Podcast Summary: The Book Review – "What It Was Like to Edit The 'Wolf Hall' Books"

Release Date: April 18, 2025 | Host: Gilbert Cruz | Guest: Nicholas Pearson

Introduction

In the April 18, 2025 episode of The Book Review podcast, host Gilbert Cruz engages in an insightful conversation with Nicholas Pearson, the Publishing Director at John Murray and Hilary Mantel's longtime editor at Fourth Estate. The discussion delves into Pearson's experiences editing Mantel's acclaimed "Wolf Hall" trilogy, exploring the intricate process behind these historical novels and their significant impact on modern literature.

Guest Background

Nicholas Pearson brings a wealth of experience to the conversation, highlighting his extensive career in British publishing since 1988. He recounts his tenure at Fourth Estate, where he collaborated with renowned authors such as Jeffrey Genovese, Jonathan Franzen, and Doris Lessing. Pearson emphasizes his versatile role in handling both fiction and non-fiction projects.

Nicholas Pearson [02:16]: "I've been working as an editor all my life since 1988... I was lucky to work with some amazing writers."

Meeting Hilary Mantel

Pearson shares the origins of his professional relationship with Hilary Mantel, which began in the early 1990s at Faber and Faber. He recounts his first encounter with Mantel through Derek Bevan's novel, Newton's Niece, which was inspired by a writing course Mantel conducted.

Nicholas Pearson [02:55]: "I first encountered her... and that was the beginning of the relationship he had with her."

Editing the "Wolf Hall" Trilogy

The core of the episode centers on Pearson's collaboration with Mantel on the "Wolf Hall" trilogy. He describes the initial contract for two books—one focused on Thomas Cromwell and another set in 1970s Botswana. Mantel's shift in focus to the Tudor narrative highlights her dedication and creative vision.

Nicholas Pearson [03:53]: "I did a contract with her for two books... and then she got to a point where it was actually making her unhappy."

Pearson reveals Mantel's meticulous writing process, characterized by her ability to craft extensive drafts with minimal editorial intervention.

Nicholas Pearson [08:33]: "She didn't need an editor in that sort of way... my role was just to encourage her and to be a sounding board."

Publication and Reception

Wolf Hall enjoyed remarkable success, winning the Booker Prize and receiving widespread acclaim. Pearson reflects on the novel's reception, noting initial skepticism from some quarters but overall enthusiastic reviews that propelled the book to prominence.

Nicholas Pearson [12:19]: "Apart from the Sunday Times which gave it a big thumbs down, the reviews were absolutely ecstatic across the board."

The sequel, Bring Up the Bodies, also secured the Booker Prize, cementing Mantel's status in literary circles. Pearson discusses the transformation Mantel and Pearson experienced as the books gained international recognition.

Nicholas Pearson [13:33]: "She was thrilled to win the Booker Prize... it freed her up financially and she could think about the rest of her career differently."

Themes and Impact of the Trilogy

Pearson elaborates on the trilogy's exploration of the transition from medieval England to the modern state, focusing on the formation of the Church of England and the intricate politics of the Tudor court. The character of Thomas Cromwell serves as a lens through which Mantel examines power, corruption, and societal transformation.

Nicholas Pearson [14:17]: "It's about the sloughing off of medieval England and the beginnings of a modern state and the Church of England."

Mantel's nuanced portrayal of Cromwell challenges traditional views, presenting him as a complex and multifaceted character rather than a one-dimensional antagonist.

Nicholas Pearson [20:24]: "I thought about him in relatively black and white terms... life's much more complicated than that."

Editing and Collaboration Process

Pearson highlights Mantel's exceptional self-editing skills and her preference for minimal editorial notes. His role primarily involved providing encouragement and serving as a supportive soundboard during the extensive writing process.

Nicholas Pearson [09:25]: "But in terms of a collaboration with Hillary... it was really very little for me to do at all."

He also touches upon the challenges faced during the editing of the final installment, The Mirror and the Light, emphasizing the novel's expanded scope and the necessity for thoughtful revisions.

Nicholas Pearson [09:45]: "With the last book, it was a much more unwieldy part of the story... she had to make cuts."

Theater Adaptations and Creative Synergy

Mantel's collaboration extended beyond the written word into theatrical adaptations of her novels. Pearson discusses her involvement with stage productions and the reciprocal influence between the plays and the books.

Nicholas Pearson [29:23]: "She adored seeing her novels turned into plays... it fed back into The Mirror and the Light."

Mantel's engagement with actors like Ben Miles enriched her literary work, allowing her to reinterpret and deepen her characters through different mediums.

Nicholas Pearson [32:35]: "She's a very big admirer of Mark Rylance's portrayal of Cromwell... he's brilliant."

Mantel's Legacy and Final Reflections

Pearson reflects on Mantel's enduring legacy, particularly her dedication to historical fiction and her ability to intertwine personal themes such as outsider status and power dynamics within her narratives. He considers the "Wolf Hall" trilogy as possibly her defining achievement, integrating motifs from her broader body of work.

Nicholas Pearson [33:24]: "It is probably what she will be most remembered for."

He shares poignant moments from the trilogy that left a lasting impression on him, underscoring the emotional depth and literary brilliance of Mantel's writing.

Nicholas Pearson [34:42]: "There's so much in those books. I just think they're incredible."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with heartfelt acknowledgments of Pearson's invaluable role in shaping Mantel's literary masterpieces. Cruz and Pearson celebrate the profound impact of the "Wolf Hall" trilogy on contemporary literature and its enduring relevance.

Nicholas Pearson [36:40]: "It's been an absolute pleasure."

Notable Quotes

• Nicholas Pearson [02:16]: "I've been working as an editor all my life since 1988... I was lucky to work with some amazing writers."

• Nicholas Pearson [03:53]: "I did a contract with her for two books... and then she got to a point where it was actually making her unhappy."

• Nicholas Pearson [08:33]: "She didn't need an editor in that sort of way... my role was just to encourage her and to be a sounding board."

• Nicholas Pearson [12:19]: "Apart from the Sunday Times which gave it a big thumbs down, the reviews were absolutely ecstatic across the board."

• Nicholas Pearson [14:17]: "It's about the sloughing off of medieval England and the beginnings of a modern state and the Church of England."

• Nicholas Pearson [20:24]: "I thought about him in relatively black and white terms... life's much more complicated than that."

• Nicholas Pearson [29:23]: "She adored seeing her novels turned into plays... it fed back into The Mirror and the Light."

• Nicholas Pearson [34:42]: "There's so much in those books. I just think they're incredible."

This episode offers a comprehensive and intimate look into the editorial journey behind one of the most celebrated historical fiction trilogies, providing listeners with a deeper appreciation of Hilary Mantel's literary genius and her collaborative relationship with Nicholas Pearson.