about us skimming over it.

[Anna Dubenco]

Yeah. I read an interview with the author, and I'm going to just paraphrase what she said was she said she wanted to. So often this kind of literature is told through the perspective of the victim, and very rarely. Not that there's maybe the perpetrator in certain cases, like a Nazi soldier, but she really wanted to focus in on this, like, other party to. In the war, which is. And not only look at victimhood and not give the victim that kind of. To your point, to give the victim a sort of anger, but not dwell there. I think it was really effective that we didn't switch perspectives to Ava, that it was all told through Isabel's point of view throughout, including reading the book. You are with Isabel, reading the journal along. And if you're like me and you didn't see it coming, totally shocked at what has been revealed. So I thought that was really effective too.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So we've talked about the twist. Are there any other things that you want to talk about in. With this book? Any other things that we haven't mentioned so far?

[M.J. Franklin]

You want to talk about the brothers, right, Anna?

[Anna Dubenco]

I want to talk about the brothers. But first, can we just quickly talk about the ending?

[M.J. Franklin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of ambiguity there in a. In a very satisfying way.

[Anna Dubenco]

I thought they get together and live happily ever after. What's going on?

[Gilbert Cruz]

That is my interpretation.

[Anna Dubenco]

I don't know.

[M.J. Franklin]

I mean, like that last scene where they're discussing. I'll keep for you. Anything, will you? I. I mean, it was amazing. You really do need your human mind to follow. I do believe that they ended up together. And like, I have to hope, certainly the book ends on a hopeful note. And like, leaves open the possibility for happiness.

[Gilbert Cruz]

We don't know, because the power now is with Ava. But one of the things that I love that this twist reveals and that's been building all along is not just about these relationships, but I think there's this real core thread of ideas of inheritance, willful or not, of borrowed time. So, like, the tension with this house is that the house actually belongs to the uncle. And when the uncle passes, it goes to Lewis, who is not living there. Isabel is living there, but she feels ownership of it.

[Anna Dubenco]

She's keeping it safe.

[Gilbert Cruz]

She's keeping it safe, but she can be kicked out at any time. So she feels ownership, but it's not hers. But it is hers, but it's not. And that's the same thing that Ava and Isabel are dealing with. And there's that core theme. And so when the power switches, I'm.

[Anna Dubenco]

Not sure Ava has the power. At the end, though. They have to live. There's no legal. Like, they're not getting married.

[M.J. Franklin]

They're. No, they're obviously not getting married. I think one thing we can say about Isabel is that she is a high minded, almost single focused person. And when her single focus becomes making Ava happy, I believe that she would do whatever she can.

[Anna Dubenco]

Chapter 10.

[Gilbert Cruz]

There we go.

[M.J. Franklin]

All right. I don't know, though. I. Maybe this is wishful thinking for me to want the power to swing in Ava's favor.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That's what I wanted as well.

[M.J. Franklin]

Yeah, maybe it's wishful thinking.

[Anna Dubenco]

I think it's wishful thinking.

[M.J. Franklin]

I'm flipping through the book, trying, desperately trying to find a glimmer of power, of hope. But see, I guess that's what I meant about the ambiguity.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah.

[M.J. Franklin]

Yeah.

[Gilbert Cruz]

My last thing that I want to say is I love the opening quite a lot. I feel like the opening reveals so much. And just symbolically, we have Isabelle in the garden. That's where she finds the broken ceramic piece. But it's interesting because Isabel is. It's the summer she's tending to this garden and nothing's blooming. Everything's dead. And so, like, the imagery already is flipped. It casts this shadow over the entire book and it sets this brooding tone that I thought was so smart. And she plays so well with imagery and symbolism. The opening cues you in on quite a lot.

[Anna Dubenco]

Yeah. And when the shard pierces a little hole, not enough to draw blood and the sting, the pain goes away. It's all right there on the first page. You don't need read another page.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah. Stunning. And I'm going to borrow a great British Bake off term, but they always say it's a little triumph. This book is a little triumph.

[M.J. Franklin]

I love that phrase. The lip of summer. Right. Or mouth like a violence. Do you remember that too? Like it's good writing. It's beautiful. It really luxuriates in language too.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Speaking of good writing, luxuriating in language, I wanted to open this conversation up and ask are there any books that you would recommend readers pick up after they read the Safekeep? I'm gonna follow your lead on why. Maybe this is another book that explores an under discussed side of the Holocaust. Maybe this is a book with a plot that builds and builds. Maybe this is a book that you're like, I want rainbows and sunshine. After such a heavy book, I defer to you. I just wanna know what book would you recommend readers pick up next? I'm gonna start with you, Anna.

[Anna Dubenco]

Sure. I've got two, if that's okay.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Of course.

[Anna Dubenco]

Okay. The first is the Torqued Man. Have you.

[M.J. Franklin]

No, I don't.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Nervous?

[Anna Dubenco]

Oh my God. So exciting.

[M.J. Franklin]

Blow my Mind, Anna.

[Anna Dubenco]

It's by Peter Mann. It also has two narrators, maybe three depending on how you're counting. Set in World War II. A series of recovered journal entries. Queer Love Affair. I'm not gonna say any more. Definitely more zany.

[M.J. Franklin]

Okay, I think I'm there.

[Anna Dubenco]

Okay.

[M.J. Franklin]

Okay.

[Anna Dubenco]

That's all I'll say. It's like a real romp. Okay. And then the second book I wanna recommend is the Little Stranger by Sarah Waters, which sort of picks up. It's a gothic thriller which sort of picks up on whose House Really? Is this really? Also set in post war. This time it's in post war England, but picks up on similar themes of who can claim ownership to a house. A love affair gone wrong. But really fun gothic novel that's just as much of a page turner.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Love both of those recommendations. Go check those out, readers. What about you, Jomana? What you got?

[M.J. Franklin]

So this is. I'm a. We're all a victim of time right now because the book that I'm reading is mice, 1961, which was a Pulitzer finalist this year. Now, not only is it set in the same year that the Safekeep is set, 1961, in the US as like in Miami right before the Bay of Pigs. It follows two women who are cloistered in their house with a dead mother, their two sisters. It's freaky, it's weird. I think if you like the sort of domestic drama set against a bigger political Reckoning in a way that's not heavy handed. This is good. The other thing to say about mice, 1961, is that it is truly one of the most insane books I've read. The dialogue is crazy, the characters are nuts. Like, this doesn't have the same tone as the safekeep, but it evoked similar feelings in me.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Interesting.

[M.J. Franklin]

I love this book. I love.

[Anna Dubenco]

I can tell I'm not gonna like it.

[M.J. Franklin]

No, I know.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You had me at freaky and weird. I want to know what that is.

[M.J. Franklin]

We need, honestly, maybe we need to have a whole episode where you and I just. Yeah. For six subscribers only. Because I don't understand why our taste is. That is so oppositional.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I actually don't either. And you're both people that I go to for book recommendations. This is fascinating to me. This is why we love a book club.

[M.J. Franklin]

Yeah. All right, mj.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right. So my recommendation is the novel the New Life by Tom Cru. This is a fictionalized account of two men who pushed the gay rights movement forward before there really even was a gay rights movement. It's set at the end of the 19th century, and we follow two people, John Addington and Henry Ellis. And these are real men who worked on a study of what was called, quote, unquote, sexual inverts. John is an invert himself who starts an affair with a lower class man. Henry is straight but married to a woman, Edith, who turns out to be a lesbian. And Henry himself has his own kinks and preferences. And the book is about these complicated relationships as they work on their study. Then around the same time, Oscar Wilde is writing, he is arrested and put on trial for, quote, gross indecency. That just puts in stark relief, like, the danger that John and Henry could face if they were to publish this book. So then the book morphs to not just telling the story of the relationships, but also it opens up this greater question of what are we willing to risk for social progress? The book is smart and considered and steamy, and it's one that, like, you dive into part of history that you haven't heard of before, and it's good. So that's the New Life by Tom Cru. I really recommend it. And that is all the time we have for today, unfortunately. Anna Jumana, thank you so much. This is really fun.

[Anna Dubenco]

I came back from the dead just to tape this podcast.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Thank you for coming here. We found peace in this studio, which is also a beautiful thing.

[M.J. Franklin]

We really did.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Also, thank you to everyone online who read with us again. We have an article headline Book Club Read the Safekeep by Al Vandervouten with the Book Review. Continue the conversation there. And as promised, here is our June book. In June, we are reading Mrs. Dalloway by one Virginia Woolf. The book turned 100 years old on May 14, so we figured let's chat about the book and its impact. Right now there is an article up on the New York Times website headlined book club read Mrs. Dalloway with the Book Review. You can share your thoughts there. And we'll be talking about the book on the Book Review podcast on June 27. We hope you'll join us. And in the meantime, happy reading. That was M.J. franklin, Anna Dubenko and Jumana Khatib in conversation about the Safekeep by Yael Van Der Wad. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. Thanks for listening.