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the bossbabe podcast
441: The Bossbabe Buyout: First-Ever Exclusive Interview with OG Bossbabe Alex Wolf
01:13:04
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to the Boss Babe podcast. Okay, this episode is going to be interesting. So there has always been a lot of speculation about whether I was the one to create the Instagram account for Boss Babe in the first place. Was it someone else? How did I get involved? What is the actual story? Now, you'll hear in this episode that there has been a reason that I have been quite quiet about the exact origins of Boss Babe as the Instagram account versus Boss Babe as the brand, the company. And that's because the person that I was initially involved in it with was private about this. But when she reached out for us to do an episode together and once and for all, clear the air, I was so excited about the opportunity and to bring you the real Boss Babe story from the absolute beginning. Probably one that you have never heard before. So with that, let's dive straight into the episode. Okay, this is seven to ten years overdue. Welcome to the podcast.
- [01:12]
B
Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
- [01:14]
A
There's so many places we get to go in this interview, but I first want to start with, what is your Boss Babe origin story?
- [01:21]
B
Well, first of all, before I go into that, I just want to say I don't think anyone has seen us in the same room together, which is funny. So here we are. Okay. My Boss Babe origin story. Early twenties. Like, too early. Like, I don't know anything about life. 21:22, fresh out of high school, immense pressure to go to school, to go to college. Both of my parents are college educated. It was kind of like the expectation. Expectation, but they weren't paying for it. And so I was like, well, how am I going to pay for it? I don't have the money. And so I did what any millennial would do, which is Google. Like, is college a scam? And it turns out Google said yes. And I was like, you know, I've always been an Internet girl, grew up on the Internet and had, like, a dad who's early adopter. So I just. I knew that the Internet was an avenue to make a lot of money. So I'm like, okay, I'm not going to go to school. Maybe I'll start a business. Also, I'm 21, 22, and I just want to be, like, famous. Like, I want to be a reality star. So this is what's cooking up. And I already have a chronic social media addiction. I'm on Twitter. I would cut high school classes to just go home and be on Twitter. And one day I signed up for a TV host seminar on how to become, like, a host, like a TV host. And I was living in the Bay Area at the time. I took, like, a $2 bus to LA, one of those, like, mega buses that you can take with a bunch of other sad souls. And I get to this, now that I look at it was like a super tacky seminar. But, like, I'm so excited. She has pictures of her and Khloe Kardashian on the wall. I'm like, this is it. I'm gonna be a star. It's all about how to get on tv, if you can believe that. So, like, at this time, I'm like, how do I get on tv? I'm watching Bad Girls Club. I'm watching, you know, mtv, bt like, how do I, you know, get on the big screen? And so this lady, she's like, hey, so, you know, if you want to get on, like, Ellen or if you want to get on a big show, like, you have to start with social media. This was 2013, and I'm like, social media. Like, I'm on social media all day long, but I'm still. We're. None of us are picking up on the fact that everything's about to go to social media. At the time, social media still just for Internet kids and just like, kids. So I'm like, okay. She's like, yeah, I have a client who. She just started posting about relatable things of being a mom, and now she's getting invited on Ellen and this and that. And I'm like, relatable things. I'm like, what's relatable for me? And it was that moment I said, well, what's. What's happening right now? And I said, girls are not going to want to change how they dress to be taken seriously in a professional setting. Like, millennial women are coming into the workforce. We're coming out of college, we're coming, you know, into professional settings. And I know we're going to want to keep the pink hair and the bright lipstick, because that's what we were wearing at that time. And I was like, that's it. It's boss, babe. So before I even got home, I'm in the bus, like, posting quotes, just motivational quotes. And the account started growing, and then, like, that's kind of where, you know, the rest was history.
- [04:36]
A
But it wasn't motivational quotes. It was. It was the start of what is now what everyone copies to be viral. Because motivational quotes at the time I talk about this, it was men in suits, right? And it was like, Very professional quotes. And they were about motivating. You know, get up, do the thing.
- [04:53]
B
Yeah.
- [04:53]
A
Your quotes were never that. Your quotes were sassy. They were tongue in cheek. And the way I always describe it, and it's like, the best way to go viral, which we know now. You couldn't have known this back yet. Maybe you did. When someone shares a post like that, they're basically saying, this is what I want to say without saying it. And that's what you were doing. So how did you even think to do that?
- [05:16]
B
I don't know. I just. I was tapped into the Zeitgeist, and that's. That's just been something. That's my thing. Like, I just. You're right. In the sense that they weren't just dry motivational guy quotes which stand still go around. And that's another thing I do say, too, is, like, there were motivational accounts, but they all had Lions and Lamborghinis, and none of them had lipstick and heels. And so the quotes were definitely, you know, they were bossy, they were sassy, and they weren't just, like, pure business. It was like, make each hair flip fabulous, you know, or like, stress doesn't go with my outfit. So I. I see what you mean with that.
- [05:55]
A
And no one was doing that at the time. So you just thought, I'm gonna just try this.
- [06:01]
B
Yeah.
- [06:03]
A
And how quickly until you notice. So you started@boss wave.in yeah. And how quickly until you start to see some traction?
- [06:10]
B
That's a good question. So I remember it was a hundred followers the first day, 200 followers the second day, and so on and so forth. And I remember thinking, when it got to 500, I remember, like, I cannot believe there are 500 women who feel like this. And I just kept going. And, you know, another thing I think people don't realize is Instagram was a whole different place in 2013. So getting 100 followers in a day, I mean, it's still hard to grow now, but I don't know, it was just. There was something about how highly engaged the community was. And the page was at that time that, like, everyone felt it was like a spitfire page.
- [06:48]
A
And so then as it started growing, the movement started growing.
- [06:53]
B
Yeah, like, there were fanatics. We were all fanatics. Like, it wasn't just like. Like, nowadays there's. How many inspirational pink boss quotes for women?
- [07:03]
A
Oh, yes.
- [07:03]
B
Like, I mean, it's like, countless. But at the time, there wasn't any. And so, yeah, the girls were reposting and just really, like, clinging to this identity was giving them purpose. There are so many women who follow me today that have like surpassed the million mark, that at the time were just like young girls and like, they look at me and they're like, oh my God. Like, you know, I remember I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for some of those quotes. And it's just kind of crazy to see how influential it was on so many like successful women today.
- [07:38]
A
And when did you start to feel like this is a movement that I really want to lean into and make into something?
- [07:45]
B
So at the time I was doing a combination of social media freelancing and babysitting. And I remember just, I think again, what a lot of people don't realize is social media was not a thing. So even offering like social media marketing services for a company, you had to explain why it would be valuable. And there was just so much culture clashing, age clashing. And like now how we have like the young Gen Z who just gets TikTok or whatever. That was me. It was like, oh, she just gets Twitter. Like, I don't know, just hand her the phone and she'll help the company grow. But I was also babysitting at the time and I think, you know, I just remember car rides home where I would be blasting Beyonce's self titled album, which came out that that album and Boss go hand in hand. And I don't know, I just felt I was in it with everyone. So I think that's what made it just such an emotionally strong brand.
- [08:41]
A
And when did you start to make money from it?
- [08:44]
B
That's another good question. Okay, so I'll never forget this. So the baby is asleep and I have some time to think about how am I going to make money from this brand. People are already inundating the DMs and how, where's the T shirt? Where's the mug? Like, I'm like, I'm 22. Like, hold on. And I'm like, it's crazy to me. Even, even at that age, I'm like, I can't. I'm not gonna just do T shirts. Because I'm like, I need recurring revenue. This is what I'm thinking. Mind you, I don't even think New York Times had like a digital subscription yet or like was really pushing that. Like, digital subscriptions were not a thing. But I think it was because I was exposed to just the Internet. I was just like. Because at first I was like, well, maybe I can ship something monthly. And then I was like, that's going to be too much work. I'm like, I can give these girls value by giving them a digital monthly goodie, basically. And at the time, the page had only 30,000 followers. And I'm like, oh, I'm rich. Like, I can do anything with this if I even just get 1%. And so I would say it was about 6ish months in that I built the first website from scratch. No Canva, no whatever. A million softwares they have now. Like, I'm literally coding in membership features. Like, there's no membership software.
- [10:09]
A
Yep. Oh, I remember this. The Boss Wave Me site. Yeah, I remember this.
- [10:13]
B
I'm talking to developers at 1am from like Freelancer. At the time, I don't think there was like upwork or maybe Freelancer bought up work or something like that. How do I fix this? And like. But we got a cranking and we had, we started something.
- [10:29]
A
It's so fascinating going back to that time too, because I was just talking to my team the other day, we were talking about this episode and it's so interesting because a lot of people now, when they start these quote pages, you'll see that no matter what design we put on the Boss web page, they're going to copy it. And they like go so far beyond to copy it. And it's like extravagant and they bring in designers this whole brand was built off of. Remember Word swag? Word swag and just Word swag.
- [10:57]
B
They follow me on Instagram and figuring.
- [11:00]
A
It out on the back end, like there was like, you say there was no Canva. Photoshop was available, but it wasn't like you could just YouTube how to use Photoshop. Like, this was.
- [11:09]
B
Hell no.
- [11:09]
A
This was such a different time. Which, yes, only 10 years ago. Ten years ago in tech is a long time ago. Yeah, I remember. I. Okay, all of this. So six months in, you started Bossway me. How far between starting that and meeting me was it? Did you meet me through me coming through one of your courses? Probably because you had Boss Wave me, but you also had millennial rich girl. Yeah, and I think I was in both. Is that how we met?
- [11:38]
B
Probably, yeah. Because I remember that. So a few years in, at this point, the brand is still busing. I'm meeting people, I'm like getting clout now. Like now I'm getting lit. People are like, wow, that's the girl with 200k followers. And I'm like. And yeah, I want to say that I was keeping an eye out on who was hyper engaged because I was looking for. It was getting to the point now I was like, okay, how can I take some of the load off of me? Because, you know, everything was changing and I was starting to, like, grow up. Like, actually question what do I want to do in my life? Because the other thing too is, like, I built this company out of survival. Like, it was really like, I don't know how I'm gonna eat. Like, how do you know? So it wasn't until a few years in that I started having the luxury of being like, who am I? What am I interested in? What would I be doing if I had some level of stability, which is what I was able to create for myself through Boss Babe.
- [12:34]
A
So. So what I remember, and I don't know if I'm have. If I've got the full version of events right, so you also might need to correct me. So, yeah, what I remember is you were very much the face Periscope came out. I remember you saying, this is going to be really big. Like, you had got on it early. We were seeing those numbers. It was like, it felt like clubhouse. Almost started getting really big. And I remember you invited me and was there for the girls, and you had said, I want more faces. I don't want this to just be about me. And we all did. I think it was one Periscope a week. Yes, something like that.
- [13:05]
B
Yes, exactly. So growing up inspired by the Spice Girls, I always was like, I would love if there was like, a girl gang, multiracial, different points of view, representing, you know, in this case, Boss Babe, so that, you know, whatever. I just was always inspired by that idea. And so, yeah, I guess I forgot how much I was so bullish on Periscope. We'll see where that went. But you know what I really was bullish on was Live. Like, it was the first time you could, like, go live in that way. And so to this day, so many of my followers found me through Periscope. And there's just something about Live that's just hits different when it comes to audience building. So another interesting influence that's happening at this time is I'm in the Bay and I'm dating, like, tech bros, and just I'm in the tech scene. So I'm hanging out with people who've raised millions for their company. And. And it's so funny because one of the first things I realized, you know, they were like, your company's making money. And I'm like, yours isn't. Like, I didn't understand how VC worked at the time. I'm like, I Get it? Like, you have the T shirt and the slides, but, like, where's the money? And so it was an interesting dynamic because they took some stuff from me, I took some stuff from them. A few ideas that came to mind were, one, operationalizing the business. I had never thought of that. I'm like, yeah, like, how do I take myself out of the business so I'm above it as opposed to in it. And that was one of the strategies to do that, as well as just thinking about an acquisition and getting out of it. So that was why I decided to do that strategy with Periscope.
- [14:41]
A
And then how did that go from us five doing Periscope to you eventually asking me to be CEO?
- [14:46]
B
Yeah. So you were such an amazing leader in that group. And the. The content was on point. I felt like the engagement was high. And I think another thing people don't realize about us is like, you're the hard worker. I'm more just like, I made the brand by, like, I'm way more of a, like, investor type chairman, if you will. Like, I'm not necessarily going in there and like, solving problems. You're coming to me like, hey, I really think this would be cool. And that would be cool.
- [15:15]
A
I was a hustler.
- [15:16]
B
Yes, you still are. And that was very apparent. And you were also, like, coming up. And so I'm thinking this might be a great fit. Like, I have this great platform. She can get all this exposure. She can become an authority. And so I proposed the idea, like, how would you like to be onboarded as CEO? And that was how that relationship started.
- [15:35]
A
It was amazing. And I. I think in the beginning there was never like, let's do a salary. Let's have a contract formal. It was like, come on board. You can take a profit share, run with it and report into me. And I was like, okay, that part was I. 23, 24.
- [15:54]
B
We're like five. Like, let's just make this money. And holy.
- [15:58]
A
We were both so young. Was it. I think it was 2016. No. Yeah, yeah, 2016. 2016. And I remember, I literally remember where I was when I got the text because I absolutely loved the account. And I had started my own called the Confidential. And I was doing very similar in my own vibe, but doing very similar that viral style. And I was so bullish on the Internet world. I was like, digital marketing, I want to learn everything I could about it. And I remember when you got this text, I just felt like I manifested this. Like, I didn't, I didn't. I mean, I was so young. I didn't need the contract, didn't need this. It was like, wait, I get paid?
- [16:32]
B
Yeah.
- [16:33]
A
Yeah. I was like, I get paid as much as I work. I can outwork anyone. And I remember just, like, from day one, just jumping in and running with it. And it felt like you were like, yeah, bring ideas. Like, let's just run with it.
- [16:47]
B
Yeah. I knew that I wasn't doing as much as I could with it. And so what's happening in my world at the time is I'm starting to get freaked out by the Internet. Like, first of all, like, what I said about the fanatics. So it went from like, yay, we're all fanatics, to, like, I could sense that the movement was gonna spin out of, like, the original vision I had for it because the Internet is just so massive. And I could also sense you were like, bring it on. And I was kind of like, wait, let me figure out what I want from life. And I'm getting uncomfortable with how Instagram is taking over everything. Like, again, I went into it thinking, like, oh, my God, it'd be so cool to get paid through Instagram. And now I'm, like, trying to figure out any possible way to not get paid, not have to be on Instagram. I get paid, but, like, I'm seeing how people are changing. People treat me differently because I have the Instagram clout now. Everything's becoming about Instagram cloud. Like, now it's so normal in Miami for people to be like, oh, you want to bring your friends and send the IG page? But, like, that was the beginning of that. Like, who are you? And it doesn't matter who you are. Who are you on ig?
- [18:00]
A
Yeah.
- [18:01]
B
And I was like, is anyone going to talk about how, like, weird this is? And, like, is anyone going to talk about the negative effects of. Of social media and technology and, like, the way we're designing and adopting the tech? And I was like, I think I want to talk about that. It was weird because I'm coming from pink boss land. And I was a little. I was insecure. I'm young and still unsure of myself. Like, is this going to be okay to do? To start talking about, like, essentially just.
- [18:31]
A
Tech philosophy and how that was that for you then to release control to me? Because I've tried. I've never been able to do that.
- [18:41]
B
It's the best thing ever. It's the best thing ever. And I know a lot of business owners struggle with that. And look, everyone's going to bitch, you know, People bitch. People are like, well, you know, what about you? And don't you want to be more involved? And I was just like, I had to put my piece first and I had to accept that even if I were to do something differently doesn't mean she's not getting the job done. Like you were getting the job done and the numbers were coming in. So I was like, that's all I got, folks. Like, I'm not going to compromise myself even more, you know, to try to like make everyone else happy and like put myself last.
- [19:20]
A
You may have heard that I recently co founded a brand new company, Glossy, which is a skin routine you can drink. And I wanted to tell you a little bit more about it. It is incredible. It's this POW supplement that you drink at least once a day. I'm personally a morning and afternoon kind of person and it is so good for your skin and your gut. One of the ingredients that I want to call out is probiotic D111. So it helps maintain a healthy gut microbiome. It supports digestion and skin barrier function. It's also really good for helping to reduce any discomfort in your stomach and bloating. I swear by Glossy, that's just one of the key ingredients. We also have vitamin C, magnesium, hyaluronic acid, coconut water powder, sea salt, zinc. It really comes from all angles to support you inside out. I love it. In a morning, I drop in and hydrogen tablet just to really boost things. And then in the afternoon I normally add some B vitamins. It makes me feel absolutely amazing and I really feel the difference in my gut. Specifically, I'm more regular, I'm less bloated. I just really feel a difference. So if you're Interested, go to getglocy.com that's G-L-O-C-I.com and use the code boss babe and you'll get a huge discount off your order. And then I remember again where I was when the acquisition conversation started. Do you remember that for you where I was or just like when those conversations started?
- [20:49]
B
Yeah. Huh.
- [20:50]
A
And how did you feel with that started to be put on the table? Was that something that you'd always thought about? Because for me, when I first said yes to this, it was never in my mind. But then eventually as I started doing it, I really, I was so ambitious and I thought, you know what, I really feel like I could do something.
- [21:04]
B
You were like, she's not doing. I'm gonna this company over. No, that's, that's how I tell the Story. Yeah, I'm like. I'm like, I'm literally just an absentee owner pretty much at this point. I'm not really doing anything. I'm not involved. And I'm also building my personal brand in this direction of talking about economics. And, like, I. I needed a pink detox.
- [21:27]
A
She's back. You ever.
- [21:28]
B
You ever need to go through one of those? I don't know, I. Sometimes this is a whole thing, but sometimes I. I'll pink myself out. But you know what? That those eras came from feeling like there needs to be some sort of shame affiliated with Pink. Because pink represents, you know, just you're honoring your girly girl self, your hyper feminine self, and how if you ever want to go anywhere in life, you better get rid of all that shit. And so, because Boss babe was like, kind of spiraling out of control, and the movement, I'll say, not the business, the movement. I was like, I didn't want anything pink on my page for, like, five days. And I didn't. I didn't even want people to put the two and two together because I was afraid that they wouldn't, like, they'd be like, oh, you're just the boss babe girl. Which now I'm like, yeah, that's freaking iconic. But, you know, at the time, I remember that.
- [22:26]
A
I remember when you were really starting your personal brand, and I remember monochrome. I remember it being so different. Babe. Yeah. And then I feel like you did get quite private. Was that intentional?
- [22:40]
B
Are you talking about, like, recently, when I just disappeared? No.
- [22:42]
A
I mean, even back then, I feel like. I feel like I was kind of just like, I'm gonna share every single detail. I'm like, yeah, I remember you. Maybe I had a different reception. I remember you being very boundaried around social. Like, even though we were in business together, I didn't really know tons about you. You were very private with us, but then also in with Instagram.
- [23:03]
B
Yeah, it was.
- [23:04]
A
It was always like this elusiveness about you. Like, what does she do? Like, yeah, what is she working on?
- [23:10]
B
I feel like artists like to just go in that mode of, like, you know, I have nothing to say. And that says it all. And I. I go through those phases because sometimes I. I do really feel like that. But, yeah, I guess it was my. It was my way of, like, coping with and dealing with, like, the identity crisis that I've been having for seven years.
- [23:32]
A
That makes sense. Okay, so then acquisition. Let's talk about it. Because a lot of people think that I stole the company. From you.
- [23:42]
B
First of all, anyone who knows me knows that I would never let anyone steal my company from me. It's. First of all, can anyone even do that? I mean, people have tried to trust me.
- [23:54]
A
There's some rumors out there about me, too. I don't think it's possible to do something like that.
- [23:59]
B
So let's clear the air. Because one thing about me is I'm not like a pushover. Like, how would. How would that even happen? Like, people think, like, one day I was just like, you know, like, you just stole the account or just logged you out.
- [24:12]
A
Alex, I logged you out. I changed the password, I hacked your email, and I never looked back.
- [24:18]
B
Everyone needs to know that Natalie got me a huge check. Okay. Natalie paid me to get out, and I wanted to get out. That's part of how the arrangement worked.
- [24:29]
A
So, yeah, that check. Oh, my God. I had to borrow money. We had to go on an agreement where I was going to pay you monthly. I remember being confident. Let's first talk about the deal.
- [24:39]
B
Yeah.
- [24:40]
A
So we were both 24, 25, and we were having phone calls and it was. I've done a lot of business deals since then. This was easy in a sense of. There was so much respect. I feel like I had so much respect for you and you had so much respect for me. We had so much respect for the brand.
- [25:00]
B
Yeah.
- [25:01]
A
Our conversations were just, here's what I think is fair, here's what I feel like I could maybe do. And we just got to a point where we both was like, okay.
- [25:10]
B
I mean, here's why I think it was easy. First of all, it's always easier to sell a business when the seller wants out. And so I was a distressed owner. Usually a distressed owner is like a 55 year old retired person who's been doing it for 30 years and doesn't want to see the business again. But I was, you know, 24 year old who got a lot of success really early and just never even had a chance to, like, think. And so if I'm not mistaken, I want to say it was like your idea, like you planted the seed. Because again, the way I see it is like you're doing all the work and you're growing it and you're like, wait, I should probably have some equity in this mother.
- [25:49]
A
Yeah.
- [25:50]
B
And I'm like, you're right. And I don't really have any plans for this. And I know whatever plans you have are bigger. And I want to go be an. An artist in the corner over here in Brooklyn. And Prospect Park. Like, how much you got? Let's work it out. And so I think that's why it was a great deal.
- [26:08]
A
Yeah. So for me, I felt really confident in where I want to take the brand, but I had no money. I had absolutely no money. And so I remember I lent some money from Steven. We'd agreed on a payment plan, and then I brought in a co founder to help me do it, which, in hindsight, also. I wish I'd also not to say that, like, I'm so grateful in the way that things unfolded, but I wish I knew that there were, like, different options for buying a business. Yeah, I didn't know you could get financing. I didn't. Like, I didn't know that there were other options for buying a business. It was almost like, oh, you can only pay what you can afford, or you go in debt or whatever it was, or you have to give equity up. Like, I just didn't fully understand. I'm sure you didn't either, but, yeah, that was a big learning for me.
- [26:51]
B
The fact that we did that before 25 is insane.
- [26:55]
A
It's insane.
- [26:56]
B
It's insane that it's crazy.
- [26:59]
A
What did getting money like that at that age feel like?
- [27:04]
B
Great. Well, you know, it was the beginning of my, like. Well, I guess I should develop a personal life. Because the thing about me, I've always been the weird, shy, awkward kid. Just a lot of, like, needing to heal, like, social anxiety. And so here I am. It's funny. I finished the final draft of my book the same week that the deal went through. And one of the thoughts I had was like, oh, my God, writing that book was harder than this deal. But then the second thought I had is like, this is the biggest check I've ever gotten. I have no one to call to, like, party with and hang out with. And I'm like, I guess this is the part where I should make friends. And so, I don't know, it was like. It was bittersweet. It's just an intense and extreme experience. And you know how they say, like, I wouldn't wish early success on people. I get why people say that I'm happy I had that early success, success, but I get why. Because it's almost like you didn't get a chance, really, to earn it in the same way or appreciate perseverance in the same way. And that's. That's how the Internet is. It's just so fast. It just happens so fast. So here we are now.
- [28:15]
A
Yeah. Getting that kind of money at that age too. It must have just been like, holy, who am I? What do I do now? And even for me, when I stepped away and I was gonna sell my half of the company to Danielle, and that was all going through for, say, six months or whatever. In that six months, I had a full identity crisis. I was like, who am I with our boss babe? Did you have any of that?
- [28:37]
B
Yeah. Like, it felt like a ghost I couldn't get rid of. Like, I'd be like, hi, I'm Alex. I'm into economics and philosophy. They're like, boss, babe. And I'm like, oh. And you know what's so funny, Nilee? I got to a point where I really did successfully stop being associated with it.
- [28:54]
A
I know, I know. Your brand couldn't have looked more different. I feel like you barely even mentioned it on your website. You were very private. And I never told your story, I never tried to tell your story. I never tried to talk about.
- [29:07]
B
And I. Yeah, I think that's why people feel like you erase me, but that's because I wanted to be erased.
- [29:13]
A
Right.
- [29:13]
B
And Natalie knew that more than anyone. And, like, you caught a lot of flack for that. And so shout out for you to you for. Yeah, I mean, strong through that.
- [29:23]
A
We can talk about the video, but I remember what. I remember when that video went live and everyone was sending me it and everything that I had wanted to, like, respond. And I remember just thinking, I'm not responding to something like that. If anyone's going to respond, I think it should be you. And I don't think that should be forced upon you to do that. Like, we were both so young to have videos like that come out. So for anyone that's not sure what we're talking about, about a year after I think the deal went through, there was a video when on YouTube about how I stole the company from you.
- [29:55]
B
I don't know if I saw this.
- [29:56]
A
You haven't seen the video?
- [29:57]
B
No.
- [29:58]
A
Oh, there's a full video. And then it was going around Instagram. It was a whole thing. The video, I mean, the narrative, you can imagine it was this white woman stole this company from this black woman. She's a raiseder. Like, the narrative was very strong. And I remember just being in so much fear, like, I'm going to get cancelled for this. But I never. I never really wanted to come out and tell our story because I felt like, this is private, this is business. Why should I have to explain or why should you have to explain yourself?
- [30:29]
B
I'm sorry that happened to you. Yeah. I hope that having this conversation, because, yes, I agree that people are not entitled to know my literal business. And so I think that I'm happy we're having this conversation now because it kind of clears up the air. And I just think you're a badass for being able to. I'm happy you didn't respond. And I want to say too, that for anyone who thinks they're defending me, because I think that's part of it too. And it's like, no, Natalie has helped me a lot. She changed my life, I changed your life, and we're happy for it.
- [31:03]
A
I mean, I do feel like our relationship is one of the most meaningful that I've ever had in a sense of I wouldn't be doing this. I feel like you showed me and so many other women what was possible in early Internet era, early social media. I mean, I remember the course that you put, Millennial Rich Girl, that was like an audio only course because, like, uploading video so freaking hard back then.
- [31:24]
B
You're right.
- [31:24]
A
Like, the uploads, all of that stuff.
- [31:27]
B
And there was no real course software either.
- [31:29]
A
No, no, it was just audios. And, like, you can make a PDF to go alongside it, but it has to be a basic PDF because you can't upload a lot of things. So I do love that we're finally having this conversation. Was there ever a part of you that regretted doing the deal?
- [31:42]
B
You know, I thought about that this morning and no. Because one thing that I want to make sure everyone is clear on too, is that I take responsibility. And I feel like there's credit due for me kind of inspiring the movement. And I see you more as, like, growing the company and transforming the company. And I think they're both amazing. I really do wish that there was some quantifiable data on how much the movement inspired women to start businesses, even just have the ovaries to put pink on their branding, because that just wasn't a thing. And so for me, like, what really gets me inspired and my why, which I realized this other day, even though I've been doing it for 10 years, is inspiring women to a be themselves. But if they happen to be like a hyper feminine girly girl, even like a ghetto fabulous girl, which I feel like I am, that none of that should be hidden in your brand. None of that should be hidden in your professional setting. Especially because I feel like, what's so empowering about Boss Baby and the message behind it was like, if the competency is there, if the professionalism is There. If we can get the job done, then what difference does it make that I'm doing it in platform heels and pink floor?
- [32:55]
A
Amen. So I think there is also some confusion that the Girl Boss movement was first. Yeah, let's talk about that.
- [33:03]
B
Who was first? You know, being first is really not as glamorous as it seems because you're too early. I'm so early. Like, this conversation only sounds good because it's 10 years later.
- [33:17]
A
Isn't that. Oh, my God, that blows my mind.
- [33:20]
B
So here's how I see it. Girlboss was a book that was, like, exciting because it was a story about this young female entrepreneur, Woman entrepreneur who built her empire. But that's all it was. It was just a book. And so what happened was, the way I see it is like, Boss Babe was a social and cultural movement. It existed even outside just the page. The trickle effect of the other pages helped kind of like, create this whole thing that pink and black, you know, it kind of reminds me of the. The brat. You see how black brats. Yeah. Like, I feel like that's the Gen Z version, but there is this aesthetic. Millennial Pink. Like, that became an official term. And I'm like, okay, I do think.
- [34:01]
A
You created Millennial Pink. I'm like, let's be real about that.
- [34:08]
B
I remember, too. Do you remember when the page was checkered? Yeah, it was, like, checkered. Like, no one was, like, experimenting with, like, grid aesthetics.
- [34:16]
A
Wait, were you the first to check that?
- [34:17]
B
I mean, I feel like if I say that, no one's going to believe me, but I swear to God, I.
- [34:22]
A
Think you might actually be right. I mean, you started the word swag trend. You started the trend of putting a image and then you would lower the brightness on it and then put the text over it. I think you were.
- [34:33]
B
I didn't see anyone do checker before.
- [34:35]
A
No, I don't think so. I think a lot of that was copied from the Boss Babe style.
- [34:40]
B
Yeah. Another thing I think that's interesting when I look back on those original memes, is that I didn't even put the account. I just put the hashtag. And that was another thing I remember is that there was, like. No, it was, like, two hashtags of, like, boss Baby or, like, three or whatever. And then, like, over time, it was like, it became a million. Like, within that first, like, few years of people just hashtag Boss Babe. Hashtag Boss Babe. So that's another thing I'm proud that I did, because it's a sentiment again, that I was More invested in this being like a kind of like a free movement where anyone could just take that hashtag and throw it on there, you know? And I felt like, okay, I'm making my. My print on the world and, like, my vision on the world.
- [35:24]
A
Yeah, I remember that. I think by 2018, there was 20 million uses of the hashtag.
- [35:30]
B
Yeah. I'm curious, what is that now?
- [35:32]
A
It's so hard to track now because I feel like hashtags aren't what they used to be. But that was probably at the peak, and that was 20 million and probably not including Twitter.
- [35:40]
B
And then the other story I was telling about earlier is that I don't remember if it was the trademark office or the bank, but I remember getting a reaction like, oh, we've never had a hashtag, like, on a credit card before. I don't think I've seen a hashtag like trademark. So it was definitely one of the first. That was another thing. Like, that hashtag represented everybody. The hashtag made it the movement and the cultural influence, because that's how we could find each other, you know? And so I wanted to make sure it wasn't just Boss Babe. It was Boss babe.
- [36:14]
A
Oh, my God. Yeah. Now, for anyone listening that's probably younger than us, they're probably thinking, this is also normal, but it wasn't. Yeah, hashtags back then weren't normal. I mean, to own a hashtag because you owned hashtag was. It was fully trademarked. It's wild.
- [36:30]
B
Yeah, it's cool.
- [36:32]
A
Okay. I mean, there's so many more things I want to get to, so. Okay. So a big question that I have for you is, if you never sold it, where do you think it would be? Or what do you think you would have done differently? Because I think you and I would have just run a completely different company.
- [36:46]
B
Yeah. I mean, it's hard to think about. So, obviously, the edge that I brought to Boss Babe was like this ghetto fabulous flair that I think is what left when you came in, which is fine. And what a lot of people missed. So I think that if I was still operating it, it would still have that. But the way I see it, and I was kind of hurt because, I mean, I'm telling you, the emotions people have about this. This brand.
- [37:12]
A
No, I know. Trust me.
- [37:14]
B
Like, you know, we're betrayed. People felt like I had betrayed them. And it's so funny, because I was kind of like, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not going to stay here just to make you Happy. I hope you would want that for me. But anyway, if I did have the same ambition you had and was like, you know what? I'm going to, like, scale this company and grow it up. It probably would still be a digital community of sorts, but it would just have, like, those pieces of me in it. But the reason why I said I got sad is because people were like, oh, my God, you know, where'd you go? And I'm like, I'm right here at Alex Wolf. Like, I still do my thing and I still have my swag and do what I do. So I'm like, I didn't go anywhere.
- [37:56]
A
Yeah, yeah. Why did you never come out and tell your story before this?
- [38:01]
B
You know, honestly, it was the fanaticism that was like, too much for me. And when I say fanaticism, I mean, like, just the extremeness, because I'm telling you, it did get to a point. The side of the Internet people don't talk about enough is the creepy DMS you get of, like, I don't know how I'm going to survive and I don't know this. And, like, you're dealing with people who are dealing with, like, real mental issues. And so as much as I was honored that Boss Babe could be an inspiration for these women, as a 20, 23 year old, I'm over what I can't. I don't know how to respond appropriately. I don't know how to help you. And so that scared me. Like, again, it was an overwhelming experience to have that much kind of like what felt like control in a cultural conversation. So I'm like, what do you. What do you want from me?
- [38:55]
A
Yeah. And I think now, or at least I have seen a bit of a change since 2020. I think now people are having a level of respect that, like, just because someone has a following on Instagram and their DMs are open doesn't mean you can tell them your life story. But back then, I don't think that boundary was established because it was very new. And you would find someone on the Internet that you really related to. And that was like the beginning of Influencers.
- [39:21]
B
Yeah.
- [39:21]
A
So I think that was also quite challenging back then because I remember the DMs, and they were intense.
- [39:26]
B
Yeah.
- [39:26]
A
Because I feel like people finally, for one, saw themselves in a movement or saw themselves in a brand.
- [39:31]
B
Yeah.
- [39:32]
A
And almost saw this as their way out.
- [39:34]
B
Yeah.
- [39:35]
A
And they wanted that from the brand. And I remember that being quite intense.
- [39:39]
B
Yeah. It was just intense. And I didn't want to fuel the fire. I was just like, maybe if I just take this money and look like.
- [39:46]
A
Over here, Pretend it's not happening.
- [39:50]
B
Yeah.
- [39:51]
A
So the last seven years for you then how has that looked?
- [39:57]
B
First of all, seven years sounds crazy. Crazy. So what ended up happening is I got into the tech world. I was already kind of around it. And another thing about me is like, I'll think everyone is into it until I realize they're not. So I'm thinking everyone's into tech. I'm thinking everyone's thinking. What I'm thinking in terms of, like, social media is a big deal. And so I started getting meetings at like Instagram, Snap all the big guys and going in there and, you know, there was an optimism like, oh, I'm gonna help you guys. But then I realized how far away they were from understanding what their own apps were. Like, Instagram didn't know what a creator was. I am not. You what? No. Like, I would go in there and I'd be like, okay, so do you know who this is? Do you know that is. I'm like, these are like, really popular people who are like, who have like a big stake in the cultural zeitgeist. Like, how. How come you don't know them? What are you guys doing here?
- [40:52]
A
That fills my mind.
- [40:54]
B
Yeah. So. So I started to get really passionate about how do we design a more ethical, human friendly social media place, like, or apps behavior. Because the other thing that's happening that we didn't talk about is Instagram's changing now. They're integrating stories and. Because again, when I got on Instagram, it was a happy little square app. Like, there were no videos, it was just squares. And so the landscape is shifting beneath our feet in terms of, well, where should we be now and what kind of content should we post? And I started doing consulting and bringing in ideas about how to just. Yeah. Design more ethically intentional Internet behaviors. And that's kind of like what I'm known for now. So now I'm known as like the tech philosopher. Award winning. Had brought these provocative ideas to the tech space. And that's how the seven years have been.
- [41:52]
A
And did you feel like you were really happy to kind of leave the boss babe identity behind? Yeah.
- [41:58]
B
At the. Yeah.
- [41:59]
A
Yeah. Because I also always had the sense from you, you never had a big ego. Even when the Instagram account was taking off. Like, I remember once I'd moved over to America and I was kind of in and out on my student visas, you would always put me forward for the interviews. You would Put me forward for the podcasts.
- [42:19]
B
Yeah.
- [42:19]
A
This was like early podcasts. Yeah. Did you never have your ego involved in that?
- [42:23]
B
You know, I'm careful because any. Anybody who says they don't have a big ego, run, because they're usually the scariest ones. I do have an ego, but I felt like it was more in alignment for you to take those meetings than for me. And like I said, I'm still figuring out who am I, what do I want to be known for? And I knew for a fact that Boss Babe was going to be a chapter and not, like, the main thing, so that's why I did that.
- [42:49]
A
I think this is great for people to hear a positive acquisition story, because I think there's just a lot of noise out there about all of this. You know, gets to be really challenging, or you sell your company and, you know, you completely have a crisis and you don't know who you are. Like, that also gets to be positive stories here. And also, you don't need to raise millions of dollars to bring in someone if you want to release control of your company. There's so many ways to do this, and I feel like the Silica Valley Playbook doesn't tell you that.
- [43:18]
B
No. Yeah, no, they're still figuring out how to turn off profit over there. Yeah. No, like I said, I did take influence from that side. And I will say that the tech bros did teach me to dream big. Like, I would send in little pitch decks, and they'd be like, no, you should be thinking 10 times bigger. And I'm like, I really. Okay. And so that. That is helpful. But. But, yeah, I've always been kind of like the free, artsy person kind of floating in and around Boss Babe. I feel like that's been my. My figure, but. Oh, Another thing I wanted to say is, like, as time would pass and it still, like, gives me chills to see the original ones kind of, like, floating around randomly, like on Pinterest. Like, I'll be scrolling through Pinterest like, depressed, and there'll be an old Boss Babe quote, and I'm like, damn, I'm right. Like, they still motivate me.
- [44:11]
A
Yeah.
- [44:12]
B
Which is crazy. But, yeah, like, the who was reposting. So, like, when everybody was talking about Britney Spears a few years ago on her document, like, her documentary came out, and I went on her page, and she had just posted, like, one of the old Boss Babe quotes. And, like, when I see stuff like that, I'm like, oh, my God. Like, you know, because I'm. I'm a Britney fan. And that's that iconic level is, like, knowing. Like, you said, people repost quotes because it's like, I couldn't have said, like, this is basically what I'm trying to say. And so it's just really cool as a culture. Like, I guess, Stan or whatever. It's cool to see how other women who have been so influential in culture resonate and identify with the brand.
- [44:56]
A
Oh, I mean, Britney, Madonna, all of the Kardashians.
- [44:59]
B
I mean, I didn't know Madonna. I know the Kardashians.
- [45:02]
A
It's on Madonna's feet.
- [45:03]
B
Oh, that's hilarious.
- [45:07]
A
No, the quotes are everywhere.
- [45:09]
B
My favorite two is Paris Hilton. Like, I've been shopping some of her home care or homeware line, and I'm like, okay, do I want the boss babe mug? No.
- [45:18]
A
Everything she does, she has money.
- [45:19]
B
Why am I not getting it?
- [45:21]
A
Everything she does has boss baby vape on it. I don't understand how she's doing it.
- [45:24]
B
I love it. I love it. It's just great.
- [45:27]
A
I mean, I'm gonna just sit here and let it.
- [45:30]
B
I know. It's just. It's worth it. Like, just the. The idea of it, it just makes me so happy to know that that's what's happening.
- [45:37]
A
And so what's next for you?
- [45:39]
B
Okay, so back to this conversation about how I'm, like, more of a chairman investor type than entrepreneur type. So I got so sick of the text base that I wanted to get off and just, like, start investing. And that looked like acquisitions. I look like buying companies. So I decided to start a holding company. And basically, I'm looking for small businesses to purchase. And, like, my goal is to be like Warren Buffett in a mini skirt. That's what I tell people. And yeah, because, you know, I've spent the last seven years, 10 years predicting trends, and I'm like, instead of, like, predicting them for everyone else, I might as well put this intel into my own company and. And investing. And, like, I don't know. I have visions of, like, okay, what would. What could we do if, like, more women had more money? What do we want to build? What kind of companies and what kind of tech would we build? What would we be designing? And so that's what I'm really passionate about is, like, how do I take the money and the wealth that could be generated through acquisitions through a holding company and then reinvest it in a way where women, you know, there's more women design products, you know, online and offline, because that's something that just really inspires me. Like, I threaded the other day. I want to say tweeted. I. I really can't stand how every social media platform has stolen each other's thing because they've diluted everything.
- [47:04]
A
Well, do we even say tweeted now when it's X? Like, do.
- [47:07]
B
What do we say I X did? They don't care about us. They just do whatever they want. You know what's so funny, too, is Elon had that brand name for, like, ever. Like, he. Yes.
- [47:20]
A
Did he.
- [47:21]
B
He had x dot com. And, like, I think he tried to make it work for something else, and they're like, oh, we don't like it. It sounds like porn. And then. And then finally, when he did the Twitter acquisition, he was like, oh, perfect. Time to use my creepy brand name.
- [47:34]
A
Wait on Poland. I have a story for you.
- [47:36]
B
Okay, so.
- [47:37]
A
Wanted bossbab.com forever.
- [47:39]
B
Oh, yeah, I want to hear this.
- [47:40]
A
Okay, so.
- [47:42]
B
Because I know that was not easy.
- [47:43]
A
Oh, my God. So, okay. Wanted bossbab.com. i mean, it was never available. Even when you wanted. It was never available. Never ever, right? And I'm like, who is the owner of Boss Babe.com? so I would always go on these domain sites where you try and, like, broker the purchase, and I would never hear back, ever. And I think it was 2019. Stephen, my husband, says to me, what do you want for your birthday? And I said, I want bossof.com. right? And he's a man that likes to make his wife happy. So he's like, okay. So he goes down rabbit hole, and he finds the owner of bossleave.com and it's this older woman, freaking iconic. And he gets all.
- [48:25]
B
She's got to be on the podcast next.
- [48:26]
A
I know. I need to know she's a member of the society.
- [48:29]
B
Oh, I love it.
- [48:30]
A
So she likes to be quite private, though. He gets her contact details, and he's, like, trying to broker the deal through email, all that stuff. And she says, I will do this on the phone. So he said, okay. So we called her. The first phone call lasted three hours, and he heard the whole history. She said, in the 80s, she had the. She was like a total boss, and she decided to call herself a boss babe and registered the domain.
- [48:55]
B
Wow. So she's the original.
- [48:58]
A
Right. So she didn't make. She didn't create a boss babe website. She never created a brand out of it. But this website hosted her own personal brand. I won't say her name because she doesn't want to be private, but it would basically just. It was, like, about me.
- [49:11]
B
I want to say I saw it.
- [49:13]
A
I want to say I saw pictures of me. Yeah, all of this. But, like, when we were looking for it at the time, like, she. I guess she'd taken it down. This was like, she just had this. So anyway, he calls her and they're trying to do the deal. And he said, so, so what's it going to take to the deal? And she said, I don't really care about the money. I want to be paid fairly for it. But I keep getting offered huge sums of money from porn companies, and I need your word that you will never turn Bosto.com into a porn website or sell it to a porn company. And he gave her his word. They agreed on amount, bought it, like, he gave it to me for my birthday, but that's how it happened.
- [49:47]
B
That is a good story. I feel like there needs to be a little boss baby museum.
- [49:50]
A
I know, I know.
- [49:51]
B
That would be so cute.
- [49:52]
A
I wonder if we, like, do one on the website where we do boss babe through the ages, the timeline, and, like, show all the branding.
- [49:57]
B
We should. We should do that. But we should also do a museum, because it would be.
- [50:01]
A
So can you do that? Because I'm tired.
- [50:02]
B
I might, I might. I have a few.
- [50:04]
A
You do it, and then I'll put that.
- [50:05]
B
I can have a few friends I can call.
- [50:07]
A
Okay, great. I'm just so tired.
- [50:11]
B
I love that story. That's such a great story. Well, yeah, I was trying to say that I threaded something, and it was. I want to say, about how all the social media apps have copied each other to the point that everything's kind of diluted now. But I brought that up initially because that's another important contextual point for this story is like, social media is changing. Like, oh, my God, there just wasn't any. The same way you see podcasts now or gurus now or business experts now. Like, so much of that was still forming at the time. And if you were in that world, like, you were, it already felt like, wow, this is such a formed world.
- [50:49]
A
Right?
- [50:49]
B
We didn't know it was going to grow and grow, and I really feel like it's going to keep growing. And I'm like, oh, my God, I was done with this in 2018. Like, I wasn't expecting this to. To expand this much. So it's just crazy to see.
- [51:02]
A
Yeah, I mean, I remember because I had a supplement company while I was also running boss with you, and I was, like, still a student, so I was still like, still involved in university. And I said to one of my professors, I really think, like, of the two companies, boss Babe is the one that is going to be the biggest. And he was like, oh, I don't think so. I don't really feel like people are going to want to pay for a membership or courses like that. I think you should go all in on the supplement company. So even then, like, yes, we believed in it, but the bigger outside world did not think people would pay for this, and especially from young women.
- [51:34]
B
Yeah. And that happens a lot. And that's another reason why I get more passionate about investing, because I hear, you know, the story of Etsy was, I forget her name, which makes me upset. But basically, when she tried to get funding, it was the same, you know, who's going to want to buy homemade arts and crafts? Us.
- [51:53]
A
What are you talking about?
- [51:54]
B
Like, so, like, stories like that happen all the time, where it's like, it makes so much sense to us, and I guess we just have to prove it over and over and over again.
- [52:05]
A
I know, like, the. The world changes, but it doesn't change. Yeah, that's how I see it. So you've always been amazing with predictions. Can we talk about some of your predictions?
- [52:15]
B
Well, look, I feel like I. I don't want to get too scary, but we're in a really amazing time for the simple fact that we have access to media that can access everyone. I don't know how long it was gonna happen, because when I look at things like the election just from a media literacy perspective, we got to a point, like you said, 10 years in tech is a lot. We got to a point where both candidates felt it was necessary to include podcasts and memes in the campaign, which is insane. So what does that tell me? Well, that tells me that, yeah, if you're not on here on a mic right now, it might be time to do so. And then I'm also kind of playing around with how I feel about, like, the personal brand being, like, the only brand and how, like, we're moving away from, like, faceless. I'm careful because I feel like, yes, that does make sense. I do think, like, especially as Gen Z starts to mature, the way they took in the media was primarily through these faces, and that they might not resonate or identify with corporate entities in the same way as they need that face. But then I also see nuanced kind of artists and fashion designers getting away with leaning into that mystery as part of the play. I do think it's a minority But I, I like to leave room for that nuance. It's a great time to be silly and also like have proximity to, I want to say like hip hop culture. Here, let me explain myself. So I made a mini documentary in 2018 called Attention for Sale and it was about how I was concerned that our attention spans were shrinking. This is another thing I'm noticing on Boss Bait and, and as Instagram's taking over the world, I'm like, oh, we can't look at each other in the eyes. No one can focus. We got into the Internet thinking we would grow out of it as kids. We're growing into it, right? Like the idea was like the Internet was like a fun thing you did as a kid and then one day you'll be a real grown up. Right? Well, here we are. So part of what happens when the attention span shrinks is it's harder to get a conversation in the cultural zeitgeist because people are just distracted and the, the appetite they've built have gone away from more serious things and into more trivial and cool things. And right now what's cool is hip hop and what's trivial is anything funny. And so those things, it's a good time. Which luckily I'm funny and I'm into hip hop. Those things give you a higher chance of having your content distributed through the algorithm, which is like this big balance that we're all trying to figure out how to do. So those are some like trends, I guess predictions I think either way brand is, I'm bullish on whether it be personal or corporate entity. Brands are really significant and only are becoming more so because people need meaning. The other issue with technology, anxiety shot through the roof. Depression shot through the roof. Guess who over index young girls and you know, sadly even suicide. Right. So that tells me we have a meaning problem. We have a people don't feel like it's worth contributing and being their best selves problem. So brands have this unique opportunity to not just be piggy bank, to collect everyone's money, but to mean something bigger as a belief system and identity for a set group of people. Because what you're essentially making is a bank of priceless after you get the brand because you can't compete with price. We have all the products that we need to live. We need products that make us want to live. That's the big switch. And that's why I get chills when I think of Boss Babe because it was such a powerful brand and is and it will live. It doesn't Even necessarily need a certain company, it's just gonna live. It's an entity, it's a belief, it's a brand. And so that's what I mean when I say, like, I'm bullish on brand being the number one thing folks need to invest in to. To really stand out.
- [56:22]
A
Oh, I love that. And it's so true. Like, when you think about all these categories that are just being redone and kind of redeveloped, people are just taking old, stale brands and then making them relatable in some kind of way. And that's where everyone gravitates, gravitates towards.
- [56:37]
B
Yeah.
- [56:37]
A
What do you think about social media and the kind of state of creators and influence?
- [56:42]
B
I like threads because it's entertaining. It's a little addicting. They're going to be integrating ads, I heard, which makes sense. So we'll see how that changes the dynamic. I don't know. I just. Nothing really feels stable anymore. Like, they're saying Tick tock can be banned or taken away. And then Instagram, I think a lot of people haven't woken up to the fact that Instagram wants you to pay them to get your stuff distributed.
- [57:07]
A
Right.
- [57:07]
B
The people are like, oh, like, Instagram keeps telling me to buy a badge and buy ads. And I'm like, that's the business model, babe. Like, the days of just like, the thing about social media platforms, they need to hit a threshold of content density to really start being aggressive about the business model of it. Us as millennials who don't know what's going on and Gen Z doesn't, and we're just like, oh, we're here for the vibe. It's like, yeah, we're creating the vibe. We create the vibe. And then they put like, paywalls on the vibe, and it's not really a vibe anymore. And I'm like, yeah, we're now 10 plus years in with Instagram. It's met the threshold, babe. Like, there's enough content now. So now if you really want it to circulate, you got to put some coin behind it. So it's just like the options feel. I mean, I don't know, does anyone wake up, like, I love social media. It's great.
- [57:57]
A
Yeah, I know. I think you probably couldn't have predicted the level of burnout that would come from social media. And I especially think in this world of entrepreneurship and creators and influencers, there's one thing I think about a lot is there is no limit to the amount of work you can put in. There's no limit to the amount you can grow. There is no limit to the amount you can make. And that fuels work addiction in a way that I don't think has ever been seen before.
- [58:23]
B
Yeah. And just the conversation behind, well, do you have a business infrastructure that you can at least use your content to promote, or are you using the infrastructure of this social media business? Right. Basically the difference between products and services and views. What are you selling? And that was another thing, an issue that was coming up because the rise of Boss Babe was also the rise of I want to be an influencer, I want to be popular online and I want to get paid for the popularity. And that was something that I was having an issue with because I've always been more team. Don't sell views. Sell a product or service, please, because you're going to burn yourself out. Even if you make it okay, you're going to burn. You're going to burn out and give up after, like the amount of YouTubers who actually met the threshold, who actually got the views and got paid from the views. If you look at Mr. B's, he started selling his own shit, people started selling their own shit because it gives you more control, which is how a business is supposed to feel. What are these social media companies really here to do?
- [59:27]
A
Oh, this is such a good point about not selling views. I feel like we need to just talk about this for a minute because I completely agree. A trend that I see is a creator will start something and it will become successful, so they'll start a business behind it, then they stop creating and they start just doing things for views. That's where they burn out. And we've seen this so many times with people walking away from their businesses. And I constantly have to check myself on this because I get told, create around this, this topic. Put a hook, like all the things.
- [60:01]
B
Yeah.
- [60:01]
A
And I'm like, if I'm not creating content that I actually enjoy, I can't be in this. A mentor of mine told me, he was like, as much as you love your team, you're going to be here at the end, not them. So don't let social media or people dictate how you create, because if you want to be here, you're going to outlast them all. And you need to make sure you're running a race that you can actually run.
- [60:25]
B
And that's why having a business that isn't selling views and having a brand really protects you from the current climate right now. Because like I said, even if you do succeed, which is Very hard to do in selling those views. You're a moment. And then what if, you know, fickle people are. People are super fickle to these Internet personalities, but they're less fickle to a brand because it's rooted in values as opposed to, like, whoever is the cute girl in the moment trying to sell me the makeup.
- [60:56]
A
Oh, I love it. So coming full circle at the beginning, you said this movement came about because you really want to be famous.
- [61:03]
B
Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
- [61:04]
A
Got that very quickly. Do you still want that?
- [61:07]
B
No, I mean, I. To your point, like, I took a little and I was like, I'm good. But, you know, growing up influenced by music videos, I don't know, I just. I thought that's what you were supposed to be. You were supposed to be beautiful and famous and, like, it's such, like, typical, like, unhealthy. Where's your parents, like, behavior. Like, I'm thinking it's going to solve everything. I'm just a lost girl. I was dealing with the eating disorder at the time.
- [61:36]
A
I didn't know that.
- [61:37]
B
Yeah, I was super anorexic. Like, I would wake up in the morning, go on the scale, and if it didn't say 99, permission to just hate myself all day.
- [61:46]
A
I really know that. Yeah.
- [61:47]
B
And that was another thing is, like, I realized people didn't see what I saw. When I saw Boss Baby, I saw a girl survive. Like, trauma response to, like, pay bills. That's what I saw. And it took years of healing to be able to look at it and say, wow, that's what I can do at my freaking lowest. But at the time, you don't see it that way. So, yeah, I wanted to be famous because I thought. Because I had a hole in me. And like every other American girl, I thought fame and fortune were gonna get rid of the hole.
- [62:20]
A
And what did get rid of it?
- [62:22]
B
Definitely healing. Which for me just meant addressing shame that I was carrying, that I didn't need to carry wounds, parent wounds. Just bullshit from childhood that kept me stuck in so many ways. So many ways. Like, it's crazy how much healing through that elevates you. It's almost like you're walking around life with angst, these spiritual anchors, and until you get it off of you, you're like, oh, I can, like, like, fly. So again, that's why looking at Boss Babe from that unhealed perspective was like, man, like, nobody really cared for me. I had to get her from the mud. And, you know, no one saw that I was anorexic. Like, just all these thoughts of, like, where was my protector? Why was I, you know, why was I alone? Why was I, like, taking the market on by myself as a 22 year old? Like, it was just. But now I look back at it and I'm like, and I killed it. So now that I'm healed, y'all should really watch out. But, yeah, so, yeah, I wanted.
- [63:33]
A
I wanted fame and, you know, saying, building something this big from being at your lowest point. Yeah. I can only imagine what you're going to continue creating. Probably that was why so many people related to the brand. Because it was real and there was real pain behind it. And we were all struggling, like, in our own ways.
- [63:50]
B
Right.
- [63:51]
A
But we, I think millennials in our early 20s, we were all really struggling to find our way in the world. And a lot of us grew up with really shitty backgrounds.
- [64:01]
B
Yeah.
- [64:02]
A
But we didn't know about healing. We didn't know about therapy. The Internet was only just coming alive. Now, you gentle parenting all this stuff.
- [64:10]
B
I would like to give us credit for, like, millennials deserve credit for a few things. And one of them is integrating mental health as one of the health. Because Gen Z, Gen X said, fuck that they cared about the finance. I'm like, how's the mental, babe? So shout out to us for that anyway.
- [64:29]
A
No, it's so true.
- [64:30]
B
But.
- [64:30]
A
But probably a lot of what you created from that place is why it was so impactful.
- [64:35]
B
Yeah.
- [64:35]
A
And if you were healed back then, it probably wouldn't have landed the same.
- [64:38]
B
I agree. I think that young people, and in this case women, that little vulnerable stage between 18 and like, 20, let's call it 24, when you have to transition to an adult. And I have a lot of work on this as well in, like, the tech philosophy material, because I feel strongly that we don't really have rites of passage. Like, we don't have, like. And now you have proven that you are ready for adulthood. You know your strengths, you have support. Like, no, I don't know my strengths. I don't have support. I'm literally winging it. On a growing Internet that's. That's out of control and about to change in a million ways every day. And so that lack of direction. And again, this is why I do see brands as so powerful, because they're almost like these matrixes where that chaos becomes. Makes sense. It's like, okay, I might not know what's going on out there, but I know when I'm here. And that's how it felt is like, I know these girls are also lost in the wilderness of capitalism, and they're like, okay, I don't know what's about to happen, but I'm not changing my shoes because of it. And that. That's what brought us together.
- [65:46]
A
Yeah. And it makes me think, too, about, not Gen Z, but the generation that comes after them. Kind of our kids, alpha. They're going to really deal with that with AI. It's a. It's going to be a whole new conversation. The way that we dealt with social media. They're growing up with AI and trying to find their feet. With all of this, we.
- [66:07]
B
We don't give ourselves a chance to exit Exhale. When has the exhale happened? It doesn't happen because the technology is invested in so rapidly out of fear, out of maybe male fear. I don't know. Because I'm just like, how do women do business? Like this? But that's how I feel. I just feel like, yeah, like, there's just. We're just victims of, like, what, you know, they want to do with the technology that integrates into the deepest level of our daily lives. And I have to just adjust. And before I even put a value judgment on that as good or bad, it's just like, whoa. That's kind of crazy.
- [66:50]
A
Buckle up.
- [66:51]
B
I've been trying. It's crazy. It's so hard. That is. That's the best way of Look. That's the best word.
- [67:00]
A
Yeah.
- [67:00]
B
Yeah.
- [67:01]
A
Well, thank you for doing this.
- [67:03]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [67:04]
A
It's been a long time coming, and I. I just feel, honestly, a bit of sense of relief to have it out there, too.
- [67:09]
B
Yes, I agree.
- [67:11]
A
Do you feel like there's anything we didn't say?
- [67:13]
B
I really. I feel like we covered it all, and I'm just so grateful that we were able to have this conversation. And I want to just, again, thank you for being great and I'm really impressed and inspired with what you built with my little trauma response, but also just so grateful for all the women who've supported me, Natalie, this movement. And, yeah, I'm just so grateful.
- [67:37]
A
Let's do this again in another couple of years and see where we are.
- [67:40]
B
Okay.
- [67:41]
A
Thank you so much, seriously. And I just want to say I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for you and what you created. And I am so grateful to you. You are such a meaningful person in my life, in my story. And really, I remember, you know, yeah, you were a year younger than me, but I remember back then, you pouring so much confidence into me. Too. Cuz I remember being like what the. You get what am I doing? And you're like you can do it, you're fine. And you and you didn't micromanage me and you let me up and I am very grateful to you. So thank you.
- [68:20]
B
Okay, we are beyond thrilled to share some incredible news with you. This feels like such a such a huge milestone moment for Boss Babe and we are so excited we can finally announce it. Boss Babe Planners are officially available at every single Walmart store across the United States. We've partnered with the amazing team at Blue Sky Planners to create the most detailed and effective planner designed to help you achieve your 2025 goals. This isn't just about organization. It's about building a system that keeps you focused, intentional and on track for your biggest ambitions. Whether you're mapping out your dream projects, balancing your business and personal life, or making space for what truly matters, this planner has everything you need. And now it's right within reach at Walmart stores nationwide. This partnership is a true pinch me moment for everyone here at Boss Babe. And I cannot wait for you to experience what we've created. So head over to your nearest Walmart or shop online to grab your Boss Babe planner today. And don't forget to taglueskyplanners and Ossbabe when you do. We can't wait to see how you're using it to create the life and business you've always envisioned. Here's to an incredible 2025.
- [69:17]
A
Wait, wait wait. Before you go, I would love to send you my 7 figure CEO operating system completely free. As a G. All you've got to do is leave us a review on this podcast because it really supports the growth of this show. This is my digital masterclass where I'll show you what my freedom based daily, weekly and monthly schedule looks like as an eight figure CEO mama and high performer and I'll walk you through step by step how to create this for yourself. It includes a full video training from me and a plug and play spreadsheet to literally create your own operating system. It's one of our best trainings and it's worth $1,997. But I will unlock for you for free when you leave us a review. I know, wild, right? All you have to do is leave your review on the podcast, take a screenshot of it and then head over to bossbab.comreview to upload it and then you'll get instant access to the seven figure CEO operating system. Again, head over to BossBabe.comreview to upload your screenshot and get access. We are so, so grateful for all of your support and can't wait to hear how the podcast has supported.