Sally Rooney's "Intermezzo": Our Book Club Conversation

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Book Review - "Sally Rooney's 'Intermezzo': Our Book Club Conversation"

Episode: Sally Rooney's "Intermezzo": Our Book Club Conversation
Release Date: November 1, 2024
Host: Gilbert Cruz
Panelists: MJ Franklin, Joumana Khatib, Sadie Stein, Dave Kim
Podcast: The Book Review by The New York Times

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Introduction

In this episode of The Book Review podcast, host Gilbert Cruz welcomes listeners to a monthly Book Club conversation centered around Sally Rooney's highly anticipated novel, "Intermezzo." The discussion is led by MJ Franklin, joined by regular panelists Joumana Khatib, Sadie Stein, and newcomer Dave Kim. The panel delves into the book's themes, character development, and overall reception, incorporating insights from reader comments to enrich the conversation.

Book Synopsis

Joumana Khatib provides a succinct overview of Intermezzo:
“This novel follows two brothers, Peter and Ivan Kubeck, who are grappling with the recent death of their father. Peter, a 30-something lawyer in Dublin, navigates a complex love triangle involving Naomi, a university student, and Sylvia, his first great love. Ivan, a 22-year-old chess prodigy, embarks on a relationship with Margaret, a 36-year-old woman. The narrative explores their struggles with grief, identity, and the sustainability of their romantic relationships.” [04:33]

General Reactions

The panel shares mixed feelings about Intermezzo, highlighting both admiration and criticism.

• Sadie Stein expresses initial disappointment, particularly regarding character development:
  “I started out feeling almost personally angry because I’ve been a big fan of her work, but as I immersed myself, I found a certain warmth and generosity in the storytelling that I didn’t expect.” [06:43]

• Dave Kim offers a more positive take, appreciating the emotional depth despite initial reservations:
  “I didn’t think I would like it based on the description, but I found myself emotionally carried and intellectually stimulated.” [08:20]

• Joumana Khatib shares a complex view, struggling with certain aspects while acknowledging the novel’s strengths:
  “All the things I liked about her previous works felt absent here. The age gap and melodrama were challenging for me, and I had an emotional nerve block to feeling connected to some characters.” [09:30]

Character Analysis

The discussion delves into character portrayals and dynamics:

• Peter and Sylvia:
  MJ Franklin praises the depth of their relationship but notes Sadie Stein feels Sylvia comes across as "too angelic" and underdeveloped.
  Sadie: “Sylvia felt flat to me. Her character didn’t allow enough exploration beyond her disability and emotional distance.” [15:32]

• Ivan and Margaret:
  Joumana Khatib appreciates the initial romantic encounters but criticizes the lack of depth in Margaret’s character:
  “The first sexual encounter was beautifully handled, but Margaret doesn’t receive a proper point of view, making her feel flimsy.” [11:43]

• Naomi:
  The relationship dynamics involving Naomi are seen as shallow compared to previous Rooney novels.
  MJ Franklin highlights the contrast with earlier works, noting a lack of spark:
  “The relationships aren’t as innately enmeshed as in her previous books. The characters are pretty isolated.” [21:21]

Themes and Motifs

The panel explores broader themes woven into the narrative:

• Grief and Loss:
  The brothers’ journey through mourning and identity is a central focus.
  Joumana Khatib remarks on how loss shapes each character’s identity:
  “Everybody has an identity forged by loss, responding to something being taken from them.” [27:02]

• Isolation and Stasis:
  The novel probes into the characters' isolation and their struggles to move forward.
  MJ Franklin observes:
  “The book feels like it’s playing with isolation and stasis, adding new colors to Rooney’s projects.” [27:02]

• Modern Relationships:
  Grace from New York comments on the nuanced portrayal of love and care:
  “Caring for someone, loving someone, and being good for someone are three different things. Intermezzo explores how they can hurt each other and themselves.” [34:28]

Style and Form

The narrative style in Intermezzo sparks considerable debate among the panelists:

• MJ Franklin critiques the consistency of Peter’s narration, likening it to a "Joycean stream of consciousness" but feeling it lacks fluidity:
  “Peter’s style never changes to reflect his mental state, which I wanted to feel more fluid.” [31:45]

• Dave Kim finds merit in the lyrical quality despite the clipped sentences:
  “Even in Peter's bits, there was quite a bit of poetry to that. It felt very lyrical.” [30:36]

• Sadie Stein appreciates Rooney’s experimental approach:
  “I give a lot of points for experimenting with the style, departing from the typical millennial epistolary forms.” [28:55]

Reader Comments

The panel incorporates feedback from listeners, showcasing a range of perspectives:

• Positive Feedback:
  “Danielle from Philadelphia adored Intermezzo, finding the simultaneous reading and listening experience special.” [11:43]

• Critical Feedback:
  “Karen from Columbus found the book confusing and couldn’t get past five pages, while Sally from Arizona was disappointed, citing a lack of realistic and intelligent plot development.” [11:43]

Spin-Off: Book Recommendations

Inspired by Rooney's label as the "first great millennial novelist," the panel recommends other books capturing millennial voices and experiences:

• Joumana Khatib suggests "Private Citizens" by Tony Tuladimuti, a satire of Silicon Valley.
• MJ Franklin mentions "The Idiot" by Elif Batuman and "Luster" by Raven Leilani as examples of millennial-themed narratives.
• Sadie Stein and Dave Kim discuss the challenges of defining a "millennial novel" and its relation to technological influences and generational experiences.
  Sadie: “The term has to do with technology and the specific moments when phones became part of everyday life.” [36:05]

Conclusion and Next Steps

As the discussion wraps up, MJ Franklin highlights how Intermezzo diverges from Rooney's previous works by focusing on different protagonists and exploring themes of isolation and loss. The panel acknowledges both the strengths and shortcomings of the novel, offering a nuanced perspective that reflects the complexity of modern literature.

Listeners are invited to join the ongoing conversation through the NYT’s online book club hub and are teased with the next month's book selection, "100 Years of Solitude" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, encouraging continued engagement and participation.

Notable Quote: “Intermezzo is no different, but we also had some detractors. ... I think complicated is the general vibe in our discussion.” — MJ Franklin [13:13]

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This comprehensive discussion offers valuable insights into Sally Rooney's Intermezzo, balancing critical analysis with personal reflections, making it a useful summary for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

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[Gilbert Cruz]

Hello, I'm Gilbert Cruz, Editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review Podcast. This week we have our monthly Book Club conversation hosted by MJ Franklin, and this time around it's one of the biggest books of the year, certainly one of the biggest books of the fall, and Intermezzo by Sally Rooney. Talking about it with MJ are our regular podcast panelists, Joumana Khatib, as well as two editors here at the Book Review, Sadie Stein and Dave Kim. In addition to discussing the book, they brought in several of the comments that readers and some of you listeners left on our site. If you haven't done so yet, I urge you to head on over to our Book club [e-mail] and weigh in yourself. Let's turn to our Book Club discussion.

[MJ Franklin]

Hello and welcome to another book club episode of the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review, and for this month's Book Club, we're talking about Intermezzo by Sally Rooney. We chose Intermezzo as our October book club book for the simple reason that it is easy, easily one of the buzziest books of the fall. Anticipation for this latest release was high because across the board, Sally Rooney's books have been commercial juggernauts and they've been met with critical acclaim. So readers were just really excited to see what she was up to next. And that's definitely been the case with Intermezzo. Even before this came out. There was so much buzz and conversation. Then the book finally did publish and it was an instant bestseller. So this, this is all to say, a lot of people are reading Intermezzo and we wanted to be there with you to talk about it. And speaking of talking about it, I have three wonderful colleagues joining me in the studio to discuss this novel. First, we have a returning book clubber, Jumana Khatib. Jumana needs no intro. She's here very often. She was on the podcast just a few weeks ago to talk about the National Book Award finalists. She joined us last month for last month's Book Club of the Hypocrite. Welcome back, Shumana.

[Joumana Khatib]

Thank you. Thank you, mj.

[MJ Franklin]

Also with us is Sadie Stein, another great editor and colleague here at the Book Review. Welcome, Sadie.

[Sadie Stein]

I am glad to be back.

[MJ Franklin]

You may remember Sadie from our podcast discussion this summer for the talented Mr. Ripley. And last but not least, we have a new voice on the podcast, Dave Kim. Hi, Dave.

[Dave Kim]

Hi. Good to be here.

[MJ Franklin]

Dave is a longtime editor at the Book Review, first time caller on the podcast. And, Dave, I have to say, I think it's a bit of a crime that you're not on the podcast more often. There are few joys greater in this life than hearing you talk about a book.

[Dave Kim]

Oh, thank you. I'm excited to be here and I hope I don't disappoint.

[MJ Franklin]

I don't think you are. You've changed my thoughts on books I didn't like. You've challenged me on books that I loved. You've introduced me to books I didn't even know about. I feel like Sadie and Joumana were, like, nodding here.

[Sadie Stein]

No, no pressure. But your taste is infallible.

[MJ Franklin]

True.

[Joumana Khatib]

Impeccable.

[Dave Kim]

No pressure whatsoever.

[Joumana Khatib]

Actually, Dave, you want to just carry this?

[Dave Kim]

Let me just talk for an hour.

[MJ Franklin]

Don't worry, because you're here for a conversation with friends. I'm sorry, I had to make. No, I had to, Dave.

[Joumana Khatib]

It's not too late to get out of here.

[Dave Kim]

Beautiful exit door.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Where are you?

[MJ Franklin]

Before we talk about Intermezzo, I just have a few admin notes. First, at the end of the episode, we will reveal our November book selection, so listeners stay with us for the whole episode. And then second, there will be spoilers in this conversation. We can't have a robust conversation about the whole book if we can't talk about. And we're not going to be holding back. If you want to avoid spoilers, pause this, go read the book, and then come back to us. And if you don't care about spoilers, or if you've already read the book, then stay with us. Without further ado, let's dive into Intermezzo to get this conversation started. Can someone give us a synopsis?

[Joumana Khatib]

Yes. Happy to, mj. So this novel follows two brothers, the Kubecks. We have Peter, who is in his early to mid-30s. He's a lawyer in Dublin. And then we have Ivan, who's 22. He's a chess prodigy, competitive player, and casting about. And these brothers are grieving their father who's just died at the beginning of the novel. And they have had a charged relationship, we come to learn. And so as these brothers are grieving and trying to figure out who they are, they're embarking on romantic relationships. Ivan meets a woman named Margaret when he's at a chess tournament outside where he lives. She is 36 to his 22, so that's a challenge from the jump. And then Peter is seeing a younger woman named Naomi, who's a university student. And at the same time, we come to learn that he's still at least emotionally involved with his first great love, who's a lecturer named Sylvia, who was his high school or adolescent girlfriend.

[MJ Franklin]

Yes. And so then the hook of the book for a teaser is, what's going to happen to these people? Can these relationships stand? What is Peter going to do about this love triangle? Will Peter and Ivan reconnect and reform their brotherhood? So I just want to go around Robin and just ask everyone, how did you feel about this book? Big Picture. Love it. Hate it. Feel complicated about it? Tell me your broad thoughts about Intermezzo. I'm gonna start with you, Sadie.

[Sadie Stein]

Very complicated. And I would say my feelings changed in the process of reading and changed particularly when I started really immersing myself in the book to a point where I started out being disappointed and feeling almost personally angry because I've historically been a big fan of her work and last night, in fact, applied what I think of as the MJ Test. When I was rereading this at a bar and the bartender asked if he should read it, and I said, you know what? Yes, interesting. I said, don't start with it.

[MJ Franklin]

Why is this the empty test?

[Sadie Stein]

You talk a lot about how often you recommend books to people, which is.

[MJ Franklin]

I do be recommending books to random strangers.

[Sadie Stein]

And I thought, how often do I like a book enough to do that? I can't do it without a lot of caveats. But of course, I said to start with normal people, but. And I said, having read those, you may find things about this one disappointing, but even not amazing. Sally Rooney is better than much of what is written, but ultimately I quite like it. I think there is a certain warmth and generosity to the storytelling which I did not expect, in which I think is nice to read at this very moment.

[MJ Franklin]

What about you, Dave? What did you think of this book?

[Dave Kim]

I liked it a lot. I felt that it was very immersive. I just fell into it. I didn't think I would like it. I honestly would not have picked this up on My own. Had I read the description and had this not been a major book that I should be reading, I was surprised. I really enjoyed it. I felt just emotionally carried. I felt intellectually stimulated. I felt just. It was a very positive experience and yet I think I can talk speak to its issues and some of the tidiness and a few points that I might pick a bone with. But I honestly, despite all that, I.

[MJ Franklin]

Really, I want to dig in a little bit more. And first. Yeah, I'm gonna send a barrage of follow up questions your way. One, what about the description Put you off. You said based on the description you didn't think you would. I'm curious why. And then you talked about like the intellectual and emotional resonances of it. What were you picking up on that kind of won you over?

[Dave Kim]

I think in general I'm a little bit allergic to sentimentality and anything that resembles a kind of romantic love triangle. I find those narratives to be low stakes and I don't find myself moved by them at all. Despite my tastes. I think I let those sappy, sentimental aspects of it to just to really sink in. And I felt myself very much moved by the characters and the situation. I really felt I understood their dilemmas and their humanity and their vulnerabilities, their flaws. And they felt very real to me.

[MJ Franklin]

Beautiful. Dave. Our secret feeler in the room.

[Dave Kim]

I know, it's really uncharacteristic and on.

[Joumana Khatib]

A hot mic too.

[Dave Kim]

I know because I'm totally dead inside and I don't know what happened.

[MJ Franklin]

What about you, Romano? What did you think about this book?

[Joumana Khatib]

I like Sadie, had complicated feelings. I really like Sally Rooney a lot and have imprinted on her like a duckling because she and I, I think are the same age. And so I read all of her books in real time when they came out. This one really threw me, I have to tell you because all the things that I liked about her previous ones I felt were absent here. I could never really buy into the stakes. A big part of it is the age g kind of melodrama where I was like, oh My God, she's 36 and he's 22. And I was. Call me when you have people going through separate Saturn returns. Do you know what I mean? Then we'll talk. But I can't. I had a hard time with that. And even I think she's somebody who's really capable of sketching out a character's real interiority. She's proven that from the beginning. I actually think in a way my favorite books track with the order in which they were published. Conversations is definitely my favorite of hers and I just didn't feel like that interiority was there enough. I felt it with Ivan. I did not feel it with Peter. Of course, Peter's zonked on Xanax for half of this, so fine, we'll allow that he's being triangulated by like an OnlyFans model and chemicals. But I had a real block. It was like an emotional nerve block to feeling.

[MJ Franklin]

Tell me more. What was it about? What was going on? What was that block? What wasn't quite landing?

[Joumana Khatib]

I am afraid I'm gonna sound like the Queen of Sheba here. A couple things right I did find Peter's style of narration or interiority to be very disjointed and I could never really collapse into it the way Dave says, I just had a hard time with the stakes. That being said, I think that the opening, the first encounter, the first sexual encounter between Ivan and Margaret was beautifully handled. That has everything that you want out of a Sally Rooney Gambit I guess I shouldn't use the G word in a chess book, but we're gonna do it anyway.

[MJ Franklin]

The Rooney Gambit.

[Joumana Khatib]

The Rooney Gambit.

[MJ Franklin]

I'm sure what I think, but first I'm gonna share some reader comments and just some reader general thoughts because this month was our second month of doing our expanded book club reader Hub online and we're having a really fun and thoughtful conversation there. You can find that [e-mail] SallyRooneyBookClub- between every word in Sally Rooney Book Club and I just wanted to share a few thoughts from readers. Danielle from Philadelphia says, I adored Intermezzo. I read the print book while simultaneously listening to the audio narration. It made for a slower, even more special reading experience. Anusha from India said, as a 25 something girl grappling with the same issues as most of Rooney's characters, what always strikes me is her ability to crystallize all of my generations innermost thoughts surrounding faith, love, guilt and empathy on paper with such ease. Intermezzo is no different, but we also had some detractors. Karen from Columbus said, I'll try again, but I couldn't get through five pages of this confusing. And Sally from Arizona said, I was generally disappointed in this book but wasn't sure I could articulate my points of disappointment. I was helped a great deal, however, when other readers brought up the Queen's Gambit and Howards End. I found both of those books much more realistic, exciting, anticipatory and most important for me, much more interesting and intelligent plot development. Some good, some bad. I think complicated is the general vibe in our discussion, but be sure to go check that out.

[Sadie Stein]

I mean, as it should be. Honestly, it's weird in this case because it's so divisive and the reviews have often been glowing, but with a hint of defensiveness.

[MJ Franklin]

I think I can explain that defensiveness because this was my thought going in was, I am not just a Sally Rooney fan. I'm a Sally Rooney defender because I think she sat out with so much but the title that she has as the first great millennial novelist. I think a lot of times when people approach her books, they're not just talking about the work itself, but they're talking about their anxieties of a generation at large. What does this mean for a kind of climate of literature and a phase of literature? So I think there's a lot of big picture answering that Sally Rooney is doing that others don't have to. And I think when talking about her books themselves, I generally really like them. I think they're smart. There's a charm and a complication to them that feels so rich. That said, Intermezzo, for me, this book did not work. And I have a few reasons. Some of, like the stakes with the age gap. Ness didn't feel interesting or electric to me, especially after books like All Fours or even There's a side age gap relationship in good material for inst. And those felt more complicated and more nuanced than just, we're dating, but we're different ages. There was a real spark there that I didn't feel here. And then, maybe it's just me, but I found this is the most egregious thing for me. But I found that the characters in these relationships were flat. I couldn't figure out why Peter liked Naomi. And that's never really explored. Why does Margaret like Ivan? She says many times that she felt like they were in the same camp. And I just kept thinking, why? And she keeps repeating this phrase, we're in the same camp. The camp is supposed to be outsiders. But the first time she thinks this, they're at a chess tournament. And Ivan's not an outsider at a chess tournament. He is like the model that we're aspiring to be. And we keep. We're signaled and we're told that they're in the same camp, they're outsiders, but you never experience that. And maybe we can have a whole side conversation about poor Margaret. Poor Margaret, who I think gets the short End of the stick for character development.

[Sadie Stein]

Really. I think Sylvia does.

[MJ Franklin]

Really?

[Sadie Stein]

Yeah. I just totally.

[Joumana Khatib]

Sylvia, I think she's.

[MJ Franklin]

Wait, should we just dig in? Should we just dig in there?

[Sadie Stein]

She's too angelic.

[MJ Franklin]

I didn't think she was angelic though. I felt like she. She definitely is seen by everyone around her as the saint. Ivan looks up to her. She is the only person that Ivan can actually connect with. Peter looks up to her. She is his great lost love. She's this brilliant lecturer but I feel like in her actions you see some of those complications that we have in other Rooney books. She is saying, I don't want you, Petyr. But her actions, she's pulling him closer. She's definitely using him for more than just a platonic friend relationship. And there was a contradiction that I think is characteristic of a lot of Rooney characters that I saw in her actions. I'm getting quizzical faces from the room.

[Joumana Khatib]

I love that for you. I think Sylvia deserved the opportunity to explore more about like how her physical pain and her disability impacted her life beyond the ability to not have sex with Peter. It was mind boggling. Like, you know, if you go back to conversations, there's a scene where one of the characters I think has endometriosis or she has difficult periods. That scene blows any of this out of the water. So I was just driven half. I was like tempted to ask my gynecologist, what do you think could have happened? Which is not a good thing. It's not a good. It's not a good after reading experience if you have to seek medical advice to like understand the stakes of what's going on.

[Dave Kim]

Yeah.

[Sadie Stein]

She just felt flat to me. Both those women did. He felt a bit flat too. As much as we've been talking about some of the pearl clutching about the age difference. That was the more engaging of the two plot lines for sure. No, quite. I just. I bought it more. You understood that one sex scene was really beautiful and funny and tender. I think almost all the funny parts were related to that plotline. And she can be very funny, which I think always bears mentioning. She also, Naomi doesn't get a pov. So that's part of the problem with bringing her to life.

[Joumana Khatib]

I also didn't like Sylvia as a foil to Naomi. That's my other problem is I just thought it was like so flimsy.

[Sadie Stein]

It was black and white is just.

[MJ Franklin]

The puns are unstoppable here today. Can I mount my last defense of Sylvia? Because I hear everything that you're saying. And I agree. What is this medical condition? What is going on? It is not rendered with specificity, which was really frustrating. The reason why I liked her, though, is because I feel like I mentioned complications and contradictions and Sally Rooney's characters and dynamics. There's always, in her books, a sense that these characters are equals. Even when they're in different stages, they are equals intellectually. Equals in interest, equals force in their own way. But they have different amounts of charm and power. So by that I mean like Frances and Bobby in Conversations With Friends. Frances is the. She's supposed to be the quiet one. She's supposed to be the industrious one. She's the one that writes all the poems. But people are more interested in how Bobby delivers them. But secretly, even though Bobby is more charismatic, more people like Frances than they like Bobby, because Bobby is threatening. And there is this kind of wavering between who has the power, who has a leg up in that relationship, in those dynamics that you're just watching throughout the course of the book. And that makes them more complex, similar for Connell and Marianne and normal people. Connell and Marianne are intellectual equals. They're both the top of their class. Marianne is rich, Connell is not, but he is popular. So their social systems are already in flux. And then they go off to college and that changes again. And you're watching those dynamics play out through the course of the novel. Sylvia and Peter, I think, had that same type of dynamic. Peter is charming. He's this really great lawyer. He was this debater. Sylvia is a great lecturer. She's the love of Peter's life. And so their power dynamics are like. They're both equally brilliant. They have different approaches and understandings of the relationship. Of course, Sylvia is rendered in a flatter kind of way, but in terms of the spark, the connection of the setup of the relationship, I felt that more between Peter and Sylvia than I felt for the other characters.

[Joumana Khatib]

See, I actually. I hear you, and I reject everything you say out of hand, if only because, A. I think that Sylvia is put on a pedestal. And I. And part of that is her sexual unavailability. And then the end result of, like, Peter and Naomi and Sylvia. And I'm gonna draw this out so you can hit pause if you haven't finished this book. Is that, like, when they end up in this sort of demented trio where it's like, what is this kind of, like, dream male fantasy where you have the, like, endlessly sexually desirable and available young woman, Naomi, that, like, Peter gets to protect and fund, and, like, House and care for. And then he has Sylvia, who is the sort of like emotional connection, the long standing, I think, probably the most consistent female attachment he's had. What is this? I hated how the two most salient aspects of these women were just foils for one another. It felt so flimsy and cheap, and I was really disappointed.

[Dave Kim]

That assumes that they have no agency, that they're just. That they don't have any sort of feelings for the men, that they're just there to be ogled and enjoyed. And I don't know, I felt like I did get a sense of their interiority and their motivations, I think, are complicated. I think that's why I actually felt that the characters in this novel were, for me, the most developed of her other books. And I think that's because they don't make a lot of sense. Their motivations are off. The causation is weird. There's just something inscrutable about all of them. Why are they doing what they're doing? Somehow that sense of confusion for me is exactly what made them so real, feel so real. I don't know why that appealed to me so much, but it did. I actually think that in this novel, Sally Rooney was really able to throw off the mantle that you had mentioned earlier of the millennial novelist. And I think it didn't, to me, feel like she was trying to make some kind of generational comment that she was not as engaged in grappling with those worldly issues that she was in her previous books. I'm thinking most specifically of Beautiful World, Where Are you? In which it was split. This was a book that was split between this very realist love story and the kind of worldly issues of the present day. And to me, it just didn't work. And I felt burdened by the kind of Wikipedia Marxism that we were getting and the kind of transparent binaries, the class anxiety. All of that felt to me artificial in a way that really sank the other side of it. With this one. She seemed to not feel that pressure to be a kind of zeitgeist y writer and to just really explore the inscrutability of love and the power of love. I'm sorry to use that, Dave, our feeler.

[MJ Franklin]

You're getting a reputation.

[Dave Kim]

I know, I know, I know. Huey Lewis is singing right now. But I felt like that was a risk for her to take and at least for her, and I admired it.

[Sadie Stein]

I was also thinking just how many times in this conversation of this one book, we have brought up the prior three and the almost prison of her past success for good and bad. People talk about the inevitable backlash and their fears inevitably with someone who has success young, that they will ultimately lose the real life experience required to keep powering new narratives. And I think it's very brave that she is pushing through and is trying to do something different. And I don't think it's all successful, but I give her a lot of points for again emerging with as much optimism as she did and being generous enough to provide some kind of old fashioned storytelling in a way.

[MJ Franklin]

That's an interesting point and we're gonna dive into and more into this conversation, but first I think we should take a quick break.

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[Joumana Khatib]

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[Sadie Stein]

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[MJ Franklin]

Everyone deserves a Moon Pig card. This is the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin, I'm with Jumana Khatib, Sadie Stein and Dave Kim, and we're talking about Intermezzo by Sally Rooney. Going into this book, Sally Rooney did an interview with the Times, actually with the Interview podcast, and she spoke about how she doesn't want to feel this pressure to keep changing and keep she why isn't enough just to write, stay in her lane and write great books in that lane. But I actually found this book, similarly to Sadie, very different than her previous work. And the obvious way is we have brothers as the center. Instead of her typical great female protagonists, we have an exploration of grief. But I also felt like the characters were not as innately enmeshed like in her previous books. They're not great collaborators, they're not classmates, they're not writing these long emails to each other. All of the characters, in their own way, are pretty isolated, which I found really interesting. And so this book felt like it was playing with isolation. It felt like it was playing with stasis. And I feel like those were interesting new colors to add to a Sally Rooney project.

[Joumana Khatib]

And loss. Everybody has an identity in this story that's forged by loss, right? The brothers have lost their parent. Sylvia has lost her sexual faculties and the relationship, or even like a legible, intelligible relationship pattern with Peter. Naomi is precarious from the jump, right? The only thing that I think that really gives her any kind of security as her desirability, how she looks in cashmere, like, how many people want to pay to see her online. And so that actually, that's a change too, right. In addition to the different stage of life, they're all responding to something being taken from them in that sense of precarity.

[MJ Franklin]

So I guess my question for the table is, given this new kind of approach other than relationships, was there something that stood out to you about this book? Was there a thing that interested you? When you're thinking back on this novel, you're like, oh, yeah. This, for me, is a really salient topic.

[Dave Kim]

We didn't talk much about the style of the novel and the form. I think maybe we could get into that a little bit.

[MJ Franklin]

Lead the charge. Lead the charge.

[Dave Kim]

I read some criticism of that choice, especially in Peter's section, to write in the kind of clipped sentences that she uses. A kind of Joycean stream of consciousness that is, I think it's supposed to illustrate a kind of stark, rational Persona in Peter. Someone who's impatient, someone who feels that the connective tissue of language is inefficient and that he can just translate his thoughts directly into key words and phrases. I have mixed feelings on it. I think. I think it poses a challenge for any reader at the beginning to let the book tell you how to be read. And, yeah, I don't quite know what I feel about it, actually, so I'm gonna shut up.

[MJ Franklin]

And, yeah, luckily we have a whole panel of people to help sort through it.

[Sadie Stein]

Again, I give a lot of points for experimenting with the style. I didn't like all of it as a reader, when I think about it, I appreciate it in the larger landscape, especially because she has been saddled with this mantle of being the voice of her generations or a voice of agents.

[MJ Franklin]

Lena Dunham Girls. I see that reference.

[Sadie Stein]

And it's a generation, which I would say is normally characterized by almost single shooter POV style writing. And so I like People departing from that.

[Joumana Khatib]

I think this is the book where she, you know, she's liberated herself from the epistolary form and ims. And like what? Like this is really the most classically written novel. I said my piece that I didn't love Peter's narration. I found it too disjointed, and I could never fully settle into it. But Sally Rooney can really write, and I appreciated a long, fat novel.

[Sadie Stein]

Yes, I think we all appreciate the gift of a substantial read to curl up with.

[Joumana Khatib]

Thank you, Sadie. Yes. And I think that there are moments in the book that really sing from a lyrical standpoint. I think lyrical writing is some of the hardest to pull off, or at least that's what Joseph O'Neill told me, and I believe him. And that's pretty much all I have to say about the style.

[Dave Kim]

I think even in Peter's bits, there was quite a bit of poetry to that. I think as stark and as clipped as it was supposed to be to me, it felt very lyrical. In fact, even more so than the other bits, than the other narration.

[Sadie Stein]

Do you remember when we started talking? I said that my feelings had changed when I started reading it a little bit more immersively myself. And I think. I think that's part of what I mean is that I found some of the pacing a little jarring initially. And then when I just spent a whole weekend just lying around doing nothing but reading this book and allowed myself to fully surrender to it, I suddenly grew to appreciate a lot of things about it, and they aren't necessarily interesting.

[Joumana Khatib]

Stylistic things, now that you say it, Sadie, like, probably the most positive endorsement I can say for this style is like every relationship, romantic or friendship. But I think you feel it more keenly in romantic relationships. Like, you develop your own demotic. You have your own way of speaking, you have your own way of interacting with each other. And maybe that's what this book does impose on you. It's like the same different kind of vocabulary or lexicon that you have in a very specific relationship. And that's the thing you miss when a relationship's over. Right. So maybe it comes close to replicating that feeling.

[MJ Franklin]

My frustration with the style is I wanted it to go for it more, I think. Dave, you mentioned Joycean. There is a fluidity and a malleability of how Joyce and his stream of consciousness, especially in a book like Ulysses, for instance, it's always changing and morphing based on the character's mental states. And that doesn't happen with Peter. Peter is on Xanax half the time he is drunk, half the time he is high half the time. Sometimes he's calm, sometimes he's. But his style never changes and the style seemed to be reflecting his mental state at a given time. I wanted that to feel more fluid than it actually was. So that's my gripe. But I did get lost in it. And then more than anything, what I love about Sally Rooney's writing is her. Not even just like the sentence structures, but her eye, the details that she lights on. And I feel like she's really great at highlighting what I kept calling the freighted ambivalences of romance. And can I read a quote? The quote is. I think it's part of when Margaret and Ivan are getting together for the first time and Sally Rooney writes, then he kisses her again. It is of course, a desperately embarrassing situation, a situation which seems to render her entire life meaningless. Her professional life, eight years of marriage, whatever she believes about her personal values, everything. And yet accepting the premise, allowing life to mean nothing for a moment, doesn't it simply feel good to be in the arms of this person, feeling that he wants her, that all evening he has been looking at her and desiring her? Isn't it pleasurable to embody the kind of woman he believed he couldn't have? To incorporate that woman into herself and allow him to have her pressed against her. His body is thin and tensed and shivering. And what if life is just a collection of essentially unrelated experiences? Why does one thing have to follow meaningfully from another? I mentioned how I thought some of the characters were flat, but just that passage alone, the emotional complexity and emotional journey of it felt so rich to me.

[Dave Kim]

I'm hearing some concessions here, guys, from all three of you, this is.

[Joumana Khatib]

Sorry, listeners, you haven't seen Dave's crowbar that he's kept under the death.

[MJ Franklin]

I just want to ask, are there any last things you want to touch on? And while you think I just want to share a reader comment thought was really astute and I really loved reading. Grace from New York writes, one of my favorite things about Sally Rooney's writing in general and Intermezzo in particular is her ability to show that caring for someone, loving someone and being good for someone are three different things. Intermezzo explores how loving someone is vulnerable and makes you hurt each other and yourself. The way emotional power structures inform how characters conceptualize love shows a defining part of modern relationships and modern romance. I just thought that was really, really thoughtful. I wanted to share that on.

[Sadie Stein]

I can't top that get this reader.

[Joumana Khatib]

Yeah, Grace, come on the podcast. What are you doing next month?

[Dave Kim]

Yeah, to me, really, it showed the kind of deep irony of love and how destructive and miserable it can be, and yet it's so indispensable, like we cannot function without it. And it really illustrated that, as cheesy as it sounds, I really felt that.

[Joumana Khatib]

The violins are going to start swelling.

[Dave Kim]

I know, I know. Huey Lewis is still here.

[Joumana Khatib]

Yeah, he's been here the whole time.

[Dave Kim]

He's been here the whole time. Just sitting on the desk, just waiting.

[Sadie Stein]

What did we just make Dave, like, read and watch rom coms?

[MJ Franklin]

Spin off podcast. Spin Off Podcast.

[Dave Kim]

I think I'm ready.

[MJ Franklin]

Speaking of Spin off podcast, let's do a spin off segment. We have some book recommendations. This time inspired by Sally Rooney's label as the, quote, first great millennial novelist. I wanted to know what are other books that come to mind when you think of the millennial? No, I want to keep that very broad. I want to keep that very open. That can mean a book about specifically millennials. It could be a book that feels like it captures a particular millennial voice or experience. It could be a book that felt like a millennial publishing moment. What is a book that this moniker millennial novel made you think of? I'm seeing some quizzical looks from truly everybody in this studio.

[Sadie Stein]

My look is terrified because I'm really panicking.

[Joumana Khatib]

The only one I can think of is Private Citizens by Tony Tuladimuti, which is a satire of Silicon Valley, basically. I would. I guess I would call that a millennial novel.

[MJ Franklin]

Talk to me about why it came to mind and then why you're, like, hesitating. What is this book?

[Joumana Khatib]

A. I'm tired of being affiliated with my generation because I don't think that we have much to show for ourselves in the literary department. What have been the great zeitgeist y books of the last ten years?

[MJ Franklin]

Sally Rooney.

[Joumana Khatib]

Sally Rooney.

[MJ Franklin]

For me, this is technically not. It doesn't follow Millennials, but I felt like it was a millennial moment and definitely has a millennial themed cover. And that is the Idiot by Elif Batumin. I feel like the voice of that book. It's clean, it's blunt, it's sharp, it's anxious, but knowing it's wry. Something about the specific blend of the main character's voice in the Idiot felt to me distinctly millennial, even though she's. Even though she's an Xer. But something about that book feels like a millennial moment for me and also Remember when that book came out and everyone was like, millennial pink book covers? And that also is probably making the association for me, but I have a list if I want to.

[Dave Kim]

Yeah, maybe.

[MJ Franklin]

Okay, so I thought of Luster by Raven Leilani. I mentioned the idiot we have to talk about Halle Butler, the new me. Millennials in the workforce floundering and then also banal nightmare. I think people were calling the first millennial midlife crisis novel. And then for me, I have Burnham Wood by Eleanor Catton, which I think those characters are technically Gen Z, but the relationship dynamic felt very Rooney to me at the start. But can I ask Giovanna, you mentioned not wanting to be tied to this particular generation. We're all having trouble thinking of the millennial novel. What is it about?

[Dave Kim]

Like, I think it's because we're millennials. We don't feel like a book really speaks to.

[Joumana Khatib]

I'm too special for anybody.

[Dave Kim]

Exactly. No one wants to feel like they're just another millennial. I guess I'm a geriatric millennial, which that term gets funnier to me as I get old. Or I should say less and less funny as I get older.

[Sadie Stein]

So the thing about that term, as with everything we're talking about, is it has to do with technology, right? Like when it entered your life, when a phone became an everyday part of your life. If you started with dial up and blogs, that's very different from coming of age with social media. It just is. And so I think it's a particularly hard moment to capture. And I think it's one of the reasons Sally Rooney is notable because she started very young and so she's been capturing each stage of it. And I think we don't yet know what this moment has been besides chaotic and difficult to cope with fictionally.

[MJ Franklin]

I think that's a wonderful note to end on. And I just wanna say, Sadie, Dave Jumana, thank you so much for this conversation. This is really fun. Dave, you were right. You did hear some kind of hedging, some convincing. This is why I love talking to you about love.

[Dave Kim]

Yeah, it's great. And you've got. You guys have really made me like this book a little less, which I'm not sure why is a good thing. But I am receptive to your book.

[Sadie Stein]

This is what the book club is all about. The only problem with this one is that I don't hate anyone in this room.

[MJ Franklin]

Thank you to everybody who read along with us online and joined the conversation. Thank you to those readers whose comments I read earlier in this episode. Everyone please keep the conversation going Again. We have an online book club hub for our Intermezzo discussion. You can find it at nytimes.com SallyRooneyBookClub Hyphens between Sally Rooney Book Club Every word there. And also, I teased at the beginning of the episode that we were gonna reveal our November book selection. And here we are. In November, we'll be discussing 100 Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. We hope you'll join us. And in the meantime, happy reading.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That was our monthly book club discussion, this one about Intermezzo by Sally Rooney. MJ Franklin hosting in conversation with Joe, Monica Teeb, Sadie Stein and Dave Kim. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. Thanks for listening.