Liam (4:57)

It makes sense. Basically you've got the firsthand experience, you know what people are going to need and why they need it. Because this is the thing where you see a lot of these tech that come along, they start to do things from say another industry perspective. And as a host, you kind of need to know this industry. So it's super important and great for everybody listening to know that you've got your own short term rental business and you really understand the problems. And one of those problems, as we've touched on in the introduction, is that the industry is maturing, right? There's, there's what worked five years ago may not work now. What are some of the biggest signs of these shifts happening? And why is revenue management in particular, so critical for the hosts that are listening to this.

John (5:44)

Yeah. So I just want to put this kind of into a context that I think a lot of us can see and understand has happened in other industries. So if you look at like the e commerce industry, for example, right. You know, about like eight, you know, eight, 10 years ago, it was very easy to start an E commerce business. You know, you just kind of had a product, you put it online or you put it on Amazon and like you could start making a lot of money doing, you know, basically once you have the systems, doing nothing, not nothing, you know, very little and create a good business. I would say today not too many people will just jump into an e commerce business willy nilly saying, hey, this is my next move. Right. It's matured so much, the technology, the platforms, Amazon taking so much of the cut, the competitiveness. So that if you want to succeed as an E commerce business, you really have to go into it as a serious business, have the system set up from the get go so that you're not just wasting your time and money trying to start a new business. We're kind of in that phase in the short term rental industry where, you know, 2021, 2022, you could still just list a property on Airbnb or vrbo. And even if you didn't like get your systems right, or even if you didn't get your revenue management right, things just happened and revenue came in. We are at a point right now where the OTAs are starting to take more and more. There's a lot of competition coming in, there's a lot of technology that's helping the competition be better at the game.

Guest (7:26)

Right.

John (7:27)

And so if you think what you did one or two years ago is just going to continue to go on, you're going to be one of those successful e commerce businesses that kind of fizzled away because you thought you could continue to do exactly what you were doing and then competition started taking the market share. That is literally what is happening to the short term rental industry at this point. And so in any business revenue, the top line revenue, right is the starting point. And then you have your expenses and your systems and everything. So revenue management is so critical to get right right now. And even if you were able to bring in great revenue a year or two ago, or two years ago, it does not mean that it's just going to continue on that way. And I'm not saying this as doom and gloom or I'm just giving some historic context. And this is kind of the natural progression of emerging industries. And that is literally what I'm seeing. And I'm not the one that came up with this analogy. You know, there are other experts who came up with it and I listened to them. The founder of Minoan was the one that I, you know, kind of opened, opened me up to this. But it's very clear that that is what's happening to our industry right now. And so if you want to be successful, whether it's revenue management, whether it's systems, whether it's hiring, whatever it may be, you really need to take it as a serious business and not as a side hustle or a hobby.

Liam (8:58)

That's cool. And we've had Minoan on, so it's good to. I like the name drop there and I like the analogy overall. I mean, all businesses mature, right? And we're seeing tech moves on faster than ever. Obviously you've got AI now and all of these things which are maturing hosts certainly, you know, six, seven years ago, didn't have any dynamic pricing. I now see many hosts rely on price labs or wheelhouse or beyond pricing, you know, a couple of these, these pieces of tech. What would you say to the people who just go, well, it's okay, I do revenue management. I've switched that on and I've kind of switched it on and now I don't have to do anything. What would you say to these people? Do they need a, are they missing something? Without a proper revenue management strategy?

John (9:50)

So again, without sounding, you know, self serving, but the technology, right, is kind of the analogy that I use and I use lots of analogies, so I apologize if I mix analogies up. But in this case, the technology is like having a Formula one race car, right? Price labs, real house, beyond pricing, amazing technology. They've been improving the technology incrementally over the many years, right? However, just because you have the best McLaren or Ferrari, whatever race car, if you don't have a driver, you're not going to win the Grand Prix. Now, I'm not here to say tech tape is the best driver. You may be the best driver for your own portfolio or for your own business, but you need someone behind the wheels who's keeping their eyes on the road, hands on the wheel and making the adjustments on an ongoing, constant basis, not just on what the road has ahead. That's like the market, but other competitors who may be swerving in front of you.

Guest (10:56)

Right?

John (10:57)

Then you have to, you know, you have to make adjustments in order to not crash. And like Pass them.

Guest (11:03)

Right.

John (11:04)

That is what the revenue manager is doing. So the technology is there and it helps with a lot of aspects of it and it brings in a lot of data, but someone still has to make the informed decisions.

Guest (11:18)

Right.

John (11:19)

And if you just leave it at some settings and just let the technology go, that's like saying, I'm going to race the Grand Prix with autopilot on and I expect to win.

Guest (11:30)

Right.

John (11:31)

That's not going to happen. There's no. Ferrari is not going to put their car on autopilot and let that be their strategy for winning. Correct?

Liam (11:41)

Yeah.

John (11:42)

So you need both the technology and you need someone at the wheel. And, you know, I'll go into kind of how, you know, how frequently we're going into everything, but just having some set of settings and then expecting the technology to do it is like cruising on the highway and saying, I have auto control, driver's assist, or even Tesla's self drive. And because I have that, everything's going to be fine. And as we all know, it's getting better and better, but it's not quite there yet.

Liam (12:19)

It makes complete sense. I love the analogy. Again, it really gets it clear in my head that it's not just having the best tech, it's having somebody behind the wheel who's making these adjustments constantly to be able to get the best performance. And I know one of the mistakes, as we said, is, is leaving on autopilot, but is there any other big mistakes that you see regularly before we talk about the solutions, Is there any other kind of mistakes that people who are listening to this may be making that they might not be aware that they're making?

John (12:49)

Yes, this will sound very counterintuitive, but trying to force your property or your portfolio or to meet what others or what the market is doing, or exceed it by a certain percentage, what we call it is chasing the market or chasing the competitor, trying to force your pricing or your pricing and revenue strategy around what you see or what you believe your competitors are doing. 85% of the time, that actually is very counterintuitive because your property is unique and not just in terms of its physical attributes.

Guest (13:40)

Right.

John (13:40)

Where it's located and the views and what it has, but the photography, the reviews that it gets, the where it's showing up in the algorithm.

Guest (13:51)

Right.

John (13:52)

So even if you have like the same property in a condominium building, if the algorithm is pushing you down, then there are things that you need to do to get it back up.

Guest (14:03)

Right.

John (14:03)

And you can't just say, well, the property Next door to me is pricing it and, you know, getting booked at this rate. And I see so many, even very expert operators chasing that. And when you chase what your property cannot achieve, what actually happens is you underachieve even further because there are all, there are other dynamics that are going on aside from the physical property itself. And so that is something that I just want to. It's really difficult, especially as a real estate asset. It's like everyone's used to the comps and if this property sold for this much, then my property should sell for this much. But chasing that is something that I see consistently that ends up causing the underperformance.

Liam (14:57)

Got it. And this is where I guess the next question, I'm sure people be shouting this into the podcast, which is, well, what can I do about it? Instead of chasing what the market is saying, what is the one change or the few changes that I could make as a host today and the people listening could make to increase the revenue, what would that be?

John (15:22)

So I won't. It's not one change or a couple changes. Right. Revenue management is a process that happens over time. So if that is happening where you have a beautiful property, but it's underperforming, then it's a process to get it back up and running and get it back into the greases of the Airbnb algorithm and the VRBO algorithm. You need to give it time to season, to mature to. All right, my property is just as good as my next door neighbors, but it's not performing. Let's make some adjustments so that we get it to start showing up in the algorithms starting to perform so that over time we're getting it back up to there. And I think again, it's not a setting, but I think the mentality is if I just get the price right, or if I just get the settings right, or if I just get this right, then it's going to do exactly the same as, you know, my competitor. And I think that time component is the piece that so many, even the best operators out there think that it's all data driven. And once I know what the market is doing and if my property is a little bit better, then I should be doing a little bit better than the market. And it's not a direct one to one correlation. There's, there's a, you know, process to get it to there if it's not performing.

Liam (16:58)

And would you say when it comes down to the number of hosts, I mean, I talk to a lot of hosts and especially at the moment, there's loads of different tech that people could go and subscribe to and do. But I see this often so happen that happens so often even that hosts don't necessarily use the tech. They've got to their full performance. What would you say to people who aren't using the revenue management to their full performance or aren't using some of these new tools that they could be using? How do they kind of change that mindset and, and spend the time? I think you've mentioned, you know, people have got to spend the time. What, what would you say to them on how do they, how do they, how do they get better at doing this and actually use the tech which is, is available to them?

John (17:48)

So there are two sides of this, right? So on the one hand a lot of the tech providers are expanding their scope of service, right? So PMSs are now before it used to be just about like channel connection and maybe messaging and making sure the calendar was, you know, coordinated properly. And then it was all third party tools and you had to choose among, you know, which third party tool worked best for you to run your business. Now every PMS has lock integration. Every PMS is now starting to do some sort of revenue management system. Every PMS is starting, they're expanding their scope, right? Which is on the one hand great because it could be a all in one solution if it works for you. Every short term rental business, because there's no university of short term rental education was not every, but most businesses have kind of built from the ground up and so they operate differently. So there's not this one size fits all solution, right? One mistake that I see is someone who's looking for this all in one tool, they find it and they're trying to make this all in one tool. All the features work for them and 40% of the features actually don't work for their business. Just the way they operate, just the way the feature was designed and how it executes, right? So now they're there like trying to bang their heads against this wall that doesn't work for them. So that's one way that they're not using the tech to the fullest capacity because they're trying to force a technology that's really not designed for their business to work for them. On the other side, there are other operators who choose a PMS because this PMS has 25 features and the next PMS has 10 features, 25 is more than 10. So I'm going to choose the one that has 25, right? Without again understanding what works for their business. So it's that balance of what are the core feature sets within the existing technology that works for me and my business and how we operate. Even if there are other features that are in there, it's okay to bring in other feature sets from other technology if that's the right fit for your business.

Liam (20:18)

Are there. Obviously you get a lot of experience of dealing with the different texts through, through your clients, and that side of things is there. Can you share any kind of stories of where it's had a big impact to use like tech tape and, and to, you know, any success stories where we could go? I can see exactly how that works and, and, and how it's helped.

John (20:44)

Yeah. Is it okay if I share my screen or I could just talk to it as well?

Liam (20:50)

It is. Let me allow the screen share two seconds for anyone listening on the podcast. We'll. We'll talk it through. So, John, that will now let you share the screen.

John (20:59)

All right, so let me. All right, so can you see my screen?

Liam (21:06)

I can see a screen. And it looks like we are looking at some analytics here of revenue revpar, occupancy and average daily rate.

John (21:15)

Yes. So let me refresh this because some of the graphs are not showing up properly. All right, so this is a client partner of ours on the revenue management side in Michigan and the United States. They have a portfolio of about 30 properties. And so I want to focus on revparty because that talks about on a per unit basis, per property basis. So even if they grew or shrank over the years, it's still kind of a fair metric. So the black line, the solid Black line is 2024. The dotted lines are years before, and the red line is 2025. We started working with them at the end, tail end of September, and they gave us five properties. Just kind of test us out in terms of, hey, can you guys increase our revenue performance? So out of 35, you know, out of 3035 properties, we had five properties. And so we worked with them. We didn't have a meaningful impact on their overall performance. And this is their entire portfolio. However, over the October, November, we had kind of at least proved ourselves that they could say, hey, let's put on the rest of your portfolio working with you guys. So effectively, we consider November the time period when we started really working with them. So then if you look at the revpar In December, December 2024, that was the highest revpar that they, you know, this company has ever had. They, they've had other months, you know, in, in that year, but was the highest revpar they've ever had in a December, you know, ever. Now if we look at January, the red line again, we achieved a high, the highest revpar. And this is comparing against 2021, 2022, 2023, and then February again and now March. We're at the very start of the beginning, you know, of the month of March right now Today is what, March 4th. And we still have, you know, the occupancy here. We're still relatively low on the occupancy side, so there's still potential to increase this revenue moving forward. So very quickly, within a two, three month period, we've kind of turned around the revenue performance. And the longer we work with them, as we learn how they operate, we anticipate it'll only get better. The one last quick point I'll make is the red line is 2025. So this graph that I'm hovering over right now are the actual booked ADR avenue daily, daily rate in the, into the future. And what you see is we've already started capturing some crazy, you know, bookings that's way higher than they've ever gotten.

Guest (24:30)

Right.

John (24:31)

And so as we're getting into the, you know, into the future, we, we see a very positive outlook for this portfolio. So I will leave it at that. I know I, I can get into the details way too much, so I'll kind of stop sharing the screen. But this is an example of how not only immediately we can make some impact to increase revenue, but as we're working together over time, strategy really starts to kick in. And that's really where the magic happens. Not the first month or two or three, but as the process is, as we allow the process to continue on.

Liam (25:13)

That's really cool. That's really cool. Thank you. Yeah.

John (25:17)

I need to figure out how to stop sharing the screen now.

Liam (25:21)

There should be a button down the bottom. There we go. Awesome. So thank you so much for sharing that, John. And ultimately, it's just nice to see what it looks like when you've got a driver at the steering wheel to pinch. From your earlier analogy, it is nice to see that the ADR can go up, that the overall performance can increase, especially as you get more into that market. And I'm going to go slightly off piste here of our prepared questions, but how do you do it for a market that you, you know, that you're not familiar with? Because I, I sometimes get asked like, hey, can I help? You know, a market which I'm not familiar with, how Long does it take for yourself or your team to get familiar with that market? Is there certain metrics that you look at or how easy is it to do? And this is a question, by the way, from Dina, who's based up in, in Canada. She, I mentioned that we were jumping on a podcast today and she said, oh, do you mind asking John this? So I hope you don't mind that we've gone off piece there.

John (26:30)

And Dina is a great friend of mine, long, long, long term friend of mine. So I'm really glad that she asked. So the first piece is that, as I said before, revenue management is a process. It happens over time. We don't have the exact right answer. No one has the exact right answer. And that's why it takes time to kind of get into, understand the market, understand the operator that you're working with and combining those two. So it does take time to do that. With that said, we treat all the partners that we work with as one of our data sources. And I think a lot of, a lot of the assumption is that the data is actually what the market is doing. It's this hard physical data of like, what happened, what booked, at what rate, and that's really the data. But a key critical component of the data is the experience, knowledge and risk tolerance of the partners that we work with. And the faster we can ingest that, the quicker we can combine the market and the hard data with the soft data. So if we can get a lot of the feedback on their experience quickly, then we can on ramp to the market very quickly. If, you know, they're busy doing, you know, growing their inventory and whatnot, we can still get there in, you know, three, four months. But it takes a little bit of time for us to see what's going on and see what the feedback from, you know, from our partners are. We're primarily, you know, most of our, I'm based in the US So most of our partners are in the US but we have a strong footprint in Australia. We have a small footprint in Canada, where Dana is, and we have a small footprint in Europe. And these are markets that we don't have experience in. But typically within two to three months, we're able to get it going Right. So it's not an overnight success type of a story, but it does take time and you do have to have patience in order to really get the revenue performing.

Liam (28:49)

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna link it to your analogy again here, which is if you was to take a good driver, even if they Know, a track, you know, inside and out, yes, they'll, they'll be better at that track, but you could take them and put them on any racetrack in the world, they, they may take a couple of laps, but ultimately they're going to be better than somebody who doesn't know how to drive that car. Right. And hopefully that, that makes sense in terms of that analogy. When you're looking at these markets, you're still, you know what you're looking for, don't you? Which is, is the key thing. So there's a couple of other bits of, a couple of questions I want to squeeze in just before we bring it to a close. And the first thing I'd say is there's lots of AI tools coming out on some of these dynamic pricing tools and other things. How do you see that impacting short term rental in general in the next couple of years?

John (29:43)

I mean, it's already impacted the short term rental industry and we are very cognizant that the more that AI can process and interpret the data, a lot of people. Aren't you scared that they're going to take away your business? No, we're excited that it's going to enhance our abilities to see further into the insights. That's one thing that we're very excited about on the revenue management side. But on all aspects of, you know, of the short term industry, on the flip side, what we see consistently, and one of the reasons why I, I believe we are, you know, a premier company, is the source data, whether it's coming from the pms, whether it's coming from a data provider, whether it's coming from, you know, revenue manager system. It's very dirty right now. It's not aligned.

Guest (30:49)

Right.

John (30:49)

So if you have bad data, then AI cannot make the right decisions around that bad input data. And so we do see a lot of issues that we run into on a frequent basis when we're trying to analyze the data and say, hey, how come the data says this? And then I call human beings having the ability to have fuzzy logic. You can see the data and you can make inferences based on patterns that you see that aren't very specific. It's that fuzzy logic that I think allows us to make decisions even when the data is not clean. AI is already getting to a point where it can start, you know, interpreting things that are not formatted exactly correctly. But right now I think that illusion of within the next year or so that it's all going to be data driven because AI can interpret everything that source Data has to really get cleaned up so that what it's analyzing is clean. And let me give you one real quick example that I think a lot of folks will understand. Both Airbnb and VRBO prematurely tried AI to assess listing quality.

Guest (32:16)

Right.

John (32:17)

And on Airbnb side, the second you got like, two slightly negative reviews, AI determined that it was a bad property and took it offline.

Guest (32:28)

Right?

John (32:29)

That was bad data. Like, it could have been just a bad, you know, like a revengeful guest who put it in there.

Guest (32:36)

Right.

Liam (32:37)

There's a few people listening to this going, yeah, that was me. I can't believe they took it down. And I know hosts myself who had that exact problem. And.

John (32:45)

Right, yeah. So the AI had bad data that it took action on. Now they've kind of corrected it, they've retrained it, so it's not happening anymore.

Guest (32:54)

Right.

John (32:54)

That's going to be a process. But just like a company like Airbnb thought their AI was ready for prime time, they released it and it cost havoc. And now they've kind of rolled it back. We're going to be seeing that kind of premature release of AI, the next level AI technology, I believe, and then say, oh, you know what? It doesn't work that way. And human beings actually think in a very complex way. And I think it's going to. I'm not an AI expert, I'm not trying to pretend that. But it's going to take some time for AI to catch up to all the nuances of our industry and of many other industries as well, because it's not a direct. When this happens, then you do that.

Guest (33:46)

Right.

John (33:46)

So that's. And I'm an old fart, so I'll just say that's my crotchety way of saying you still need that human touch, especially in a hospitality business.

Liam (34:01)

We say it often on the Boost podcast that people buy from people. And you're absolutely right that this is a complex business dealing with emotions and then numbers and then marketing and all these things. And like, say, if the source data isn't there and if an AI hasn't got the experience yet to. To do it, then, you know, we're. We're pretty safe for the time being, at least in.

John (34:24)

In.

Liam (34:25)

In what we do, aren't we? So, no, thank you so much, John. And I think it's really important for. For people to take away this message from this podcast to really look at their tech, especially at the moment, their. What they're doing around their revenue strategy. Would you be able to share how people can come and find out more from yourself. Where do they go, what links? And then can you also to, to finish share with the listeners what piece of advice? What's the one thing they should do straight after this podcast to go and you know, move the needle forward in their business? Yep.

John (35:02)

So I am Fairly active on LinkedIn myself and then obviously my company, Tech Tape. So if you look up, you know, John on tech tape on LinkedIn, you can find me and I'm happy to hop on a call, you know, kind of a brief, you know, introductory call to learn about your business and you can schedule a time there. We have our website and I, you know, I'm sure you'll put in the show notes so, you know, I can leave it at that. And we have a small presence on Facebook and Instagram.

Liam (35:37)

Thank you so much.

John (35:38)

And the advice to move their business forward, I'll focus specifically on the revenue side, which is it's the consistency every few days looking at your revenue, seeing what's happening and making an adjustment that will really help move that needle forward. And I think that's like kind of lowest hanging fruit that a lot of people miss is, you know, it's a month or two before they go back into the revenue management tools and make adjustments. So I will say it's the consistency that really matters.

Liam (36:16)

Definitely do one thing every day that, that moves the, the business forward, which is. Which. Great. This has been really fun. John, thank you so much for, for coming on and thank you too for listening to this on the Boostly podcast. Hopefully you can take this information and you can go and put this into your business. And ultimately everything we talk about here on the Boostly podcast is how you can improve your hospitality business, but particularly those direct bookings and obviously improving your revenue, being set at the right price, having the right tech. There's a number of different ways you can come and do this. And if you want to talk more about direct bookings, there's two places you can do, you can go to, you can go to the Facebook group, which is the hospitality community, it's a free Facebook group. Or you can go to Amazon and buy the best selling book by Mark Simpson, which is the book Direct Playbook Book. And it'll help you get more direct bookings if you give that a read or listen on Audible. John, this has been really fun. Thank you again for, for coming on. For everybody who wants to go and check out Tech tape, go to www.gettechtape.com and the links are in the show notes that's it for this episode. We'll see you on the next one. Thanks. Bye for now.