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439: CEO Mama: Working Mothers Spend More Time With Their Kids Than Stay at Home Mothers in The ‘70s?!” Plus Nervous System Regulation as Entrepreneurs, AI Predictions + Running Calm Companies
01:19:30
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome back to the Boss Bay podcast. Today you've got me and Lindsay and we're fired up because just before this we read a tweet and we were like, we need to get on podcast ASAP and talk about it. So let me read the tweet out and then we'll get into it. So Scott Galloway tweeted. Is it still tweeted or is it X? I don't even know. So he tweeted and said, today's parents spend more time and money on their children than previous generations. Working mothers spend as much time with their children as stay at home mothers of the 1970s and feel more pressure to be hands on. And when I read that, so I sent this to you and initially we were like, this can't be right. This, this is just a tweet. So went down the rabbit hole and have pulled up the actual article, the research, all of it. And we want to get into it because. Were you mind blown when you seen that? I was first mind blown and then part of me had a sense of relief like, oh, I'm not doing so bad.
- [01:14]
B
Yeah. I was like. And I read all the comments. It, it showed up on a viral reel too. And I read all the comments and everyone's like, there's no way, like this is a misprint. They got the data wrong. There's no way. So I went and found, like, I read through the article that was linked and found the research study. And it's true. And it's so interesting because I'm like, it makes sense with the way they did the research and the, you know, history behind how our society kind of shifted through those decades. But it feels crazy because like we talk about, I think so many of us are like, we want to get back to the trad wife era. Like, we want to be stay at home moms and just like spend all day with our kids and be so child focused. And then you see this data and it's like the 50s and 60s and 70s were not child focused, not in the way that we would think about it now. So it's so interesting, like juxtaposing it next to this trad wife movement that we see on social media and kind of make fun of, but also kind of envy. And it's like that actually wasn't a time of a lot of they weren't super. That research shows that like, it wasn't a very like childhood or parenting focused era in culture.
- [02:16]
A
Yeah. And I watched this TED Talk last night with Stephen. It was from Jan Cohen And I think the title was how to Raise Mentally Strong Kids in a Fragile World. And what came up in that was actually a lot of parallels to what's in this article. What came up in that was kids these days have no unstructured free time and we're not letting our kids be bored. And there's this rise in helicopter parenting, there's this rise in being so conscious of their traumas and triggers and screen time, social media, all these shifts and changes are actually producing the least mentally resilient generation ever. Which is actually really scary. Not to bring the mood down significantly, but you know, she was sharing statistics on suicide rates and just the rise in all of that. And she shared a stat and I want to say off the top of my head that 25% of Gen Zs have taken a parent to a job interview. And that blew my mind. That was in the TEDx talk. That stat was like 25 or 26%. I think that blew my mind because I think there is a lot of proof now that perhaps maybe we are raising a generation that aren't as mentally stable or resilient. One thing she also brought up, which give me such a visceral memory of when I was younger, was she brought up that you know, if a kid comes home with a project from school, I don't know, for me, like if, if I got sent home with a creative project, I was expected to do it. Like my parents weren't doing it for me. But I viscerally remember going into school and could see some parents had done the project for them and I felt envious of those kids because they had these projects that were like done by their parents. They were just like so much better than mine. But the year after I went home so determined to like really excel in this project. It was like an egg competition where you decorate an egg and people were like making these huge structures and mine was like in an egg cup. Anyway, I share that because she shared in the TEDx that a lot of parents are jumping in to do things for their kids so it looks good and they feel proud of it versus having them figure it out. So lots to dive into.
- [04:35]
B
Oh my God. I mean my, my dad's a criminal defense attorney. He's retired now, but. But he's been a criminal defense attorney for 30 years, my whole life. And I remember stories even you know, over the last 10 years of kids who would have like they would get a dui, you know, college students would get a DUI or they get in trouble on the college campus and they would send like their mom would or dad would come to the meeting with my dad, the attorney and basically say that the, the arresting officer was wrong. Like, my kid didn't do this. There's no way my child did this. My kid is innocent. You know, my, my dad's like, there's body cam footage of your son or your daughter literally doing what they're charged with. Like, just like this total lack of awareness from parents. It's not all parents, but. But yeah, this generation of like, I'm gonna save them. They're a good kid. I'm like, tell me what I need to do to make it okay for them versus like, hey, your kid probably broke the literal law. They have to suffer some consequences. And I remember thinking like, you know, and I was raised by this dad. So of course, like I, I come from a totally different like history of basically being like, oh, you have a school project, guess you better get to work on that, you know. But I remember thinking like, oh, there's parents who would come to a meeting with an attorney and try to tell the attorney that their kid didn't do it, you know, like. But I think it's the same mindset of I'm going to save my kid from something hard. I don't want them to have to go through something hard. So I'm going to jump in and try to make this hard thing go away. And I think all of us as adults, a lot of us as adults, like the hard things are what make you resilient and it makes you able to run a business. It makes you be a good human and a good parent. Like, we're also informed by our hardship. So taking away hardship from your kids feels like a really scary proposition for their success later in life. And that's exactly what you're saying. And it's interesting because the article that we're talking about also said the amount of time around in proximity to our kids hasn't changed very much from like the 70s to now. But the hands on doing things with them and for them has changed. And that's the biggest shift is like the expectation and the load on parents of being involved with the child while you're around them versus them kind of being in your proximity, doing their own thing, like getting bored, finding ways to entertain themselves versus you always being their source of entertainment. I don't know about you, I mean, Noemi's not quite at the age yet where she has homework or anything, but I feel that way where for those years, I mean, they're 5 and 7 now, but it's like, yeah, I was their source of entertainment. And I guess I don't know. My alternative to not helping them be their source of entertainment is like, well, then I guess they're on a screen, which I don't want, you know, and it is that thing about, like, we don't let kids get bored and we don't make them go find their own source of play. I will say one last thing. Since moving to this house where we have two acres, one of my main, like, ambitions in. In having this house and, like, dreams of having a little bit of land was for that reason, so I could send them outside and know that they were safe because it's fenced in and they're not going to, like, run out in the road. And I'm like, go outside and don't come back in for 30 minutes. I will, like, ring an alarm, but you're not allowed back in the house. And I feel like that is like, a little bit of returning to that era of like, go play with the neighbors and come back at dinner. But, like, you can't be inside whining about being bored. You can't be inside on a screen. You've got to go find something to go do that doesn't require parent oversight. And I mean, so far that, like, we've only not been here a year yet, but I do think it works. Like, I think if you have that ability to be really present of, like, send them to go do something and not hover over them. But it's so hard. Like, when we lived on a residential street with a street like a. Cars. Cars driving by. Didn't let them do that because I don't feel safe, you know? So I'm like, how much of this has also been caused by the way we live now and that we don't feel safe with our kids running around outside, and we don't feel safe sending our kids to the neighbor's house who we don't know very well. And like, the intrusive thoughts, you know, I mean, it's so complex and nuanced. I think.
- [08:31]
A
Yeah. To all of that. And it's. I'm glad that we're having this conversation because I was watching the TED Talk and just seeing myself in it, like, oh, my God. Yeah, I can be a helicopter parent. And I will say I seen a real. I think it was last year, and it was like this woman was saying a game changer for her and her family has been on a weekend. It's not just all about the kids anymore. They actually do stuff like as a. As a couple, they want to do, and they bring their kids along. And me and Steven have started incorporating that more and more into our weekends. Like, yes, we still. Yesterday we took her to feed the ducks, and she gets, you know, things that are focused on her, but we also take her shopping with us. We take her on errands. And I do notice the weekends where I'm doing stuff I actually want to do as well. She goes to bed on a Sunday night and I'm not as exhausted. Whereas when it's all like the soft play, the whatever, doing this, the museum, the. That I get to a Sunday night and I'm like, oh, my God, I am exhausted. So I think there probably is something to that. I think talking about it probably is lessening the guilt for me because as I think through it logically, it does make sense about the way I want a parent. Like, yes, I want to minimize the level of trauma and I want to raise, like, the happiest, healthiest kids that I can. And at the same time, you know, I want her to be mentally resilient. I want to prepare her for the world. I want her to have a really strong mental health. Like, I want her inner game to be on point, and she's not going to get that by being wrapped in cotton wool. And I also feel really strongly about the screen time. Like, she's not getting a phone, she's not getting an iPad. She's not getting social media. Like, I know we're not going to do that. I'm going to hold out, like, to a really uncomfortable age. If I can hold out till she's 16, I will. You know, I don't know how possible that's going to be because of peer pressure and depending on schooling and all that stuff. But I know I want to hold out for as long as I can.
- [10:31]
B
This is kind of a tangent, but I read an article from Chip and Joanna Gaines, and they have five kids and they're super celebrity, obviously. And they. They didn't let their kids. They had phones for safety, but they didn't have any social media apps or any entertainment apps until they turned 18. So, like, they didn't let their kids have a presence online essentially, until they turned 18. And they have this whole explanation of why they did it. It's essentially all of this stuff of, like, we live in this world as adults and we get burned out and we get traumatized by the comments people send to us. And, like, if. If Our adult nervous systems who are seasoned in this stuff can't handle it. How is a 14 year old or a 13 year old or a 15 year old going to do it? Like, absolutely not. That's a whole other topic. I think that's such a mental load thing too of at what age are they capable of handling how much is out there, you know, and weighing that against like peer pressure and learning. Because I think also there's such an argument that so much of what's offered on devices, especially at our kids age, their schooling is going to be so much digital schooling and AI and all these things. Like I want them to be technically competent because the world they're going to go into is so technical and so digital, but also like it is a very slippery slope and you can't like once they have access to AI or once they have access to part of it, it's all there. Like you can't, you can't really limit it. You know, that's a crazy loop in my mind of like am I doing them a disservice by keeping them off of it? But also their nervous systems aren't ready to be exposed to that until they're adults. And so it's.
- [12:06]
A
Yeah, yeah, I don't think so. And I've even heard of from friends of friends of like 10 year old girls having AI boyfriends and things like that just scares the living daylights out of me.
- [12:18]
B
Yeah. Oh my God. I haven't even. That's how it doesn't even. That's crazy.
- [12:23]
A
That's the thing.
- [12:25]
B
See this is like, this is why like the data, like reading this article, that that was the basis of this whole conversation. And it was like basically in the 70s and before that we never really considered children as like we didn't really put it together. I mean I wasn't alive at the time obviously, but I have boomer parents. You know, I'm like, I can see this, that parenting wasn't really a verb. Like parenting as a verb. And the study of parenting and the conversation about being a good parent like really started in 70s and 80s and it started this awareness around like what we do to kids in their childhood affects them as adults. Like that whole line of thought really didn't gain popularity until the 70s and 80s. And so it's like we are the generation of people who were the first generation raised with like some awareness around how we are parented affects how we turn out as adults. And so it's interesting me like in this conversation around technology because our kids now aren't just going to be impacted by like their childhood is impacted no matter what we do as parents, you know, because they are exposed to it. And we are now in this era where we can't protect them from everything that could get them. Like, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is I think in the 70s and before in a non digital world, you could protect your kids from so much of what could potentially harm them, where maybe you didn't have to have so much awareness around their childhood. And now I'm like, there is so much always that they are exposed to that you can't control, that you have to have this hyper focus on how their childhood is going and what they're being exposed to and how you're supporting them through it. So it's like, I guess we kind of have to parent in this way where we're so involved and how do we then not over, like you said, how do we not over parent? So we take away all their resilience and they become really dependent adults that can't handle when hard things happen.
- [14:14]
A
Yeah. And I mean back then there also was an Instagram and TikTok where there are people out there that are painting a picture of being the absolute perfect parents. Just every minute of every day is doting on their kids and creating these huge experiences and all that stuff, which is great. And that brings in a lens of comparison that we have never had to deal with before. And I think that's not necessarily doing a good thing to the way that we're parenting or the way we see ourselves as parents because it is so easy to get caught up in that comparison trap of like, how are they doing it all? How are they doing all of that? Like, oh, you know, to raise a happy kid, I need to be doing X, Y, Z more. I don't think it's serving us. Whereas back then we didn't have all of that. Like you would be influenced by your village and the people that you see around you, but you weren't constantly comparing yourself or being shown different images of, you know, how other people are doing it.
- [15:16]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the other whole side of this is there's our care for our children's resilience and our awareness of, you know, wanting them to have the best shot at life. And then there's also what's it doing to us as, as mothers? I mean, we can only speak from the motherhood perspective, but what's it doing to us as parents to have so much Awareness around the intensive parenting, you know, and. And to feel like we have to do it that way, even if we don't. Even if we don't want to, you know, and. And I think that that's part of this. We joke about it, like, the trad wife thing, where it's like this return to a simpler way of doing things where, you know, our kids don't have as much, they don't go to as many activities, they do more around the house, we don't shuttle them to practices and sports and extracurriculars. And, you know, we're not trying to keep up with everything. And we, we don't do every holiday to the max. You know, we don't travel over. Like, we don't do all these things that we see other people doing. And, you know, how much of that pressure is pressure that we do we put on ourselves out of comparison, not because we're trying to do it for our kids, right? And it's like, are we having the important conversation internally to go, do I really want this for my kid? Like, is this really an important value in our family that I'm going to do XYZ thing and I'm going to offer this opportunity to our kids, or is this something I want my kids to do so I can post about it on Instagram? You know, and, like, I know that's, like, really simplistic. I think you and I have seen and had these conversations with people where they're. They seem to be doing things in their life or in their family structure for the applause. Like, you just wrote a newsletter about this recently. Like, and I think parenting can be one of those things where we're seeking external validation about how good we're doing it versus it being really what we want to be doing in our family system. And that's where the burnout comes, or that's where the dysregulation or the resentment towards motherhood can come up, where you're like, I'm exhausted by mother. It's like, well, why are you making all these choices that are exhausting choices? Like, why are you doing so much of this stuff and how much of it is for your kids versus how much of it is for you and the audience and the applause.
- [17:16]
A
Totally. Well, let me read what we'd pulled from the article, because I think a lot of people are probably interested in, like, wait, is it true that I'm spending as much time with my kids? So it says, using time diary data from surveys of American parents over the last four decades, Changing Rhythms of American Family Life finds that despite increased workloads outside of the home, mothers today spend at least as much time interacting with their children as mothers did decades ago. And perhaps even more unexpectedly, the authors find mother's time at work has not resulted in an overall decline in sleep or leisure time. Rather, mothers have made time for both work and family by sacrificing time doing housework and by increased multitasking. Changing Rhythms of American Family Life finds that the total workload in and out of the home for employed parents is high for both sexes, with employed mothers averaging five hours more per week than employed fathers and almost 19 hours more per week than homemaker mothers. Comparing average workloads of fathers with all mothers, both those in the paid workforce and homemakers, the authors find that there is gender equality in total workloads as there has been since 1965. Overall, it appears that Americans have adapted to changing circumstances to ensure that they preserve their family time and provide adequately for their children. Yeah, you may have heard that I recently co founded a brand new company, Glossy, which is a skin routine you can drink. And I wanted to tell you a little bit more about it. It is incred. It says powdered supplement that you drink at least once a day. I'm personally a morning and afternoon kind of person and it is so good for your skin and your gut. One of the ingredients that I want to call out is probiotic D111. So it helps maintain a healthy gut microbiome. It supports digestion and skin barrier function. It's also really good for helping to reduce any discomfort in your stomach and bloating. I swear by Glossy, that's just one of the key ingredients. We also have vitamin C, magnesium, hyaluronic acid, coconut water powder, sea salt, zinc. It really comes from all angles to support you inside out. I love it. In a morning I drop in and hydrogen tablet just to really boost things. And then in the afternoon I normally add some B vitamins. It makes me feel absolutely amazing and I really feel the difference in my gut. Specifically, I'm more regular, I'm less bloated. I just really feel a difference. So if you're Interested, go to getglocy.com that's G-L-O-C-I.com and use the code boss babe and you'll get a huge discount off your order.
- [20:00]
B
It's crazy.
- [20:00]
A
I mean what's interesting too is like how it's saying there is actually more gender equality than we think there is.
- [20:07]
B
Yeah, in total workload you Know, because men have, in general, have always worked full time, and even so now it's like women were. Now, even if we're working outside of the home, we're making up the extra time at home, too. And it's like the multitasking thing, I think, is where it's really relatable too, because it's. I think a lot of the time we spend with our kids now is split focus. And where in the past maybe it was like, hey, I've got to get dinner ready, go play outside, or I've got to clean the house, go to the neighbor's house. Now it's like, I'm going to get dinner ready and you're going to be here helping me, or, you know, I'm going to put a show on, or, like, you're going to be in my proximity and I'm entertaining you while also trying to do dinner or also try to clean or frick work. I mean, some of us are who have a kid home and we're trying to work, which is a whole other story, you know. And I think the multitasking expectation of mothers has become such a normalization, and we've talked about this before, of, like, it's just expected that you are the primary breadwinner and the primary default parent. And that means sometimes when those two things overlap, you still, yeah, you have to do both, and you have to find a way to do it. You don't have childcare today, but you have meetings like, okay, you got to do it. And it's. The expectation of multitasking is just so embedded in our culture. I think it's interesting because I. One of the CEO mama episodes we had out recently, I talked about capacity and how once you become a mother, I think that your capacity just, like, it just increases. There's no consideration for, oh, I have to give up some stuff because now I'm a mother and this all has to fit in. It's like, oh, I just infinitely expand my capacity to keep doing the things I was doing and be a mother. And we never really take a minute to go, wow, like, how is my capacity actually affected by all the things on my plate, plus how I want to show up in motherhood? And I think that's why, like, we don't actually think about our capacity, because multitasking has just become the verb that we all operate under. It's like, I'll just do both all the time.
- [22:03]
A
Yeah. And hearing that sleep and leisure time hasn't decreased. I mean, one, I'm happy to Hear that? But two, I do think it is probably why so many women are feeling so burned out and exhausted on a consistent basis, Their nervous systems absolutely rattled. Like, just constant multitasking is not necessarily great for your nervous system or great for your overall health.
- [22:27]
B
Yeah, well, I was just reading the last sentence on that paragraph too that says, though the iconic image of the American mother has changed from a docile homemaker to a frenzied, sleepless working moment, the importance of this data is that time with their families has remained steady through the decades. So it's basically saying, like, we've added all this extra stuff onto our plates, working and all the extra stress of work and these other things that we want to go do with our identity and still show up equally or more with our kids and as mom. And so, like, it's funny, but not that funny that it has shifted from, like, mom's place is to be a mom, and it shifted to, like, frenzied, sleepless, working mom, which I think is relatable to a lot of us because we're still showing up just as much as mom. Plus, we're working or we're building a business or whatever else we're doing. And I think, like, that's the. Where the burnout comes from or a lot of the resentment stuff that I think comes through in parenting. And then we circle all the way back to, if you feel resentment towards your children, that's gonna cause problems in how they grow up. Like, you know, I'm not a parenting expert, but I think we've seen enough of this. And it's just obvious in the nervous system of, like, if all you feel from a parent is frustration or exhaustion or ire, that, like, they have to consider your needs, that harms a child's nervous system. Like, they wire to, I stress mom out, you know, or like, I'm the reason mom is so frustrated all the time. I'm the reason mom is so exhausted all the time. And they become people pleasers, right? Or they become self sacrificers because they don't want to be a burden on anybody as they grow up. And that's another, you know, trait that I think isn't good to obviously build into kids and that I'm cognizant of of. Like, even on the days I'm burned out or super stressed, I try not to ever have one of my sons, like, think it's even at all possible that it's because of them, you know, because it's like, I don't want them to grow up to self sacrifice or self abandon or people, please. Because they saw mom being so exhausted by their needs.
- [24:27]
A
Yeah, I think that's such a good point. I think for me, reading the article, watching the TED Talk, I mean, one, I think it was just a bit of a nod of like, yeah, you're doing a good job. Like, just because this is, you know, you're in a generation where working motherhood is very normal and mom guilt is so high, like, hey, you're doing a good job. And then the TED Talk, I think for me just solidified that I do want to make sure she has more of that unstructured playtime and free time and is okay being bored. And I'm not just putting a screen out there to make my life easier, but that I'm okay with her being bored, that I don't want to jump in and solve all her problems for her, given she's young right now. Yes. But, like, what do I want to take into my parenting as she gets older? I think it is that, like, I want her to be a problem solver and. And I think giving her that ability to problem solve is going to boost her own confidence because she can trust herself. And I think that's really, really important with this next generation is how confident are you? How is your self esteem, how is your mental health something I want to be really conscious of.
- [25:35]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I agree with all of that. And it also stirs up in my mind, like, what does that mean for us as parents? If we can. If we can kind of release ourselves from this intensive, quote, unquote intensive parenting trend where we have to be involved in everything they're doing, we have to overdo activities, and they require our involvement in everything that they do. If we release ourselves from that, like, what do we want to do with that free time? Like, and I think this is something we see in CEO Mama. Where would we take that free time and just dump it into our business, you know? And does that actually solve the holistic burnout problem for the mother? Or is what we need in order to do both things well is to have that white space in between the two where it's like, I want to do just enough in parenting that they grow up healthy and happy and resilient, and I want to do just enough in my business that my business is nice and stable. It provides for us, and I don't feel like it wags the dog. And then this in between time where I can kind of let go of being so in Both of these things so intensely, I get me back. You know, I get to be me again. I get to have leisure time that's not with my children, or I get to have alone time. I get to just have white space to be creative or whatever else, or I get to have a community again. I get to have friends and free time to go be. Because I. I also think, like, we talk so much about burnout in your business, and we don't talk as much about this kind of thing where I'm like, I'm burned out on motherhood. I love being a mother, but, like, being so intensive with it all the time burns me out there. And then, of course, that. That pulls energy from my business, because when I show up in the business, of course I'm gonna be looking for reasons why I'm burned out, or I'm already gonna be feeling burned out, and I'm gonna project it into the business. And so I think that's a super interesting loop here, too, for those of us that are entrepreneurial or any working mom, really. But it's like, if we release the grip we have on parenting and we let it be a little bit more like what we. We take this to heart, and it's like, okay, we don't. Maybe we don't need to overdo everything so much. What would you do with the free time? Or the. The free. Maybe it's not a lot of time, but it's like mental space. What would you do with that space?
- [27:40]
A
Yeah, and maybe in the same way that our kids need more unstructured play time, maybe we just need more unstructured silence and time doing nothing. Like, it's so recharging to just sit, and it's hard. It's not an easy practice. And maybe that's. That's why we need it. But, like, for me, sitting outside with my coffee doing absolutely nothing but, like, looking at the trees and thinking, it's a practice. It's not just, oh, I lose myself out there, and I come back in two hours later. No, it is a practice. No, you don't need to go get your phone. No, you don't need to go check that thing. No, you don't need to look at this. No, you don't need to go fix this. Get your mum sat back down and sit. And having that conversation with myself, that feels really important to me. Like, I notice. And when I'm in the practice of doing that, it becomes easier and easier. When I get out of the practice, even for a few days, I'm Right back at square one again. And so that's also really telling to me like just how kids need it. I think we do too.
- [28:42]
B
Yeah. I mean, how hard it is to do. And I guess it's, it is a practice and it's also, it's insidious like the distraction levers that we can pull in our lives. And it's not just like our phones, you know, it's the mental rumination on things. And so the people pleasing piece of this I feel like is important too. Where it's like, you know, I'm so used to caring for my children, I'm pulling back, I'm giving myself a little more freedom there. I'm going to pour it into somebody else. Like I'm going to go do more here, I'm going to go do more here versus like truly letting it be about you. And I think that I see that in myself and I think this multitasking thing has become a place where we actually feel bad if we're not using time productively. I feel that way and I'm like, who am I trying to please by using my time productively? Like who? Like there's this overlord in my life that's like, oh you, you spent an hour on non productive time today, Lindsay. Like that's not good. Like someone's watching that, you know. And I think that's the piece where it is the magic of if you can give yourself that time back. It's not calculatable in terms of revenue or all these other things we like to track, but it, it is the magic piece of like I think we all can agree if we had more of that time, we'd be more creative in the business, we'd be better leaders, we'd show up more present in our relationship. Like we know that the downstream effect exists, but we have such a hard time doing it for ourselves and we don't see. At least I don't feel like I see a lot of models of people doing that where like I see so many people model productivity and like using every hour that you have productively to create some like to produce something versus like just be with yourself.
- [30:19]
A
My God. And the need to the feeling of needing to be productive when you've got child care because it's a waste if not.
- [30:26]
B
I mean that's real. We should call that out like that. I know you, you and I are agreement on this but like I calculate every hour in terms of like the investment I've made for that hour in child care, you know, and I'm like, did I generate at least enough to make up for the childcare I paid for? You know, and it's like that's a slippery slope into doom. Because that's not. I mean, yeah, because it's just like one, like then I'm making my kids a financial calculation which just isn't, I don't think, a good practice. And two, it makes me feel shitty for taking using time for myself when I need that time in order to show up well in the revenue generating activities that I do do, you know, and so we've talked so much about childcare, but I feel like childcare is one of those things where we perceive it in so many different ways. But there is a lot of guilt around using childcare on things that are for just you like a luxury. But it, it's so important too. And, and what you just said of like having leisure time that you do the thing you want to do, it's not a kid based leisure time activity, I think sounds good, but it's hard to implement. You know, like for me, my leisure time is like, I want to go to a yoga class or I want to go see friends. And like my kids can't come to those things with me. So those I would have to pay to have someone watch them or, you know, or they could stay home with dad. But these little cycles of like, oh, I'm paying someone so I can go pay to be at this yoga class, like it, the mental math starts to add up totally.
- [31:50]
A
And for me it's not even the financial side, but like there'll be times where I've got childcare and sometimes all I want to do is on housewives and go lie in bed. I'm like, this is so unproductive. And like you could be spending this time with Noemi. And I'm like, and I just want to lie in bed and watch housewives and giving myself permission to do that, like it's such a mental conversation. It's so fascinating.
- [32:15]
B
Well, I was going to say, I think it's funny because I think in the 70s, you know, like when all this like where we're comparing everything to one, like they didn't have as much entertainment options, right. But they, what they had that we don't have is like the village, like they had the church groups and the neighborhood and the friends and the neighbors. And so I feel like they got that like that kind of social. I think what we look for in like TV and things like that is that social hit or like the social Emotional villagey, like, human connection. Like, what we really want is human connection in that moment.
- [32:49]
A
But I just want my brain to turn off, honestly. Yeah, I don't want anything except brain deadness.
- [32:55]
B
Brain deadness.
- [32:56]
A
Like, I don't wanna. I just want to be brain dead. I just want to zone out and watch Housewives and just like, let my brain switch off and relax.
- [33:05]
B
So do you feel like if you like. Well, you kind of have this. I mean, I'm interested in like. Like, I know we can't know for sure, but if we were back in the 70s, we didn't have phones, we didn't have social media, we didn't have a million channels on tv, didn't have Real Housewives, but we did have a really great friend group that lived in the neighborhood or we had a church group or like some type of community, a village, like, going and seeking that out when you were overwhelmed or when you had time alone or. Or like bringing your kids to that. And all the kids are out playing in somebody's backyard and you're just sitting there chatting with a group of women. Like, is that what we're missing? And then that's the void we're trying to fill.
- [33:41]
A
Yeah, I have that in abundance.
- [33:43]
B
Yeah.
- [33:44]
A
But I don't recharge around other people. I recharge on my own.
- [33:49]
B
Yeah.
- [33:49]
A
So I love doing stuff like that. And we did that over the weekend. It was great. Like, we do it a lot. I will say it makes parenting easier when the kids are all playing together and you can sit and have adult conversation and enjoy your coffee or have a wine, whatever. I have a big village and I feel like I'm really filled up from that element. But I don't get energized by being with people. Like, I'm so introverted by nature that I have to be alone and then I feel energized.
- [34:17]
B
That makes sense. It's interesting because as you were talking about that, I remember another piece of this article was talking about how having smaller families has given us more intensive time too. Because you could kind of be alone if you had a lot of kids, because they all had each other. But now if you only have one or two kids, you basically have to be involved in everything they're doing. And I'm like, oh, interesting too. Like, as family sizes have gotten smaller, has that created truly less alone time for the mom? Because you don't just have this gaggle of kids that are all kind of taking care of and entertaining each other. They. They are more one on one Focused with you. I don't know. That's interesting. I don't family, but, I mean, I'm.
- [34:58]
A
One of eight, and I can definitely testify to that being the case. Like, we would all play with each other.
- [35:03]
B
Yeah. The recharging piece, I mean, I think that's a big piece, like, undercurrent for a lot of the people we know and ourselves around. I could take up every hour of the day doing something productive or something for my kids or something for somebody else. Like, I've built my life in a way where there's a lot of people that need me and that I could contribute to, you know, and so it's like, I'm always weighing alone time or recharging versus getting further ahead on the list of all the things I need to do. And I think that mental calculation is really hard to choose yourself. And we see it so much. I mean, that conversation comes up so much in CEO Mama, where it's like, I want to choose myself, and I desperately need to choose myself based on my level of burnout and frustration or kind of malaise or, like, just lack of desire to do this business anymore, whatever it is. It's like, well, is it really the business or is it that you just don't. You don't have recharge time? Like, you don't have alone time? It's interesting.
- [36:02]
A
Yeah.
- [36:02]
B
No, it's diagnosing myself over here. I'm like, actually, I feel like I could go forever as long as I get alone time. And alone time's been such a theme for me recently, in the last several months, because it's like I hear myself say I would rather work because it's just such a. I don't know, it's like, such a big part of my identity. But I know what I need is alone time in order to do better work and in order to be more connected in my relationship, a better mom.
- [36:27]
A
Yeah. Last week, Steven was out all week, and I was solo parenting. And I just come off the back of a bunch of trips, like, tons of stuff with work. And as much as I missed him when he came back at the weekend, I was so recharged and, like, in a good mood and just so energized. And I think it was because, yes, I was solo parenting side and mornings and evenings with Noemi, but I love that. Like, it felt great. I had support during the day I was working, but when Noemi was in bed, it was just me. And I was only tidying up after one person. It was just me and that was so recharging to me. When he came back, I just felt amazing. And it was such a signal to me of, like, I don't need to, like, fully get away and be without Noemi or whatever. But I think I. I do need that alone time. I do need that, like, the quiet house, the silence in bed. Like, I do need that every now and then to feel my best self.
- [37:26]
B
No, I've. I've ranted on this recently. I think you've heard me. Alone time in your own house is, like, such a gift, and I think we overlook it as how nourishing it can be of just being able to be in your own domain, watch your show, and not have to care. Like, either kids are asleep or. Or, yeah, they're out of the house, but that you can kind of shut off caring brain or doing brain and just being like, I'm gonna putz around. I might watch a show. I might test out a bunch of new makeup. I might, like, throw away half my closet because I'm inspired.
- [37:55]
A
Yes.
- [37:56]
B
But it's just that, like, unstructured alone time. But you're in your comfort zone. I think that's the thing, like, so much of, like, oh, recharge. Like. Like, go get a massage. Like, go on a walk. I'm like, I don't want to. I want to just be in my own freaking house and, like, be with my stuff, but I don't want anybody else around me.
- [38:13]
A
Yeah. No, I felt great after that. Me and Noemi just had a routine down. You know, I'd get out, we'd go on an evening sunset walk. I'd come back, make dinner. We'd eat. You know, like, she had less screen time that week than probably she normally has, and she. You know, we don't do a lot of it, but I was like, whoa. When I've got this routine and rhythm down, it feels really good. And by the time he came back, I missed him, and I was so ready for him to be back. But having that was like, oh, yeah. I just needed that recharge time, and that felt so good. So, speaking of this conversation, what do you feel like? Because I feel like we've just mentally processed so much. What do you feel like is your biggest takeaway?
- [38:53]
B
I mean, I think I need to continue to double down on that, like, void time, where I'm not actively parenting, but I'm also not filling it with work of any kind. And because I think I have taken time over the last. Since we moved into this house, I've tried To do exactly what this is talking about of, like, more unstructured time for my kids. Because I think I was getting kind of screen dependent. When they would get bored and I wanted to work, I'd be like, fine screen, you know, And I. I really don't like that trajectory. So I've done a good job of that. But what I haven't done a good job of is, like, I had mine. I was solo parenting over the weekend too, and we ran a bunch of errands. It was so fun. And then they were outside playing, and my immediate inclination was, like, get my laptop and check, like, go through some inbox stuff versus, like, hey, they're outside for an hour playing. They're safe. I could do what I want right now. So I think for me, it's more like being in the practice. Like, you're saying, like, really practicing non distracted, non externally working time and just being with myself and letting it unfold. Maybe it is putzing around in my bathroom, playing with makeup, or it's a household task or something. I did clean our storage room, and that was like a whole unstructured task that I just, like, put in my day. But it felt really good to get that done. And it's like, oh, there's so many of those things around my house where I'll never budget that time into a day, but if I just let it unfold. And I'm like, oh, our storage room now, like, I. I wanted to get the Christmas stuff out, so I took an hour to get out one box, and I reorganized the whole room. And now I just feel so much better. And it's like one of those nagging things, but I would have never prioritized it. And so. So, yeah, I think it's that for me, is using that in between time and not letting being in the practice of letting it be unstructured. What about you?
- [40:38]
A
I really like that. So mine I came up with last night because we watched that documentary, and then we both sat and debriefed afterwards. And the thing that we came to together was, okay, we feel this way about Noemi not. Not being reliant on a screen. We don't want her to have a phone and social and all that stuff. But what are we modeling? Because we work on our phones. And so we made the decision that we are really gonna limit even having our phones around us when Noemi's there. Which, listen, like, I hear some people saying, I wake up and I don't look at my phone till nine. All that stuff, like, I Think that's great for me, that doesn't work. You know, I run a big company, and so does Steven. And so when I wake up, it's really important that I check, is there a fighter that's needed? You don't have an international team. And so I'm not going to get rid of that. Like, it's very, very normal for me to be on slack, you know, the crack of dawn. And I will. If there's something that needs my attention, I'll look at it. But what we decided was, you know, we always wake up early because Noemi's a really early bird. We have those 10 minutes while she's waking up where we check our phone and we both see if there's any kind of emergencies that are needed from us with the company. Because if we don't do that, I don't care how far away my phone is, my nervous system is gonna be thinking, like, okay, is there a fire I need to deal with? So we get those 10 minutes while she's waking up. Then let's say that's at 5:36am Then the phone goes down until her nanny gets here. More on the nanny situation. Another episode. But in an ideal world. So when her nanny gets here, we can go shower, get ready, phone's out, get to work, all that stuff. And then end of the day, when her nanny leaves, we put the phone away. We don't even look at it till bedtime. I mean, generally I won't look at it before bedtime anyway. Like, that doesn't come up so much for me with the company. But we're gonna do it that way. And I just feel like I need to model better if that's the example I want to set and that those are the boundaries I want to have with her. So we're trying it. We did it this morning, we're going to be doing it tonight. Like, not trying to be perfect, but I want to be better.
- [42:35]
B
Yeah, that's smart. I mean, I think that's been studied a lot, too. I'm sure the documentary. We should link the documentary in here, because I want to watch it, too, because I know that's been studied. Of, like, they see you on your phone and it imprints on their brain. Like, they're so impressionable. And even Sawyer will sometimes be like, well, how come I can't have screen time? You have your screen. And I'm like, shit. Like, they get to a point where they can also throw it back. So, yeah, I need to be better about it, too. I Know, we have this in our in CEO mama resources, but there's also like whole apps and programs and like lock boxes you can buy now that you can like put your phone in and it monitors how long your phone, like, is out of your proximity. Which I think is so interesting that, like, we need that. I know that we need that. Yeah. That a business exists where it's like, hey, you pay us to lock your phone up from you so that you can have non phone time with your kids. But, like, we need it.
- [43:27]
A
I know. I mean, I kind of really resist the idea that I don't have enough willpower and need that, but I've seen, seen it and thought would be a good idea. And I feel like I need to have enough mental resilience myself to know that if my phone's in another room, I'm not looking at it for a couple hours and I'm not going to go in. And I think I like to challenge myself mentally like that. So maybe that's just me and like a lockbox could be a good situation, but for me, I do better with a mental challenge, a mental task.
- [43:55]
B
I don't know. I think for me I might have to lock it up because I can always talk myself into why I broke the rule.
- [44:01]
A
Yeah, but isn't that like, when you can talk yourself back out of it? Like the mental, mental resilience you build there? Yeah, I think is really important.
- [44:09]
B
That's true. Yeah, that's a good point. I like this. Maybe we need to do a little challenge for everybody on, like, let's do a challenge.
- [44:16]
A
Also, like, this is the way I think about it with myself. Like, the phone's another room and I don't want to touch it for a couple hours. Like, sometimes I will go a full weekend without it. I haven't done that for a couple months, but the last time I did, I didn't want to touch it on Monday morning. I was, like, repulsed by it, but I don't want to touch it. So I'll turn it off. But then I'm like, well, let me just turn it on and do xyz and the excuses pop up and I literally say to myself, like, do you really want to be the person that cannot stick to a goal you've made? That's important. Do you really want to be the person that can talk yourself out of anything? I'm like, on it with like, I'm.
- [44:50]
B
Like, mindset coaching yourself. Yeah. Yeah.
- [44:53]
A
Because I want. I want to be the person that can set a goal and stick to it and then have trust that I can stick to it because I feel like that trust builds a lot of my own confidence. And I don't think confidence is ever a done deal. I think we have to work on this constantly. So for me, I really like to challenge myself in ways that I know will result in higher confidence.
- [45:12]
B
Okay, I like that. I think we should do a challenge because I need to be better about it. And like there's no excuse on like evenings, like we're not in a launch, you know, I, I think there's also all those, like life has seasons and I'm sure there's seasons where we have to be a little bit more attentive to stuff after hours and things like that. But there's no, no reason to talk yourself into it when you know there's nothing urgent or the world's not going to burn down. The business isn't going to burn down if you're away from your phone for an hour or two. And I do think that's also to the thing around like the entrepreneurial mindset of which we also talk so much about, which isn't what this episode's about, but I think it's important to note, which is like, if your business can't survive without you for a couple hours, you got a whole host of other problems, my friend. Like we can't be using the excuse of I have to check in on my business or it's something critical is going to happen, obviously, like a laundry, you know those times, it's okay. But if your business truly can't go without you for a few hours, there's something else wrong. Even if you don't own the business, like if work can't go without you for a couple hours, I would really question what's going on there, you know, because it's that dependency or like that level of just stress or vigilance, like the vigilance of that in your nervous system. To have to be that vigilant constantly is going to put you into flight fight or flight forever. Like that. That is not good for your nervous system.
- [46:30]
A
Totally. And like there is always going to be fires. But me and Stephen were talking about last night, he has a UK based company and yours has a lot, a very client facing company. And in that situation you have to be responsive. And so the agreement we had was like, yeah, we'll have those quick 10 minutes on a morning just to check everything is good. If one of us has a fire or whatever, permission to just go tackle it head on, get it dealt with. So then you can come back and be present versus when you're trying to be all in on family time. And then you're periodically going and checking your phone. Mentally you are elsewhere anyway. But out of like, no, this is family time. I'm gonna stick with it. Versus. Can I just have 20 minutes to go deal with this fire, then I'll be back. We're gonna try and start having those agreements with each other. So I don't know.
- [47:16]
B
It's new.
- [47:16]
A
We'll try it.
- [47:17]
B
Yeah, you have to report back because I think we have to be reasonable. Such a good challenge. Yeah, it is.
- [47:23]
A
But we have to be reasonable as entrepreneurs. Not like, oh, I wake up and I don't touch my phone till 10:00am like, okay, great. But I run a big company. Like, that's not realistic. Honestly, like, I want to make sure everything's fine and I'm not going to be the owner. That is just completely pieced out when there's something going on. That's not the way I like to be part of my company. And he feels the same way. So we'll test it. But I'm excited.
- [47:43]
B
Although you do have nerves of steel, I will say we had a little snafu with our URL over the weekend and you were calm as a cucumber. So I don't know, maybe you. You have something to teach us in how to. On the other aspect of this of like, even when an emergency happens, it's all going to be okay. It doesn't need to set you off into a panic.
- [48:02]
A
Well, that's just. I think your nervous system window of tolerance, like my window of tolerance is so wide.
- [48:08]
B
Yeah.
- [48:09]
A
Because I've just, I have the experience.
- [48:11]
B
Of so many years, let's put it that way.
- [48:17]
A
So I have a strong wide tolerance window.
- [48:21]
B
Yeah. Which we did. We have a really great episode on that. I'm just gonna plug that because I think that that plays into this. Of like, if you feel like you have major anxiety trying to do a challenge like this, there's. You can go do some nervous system work on the window of tolerance. And what is in the business that causes that level of anxiety where you feel like you can't put it down for a couple hours? Because I think that's another thing that we've talked so much about, but I see a lot is like this hyper dependency vigilance, like anxiety level around. They can't do it without me. It won't be okay without me. And then you're almost so distracted by the Anxiety, you can't be present. And so it just, like you just said, if you're distracted by the anxiety, you might as well just be working because you're not present anyway, versus, like, if you can compartmentalize, go deal with the thing and set it aside and come back. But that takes like, you have a nervous system of steel because you've seen so many things and you've worked so hard on being able to compartmentalize. And I think that I love this challenge, and I think it's going to be hard for. It's hard for me even to think about. I'm sure it's hard for a lot of people that haven't done the nervous system work. So I like.
- [49:28]
A
Yeah. And I think it also is important to say, because the nervous system work is so important. And I also want to be very honest in a sense of. I have been doing this for over a decade, and so I have a lot of experience as a business owner. There's most things I have seen before and have dealt with before. And so I kind of. I know what, like, I can already project, like, how big of a deal something is going to be and what my contingency plan will be. So I think experience really helps. And then something else. I was actually talking to James Wedmore about this, which, by the way, you guys, if you haven't listened to our episodes with him, I would really recommend that because they're incredible about a conversation you and I had had. I kind of brought this up with the team today where I can't remember the exact wording you said, but you said something like, sometimes, you know, you don't. Doesn't feel like you bring your emotion into work. And I don't necessarily see that vulnerable side of you. Like, do you hide that away? Like, what is that? And I sat with it, and my honest answer was, it isn't there, you know, that emotional side of me. I don't bring it into my business. And I was talking to James Wedmore about it, and I was saying, do you have this. Have you felt this? Like, I can try and bring it in sometimes, but I don't want to do it in a way that's performative. But I just have been in this business for a while, and he said what often happens and it happened to him was you become, yeah, kind of disconnected from your business, but not in a bad way. In a way of when you've hit a lot of your milestones, you become disconnected from needing a certain outcome to happen and being so reliant. On that certain outcome to be happy, to be stable, to be secure, to be safe, whatever it is. And I was talking to him about that and we were comparing, like, actually, we have. We both have very, very similar feelings. Because the truth of the matter is the next milestone isn't going to make a big difference to my life. You know, the next five milestones aren't going to make a massive material difference to my life. I already feel like I've hit that enough point in all the different areas. And so I'm like, the hook has been taken out of my nervous system to my business. Like, it doesn't. It's not there so much. And so I think that's really important to say because if you are in the earlier stages of your business, I don't know that the nervous system work is going to replace that. Because, yeah, those milestones actually directly do influence your safety, your security, your ability to do this for a living. It's gonna have that big impact. And I think even the best nervous system work isn't gonna help you disconnect from that. So I just, like, love being honest about that. And for any founders that are listening, that do relate, that are like, oh, should I be bringing more emotion? Should I feel more rattled by this? I think no. Like, you're motivated by different things. And so that. That's something that I've, by talking to other founders, have brought awareness to, but I had to do inquiries. So, like, what is that? And so that's so good.
- [52:21]
B
I'm glad you shared that because I think that's such a nuance of it. That is so real. And there's no timeline. Right. You can't necessarily point to the day of, like, well, on this day, that was enough time. And now I'm not rattled by. It's just the cumulative effect of all the things you've been through and the way you've managed it. And I think that's. People are always looking for, like, well, what easy button do I push, Natalie, so that I can set my phone aside and not feel panicked by my business? And it's. There's nervous system work you can do, but, yeah, you don't. There's no. There's not a formula. Right. It's like, it's a journey that you've been on. I think that's such an important insight. It's good for me to hear, too. There's like, real talk. Cause I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, it doesn't mean that because we're having, like, an Insanely good year at Boss Babe this year. And I feel like sometimes I'm like, oh, are you seeing this? Like, it's so insanely good. And you're like, yeah, it's amazing. And like, I like, this is just the business. Like, this is. Nothing is outsized, good or bad, because I've seen so many things and I get to be in the moment with it. But it's not like I'm not going to make an overly big deal out of anything good or bad because that, that then I, then everything rattles me. And that's a good lesson for me, managing inside the business. Because I'm like, oh yeah, okay. We don't get rattled by huge things and we don't get rattled by bad things. Like, it's just we want to keep a consistent freedom based business that is calm in the nervous system. And you cannot let either outsized good or bad rattle you because then calm is harder to get back to. And I think ultimately we all want to choose calm over everything else. And I think you are very calm in the business. It's a good learning thing for me, but also for people to hear, I think is like, you get to a point where you can be calm with your business and you are there and it allows for some of these practices to become easier. And so how do we get to some of these challenges to be able to set our phone aside? Well, it's like you, you also get to practice being calm in the business.
- [54:15]
A
And I think that is important for founders. You know, you're not going to have that in the beginning and it's going to be scrappy and it's going to be hustling and it's going to take you a bit of time to get there. But I do think as founders that is very important to be that steady sail in the wind.
- [54:30]
B
Yeah, well, you do a good job with that.
- [54:32]
A
Yeah. I just think it was a really, really important thing. Like if we think about the big fire that we had on Saturday, if I came to that situation and I was angry, if I was super anxious about what could happen to the business, if I was catastrophizing, how would that have helped you to solve the problem?
- [54:52]
B
Yeah, no, it's true. And like thinking because it was me and one and Karen, one of our teammates and, and we spent like five hours, her and I figuring it out. And I was like the whole time I'm, I'm going. You. You knew I was doing those mental gymnastics, you know? Cause it's like, and, and so you knew you didn't have to, and you never brought that energy in. And looking back on it afterwards, I'm like, I'm so glad that you didn't bring that in, because I was already stressing enough, you know, Like, I. I care just as much about the business as you do. I was obviously going to work until we figured it out. And, yeah, you putting stressful energy into the situation would not have made it better. But I think, like, I was thinking about myself. I'm like, God, if I had been in Natalie's shoes, I would I have been able to stay that calm? Like, I don't think so. And so I. I noted that I said that to Karen. I was like, this is crazy. Like, I think if it had been me, I would have been stressed. Like, I would have been putting stress into the situation. And that's a huge learning for me, you know, helping lead the business. Because I'm like, okay, this is a good example of it's nobody's fault. Like, something just happened, and we had to. But it was a big thing to figure out. And adding stress to the situation to two competent people who were already in the midst of figuring it out, and you knew we were going to figure it out.
- [56:03]
A
Well, adds, like, necessarily know that.
- [56:05]
B
Right? But it adds. No, like, it doesn't add any. It's like whipping a horse that's already at a full gallop in a race. You're like, it's. They're already going full speed. Whipping them isn't going to help, you know, and that. That restraint. But I, like, I truly did look back on that experience and debrief with Karen and be like, that's. So she didn't add any stress to the situation. That's so interesting, because if it had been me as the leader of a business, I probably would have added stress to the situation. That's huge learning experience. So, like, a little insight into the world of boss babe. But I think it's human nature, especially as the leader of a business, to add when something goes wrong, to get involved and add stress to it. And I think it takes a lot of practice, like you've said, to not do that. And I think that's the exception, not the rule. And so that's a good learning for leaders of businesses where it's like, is adding stress to the situation right now actually going to help anything? If no, then can you resist doing it?
- [57:00]
A
And you can always look for blame and you can always shame. And it's like, okay, for what reason am I Looking for a reason to fire someone? No. Like, am I going to do anything if someone was found at fault? No. Because even if it was somebody's fault, it was a mistake by an incredibly competent, incredible team of a players. Like, oh, wow, that proves that we're all human. Like, no, if it was a mistake, nothing. This even was a mistake. But the way that I think about mistakes and things like that, if it was a mistake by someone who was constantly making mistake after mistake after mistake, and I'm like, you know what? The next time they're out, then I'm going to go find blame in the situation. I'm like, you know what? We're done. I always think about situations like that too. Like, do I really need to even be thinking about whether someone dropped the ball here? Is that even relevant? If it's not, then just moving on. But I will say the downside to that, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but yes, I think I can handle stressful situations well. And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna pile it on. One thing that I will say just for any founder that's listening, is like, what should I do in that situation? I don't know what you should do, but what I do in that situation is. And then you'll probably see this a couple times in the chat. The thing that I'm most concerned about is and stating like, that outcome. And so that was one thing that I was most concerned about. And I stated it twice just to make sure that it was. I felt like it was fully heard and communicated, but it wasn't like, it was just, this is the thing, it wasn't, oh, we need to da, da, da, da, da, Whatever. That's one way I'll do it. But I'm curious for you. I will say, yes, I can handle that well. But then also, in a situation where something goes amazingly well, I'm also not going to be in there like, oh my God, stop everything. Let's celebrate.
- [58:42]
B
What?
- [58:42]
A
Let's go, like, and just going balls to the walls, not celebrating. Yes, I'll celebrate. But also it's like, okay, great. Like, we all did our jobs really well. Like, let's keep going. Like, I will celebrate, but I won't make a massive deal out of hitting goals or, you know, big catastrophes. It's just like, this is business and we get to all be in it.
- [59:05]
B
Yeah, no, I think that, that. And you told me that early on where, where you said, like, I've gotten to a place where exactly what you Just said like, we good job. We all did our jobs really well. Congratulations. This is an incredible result. And you know, tomorrow is another day in the business. And I think for me it's like, maybe it's like not working with a players, I don't know where, where there's just this expectation of celebration or expectation of really commending people for doing what was already expected of them.
- [59:36]
A
Participation trophies.
- [59:37]
B
Yeah, I guess that's a nice way of saying it where you're like, congratulations, you put the toilet seat down. That's an expectation I have of living here. You don't get a reward for that, you know, and so it's like the.
- [59:47]
A
TEDx talk also said we should stop giving kids participation trophies. And I'm all in for that.
- [59:52]
B
Yeah, but it's so interesting from the founder perspective and I think even solopreneur perspective, where it's like, if you let your nervous system go haywire, bad or good, you get to a point where like, most days are neither bad or good. Right. Most days are just like keeping the bills paid and the train on the rails. And so I get it, you know, and I think it's been, it's learning for me inside of a much bigger business with a much big, bigger team than I've ever had, where it's like, okay, there's managing people and rewarding people and like each individual needs their reward in a different way. You know, like commending good work versus a huge celebration for achieving something that we set out to achieve anyway. That's been, that's been learning for me in terms of nervous system management, because it's like, I think we also are. And I said this to you after we had a huge launch a couple weeks ago, and I was like, I feel a little bit like the kid who's like, I want mom to tell me I did a good job. You know, and that's me, not that's my own needs, not necessarily what's best for the business. And I'm like, oh, this is so interesting. Like, this is my little inner child wanting to be told I did a good job when I know I did a good job based on the results of the business. Like, you know, and so there's also that piece into it where we tie this all back together. And it's like, oh yeah, were we also raised where we were, you know, we were over parented in the 70s and 80s and 90s to a point where now even as adults, as millennial adults, we're very much focused on getting commended or like, our achievements being recognized. And I think we can even do that to ourselves in our business, where it's like, I want to celebrate that. I did. I did what I said I was going to do. And having this awareness around like, well, yeah, you achieved the goal you set out to achieve. Good job. Like, you did what you said you were going to do. You don't deserve a special reward for that. I don't. This is so fascinating. I love this conversation because I'm like, oh, shit. I still have, like, a lot of wiring around achievement and around wanting to be told that I did a good job for achieving something. And that is so like little Lindsay that has. That bears nothing on the business, you know. Interesting.
- [61:55]
A
No, it's. It's so fascinating and I think has found us. We do have to really show people we appreciate them and we have to make sure people feel that. And I. I don't think we should take it too far.
- [62:06]
B
Yeah.
- [62:07]
A
Because then, you know, if everyone gets a bonus every single time they hit a goal, that and KPI that was pre agreed that they would be heading to get the current salary or bonus that they're on. Where does it end? You know, like, yeah, just like, where does it end? That's the way I see it as like, okay, there's such a balance. And I also feel like I've learned that because I would do that in the beginning and then I would have people coming to me where this is. Let's just say this is just a salary conversation, which I know this is not. But coming to me that are already being paid so far beyond, you know, market rate, and they agreed, if I go to this salary level, here's the goals I'm going to hit. Okay, great. But then I'm constantly, you know, I've had people come to those conversations with printouts of the praise I've given them. But look, I hit all of my goals like, it's time for a salary increase. And it was like, but you hit the pre. Agreed. So what's next? And so it's like, I think I've just had so many situations like that also that I just feel like I don't know the right balance. I certainly don't feel like I have the right balance, but it's just all information and learning, like, okay, how do we do this? What is the right balance? How do we make sure people are feeling appreciated and at the same time hold people accountable? Like, I think that's such a fine line, and I definitely don't have it right. But, yeah, there's definitely a fine line, but I think a lot of it can start with nervous system regulation on your own side as a founder, to be able to run a business that.
- [63:27]
B
Feels calm well, I think even without a team, exactly what you just said is the place to start, because it still shows up the same way even if you don't have a team. Where I think it's like, you achieve something and then you want to, like, not have to work, you know, or something where, like, oh, I hit my goal. Now I don't have to work again. And it's like, no, tomorrow, you got to keep going. I mean, just because you hit it today, it's still a business. Like, there's still the next day that comes where all the same stuff has to happen again, and all the same accountability and commitments are there. And so I relate to this a lot. I feel like all of our conversations are like little master classes and inner work. Like, oh, yeah. I remember feeling this way even as a solopreneur, where I'd land a big client. Usually when I would get a big client and they would sign the deal, and then the next day I'm like, I don't have to work. I'm going to take today off because I landed a big client yesterday. I'm like, whoa, today's day one of delivering for that client, you know, like, so that mindset of reward or letting it become a big thing versus just staying calm and neutral in the nervous system is such a huge piece of being in business.
- [64:35]
A
Yeah. And it always, for me, it always comes back to, like, what's your enough point? When it's good, good enough. Because, like, even when we were in a meeting, I think it was last week, I can't remember who said it was like, oh, yeah. And then we'll hit this Black Friday Cyber Monday goal, and, like, here's where we'll end up at the end of the year. And I was like, well, remember, we already hit our goals for the year. Like, I love that, and I'm super excited about what's coming. And remember, we already hit that because I think I'm also very conscious of. Yes, I. I want to be ambitious, and I love that we have such an ambitious team. And I want to be so conscious that, like, we know what's good enough and we don't allow ourselves to get constantly caught up in the trap of more. And I've had to learn that lesson myself, and I always want to try and bring that into our team, too. Of, like, no I love it. And we should definitely try our best and we can't hook ourselves onto that outcome. Like, we should try our best.
- [65:24]
B
But remember, that's a huge. We should do another whole episode on that because that, that good enough. Like, what is good enough? And it's another one of these things you have to break. Just like the, what we talked about with parenting around, like constantly being involved in the kid and like good enough parenting. It's like, it's good enough. They don't need to be at every activity. Like, they don't need to come on every single thing. Like they can be bored and that's good enough. I feel like it's the same in a business where you're like, oh, but there's so much more opportunity. I could go do all these things, I could add more and also do this. And also do this. But like, it takes away from what you just said. It's like, also then we're just doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff. Is that really what we all need to be doing? Is that what's best for the customer? And ultimately, like, we did hit our goals. So. So doing more. What's the why and is it worth taxing the whole system for more? And are we all on the same page with that decision? It's a good question.
- [66:14]
A
Yeah. And I think it's, it's so great to want to hit our potentials as individuals and as, as a company. I think that's amazing. As long as it's coming from the right place. I think that's where I always come back to of like, yeah, I don't want to just stop for the entire year and call it like, I love what I do to keep it that way. I know what I need to do, like to be in it for the long haul. I know what I need to do. So it's constant in our work.
- [66:40]
B
Yeah. I think it's also, it's that same question that you ask yourself about what's good enough and, and why more in the business is also the same thing with parenting. Like, to, to go back like we, we said that earlier of like, why am I so why do I want to do all these things? Like what. Whose measure of parenting am I living up to? Is this truly how I want to parent or is this an external comparison based thing? And it's the same in business. Right. It's like, have I already made all the money I need to make to cover my needs this year or am I chasing additional things so I can say I hit Some external goal or. Because I, I think that's what I'm supposed to do based on comparing myself to other entrepreneurs. I think it's the same theme.
- [67:19]
A
Yeah, and closing the loop on all of this too. And the AI conversation and comparison. Not to sound bleak, and I really hope we don't get there, but maybe there does become a day where most of the influencers and creators we follow online are AI and they don't have a limit to how many hours they have in a day. And we are seeing AI influencers making millions and millions of dollars and staying home with their kids 12 hours a day. No childcare, this constant play, making every single meal from scratch, zero screen time, perfect marriage, huge village friends, every single bucket at 10 out of 10 capacity, doing it while not feeling the stress or pressure at all. If that's the way things are going, which it might be. AI influencers are a thing 10 years from now. I could see it then. What are we doing now to. To prepare ourselves and our kids mentally to deal with it?
- [68:21]
B
I'm like, what am I doing? Because that freaks me out for me. Oh my God. Well, okay, that's a good leak. But no, I know, could be.
- [68:28]
A
I mean, like, I have seen AI influencers now and not realized it was AI and thought, oh my God, she's had kids, her body has get like all that stuff. And then I'm like, oh, it's an AI.
- [68:41]
B
Well, this is how all the only fans girls are going, right? Like they're all starting AI versions of themselves and then they can just post constantly and it's AI. They don't have to actually make content anymore. And I don't even know what they're doing on the back end of OnlyFans to do all the DMing. But like it's coming for sure in that way too, where it's just total unrealistic in every aspect of life and interactions.
- [69:01]
A
It's coming. Yeah, it's coming for sure. I mean, if you think about the 2000s, right, there was such a movement on. We were constantly comparing ourselves to women we saw in magazines that were airbrushed to perfection. And all of a sudden we were critiquing everything about our appearance, our skin, our hair, every. Our teeth, every single detail. Because we were comparing ourselves to real people who had been airbrushed, whether we like it or not. The next era of that is us comparing ourselves to AI that is fully computer generated. And are we seeing this mum that is doing every single thing while looking like a supermodel, while Looking like she's never had any kids and she's got eight AI kids. Like, if that's where it's going, I just want to be mentally strong enough to handle it.
- [69:52]
B
Yeah.
- [69:53]
A
Sorry to end on a bleak note, but like, I, I don't know, I like to, I like to future cast and think about what. Where is AI going? Where is the creator economy going? And I am mentally preparing myself that it might be going in that direction. And I don't wanna, I don't wanna have a mental breakdown when it happens.
- [70:08]
B
Yeah. And God, not even like to think about what it means for all of our businesses. No. It's crazy. I, I'm, I wanna look more into that because I, I see it with, you know, like, I literally have seen the onlyfans girls starting up AIs and all of a sudden, like overnight have millions of followers on AI accounts that are completely. And I'm just like, doesn't the consumer realize this is not a real human? But it doesn't care. They don't care. And that's the thing. Yeah. So that, that raises a big question. And also like 10 years from now, will you even be able to tell that it's not human? You know, that it's not a real person? And that's. Yeah. For our kids, nervous systems, it's like, that's where it starts to get really scary of like, they wouldn't even realize that this isn't. That it's not attainable because it's AI. So they think it's a real human and then it sets an impossible standard and creates all kinds of mental health issues.
- [70:56]
A
So many of them that I've seen, I actually don't. I couldn't tell it's AI if it was. If it didn't tell me, I wouldn't have known.
- [71:02]
B
Okay, well, I want to see these and have an offline conversation because I'm a little, I'm like, wait, no, no, not like influencers. I mean, I've seen like, what. Oh my God.
- [71:14]
A
Maybe I don't show you right now.
- [71:16]
B
Maybe I don't want to get my feed filled with these people. But I'm like, are we talking like, you know, like living on a farm with milk cows and eight kids?
- [71:24]
A
No, that's me. Future casting. What I think is going to happen. But what I, what I'm saying, I am seeing as influencers where I can't tell that they're AI, but I'm future casting. Is this going to be the future? Like, if we love watching the lives of influencers and vloggers and all of this. What's to say that there wouldn't be a business in literally some guy sitting behind his computer? Like, I love watching Lydia Millen vlogs. I love the British countryside. And, like, just watching her putz about, Like, I love it. What if some guy is sitting behind his computer and he's like, oh, this Lydia Millen, she's popping off. People want more of this. Let me create Shmidia Millen and I'm gonna, like, create this vlog. And instead of, you know, we have to wait for Lydia to upload once a week, this lady is gonna upload every single day. You get the email. Like, how do we not know that's coming? We don't.
- [72:12]
B
In fact, it probably is coming. Like, that's what we can assume based on technology. Right? So, yeah.
- [72:16]
A
So how are we protecting our businesses? That's what I'm thinking about. And how are we protecting our mental health? And how are we protecting our kids? Because shit's coming. Okay, well, on that note.
- [72:27]
B
On that note, I mean, that's a lot to digest in one episode. I feel like now I'm like, oh, my God, I want to go see this AI world. But, yeah, we'll just have to keep talking. We'll report back too, on everything we talked about. Because I think these are important conversations and it's the real, real. And as always with CEO Mama, you know, we're like, we bring these things into your awareness because we want to also help you solve them. And so, hint, hint, we've got a CEO Mama membership opening. Yeah. And these are the kind of conversations we want to help you not only have, but also solve with tools and templates and things like that. So it's bossfave.com ceomama to fill out the application. You're reviewing applications, like, every week. Right.
- [73:09]
A
So I'm actually doing a big sweep this through Thursday, so definitely get the application in. So you've got maybe five days from hearing this where we're going to start to send offers out to founding members. I'm really, really excited about that. We have so many amazing women. And here's the thing. I mean, Lindsay, are not the experts. We are not trying to solve your problems here. But we do have an amazing network of experts. And so it's people that we really want to bring in and learn from ourselves that, like, we are putting together the most incredible roster and the place that you wish you had and you wish existed. You know, the society is a freaking powerhouse. Tool for entrepreneurs. Every entrepreneur should be in it, in my opinion. I mean, there's over 60 done for you templates, the most robust curriculum, all of it, incredible community. The one thing that's missing is the community for mums and, and the inner work and the parenting and tackling mum guilt and all the things that we freaking deal with whether we like it or not. So that's coming. So business curriculum will always stay inside of society, but the motherhood stuff will be in see your mama. And if you're a member of society already, still apply for see your mama. But know you will be getting an insane deal if you're already a member of society. We want to make it an absolute no brainer. And so, you know, the cost is close to nothing every month to just add this onto your membership. I'm excited.
- [74:30]
B
Yeah, it's gonna be so awesome. And we linked the newsletter. We also just started sending a CEO Mama weekly newsletter that's like, it's so good. It's so deep on these topics and has lots of resources, links, things that we're thinking about, tools that we use. So it's linked at the bottom of the show notes here. You can get on the newsletter list too. We'd love to have you in conversation with us that way too.
- [74:51]
A
So it's called unfiltered. It should be called unhinged, but anyway.
- [74:55]
B
Hey, we could change it. We're still in the early days. See your mama unhinged.
- [74:59]
A
It's kind of CEO Mama after dark.
- [75:03]
B
But we find a way to bring only fans into most episodes.
- [75:06]
A
Oh, my God, I love it. We really do. We have an obsession.
- [75:09]
B
Well, it's because the business model is just so fascinating to me. Oh my God, the margins.
- [75:15]
A
Anyway, no, I love this for them. Okay, well, great chat. Yeah, the links are all below. We'll see you guys next week.
- [75:21]
B
Bye.
- [75:26]
C
Okay, I have some really exciting news about CEO Mama.
- [75:29]
B
So those of you that have followed.
- [75:30]
C
Along for a while know that we have a CEO Mama mastermind, which is for ambitious mamas in the seven or eight or even some nine figure range in their businesses. And we love this program and we'll continue to run this program. But we have also heard the feedback that it would be amazing to have something from CEO Mama that was at a lower price point and accessible to anybody at any stage of business and brought the community and the resources and the tools that we have at the higher level in CEO Mama to a bigger community. So we've heard you and we are so excited to announce the CEO MAMA membership. It is launching early 2025, but we have founding member applications open right now. So you can go to bossbabe.com ceomama that's bossbabe.com ceomAMA and fill out your founding member application and we will be in touch shortly with more details. And I really, really hope to see you in there. We're so excited about this program. This is one of my biggest passions. Inside of Boss Babe is the CEO Mama brand and the community of ambitious mamas in here who are trying to do both things well, who really want to find that harmony between their devotion to motherhood and their ambition and their businesses. So if that sounds interesting to you, make sure you go fill out your founding member application@bossfave.com ceomama. Can't wait to see you in there.