The Sunday Special: The Books We Read in School

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Sunday Special: The Books We Read in School"

Podcast: The Book Review (The New York Times)
Host: Gilbert Cruz
Guests: Sadie Stein (Editor), Louis Sachar (Author)
Date: October 3, 2025
Episode Theme: Reflections on childhood and school reading experiences, discussing which books shaped the panelists and today’s students, and sharing book recommendations for young readers.

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Episode Overview

This episode features a deep, nostalgic, and often humorous conversation among host Gilbert Cruz, NYT Book Review editor Sadie Stein, and acclaimed children’s and now adult novelist Louis Sachar. They reflect on the books they read during their youth—at home and in school—and how those selections shaped their reading lives. The panel also reacts to a new study detailing which books are still mainstays in English classes, debates the value and challenges of “the canon,” and swaps recommendations for cultivating a lifelong love of reading, both for kids and adults.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Childhood Reading Memories

• Teachers Reading Aloud: All three guests highlight the formative power of being read to in class, especially in fourth grade.

  • Louis Sachar recalls his teacher reading Charlotte’s Web aloud:

    “I cried in class at the end. But it was funny, it was emotional. I was completely caught up in the story...That’s really what I think started my love of reading.” (01:55)

  • Sadie Stein emphasizes the immersive effect:

    “My teacher...read aloud to us every day and we would knit and do the various handicrafts we did in elementary school. And it was just incredible.” (03:12)

• Early Favorites and Series:

  • Sadie’s obsession began with the Betsy Tacy books by Maud Hart Lovelace—stories about a girl growing up that mature with the reader.
  • Gilbert reveals he became a reader partly due to movies:

    "I became obsessed with these popular fiction authors. And then that led into just wanting to read all the time." (05:11)

• Transition to Reading for Pleasure:

  • Louis Sachar didn’t fall in love with reading until high school, through writers like Vonnegut, Kesey, and Salinger. He describes reading Nine Stories with a friend and parsing its mysteries together. (05:49)

2. Writing (and Choosing) for Young Readers

• On Hooking Young Readers:

  • Sachar's approach:

    “I think it has to hook me first...And I don’t talk down to the kids. I respect the reader’s intelligence and humanity, even if it’s a nine year old.” (07:20)

• Literary Depth for Kids:

  • Sadie Stein (on kids' books):

    “You have to be so skilled to appeal to children and to give them credit for humor and dignity and deep feelings and a capacity for menace, like Roald Dahl does.” (08:39)

  • Both stress that series books are an immersive entry point for reluctant readers.

3. The School Canon: What’s Still Taught

• Top 10 Most-Assigned Titles 2025 vs. 1989:

  • (10:20–10:44) Romeo and Juliet, The Great Gatsby, The Crucible, Macbeth, Of Mice and Men, To Kill a Mockingbird, Night, Hamlet, Fahrenheit 451, Frankenstein.
  • The conversation reflects on the difficulty of Shakespeare and the importance of performance:

    “The best way I found to read Shakespeare was actually...to play a Shakespeare recording of a play as I read it. And then it made some sense to me, but otherwise I couldn’t get through them.” —Louis Sachar (10:44)

  • Sadie credits good teachers and acting out plays for making Shakespeare fun (11:10).

• Difficulty and Accessibility:

  • Universal struggle with Faulkner, e.g., The Sound and the Fury:

    "I can’t understand why that would be [assigned]...if you’re trying to get people to turn them on to reading." —Sachar (22:19)
    “I was made to read it before I was ready to understand it or to engage with it.” —Cruz (23:48)

• Contrasts in Experience:

  • Steinbeck books sparked strong emotional reactions:

    “I found them so incredibly upsetting that I have never read them again. And I think anytime you feel a strong emotion is not a bad thing.” —Stein (14:22)

  • Catcher in the Rye left an indelible mark on Sadie Stein:

    "...to treat it as something kind of immature or jeune...does the book a real disservice. He managed to capture something so real and so essential about being an alienated teenager.” (18:37)

4. Audiobooks & Reading Inclusivity

• Audiobooks as Legitimate Reading:

  • Both Stein and Sachar argue for integrating audiobooks into school curricula for accessibility. Sachar finds listening as powerful as reading, though he can’t listen to his own due to inflection differences (26:43).
  • Cruz notes the need to destigmatize audiobooks:

    “Anything that engages the literary mind...is valid. And so audiobooks are great. I listen to them all the time.” (27:28)

• Danger of Assigned Reading Turning Kids Off:

  • Cruz:

    “The scariest thing is...if you are made to read too many books that you don’t like, it will turn you off from reading altogether.” (28:13)

  • Stein:

    “I’m so glad to have...read certain books in school...I just wouldn’t have had the discipline to take up Faulkner or Joyce as an adult.” (28:31)

5. Fostering Reading for Life

• Sachar on Reading’s Purpose:

  • "Reading has enriched my life tremendously...especially when I write for young people, is to try to turn them on to reading and show them that reading can be fun and engaging and thought provoking and all that." (29:12)
  • He shares the joy of hearing from adults whose reading lives started with his books (29:59).

• The Power of Book Series:

  • Stein:

    "I think kids love a series and I think it’s immersive and propulsive in a way that standalone books aren’t always." (30:28)

  • Cruz and Stein share how their children are now hooked by series (Dogman, Mysterious Benedict Society, Last Kids on Earth, etc.) (31:21).

• Falling Pleasure Reading Rates:

  • Cruz shares recent stats: only 16% of Americans read for pleasure each year (32:38).
  • Both guests stress the importance of offering books that individuals relate to, normalizing pleasure reading, and letting kids see adults read. (33:23)

6. Book Recommendations for Young Readers

(35:01–40:30)

• Louis Sachar:

  • The Giver by Lois Lowry
  • Bridge to Terabithia and The Great Gilly Hopkins by Katherine Paterson

  “Both those books I found very moving.” (35:44)

• Sadie Stein:

  • Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark by Alvin Schwartz
  • Where the Red Fern Grows, Witch of Blackbird Pond, Sounder, Number the Stars, From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler

  “If you are drawn at all to the supernatural and we’re entering that time of year, nothing better.” (36:37)

• Gilbert Cruz:

  • The Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster (read with his son)

  “It is so clever and the wordplay is incredibly amusing...can’t wait to read it again.” (37:22)

  • Small Spaces (Katherine Arden; for older kids who like creepy books):

    “Some very creepy stuff. In the first one there’s a character named the Smiling Man. Which I feel like that’s all I have to say.” (38:57)

• Other Mentioned Favorites:

  • Ramona the Pest by Beverly Cleary (“so incredibly funny and sensitive”—Stein, 39:42)
  • Ms. Nelson Is Missing by Harry Allard, illustrated by James Marshall
  • The Dot and the Line by Norton Juster

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Reading Aloud:

  “Being read to, I think, is the most important thing.” —Louis Sachar (34:19)

• On Audiobooks:

  “Anything that engages the literary mind, whether you’re reading with your eyes or listening with your ears, is valid.” —Gilbert Cruz (27:28)

• On the Frustrations of Assigned Reading:

  “I can’t understand why that would be [assigned]…if you’re trying to get people to turn them on to reading.” —Louis Sachar on Faulkner (22:19)

• On Book Series:

  “Series are sometimes a good device. I think whatever shows you that there’s additional lore...is terrific.” —Sadie Stein (31:21)

• On Timelessness of Classic Books:

  “I had read so many books up to that point, but I don’t know that I’d have read a book that was just beautiful...that’s how I felt about [The Great Gatsby].” —Gilbert Cruz (21:06)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:42 – Childhood reading memories, teachers reading aloud
• 05:49 – Sachar’s turn to loving books in high school
• 07:20 – What makes a book appealing to kids (Sachar’s “write for yourself” approach)
• 10:44 – Discussion of the current most-assigned school books
• 13:11 – Reflections on Steinbeck and the importance of author-reader connection
• 17:57 – Panelists share the books they loved in school
• 22:08 – Books they struggled with (Sound and the Fury, Faulkner)
• 26:43 – The value of audiobooks in education and for reluctant readers
• 29:59 – Sachar’s reflections on hearing from now-adult fans
• 31:21 – The power of book series for kids
• 32:38 – Drop in pleasure reading: discussion of causes and remedies
• 35:01–40:30 – Book recommendations for young readers

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Tone & Style

The episode is warm, literary, and conversational, mixing nostalgia, humor, and honest reflection. The guests swap memories and opinions with affection and a gentle authority. The tone leans bookish but accessible, with a recurring celebration of the joys (and frustrations) of reading as a child and the lifelong journey into literature.

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, charting its major topics and most compelling insights, while preserving the panel’s original tone and key direct quotes for maximum context and engagement.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello, I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review Podcast. It's been a very busy autumn, partly, of course, because every fall is full of big books, but also because I have been hosting a Sunday edition of the Daily. I hope you have listened to a couple of those episodes. This week we're going to run an episode of that show from early September in which my fellow editor here at the Book Review, Sadie Stein, joins me in conversation with Louis Sachar, author of the famed children's series Sideways Stories from Wayside School. This year he published his first novel for adults, the Magician of Tiger Castle. Let's go to that conversation. Now, given that we are an author and two editors, I think it's fair to say that we're all book lovers now as adults, as grownups. But you know, Sadie and Lewis, did you always love books from the beginning, from the time that you were a young child?

[C]

I read a lot as a child. You know, the Scholastic Book Fairs would come through and I'd always order two or three books. I don't know that I loved reading. The one book that stands out was actually our teacher read to us out loud when I was in fourth grade, which surprised me. I didn't know teachers still read books aloud in fourth grade. But she read Charlotte's Web and I just loved it. The bad part was I cried in class at the end. But it was funny, it was emotional. I was completely caught up in the story, wanted to find out what happened next. That's really what I think started my love of reading. I think it's so important for people to read to kids because I remember nothing else about fourth grade except our teacher reading that book.

[B]

I think the same thing is true of me in fourth grade. I think I remember a teacher reading maybe island of the Lost, island of.

[D]

The Lost Blue Dolphins, island of the.

[B]

Blue Dolphins or the Secret Garden. I just remember sitting and having a teacher read to me, which can be like a magical experience when your teacher's just holding an entire class wrapped with a story.

[D]

Well, it's funny that you both brought up fourth grade, because when I was thinking about this subject, I realized that was the year that was most magical, both reading to myself and having the teacher read. And my teacher, Mary Neal, was a really gifted reader and I remember she read from the mixed up files of Mrs. Bazilie Frankweiler. And she read aloud to us every day and we would knit and do the various handicrafts we did in elementary school. And it was just incredible, I should say. I was not an early reader. And I think what really started me loving it was the first Betsy Tacey book. Then I was just kind of off to the races. And I remember kind of the ages of 8 to 11 as just incessant, indiscriminate, immersive reading all the time, constantly.

[B]

Sorry, before we go any further, what are the Betsy Tacy books?

[D]

The Betsy Tacy books were written by Mod Hart Lovelace. I think she wrote them in the 1940s. She started by telling her young daughter, Marian Lovelace, about her childhood growing up in Mankato, Minnesota, and turn them into this series of children's books which start when she's five, her fifth birthday and end when she is married. And the level of the writing ages as she ages. And they're magical.

[B]

You see, when I said at the beginning about how well read Sadie Stein is, this is exactly what I was talking about.

[D]

Oh, I think you'll find if you bring this up, people who love these books are passionate about them.

[B]

Lewis, had you ever heard of these books?

[C]

I never have, which is amazing.

[B]

Me neither. I became sort of an obsessive reader, I feel like right around 10 or 11. And it unfortunately was because of movies. I would watch a movie and then I would want to read the book on which it was based. And so Stephen King, who I continue to maintain an obsession with, Tom Clancy, John Grisham, Michael Crichton, Anne Rice, all these people. I would see Jurassic park or Interview with a Vampire or the Firm, and I would read the book. And I became obsessed with these popular fiction authors. And then that led into just wanting to read all the time. I always had a book in my hands. Lewis, I feel like I read somewhere that you didn't become a big reader until high school.

[C]

Right. You know, I was in high school in the early 1970s and, you know, people, when people, you know, talk about those times, they focus on the Counterculture and the drugs and the music. But people forget were some of the leaders of that, or at least among me and my friends, some of the people we most admired were people like Kurt Vonnegut and ken Kesey and J.D. salinger. And that's when I really started loving books. I remember a friend of mine and I. I don't remember how we started on this, but we each had a copy of Nine Stories by J.D. salinger. This wasn't through any class. We'd each just read a story a night and then talk about it the next day. Because there was so much to try to understand in those stories that just. I mean, like, one story ended about with a person having kept a chicken sandwich in his pocket for two weeks or something. And it's like, what did that have to do with the story? And, you know, things like that. And I just loved it.

[B]

I'm curious, Louis, as someone who writes for young people or has written for young people, have you been able to develop over these many decades a theory about what hooks a kid? Like, what makes a book or a story particularly appealing for a young person?

[C]

I think it has to hook me first. And so I write what I like and I don't talk down to the kids. And I respect the reader's intelligence and humanity, even if it's a nine year old. They like the same things I like and don't feel like they're being preached to.

[D]

Yeah, you know, I have a young kid just starting kindergarten this week, in fact, and so I'm very deep in kids literature right now. And so many of these books just hold up so well. I mean, you mentioned E.B. white, which has been a huge hit in our house. And those weren't books I was that involved with as a kid. Cause I never. I had this idea that I didn't like animal stories and I didn't like horse books. Like, if a kid met a horse, I was out. But reading them now, he's a genius. I mean, those books are great. And like, I've been rereading Natalie Babbitt. Amazing. I mean, these are fantastic writers. I think you have to be so skilled to appeal to children and to give them credit for humor and dignity and deep feelings and a capacity for menace, like Roald Dahl does.

[B]

I mean, it is the thing that people tell you, maybe before you become a parent, when you are perhaps a little bit unclear about how to interact with a child or talk to a child. It's just like, just talk to them. They're a person. Just because they're younger. Doesn't mean you have to speak down to them or use a certain type of language. It's just talk to them and they'll talk back. I feel like, Louis, what you're saying is just write for them. Try to inhabit their perspective and they will respond to it, which I think they have with your books.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's. I think that's us as young readers. I want to talk a little bit about being a reader in school, because recently a study came out that in addition to many other things, compare the books that are taught now in 2025 to middle and high school students with the books that were taught to middle and high school students in 1989, which was the last time sort of a study of this type was undertaken. And six of the 10 books were exactly the same. I'd love to quickly run through that list and get your thoughts on it. So let me go through all 10 here. Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare, the Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald. The Crucible by Arthur Miller, Macbeth by William Shakespeare. Sadie's putting up very. She's like, yes. Shakespeare. Thumbs up. Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck, To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee. Night by Elie Wiesel, Hamlet by Shakespeare, Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury, and Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. So what do we think about these 10 books, three of them being Shakespeare plays, being the books that are most commonly taught to middle and high schoolers as like, the backbone of an English literature education? Are these books that you remember reading? Some of them in middle and high school.

[C]

I found Shakespeare very difficult to read. The best way I found to read Shakespeare was actually. I mean, this was before computers and everything we've got now. I'd go into the library where you can get records and sit in one of these rooms and play a Shakespeare recording of a play as I read it. And then it made some sense to me, but otherwise I couldn't get through them.

[D]

See, I loved the Shakespeare section every year. And I think it really depends on having a very good teacher. And I had a couple, and I remember those. Not all of them, but a couple of those experiences, especially Romeo and Juliet being a way that, you know, first of all, we acted them out. People got very into it. And then at the end of each, we would get to watch the movie adaptation, whether that be the Zeffirelli or the Roman Polanski, Macbeth or.

[B]

So they showed you the most inappropriate versions of these stories.

[D]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that maybe this is part of why I have such positive memories. But I got to play the nurse when we read Romeo and Juliet, got very into it.

[B]

I mean, Sadie, I feel like you're saying a version of what Lewis is saying, which is like, you also have to sort of see this performed, whether it's. Or hear it perform, whether it's list listening to a record or seeing Leonardo DiCaprio play Romeo. Shakespeare is hard, particularly with this heightened language, which is both beautiful and difficult. I feel like for many kids of all ages, it is something that is in many ways the backbone of a Western civilization, literature, education. And it is also extremely difficult to get into. So I feel like I fall in between the two of you, which is where I sort of grew to appreciate it. But I also, on first sort of experience, it put me off. It is hard to get into, but I can understand why many kids be like, this is not for me. ChatGPT please summarize the plot of Julius Caesar. I'm curious about some of the other books on this list and whether or not either of you recall reading them in class. John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men, for example, you have. I remember reading Grapes of Wrath, but I feel like Of Mice and Men is one that is so commonly read that when you talk about George and Lenny, people get the reference.

[C]

I remember reading Of Mice and Men, and I liked it. In fact, Steinbeck is still one of my favorite writers. Grapes of Wrath, east of Eden. Yeah. I just think one of the things I love about writing the reading as well, I mean, is the connection I feel with the author, that you're getting inside this author's mind. You're appreciating his wit and his outlook on life. And I feel that's lost a little bit if you're just focusing on the plot. And I think that's what also bothers me about Shakespeare, for example, is it's so hard to relate to him as a person because the language is so foreign to us that you lose that, and now it's just about the plot.

[B]

Sadie, did you feel that way about some of these books here? I mean, there is, you know, we had Cliff's Notes, then we didn't have Wikipedia. Right. But you feel like there was a way to cheat class by saying, oh, I know what that book is about. But really, your teachers try to get you to engage with the themes and the language.

[D]

Of course, the thing about Cliff's Notes is they, by today's standards, actually took quite a bit of time and effort. Like you still had to read the summaries because I remember I did it once actually in college, I'm not proud to say, with the leather stocking tails, which I just, I don't know. For whatever reason I didn't want to do it or hadn't made the time. So I Cliff's notes and it really wasn't that much of a time saver, but they made them look so enticingly forbidden with those yellow and black covers. I guess the teachers could see them. I do remember reading Of Mice and Men and it made I found it almost traumatic. I remember that I think we were only freshmen, but I have not really read Steinbeck since we read that and the Pearl and I found them so incredibly upsetting that I have never read them again. And I think anytime you feel a strong emotion is not a bad thing. And that one in particular was easy to read. And I remember it was one of the books that everyone in the class kind of got involved with, which wasn't by any means always the case. And I'm thinking here of A Farewell to Arms, which was a particular dud in my freshman English class.

[B]

On that note, let's take a quick break and when we come back I want to talk a little bit more specifically about the books we loved and maybe the ones we didn't love so much when we were in school.

[A]

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[B]

Welcome back. This is the Book Review Podcast, and I'm Gilbert Cruz. I'm joined this week by Sadie Stein and author Louis Sachar. So, Sadie, was there a book that you read in school that you just remember really, really loving?

[D]

Oh, seventh grade, we read Catcher in the Rye, and I absolutely loved it. I mean, you mentioned Nine Stories, and we read that later on, and that was another gut punch. The Laughing man in particular. I mean, banana fish, Esme. Every single one of those.

[B]

Tell me about Catcher in the Rye. Why? Because I feel like that is sort of a prototypical high school text. I don't know. I remember reading it when I was in high school, and it was one that resonated. And then now, if you try to talk about it as an adult, I feel like there are many people that look down upon it. But why did it sort of resonate with you at the time?

[D]

I think it's. I don't love all of Salinger's work is the Truth, but Catherine the Rye I think, really holds up, and I think it does the book a real disservice to treat it as something kind of immature or je. Jeune, because, you know, he was an adult man, a war veteran, writing this book, and he managed to capture something so real and so essential about being an alienated teenager. And when we read it in class, we also did kind of a nifty thing where we were each given maps of New York City and we would trace his path around, which made it really immersive and fun.

[B]

Lewis, did you read Catcher in the Rye in school again?

[C]

I don't know that it was assigned in a classroom. It might have been too controversial. But, yeah, it's one of my favorite books. And that, along with Nine Stories and all of Salinger's work, actually is why I became a writer. Him and Kurt Vonnegut, you know how unpretentious he was and how when you read J.D. salinger, you have a sense of who he is and the way he saw the world. And it was very relatable and funny and poignant, and that's what I tried to emulate with my books.

[D]

Gilbert, what were the books that you loved in High school.

[B]

There was a lot that I didn't love, but there was one book in particular that I loved. It is the most basic book, and I apologize for admitting it. The book was the Great Gatsby by Fitzgerald, which I have read possibly more than any other book. It helps that it's pretty short. I first read it in high school and I remember the edition, the Scriptner sort of trade paperback edition with those.

[D]

The blue and white one.

[B]

The blue and white one. But then it had the eyes on the COVID of the original edition and I just. I fell in love with it.

[D]

I don't. Why would you ever be embarrassed about loving the Great Gatsby, which is so good if you actually reread it? I would say anyone who is critical of that, have they reread it in the last 10 years. And the movies don't count because it is unadaptable, in my opinion. I think it's because the language is too beautiful. I don't know. But yeah, that one touched me a lot.

[B]

I had read so many books up to that point, but I don't know that I'd have read a book that was just beautiful. It was just beautifully written. I definitely read books with better plots. But the lyricism of Fitzgerald, which some people would say is an over sentimentality, I would not. I was just like, oh, this is how you can write as well. You can write a book that has memorable characters, a memorable setting, and also has passages that make you swoon. As a young person, that's how I felt about that book. And I continue to think that book holds up. It's gorgeous. That's one of the things I think that being forced to. Maybe forced is not the right word. That's so negative. Being made to read books in school can do. Sometimes you fall in love with a book, even if there are a ton of other things that you that don't resonate with you or that you sort of hold at an arm's distance. And I would love to talk about some of those books as well. Louis, is there a book that sticks out in your mind as one that you really struggled with in school?

[C]

One of the books I remembered not liking was the Sound and the Fury by William.

[B]

I'm pointing at my screen right now. Please talk about Faulkner.

[C]

So now that I'm an adult and well read, I thought, well, maybe I'll try. Prior to the podcast, I'm going to try to read the Sound and the Fury again. And boy, that is very difficult reading. It's the first. I don't know, 60 pages are written by someone who is mentally challenged. And, you know, you just have this vague sense of who all the characters are, but you're not sure. And, you know, and there's. I think there's two people named Quentin, one female, one male, and the character's name, somewhere in the middle, has changed from Maurice to Benjamin. It's a long. It's a lot to read without knowing what's going on. So I've just finished that part. I could never. That's as far as I got. But I can't understand why that would be. If you're trying to get people to turn them on to reading and to authors, I don't understand why they'd ever assign that book.

[B]

Sadie, were you at all into Faulkner in school?

[D]

I actually was kind of put off by my high school experiences with Faulkner. I mean, I persevered in college, and the only way I got through it was by taking college seminars where, you know, it was really broken down for us and done in very digestible chunks. I couldn't have done it alone.

[B]

I have a similar Faulkner experience being made to read it in a high school English class as I lay dying as well. And just. I was like, I have no idea what's happening. And it's possible that I never want to read this gentleman again. I was made to read it before I was ready to understand it or to engage with it. Sort of the opposite of the Great Gatsby, like I or others were primed at that age, or the Catcher in the Rye to receive and understand this book. Faulkner maybe is not the guy for high school.

[C]

There are so many engaging stories and so many authors that I think if it was taught in high school that students would relate to. And like we read the Idiot in high School by Dostoevsky, which is this difficult Russian literature. But I just remember Loving was engaging and gripping. And I've since gone on and read lots of books by Dostoevsky, just like I've read lots of books by Steinbeck after reading probably the Mice and Men or maybe Tortilla Flats. But like you said with Faulkner, it just turned off any interest I had in reading.

[D]

Oh, I thought of kind of an opposite situation. I remember reading. We read quite a bit of. It was beloved that we first read in high school, Toni Morrison. And that was such a good high school book. I think we were juniors and we weren't too young. It was adult themes, but it was electrifying to read. But my brother always found it a lot easier to listen to books than to read them, especially long ones. And so we also had the audiobook of, I think, Song of Solomon in his case, and that was fantastic. I think one thing I'm coming around to in this conversation is that more audiobooks should be worked into the school curriculum for people who find that easier. And I think for certain books, it might be the way to go. I thought about my brother a lot in this context because he wasn't someone who really liked to read. I only remember him really reading the Muggsy Bogues memoir In the Land of Giants from his Charlotte Hornets era. He also liked Matt Christopher baseball books, which I'd read a lot.

[C]

I read those.

[D]

Yeah. I think. I think getting kids who don't think they like to read to read things that are adjacent to their interests, I think it's great. I think whatever shows you that there's additional lore and secret knowledge and a different kind of experience of something you love is terrific. But, yeah, audiobooks, definitely.

[C]

Yeah, I agree. I mean, to me, whether I listen to it or read it, it's the same. It engages in the same way to me, although it's funny because I can never listen to the audio readings of my books because every sentence is accentuated just a little differently than the way I had in mind when I wrote it. And so it's constantly jarring me when I'm listening to my audiobooks.

[D]

So have you ever gotten through a full audiobook of one of your own works?

[C]

No, I've never even got. I mean, there are some that.

[B]

Sorry, sorry. Narrators of old Lewis Sacker books, and.

[C]

People tell me they love the audio version. So it's, you know, it's just my own idiosyncrasy.

[B]

Brief digression here, just to underscore, Sadie, what you said, which is the importance of audiobooks, which I feel like is something that for many readers is a big part of their lives and still continues to have a bit of a stigma to it. If you're listening to a book, you're not really reading it. I think you agree anything that engages the literary mind, whether you're reading with your eyes or listening with your ears, is valid. And so audiobooks are great. I listen to them all the time. I do think, to your bigger point, the thing that you're talking about is this push pull that every lifelong reader experiences, which is between what they are told to read, what they are made to read, what they are forced to read, whether it's in school or by your parents, and what you actually end up loving and how sometimes those things work together and sometimes those two things can be in opposition. Right. The scariest thing is the idea that if you are made to read too many books that you don't like, it will turn you off from reading altogether.

[D]

This is the kind of thing that as a kid you're never going to feel or believe and you'd hate hearing. But I'm so glad to have, I won't say crossed off my list to have read certain books in school, been forced to read them, which I then didn't feel were glaring omissions in my reading list later. I just wouldn't have had the discipline to take up Faulkner or Joyce or. As an adult, I think there is a lot to be said for being made to do things in school. Like I'm not doing math on my own. I'm glad I was forced to learn.

[C]

Yeah, I think reading has enriched my life tremendously. And so I think it's important to try to pass that along. And that's partly of what I do with my writing, is just try to, especially when I write for young people, is to try to turn them on to reading and show them that reading can be fun and engaging and thought provoking and all that. You can only do so much, but I think you want to try to reach as many people as you can and say, yeah, reading is worth doing.

[B]

Lewis, you're just back from a tour for your new book, the Magician of Tiger Castle, and I have to imagine that you've had a lot of fans, a lot of adult fans talking to you about reading your books when they were young.

[C]

Yeah, I've. I've just come back from a book tour with the new book and one of the things that's been really heartwarming about it was I've heard from, from many adults who told me that mine were the books that got them to start reading. And now they're reading those same books to their kids or to their students. And it's been just to hear them talk about what the books meant to them is. Is humbling.

[D]

One thing I remember really loving about Wayside in particular was that it was a series. And I think kids love a series and I think it's immersive and propulsive in a way that standalone books aren't always. I think it creates a sense of community. I think it creates a sense of anticipation. Kids who think they don't like to read, I think series are sometimes a good device. My own little boy happens to be a reader, but he got really into these books. You know, Dogman. And I see the same thing is happening every time we're in a bookstore. He's kind of going into a corner and like, mainlining as much Dogman as he can get in. And now they're considered a treat to him. And so there's something to be said for that, too.

[B]

I agree. I think series books are sort of an entry point in many ways. My kid never read the Dogman books. He never read the Diary of a Wimpy Kid books, which are also incredibly popular. But he was into the mysterious Benedict Society books. He is into the Last Kids on Earth books, which is sort of these sort of post apocalyptic zombie young reader books that also have images in them, although they're not graphic novels. Desmond Cole, Ghost Patrol is a series that he was also super into. So I think that idea, as you say, Sadie, of anticipation is something that helps kids. They want something to look forward to. They want to look forward to the next Marvel movie. They also want to look forward to the next Percy Jackson book. I'm very curious before we get into some recommendations not to go super dark, but there was just another report released a few weeks ago that talked about how pleasure reading in America has dropped to just a frightening low over the past many decades. So something like only 16% of Americans now read for pleasure over the course of any given year. That's a combination of books, magazines, et cetera. I was both surprised and not surprised. I was both depressed. And also, I took it as a given that that's maybe where we were in this country at this point. I wonder if either of you had similar or different reactions.

[C]

Yeah, again, that goes to what I've been saying, that in school, you just give them books that they can see, and it's different for different people. Obviously, books that you relate to and realize, oh, this is really special, to connect with this writer and be a part of this world. I think that's important that we continue to do that.

[D]

I do feel like when you find that gateway, there's sort of no going back. I think if kids are reading, that's important because it shows them that it's accessible and fun. I think the kind of addictive Labubu quality of certain series, which maybe are, like, weirdly short and seem very commercialized and seem to be kind of cranked out by factories rather than thoughtful writers. I don't believe in guilty pleasures. And I think the more we can remove certain things that, as you say, have stigmas around them, the better. I think reading Period is good. I know it's not always possible, but I think if they can see you reading physical books, I think if that is normalized around them, I think that's important.

[C]

And also being read to. Being read to, I think, is the most important thing.

[D]

And, you know, it's good for parents and caretakers, too, quite frankly. We read aloud every night. I am reading books about animals for the first time in my life. It's not what I would choose, but you know what? I'm learning a lot. I know so much more about dinosaurs than I ever did. I've come to finally appreciate Charlotte's Web, Trumpet of the Swan. I mean, so we all can learn from this process.

[B]

I love the idea, Sadie, that it's going to be your child that finally gets you into horse books.

[D]

Don't tempt fate.

[B]

Okay, well, let's move away from the dark towards the light. I'd love to ask each of you for one or two book recommendations. I'm looking for books that you think would be worth the young reader's time. Something that they'd really connect to.

[C]

Lewis, I should preface this by saying my own daughter is 38. I used to go to do a lot of school visits as a visiting authority, but I haven't done that for like 20 years. So the authors I know are the ones who wrote between 20 and 30 or 40 years ago. And the ones I really liked were Lois Lowry, who did the Giver, and Katherine Patterson. Bridge to Terabithia.

[D]

Bridge to Terabithia.

[C]

And also the Great Gilly Hopkins. Both those books I found very moving.

[D]

Great Gilly Hopkins. I'm so glad you mentioned it. I feel like it doesn't get mentioned enough because. But that was a formative book for me, too. And for those who don't know, it's about a girl who's in the foster care system and isn't necessarily an immediately likable heroine. But it deals with adult themes and themes of alienation and certain social things which. I haven't read it lately, but you can tell me if it's dated. But I remember loving is the wrong word because it was in some ways a hard read, but finding it incredibly impactful at about 10.

[B]

Okay, so, Sadie, what are your recommendations?

[D]

I mean, where do we get. You've got where the Red Fern Grows, Bridgesia, Witch of Blackbird Pond, Sounder Number the Stars. Mix up files of Mrs. Besley Frankweiler, Jennifer Hackney, Macbeth, William McKinley and Mia Elizabeth. But if I had to give it to one, it has got to be Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark by Alvin Schwartz, which is a book I know Gilbert also enjoyed as a child. I think it is short format. It's spooky. It's fun. If you are drawn at all to the supernatural and we're entering that time of year, nothing better. And you will have made In Ghosts a friend for life.

[B]

I obviously could not love this recommendation. More Sadie this book scared the crap out of me when I was a kid, particularly the illustrations. I don't even know if they use the illustrations anymore. That's how scary they were. I love them. I want to throw in the mix a book that I read with my son a couple of years ago and which we both loved. It's another classic. This is the Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster. And the reason I bring this up is because I had never read it before. It was not read to me when I was a child and it was not one that I had read on my own. And it is so clever and the wordplay is incredibly amusing. The illustrations by Jules Pfeiffer are I think iconic in the right use of that word. Not in the way that everyone seems to use it these days, which is incorrectly. I can't wait to read it again. And I would actually like to read it. My son, who's a little bit older again because it was such a delightful one. So the Phantom Tollbooth.

[C]

I love the Phantom Toll Booth as well.

[B]

Did you read it when you were.

[C]

I read it in high school and he has another book that's very fun just called the Dot in the Line. And it's just this picture book about a. It's about a line being in love with a dot and the dot ends up falling for a squiggle. And it's all about, you know, how the line could do so much more than a squiggle. And it starts doing all these elaborate geometric shapes where all the squiggle could do is squiggle.

[B]

I've never heard of that one and I'm going to rush home and pick that one up.

[D]

Me too.

[B]

I would love to mention one more book just to sort of echo your early recommendations of scary stories to tell in the dark. This is for kids that are slightly older. It is a series written by Katherine Arden that begins with a book called Small Spaces. It stars an 11 year old girl, her name is Ollie. She develops a group of friends and they have to deal with creepy stuff over four books. Some very creepy stuff. In the first one there's a character named the Smiling Man. Which I feel like that's all I have to say. And you'll know whether or not your child is prepared to read a book like that. Mine, who is again now 11, read these when he was nine or so, but he really sort of, he's read them several times and they're quite well written.

[D]

I mean, I have all this to look forward to. I was thinking about good back to school books too. And we're starting kindergarten, so we just read Ramona the Pest and he loved it. And that book is so good. If you haven't read that one specifically in a long time. The way she gets in a small child's head and the pain Ramona feels at being misunderstood is so well done, so sensitively and it's so incredibly funny.

[B]

That's one of the Ramona books by Beverly Cleary.

[D]

By Beverly Cleary, yeah. And another good back to school pick is Ms. Nelson is missing with the iconic James Marshall illustrations. It's by Harry Allard and just makes school seem kind of fun and mysterious and prone to magical happenings even for very young children. So recommended.

[B]

I knew you were gonna sneak in one more good one, Sadie. That was my conversation with Sadie Stein and Louis Sachar about Back to School season and the books that we remember reading when we were younger. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. Thanks for listening.

[A]

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