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460: Growing Up With a Wildly Successful Mom (+ Becoming One Yourself) With Kate Northrup
00:55:27
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- [00:00]
A
Today's conversation is such a special one. I'm sitting down with someone who truly gets what it's like to grow up around entrepreneurship, success, and a mother who's made a massive impact. I'm joined by Kate Northrup, best selling author, speaker, and entrepreneur whose work has helped thousands of women redefine their relationship with money, time, and energy. Kate is the author of Money A Love Story and Do Less, and she's the founder of an incredible company that teaches women how to achieve more by doing less. I was really in the thick of very early new motherhood and trying to figure out, like, can I do both? Can I have a career and be the mum I want to be? But what you might not know about Kate is that she grew up with a front row seat to the personal development world.
- [00:42]
B
Yeah. I mean, she was on Oprah 10 times. I just wanted my mom to be like everyone else's mom, and she just wasn't.
- [00:49]
A
So her mom, Dr. Christiane Northrup, is a pioneer in women's health and someone many of us grew up reading or watching on Oprah. In this episode, we dive into what it was really like being raised by a mother with such. Such a massive platform, how that shaped Kate's own views on success and ambition and the unique lessons and pressures that come from growing up in that kind of environment. Most of the women who listen to this podcast are breadwinners of their family.
- [01:13]
B
Too, and so in full survival mode. Like, basically during a year that brought me to my knees and I was just trying to make it through the next five minutes. A year after Penelope was born, we sat with our accountant and we realized we had made twice as much money.
- [01:29]
A
This one is real raw and filled with so many gems about legacy, identity, and redefining what success looks like on your terms. Let's dive in. Kate, welcome to the podcast.
- [01:42]
B
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
- [01:44]
A
I'm so excited for this conversation. And when I was thinking about what I want to talk to you about, one thing that I remember, one of the first times we met that really struck me. When we had a conversation, I was really in the thick of very early new motherhood and trying to figure out, like, can I do both? Can I have a career and be the mum I want to be? And I'm like, I was in that place of, like, every mum that I'd meet who was a working mum, like, asking every question. I remember talking to you and you were telling me you actually grew up with a working, successful mum. And I was Just so shocked because it's rare. I do feel like it's quite rare for those of us who have raising our own kids now to have moms who say in the 80s, had really big careers. We don't hear about it as much. And so that's really where I want to start this conversation of. Tell me about growing up with a successful mum.
- [02:30]
B
Yeah, well, it's funny because just before we started recording, I was trying to think. I was like, actually, I think I am the only one I know who had a mom who worked a lot and was really successful and also very visible. That is going to be common for our kids, really, which is wild. But my mom was a major pioneer. Like, she was at it before this was a thing.
- [02:55]
A
She really was.
- [02:56]
B
She really was. She really was. Yeah. I mean, she was on Oprah 10 times. She has written three New York Times bestsellers. She. There was a time when you could not turn on PBS and not see my mom. So she really, like. She. Yeah, she has a strong legacy and I'm very proud to be continuing it in certain ways, even though I am. My mom's an OB gyn. I'm obviously not a doctor, but I really feel that, like, I'm carrying on the family legacy in terms of speaking for the wisdom of the female body and bringing that into the space of commerce and bringing that into the space of how we run business businesses and how we relate to money, how we relate to time and using our bodies as a compass for those things. So I learned that from my mom, and I'm very proud of her and grateful for her growing up with a working mom. I mean, I never knew any different, but I will say I remember very clearly. So both of my parents are doctors, and my mom tells this story of when I was a baby and my sister was a toddler. My parents were both on call this one night and they met in the parking lot of the hospital at, like, 3:00am to trade the car seats. And, like, one was coming out of the hospital and, like, had to wake us up in the middle of the night, drive us into the hospital, give the other one the car seats, pop them in the car, go home, put everyone back to bed. And it was at that moment when she and my dad looked at each other and they were like, we need a nanny. Like, hello. So I come from this legacy of women where it's not the first instinct to get help, right? Because if you picture that scene, the insanity of two doctors waking up sleeping children to switch car seats at 3am in the hospital parking lot is like. And it wouldn't have occurred to you before that moment that you might need some extra help? Like, that's fully nuts.
- [04:47]
A
Yeah.
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B
I do remember both of my parents working a lot, you know, and oftentimes on Saturdays, we did rounds with my parents at the hospital. My sister and I would just hang out in the doctor's lounge and eat all the mini graham crackers and, like, the little apple juice with the aluminum foil.
- [05:03]
A
Oh, yeah, like peel chocolate.
- [05:07]
B
It was like 2 ounces of apple juice in a little plastic cup. And so that was just our life. But I remember my parents worked a lot, and I remember the feeling in my house, which is, you just have to work a lot and there's always more to do. And there was a sense of stress and pressure around it. And so I decided really early on that I was going to have my own business so that I could have freedom as I was like, I want to be able to stay home with my kids. I want to be able to have as much time with my kids as I want. I don't want to have to have my schedule determined by, is someone having a baby? Did someone get hit by a motorcycle, you know, and just have to drop everything and leave because someone is in pain or having an emergency? And I really honor my parents. I mean, going into the medical field, I believe that doctors and nurses are absolute healers and angels, and they sit with people in just the hardest moments of their lives, especially nurses. I will say, like, it's an amazing vocation, and I honor that. Both of my parents have done that work, and I was just like, straight up, that is not for me. And so I knew that I wanted more freedom because it was one of the biggest heartbreaks of my childhood that I felt like my mom wasn't there a lot. Now, as a mom who works and I just got on an airplane this morning and said goodbye to both of my daughters, and they have both said to me many times, no, mama, I want you to stay home. Why are you going? Da, da da da. I have to keep checking in with myself and being like, okay, is this too much? Am I recreating a situation where it's going to be a heartbreak from their childhood that I wasn't there? But what I've come to, because I'm always checking in with myself about these things, what I've come to is that my work makes me come alive. Going on the road with a six and a nine year old to go do a podcast would just, like, be Logistically, like, annoying. They're happier at school right now, you know, they're older.
- [07:05]
A
Yeah.
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B
And I. When I am with them, I am with them. I can pick them up from school. I go to all of their school functions. I'm able to really be able to fully choose and be fully present and available. And I never have somebody else calling to say I have to go and that I think that they can feel, so. But back to the question about my mom. You know, it was tricky and it gave me real insider access to what a career like that looks like behind the scenes and the pieces that I would keep and the pieces that I would throw out.
- [07:42]
A
Yeah, that makes total sense. Did you feel a difference between feeling like you wanted more time with your mom? Did you feel that same way about your dad? Or did you have a story that you should get more time with your mom? Because I know when I reflect on my childhood, I didn't have as much expectations of my dad as I did of my mum.
- [07:59]
B
I know. I think that's a bit cultural. I think it's different now. You know, Mike, my husband, is with the kids just as much as I am. He's, you know, we are full all in parents. But in the 80s, I was being raised, like, it wasn't the same thing. I mean, my dad was there, but. And my dad was present to the degree he was present. But I don't know if it's karmic or whatever, but I don't have wounding around that with my dad. I just was like, whatever, you know. And then my parents got divorced when I was. They separated when I was 15. So after that, like, it was very much just all in with my mom and I didn't really go back and forth a whole lot. So that was also a very different kind of relationship.
- [08:41]
A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It's so interesting how societally and culturally we do have that more. More expectation on the mum than the dad. And I'm really glad it's changing, but it's so ingrained.
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B
It is so ingrained. But I was thinking about that very thing this morning.
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A
Yeah.
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B
As I literally was wheeling my bag out at 7am to get in an Uber to go to the airport to come here, and I'm opening the door to leave and I had this feeling of like, I've just hugged and kissed my girls in their pajamas. They were 100% fine. They were just like, bye, Mama, see you. We bring us something. Yeah. And what I was present to was how different. Because I was playing this exact thing. I would Throw myself at my mother's feet and beg her not to leave. Like, full hysterics. Losing it. Like, beg her. That has not happened with my girls. And I was thinking about, like, why is it that, like, you know, last night they were like, oh, mom, can you not go? Da, da, da. But this morning they really didn't care, which is such a freaking blessing.
- [09:43]
A
It's so nice when they let you go.
- [09:45]
B
She. Which is great. And I was thinking about why. And I think in my case, which was different than when I was growing up, my husband is so all in. He's so attuned to the girls. They have such a strong, healthy attachment with both of us equally in different ways, you know, that their little systems feel so safe and whole with him. There's nothing like missing. Of course they'd like me to be home, but they feel equally as safe and nurtured and tended to and cared for with him as they do with me. And I'm really grateful that we've created that.
- [10:24]
A
That's such a beautiful reflection. I love that when you talk about you were throwing yourself at your mom's feet and asking her not to go.
- [10:30]
B
So brutal.
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A
Brutal. But I know so many women listening can relate to this because they're dealing with this now. They've got big careers, and their kids are like, no, don't go. And it's this constant pull. Most of the women who listen to this podcast are breadwinners of their family, too. And so a good ch.
- [10:44]
B
Drunk.
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A
About 50% are mothers and breadwinners. So I know they're really relating to this. And I'm curious, as you got older, was there repair that needed to happen with yours and your mum's relationship? Did you feel a distance because of the distance?
- [10:57]
B
A really good question. You know, so my mom closed her practice when I was 16, and she stopped seeing patients, and she went full time speaking and writing, and it was interesting. And, you know, I think a lot of parenting experts and. And therapists talk about repair and how repair can actually be more powerful than the injury itself, than the original injury. As long as repair is available. It's almost like no wound is a foregone conclusion. You know, no wound is irreparable. So starting when my dad moved out and my sister went to college at the same time, and so all of a sudden, we were a family of four, and then it was just me and my mom, and she closed her practice, like, all basically within a year. So we spent so much time together, and she was home every day When I got home from school, from high school, basically, probably what my. My sophomore, junior, senior year when I was 16, 17, 18, and I would just come in, she renovated our garage and turned it into her office. So I would come in, throw my backpack down, and like, lay on this couch she had and just tell her about my day. And she was there a lot. Those last several years were actually really powerful. And I think a lot of moms of older kids have told me that their kids have needed them more as they've become adolescent, or at least in a different way than they did when they were young children. Because with young children, the needs are so physical, but as our kids get older, the needs are actually really emotional. And what our kids are craving is emotional attunement and to be listened to. And I can already see it with my daughter, who's nine. Every night she wants me to get in bed with her and just lay with her. And she just talks and she just tells me, who even knows what? I'm just like, stuff comes out, and she's just got a lot to empty out. And I'm so grateful that I can be there, share and hear all of that. And my mom did that for me, you know, to a large extent. And we were. Yeah, we were. We were very close. And so I. You know, there's definitely some sadness, but she's been really great about open conversations and has apologized for ways she couldn't be there. And also, just, I will say, as such a pioneer, she. You know, she went to medical school at a time when it was still very unusual for a woman to become a doctor. It was at a time when, I don't know if anybody saw the movie about Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
- [13:20]
A
Yes.
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B
And there's that scene where she's at either Yale or Harvard Law School. I don't remember which one. And it's very clear that, like, as the only woman at the table, it is assumed that she is taking a man's spot and that there's something wrong with that and she better prove herself. And I. When I was watching that scene, I was so aware that that was the same era that my mom was in medical school. And it helped me understand her so much better to just be like, she didn't have the choices I have. There was no social media women who were her fellow doctors were not, like, standing shoulder to shoulder like we are, where it's like, hey, let me support what you're up to. Let me share with you what's working. It was like, you know, Every woman for herself. And if you got a spot, everyone was trying to compete with you. And she was also supposed to be competing with the men. And so I'm very grateful to her and the women who have come before us because we wouldn't have what we have without them. And so as much as we have needed to do some repair work, I'm just really conscious of the limitations of the culture at that time and that she did the best she could.
- [14:27]
A
Yeah. Seeing that level of success did that. I mean, it must. It must have been an amazing blueprint, first and foremost, to be like, wait, that exists for me. Like, I could go and do something like that. Did you ever feel this, like, expectation, like, my mum's successful, so I better be successful?
- [14:44]
B
I think the opposite. So it's very interesting because I was thinking about this as. As we were talking and I was hearing a little bit more about your background and, like, what drove you in a way. And this has been true for both me and my sister. I think that being raised in a household that felt visible in some ways. You know, I think my mom was on Oprah for the first time when I was, like, 13 or so. So it was. It was part of our. And we lived in a small town. So it was also this feeling of, like, small town, famous mom. It was just a little.
- [15:16]
A
Everyone knows you.
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B
Yeah. Which everyone knows you anyway in a small town. But there was this extra feeling of, like, separation that I experienced where it felt like people related to me as separate.
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A
Right.
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B
As, like, not part of everyone else because of this extra layer of visibility. And, like, people treated me like either I was different or like, I was special. And I just so wanted to fit in. Like, I just wanted to be one of the girls. I just wanted to be part of the group. I just wanted my mom to be like everyone else's mom. And she just wasn't. And so. And she wasn't, regardless of her career, quite frankly, she was never going to.
- [15:52]
A
Be like the other.
- [15:53]
B
That really had nothing to do with her career. She's just a wild card. But. And I love that about her now as one of the weird moms, I'm like, I see. So the thing is that because of seeing that career and the impact it had on me and then also our family, I think it had a slightly opposite effect, which is that I pumped the brakes a lot on my business in super unconscious ways. So, for example, I was in my early 20s, like, moving and shaking, doing all my things. I was selling you. And I have this in Common, I was selling supplements. They weren't a supplement that I created, but I was in network marketing, and I built a very successful business with that. And then I started my blog, and I realized that you could make money online. And it was very exciting. And I was all freaking over the place. Like, I was like, I'm over here. I'm over here now. I'm talking about this now. I'm talking about that now. And I'm in financial chaos. And so there was a large extent that I was going for it, yet at the same time doing everything in my power to make sure that I didn't get too big. Because when my mom's career really took off was when my parents got divorced. And so there was an imprint that I had of like, oh, I can be a certain amount of success, but if I really go for it, I'll lose everything. Because that was what was modeled. Now, that has not been the case. Of course, we heal these things. I've worked on these things a lot. But I would say that it. While I did have the imprinting of, like, oh, yeah, this is possible for me, I really had the imprinting of what was at stake. And so I held back and I had my foot on the gas and the brake at the same time a lot.
- [17:38]
A
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's so fascinating, isn't it, how we'll either completely copy or completely reject a pattern that we see growing up. And it's so interesting when you really dig into people's childhood, you're like, oh, that makes sense. Like, I can totally see it. I mean, so fast forward, you obviously now have a very, very visible career and you have built an incredible business, and you're doing it while also mothering. And I was on your podcast earlier, and we were talking, you briefly mentioned motherhood changed you a lot, and you had a full identity reckoning, let's call it. That's something that I talk about a lot on this podcast. That was such a defining moment for me. I'm so curious what your experience was. I love to dig into that.
- [18:19]
B
Yeah, I. You know, based on the vignettes you've shared, I think there's some similarities. Motherhood. So giving birth itself really rocked me. I grew up in a super birth positive household. Like, my sister and I were raised on home birth documentaries.
- [18:34]
A
Wait, that's so interesting if your mom was an obgyn, right?
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B
Well, here's the thing. She, yes, she would have had a home birth herself, but she was afraid of what her colleagues would Say, interesting. So my mom was really trying to toe the line as a holistic doctor. She was really, like, the first to start saying that our emotional experiences have an impact on our health.
- [19:02]
A
Wow.
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B
Like, yeah. And so people thought she was crazy.
- [19:05]
A
Yeah, I can imagine, because I thought she was crazy.
- [19:08]
B
She was starting to say those sorts of things in the late 70s, early 80s.
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A
And it's still not normal in the medical community.
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B
No.
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A
34. Oh, my God. 40 years later. Let's.
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B
Right, so 20 years.
- [19:19]
A
Yeah.
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B
So anyway, the reason I say that is there was what she was. You know, she taught us certain things that were, like, what she really believed in. And one of them was about, like, the power of the female body and that we are designed to give birth. And we. And a lot of medical intervention, you know, can really screw with things. And so I thought that I was going to be able to. I was like, I'm the one person on the planet who clearly can orchestrate the perfect birth because I was raised in a household where, like, this is what we ate for breakfast. Like, you know, like, female empowerment, body positivity. So birth positive. Anyway, everything happened totally differently because it needed to for me, particularly around the depth of compassion I needed to develop for, like, what the human experience actually is. And then we can't control shit. So I had a birth that was wildly different from what I had imagined. I labored at home until I was 10cm and then had an abrupt transition in an ambulance. And. Yeah, and my girl was coming out one foot up, one foot down. So it was. Yeah, it was an urgency section and then a stay in the hospital and a whole thing. And she was quite sick. So that in and of itself was dramatic and quite traumatic. And then it started me off on the path of motherhood in. I was. I was traumatized. And I didn't know it and I didn't have support because as I shared that story of my parents with the car seats in the hospital parking lot, like, it hadn't occurred to me that I would need any help. And at three months postpartum, we finally hired a nanny for 10 hours a week, which I thought was so much time. Funny story, she was actually one of my nannies. So we hired.
- [21:11]
A
Wow.
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B
So we hired. Our Penelope's first nanny was one of my nannies when I was growing up. She's an amazing woman. But anyway, yeah, I thought, like, 10 hours a week would be more than enough to run my business in. And so, as you might imagine, traumatic birth, you know, lack of sleep, nursing issues, sick baby Penelope was, like, waking up every 10 minutes at night screaming, scratching herself. Her eczema was so severe, her sheets were covered in blood all the time. If I were to show you a picture of what she looked like, it was pretty horrifying. And I was so in it that I just didn't know how bad it was. And I was fully in survival mode. So as a result, I was like, what business? Like, literally, like, I don't even know who I am, what's my name? Let alone, like, so what we had done, which I'm very proud of, very proud of what happened in full survival mode. Like, basically during a year that brought me to my knees, and I was just trying to make it through the next five minutes. I just did the bare minimum because that's. I didn't even have time to think about what would be the bare minimum. It was just like, every man for himself. It felt like a war zone. So I just got done, like, literally the bare minimum. And what happened was so cool. A year after Penelope was born, we sat with our accountant, and we realized we had made twice as much money that year. And I was like, wait, I'm sorry. What have I been doing my entire adult life? If I could, like, get by on a wing and a prayer on no sleep and make twice as much money, I would never repeat that year for anything. It was beyond brutal. Worst year of my life, I will be honest. I mean, Penelope's the best thing, but, like, it was the worst year. And also I was like, there's got to be something to this. There's got to be something to this. And ultimately, that experience is what I wrote do less about. I was always like, if I can make twice as much working essentially 10 hours a week, I need to figure out how I did this. So I worked backwards, figured out what it was that I did, and operationalized it.
- [23:18]
A
I love that. And it's. It's not always fun to hear, but we really don't learn a lot when things are so good.
- [23:24]
B
We really don't.
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A
But when.
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B
What a bummer.
- [23:27]
A
Yeah. But when your back's really up against the wall and you find yourself in the most challenging spots, you learn so much. There's so many parallels between our experiences, I mean, in so many ways. But my birth also was really traumatic. Ended up in C section, and I think I had a lot of anxiety trapped in my body from that, that it was showing up postpartum. But no one really prepares you for birth trauma and what to do. And, you know, you might need Support and all the things that just. I still feel even now, you know, it's becoming more of a conversation, but only when you look for it. And I feel like sometimes when you look for it, it's a little bit too late. But it's so interesting because in those moments where it feels like you're a shell of a human being, most of the time is when the biggest downloads and the biggest lessons come to you because you're just in that full surrender mode. Like, I've got nothing else to give, like, I'm just trying to survive. And it's like, that's where the wisdom comes in. Because when you're. I don't know, when things are good and you're busy and just, like, going with your rhythm, it's just like, you're often too busy to look for the lessons. But then in moments like that, you can't ignore them because there's no hiding from anything.
- [24:32]
B
It's so true. And the other cool thing is that the female brain changes in some pretty dramatic ways when we become mothers that are really supposed supportive actually of business.
- [24:44]
A
Ooh.
- [24:44]
B
You know, it helps us to really. The part of our brain that is good at sifting and sorting for what matters and what doesn't gets much bigger. And so it's just like, no more bullshit. I have nothing available for any of this. So I love that it makes us so much better at. At setting boundaries and our ability to have a more. What's the word? Like, just more of a like, covered focus on what's happening is actually obviously so necessary for our child because you can be aware of just like, the tiniest sense of a sound or a funny feeling or whatever. Right. You get this, like, hazy sense of just everything.
- [25:28]
A
Yeah.
- [25:29]
B
And while that can lead to some hypervigilance and micromanaging in your business, it can also really help us to use that sort of spidey sense for what's needed from a deep, intuitive level in our businesses that may actually be beyond the data. Right. You know, I know you have those circumstances where it's like, yeah, all these numbers are looking good and whatever, but I just have a sense, like, I'll never forget one that happened. We had. So, oh, my God, I'll literally never forget. I was sitting in my nursing rocker.
- [26:01]
A
Listening all the magic comments.
- [26:04]
B
Right. Penelope was, I don't know, a year. Let's say a year and change. Year and change. And I was listening to our friend James Wedmore's podcast after I gave birth to her. I don't Know what happened, but I was like, addicted to James's podcast.
- [26:19]
A
Wait, I never told him that.
- [26:23]
B
I would walk up and down the road with her in her, the little, like, baby carrier. Just like listening to James. I don't know what that was about.
- [26:30]
A
But anyway, I love that so much.
- [26:32]
B
I'm going to tell him. So I don't remember what podcast I was listening to or what happened, but at the time, one of the things that was really working for us in our business and part of the reason that I could work so little and make so much money is we had an unbelievable evergreen funnel working. I love behind the scenes. Like, it was killing. We were, you know, I was, it was bringing in. And for us at the time, this was like, it was bringing in 50k a month doing that. Like, literally I was doing nothing for that dream.
- [27:03]
A
Everyone needs a fun.
- [27:04]
B
And that was back in the day, right? Like, that was back in the day. Meta was a very different play space at that time. I. If I had known things were going to shift so dramatically, I would have freaking doubled down. But here's what happened. So I'm listening to James and I realize, oh, my God. Because the ads we were running, which were working so well, were debt focused. So because my program was called the Money Love course, we sold over 5,000 of those, those puppies. Like, we did great. But the automated webinar was focused on the four surprising. Four surprising strategies or four unconventional strategies or something to get out of debt.
- [27:40]
A
Right?
- [27:40]
B
It worked so well. Here's the problem. We were paying to fill our funnel with people who were in debt. And so I was like, for the longevity of our business, this is going to be a serious problem. And it was just one of those moments of like, I just knew. And I just was like, mike, we have to pull the plug on that funnel. And unfortunately, shifting to abundance language never made it perform as well for obvious psychological trigger reasons. But we never were able to get it to perform. But I just was like, I can't focus on filling our list with people in debt. That is not going to be a long term play. So that was an example of like having that deeper intuition that grows when we become moms.
- [28:22]
A
I really advocate for that so much. And I. And I often don't even try and justify it to my team. I'm like, I don't know. But I just know this isn't the path. And I just think we have to trust that. And we know our businesses so much more. We know our clients inside out. We have to trust that so going back to then, you were working probably 10 hours a week in your business. You did double the amount of revenue, and it's really shaped your body of work and what you do now. So what are those principles that you run your business by now? Because I really admire the amount of freedom that you've created in your life through your business. It's amazing. And it's, you know, getting to know you. You really. You really are who you say you are. Right? Like, it matches. And I just think the way that you live your life and the way that you stand for what's important to you is really incredible. So how. How do you do that practically in your business?
- [29:13]
B
So some of the principles, you know, it really comes back to the body for me. And for me, the biggest thing that shifted after I had Penelope was when she was 113 months old. I was still nursing, but I got my period back. So it took 13 months postpartum. And I, for the first time in my life, was fascinated to the point of obsession about tracking my cycle. Because I was such an anxious wreck and can relate. Suddenly I just focused all my energy on, like, tracking my cycle. I got completely into learning about the moon, learning about the menstrual cycle, the four phases of the menstrual cycle, the different ways our hormones change, the different ways that changes our brain at every single phase of the month. And I realized, oh, I had been operating my entire life, you know, all through school, academia, my early work days, you know, getting trained in the business world, operating in a constant, perpetual spring and summer. So perpetual spring and summer is the masculine. It's solar energy. It's wonderful. It's visible results. And in our menstrual cycle, it is the follicular and the ovulation phases. So it's the time when you have stopped bleeding, and it's the week after your cycle, you're very high in estrogen. And then it's the time around ovulation when you're peak fertility, peak motivation, peak energy, peppy, happy lifestyle, cheerful, social, I love my husband. Optimistic, like all of that, right? Very available. And then as our hormones begin to shift into the luteal phase and then into our menstrual phase, we turn within. And that full half of the cycle is the feminine energy. It's the inward energy. It's what we can't see under the surface that is invisible, that is essential for the whole other half of the cycle. And I realized, like I was operating, if I had been the Earth, I would be barren because the earth does not do spring, summer, spring, summer, spring, summer, spring, summer. But our work world does spring, summer. And then we are assuming that we are failing if we don't have a visible result. And that just hit me between the eyeballs when Penelope was one year old and I remember so well, I read a million books, did all the research, sat my mom down and asked her all the questions. Because I also was literally raised with this information, but could have given two shits. I just like, at the time, I just was like, not interested. When my mom wanted to talk to me about my period, I just was like. But later when I was 33, I was like, tell me everything. I'm ready. I'm ready now. It was probably the best day of her life. She was like, finally.
- [31:54]
A
I mean, waiting in man of reminder.
- [31:57]
B
For me as the mom of girls, like, they're going to take in what they want. We don't need to push. And the information is available. So what I got clear on is that there were these four unique phases and they were all equally valuable and necessary for creation. So I wrote this blog post because at the time I was known for teaching about money cut to now 20, 25, known for that again. But there was, there was this middle chunk that I did something adjacent but slightly different. And I wrote a blog post called make mother nature your financial planner. And still out there, if anybody, there's a great download that goes with it. Because I was like, oh, what if people started applying their cyclical nature to their finances that could actually make women help women who are financially avoidant, who are like more in this goddessy, spiritual, crunchy granola world, right? Like, maybe that could get them excited about doubling down and paying really good loving attention to their money. And so that ended up kicking off. I wrote the blog post and I was so excited about it and I was like, oh my God, I'm so excited. Maybe I should teach like a workshop about this. And Mike was like, this is not a workshop. This is your membership. Oh. So, so then we did the origin membership really around cyclical awareness and having a do less business.
- [33:19]
A
And is that still something that you run your business by? Is that still how you operate? How does that practically work? Do you map it out in your calendar? Like, what does it look like?
- [33:28]
B
It's much more subtle. Okay, so I will be honest. I used to be very much more heavy handed with it. Where it was like, this week is this. This week, is this. This week is this. Now it's just like a giant overlay of Permission to do what I feel like doing?
- [33:44]
A
Yeah.
- [33:44]
B
When I feel like doing it.
- [33:45]
A
Yeah.
- [33:45]
B
And now does that mean I'm late on deliverables because I have my period? No. Does that mean I like cancel speaking gigs because I'm luteal? No. Like I am a human being operating in our business world. However, what's really different now is I have so much more buffer. I used to just schedule myself within an inch of my life because I was so brainwashed to think that if I wasn't producing a visible result, if I wasn't doing something at all times, then I wasn't valuable and I wasn't contributing to the company. Like I had to be essentially doing an income generating activity at all times in order to be a valid human. And now I'm just like, whatever, just read some novels, watch some daytime tv. I mean I spend of. I. I have like a lot of leisure time. I do. And it's the best. So that has changed. And then the way we schedule our launches in the company allows so much more spaciousness for the team. And so we do. We are pretty seasonal. We have one major launch a year that's a live launch and everything else is pretty chill. So we are like in season, March and April and then I teach the course. But like that is all on, quite frankly, really easy for me. Yeah, the whole thing is relatively easy, but it requires some focus and presence. Yeah, but it's. And then the rest of the year is pretty chill. And I love that because the do less philosophy is not about doing nothing. It's about cyclicality. Spring and summer do exist. We absolutely need to do things. We need to do the right things at the right time. And so I've. We've set up the company to do more of what matters, less of what doesn't matter. Hopefully none of what doesn't matter, but you know, it sneaks in there and just like have a lot more spaciousness.
- [35:27]
A
I think that's such a great way to do it too because I mean, when we started reducing the amount of launches we were doing, the launches got bigger.
- [35:34]
B
Last year we only did one instead of the two we had done the previous years. We made the year before. We had done 1.1 overall between both the second the year we only did one of them, we made 1.9.
- [35:49]
A
Is that amazing? Like just proof.
- [35:51]
B
Doing it one time nearly doubled what, like what is even happening?
- [35:55]
A
Double the output either.
- [35:57]
B
Not at all.
- [35:58]
A
Yeah, no. It's mind blowing how, how that works. You have to have the courage to test it.
- [36:03]
B
And we had to have the courage in the middle of the launch, because I was like, if I. This is your only chance this year. As you said, how I am behind the scenes is how I am in front. It matches. If I say this is the only time next this year, I'm not coming out and spinning the messaging six months later because my launch didn't do well. I'm not. I'm just not. If I were ever to do that, I would come out and say, hey, this launch didn't go as well as we needed it to. We're doing it again. Like, I would just be straight up, for better or for worse. So in the middle, in the. In the launch, we were like, are we fully committed that this is the only time this year? And it felt like a leap. It was like. And we just said, yep, we're saying this. This is it. It's just the one time. And because people, you know, people dilly.
- [36:51]
A
Dally, and they're like, oh, just do it later.
- [36:54]
B
They were like, oh, this is the only time this year. I guess now is the time. And I was like, yep, now is the time. And so it made it so much more successful, and it really conserved a tremendous amount of energy for us. And then the second half of the year, I was able to get a book proposal in, which was great.
- [37:07]
A
Amazing.
- [37:07]
B
It was, like, really hard to write. That turns out for me, I. Yeah.
- [37:11]
A
I think there's so much to that. The. Just the courage to be willing to channel your energy in one direction.
- [37:18]
B
Yeah, it is a leap of faith.
- [37:20]
A
It is. But clearly it pays off. Something else you said, which I'm so curious about, which I really relate to, is how for so long you equated your busyness to your value. How did you first understand that you were running that pattern? And secondly, how did you begin to break that? Because that is a tough one.
- [37:38]
B
That is a tough one. And society programs us to think that. So I just want to be super clear. When we are consuming media, whether it is a podcast, a book, a movie, social media, we are in a passive theta brain state, which means we are basically being hypnotized. If you read the science on hypnotism and hypnotherapy, which is a powerful modality, I'm not talking about, like, hypnotist shows.
- [38:05]
A
Yeah, right.
- [38:06]
B
Okay. Just to be clear, this is not like getting people to, like, cluck like a chicken, but actual hypnotherapy is. Is powerful. And that same brain programming is working at all times, so we cannot it's become so cliche to say, like, be careful the media you're consuming because it's shaping you. Once you read the neuroscience of this, you will never be able to forget.
- [38:32]
A
Yeah, it is.
- [38:32]
B
And. And like, with our kids, we. Anyway, that's like a whole other thing, but we just really need to be thinking about what are we consuming and. And choose the models that show us women who find themselves valuable, who are making a powerful contribution while also taking a whole bunch of downtime and fill our feeds with those things. Read books about them, and stop idolizing. Oh, wow, look how much she does. Wow. She does it all. Oh, she's so strong.
- [39:05]
A
She's superwoman.
- [39:06]
B
She just, you know, she just recovered from this incredible illness, and now she's running a marathon and she's having a 25th baby and, like, renovating her house and making sourdough. Cool. Let's celebrate her. Like, when I see that, I'm like, this woman is stretched. Like, this woman is not. Well. Yeah, I do. Yeah. So, okay. Anyway, how did I get over it? When I was pregnant with Penelope, I remember, like, reading in that little. You know, the little app that's like, oh, your baby's a lima bean now. It's a complex. Yeah, whatever. And I remember reading, like, oh, like this basically, all in the first trimester, you've made every single organ in a human body. I just made a liver, and I didn't have to put it on a to do list. Like, I didn't have to know anything about that, and my body just did that. I. I was like, this is the most productive thing I have ever done. And I have not really done anything other than had sex one time. I mean, for the baby.
- [40:05]
A
You know, when you have a hot sex once, the.
- [40:08]
B
Just the two.
- [40:09]
A
Twice now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [40:11]
B
Can you imagine?
- [40:12]
A
Yes.
- [40:13]
B
No. But I was just like, there was something about that lived experience that changed me forever. And then I was like, oh, you don't need to. I don't need to be calculating and making a list and having a strategy. My mind is not the most powerful part of me. There's a lot more going on, and I need to just, like, let go and surrender. And then also, you know, there was a huge experience of I wasn't making enough milk and she was struggling and she was losing weight. And so all the reading I was doing around realizing that, actually, the more relaxed a mother is, the more supported she is, the more breast milk supply there is. And the metaphor of that is like, oh, I'm literally starving. My child, if I'm doing too much and if I'm under supported, that's not good.
- [41:00]
A
And did that actually change your milk supply, learning that?
- [41:04]
B
I wish it did.
- [41:05]
A
Yeah.
- [41:06]
B
I would like to say I did end up sitting in bed quite a bit, drinking Guinness and eating lactation cookies, because I just was like, well, my job now is to make breast milk. But the lesson ended up being there that I just needed to surrender and start supplementing, which I did. I got to 11 months.
- [41:26]
A
It's amazing.
- [41:27]
B
Yeah. Being the most controlling, pumping, breastfeeding mother you could ever imagine. I would go apeshit if somebody fed her more ounces than I had. It was. It was fully insane. It's those times where I was batshit crazy.
- [41:43]
A
I mean, I look back at the first year of being a mom, and I was fully batshit crazy. I mean, like, I don't have words for it, but what's really interesting is actually for being this, you know, high achieving control, every single thing. The one thing I was so laid back about was breastfeeding. And it was the easiest part of my journey. Isn't that crazy? I remember. I remember when I was pregnant with her saying, you know, I don't even know if I want to breastfeed. I don't know. I don't care. Just being very relaxed about it. And then when she was born, she had a latch issue, so we got a tongue tie reversal. And I give her the formula that the hospital gives me, which is so full of chemicals and seed oils. They were like, we need to do nipple rest for 24 hours. We're gonna give her this formula. Like, okay, cool. I'm like, no, I need longer. I need 48 hours. Just keep giving her this formula. I didn't even want to look at what was in the bottle. And. And then I was like, you know what? I'm gonna give this a shot again. Started feeding her, and I was like, you know, if I make it to one month, I'm proud. And I ended up going 22 months, not a single issue because I. I think because I was so laid back, but it was the only one part of anything I was laid back about.
- [42:52]
B
That's such a good metaphor. The only part, it's just like, that is everything. Could we apply that to our businesses?
- [42:59]
A
Imagine.
- [42:59]
B
Could we apply that to our finances? Could we apply that to visibility? Like, all of it, to just give ourselves a freaking break?
- [43:08]
A
Yeah.
- [43:08]
B
I think if I had applied that to my nursing experience, it would have been much easier. It was with my second.
- [43:15]
A
Yeah.
- [43:15]
B
Oh, My God. She popped out latched. We were like, oh, hello, we're done. Easiest thing I've ever done.
- [43:21]
A
It's just it. But I even think with my birth, you know, my birth was the complete opposite of what I would ever have wished and planned for. And I remember having a doula at the time and she said, do you have a birthday birth plan? I said, I absolutely do. Very detailed birth plan. And I have to call out, I'm available for everything but a C section. And I ended up having one. So it's so fascinating when I look back at like, everything I held on to so tightly just was really not what I wanted. But whatever was loosely held on, I was like, I don't care was the easiest part.
- [43:50]
B
It's going to be really interesting how things develop, you know, as you go. I know, like, and see be just so.
- [43:58]
A
And I'm so curious about that.
- [43:59]
B
It's gonna be interesting. And I think that, like, we can't. It's. It's such a good reminder that like, life cannot be controlled. We are on a journey. Yes. I believe we definitely direct our paths. I'm not like, oh, everything's faded. We have no, you know, we have no play. Obviously we make choices all the time. But I think about it more as like, we are sailors. It's our job to set, you know, set the sails, decide where's the rudder, you know, use our, use our tiller or whatever. But ultimately, like, we can't control the wind, we can't control what's going on with the seas. We just gotta ride it. Literally. Just. Yeah. And birth prepares you for that in a way that nothing else can.
- [44:38]
A
Yeah. And there's so many experiences think that we, we all go through, whether it's birth or whether it's some kind of life changing moment that you'll go through and you'll never be the same because you really just get pushed your limits in every single way. And it's almost like you get shown the truth that you can never shy away from again. It's wild. Yes. So fast forward with, you know, early motherhood to now. Your oldest is 9. Looking back to how you were then and how you are now in a way of just how you're living life in the multiple roles that you have. How are things different? What are some things that you've carried with you and what are some things you've let go of? How is it now?
- [45:16]
B
I'm so into being a mom right now. It is my favorite. It's the best thing ever I had a really hard time in the early days. You know, I talked about Penelope. When Ruby was born, Mike broke out in a full body rash and was essentially sick on and off until really, even this fall, he was. He was sick on and off and, like, had some. Got hit by a car in the middle. So we. We had, like, a really rough season as a family. So I didn't enjoy, unfortunately, the baby years or the toddler years, particularly super survival mode, just waiting for them to get older. And people were like, oh, it goes so fast. I was like, nope, this is brutal.
- [45:56]
A
I hope it goes faster.
- [45:57]
B
I feel like I'm being tortured.
- [45:58]
A
Yeah.
- [45:59]
B
Like. And of course, like, I was so into my children, but the actual experience, I was like, don't love this.
- [46:06]
A
Yeah.
- [46:07]
B
And now I'm just having the time of my life. I love it so much. It's the best. They're so funny. They're so funny. And they're just like. Like, such delightful humans who I enjoy spending time with. And that's so great. I'm like, wow, not only do I love you, I actually really like you. That's so cool. So, yeah, I mean, I think that with the girls now, I just really want to support what they're into. It's a little hard. Like, Ruby, my little one, has picked up the violin, and I know she needs to practice, but I'm like, if we're really on her about practicing, is it going to create, like, this rebellion, repulsion? So it's really that. Like, again, we're still talking about control. Knowing when to let go, knowing when to trust, knowing when to apply a little pressure. And that's hard. But I will say what has helped me immensely and those early years did require this. I didn't have as much skill in. It is when I can expand my range of tolerance, my range of resonance. The healthier my nervous system gets, gets, the better mother I am. I can just be with them in any state. And the. Penelope said it was, like, the best compliment I have ever had. She was talking about, I think, a guidance counselor at school. And she said the guidance counselor was like a feelings therapist, which was so cute. I love the way she was describing it. And she was like, mama, you're like my feelings therapist. And I just like, that is everything I could ever want, is for my child to feel safe with me, to feel her full range of feelings and know that they're all okay. I'm not gonna judge her. They all have value, you know, and. And that's been a real journey with her. So I will say that's what's different now. I just, like, have so much more capacity, and I'm so grateful for it because they're so fun.
- [47:58]
A
I love that you've talked about just being in survival season and not enjoying those stages for multiple reasons, because I know there's a lot of people listening that are to that really hard. But all the languaging they see in social media is the years are so short. Savor every moment. I mean, even I get caught up in this trap of, like, I'll see. We did this with our child every. Every birthday since they were one. And, like. And I'm looking at it just like, oh, my God, she's only two. And I feel so behind.
- [48:24]
B
I'm just not that kind of mom. I'm not.
- [48:26]
A
But I have to. I have to really remind myself of, like, what's been really helpful for me as a mom is, like, coming up with my core values of, like, yes. How I want to show up. And I have to be really honest with myself. I'm not the most playful mom. Like, I don't love getting down on the floor and, like, playing pretend. It's so exhaustive.
- [48:44]
B
But then I'll see.
- [48:45]
A
So no people loving it. And then I'll know. I would notice myself judging myself. But the minute I brought it back to, that's not one of my values, and that's not what I'm bringing to the table here.
- [48:56]
B
Well, it's just like, in your business.
- [48:58]
A
Yeah.
- [48:58]
B
Right. Like, you and I don't have our whole company based on a high keynote fee. Right. Because we don't want to be on airplanes away from our kids. We don't want to be staying in random hotels in, like, you know, whatever. I was going to say a city. But then we're listening from that city. So just wherever, you know, wherever you might be, like, that's not our business model for a reason. And a family is just like a business. We have to build it around who we are, not who other people are, not who we think we should be. And I always think about, like, my kids chose me for a reason. That's my belief for their own soul lessons. And, like, they. I. I do not play with them. Like, that's absolutely not happening. I read books with them sometimes. We cook, we snuggle, we do stuff. We go to cafes. Like, I really have tried to incorporate them in what I like to do.
- [49:49]
A
Yep.
- [49:50]
B
Because then I'm lit up. Or we find common ground in what we both are enjoying, and then they get the most lit up mom. And I, I know that what is valuable for a child is having a mom who is alive, who is happy, who is well resourced. And we know that from the data. We know that the most significant factor in a child's wellbeing is their mother. Well, and so that's our job. And so, yeah, like, don't get. Yeah. You don't want to get down on the floor and play. No, don't do that.
- [50:19]
A
I love, I just love that so much because so much of it, whether it's motherhood or business, we, we pitch ourselves against a picture of what we actually don't want to be. And I catch myself in it all the time. You know, someone will be sharing with me a strategy that's working so well in business and I'll find myself getting excited about it and then I'll catch myself. I'm like, wait, I don't want that kind of business and I don't want that kind of life. It's okay to love that for them, but do not try and implement it yourself. But I can notice it and I have to catch it.
- [50:47]
B
It's so good to be able to catch that fat best. And I think it's a beautiful thing also to like to try on different possibilities in lives and be open, you know, and also that'll get us in a lot of trouble.
- [50:58]
A
A lot of places you don't want to be in.
- [51:01]
B
For sure. Yeah.
- [51:02]
A
Oh my goodness. I love this conversation so much.
- [51:05]
B
It was fun to talk about motherhood. I don't usually talk that much about being a mom.
- [51:09]
A
I really want to talk to you about this. I've been so excited.
- [51:12]
B
I, I will say, like, ultimately I do want to just say for those listening who have a big career, are building a big career, are the primary breadwinner, are a significant breadwinner, you know, and feeling that kind of mom guilt, I will say as someone who was raised by a mother who was out there making big things happen in the world in a very visible, very successful way, she paved the path for me and I'm so grateful and I'm so proud of her. And I think I turned out pretty great. So I think so too. Your kids will be fine. That's what I want to say.
- [51:43]
A
I think that's really beautiful to say and it's really, like I said, unique to be able to have a conversation with someone who grew up in the 80s with a mum like this, because it's just very, very rare. And I know if your mum listens she's going to be so proud of this conversation too. So thank you. Where can everyone find you?
- [51:57]
B
You can find me on Instagram at Kate northrup and kate northrup.com My podcast is plenty and it's all about the kinds of abundance we can find in our lives, financially and otherwise.
- [52:08]
A
Amazing. I love your podcast so much. It's very soothing on my nervous system when I listen. I really love it. Thank you so much for being here. Wait wait wait. Before you go, I would love to send you my 7 figure CEO operating system completely free as a gift. All you've got to do is leave us a review on this podcast because it really supports the growth of this show. This is my digital masterclass where I'll show you what my freedom based daily, weekly and monthly schedule looks like as an eight figure CEO, mama and high performer and I'll walk you through step by step how to create this for yourself. It includes a full video training from me and a plug and play spreadsheet to literally create your own operating system. It's one of our best trainings and it's worth $1,997. But I will unlock access for you for free when you leave us a review. I know, wild right? All you have to do is leave your review on the podcast, take a screenshot of it and then head over to bossbab.comreview to upload it and then you'll get instant access to the seven figure CEO operating system. Again, head over to BossBab.comreview to upload your screenshot and get access. We are so so grateful for all of your support and can't wait to hear how the podcast has supported.