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466: We Sold a Company for $745M - Here’s the Reality Behind The Scenes: A Raw Conversation with Kass + Mike Lazerow
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- [00:00]
Natalie Ellis
Welcome back to the Boss Babe podcast. So today's episode we have Mike and Cas Lazarow, who are serial entrepreneurs and investors best known as the co founders of Golf.com and Buddy Media, which is the leading social media marketing platform that sold to Salesforce for $745 million. This episode was one of my favorites in a really, really long time. And the reason was it was so real and tactical about what it truly takes to build a wildly successful business. And they give so many insights on finding the right partner, on having hard conversations, on hiring and firing team members, just really diving into the tactical. And they even shared about the book process that they're in and how they're focusing, what they're focusing on and what their day to day looks like. And I think it's quite rare to be able to have these conversations with, with really successful, really established entrepreneurs who are so willing to be honest about the realness. They have a brand new book out shoveling shit. So you can kind of guess by the title that they are not sugarcoating any of this. And it really is just such a great conversation. It's one that I'm going to listen to again because I pulled so much from it. So with that, let's dive into the episode. I know you're really going to love it. Mike and Cass, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited that you're here.
- [01:26]
Mike Lazarow
Thanks for having us.
- [01:27]
Cas Lazarow
Thank you so much. Big fans and can't wait to get started.
- [01:31]
Natalie Ellis
So I have to ask, I ask everyone this who comes to the podcast on a book tour. Where's, where's the energy at right now? How are you guys feeling?
- [01:39]
Mike Lazarow
I think we're tired. But, but we know this grind. We're serial entrepreneurs and this has kind of given us a different purpose, which is awesome. To help as many entrepreneurs as possible. So energy is still there.
- [01:52]
Natalie Ellis
I love hearing that. So, so diving into the serial entrepreneur piece, you don't say that lightly. I mean, when I was prepping for this episode, I was going down so many rabbit holes of the things that you guys do together, which is absolutely phenomenal. And I just have to ask because I just don't think me and my husband can do it. How do you work together so successfully?
- [02:12]
Mike Lazarow
Well, I think, I think Mike would say that we don't really work together. The hardest parts for us have been when we parent together and when we wrote the book, because we're very different. He does all the vision, product, fundra, investor, taking care of the board, you name it. And I'm more of the operator. So I do everything that's people related, teams, customer success, marketing, pr, you name it.
- [02:37]
Natalie Ellis
Hr, I love that. And the distinct roles, whenever I speak to co founders that are doing it really well, it feels like that's the thing they really echo in on. And I wanted to ask you this because I know I got a copy of your book early, which, by the way, I'm obsessed, obsessed with. It's so good, it's so real. And I wish I had it a decade ago because it would have saved me many headaches. But in one chapter you talk specifically about business partners and choosing the right partner. And I have had business partners. I have a business partner. It's been part of my journey, some successful, some not. And I would have loved to have these conversations before I even knew what I was getting into with business partnerships. So can we start there and kind of talk about what you guys feel like are the golden rules for of building a really good partnership?
- [03:26]
Cas Lazarow
Sure, I'll take that. I got very lucky. I met Cas when I was very young. And not only did I think she was beautiful and smart, but she's the best operator I know and I'm the worst operator you know, and I'm a visionary. I can sell. I wasn't self aware for many years. After 30 years with Cass, I've become much more self aware in all the best ways. And that difference between us is really what we love about co founder relationships. You need a partner who you have the same foundation of values, trust, how hard you're going to work, vision for the company, but your actual skill sets have to be very different. So if you're both programmers, it's going to be very hard to get on the same page about what tech to use, how to build it, just because you'll have so many ideas. Cas and I stay in our lanes and we think all co founders should. So typically you have someone who's more technical or operational and then someone who's more of the visionary and more external. And that's what I've always been. I also have gotten this wrong. I've started one business with a friend and I lost a friendship over it. And it was a painful experience. And it was an experience that, you know, shouldn't have reminded me of how special the co founder relationship is with Cass. But what I have with Cass just wasn't there. And that was your mutual respect. The idea that if I say I'm going to do something, I do it. That wasn't happening and we just had a different vision for the business. So the business is still around, but I had to step back and it was a really painful experience because it's very easy to pivot a company. So business models. It's very hard to pivot a co founder. It's very hard to change a co founder. And so we think it's worth having the hard conversations before you start. Otherwise you land in a pool of mud like I did.
- [05:09]
Natalie Ellis
Well, here's where I've messed up. The avoidance of hard conversations, especially in the early days when you don't really know what a hard conversation should look like. You know, I started one of my first companies early twenties and I co founded with a friend and we didn't really know what questions we should be asking or what the conversation looked like. So what do you think some of those initial questions should be when you're getting into business with someone?
- [05:33]
Mike Lazarow
I think the first question should be obviously after you figured out your strengths, right? Each of your strengths and the lanes. The first question should be about how hard do you want to work? Because you both should be making sure that you guys are going to put everything you have into this. We see a lot of founders or a lot of companies and mo, you know, I would say most, 99% of the time, we're not investing in them because there's a difference, right? There's this huge difference in gap between how excited, passionate, and you can tell this person's always on with the company and the other one's kind of sitting back. So that's the first thing. And that kind of goes to work ethic, right? And then why are you doing this? So what if someone really wants to make an impact and solve a problem and the other one really is in it for, you know, making the most money they can? It doesn't mean that that's bad. But you need to know that about each other because it also teaches you data points about how you know what motivates the person. And you know, sometimes you'll, you'll hear things that you didn't know and that's a good reason to just say, no, this is not a good partnership. But those are the two big ones that we do. Mike, do you have another one?
- [06:37]
Cas Lazarow
Yeah, one of the biggest ones that I, you know, it hit me the other day and it's, we write about it in the book. Working with two co founders and I met with them separately just to understand what was going on. And their vision for the business was completely different. One of them wanted to create a business that was very profitable, didn't raise any money, and just grew slowly. The other, you know, was interested in raising $30 million to surge the business and had to me to talk about that fundraise because we know a lot of investors and one of the things we do when we invest in any company is we take responsibility for making intros to the next investor. Right the next round. And I said, I'm not making another intro or having another conversation until you're on the same page with the co founder. And that opened up a whole host of discussions that the truth came out. They hadn't talked in a week. They weren't on the same page. One was working much harder than the other, and most importantly, where they wanted to take the business wasn't on the same page. And so it's just going to be a very painful relationship if you're not over communicating and getting on the same page and having that dance of those conversations.
- [07:44]
Natalie Ellis
On that lens of communication, what do you think about equity splits and valuing the work that each person is bringing to the table? You know, for me, when I first got into business, I just assumed, well, everything's 50, 50. I didn't really think to dig into all those different things and ask those, those hard questions and have those conversations, which it sounds like you're saying there was probably resentments building up. I know I've seen that a lot with co founders I've talked to. How do you think about that kind of thing?
- [08:13]
Mike Lazarow
I have a very specific way I'd answer this, Mike, you probably will have a different lens on this, but I think if you've had the right conversation. So like, for me, I'm always looking at, like, if we're going to invest in a team, I'm looking at do they have separate skill sets, right, so that they're never going to be paralyzed with decision making or micromanagement and do they know what they don't know? So I think, think, you know, that's, that's really a big thing for me to see that they know what they don't know and they're willing to go outside of that. So then when it comes to having the difficult conversations of like, okay, how hard are you working? Why are you doing this? What's our vision? And you're kind of working that all out, then I think it is going to be 50, 50, you know, if you have two founders, I think you got to split it down, but you've got to have those conversations first. And not everyone is going to be working at the same intensity level the entire journey of a company, but you have to have the intensity level be the same about what you want to happen in the company.
- [09:10]
Natalie Ellis
And. Oh, sorry, Mike, were you going to say something?
- [09:12]
Cas Lazarow
No. It's really well said. And we used to show up to investors and we'd sit down to pitch. I'd be like, wait, are you brother, sister? Are you married? And we'd say, we're married. And a lot of them would say, we don't invest in kind of couples. And we would turn around and walk out, oftentimes not even saying goodbye because we're not going to change. Or if we said anything, it'd be like, unless you change your policies, we're not planning to get divorced. And we've come to realize that people who start businesses with people they love, so spouses, brothers, sisters, parents, it's actually a superpower. And it hit me today. We spoke at an event and, you know, met the founder of Van Leeuwen, the ice cream company who we love. It was in our neighborhood on the Upper west side. We saw them build their business. I remember when, you know, they bought a truck off of eBay for $2,500, and it was two brothers who started it and another founder. And when you have history of being able to fight and then go to sleep without being resentful and having love that will never be broken, no matter how hard the conversation. I find that much better than what I had in the business that didn't work out Shape matrix where I was walking on eggshells. And so having someone like Cas who is aggressive, meaning she's not passive aggressive, I know where I stand. And I've gotten better at communicating my feelings and what I need. And that takes time, takes a lot of shoveling shit together.
- [10:32]
Natalie Ellis
I could not agree more with that. And I mean, for me, it's even extended to working with family. I work with family. In fact, my longest employees, my cousin. We've worked together in every business. And so many people have said, isn't that a mistake hiring family? And for us, we're just very honest with each other. We know exactly where we stand, and we can be really, really honest with each other. And there's a lot of family that I would never dream of working with. But I think you, you can make that, that decision and have that discernment. And I actually think it can be amazing.
- [11:06]
Cas Lazarow
And do you think part of that is, you know, how you were brought up and where you came from. And kind of like family. You had to have been a big part, you know, coming from a smaller town and kind of going, setting out on your own.
- [11:17]
Natalie Ellis
Probably. Yeah. I mean, she was my older cousin, someone that I just always looked up to. We just had a really close relationship. And I think we also fought a lot. We were cousins. We were both girls. We fought a lot. And by the time we decided to work together, it was like. Like you said, we kind of learned how to fight. We learned what was important to each other. We learned. We learned a lot about each them. What's also really interesting is we can trust each other implicitly.
- [11:41]
Mike Lazarow
I was gonna say there's implicit trust.
- [11:43]
Natalie Ellis
I mean, we.
- [11:44]
Mike Lazarow
We met identical twin, like one of the identical twin brothers who's running a company, and his twin actually was in India. And he just said that there's nothing better than knowing someone so well and trusting them when you work with them.
- [11:58]
Natalie Ellis
I really, really agree with that. There's just something about that trust that is like, I've got you, you've got me. We can make it through. Whatever. There's going to be lots of that comes your way. Like, we can make it through.
- [12:08]
Mike Lazarow
Exactly.
- [12:09]
Natalie Ellis
So speaking of working hard and those things, another thing that you guys talk about, which Cass, we kind of talked about in our last conversation, you guys named it in the chapter as the Imbalanced Life. And I know you built your businesses while also raising a family.
- [12:23]
Mike Lazarow
Yes.
- [12:24]
Natalie Ellis
How did that look? And how has that looked for you? I'm in the thick of that right now, and it is not for the faint of heart.
- [12:31]
Mike Lazarow
I think you're totally right. So let's see. We started all of our companies right around the births of our three children, which is kind of crazy when you think about it. But I don't think I'd change anything if we had a chance to go back, because I really. I said this to another entrepreneur today, that and she was, like, struggling with whether she should have kids now or wait, like five or six years to see how the company does. And I said to her, if you don't want to miss out on kids, have them as early as you can because you don't know how long it's going to take to get pregnant. And there never be a great time. The truth from our side is when they're younger, there are. And I'm talking like, you know, five, six years and under. There's a lot of people who can be in your community, in your village that can love them and do what you would do at Their, their age when they get older. I really think that's when you need to think about how many hours away you, you know, you are from them because it's your values that you need to lead by example with. We kind of made that bet when they were little that if we could afford a babysitter, get some family in every now and then, that we would work really hard and prioritize the work so that we could get back to them when they were older. But there is no balance. And I don't care if you're an entrepreneur or if you're working a 9 to 5 job, there is no balance. Right. You only can do one thing well at a time.
- [13:51]
Natalie Ellis
I really like that perspective and it's so helpful for me too, hearing because I have a toddler baby on the way and I've heard people say that a lot of it is very different when they start getting a little bit older and their needs towards you actually do really shift. And so for you guys, how I love the word harmony because I really do think like every season is so different and it just requires such different things from you. Like, I don't know what it is, but every time I'm pregnant, I'm like, I have so much energy. I'm like running full force, then I'm gonna slow down a little bit and then I'm gonna go back at it. Like, I kind of run with the, the season and the energy that I'm given. Is that the way that you guys have thought about it? Have you really built with that in mind?
- [14:34]
Cas Lazarow
Yeah. I mean, what's interesting is that entrepreneurs, when they're at their best, feel like they found their purpose and from there becomes, you get your passion, you get your energy, and it's from everything starts there. And there are other people who get it from their kids or get it from giving away or church or temple or whatever it is. But the entrepreneurs that we do speak to him, definitely for us it was all about kind of the reason we got up in the morning was because of work. It was our love language. We love entrepreneurs. We love growth at growing the businesses. And then we have these kids who come along and you just have to be very honest and they're trade offs. And Cass talks about this a lot. It's much harder on moms. It's harder to turn off, you know, for Cass to turn off her brain. It's harder for Cass to not get through her to do list. At the end of the day, it's relatively easy for me and I Think a lot of guys to just like, compartmentalize. And what we realize is that that passion that we bring to work, we just have to make sure that we schedule the time and we set structure for everything else. Otherwise we get lost. And so if it's not on the calendar, it doesn't exist. We, and I speak to my friend Gary Vaynerchuk about this all the time, who has now two kids who are older. And we saw those kids born and, you know, we've seen him grow his empire as he's grown his life. And the book is they're all the cheat codes that we use to grow the business, but also to grow a life. And it' not only about kids, it's also about your spouse. It's about relationships that matter. So I had Saturday mornings. Cass would sleep, I would take the kids. We'd go get pancakes. We'd go somewhere in the city. We live in New York City. We'd have fun. I loved it. And Wednesday. And so that was like how I filled my cup with kids when they were young. That's what I could give them. I couldn't give them every day. Right. If I was lucky, I got half an hour before they went to bed at 8pm Cass and I had a date night every Wednesday and Sunday night, Saturday night, which we recommend to all entrepreneurs. You're going to be married to your work, but if you, if you don't want to be single, if you don't want to be divorced, like schedule time, it doesn't sound sexy, but it's required because you'll just sit at your desk. Right. You'll just make another call. And so it's this idea that you're never going to be more passionate about much other than the company. Right. And I see what you've done. And the reason why you have so much energy is you found your purpose like you are living your life. If you weren't, you wouldn't feel that. You'd feel tired, you wouldn't be able to get out of bed and schedule. The stuff's important so you don't lose it.
- [16:56]
Natalie Ellis
I love that. You know something me and my husband have started doing, which has been a game changer. We have our date night and we've started doing a weekly family meeting on a Friday so that date nights don't become about the family meeting.
- [17:08]
Mike Lazarow
Right, Right.
- [17:10]
Natalie Ellis
It's been a game changer because both entrepreneurs, both incredibly busy, we can turn date nights very much into like, calendar checking and scheduling and like, tell me what's going on for you. So we started doing the Friday morning family meeting. And so date night's actually like, real connection. And it's been a game changer. I'm like, why didn't I start doing this five years ago?
- [17:31]
Mike Lazarow
And trust me, trips, right? So, you know, when we could actually afford it, we would get away for a night or two nights. I think that was really important. But the other part is, as a mom, there's going to be no, like, bigger guilt than you're not doing everything you write or as you're not enough as a mom to the kids or whatever. And you have to realize that they will be okay. I am a mom. An example of looking at three kids that we have raised, and they're great human beings beings. And we did the best we could, and we didn't have a hundred percent focus on them. You know, for many differently. You called it seasons for many different seasons.
- [18:09]
Natalie Ellis
So good hearing that too. I always love talking to entrepreneurs who are also parents of kids that are a little bit older to be able to have that perspective. Because sometimes when you're in the thick of it, you're like, am I doing a good job at anything? You just don't know. So I really, really love that. Are there other things that the two of you have done to be able to really prioritize the. The strength of your marriage alongside working together and raising kids and all the other demands of being together?
- [18:35]
Mike Lazarow
Well, I think one of the things is we are very into health, and I think having some shared interests outside of work has really been helpful. Now, I also think, and Mike will probably agree with this, to strengthen your marriage, you have to have your own interests. It can't be against each other. It's gotta be like, okay, Mike has his stuff, I have my stuff, and then we have our stuff. And for us, when you work with your spouse, you can't always have the together stuff be about work. We have, you know, we pickleball. We have golf when I'm playing it, because it sometimes takes too long. Yes, Mike, that's the truth. And we, you know, we work out together. And so I think we have a lot that we share, obviously, outside of kids, family, homes, and work, and that's important.
- [19:22]
Natalie Ellis
I think I could definitely do a better job of the hobbies part. So I'm going to put.
- [19:25]
Mike Lazarow
It's hard. It's hard when you're. Let me. Let me make sure I. I don't. I don't have hobbies like, Mike has hobbies and passions. I want to make sure. Everybody hears me, that I am a mom and I have an operator's mind and people who are like me that are all about to dos and, and they kind of execute ideas, they're not going to have a lot of hobbies. They're going to have things they like to do, such as me sitting in silence with my dogs. And that could be, you know, like, silence is my favorite music that, you know. Whereas Mike, if you said, like, what's a hobby would be like playing the drums and what's your passion going to fish shows? Like, I don't have those things.
- [20:02]
Natalie Ellis
That's a really good distinction, actually, because I do think men and women are really different in that way. So I think that's a really, really good distinction. And also, my husband just finds it a lot easier to. To leave the house when he's not working to do things. And I'm like, but the kids and.
- [20:16]
Mike Lazarow
Oh, yeah, yeah. I. You know, you always hear the story of the husband leaves the house for a trip and just walks out the door. We, we are getting ready for three weeks before we would ever leave on a trip. Trip.
- [20:28]
Natalie Ellis
I know. And you're leave the door and you're still texting. What about thinking about this? Have I done this? There's all the things. There's so many things. There's something else that I want to talk to you about too, which was in your book. That again, I feel like I learned a little bit too late, but I'm really glad that I've learned this lesson. And it's something that I, I feel like every three months I have to keep reminding myself this, but you talk about hyper focus, and I feel like it's still something. Every three months I'm like, natalie, focus, focus. Bring it in. Yes, ideas are great, but really bring it in. How are you hyper focusing on what is really, really working? And I'm just curious for you guys how you think about focus and how you think about. As visionaries and entrepreneurs. We have a lot of ideas and that can be really fun and it can be really energizing. But we also know that the best results are going to come from when you double down and you're really optimizing. And so how have you thought about that in all of the companies that you've been building?
- [21:23]
Cas Lazarow
So I'll take that because I struggle with it the Most. I mean, Cas is hyper focused and as kind of the visionary and salesperson and person who makes things happen just from a business like revenue perspective, I'm constantly Talking to people, bouncing off people. And it took me a good 10 years to figure out how to focus. And what I realized is that we together can do anything we want. We can't do everything. And we learned from Marc Benioff after we sold Buddy Media to Salesforce, a system called the V2 mom, which he has started. You know, he started when he launched the company, which is vision, values, methods, obstacles, metrics. And it doesn't matter what you use, but it forces you to write down, what kind of company do you want to be? What's your vision? What are some of the things that are important to you, those values, and then most importantly, like, what are the five things you have to do to achieve the vision? So if your vision is to be a top 10 podcast or launch a, you know, number one Netflix show, or launch a, you know, Number one carbon capture company, you then have to figure out, okay, for me to do that, what do I need to hyper focus on? On as a software company at Buddy Media, we had to build the software right before we could sell it. So that was number one until we got customers, then selling was number one. And then our customers started leaving. So we had to kind of figure out this customer success and support function. And so it's a constantly changing. But at any given time, everyone in your organization needs to know where you're going and what you have to do to get there. If you don't, you're all paddling in different directions and you don't get anywhere. And I spent a lot of days in my career not focused and just wasting time. And I regret those days. Some of it hopefully ended up with kind of some business models or something that benefited us. But when we go all in, we write a V2 mom and we're. We're going. This book, we basically are not doing a lot, but what we're doing is a lot of speaking. We're doing podcasts, we're asking friends for bulk orders. And those three things we think will propel the book to a success. Because we wanted it, we want it to be a bestseller. Why write a book if no one reads it right? And so everything we do, we sit down and we're like, hey, what do we need to do to win? And every time we don't do that, we end up in this murky middle and we're confused.
- [23:35]
Natalie Ellis
And how are you balancing that, let's say, with the book alongside all the other things that I'm sure you do have going on, other responsibilities or things coming at you? How Are you thinking about, okay, my time needs to go here, so that's how I'm gonna do it.
- [23:49]
Cas Lazarow
It's hard. I mean, Cass has a lot of stuff on her plate for our companies. You know, we have a hundred investments, and if anyone needs help with reorgs or layoffs or anything that's HR and ops related, if anyone needs help with fundraising or comes to me. Last week we had tons of stuff for the book, but we also had four board meetings. I had to do Thursday and Friday. Right. So that's our day job. We're fiduciaries of other people's capital. We also bought businesses, so we own businesses. And the CEOs and COOs who are running those businesses are our customers, not the other way around. Like when they ask me for something, yes, sir, yes, ma' am, whatever you need, like, we're here to work for you. And so we only have 24 hours in the day. We haven't been sleeping a lot. You know, it was a very big decision to decide to greenlight a project like a book. It takes so much time to write it, but most importantly, it takes time to like, promote it and get it out there. And it's so personal that it's a really exciting project for us. But we didn't exactly. We weren't sitting around with a lot of time. And so I think some things have struggled. We haven't seen a lot of our friends as much as we have wanted. We were just with some friends Memorial Day weekend. They're like, where have you been? We're like, well, you'll see. We're about to launch the book and we've just been working hard. And so any entrepreneur out there, it doesn't matter what you use, but get hyper, hyper focused and really focus in on the two or three things. Because saying I'm focused on these 10 things as an entrepreneur means you're focused on none of them.
- [25:18]
Natalie Ellis
I really appreciate that honesty too, because I feel like a lot of people aren't fully honest about what it really is takes. But when you're saying we're not sleeping a lot, we are doing a lot, we are giving it everything we've got. I think people need to be honest about because this is essentially like a law, it's a launch, and it's the same whether you're launching a business, whatever you are all in. In our community, we talk a lot about freedom based businesses. So a lot of women in our community, they're not raising money, they're building businesses around their lives. But I always say don't get that confused with lack of hustle or lack of hard work or the need to put hours in because that's, that's going to be something that happens in every single. If you want it to be a success. There's really, I don't think any way around that. And there's ways in which you can build it so it can support your life if that's a goal. But there's no way around.
- [26:05]
Mike Lazarow
That's right.
- [26:06]
Natalie Ellis
Time it takes.
- [26:07]
Mike Lazarow
Yeah, we had an event last night and we got back around 10 and I quickly changed and then sat down at the computer and went to bed at two just to make sure I got everything I needed to get done. And you're right. It's all about hard work and replacement steps. Right? It's, there's no shortcuts when you are an entrepreneur. I think our cheat codes in our book will help you not step in it and not make the same mistakes we did. But at the end of the day, it is the work that you're putting in that's, that's what equates to any success that you will have.
- [26:39]
Natalie Ellis
I could not agree more. Another thing that I wanted to talk to you guys about because you obviously, you've said you're an investor in a hundred companies, you've seen a lot. From growing your own companies to being part of many, many companies, you've seen a lot. And I'm curious for companies that are in like, they've made, they're probably averaging a few million a year and they really want to take it to the next level. Have you seen that? There's a pretty standard playbook. Like you come into that company, there's ways in which you coach those CEOs to start really growing.
- [27:08]
Cas Lazarow
So we do and you know, we basically, we believe that every company has levers. And your job, your job when you start a startup is to not be a startup startup, right? Your job is to go from like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't product market fit to like, oh, I know what I'm doing now if you're a pizzeria, if you're cutting hair, it's a little easier, but you can understand what drives the business. We own a healthcare staffing business and our recruiters are really our clients. Meaning like we need to onboard more recruiters. And the more recruiters we have, the bigger the company grows. And it's been around for 25 years, very profitable. And we're really making that concerted effort. And we just know that the lever for that business is, is recruiters. Others it may be customers, others it may be partners or channels. If you're selling through, like, the supplement business that you've experienced and like, you know, that's a totally different series of levers. And once you understand them, I think it's important to realize that there's only so much you can do today. So think about doing what you need to do to kind of push those buttons and kind of pull those levers to grow, but do it over years, decades, and even, like, that's how big businesses are built. It's not about kind of being patient and not work and not working. It's about doing the right things every day. So when you look back in the year, you're like, wow, I got a lot done. Any given week, you're not going to be able to look back and said, like, you did that much right? Any quarter, you're not going to do a lot. But if you do the right things every year for several years, like, do that for five years, you're going to wake up with a hundred, an audience of 100 million people. If you're in the pipeline podcast business, you're going to wake up with a hundred customers from zero if you're an accountant. And so just continue doing the right things every day and letting the value of time compound to create returns for you. What I don't like when I see on resumes, entrepreneurs who launch something and then ditch it, and launch something and ditch it. It may not go your way, but figure out what is going to drive the business and just stay at it. Winners never quit, quitters never win. Like, you've got to keep going. Every time you restart, you're starting at zero, basically.
- [29:17]
Natalie Ellis
And how can someone be thinking about identifying those levers and making sure that they're really knowing what moves the needle and what things they can do now that five years from now will be making a difference. They're not hitting stagnation.
- [29:33]
Cas Lazarow
Cas, do you want to take that or should I continue?
- [29:35]
Mike Lazarow
I mean, you can continue. And I'll add, I have a thought, but it's not quite on that, but keep going.
- [29:39]
Cas Lazarow
Yes. So we are fundamentalists. We believe that businesses are systems. We believe that the inputs drive the outcomes. What you focus on your priorities determine what happens in the business. And a lot of companies end up focused on the wrong things. For instance, the biggest mistake in software companies is you focus just on sales and you get a ton of sales. Sales and then all of a sudden, you're selling, but you're losing customers. So you're swimming against the grain. And no one focuses on customer success, Right? It's always new logos, new logos. Any business, any service business, it's easy to file their taxes on April 15th if you're an accountant. But how are you building that relationship to make sure that they come back next year? And so it's not just about getting new clients and new customers. And so when I look at any business, we break it down into unit economics. We just break it down to the most minimum. Like, what's the minimum unit? So for liquid death at a water company, it's a can, right? Where do we put the water in the can? How do we get it to the distributor, who gets it to the retailer? And simpler businesses, it's usually really easy. Okay, pizzeria, you need more customers. Like, are you doing free lunches for businesses within, you know, five blocks of your pizzeria? Like, if you can get them to try your pizza and start that habit, that's a way to kind of get more customers. So don't overthink that it. Simpler is better. I'm a journalism major. I was never trained on business. If it doesn't work on the back of an envelope, it's never going to work in real life.
- [31:08]
Mike Lazarow
I'd also say that some of the levers that I try to pull with our companies after they've been around a couple years is really doing a deep dive on team, like, who are the players and do you need them, and are they the right people for that role? Like, we used to say this all the time. Every time we would do a fundraiser race, I'd lay off a bunch of people, and people would always be, like, so surprised. But it was a way for me to reorganize and make sure that our mission was still being met with the right people in the right spot. So I was moneyballing everybody. But I think a lot of waste happens when you get a little bit bigger and fatter. And you think, okay, this is how, like, a perfect example is. This is how many people need to service an account or be on customer service or whatever it is. You've got to start looking at your teams and your managers. Do you need managers or do you need doers? And really thinking about how you've organized.
- [32:08]
Natalie Ellis
Across what are some of the biggest mistakes you see? And I know you talk about this in the book, but with hiring and leading teams.
- [32:15]
Mike Lazarow
So I think with hiring, first and foremost, people don't do enough, especially as entrepreneurs, they don't do enough thinking before they go to start to hire for the role. And I know that every single entrepreneur knows that they have to move fast and they've got to get the right hire and all that. But you really have to figure out what you're hiring for. Otherwise you're going to go to like a hardware store for lemonade. Doesn't make any sense. Right? You really have to have that defined. And I'm not just saying at a job description level. That's table stakes. After the job description, have you done the second, third, fourth layer of where the company goes in two years or who comes over or who's managing this, this person you're about to hire? Where eventually is their career path? Path? We always had an org chart. We were four people, we had an org chart and I had current state, future state, like way off in the future state. And it gave people comfort and it wasn't about like who they were, but it was in a really kind of big department focus, right? And you have to know that before you hire. The second part is you need to be creative with your questions so that you are able to match the culture that you want. Basically the cult. What culture is, is a reflection of a time in your life life that you felt really good in a team environment. It could be a club you joined, it could be obviously a team that you were on or a family trip and there was some kind of cohesiveness that you enjoyed and you're now trying to recreate that. The only way you're going to get there is not from standard questions. You have to obviously be by the law on what you can ask. But you are trying to get them to answer questions so that you can figure out if the culture is affected fit. Because if it's not, if they are not a fit with culture, they will become your worst enemy very quickly down the road, even if they're the. A great employee.
- [34:05]
Natalie Ellis
And what about firing? Because again, I'm still learning this lesson, but I always fire way too slow.
- [34:12]
Mike Lazarow
So I mean, look, not everyone agrees with me, but we always hired fast and fired more quickly, right? Or we said faster. It's not easy. But if you can learn the first line and get it out, which is today. I have some unfortunate news. Today is your last day and you can lead with that and then remember that your job as a, as a manager or a leader or even the founder is to be empathetic and kind. And if you want to be the best person out there so that you actually have people still rooting for you, even if you fired them, then tell them where they messed up and how you would have hoped they missed the.
- [34:48]
Natalie Ellis
Missed it.
- [34:49]
Mike Lazarow
Right. Or fixed it. And so I, we, we took it very seriously. Everybody had. We had such great care and bringing people in, but we had the same amount of care when they went out.
- [34:58]
Natalie Ellis
That is so helpful just hearing you give the script. And I know your book is filled with a lot of those really tactical things, but it's things like that they don't teach you in business school, they don't teach you how to have those conversations. And it's only through speaking to other entrepreneurs or doing it wrong. But you start to learn that. So I have to ask, do you also have a script for. And this is me trying to get coaching. When you are giving your employees some feedback on performance not being great, do you have a way you handle that?
- [35:29]
Mike Lazarow
Yes. Well, first of all, the first thing you have to do is make sure that you have a format for giving feedback. This can't be kind of off the cuff, disorganized. You want to make sure that an employee feels that they're going to have an opportunity to talk through some of this. So we always had yearly reviews. Again, four people didn't matter, and we had reviews of ourselves. You have to make sure that that's happening because otherwise employees feel on edge. Now, if something's happening that you want them to stop, let's just say wrong interactions with a client or something like that, yes, you can immediately stop it. But you should also make a note, write a folder with someone's name on it so you remember these conversations and remember it. The best way to approach it is to say, listen, I. And I'll give you this example in a meeting. I know how hard you are working. I see it, and I'm really appreciative it. What the client needs and what our company needs to give the client is the following. And how you're coming across is not meeting that, so you're acknowledging their hard work. The hardest thing about being in difficult conversations is the first line. It's like when actors learn, they just need the first line to help them remember what they're going to say. So if you can get the first line out. And I always lead with. I mean, this is pretty obvious, but you always leave with the good so that they can remember that you're on their side, that you are not doing this to be punitive. You are not doing this to hope that they fail or to be critical of them. It's where you need them to be. So you have to deliver this in an aspirational way. I know you can do this. Here's the behavior where I think you should change.
- [37:05]
Cas Lazarow
There's also, you know, this concept that I've learned, learned slowly, of getting the elephant in the room and acknowledging kind of the emotions and the feelings of the other person even before you start. So, you know, Natalie, this is not going to be a fun conversation. This is not a conversation that I want to have with you on your podcast. It's not why I was here, but I think it's good for you to hear this and for the organization to move forward. I really hope you listen to what I'm about to say, because this is going to be something that helps us, but it's going to help you moving forward. Forward. How you are handling your communication with your team is creating an environment where people want to leave, and that's not. Or whatever it is, right? So it's basically. And I learned this from Cass because I would basically try to sell stuff to her. I'd be like, hey, Fish is playing Vegas for Halloween. Like, it looks like we're free. And like, you're going to be doing all this stuff. So, you know, it's cool if I go versus when the kids were young. Cass, you're not going to like what I'm about to say. And I know it's going to create. Create some issues and more work for you at home, but it's really important for me to be able to go blow off the stink with my friends and do it. Unless there's something that's, like, really holding back. You know, I'd really like to do this right. So it's kind of how you communicate by taking the other person's, like, how your behavior or how this is going to land on the other person, I think helps a lot, and it's something that I struggle with, with so much and I still struggle with. But that first line, you know, like, when you lay someone off, like Cass always says, like, today is your last day at the company. She doesn't bury the lead, right. And then give the feedback. So it's, you know, that first line is important.
- [38:44]
Mike Lazarow
I just really think that all founders need to realize the following. People take great care in hiring the right people, but why don't they take great care when they let them go? Now, granted, there are some really horrible behaviors that happen in companies, and those obviously should be done in a very tight legal way. But don't you owe it to them to, like, tell them how they can be better? Otherwise you're just passing on the same challenges to someone else, right? Some other company.
- [39:12]
Natalie Ellis
This is such gold. Like, I know people listening right now are just eating this up because I think this kind of tactical coaching is really hard to come by of, like, the specific wording or the framing. And I really, the both of those scripts. And Mike, also what you said about I used to try and sell. Sell this, and I think that's the entrepreneur's way. It's like, oh, I'll just enroll them in my excitement. And it's like, well, that's probably not gonna work this time. And I can think about that, my personal life and my professional life. So I. I really love that. And I also have to ask, because you mentioned doing things in a legal way. What I love about the book is just how real it is. Like, you're really not sugarcoating a lot of this, and I think that's really important with entrepreneurship is not sugarcoating it. And what I've been trying to do with my content lately too, is bring people a little bit behind the scenes of, like, you see the fun stuff, you see the content, but behind the scenes, there's also some not fun stuff that goes on. One of the least fun things for me personally that I deal with is the legal stuff. And I've had to get really good at that, and I'm getting better at it. But one thing that I know trips me up, but also trips just a lot of founders up is legal stuff and the fear of messing something up, or someone comes at you with a cease and desist, or someone comes at you with a demand, and the fear can come up and you can react from a place of fear versus actually stepping back, looking at your options, and really protecting yourself and protecting your business. So how do you think about that and how has your perspective on that stuff changed as you've gained more experience?
- [40:44]
Mike Lazarow
Well, I came from a family of lawyers, so I probably, yeah, I probably didn't have as much fear as most people as most founders do do. So I, I think that helped me a little bit. But I'm also, Natalie, I'm also a rule follower until I don't, you know, until I can get a little wiggle room. But for the most part, I think what we've done really well, and I think we learned a lot from Golf.com and then going into buddy media, is that the more organized you can get with all of the legal Contracts and documents from the very beginning, the better off you are because you have the structure. I know a lot of people are like, oh, I don't want to spend all this money on, you know, an attorney on that stuff. A lot of the documents right now. And there's so many different companies that you know, like the AI attorney documents companies out there, Mike knows them all. Like, you don't have to spend a ton, but you should spend to get them right. And that's where founders fall short. A lot of the time when things get thrown at you, such as a lawsuit or like you said, like IP infringement or something like that, take it seriously, but step back like you said. But you need to be able to deal with these things because this happens in business all of the time. The number one thing we see happening that's that it's a painful process, but it's fixable is if you've picked a name that somebody else is using. That happens all the time. It's happened so much with all of our different founders. So you are right. You've just got to kind of take it head on and you've got to get your fear out of the way.
- [42:12]
Natalie Ellis
Yeah, I mean, I definitely learned that the hard way. Naming my company boss babe. Not going to say much more about that. But there was a big company came after us with that and we thought, thought there's no way we can take this on. There's no way we can stand up for ourselves and protect ourselves. And I think you can actually really surprise yourself when you have done the pre work and you have buttoned yourself up legally and you have made sure you've got your ducks in a row, you probably are better placed to stand up for yourself than you think you are. And I think I'm learning that as time goes on. And one thing that I'm. That I'm trying to learn, which is a practice of mine, is like not letting those things keep you up at night. Like really being able to. Able to set that to the side and know. Do you know what? No. No matter what comes my way, I know I can deal with it. And not letting it spiral you. Have you mastered that yet?
- [42:58]
Cas Lazarow
I think we're pretty good at not letting things. You're not letting fear get in the way. And I think this topic's an important one because there's so much fear and so much like anxiety that people want to just ignore it. Right. And we hear it all the time, which is like, oh, the lawyer is just slowing us down. Right. In reality, Bad legal, or at least like ignoring it is going to slow you down much more later, right. Than, well, we'll fix it later. Well, maybe it might be expensive, might be impossible, right? Or we're too early for that. You're never too early to avoid like some of these issues with like co founder fallouts or like messy IP issues or, you know, legal is kind of just like the rain on a rainy day or gravity. It just exists, right? Like you can respect it or you could like just ignore it and hope it goes away, but it just never goes away. Eventually you're going to fall to the ground or you're going to get wet if it's raining out, right? So, you know, it's a, it's a necessary evil. I look forward to the day where just AI handles everything, which is happening for bigger companies. So Harvey, AI and some others, we haven't seen it work for smaller companies as well because legal is kind of a business tool. But you know, look at legal as a, you know, play off offense, not defense. And I'm not saying sue people, but get ahead of issues so you avoid stuff. I've only been sued once. I'm not going to talk about it because she's a huge famous actress. But I have, you know, we've just done the right thing and we've tried to stay ahead so it doesn't end up in legal issues.
- [44:30]
Mike Lazarow
I mean, I would also tell you, Natalie, and most people thought I was crazy, including our board. But at our last company, one of the first 1518 hires was, was a general counsel because I knew that we were moving at such high speed that if we didn't have someone who could literally herd us in, especially all these amazing salespeople and make sure the contracts were tight, the negotiated terms were better for us, then it was going to be super messy and not repeatable. Right. We wouldn't be able to have repeatable revenue.
- [45:01]
Natalie Ellis
I love that we're having this conversation because it is kind of like the unit sexy stuff that behind the scenes is so important. And actually that's what allows you to build a foundation, to be able to scale your business. I invest in a company that I absolutely love. They're called the Small Business Planner. So for anyone listening that's feeling really overwhelmed, they actually, they send you a binder. And this was really helpful for me coming from the uk because I learned about UK business. So I was like, what's an llc? What's a C corp? What do I need? And they send you this binder and it's a physical binder. And it tells you, here's your checklist. You have to print out your contracts, print out your incorporation documents. And it's things like that that I'm like, I wish I had this in the beginning because I was just like, in a Google Drive. I'm like, I'm sure I've got the ein somewhere. Like, you don't think about this stuff.
- [45:49]
Mike Lazarow
No, that's so. It's so right. And the more, like, I will say it again, the more art organized you can get. When we sold go to Time Warner, Mike and I had moved from Chicago to D.C. and like four weeks after that, I had our second son. And it took, I think a couple years when we were there, and then we sold it. But we had documents in Chicago in some, like, folder that was in some storage unit. And we had, I mean, easier now because it's everything digital, but oh, my gosh.
- [46:19]
Cas Lazarow
But we still get it wrong. Like, you know, we bought a company and I'm not going to talk too much about it, but we realized we never had. We never incorporated the llc like for the new entity. And, you know, we're now looking at potentially selling it and we're going to have to clean it up and it's going to cost so much more to try to clean it up. And so it happens. Stay ahead of that. And it really gets to, like, all these uncomfortable things. Like, every entrepreneur loves doing one or two things right. You may love to code or sell or create content. And then you have all this other stuff which we call like this pebbles in the sand. They aren't big rock priorities, but kind of need to file your tax return. You kind of need to do these things and don't get behind on those because any procrastination, any time you're going to save today is going to be such a headache. You're shooting yourself in the foot down the road.
- [47:09]
Natalie Ellis
I think I'm definitely learning that now. It's taken some mistakes to get there, but I'm definitely learning that. Like, like, yep. Having your ducks in a row really, really helps. Being organized, understanding all of that really, really helps. So bringing it back to the book, I want to know what made you decide to write this book? What made you say yes to a project like this?
- [47:26]
Mike Lazarow
I always wanted to write a book. I thought I had it in me. I kind of think in terms of, like, book titles. And so I had all these, like, book titles which actually became the chapters of the book. Like, perception is reality. Putting the cult in your Culture, culture leaders shovel first things like that. And I had all the lessons that Mike and I had been giving and still do on a daily basis to entrepreneurs who ask us for their advice or help. And we just thought this would be a great way to amplify all the messages and we could get it out once and then get it to as many entrepreneurs as possible. It's not been easy writing a book. We were in the, in the same lane for the first time, as I said earlier. So that was difficult. Difficult. Although it only did take us three months. But editing the process of like the creation of the COVID and things like that, that was much harder than I thought. And picking the right title and stuff like that.
- [48:19]
Natalie Ellis
I'm curious, as you were writing it, was there one particular lesson in there or a chapter in there where you're writing it and you're like, I wish I would take my own advice more often. Or like you really realize you've learned this because you've made that mistake too much. I know that for myself being in the book writing process, there's been parts of it that are so therapeutic because I'm like, wow, yeah, this is what I think and I probably should do this more. Like, it's just been so interesting.
- [48:46]
Cas Lazarow
Yeah, for me it was a lot of the stuff I hadn't dealt with from my childhood. You know, I have a father who was a different entrepreneur, but he was an entrepreneur and he ran into some financial issues and the financial issues caused him to do some stuff, stuff which I know he regrets, you know, including not wanting to live. And he was majorly depressed and ended up in a mental hospital for many weeks. And this happened to be a few months before my 13th birthday. So it was kind of a important time. And I never fully took stock of what he was going through and the impact of financial pressures on the entrepreneur and the shame, especially at a time when men did not have the license to go. Go seek out mental health. And for me, what was interesting is the book process. Let me come to terms with that and forgive him really, for the first time. I've been carrying this with me for 40 years almost. And none of us have overnight success, no matter what. You see on Instagram, the Lamborghini, you see that guy's living in his parents basement. It's just not real. And if they really have wealth, it took many, many, many years, years to build for us, 30 years. You know, we had little wins, but we didn't sell a business for a billion dollars until we were, you know, in our 30s. And so the process of writing the book let us learn more about ourselves, improve our life, but also we think will give impact and will create impact for people who aren't confident like we weren't. We were full of fear and doubt and uncertainty. And as we became more confident, we're like, we got this. What else can happen? We've seen everything, right? And I think that's what the book is. It's if you too can develop confidence, can get better making decisions with uncertain data in this hurricane of just bad news. If you cannot be led by fear, you too can build a business that outstrips you, that lives way beyond your life impact, that's way beyond what you're doing and build a life that is really fulfilling, however you choose to define that. And we'd love seeing our entrepreneurs that we invest in become much smarter, much wealthier than we are. And that's, it's just an awesome thing to see them succeed. And that's what the book does. Hopefully we want to look back in 20 years, be like, wow, I picked up your book, I hired better, I made the right decisions, I pivoted and without that, maybe I wouldn't have done it. Like, that's really rewarding to us.
- [51:10]
Natalie Ellis
Thank you so much for sharing that. That's really, really powerful. And it's funny, I think entrepreneurship can be the most intense ride of personal development and personal growth because it can encourage you to look, look at so many different things that you maybe haven't looked at or be that forcing function to do the work, to become more self aware. All of those things. I, I love bringing that element into it. There's one other thing you said too, which I think is really powerful, which I think you don't see in the world of Instagram and content is building wealth takes a long time. You know, I think we're all used to the 3 second scroll and seeing all of these fancy see flashy lifestyles and believing it and buying into a highlight reel and you know, we know that's not the truth and that's not what it looks like on the outside, generally isn't what it is on the inside. And from the two of you that obviously have built an incredible, incredible legacy. Really. You know, you've built a lot of wealth and you've seen a lot of things. What have you learned about money and wealth that you wish you could tell your 20 year old self?
- [52:16]
Mike Lazarow
I think if I had to do it, I never really thought money would change anything. I think it, to me it Provides just comfort or convenience. Right. I've always been afraid of not having my own money. So I think more of that has been chasing that kind of fear, that the whole money thing, it. It's strange. You have it, you don't have it, and then you do. You know, with Golf.com, everyone thinks, oh, my God, you made 25 million. No, no, we didn't. We didn't. We. We only owned, like, a sliver. Mike and I made $3 million combined before taxes. And if you take the total amount, let's just call it 1.8 million divided by two, it's 900,000 over seven years. That's not. We didn't get paid for those seven years when we were doing Golf.com because back then. So I think what I would like to tell people going forward is that you need to get your win, even if you don't have your financial gain. And that will propel you forward into whatever success you want. Want. And what I learned about money is a lot of people come out of the woodwork when you have it, and a lot of people treat you very differently when you have it. And it's not always the greatest feeling.
- [53:23]
Cas Lazarow
And I would just add that I love money. I'm a capitalist. I also didn't get into it just for the money. You know, my dad went bankrupt. I wanted to be independent. I wanted freedom. I didn't want to be chained to a desk. The money in today's society causes to do a lot of bad things. Things. And the biggest negativity that we're seeing is just to keep up with the Joneses. It used to be like, you had the people in the neighborhood, but now it's like, you know, it's, oh, I gotta, like, show that I'm, like, at this level. And it's just toxic. What money buys is freedom. It buys your time back. It buys. You know, unfortunately, with our healthcare system, healthcare is becoming a luxury product. So it buys healthcare and it buys a level of security. And you'll never see us post, you know, private planes and, you know, Lamborghinis. And it just creates such awful feelings among the people who are watching, whether it's true or not, right? Which we could post all that stuff. But why, you know, if you, you know, God wants you to be rich, if you read the. Whatever, you read the Bible, Torah, whatever, and there's a requirement to do something with the wealth to benefit others. So it's okay to make a lot of money, but are you doing anything to. To help Your community. Start there right before you go to, like, curing malaria like Bill Gates. And I think that's what we've always thought of, like, oh, it's like the best drug ever is, like, giving it away. Our efforts with Cycle for Survival to fund, like, you know, in total, we've helped raise $412 million to fund cancer research. That's cool, right? Like, that feels euphoric. And the day we cure cancer is going to be like, that's awesome. Like, we're. We're a little tiny part of this, right? And that's what we kind of get off on is, like, helping. And that's why, like, all the profits from the book are going to cycle for survival. It's why every company had a social good component to it. But, you know, money. Money will amplify your great characteristics and your awful ones.
- [55:16]
Natalie Ellis
I think the way you've put that is incredible, and I fully agree. It buys choice, and I think that's a really beautiful thing. And I think that's why I'm so passionate about talking about money to women especially is it buys choice and it buys security and independence. And I think that's incredibly important and especially for women. But what's also really interesting is I. I'm lucky enough to speak to so many really successful founders. Like, you guys on this podcast had someone on just before you, too. And I always hear the same thing, is, like, most of the time, you get into business for the freedom and the choice and the independence, and you've got that drive. And at some point, it really changes from this intrinsic, intrinsic to very extrinsic. How can I give this away? How can I make such a big impact? And I feel like those are the entrepreneurs that are really going the distance and are still, you know, when they could have retired 20 years ago, still putting out incredible work into the world because they're so motivated by ways in which they can make the world better. And I just think that's such an inspiring message for the entrepreneurs listening who are maybe in the earlier stages, who can't even fathom getting to that point. It seems to be the place where that almost all really successful entrepreneurs get to, which is just so reassuring.
- [56:29]
Cas Lazarow
I'm glad, you know, we're at, you know, make money. That's what you're supposed to do as an entrepreneur and realize that once you do, you're still the same schmuck you ever were, and you now have an added responsibility of making people's lives better.
- [56:43]
Natalie Ellis
I love that so much. Thank you both so so much for this episode. I have got so many notes written here. I was like constantly with my pen. This has been been amazing and I just really appreciate how real and tactical you both are. I think that's what I love the most about the book is it's one of the most real books that I have picked up in a really, really long time and I have recommended it. I've bought so many copies. For Friends is the best place for people to go grab copy Amazon and it's shoveling.
- [57:10]
Mike Lazarow
Yes, it's shoveling a love story about the entrepreneur's messy path to success.
- [57:15]
Natalie Ellis
I love it. I absolutely love it. It is so helpful. I think it's like a little tool kit every entrepreneur needs to have and be able to refer back to. So everyone listening. I will also include the links in the show notes. So shoveling on Amazon and where else can everyone find you?
- [57:31]
Mike Lazarow
You can find us at Cassand Mike on Instagram TikTok. You can also go to info cassandmike.com Amazing.
- [57:39]
Natalie Ellis
Thank you both so so much.
- [57:40]
Mike Lazarow
Thank you too. Thanks for having us. We appreciate you.
- [57:43]
Cas Lazarow
Thank you. Appreciate it.
- [57:50]
Natalie Ellis
Wait wait wait. Before you go, I would love to send you my 7 figure CEO operating system completely free as a gift. All you've got to do is leave us a review on this podcast because it really supports the growth of this show. This is my digital masterclass where I'll show you what my freedom based daily, weekly and monthly schedule looks like as an eight figure CEO, mama and high performer and I'll walk you through step by step how to create this for yourself. It includes a full video training from me and a plug and play spreadsheet to literally create your own operating system. It's one of our best trainings and it's worth $1,997. But I will unlock access for you for free when you leave us a review. I know, wild right? All you have to do is leave your review on the podcast, take a screenshot of it and then head over to BossBab.com com review to upload it and then you'll get instant access to the seven figure CEO operating system. Again, head over to bossbabe. Com review to upload your screenshot and get access. We are so so grateful for all of your support and can't wait to hear how the podcast has supported you.