Steven Soderbergh on His Reading Life (Rerun)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Book Review – "Steven Soderbergh on His Reading Life" (Rerun) Release Date: March 21, 2025

Host: Gilbert Cruz
Guest: Steven Soderbergh, Acclaimed Film Director

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Introduction and Background

In this rerun episode of The Book Review, Gilbert Cruz, editor of The New York Times Book Review, revisits a compelling conversation with the prolific film director Steven Soderbergh. Originally conducted in January 2024, this episode delves into Soderbergh's extensive reading habits, his personal cataloging system, and how literature intertwines with his creative process.

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The Genesis of the 765 List

[00:33] Gilbert Cruz:
Gilbert introduces the focal point of the conversation: Soderbergh's "765" list—a comprehensive day-by-day record of every book he reads, along with movies, TV shows, and plays he engages with.

[01:57] Steven Soderbergh:
Soderbergh explains the origin of the list:
"I was trying to draw attention to my T-shirt business... but it became an exercise in creating a personal calendar to chart what I was consuming each year. It's a low-impact way to orient my memory, especially post-pandemic when our sense of time has been distorted."
This system has been active since 2009 and serves as a reflective tool for him to assess his intellectual and creative landscape over the years.

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Reading as a Singular Experience

[03:03] Steven Soderbergh:
Soderbergh compares reading to listening to music, emphasizing its unique ability to anchor moments in time:
"Books were once central to cultural conversations, much like songs are today. Reading offers a singular experience where my imagination is fully engaged without distractions."
He highlights the diminishing number of such distilled experiences in the modern age, underscoring his appreciation for deep, immersive reading.

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Coping with Stress Through Reading

[05:07] Gilbert Cruz:
Gilbert notes that Soderbergh read approximately 80 books in 2023.

[05:15] Steven Soderbergh:
Soderbergh attributes this surge to a stressful year, using reading as a form of meditation:
"I read to calm down, to immerse myself in something other than work-related stressors like screenplays or scripts."
This habit not only provided solace but also maintained his productivity amidst a demanding schedule, including multiple film releases.

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Balancing Productivity and Personal Reading

[06:22] Steven Soderbergh:
Soderbergh discusses the challenge of balancing his reading with his professional obligations:
"People send me books related to my projects, expecting timely responses. Reading books as a de-stressor means these work-related reads take longer."
He reveals plans to implement a reward system to manage and prioritize these obligations better.

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Embracing Non-Completion in Reading

[11:13] Steven Soderbergh:
Addressing the guilt associated with not finishing books, Soderbergh states:
"If you bought a book, you don't have to feel guilty about not finishing it. You've already supported the artist."
He encourages listeners to embrace the freedom to curate their reading experiences without remorse.

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Developing a Commonplace Book

[13:01] Steven Soderbergh:
To retain memorable insights, Soderbergh has started maintaining a document of highlighted passages:
"If I don't write it down, it's gone. This is my solution to the information overload of modern times."
This practice aligns with the traditional concept of a commonplace book, allowing him to revisit and reflect on impactful content.

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Deep Dive into Specific Works

Sarah Bakewell’s "How to Live"

[14:39] Gilbert Cruz:
Gilbert brings up Sarah Bakewell's "How to Live," a study of Michel de Montaigne.

[14:39] Steven Soderbergh:
Soderbergh expresses admiration for Montaigne's enduring wisdom:
"Montaigne's essays were revolutionary, tackling subjects like procrastination and marriage in ways that resonate even today."
He reflects on the timeless nature of Montaigne's insights and their relevance to contemporary society.

Randall Jarrell’s "Pictures from an Institution"

[35:40] Steven Soderbergh:
Soderbergh shares his favorite re-read book, gifted by Mike Nichols:
"Randall Jarrell's 'Pictures from an Institution' is a masterpiece. Every time I read it, I discover something new. It's a beautifully structured novella that never gets old."
He emphasizes the book's lasting impact and its role in his literary repertoire.

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Technology and Reading

[28:36] Steven Soderbergh:
Discussing his reliance on digital devices, Soderbergh marvels at modern technology:
"With my iPad, I can read, edit films, and manage multiple tasks seamlessly. However, I'm skeptical about the endless iterations without significant improvements."
He reflects on the balance between technological advancements and their practical utility in creative workflows.

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Fiction as a Mirror to Humanity

[31:02] Steven Soderbergh:
Soderbergh lauds Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie's storytelling prowess:
"Her prose is aerodynamic—every syllable serves a purpose. Reading her novels feels like being granted access to someone else's consciousness."
He underscores the power of fiction to foster empathy and understanding by delving deep into characters' minds.

[34:02] Gilbert Cruz:
Gilbert aligns this perspective with philosophical insights:
"Sarah Bakewell argued that Montaigne wrote to create a mirror for humanity. Similarly, fiction allows readers to see reflections of their own humanity through created characters."

[34:53] Steven Soderbergh:
Acknowledging the dual benefits of fiction, Soderbergh adds:
"Chimamanda's work is intensely pleasurable and intellectually stimulating. It continually amazes me with her mastery of storytelling."

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The Role of Free Will in Storytelling

[38:09] Steven Soderbergh:
Soderbergh recommends Robert Sapolsky's "Determined," discussing its implications on free will:
"Sapolsky's work challenges the notion of free will, suggesting our decisions are determined by prior experiences and genetics. This has profound implications for storytelling, ensuring character behaviors are consistent and believable."
He connects this philosophy to his filmmaking, emphasizing the importance of credible character motivations.

[40:46] Steven Soderbergh:
Expanding on free will's impact on narrative structure, Soderbergh states:
"Understanding that behavior is determined makes me strive for rigorous plot mathematics. Characters must act consistently based on their backstories to avoid narrative discrepancies."
This approach enhances the authenticity of his films, ensuring audiences remain engaged and invested.

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Conclusion and Reflections

[43:38] Gilbert Cruz:
Gilbert praises Soderbergh's insights, suggesting the possibility of an entire podcast episode dedicated to these themes.

[43:54] Steven Soderbergh:
Expressing gratitude, Soderbergh concludes:
"That was fun. Thanks."
Reflecting on the rich discussion, both host and guest acknowledge the intertwining of literature and filmmaking as essential components of creative expression.

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Notable Quotes

• Steven Soderbergh [01:57]:
  "It's a low-impact, non-lethal way to orient my memory, which I find as time goes on... our sense of when things happened has been completely distorted."

• Steven Soderbergh [05:15]:
  "I read as a form of meditation because... I have to start logging them down."

• Steven Soderbergh [11:13]:
  "If you bought a book, you don't have to feel guilty about not finishing it. You've already supported the artist."

• Steven Soderbergh [14:39]:
  "Montaigne's essays were revolutionary, tackling subjects like procrastination and marriage in ways that resonate even today."

• Steven Soderbergh [31:02]:
  "Chimamanda's prose is aerodynamic—every syllable serves a purpose. It's like being inside of somebody else's consciousness."

• Steven Soderbergh [38:09]:
  "Sapolsky's work challenges the notion of free will... This has profound implications for storytelling."

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Final Thoughts

Steven Soderbergh's expansive reading life offers profound insights into how literature shapes and informs his cinematic endeavors. His disciplined approach to reading, coupled with a reflective cataloging system, underscores the symbiotic relationship between consuming and creating art. This episode of The Book Review provides a nuanced look into the mind of a director who views books not just as sources of entertainment, but as essential building blocks for understanding human behavior and crafting authentic narratives.

For those seeking to explore Soderbergh's literary influences or to gain inspiration for their own reading habits, his 765 list is an invaluable resource. Visit Steven Soderbergh's site extension 765 to dive deeper into his curated list of books, films, and more.

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This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Gilbert Cruz and Steven Soderbergh, highlighting key discussions and providing a structured overview for listeners and those who haven't tuned in.

Transcript

[Zibby Owens]

This podcast is supported by Totally Booked with Zippy, the Webby Award winning show formerly known as Moms don't have Time to Read Books. Each weekday on Totally Booked, best selling author Zippy Owens, dubbed NYC's most powerful bookfluencer by Vulture, sits down with the best and fuzziest writers from bestselling author Kristin Hannah to actress Jennifer Love Hewitt and beyond. Stay on top of the latest book releases and hidden gems. Follow Totally Booked with Zibby on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite listening Apple.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Hello, I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review Podcast. I was traveling recently, everyone, and then I have to tell you, I came down with the most wicked bug. It just laid me low for many, many days. So we have a rerun for you this week and a pretty good one in January 2024. I spoke to the movie director Steven Soderbergh about his reading life. He is a huge reader. Soderbergh has just released his second film of 2025, the spy thriller Black Bag, starring Michael Fassbender and Cate Blanchett. It seemed like a good time to revisit our conversation. Here you go. Every year Steven Soderbergh, the incredibly prolific director, publishes on his site extension 765, a detailed day by day list of every book he's read, every movie and TV show he's watched, every play he's attended. I've read these lists for years. I've gotten great pleasure from them and I wanted to have Steven on to talk about the books. Steven Soderbergh, welcome to the Book Review podcast.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Thanks for having me Steven.

[Gilbert Cruz]

At least on your site it goes back to 2009. You've been doing this list for quite a while. Why did you start? Why did you want the public to see this?

[Steven Soderbergh]

Well, I was trying to draw attention to my T shirt business and this seemed like the most obvious. Turned out didn't really move a needle very much, but it was for me just an exercise in creating a personal calendar of what was happening in my life during that period. Period. So for me it really just become something. If I'm to look back on it, I can chart based on what I was looking at or reading that year, where I was like, where my head was, what I was doing. Work wise, it's to me a kind of low impact, non lethal way to orient my memory, which I find as time goes on and especially because of the pandemic, our sense of when things happened and what was happening to Us has been completely distorted.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I was texting with a friend earlier and this friend says, and I'm the same way. Maybe you're the same way. It's often when you say, when did this movie come out? Or when did I see this movie is attached to a year, is attached to a time, is attached to a moment. But once you have too many of those, you just have to start logging them down. Especially for someone who is an intense cultural consumer, as it seems like you.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Are, or like a song, I would argue that songs have as strong or even a stronger sense of orientation for people of who they were when they heard that song. Books, I think, used to do that more than they do now. Maybe they used to be. At least when I was growing up, there would be a certain book that would kind of really dominate the cultural conversation for a period of time. And I don't say that. I don't think that's the same as it is now as a dis. Because I would say say the same thing about movies. I don't think movies matter the same way today as they did when I was 17. But I still view reading books as a kind of singular experience. You can't do another thing while you're reading a book. You may have the. Some people can read with music on. I can't. I really want all of the world available to my imagination when I'm reading somebody's words. But as time goes on, the number of experiences that are. That distilled, I think are decreasing. And I think that's why I value it so much. We were talking before. I think this is the most amount of books I've read in a year since I've published the list.

[Gilbert Cruz]

If my counter's right, you read something in the neighborhood in 2023 of 80 books. 80ish books.

[Steven Soderbergh]

So what that indicates to me is it was a very stressful year because I read in order to calm down. I read as a form of. Of meditation because of the fact that you can only do that one thing. And it's a thing that I'm not doing. It's a thing that somebody else is doing and I'm dipping into it. And so if that's the case, it means last year just required a lot of time where I was happy.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Since 2017, when you released Logan Lucky, you've released at least one movie a year every year. I think in 2019, maybe you released two movies and you have a new movie premiering at Sundance this year. Presence, you worked on that last year. I imagine but somehow you still found time to read 80 books. It sounds like this is what you do in your downtime. But how do you find the time to read so many while still being so productive, while still working on a project?

[Steven Soderbergh]

Well, the unfortunate side effect of that is that there are a lot of people who sent me things to read within the context of my day job that I have either agreed to read or am sort of legally bound to read, that I have, like, actual fiduciary obligations here to read. And now they're going to find out, like, why does it take him so long to read this? And it really is because if I'm reading books as a de stressor, a screenplay, a script or a show or whatever, regardless of its context or source or what the situation is, represents work, which is a potential stressor. So I have a plan for this year to solve it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay.

[Steven Soderbergh]

But I am managing my expectations about my ability to actually execute this plan. But. But at least now for the people affected, there's a reason why it takes me so long to read stuff that I've been sent.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Do you want to put this plan out into the world so we could all hold you responsible, or is that another stressor?

[Steven Soderbergh]

Well, no. What I'm developing is a sort of very reasonable reward system for every time I check one of these off the list. Now, I haven't decided what that is yet, but I've decided that sort of incentive program is what I need to solve this problem. So we'll check in next year and see how it went. The most obvious thing is some sort of object or food item or something. But I want it to be a little less obvious. I want it to be something that accumulates over time, isn't necessarily a near term dopamine hit, but that if you manage to do it over a long period of time, the payoff is like, you'll die.

[Gilbert Cruz]

This is real self behavior modification, like self psychology.

[Steven Soderbergh]

I'm just trying to optimize a process.

[Gilbert Cruz]

All right, you know what? We're gonna have to check in next year about how this all went.

[Steven Soderbergh]

We should.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So very quickly, just for my curiosity, the dates that you write on your list are those, I assume, are the dates when you finish the book.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Exactly.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Which means you're reading multiple books at once. Do you ever note books that you don't finish? Are you quitting books?

[Steven Soderbergh]

No, you're correct. If it looks like there were a couple titles on a certain day, it's because I was reading both of them and finished them both. I start things and stop. That goes for almost anything. That goes for shows, that goes for movies. Plays, not so much. It's embarrassing. But if the writing is just clanking on my ear, then I have to stop. Like, I can't get past feeling like the writing is kind of hurting me in the same way that if I watch a movie, bad shots hurt my eyes. And I'm getting older. And how many more of these do I have? So 30? Who knows? There's a difference between something that starts and has the potential to kind of find its compass and something that you just know. Like, I'm never going to be able to wrap my mind around this. Like, this is just not going to work for me. And I say that about things that I've made for people. I told people about the Laundromat, a film I made a couple of years ago. I go, if you're unhappy in the first two minutes, just stop. Because it's not gonna get any better. Like, this is what we're doing. And if you don't like this kind of self referential, directed, direct, like, stop. Cause that's what we're doing. So I feel justified in assessing if this is gonna orient itself toward a place that I can embrace or kind of grab onto, or if this is just not for me.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I feel like when it comes to books in particular, people actually feel guilty about starting a book and stopping or not finishing it in a way that maybe they don't with other artistic.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Well, they shouldn't. They should only feel guilty if they stole it. If they bought it, they don't even have to pick it up. Forget about stopping after page 20. If you bought it, you supported an artist. So I'm just saying to everybody, if you paid for it, you get to do whatever you want to do. You've already fulfilled the part of the contract that the artist cares about, which is like, you paid. So I'm fine with that.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Let's talk about some books. We're going to jump around a little, if that's okay.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Well, I hope I can remember what we talk about, because one thing that I discovered young was as completely immersed as I get in a book when I'm reading it. And it is total. Typically when I'm done, it's gone. And I thought this was a defect in my brain until I read this book written by the famous and skilled Hollywood screenwriter Ben Hecht, a Child of the century, which is his doorstop of a memoir. Fascinating. Fascinating. He. He described the same thing. He was a voracious reader, but he Described this weird thing where he goes, I would finish the book, would have enjoyed it more than anything I've ever enjoyed, and it would just vanish within days. And I'm like that a little bit. And as a corrective, I've started highlighting things that if I'm reading something that I think are memorable and putting them into a document so that I don't completely lose the experience. So that's a whole other project is compiling those highlights.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I mean, that's essentially your own commonplace book, which is, I believe, what some people refer to these as. Our book critic, one of our book critics here, Dwight Garner, does that with quotes. He has tens of thousands maybe of quotes or passages from books that he's read over the years. Because in some way that's you want to refer to them, you want to go back to them, and maybe that's the only way to remember and have them all in one place.

[Steven Soderbergh]

It is for me, like, if I don't write it down, if it doesn't get memorialized, it's gone. And that's not. I think that's a normal reaction to a world in which we have so much information coming at us all the time.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Well, this actually relates to one of the books you read, which was a book called how to A Life of Mantegna by Sarah Bakewell. So for those listeners who don't know who Sarah Bakewell is, she is a writer who has written several books about philosophy, the history of philosophy, famous philosophers. She wrote a book called at the Existentialist Cafe. This was about Jean Paul Sartre, Camus, Simone de Beauvoir. And her first book, which Stephen, you read this year, was how to Live of Life of Michel de Montaigne. This was the 16th century nobleman and essayist. He's a man who is considered to have created the essay, the personal essay, and one of the chapters in the book. It's a book that gives you 20 answers to one question. And one of them was something to the effect of read a lot, don't worry about remembering it. That was literally one of the chapter headings.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Well, first of all, you mispronounced Montaigne. So that was embarrassing.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That's just went to school.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Cut that out. No, I'm kidding. I'm embarrassed that it took me this long to get to him. I knew of him. There was a quote that he's known for that was actually in my quote document, has been for a long time, in reference to his overwhelming grief at the death of one of his close friends and somebody Said, wow, dude, why so? And he said, because it was he. Because it was me. And that was just like a beautifully resonant idea. So. But it wasn't until I read Sarah's book that I thought, okay, I really need to go back and check out who this guy is. And as you say, when you go back and read these essays and I'm not done, this thing is massive because he weighed in on everything. And he weighed in on everything in a way that sounds like it was written tomorrow. And that's why it was so revolutionary. I mean, he really did create this whole idea of, like, writing an essay on procrastination, on education, on marriage. Like, he started that, and he started this whole idea of, well, I don't know. I've read a lot of stuff, talked to a lot of people. Here's where I come down on this subject. Nobody had ever really done this in the way that he did it. As a result, he became both famous and sort of infamous. He has a very fascinating essay where he talks about imagining what his cat is thinking about him as he plays with it. And the church found this really unacceptable. You're not allowed to anthropomorphize animals like that. And so for 150 years, they banned his essay. So I'm, like I said, I'm a little embarrassed I'm coming to it late because it's such a good gold mine. And then at the same time, it really reminds you that most of the basic ideas that we carry about how to behave, how to create a society are not new. And what's new is certain pieces of technology which, throughout human history, we have placed a disproportionate importance on. We've always believed. We have always believed while we're aware that we're not doing a great job of this thing, as witnessed by reading the front page of the New York Times. We've always believed, like, oh, there's going to be this one piece of tech, and it's going to unlock the thing that makes us not do this right? And it's never happened, and I don't think it ever will. But reading these essays really brings home this idea that our level of wisdom hasn't been much higher. Like, this guy set a level for just pure wisdom about the world and the people in it. And I'm going, wow, that was a long time ago, and I can't beat it.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Very quickly, I want to ask, and hopefully readers will get some recommendations from this podcast from you, but where do you get your recommendations? From. Are you reading reviews? Are you going to your local bookstore? Are you asking friends what they're reading?

[Steven Soderbergh]

It's all of that. It really is all of that. I'm a subscriber to the paper, God bless you edition of the New York Times. So I'm looking what's in there, but I'm looking all over the place. I'm obviously, I have a phone that can connect me to anything and I have friends, a group of friends where we, you know, go back and forth. What did you read? So it's all of that. It's very serendipitous. Occasionally it's work related. It might, there might be some homework aspect or aspirational aspect in the sense that, oh, I'm thinking about a film or a project on this subject. I should try and educate myself. But it's very fluid and it is really fun to follow. Just a tributary like you can see in the list. Last year, for a certain period of time, the movie Cleopatra from 1963 suddenly like landed on my head and I had to read everything that was ever published about the making of this movie. And it turns out there's some stuff. Why, I don't know.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Yeah, you read two books in a row about the making of Cleopatra and then I think you read a book about the real life Cleopatra. Yeah, you just, you had to know it all.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Well, let's not forget, on that list is the 1934 Cecil B. DeMille version of Cleopatra with Claudette Colbert. And if there's anything that comes from this podcast, this needs to be seen. This thing is insane. It's insane.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Yeah, it's insane. Oh, yeah, no, it's beautiful. It's the most beautiful thing you've ever seen. But it's, it's, it's just so entertaining. I mean, this was in 1934. Cecil B. DeMille did not care about anything but whipping an audience into a frenzy. You know what I mean? Like, that's all he thought about all day, is like, how do I get people, like, totally excited? And so there's a kind of spirit that comes with being that loose that's really infectious.

[Gilbert Cruz]

We'll be right back.

[Zibby Owens]

This podcast is supported by Totally Booked with Zippy, the Webby award winning show formerly known as Moms don't have time to Read Books. Each weekday on Totally Booked, best selling author Zippy Owens, dubbed NYC's most powerful book fluencer by Vulture, sits down with the best and buzziest writers from best selling author Kristin Hannah to actress Jennifer Love Hewitt and beyond Stay on top of the latest book releases and hidden gems. Follow Totally booked with Zibi on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite listening app. Polestar's first all electric SUV, Polestar 3 is now on the roads across the US and it's ready to make an impression. At first glance, the aerodynamic exterior creates a sleek technical look, but it really shines when you sit in the driver's seat. Go from 0 to 60 in as little as 4.8 seconds and get an EPA estimated range of up to 350 miles per charge. Book a test drive to discover all that Polestar3 has to [e-mail].

[Gilbert Cruz]

Welcome back. This is the Book Review podcast and I'm Gilbert Cruz. I'm here with director Steven Soderbergh and we're talking about his year in reading. Now, Steven, before we go into a couple of the other sort of reading jags and stretches that you went on in 2023, I have to ask this a personal question. There's a book on here that I believe costs something like $2,000. It is Taschen's Making of the Shining book. Is that the one that I am thinking about?

[Steven Soderbergh]

It is. And when I got that email, because I'm on their list, that was a cat like response. And it's really stunning. It's a really stunning achievement. And I can only hope that at some point in the future they would consider putting out a version in which people can read the actual book that's in the center of this thing, the text, because it's an extraordinary document and something that I think any, certainly any creative person would view as an absolute necessity. It's not. You've just never read anything this granular about a filmmaker's process that defines granular.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Right.

[Steven Soderbergh]

And so to me, it read like a thriller because I just couldn't wrap my mind around this process. But it was really satisfying.

[Gilbert Cruz]

You are a filmmaker. I'm gonna ask you one more question about a film book and then we could talk about non film books. But I am asking because you're sitting in front of me, you're wearing a T shirt, a black T shirt, white type on the T shirt it says a Mike Nichols film. And there's a book you read last year that I believe is coming out in the States, at least in a couple weeks. And this was Cocktails with George and Martha. It's a book about the making of Mike Nichols film, who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? When I was doing my research, there is a full length commentary online somewhere of you and Mike Nichols talking about the making of this movie. Could you tell us a little bit about this book? Because I think people who like Nichols or like Elizabeth Taylor are going to flock to this one.

[Steven Soderbergh]

It's really good. It's so good that I blurbed it, so.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Oh, okay.

[Steven Soderbergh]

There you go. That's the real test. No, it's just. It's a fascinating sort of account of a very unique project coming together at a very interesting time in American cinema culture. And its birth was very complicated, and the people involved were uniquely talented and opinionated. And the studio, as were all studios, was in a place of transition, and so was both scared and excited by what the potential of the project. And it was something that reminded me of how often the process isn't imbued with the kind of intention that this project was. And also, it made me realize too late I should have talked to Mike about this. Or maybe I did, but I don't recall that I did when we recorded that commentary. And what people forget because of the sharpness of the language and the vehemence of the attacks is that it's a love story. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf is a love story about two married people. And that kind of gets sometimes, like, lost in the sort of gunfire of the dialogue. And the book really reminded me of that ultimately.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Now, I think when Colson Whitehead, who you read last year, was on this podcast talking about his most recent book, I referred to a movie called the Hot Rock, which was a 1970s heist movie starring Robert Redford as the character John Dortmunder. It was an amazing pedigree, directed by Peter Yates, who directed Bullitt. It was written by William Goldman. And this past year, you read a couple of Donald E. Westlake books. He's the author of the Dortmunder books. And I know going back through previous years, you've also read several other Westlake books. Now, whether it's Westlake or Richard Osmond who you have read, or other mystery writers, what role do those books play in your reading life?

[Steven Soderbergh]

Well, like most people, there are times when I really just want to be entertained, But I also want to be entertained by somebody who's just really good at their job. And the Hot Rock was always one of my favorite films. It was, without question, the primary influence on the Ocean's films. Our goal was to create the exact atmosphere and sense of humor that was in the Hot Rock.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It's so funny.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Oh, no.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Such a funny movie.

[Steven Soderbergh]

It's just a great, hilarious film. So as soon as I became a Fan of the hot rock I started. Well, who's Donald E. Westlake? And as it turns out lately, which is great for all of us there, has been republished a lot of his work that was out of print for a long time. So almost everything he wrote is now available to read. So when I'm looking, it's another kind of calming thing. Idea that I can reach for is if I'm stressed, I'm like, well, there's always a Donald E. Westlake book that I could dip into to level set. Cause I've got on my iPad, I think I have them all. So they're all, like, in the queue. And I know I can dive in there whenever I want.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Now, this is a technology question, because I know, at least on some of your films and maybe I believe on the Nick, the TV show you worked on with Plyvo, and you're editing Day of or Night of on your iPad. But it sounds like your iPad is also the place where sometimes you're reading. So how are you accomplishing all these things?

[Steven Soderbergh]

Again, the miracle of technology. Like, what's. I look around and I look at, you know, my phone, your laptop, and an iPad in its current iteration. And I don't say this to scare Apple, because believe me, they're scared of me. But I mean, how much better can any of these be ultimately? Aren't we reaching a point of diminishing returns in terms. I mean, I've got the latest iPhone. What else do I need this thing to do, really? I've made movies on them. True. No, I mean, what, you could launch a rocket into space with the technology that's just in one phone? So if I'm them, I'm going, so how do we convince people that once every year, 18 months, they need a new version of this thing? I mean, can you rely on FOMO forever? Is that a business model or. I just. How can this get better? How can that laptop get smaller, more powerful with a better screen? Like, at a certain point, you're there, and so I'm scared for them.

[Gilbert Cruz]

This is. This opinion. This is going to move markets.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Yeah, exactly.

[Gilbert Cruz]

So you're reading on your iPad. You're editing on your iPad. Are you reading when you're on set?

[Steven Soderbergh]

No.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Okay.

[Steven Soderbergh]

No, this is. Like I said, this is complete parallel universe, calm space. And I'll do that at the office or wherever if I know, like, oh, I've got half an hour of nothing.

[Gilbert Cruz]

I love it. You're just fitting it in where you can.

[Steven Soderbergh]

I'll just vaporize for half an hour and read something, and it calms me down.

[Gilbert Cruz]

One of the authors that you went really hard on at the end of the year, you read four or five of her works was Chimamanda Diche. And she's been around for a while. She's been on our top 10 list, many notable lists over the years. What spurred you to read Americana? The thing around your neck. Notes on grief. Half of a yellow sun, Purple hibiscus.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Well, I'd heard about her, so she was on my list of. I've got a. I've just. This just seems too intriguing to ignore. But for whatever reason, I just hadn't gotten there. But I'd been aware of her for a while, so I started with Americana. And look, there are just some people that know how to do this. I don't want to denigrate another artist by saying, you were born to do that, because it implies that there's not a lot of work involved. But the bottom line is her understanding of just pure storytelling matched with a prose style that's just as aerodynamic as can be achieved. Like, there's not a wasted syllable in any of these works. And there's sentences. There's single sentences that you go, well, you could write a whole book about that sentence. It's just. I was completely floored and so burned through everything that I could get really quickly because it was like a drug. Like, it was just great storytelling. And if you're at a dinner party and you're at a table of eight or ten people and you decide to take over the conversation and tell a story, like, you better have a story. Like, everybody's looking at you. Like, this story better have a beginning and a middle and an end. You know what I'm saying? Because, like, okay, everybody's sort of swiveled and they're like, yeah. And so I'm just saying, like, she doesn't have to worry about that. Like, she just understands story at a very deep level, and it's just so pleasurable to be in that. And it really. It reminds me of why reading, and especially reading novels is so important to me. For me. And it's because it's the closest thing to being inside of somebody else's consciousness that you can find beyond movies, beyond any other art form. Like, if you're reading a novel, they are building this world for you in a way that's very close to their experience of that world. And, I mean, we know on a technical level from people being in Fmris while they're reading novels that it lights your brain up in a really unique way. If you're somebody like me who acknowledges the ultimate unknowability of everyone else, this is pretty close to knowing somebody else.

[Gilbert Cruz]

One of the purposes of fiction, and there are many. Some people read just to be entertained, some people read to pass the time. But one of the purposes, it's full circle, I think, aligns with what Sarah Bake was arguing that Montaigne was trying to do with writing essays. And so she argued, and I have a quote here, or paraphrase, that he was writing about himself to create a mirror in which other people recognize their own humanity. So one byproduct of reading about the fictional lives of created characters is the same. By seeing this other person, you see yourself. And by seeing yourself, it reflects your own humanity. It makes you understand other people's humanity. It really. The going into the mind thing accomplishes something that. And you've worked in many artistic formats that other artistic formats just cannot approximate.

[Steven Soderbergh]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's twofold. It's. I feel that too. That's one reaction. And the other is, oh, you feel that? So it's a very sort of intense exchange, or at least I find it to be really intense and intensely pleasurable. But, yeah, she's just, wow. Every sentence about her to me starts with wow.

[Gilbert Cruz]

We have a feature here on the Book Review podcast that I've only done a few times, and I really want to do more this year. That's me putting out my intention into the world, which is someone talking at which you're not gonna doabout the book that they've read most times in their lives. I'm just curious. Do you have a book or two that would fall into that category, a book that you've read multiple times over the course of your life that you return to?

[Steven Soderbergh]

I do. And ironically, it was given to me by Mike Nichols. Oh, wow. It's a book called Pictures from an Institution by Randall Jarrell. Randall Jarrell was a poet, fairly well known, very respected poet and critic post World War II. And he wrote a single perfect novel. And Mike gave it to me. I'd never heard of it. Mike gave it to me, and I was like, wow, that's kind of perfect and hilarious. And he said, yeah, I thought so too.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Tell us a little about it.

[Steven Soderbergh]

It's not a big book, it's not a novella, but it's not a doorstop. And it's about a sort of college, small, kind of pseudo liberal arts College in the 50s, and the people that run it and the people that attend it. And it's very funny and just beautifully observed, beautifully structured. And like I said, it was the only prose he ever wrote. He was primarily a poet and a critic. Geraldine. And it's just a masterpiece. And I never get tired. This is the good part of forgetting everything that you've ever read is every time I read it, I'm like, oh, that line. Like, I'd totally forgotten. So that's a winner. I mean, that book's a real winner.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And as someone who is as productive as you are, how do you feel about the person who, I don't think this is a strawman example, made one great movie or they wrote one book and that book was great. How does it feel? As someone who's done as much as you have?

[Steven Soderbergh]

Oh, I respect that. My reaction to that is not like, can you do it again? It's more, thanks. There's plenty of stuff out there. So if somebody makes one perfect thing and walks away, I'm like, good on you for knowing. Like, yeah, that was it. There's something to be said for that was it. That's not gonna happen with me, but okay.

[Gilbert Cruz]

Stephen, you read 80 plus books last year. There's a lot on here. Again, people should go to your site to check it out and hopefully they'll get some inspiration. But if you had to recommend one book that you really just wanna stump for, which one would it be?

[Steven Soderbergh]

Well, it's gotta be the book. Robert Sapolsky book Determined. This is seismic. This is something that way back when would have been nailed to the door of some institution. It's clear now that we can show our idea of free will. Our sense of making up what we're doing moment to moment is not technically true. Now, the implications of this are enormous, especially in the legal system, especially when you're talking about how to punish people. If at any given moment, any decision you make is essentially determined by everything that has ever happened to you up to that point. Everybody you're descended from, the culture that you've lived in, like, all that stuff. And this sense of you deciding in a moment to do something is just not true. How do we punish people? What does that look like? The creative people that I've talked to about this are extremely unhappy. No creative person wants to be told they didn't think of something. And what I've tried to explain, or what I believe is, look, knowing this for a fact is really useful and I think a helpful way to consider how people behave and why the world is the way that it is. But the bottom line is, even if we know this for a fact, it doesn't feel like that. And it never will feel like that. We will never be conscious of the microscopic delay between us feeling like we decided something and then we do it. I'm not depressed by it. I'm not threatened by it. The biggest effect is that it really makes me view how other people behave differently. I have to understand that I have to look at the totality of them, not just what's happening in this immediate interaction. Like, I really need to take all of their experience on.

[Gilbert Cruz]

And is that something that you think will be useful in your professional life or when it comes to thinking of how characters operate in fiction, in movies that you make?

[Steven Soderbergh]

Oh, absolutely. I think it makes me want to be even more rigorous about the math of a plot so that people are behaving. Cause there's nothing more frustrating or annoying when you're watching something or reading something and something. Some kind of behavior, like, it doesn't make sense. You're like, well, that doesn't make sense. Or that happened because they needed it to happen, not because it was always going to happen. So I think it's another sort of factor to consider when you're building a story out. Like, you better make sure the math of this is clean. You know what I mean? That people are behaving. The way people behave who have this backstory.

[Gilbert Cruz]

It feels like it's related maybe to what Hitchcock used to call icebox logic, which is the thing that maybe doesn't really strike you in the moment as you're watching the movie, but later on at night, you're opening the refrigerator to get a snack and you say, wait a second. Why did that happen in that movie? Or why did that character do that?

[Steven Soderbergh]

Exactly. And the reason he acknowledges that and didn't care about it is in that moment. Like, here's the other reason why the idea of no free will never become a thing is we are inherently irrational. Like, we're not rational beings. Like every other species on this planet has some level of rationality to the way they behave. We really don't. And so what Hitchcock is saying is, while you're watching a piece of art, a story that's being told, he was really gifted in knowing where that line was, of keeping you in it and if necessary, bending things to take you further into it and doing something that you bumped on. Like, if you watch a Hitchcock movie, which, by the way, the reason that we always. That we still watch Hitchcock movies and that they don't feel as dated as some other films is that they're all about guilt. Every Hitchcock movie is about guilt, and guilt's not going anywhere. So what he found was these multiple expressions of that idea. And when he bent the Newtonian world a little bit, he would do it on a sort of physical level, but not on a character level. Like, if you watch the characters in a Hitchcock film, they're consistent. Like, nobody does something that you go, like, he would never do that. She would never do that. Like, it's all. Like I said, the math is very good, but all built on guilt.

[Gilbert Cruz]

God, I feel like we could have an entire podcast just about that. Yeah, we can't. So whether or not free will brought you into the studio or not, I'm glad you're here. Steven Soderbergh, inveterate reader, sometimes filmmaker. It's been a delight to have you on the book Review podcast.

[Steven Soderbergh]

That was fun. Thanks.

[Gilbert Cruz]

That was my conversation with director and voracious reader Steven Soderbergh about his 2023 in books. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. Thanks for listening.