Podcast Summary: The Ezra Klein Show with Salman Rushdie Released on October 18, 2024 | The New York Times Book Review

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Ezra Klein Show, host Ezra Klein engages in an in-depth conversation with the eminent author Salman Rushdie. The discussion delves into Rushdie's illustrious literary career, the profound impact of the infamous fatwa, his recent memoir Meditations after an Attempted Murder, and the broader implications of personal identity in the age of social media and public scrutiny.

Early Career and Literary Success

Salman Rushdie begins by reflecting on his early years as a writer, highlighting the publication of Midnight's Children in 1981 as a pivotal moment that not only brought him literary acclaim but also reconnected him with his Indian roots. He notes:

“The 80s were a very happy time for me. I was doing well...” (06:13)

Rushdie discusses how his success allowed him to transition from a career in advertising to living fully as a writer, embedding himself within a vibrant group of British-based authors who were gaining recognition at the time.

The Satanic Verses Controversy and the Fatwa

A significant portion of the conversation centers around Rushdie's controversial novel The Satanic Verses and the subsequent fatwa issued against him by Ayatollah Khomeini in 1989. Rushdie provides a detailed recount of the novel’s themes, emphasizing its fictional nature and the misinterpretations that fueled outrage:

“I thought, you know, that is what we call fiction. Yeah. Some people took it the wrong way.” (08:08)

He explains that the fatwa was as much a political maneuver within Iran, aimed at rallying support post-Iran-Iraq war, as it was a reaction to his literary work. Rushdie recounts the personal and professional devastation caused by the fatwa, including attacks on his translators and publishers globally:

“The worst thing was the Japanese translator of the book... murdered one night near his office.” (14:50)

Personal Impact and Identity Transformation

Rushdie delves into the psychological and emotional toll of living under constant threat. He discusses how the fatwa not only endangered his life but also altered public perception of him, overshadowing his identity as a writer:

“The biggest damage that the attack on the Satanic Verses did to me was not physical danger. It was the damage to people's thinking about my writing.” (17:15)

He reflects on the erosion of his public persona, shifting from a "funny writer" to a figure perceived as dark and theological due to the violent attacks, both actual and symbolic.

The Concept of the Shadow Self

A central theme in Rushdie's memoir is the idea of the "shadow self"—a fragmented version of one's identity that becomes more real in the public sphere than the individual themselves. Inspired by Hans Christian Andersen’s story "The Shadow," Rushdie explains:

“A thing that happens more and more often... people believe the shadow and don't believe the self.” (05:39)

This concept elucidates how misinformation and distorted perceptions can create alternate realities about an individual, often leading to dangerous misconceptions and actions against them.

The 2022 Chautauqua Attack

Rushdie recounts the harrowing experience of being attacked during an event at the Chautauqua Institution in Western New York in August 2022. Detailing the suddenness and violence of the knife attack, he shares his immediate psychological response:

“The attack was a knife attack. And you write that a gunshot is action at a distance, but a knife attack is a kind of intimacy.” (44:25)

He explores the attacker’s background, highlighting the transformation from a seemingly ordinary individual to someone capable of carrying out such violence, and the unsettling realization that the attack stemmed from distorted beliefs about him.

Social Media and the Modern Identity Crisis

In discussing the creation of false selves in the digital age, Rushdie draws parallels between his own experiences and the pervasive effects of social media on personal identity:

“I've often thought that if these things had existed in 1989, I would have been in far more danger...” (28:07)

He critiques how platforms like Twitter and Facebook can amplify misrepresentations and enable mob mentality, leading to real-world consequences akin to those he has faced. Rushdie emphasizes the destabilizing effect of digital echo chambers on individuals' sense of self.

Reflections on Apology and Public Perception

The conversation touches upon the cultural shift regarding apologies and accountability. Rushdie expresses skepticism about the efficacy of apologies in contemporary discourse:

“Apologizing seems to me to give people the license to believe that it was all justified in the first place.” (34:58)

He contrasts this with figures like Donald Trump, who maintain their narratives without conceding mistakes, thereby preserving their influence and destabilizing communal trust.

Resilience and Continued Literary Pursuits

Despite the ongoing threats to his safety and reputation, Rushdie emphasizes his commitment to writing and living authentically:

“I wanted the priority now is to lead a life of loving and being loved.” (56:14)

He discusses the therapeutic aspect of his memoir, aiming to reclaim his narrative and assert his identity beyond the shadows of past controversies and attacks.

Book Recommendations

Concluding the episode, Rushdie shares his literary recommendations, showcasing his appreciation for classic and contemporary works:

1. Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes - Celebrated as the first great masterpiece in the novel form.
2. 100 Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez - Lauded for its joyful and magical realism.
3. The Trial or The Castle by Franz Kafka - Representing the profound influence of Kafka’s work on modern literature.

Notable Quotes

• “The shadow takes over the life of the man.” — Salman Rushdie (05:35)

• “The shadow of the attack was transposed onto the person being attacked.” — Salman Rushdie (20:55)

• “Shamelessness is the great public weapon of our time.” — Salman Rushdie (35:59)

• “I have a very unstable concept of the person we are.” — Salman Rushdie (31:10)

Conclusion

Salman Rushdie's conversation with Ezra Klein offers profound insights into the intersections of literature, personal identity, public perception, and the transformative impacts of both political actions and digital culture. Rushdie's resilience and introspection provide a poignant exploration of maintaining one's authentic self amidst external pressures and evolving societal dynamics.

For a deeper understanding of the topics discussed, listeners are encouraged to read Salman Rushdie's memoir Meditations after an Attempted Murder and explore his extensive body of work.