The Book Review Podcast: Brandon Taylor on 'Minor Black Figures' — Episode Summary
Podcast: The Book Review
Host: MJ Franklin, The New York Times Book Review
Guest: Brandon Taylor
Episode Date: October 10, 2025
Book Discussed: Minor Black Figures
Overview
In this episode, MJ Franklin talks with acclaimed author Brandon Taylor about his latest novel, Minor Black Figures. The novel follows Wyeth, a Black gay painter in New York City, as he grapples with artistic purpose, love, faith, and selfhood. The conversation dives into the novel’s genesis, its themes of art and vocation, the intricacies of the art world, the pressures of being a Black artist, and Brandon Taylor’s observations on contemporary literature.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Introducing 'Minor Black Figures' and Its Protagonist
- Synopsis:
The novel centers on Wyeth, a Black gay painter struggling with an artistic block in New York. After an unsatisfying art show, he meets Keating, a former seminarian, sparking a summer of wandering, philosophical conversation, and eventual romance. - Quote (Brandon Taylor, 02:33):
“Minor Black Figures is about Wyeth, who is a Black gay male painter living in New York City...he's in the midst of an artist block. He doesn't know how to paint the moment, whatever that is. He's in search of the real, whatever that means.”
2. Naming Characters — Literary Allusions
- Wyeth is named after Maria Wyeth in Joan Didion’s Play It As It Lays, not the painter N.C. Wyeth.
- Keating comes from Anneliese Keating (How to Get Away with Murder) and is a name Brandon has wanted to use for years.
- Quote (Taylor, 03:37):
“I've always really loved that name. And I have this habit of naming my characters after other characters in other people's books.”
3. Genesis of the Novel
- The book has a clear origin: while under contract to write a different, multi-character novel (Group Shown) that he rewrote (and discarded) multiple times, Taylor realized, after encouragement from his editor, that he didn’t want to continue. He started ‘Minor Black Figures’ during a teaching stint in Paris and wrote the first 100 pages in a three-week hotel stay.
- Quote (Taylor, 06:27):
“It revealed to me that like, the reason I wasn't able to keep going with the book was because I just didn't want to write it anymore...I threw it out...by the time I'd left [the hotel], I'd written the first hundred pages of the book.”
4. Depicting the Art World & Research
- Taylor discusses his fascination with art world parties and the social ecosystem surrounding artists, critics, curators, and journalists. His research included biographies of Helen Frankenthaler and Lucian Freud, among others.
- He sought to capture both the public glamour and the private vulnerabilities of artists.
- Quote (Taylor, 08:01):
“I did this deep dive into art biographies and read about so many parties, so many juicy parties.”
5. Form, Scope, and Social Worlds
- The novel opens with a broad social and political sweep, then zooms in on Wyeth—a deliberate attempt to create narrative scale and to reflect the collision of personal and sociopolitical backdrops for art-making.
- Quote (Taylor, 10:47):
“It's not just, like, his personal stuff. It's the...unique collision of his personal experiences with the social and historical climate that determines what it is to make art at a particular time.”
6. Character Study: Wyeth
- Wyeth is biracial but identifies and is seen as Black. He feels artistically isolated, negotiating between his own aesthetics and the political readings others impose on his art.
- Taylor describes Wyeth’s journey as one of artistic and personal maturation.
- Quote (Taylor, 14:05):
“It's about two people with a vocation trying to figure out what it means to have a vocation in a world that seems so evacuated of meaning and structure.”
7. Writing Deep Existential Questions in Fiction
- Taylor credits reading Lukács for shifting how he explores existential themes: focus on emblematic moments distilled into narrative scenes, letting social and psychological crises manifest through action and relationships.
- Quote (Taylor, 15:47):
“For this book, it was...he's in crisis, whatever that means...What are the moments and situations that most keenly express that crisis? And then leaning into full on dramatizing those moments.”
8. Keating, Faith, and Romance
- Keating is a Jesuit in training, also having a crisis of faith. Their relationship—intellectual, physical, and spiritual—is written as an optimistic, romantic comedy a la Nora Ephron.
- Quote (Taylor, 19:17):
“The romantic comedy is the ultimate optimistic art form because it posits that two people who come to know each other won’t be turned off or repulsed and will, in fact, want greater intimacy.”
9. Balancing Cerebral and Physical Elements
- Taylor stresses the need for vitality, humor, and evolving tone in the narrative, ensuring both serious meditation and sensual humanity.
- Quote (Taylor, 20:30):
“I guess that's one of the things I wanted to write into the book, was just this sense of falling for someone because of their ideas, because of what they have to say, but at the same time, it is physical.”
10. On Allowing the Novel to Meander and Cohere
- The novel strives for “totality,” combining esoteric discussions, moments of levity, and subplots (including Wyeth’s mother’s mommy blogger ambitions) into a cohesive, authentic whole.
- Quote (Taylor, 21:27):
“In order to tell the truth with the book, it had to have joking around...these deep dives on Sargent...melancholy over...mommy blogger fame...but all of my delight in it...doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t cohere into the life.”
11. Faith in the Reader and the Form
- Taylor defends novels that challenge the reader, embrace digressions, and resist being trimmed for cinematic efficiency—while ensuring those digressions always serve character development.
- Quote (Taylor, 26:16):
“Everyone has a thought about, like, well, the contemporary novel can’t do anymore. Okay, maybe. But when you read Dickens...don't you want to try that stuff?”
12. Parallel Between Painting and Writing; On Black Art
- Making Wyeth a painter (not a writer) allowed Taylor to richly describe the world and draw parallels with the process of creating Black art under societal (often racialized) scrutiny.
- Quote (Taylor, 28:49):
“There’s something about painting which feels very close to prose literature, which is that it can never give an exact replica of life.”
13. Debating Art and Race through Dialogue
- The novel addresses how Black artists’ work is mediated by outside perceptions, and Taylor uses character arguments to present a spectrum of opinions, consciously resisting universalizing a single view.
- Quote (Taylor, 33:25):
“It also felt important...to offer a variety of takes on the idea of what it means to be a black artist. And how is black art evaluated?...the way that I feel about it isn’t the way that this black artist feels or that black artist feels.”
14. Brandon Taylor on Writing, Criticism, and Literary Trends
- Taylor’s critical work and teaching deeply inform his fiction. He notes the influence of reading Zola for a London Review of Books essay.
- He identifies contemporary trends: “loser fiction” (isolated, friendless protagonists), “wrong protagonist novels” (a dull protag searching for a fascinating missing character), the resurgence of campus novels, and neo-gothic suburban fiction.
- Quote (Taylor, 35:55):
“Loser fiction, where it’s just you guys notice that all your characters are losers. They don’t have friends, they don’t have families...loser fiction.”
15. What’s Next for Brandon Taylor?
- Now writing without a contract for the first time in years, Taylor is considering a tennis novel or a long-gestating Southern Gothic.
- Quote (Taylor, 39:33):
“I feel like I fought against writing a tennis novel for a long time...I’m gonna give in to the muse.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On Character Inspiration:
“Even in my first book, Wallis is named...after a character in Ann Patchett’s Commonwealth. So I just have this terrible sickness of loving female characters.” (04:26) - On Romantic Comedy:
“This is your Nora Ephron moment. Find the bliss. Find the joy in it.” (19:17) - On the Limits of Black Art:
“Any black artist making art today, no matter the medium or the form, is confronted with a set of difficulties...our work is measured against some sort of external perception of what real black life is.” (29:15) - On Literary Criticism and Trends:
“Friends are coming back. Friends are back 2025.” (36:17–36:19) - On What the Novel Would Whisper to Readers:
“That love is possible and you can preserve your own subjectivity.” (40:22) - Book Recommendation:
“There’s this wonderful, strange book called Muscle man by Jordan Castro. I think it’s the gayest book of 2025.” (41:21)
Timestamps for Major Segments
- Book Introduction and Plot — 02:33
- Character Naming Insights — 03:37
- Origin Story/Paris Writing Retreat — 06:27–07:14
- Art World Research — 08:01
- Narrative Scope, Social World — 10:47
- Wyeth as Artist and Thoughtful Protagonist — 12:25–14:05
- Writing Existential Fiction — 15:27
- Wyeth & Keating: Love and Philosophy — 17:41–19:17
- Physical/Cerebral Balance in Romance — 20:10
- Novel as ‘Totality’ — 21:27
- Faith in the Novel/Reader — 25:58–27:47
- Black Art and Perception — 30:31
- Debate as a Device — 31:39–33:25
- Writing, Criticism, Trends — 34:33–36:41
- Contemporary Novel Taxonomy — 36:50–38:30
- On Future Projects — 38:51–40:07
- Closing Thoughts & Recommendations — 40:11–41:55
Conclusion
Through a lively, insightful conversation, Brandon Taylor unpacks the craft and concerns of Minor Black Figures—a novel that is both cerebral and deeply human, philosophical but sensuous, and marked by its author’s wit, range, and curiosity about art, identity, and the possibilities of the novel form. The episode concludes with Taylor’s thoughts on the novel’s message—about the preservation of self and the optimism of love—and a hearty recommendation for readers seeking fresh, interesting fiction.