Book Club: "Small Things Like These," by Claire Keegan

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Book Review Podcast - "Book Club: 'Small Things Like These,' by Claire Keegan"

Episode Details

• Title: Book Club: "Small Things Like These," by Claire Keegan
• Host: MJ Franklin, Editor at The New York Times Book Review
• Guests: Liz Egan, Jomana Khatib, Lauren Christensen
• Release Date: December 20, 2024

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1. Introduction

In the final book club episode of the year, host MJ Franklin introduces Claire Keegan's novella "Small Things Like These." Praised for its succinct yet profound narrative, the book delves into the moral dilemmas faced by its protagonist, Bill Furlong, during the Christmas season in rural Ireland. The panel comprises MJ Franklin alongside colleagues Liz Egan, Jomana Khatib, and Lauren Christensen, all seasoned editors at The New York Times Book Review.

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2. Book Synopsis

[04:51] Liz Egan: "Small Things Like These is about a man named Bill Furlong who is a father of five and a coal man in a small town in rural Ireland. The story unfolds in the months leading up to Christmas, and as the seasons change, so does his perspective. This transformation begins when he discovers a young girl locked in a coal shed at the convent next to his daughter's school, a place revealed to be one of the infamous Magdalene Laundries. This encounter forces Bill to reevaluate his past, present, and future."

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3. Themes and Moral Dilemmas

The discussion centers on the novella's exploration of morality, conscience, and community responsibility.

[06:16] Lauren Christensen: "Every sentence is doing so much work. There's an interplay between the horrors of a capitalist society and the inherent humanism that Bill possesses."

[07:58] Lauren Christensen: "It's a quietly powerful literary novel that moves you deeply, rewarding slow and multiple readings."

[08:43] Jomana Khatib: "It's a beautifully constructed book with restrained prose that distills complex emotions and societal issues without overt drama."

[13:55] Lauren Christensen: "There's a moment of real moral ambiguity when Bill discovers the truth about the convent. The nuns give him a Christmas check, which he grapples with accepting, symbolizing the complex power dynamics between the Church and individuals."

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4. Historical Context: Magdalene Laundries

The panel delves into the historical backdrop of the Magdalene Laundries and its portrayal in the novella.

[20:17] Jomana Khatib: "Having studied the Magdalene Laundries, the book showcases how such atrocities can persist in plain sight, with community complicity allowing them to continue unchecked."

[22:05] Liz Egan: "I have a personal connection as my aunt was in one of the laundries. The book handles this history gracefully, focusing on the moral questions of societal blindness to abuse."

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5. Literary Style and Prose

Claire Keegan's minimalist and poetic writing style receives accolades from the panel.

[25:14] Jomana Khatib: "The prose is so concise and poetic, reminiscent of Hemingway's rhythm and cadence, yet it carries a unique emotional depth."

[32:54] MJ Franklin: "The spareness of the prose allows for a rich, sculpted world where every word is deliberate, creating a powerful impact within just over 100 pages."

[37:07] MJ Franklin (Reading a Quote): "‘In October, there were yellow trees. Then the clocks went back. The hour and the long November wind came in and blew and stripped the trees bare.’ - This opening sets a tone of decay and impending hardship, mirrored by the characters' internal struggles."

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6. Character Analysis

Bill Furlong, the protagonist, is portrayed as a man caught between personal morality and societal expectations.

[28:19] Lauren Christensen: "Bill is almost the lone man among women, both at home with his wife and daughters and in the wider community. His decision to help the young girl symbolizes his moral courage amidst widespread complacency."

[30:32] Liz Egan: "Bill likely knew his father’s identity all along, subconsciously influenced by those who cared for him, adding layers to his character's internal conflicts."

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7. Reader Feedback and Reactions

The panel highlights thoughtful reader comments, reflecting the novella's profound impact.

[40:07] Jomana Khatib: "Readers like Janice from Germany appreciate the book as a 'go-to for my own conscience,' questioning the small things we ignore daily."

[40:50] Liz Egan: "Regina from Pennsylvania wishes everyone could possess Bill's 'quiet courage,' underscoring the protagonist's inspirational role."

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8. Holiday Literature Recommendations

Transitioning to recommendations, the panel shares their favorite holiday-themed literature, drawing parallels to "Small Things Like These."

[42:34] Jomana Khatib: "Loved and Missed by Susie Boyt is recommended for its emotional depth and poignant Christmas scenes."

[46:04] Lauren Christensen: "Ann Patchett's The Patron Saint of Liars is lauded for its portrayal of unwed young women in Catholic-run homes, echoing the themes of charity and moral complexity found in Keegan's work."

[47:11] Lauren Christensen: "Garth Greenwell's short story 'The Frog King' from his collection Cleanness is praised for its beautiful, poetic sentences and heartfelt depiction of love during the Christmas season."

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9. Conclusion and Future Plans

MJ Franklin wraps up the episode by thanking panelists and listeners, announcing the next book club selection:

[52:14] MJ Franklin: "We're excited to discuss Our Evenings by Alan Hollinghurst in January 2025. Thank you to everyone who participated and listened."

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Key Takeaways

• "Small Things Like These" masterfully intertwines personal morality with broader societal issues against the backdrop of Christmas.
• Claire Keegan's restrained yet powerful prose invites deep emotional engagement and multiple readings.
• The novella sheds light on the dark history of the Magdalene Laundries, prompting reflection on contemporary moral responsibilities.
• Reader feedback highlights the book's ability to resonate on both personal and societal levels, encouraging introspection and discourse.
• The panel's holiday literature recommendations expand on themes of moral courage, familial bonds, and the human condition.

Notable Quotes:

• Lauren Christensen [06:16]: "Every sentence is doing so much work. There's an interplay between the horrors of a capitalist society and the inherent humanism that Bill possesses."

• Liz Egan [37:07]: "I love that Claire Keegan doesn't tell you because it doesn't really matter."

• Jomana Khatib [40:07]: "What small things do I willfully ignore every day just to get on with life."

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For further engagement, listeners are encouraged to visit the New York Times Book Review website to join the ongoing conversations and read additional reviews and discussions related to "Small Things Like These."

Transcript

[Gilbert Cruz]

How could market forces impact investment strategies? Tune into the Angle from T. Rowe Price for sharp insights on today's key trends. From the blue economy and AI to the impacts of the US Election. This award winning podcast brings you an information edge with thought provoking questions to changing market themes and gives curious investors dynamic perspectives from their global investing team and special guests. Better questions, better insights. Listen and subscribe to the Angle on Spotify or Apple podcasts and learn more@t roweprice.com TheAnglePodcast.

I'm Gilbert Cruz, Editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review Podcast. The holidays are nigh and this is our last new episode of the year. We're gonna take a very brief break for Christmas and for New Year's and we'll see you on the other side. Before that, however, we have our final book club episode of the year. I'm going to let our host, MJ Franklin, tell you all about it.

[MJ Franklin]

Hello and welcome to another book club episode of the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review, and for this month's Book Review Book Club, we're talking about small things like Claire Keegan's 2021 novella about one Irishman's crisis of conscience during the Christmas season. It's a slim book, just over 100 pretty small pages with large margins, but it's a thought provoking one and one that really seems to have secured a spot in the public imagination. It was shortlisted for the Booker Prize and earlier this year it was made into a movie starring Cillian Murphy. So we thought a book that is seasonal, a book that is adapted, and a book that is giving getting accolades is the perfect book for a book club discussion. And joining me in discussing the novel are a handful of my wonderful colleagues. First, we have a voice you may not have heard on the show in a while, Liz Egan. Liz was last on the Book club in February for our Demon Copperhead conversation. Welcome back, Liz.

[Liz Egan]

Hi mj. Thanks for having me.

[MJ Franklin]

Thank you. And Liz, in the intervening months, your job has changed. You were previously a review editor and now you're a features writer, correct?

[Liz Egan]

I am indeed.

[MJ Franklin]

I wanted to bring this up because I want listeners to know Liz has written a ton of incredible features about some really remarkable books over the year. So if you're looking for some literary delights, please go check out Liz's author page. It's fantastic.

[Liz Egan]

Thank you, mj.

[MJ Franklin]

Next with us is Jomana Khatib, a staff Editor here at the Book Review. Jumona needs no introduction. She's a frequent book clubber. She's frequently on the podcast. You were here last talking about the best books of 2024.

[Jomana Khatib]

Yes. Feels like just yesterday.

[MJ Franklin]

Just yesterday. That was so much fun. Thank you for coming back.

[Jomana Khatib]

We had a good time.

[MJ Franklin]

Jomona, one additional thing I wanted to flag about you is that you recently reviewed the History of the Big House by Sharif Magdelani, correct?

[Jomana Khatib]

Yeah, it was. I'm always aware that I don't want to just log the Homeland too much, but he is like probably one of the best Lebanese novelists we have working now. So that was a real treat and Lauren assigned it to me. Oh my God, it's so beautiful. Look at the mafia here in full fledged form.

[Liz Egan]

And MJ and I sit next to each other. This is a very close group. And Lauren sits behind me. I'm the hub.

[Lauren Christensen]

Okay.

[Liz Egan]

I'm just kidding.

[Lauren Christensen]

Okay.

[Jomana Khatib]

Features writer.

[Liz Egan]

Why not?

[MJ Franklin]

And speaking of Lauren, last but not least, we have Lauren Christensen, another staff editor here at the Book Review. Lauren, you were last here for our conversation about the Hypocrite by Joe Hamya. Welcome back.

[Lauren Christensen]

Thank you so much.

[MJ Franklin]

Since I'm shouting everyone's praises. Lauren, you also wrote a really cool piece which was you rounded up the best audiobooks of 2024.

[Jomana Khatib]

I did, yes.

[MJ Franklin]

I feel like that's especially relevant to this audience of book clubbers. This is a list of the best audio literary content that you could listen to.

[Lauren Christensen]

And the audiobook for this book that we are book clubbing is also excellent. So quick plug.

[MJ Franklin]

So this is all to say one, thank you all for being here and listeners. We have an expert panel to talk about this book, small things like these. And before we dive into the book, I just want to share some admin notes up top. 1. At the end of the episode, we will reveal our January 2025 book club book. So stay with us if you want to find out what we're reading next. And second, there will be spoilers in this conversation. It's a book club. You want to dive in. So if you want to avoid spoilers, go read this book. It's really short so you can do it in no time and then come back and listen. And if you've already read it or don't care about spoilers, let's dive in. And to set the table, I just want to ask, can someone give us a brief elevator pitch synopsis of small things like these? What is this book about?

[Liz Egan]

I would be happy to tell you guys Small Things like these is about a man named Bill Furlong who is a father of five and a coal man in a small town in rural Ireland. And the story, the book unfolds in the months leading up to Christmas. And as the seasons change, so does his perspective on the world around him. This is helped along by finding a young girl locked in a coal shed at the convent next door to his daughter's school. The convent turns out to be one of the infamous mother and baby homes, also known as a Magdalene Laundry. And he cannot shake the view of this young girl and her desperation and. And her missing of her 14 month old son. And what he learns about her life changes the way he sees both his past and his present. And it helps him to reevaluate his future.

[MJ Franklin]

So this is a Christmas novella, but it's really deep. And the tension is this crisis of morality, of conscience, of community. I'm gonna throw it out to the table. What did you think of this book? Like it? Love it, Hate it. Felt complicated about it. I just want to hear your top level thoughts.

[Lauren Christensen]

Yeah, I first read it, I believe, in a galley form when it hadn't come out yet, just with an eye to assign it for a review. And I had not heard of Claire Keegan before. I guess this was 2021 or sometime in the Pandemic. I remember and I'm reading it in a PDF and I have no idea what to expect. And I just remember this intense trance. It's the kind of book that you can read really quickly, but it actually rewards really slow reading, possibly multiple readings. I think you just, you go back and it's not like Easter eggs of information. It's just that every sentence, and you mentioned it's only about 100 pages, every sentence is doing so much work. It feels like there's so many sentences and images contained in each very economical phrase. And I found that just so rewarding on a written level. I think it is a Christmas story. I think what's really striking to me is the kind of interplay in this book between the kind of grind and the horrors of a capitalist structure of society. The interplay between that and a real kind of inherent humanism that Bill Furlong has.

[MJ Franklin]

Can I ask a follow up question, which is you mentioned feeling this trance and that feels especially notable to me because as editors we're reading in such atypical ways. We're reading PDFs in advance, we have no context, frequently going in and we have to read fast. And so for something to really hook you feels Notable. Did you know when you were first reading it in that weird experience that this book would become this force that it's become since it published? Could you feel that? Could you predict that?

[Lauren Christensen]

That's such a hard question. No. I mean, not. I mean, I think it has every marking, this book, of just a kind of quietly powerful literary novel. The kind of book that just lives on a shelf somewhere for the right person to go find it and be totally moved by it. I think the fact that it has earned so much critical and popular acclaim is exciting to us as book people that, like, we're happy for everything that's on the bestseller list, but I think especially when it's something we are so personally passionate about, it's so rewarding. And, yeah, I'm so excited for her.

[MJ Franklin]

For what seems like a hidden gem to get its flowers. Feels there's nothing better.

[Lauren Christensen]

Yeah.

[MJ Franklin]

What about everyone else? How did you feel about this book?

[Jomana Khatib]

I managed to sort of avoid Claire Keegan mania until this book club. And I was. I'm glad she's there. She's scratching the itch for the right reader. That's a wonderful thing. But then I read this and I was like, God, this is a beautifully constructed book. This is going to sound like a bit of an oxymoron because it's not a book that obviously has a lot of ornament. It's an unbelievably restrained book. And it actually has the feeling of being something that's been distilled and distilled to the point that, like, every single even punctuation mark is there for a reason. And I can tell how hard she worked on this. And that also makes me respect it so, so much. I read this basically in one sitting, and it was completely beautiful. And I loved the scope of it. I loved how clear the moral of it was, too. I actually don't know the last time that I. I feel like I'm. I've come on here in praise of ambiguity, actually, when we were, like, doing our hypocrite book club, and we're like, isn't it wonderful to find a grace face? And now I'm here and I'm like, isn't it wonderful to find a man that does the right thing? So ask me next. I don't know. Maybe Christmas has me in a mood. I don't know.

[Liz Egan]

I do not like ambiguity, as everybody sitting at this table knows. I prefer clarity. I don't like coyness in a book. I don't like. I'm too cool to show my emotions in a book. And what I loved about this book. Jomana. This might be one of the rare overlaps of our Venn diagrams. First of all, I think it's worth saying for anybody who has never seen a physical copy of small things like these, it's a beautiful, almost pocket sized book. It's not your average trim size and it has a beautiful cover. And whoever decided to publish this book in this format deserves a special award of their own because it's so beautiful. I encountered it at the cash register at my local bookstore the year it came out. I think I was looking for a one last Christmas present, maybe even a stocking stuffer for somebody and I just threw it into my purchase and was shocked by both how sad it is, but also how much beauty it has in it and also alongside the sorrow, joy. It has a lot of dramatic. It has a lot of dramatic tension but not a lot of drama. It's very soft spoken and restrained.

[Jomana Khatib]

I think that's a perfect way to put it. And I actually was thinking about that said the tension between drama and tension. It's not a dramatic book, but it is tense, right? And even just thinking about the title, small things like these, like that line comes from a conversation Bill and Eileen are having in bed, right where there's. She's downloading him on the latest news in town and I think somebody has a cancer diagno and it's just life grinds on and it's oh yeah, small things like. But then it turns out to have such a bigger resonance when you think about the bigger universe that he lives in.

[MJ Franklin]

Quick introduction. Eileen is Bill's wife. I think we've mentioned her, but we haven't introduced her.

[Lauren Christensen]

I would actually argue that it is a dramatic book. There's a whole revelation about who this man's father was. He has unknown on his birth certificate in place where his father's name should be. And he solves that mystery partway through the book. And of course the whole. The center of this book, the kind of him stumbling upon this place of real suffering at the hands of the Catholic Church, that what could be a more dramatic discovery. But there's you're. There's this restraint in the delivery of it, in the addressing it, not wanting to look those things head on. And that is embedded in the whole point of the book and of Christmas, right? Of just this is a time to be happy and to think about and to give and receive Christmas gifts and to think about how lucky we are to have our families. And then and that's wonderful. But then there's just another. The flip side of that is don't look at the people who are freezing outside.

[Jomana Khatib]

I also think that she, Claire Keegan, has such an amazing handle on how to imbue moments with meaning. It never felt heavy handed. So it's probably worth getting into Bill's backstory, right, because he was born out of wedlock to a young mother, and his mother was working as a maid for wealthy widow in town with a big estate. Her name was Mrs. Wilson. And actually that estate and that upbringing gave Bill a bit of a shelter or a bit of a buffer from the shame, because I think that his mother's parents basically dropped her when they figured out she was pregnant. But Mrs. Wilson was like, you can stay here, obviously, and really allowed there to be a haven for this boy. And there's a moment where he won a spelling bee because she gave him a dictionary. Mrs. Wilson gave him a dictionary. In that moment, he comes home and tells her the news and he says, she rubbed his hair. And he could feel the pride. And for a moment, he felt like a child who mattered. My God.

[MJ Franklin]

Devastated.

[Lauren Christensen]

Can I also bring in perhaps, because I just watched say Nothing, the TV adaptation. So the Catholic Protestant backstory is still in my mind. So this book takes place in 85. So midway through the troubles, a little bit after the. The scope of say Nothing. But anyway, it's just fresh in my mind and my eyes were just really zeroing in on the fact that Mrs. Wilson, who does take in Bill Furlong's mother, Bill furlong, is Catholic, Mrs. Wilson is Protestant. And she. It is very connected to the fact that she has the money to take him in and to care for him and to raise him as her own. And there's. I'm also gonna push back a little bit on the idea that there. Cause there is a moment of real moral ambiguity in this. And I think that's in Eileen. She wants her husband to spend money on the girls and to spend money on her and to keep quiet about what's going on at the laundries. But then there's this moment where a really subtle conflict between the two, between the married couple. And she says, you know how a woman finds herself in that situation, hinting at his mother, and he steps back. And then at a certain point, Eileen makes the point. We don't have the luxury to be able to. We Catholic women don't have the luxury to be able to take in, to extend kindness. That actually selflessness is a privilege of people. Who have the ability to give things away. So that did. Didn't not redeem her. But there was a depth to Eileen's role in this book beyond just pushing against Bill Furlong's, like, naive kind of kindness.

[Jomana Khatib]

Sure.

[MJ Franklin]

For me, I also think there was a moral ambiguity here because everyone is just trying to survive. And I initially wanted to say there are no heroes or villains here, but that's not true. I think Bill is clearly a hero, but there are no villains here because people, again, are just trying to get by in whatever way they can. And you do see the level of need of Eileen and their family. And Bill is going throughout the town and he's like a modern flaneur in a kind of way. He's walking around, he's doing coal deliveries and just seeing people live around town and he's seeing their level of need too. And so, yes, there are technically are villains, there is horrible abuse happening. So maybe I take that back as well. But there's a sense that Eileen, for instance, even though she, as. I'm just repeating what you said, Lauren, even though she is more hesitant to help, it's not because she just has evil in her heart, but she's thinking of her growth. How are we gonna get by? How are we gonna. We need the assistant that this. The assistance that this church has to offer.

[Liz Egan]

I was also really struck by Mrs. Keough, who was the woman who works in the local pub. After Bill discovers what's actually happening in the convent that really looms over the town and is really beautiful, and people look at it as if it's a Christmas card view. He's talking to Mrs. Keough, who says, I understand you had a run in at the convent. And he allows that he has. And she says, just remember, that building is only separated by one wall from St Margaret's which is the school that his daughters go to. And at least once, I think twice in the book, Claire Keegan makes it clear that St. Margaret's is the only school for girls in town that is really training girls to be smart and capable. And because Bill has a slightly precari toehold in the place in society where he is, and he's really built that world himself, he is very worried. You can sense his worry about losing a spot for his girls at this school.

[Jomana Khatib]

But at the same time, he also takes the opportunity to gently push the envelope with her because she says, basically, she's saying this is all one church that's in charge of all this stuff and they have their fingers in every pie. So basically saying they've got a lot of power. And he pushes back and he goes, surely they only have as much power as we give them. Right. And so they end in a bit of a stalemate.

[Lauren Christensen]

But he.

[Jomana Khatib]

Part of. I think his ability to understand what's going on is because he's. He's on the margins, right? And because he's traveling around and he sees everything, and that's what allows him to get at that stuff.

[Lauren Christensen]

I would also argue that it's because of his role. This all starts with this incredibly bitterly cold winter where people cannot get enough coal fast enough. And so he is. His service is in high demand. So there's this actually really interesting juxtaposition of these, like, essential services that the Church provides and that Bill Furlong is providing and how in this moment, they do come head to head. And those power dynamics are so interesting. And also the time that he goes to the convent and actually discovers the girl he ends up saving, her name is Sarah. That in that horrible scene where the nuns are pretending that she's not being held captive, and everyone knows it's this sham and it's. It's so excruciating to witness. In that moment, the nuns hand him a check, like a Christmas gift, and he takes it and he brings it home and he's. I don't even want. Why am I taking this check? And. But the money exchanges hands, and it's not even for the coal that he's provided. It's just a Christmas gift.

[MJ Franklin]

But then also, Eileen is expecting it.

[Lauren Christensen]

She's.

[MJ Franklin]

Did they do this this year?

[Lauren Christensen]

And you get the sense of the turkey.

[MJ Franklin]

Exactly.

[Jomana Khatib]

I can take this to the butcher. And also just, like, where it's, oh, this is going to pay the butcher bill low. And then it's funny that you talk about making the comparison between the coal and the Church. I didn't grow up religious. But the coal man is not just, like, the guy bringing coal. It's also warmth, illumination, comfort. Like, all this stuff that you actually need to get through a winter or, like, a cold snap. And, like, theoretically, I think the Church should provide that same stuff. Comfort, spiritual illumination, warmth in very trying times. And so that contrast is huge.

[MJ Franklin]

Can I do a slight pivot and just ask how much did you know about the Magdalene laundries before reading this book? Cause I will confess, I knew nothing about it.

[Lauren Christensen]

Nothing.

[MJ Franklin]

And I don't think they even say Magdalene laundries in the book itself.

[Lauren Christensen]

I land up on review at the end of the book, or it's in the beginning. Yeah. That's all.

[MJ Franklin]

So how much should you all know?

[Jomana Khatib]

I knew. So I had. I'm going to shout out one of my favorite professors, Kim McMullen, who could never pronounce my name, but she was amazing on Irish literature. And we spent a lot of time on the laundries. And just, like, the ramifications of what that means for the Irish canon, where it's. We're setting these girls to work to, like, clean out everybody else's stains, so they're irredeemable. So that is huge. But, Liz, you're the expert.

[Liz Egan]

Yeah, I know a lot about it. I have an aunt who was in one of them, but she's no longer with us. She was my grandmother's sister, and we found out in 2003, 2002 or 2003, after. Long after my grandmother died, she had emigrated to this country. And our family always wondered why she never wanted to go back to Ireland, in addition to not having a ton of money. But she was really never interested in where. She never talked much about where she came from. And after she died, this man contacted our family and said that he was the son of. He was my dad's first cousin. And it turned out my grandmother had gone back to Ireland one time, which was to pay the bounty to get her sister out of this home. And she had been with her son until he was two and a half years old. That was very customary. You would care for your kid till they were a toddler and then they would be adopted.

[MJ Franklin]

Wow.

[Liz Egan]

So he was actually returned to the nuns. He wasn't even raised by the family.

[Lauren Christensen]

That a lot of the children didn't survive.

[Liz Egan]

Right, right. Actually, I believe the one that my aunt was in was the one where I think 740 dead babies were found in the yard. Yeah. Yeah. So I've read everything there is.

[MJ Franklin]

So for you, Jomana and Liz, since you did know about the laundries, how did this book render that history? Did it illuminate anything? I'm just curious about anyone who has knowledge of this, how they approach this book.

[Jomana Khatib]

You can hear, like, Lauren and I guess, God, like hundreds of babies found at one facility. So with the distance of time, you have the benefit of being able to be horrified in real time because we know so much more now than when it was going on. But I think the value of a book like this is that you see how easily this stuff can go on in plain sight and is a shared complicity with everybody in the town to keep it going and how it Actually, just like you see how it happened from the distance of time, you're like, this is awful. This is heartbreaking. This is an epidemic. But then you read this and you're like, oh, this is how this happens.

[MJ Franklin]

For decades to call myself out earlier, I was like, everyone's just trying to survive. And while that's true, that also, that's the dilemma of this book. How do you survive while also being on the right side of history and being morally like good and helping others in need. That's the dilemma that Bill is facing. That's what he's thinking through, and that's what I think this book is fantastic at illuminating. What about you, Liz? How did you feel about how this book approached that history?

[Liz Egan]

I thought it handled it so gracefully. I mean, the first time the Magdalene Laundries landed on my radar was in, I think, 2002. There was a movie that came out called the Magdalene Laundries. And it was. It really just hit you over the head with what had happened and all the abuse that went on there. And at the end, there were like five minutes of names rolling up the screen. And I love this book because it gets at what I think is a really essential moral question. Whether it's with any atrocity that happens anywhere, that so often everybody knows and chooses to look the other way. And I think that makes for some of the best fiction, the idea of what we know and we choose not to see. And that's, I think, what Claire Keegan is getting at for me.

[MJ Franklin]

It just keeps coming back to what I keep thinking about is how expansive that consideration is, how expansive these characters feel and the scene setting in this book feels for a book that, again, is so spare. I love this book because I feel like there's a rich world that Claire Keegan has considered. I think of it like sculpture almost, or I guess like chiseling. It's like the great Roman stat. Like there's a giant block and that is life and history and culture and all of this stuff. And Claire Keegan has just immaculately chiseled away without necessarily removing anything that shouldn't go. But she's just perfected and fine tuned and created this brief, spare, powerful work of art about out of something that is so humongous.

[Jomana Khatib]

This actually reminds me the poet Ilya Kaminsky shared this beautiful nugget from a census survey from, like the 20s. And the guy, his occupation, he listed it as carver of stone lions. And then it was like, describe what you do. And he goes, I chip away at all stone, which is not lions. But it's like when you. Okay, amazing. Like, I would love to find him, but also that's what this book is. There is not. There's nothing in here that's not stone lions.

[MJ Franklin]

I think also that's a. Yeah, you pivot.

[Jomana Khatib]

Yeah, you're a real pro. You try and pivot off that.

[MJ Franklin]

I just want to say, I think Ilya Kaminsky is an incredible poet and pairs so nicely with this book, too. I'm googling furiously a poem of his. We lived happily during the war, which was. He has a quote in it. In the street of money, in the city of money, in the country of money, our great country of money, we forgive us, lived happily during the war. That's the dilemma here. There's an atrocity happening and people are trying to live happily, but there's an indictment there to that as well. I don't know. This is all to say, love Ilya Kaminsky and I'm glad you brought him into this conversation. I love this. This conversation is so fun and robust and we're going to dig in more. But first, we should take a quick break.

[Gilbert Cruz]

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[MJ Franklin]

And we're back. I'm MJ Franklin, an editor here at the New York Times Book Review. I'm here with Lauren Christensen, Liz Egan, and Zhumanika Teeb, and we are talking about Small Things like these by Claire Keegan. This is all a heavy topic that we've been getting into, but now I just want to do I feel like I've been throwing Various questions out. I want to do what I like to call free swim. What stands out to you about this book? What do you want to talk about this book?

[Lauren Christensen]

I think there's something about Bill Furlong being almost the only man in this world of. In these various worlds of women. Like, he. In his home, he has a wife and five daughters. He goes to the convent. And he feels. Even when the nuns are pushing back against him, he feels emboldened by the sense that he is, after all, a man among women. There's just this. Yes, he is absolutely the hero of this book. I think there's also a little bit of a moment that the reader gets of, like, how did everybody know and you didn't know? And he did know, but he didn't want to. And he half admits that, right? He half admits that the ordinary part of his brain just does not want to think about this stuff happening. But then there's just this sort of, eileen, what do you know about what's going on in the laundries? And it's, bill, what do you know? There's a little bit of that. And it's just. It's interesting to me, this positioning of him as this savior on Christmas. It's written by a female author. Like, he's coming in, and he's literally, like, sweeping her into his coat, this little girl, and whisking her off into what? That's another thing. We don't know what's gonna happen. And it ends on this timidly hopeful note of, I know trouble lays ahead. I know that basically, I know the Catholics are gonna come for me, will manage. But there are those questions that the reader has of what now and what about all the other girls and what. I don't know. That was a lot of questions to throw out.

[Liz Egan]

But I wondered what. First of all, I would not want to tangle with Eileen. And I have a feeling that even though Eileen had Bastille Magnolia vibe to her, that she did have a good heart and would open her soul to another girl at her table. And I did think that Bill and Eileen together would be a formidable wall against whoever comes to their door. I was also curious about, because we are talking spoilers, whether or not Bill knew on some level who his father was the whole time. And I was curious about whether you guys thought, I'm just gonna.

[Lauren Christensen]

I missed it the first time I read it.

[Liz Egan]

You did?

[MJ Franklin]

I am looking at your eyes.

[Lauren Christensen]

I was like, oh, weird. He looks like him.

[MJ Franklin]

I think I missed it, too.

[Liz Egan]

It's Ned.

[Jomana Khatib]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[MJ Franklin]

Okay.

[Liz Egan]

And who is the. Another person who works in the home of the woman who raised him, Mrs. Wilson's home. And he talks about how Ned polished his shoes and Ned looked out for him and always led him to believe that his father must have been one of the Wilsons because they were fanc.

[Lauren Christensen]

Smart or one of their guests better stop.

[MJ Franklin]

Interesting.

[Liz Egan]

In the end, when he goes to visit Ned, who he's heard is sick, the person who answers the door says, oh, Ned isn't here, but, oh, how are you related to him? Because you look just like him. And it clicks. Of course he looks like him. And I think he knew the whole time. And I love that Claire Keegan doesn't tell you because it doesn't really matter.

[Jomana Khatib]

Yeah, I do think there is some element of. I think we have such a finely tuned emotional and cerebral connection that, like, in some ways I've experienced this in my own life. No matter how many times it's shown to me, I won't be able to grasp something until I am emotionally capable of grasping it. And I think that there's a lot of. Because I agree with you. Bill must have known on some level he's busy, but he's busy. He's delivering calls from this.

[Lauren Christensen]

He's a gorgeous.

[Jomana Khatib]

And he must have, I'm sure, the insults and the slurs that he heard growing up, he must have known on some level, just couldn't fully reckon with it. And I think that's another aspect of what makes this a very wise book.

[MJ Franklin]

I also think that the idea of you can only process something, accept something when you're emotionally ready. I think that's where the Christmas season comes into all of us.

[Lauren Christensen]

You can only emotionally accept things on Christmas.

[MJ Franklin]

It's the Christmas miracle itself. No, it's that because of Christmas, he's already in this very reflective state of mind. And so it feels like the gates in this particular moment are open and then this tragedy is. And now he's just reflecting. And I think one of the things I was thinking about is like, what I call this a Christmas book. I anxiously slacked, Liz, when I. After last month's book club where I was like, it's a Christmas. A deep Christmas story. And I was like, is it okay to call it as a Christmas story? Because it's so dark. And that duality, someone mentioned it earlier, the duality of how interior and dark and devastating this book is with the theoretical cheer of the Christmas season is really doing a lot of work in this book.

[Jomana Khatib]

Yeah. But Liz, can I ask you, as the reigning Catholic of the table. Catholic.

[Lauren Christensen]

All right.

[Jomana Khatib]

Catholic emerita. Like, what is the relationship between, like, spirituality and moral responsibility and Christmas?

[Liz Egan]

How long is this book club?

[Jomana Khatib]

I guess I'm just asking. Do have this idea that the Catholics are like. Like these sort of. They take it seriously. It's not all spread to multiple masses on Christmas. I'm wondering if there is a more moralistic dimension to what Christmas time means for, like, such a deeply Catholic society.

[Liz Egan]

I do think that there's a huge piece of it that is about doing unto others as you would have done unto you. But what I really take away from all of it, and I still stand by this, is the idea that it's the season of looking into lit windows, as Bill Furlong did on his rounds and on his. On those short days, and being aware of the warmth you have waiting for you at home and your position, everyone's position as an outsider of sorts, even if it might look like you're an insider. We all have times where we're the person standing outside in the cold and the dark, and if we're really lucky, we have times of being the person inside the brightly lit window.

[Lauren Christensen]

He describes himself at one point in the book as someone who always stands in doorways.

[Jomana Khatib]

Yes, I loved that sentence. That was an amazing.

[Lauren Christensen]

So there's a literalness to that. But, yeah, I mean, he does have a home. But anyway, your description of Christmas just gave me jealousy.

[Liz Egan]

Really. I'm so glad. Come over. Come into my warm window.

[Jomana Khatib]

Stand over here and wave.

[Lauren Christensen]

Absolutely.

[Liz Egan]

You can walk inside. You don't have to wait in the doorway.

[MJ Franklin]

This is why I love a book club. We can start off like, let's talk about a book, and then end with Liz personally explain to us about Christmas.

[Jomana Khatib]

I mean, we're gonna get some letters.

[Liz Egan]

If that's. That is not the universal definition of Christmas, I promise.

[MJ Franklin]

I keep talking about the style and the spareness of the prose, and that's one of the things that impressed me the most about the book, is just how, again, she was able to render all of this in such concise, poetic, beautiful sentences. The thing that's been haunting me that I keep thinking about is how much of Hemingway I hear in these sentences, and specifically the opening. And can I read a quote? And I also have a Hemingway book with me, A Farewell to Arms. The opening of small things like these is in October. There were yellow trees. Then the clocks went back. The hour and the long November wind came in and blew and stripped the trees bare. So already I'm interested Because it's not just like setting you into Christmas. There's a sense of the decay, of fall, things are dying, the sun is setting. This. It's becoming more grim. I'm going to skip over some lines and then the next graph is the people, for the most part, unhappily endured. The weather. Shopkeepers and tradesmen, men and women in the post office and the dole queue, the mart, the coffee shop and supermarket, the bingo hall, the pubs and the chipper, all commented in their own ways on the cold and what rain had fallen, asking what was in it and could there be something in it? For who could believe that there again was another raw cold day. There's a poetry to that. And then in A Farewell to Arms. The opening is in the late summer of that year. We lived in a house in a village that looked across the river and the plain to the mountains. In the bit of the river there were pebbles and boulders, dry and white in the sun. And the water was clear and swiftly moving and blue in the channels. Troops went by the house and down the road and the dust they raised powdered the leaves of the trees. There's a rhythm and a cadence to it. And maybe I'm thinking about it because there's this great Joan Didion essay in the New Yorker about specifically Hemingway style and how he loves sentences. But I read this and immediately thought of Hemingway and then I was thinking about, I mentioned it before, like the flaneur. And then there's this history and the remarkable things that Claire Keegan is able to cram so much into. And I cannot stress this, a 100 page novella.

[Liz Egan]

And I noticed as I was reading this time, I think I've read this book every year since it came out.

[MJ Franklin]

Wow.

[Liz Egan]

But it only takes an hour. But what I noticed this time is that she stops short of the corny thing. At one point she mentions a shooting star. How many writers of this caliber can get away with a shooting star in a book and not have it be a little hokey? But she stops. She just walks to the end of the gangplank and stops. And it not only does she leave you wanting more, but you don't get that sort of, ooh, it's like this parable.

[Lauren Christensen]

It's like this kind of timeless parable that almost did this hit you guys a little bit when the girls are writing out their letters to Santa for what they want. One girl wants Levi's 501s because she's seen that those just came out. And I was like, wait, What? Oh, yeah. We're not in like, biblical times or something. I noticed that too. Just universal or biblical or something about.

[Liz Egan]

This story and yet so modern.

[Lauren Christensen]

Right.

[Jomana Khatib]

Liz, like your point about sort of just like her restraint, or I guess we can call it gangplank, if you're.

[Lauren Christensen]

Going to call it that.

[Jomana Khatib]

But, like, it actually has the same effect of forcing the reader to make her own, to do her own work, to meet Claire. Totally. And that actually works in its own ways. Like, now you're complicit in the story too, right? Like, you're not ignoring.

[Lauren Christensen]

Filling the gaps in this book of which there are many.

[MJ Franklin]

Yeah. I think that's why readers really connect with this because. And I think this is so tough to do. It's almost like writing a great play or a great character in a play. You want that character to feel vivid, but also you want there to be space for an actor to bring their own self and their own human humanity in it. It's a really tough trick of writing, and I think she does that. Claire Keegan does that here in this book, the reader is able to bring so much to imagine this character, this world, and their way to connect with it themselves. Yet we're being told this very specific story. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to share some observations from readers because, as always, we invited readers to read along with us for this book club and share their thoughts with us. There's an article page up on the New York Times website, headline Book Club read Small Things like these by Claire Kee with the Book Review. There are a lot of thoughtful conversations happening in the comments there, so I just wanted to highlight a few. And I know everyone here also has a few that they want to mention. I just wanted to start off with Janice from Germany who wrote, I have read this book many times as it works as a go to my own conscience. What small things do I willfully ignore every day just to get on with life. It's a beautiful and poignantly written examination of conscious for all of us. So I just love that comment. I wanted to shout that out. And then one more that I wanted to mention is Edward from New York, who writes. The efficiency of Keegan's gorgeous prose in this book is riveting. So few words, each simply the perfect one. Sublime writing.

[Jomana Khatib]

I really appreciated this comment from Patty from Colorado, who must have been an English professor in this or a past life. She writes, I'm struck by the sense of place and season and how the narrator's inner state is mirrored by the stillness of the trees and the holy hush of winter. Juxtaposed with his frozen indecision is the passage about the river, which knows where it must go. As he guides the girl through town, he is forced to speak to neighbors and their reaction to the girl's dirty feet in the snow reflect the many shades of humanity's reaction to injustice. Just I never. Obviously the landscape is so important to this book, but I wasn't even making those connections, but just shows you how this book works on so many levels, truly.

[Liz Egan]

Yeah, I have one short one and one longer one. The first is from Regina, a reader from Pennsylvania, and I'll just read the last line of her comment, which was, would that we could all possess the quiet courage of Bill Furlong. And I totally agree with that. I also forgot to mention there is a Furlong in the dead too, in the James Joyce story, in case you're wondering. And the second one I wanted to read is A little bit longer, and it's from somebody named Dottie who lives in California. I got lucky in that my senior community library had this book. I have been waiting for the movie and stumbled on the book. I read it quickly in one night under my blankets. Truly so well written. It felt as if I was in Bill's shirt pocket for every moment. I could feel the cold, feel the soap and water when Bill washed his hands, feel what Bill was thinking, all the while knowing how hard and unfair life can be.

[MJ Franklin]

These are great comments and again, I wanna say a huge thank you to everyone for reading along with us. These are just a few. Go check out that article page. Join the conversation. On that note, we have a really fun second segment to talk about some other book recommendations around the season. For this recommendation segment, I wanted to ask what are some book recommendations of your favorite holiday literature? I'm keeping that very vague and open for a reason. This could be a book specifically about the holidays, or this can be a book about something very different. But there is a memorable holiday scene. The holiday can be also anything. It can be Christmas, it can be Hanukkah, it can be Thanksgiving, it can be New Year. I just want to thank holiday literature. What are your favorites? Take it away.

[Jomana Khatib]

Okay. This came to me almost in a dream. So I will talk about loved and missed by Susie Boyt anytime I can. Okay. Thank you.

[Liz Egan]

The best. And that's such a good comparison.

[Lauren Christensen]

Such a good comp. Oh my God.

[Liz Egan]

I can't believe I didn't think of that.

[Jomana Khatib]

Do you guys remember the Christmas scene? Okay, okay.

[MJ Franklin]

I don't know this book.

[Liz Egan]

So, Jay, you need to bring yourself up to speed. It's probably the best book I read in 2024.

[Jomana Khatib]

I had this moment. I think I read this in 2022, like around the time that New York Review Books brought it out. And I was like. And I felt like I was having an out of body experience because I was like, I'm sorry, does nobody else know that this is a good book? And so I felt like I was about to start my own religion. Right. And it's of Susie Boyd. So it follows this woman named Ruth who is raising her granddaughter because her. Ruth's daughter Eleanor is struggling with addiction. That's basically the whole plot. But it's incredible for the emotional insight. And then in a way that, like, I feel as moved and feel the compassion for the characters in a similar way that you do in Claire Keegan's writing. Also, there is an absolutely devastating Christmas scene where Ruth goes to meet her daughter and her daughter's boyfriend. I don't even know if it's the baby's father. I can't remember. It's left unanswered. But Ruth goes and she spreads out a blanket and she has all the dishes. And they're sitting outside and they're freezing. And it's because they have a very tenuous relationship, Ruth and Eleanor.

[Liz Egan]

Her.

[Jomana Khatib]

Eleanor doesn't really want to be clean at that point. And so this is the best they can do for a Christmas dinner together is sitting outside freezing, on a bench with the food that Ruth has cooked and brought to a park in London. And then they just disappear afterward.

[MJ Franklin]

It is gutting listeners. I wish you could be in the studio because Joumon is so passionately talking about this and Lauren and Liz are just furiously nodding along. I'm gonna go read this book now.

[Liz Egan]

I'm actually so eager to say something that I almost took a big bite out of my microphone.

[Jomana Khatib]

Christmas dinner, maybe.

[Liz Egan]

Don't put that in. It's definitely not clean. But I didn't even. I love that comparison. Because Eleanor's addiction plays the same role in Loved and Missed as the convent? No, because it's the main thing. But it's not actually. I don't know that it's ever even named or. It's so subtle. It's happening offstage, but it's the main event. And that's what's happening in this town that Bill Furlong lives in, that this horrific. I imagine it at the top of a hill. I don't even know if it is at the Top of a hill, but. And it's going on offstage, but it's actually determining everything that happens in the story.

[Jomana Khatib]

I think, you know, Bill and Ruth are both very. No nonsense in how they handle the situations that they're running. And Ruth, I think, is an amazing sort of steward, not only of her granddaughter, but even Eleanor's addiction. She's very compassionate and understanding and firm when she. It's a marvel. But I think they're also both motivated by the same feeling which Phil thinks to himself towards the end of small things like these, which is, what's the point of being alive if we don't help each other?

[MJ Franklin]

What else? Have you got other recommendations?

[Liz Egan]

Now, I'm worried that mine is a little bit obvious, but I can't help myself. And it is the Dead, the last story in Dubliners by James Joyce, in case you haven't heard of it. And it's takes place at a holiday party hosted by the two aunts of the main character, whose name is Gabriel. And I actually looked in the book just to make sure that there really was a holiday scene and a meal, which it is actually the whole book. It like small things like these. It's festive, but there's this undercurrent of bittersweetness and tragedy which makes it great. I'm going to see the annual performance of the Dead that the Irish Rep has here in the city where you basically are part of the play. You sit and eat. Yeah, I'm going with my mom. I'm really excited.

[MJ Franklin]

We have the best time. All right. What about you, Lauren?

[Lauren Christensen]

Okay, so I did my homework a little wrong, so sorry in advance. I have some recommendations. I have two Christmas happens in one of them. But I would not call it a Christmas again.

[MJ Franklin]

This was very open, very first.

[Lauren Christensen]

So we're gonna start with. I think this book reminded me so much, and actually, for the reason you're talking about, Liz, of the main crime, the drama happening offstage, it made me think so much of women talking. But that book is centered around the conversations that these women are having in a Mennonite town where they are discovering. They are awakening to the realization that they have been repeatedly, night after night, drugged and raped by the men in their town. So their husbands, brothers, fathers, like, their family members. They're members of their town. And that's all happened offstage. The entire book is the women deciding collectively, arguing, agree, whatever, deciding what to do. Do they stay and fight? Do they leave? What happens if they leave? Which children will they bring? How old are the Oldest boys, they will accept bringing. It's devastating. And it reminded me very much of this book for those obvious reasons. And then the second one is a book that is older. I just read it for the first time. It's Ann Patchett's first novel called the Patron Saint of Liars, which takes place in a home for these unwed young pregnant women in a home set up for them by these Catholic nuns. And the whole. In Kentucky. So the whole book is the main character is this young woman who has come from California all the way to Kentucky. She's driven all the way and she has her baby there. And these women are pretty much forced to give up their children. But this woman may or may not decide to do that. I really recommend that novel, too, and Christmas happens in it. But I wouldn't call it Christmas.

[MJ Franklin]

It counts. It counts.

[Liz Egan]

It sounds very merry.

[MJ Franklin]

So I guess I have two recommendations, one I just thought of based off of that recommendation. And maybe I shouldn't be recommending because I haven't read it because it comes out next year. But I just want to flag that Grady Hendrix's new novel, Witchcraft for Wayward Girls is about a similar setup. Who knows how it is? I haven't read it yet, but I just wanted to flag if you want a horror novel approach to this type of story that is coming out in 2025. The book, though, that I really wanted to recommend, I guess it's not a book, it's a short story. It is the Frog King by Garth Greenwell. It is a short story that's in his collection Cleanness. And I have been yelling about this story for years. It first ran in the New Yorker in 2018, and it is so good. It's set over Christmas and New Year, and it's about a couple. The couple is. And our protagonist is an American teacher teaching in Bulgaria. And over the school break, he and his partner are going on a trip to Italy. And that's truly about it. It's a short story about happiness and love. And we often think, like, we need high drama and tension in a short story or in literature. But this one is the stakes and the tension. Just like, how do you cling on to love? How do you appreciate it? How do you show it? How do you express it? How do you let it wash over you? And it is just so beautiful and moving. And I have a quote because the writer Colm Tobin reviewed the collection in 2020 for their book review. And in his review, he specifically called out the Frog King, saying, quote, the best of These stories. The Frog King rivals John Updike's the happiest. I've been set in the same Christmas season as a great American story about happiness and it's a story about happiness, but it's Garth Greenw. It's beautiful, poetic sentences. There's an erotic charge to this story as well. There are like really haunting, special moments in it. It's a Christmas story. It's a story about love. It's a story that makes me feel very emotional. It's one of my all time favorite short stories and that's what I would recommend to you.

[Lauren Christensen]

That quote also just made me think that there's definitely uptake in Claire Keegan. There's points of similarity.

[Liz Egan]

Anyway, the frog reminded me. Have any of you guys read who Will Run the Frog Hospital by Laurie Moore? Oh, I'd love to get on it. It's so good. I read it 30 years ago. I don't even remember what it's about. I think it's about old friends, little girls growing up together. I'm a little sketchy on the details, but it's truly one of my favorites.

[MJ Franklin]

Add it to the list. Reading List Grill.

[Liz Egan]

I'm just riffing off the frog theme.

[MJ Franklin]

Well, I think that's all the time we have for today, Lauren. Liz Drumana thank you. This was so much fun.

[Lauren Christensen]

So good.

[Liz Egan]

Thank you. This was really fun.

[MJ Franklin]

And thank you to everybody who read along with us. Again, there is an article headlined Book Club Read Small Things like these by Clark Keegan with the Review. Continue the conversation there. Also, while I'm saying thank you, I just want to say this is our first full year of doing the book club and I just want to say a thank you to truly everybody. Thank you to Gilbert for letting us commandeer the podcast once a month for these. And I want to say a huge thank you to Maddie and Pedro, our producers who listen to us ramble every single month. Thank you for every person who's been on the show.

[Lauren Christensen]

Thank you mj for doing it tireless work on this.

[MJ Franklin]

Thank you, thank you. I want to say thank you to any person who's written in and left a comment and read along with us. And thank you to anyone listening. I'm excited to continue this in 2025. And speaking of, I teased at the beginning of the episode, we're going to reveal our January 2025 book and that book is Our Evenings by Allen Hollinghurst. We'll be chatting about the book on the podcast on January 31st. We hope you'll read along with us. And if you do, there's an article up on the New York Times website, Headline Book Club. Read Our Evenings by Alan Hollinghurst with the Book Review. Very descriptive. Leave a chat with us and with other readers. I'm excited to talk to you about that book next year. And until next time, happy reading and happy New Year.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That was MJ Franklin, Joumana Khatib, Elizabeth Egan and Lauren Christensen talking about Cleric Egan's small Things like these. I've had a wonderful year in reading. I hope you have as well. I'm Gilbert Cruz. Thank you very much for continuing to listen to us here at the Book Review podcast.