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469: The Unlock to FINALLY Clarifying + Scaling Your Personal Brand with Rory Vaden
00:50:32
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to the Bossboy podcast. So today's episode is a must listen for any entrepreneur, expert, or creator who really wants to go from being the best kept secret to the first name that comes to mind. I am joined by someone whose work has shaped how I think about personal branding, Rory Vaden. He is a New York Times bestselling author, the co founder of Brand Builders Group, and the guy that all thought leaders call when they want to get really crystal clear on why they're known and how to monetize it. So in this episode, we really break down what sells separates real personal brands from people just posting content, as well as how to find your uniqueness and why being able to exploit it in the service of others is the key to growth. So if you've ever wondered how to make your name synonymous with the transformation that you deliver and how to scale in a way that feels aligned, I think this episode will be your playbook and Rory will be giving a free book to everyone that listens. So with that, let's dive in. Rory, I'm sorry. So excited to welcome you back to the podcast. Every time someone asks me about my personal brand, I bring it back to you. I'm like, first of all, Rory Vaden is a genius and really, really helped me solidify what it is I want to be known for. And the next question that I get from them is, but how do you pick something? How do you pick a specific thing you want to be known for if you are multi passionate or if you feel like you're doing so many different things and you're speaking to so many different people? I see people's face just drop. Like the blood drains from face when they, when the idea of having to pick one thing hits them. So I really want to start there. When you're faced with that person, where do you even start?
- [01:40]
B
Yeah, it's a. It's amazing, Natalie, because that, that's what we see too. I mean, that's why we exist, is so many people struggle to find their uniqueness as, as we. We call it. And what I have realized is this is both a discipline and it is a matter of divinity that if you go. Go through this correctly, it is the most transformational clarifying strategy you can ever have. And we're witnessing that with you and the response that people are having to like your new content and just, just so aligned. Right? So to cut straight to the chase and just like go, let's go right to the punchline, I'll give you the secret and then we can Unpack it from there. Here is what we discovered. You don't start with why, you don't start with what you, you don't start with how. You start with who. The most powerful question, the most clarifying question for a personal brand to answer is who am I serving? The moment you get clear on who you are serving, every single other downstream decision becomes clear. For example, I know exactly what, where to advertise because I know where those people hang out. I know exactly what words to use in my copy because I know what those people care about and are afraid of. I know exactly what to sell them because I know what those people need. I know exactly how to price it because I know what those people can afford. I know exactly how to staff it with my team because I know how many people are going to buy that and what that's going to require, which means I know what infrastructure and systems and technology to build that. I need to support all of that. And I know what reports to create create. Like everything becomes clear. Contrast that with someone who is unclear on their who. And you know, we serve mission driven messengers, right? So we serve people who in a way are a little bit of the bleeding heart altruistic. Like I want to change the world. Like they want to get wealthy and well known like the title of our book, right? But, but they're not trying to get rich and famous, they're trying to serve people, they're trying to serve humanity and they believe that they can. Well that person, what's working against them is they go, I want to help everybody, right? Like I want to change the world. Which you know, I don't, I don't blame them for that, that desire, I have the same desire. But if you're trying to reach everyone, you now have to advertise everywhere. The language you use has to apply to everybody. You have to price things that everybody can afford. And what, what you start to notice here is you quickly are racing towards commoditization, unspecialization, broad messages and products and monetization strategy that applies to the masses. And that game only works if you're reaching millions and millions of people or you have millions and millions of dollars in your advertising budget. So most of us are small business owners and have smaller teams which I would consider anyone with less than 100 employees a smaller team.
- [04:41]
A
Right?
- [04:41]
B
We have 50 employees at Brand Builders Group. We're an eight figure business. We're still a small business. But if you have less than that, like you have even more limited resources, time, money, talent, et Cetera. So here's the trick. Here's the secret shortcut. You go, okay, how do I get clear on my who? It's very simple. And this is so important that we actually transcribed it on the COVID So we have that. We have the book. If you open the jacket, the secret is right here. It says, you are most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. You're most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. That is the hack, the shortcut, the direct line to finding your uniqueness, to figuring out your who, which then everything else becomes clear, is you go. Your credibility doesn't come from having lots of followers. Your credibility doesn't come from a degree. Your credibility doesn't come from having a pretty website. Your credibility comes from the fact that you have personally experienced the pain, the heartbreak, the heartache, the tragedy, the sadness, the setbacks, the obstacles, and you have overcome them. And nobody can challenge your credibility if that's who you're talking to. And in a world of AI Again, information is commoditized at an exponential rate. But what you cannot replace is human experience. A robot cannot live the life that you have lived. It doesn't experience the emotions that you have experienced. And so it cannot replace someone who is operating in their uniqueness, who is literally amplifying the most powerful human advantage we have, which is emotion and story and our humanity. And so building a personal brand in the future is less about vanity and it's all about humanity. Serve the person you once were.
- [06:42]
A
This is exactly it. And I just. Let's get really real here. So when we first met, I was just coming out of such a dark period in my life. I went through a really challenging postpartum season. I went through a co founder breakup. I pretty much burned my business to the ground and rebuilt it. And then when we started talking, I was saying, rory, I don't really know what I stand for anymore. I don't know what my brand is anymore because it's changed and I need help wading through it. And that's what we did. And when I got down to who I really wanted to serve, immediately what came to my mind was the burned out entrepreneur. And of course, there's a lot of nuance in there and we can get to details, but that's what came to mind. And there was so many stories I had from the last decade of where I was and what I did to pull myself out of that and build something completely different. And it was born out of real stories, real lived experience, real ability to help someone based on where I was. And that's what I've really, really honed in on ever since we started working together. But here's what I find frustrating. Just going to be really real with you. And I'm thinking of one person in particular, but there's so many, you know, I started using, we have a trademark freedom based business. We started using it everywhere and all of a sudden so did many other people. And there's this one person in particular. I see her using it all the time and she changes her personal brand every three months and I see using it and I'm so frustrated. Not because I'm angry she's using it. Listen, I trademark boss, babe, we're used to that. What frustrates me is there are no stories to really explain why she's passionate about that. And a lot of it is AI driven, content. And I almost want to call her up and say, listen, we could do so much better than this if you leaned into your own uniqueness. Because when you just see someone on Instagram doing something that's their uniqueness and you decide to copy and paste into your business, you might get an immediate, you know, viral post or a quick response. But it is not the way, like your book's wealthy and well known. It is not the way to build a real business. It is not the way to become well known. And it is certainly, well, maybe you'll make a quick book. But if we're talking real wealth, like across the board real wealth, not just money in the bank, it's not the way to do it. So it frustrates me most because I'm just like, if we just bottled your uniqueness and you could be serving people at such a deeper level, why do you think there's such a temptation for people to kind of jump on trends and make that their brand? Is it because diving into those stories is hard? Like, what is that block and how can we start to encourage people to, to lean into that? What is hard? Hard work, the excavating work. But it is so much more of a long term game than just a copy paste strategy.
- [09:29]
B
Here's what I'll say. It's not. I don't think it's someone who is deliberately trying to steal from you and tear you down. I also don't think it's because it's hard to tell the stories. I think it's because it's hard for someone to find their own uniqueness. Right. Like part of why Brand Builders Group has grown so fast is one is because we've developed a really strong system, right? Which is what we lay out. We lay out in this book. And by the way, we're going to give everyone a copy in your audience. We're going to give away the audiobook for free. Um, if you stick around, we'll share the link here in a little bit. But so we. We. We created a structured process and a system that people can go through to find their uniqueness. So I think it's. It's sort of easier to see somebody else operating in their uniqueness and go, ooh, there's magic there. I'm trying to find that magic for me. And so I sort of latch onto that. Or there's a piece of their magic that's a piece of. That is my uniqueness. But I'm not centered on my uniqueness. And so I'm sort of floating around, grabbing bits and pieces of other people. But then I'm just. I'm parroting, right? I'm. I'm playing cover tunes, right? You don't. You don't you. Nobody gets rich playing cover tunes. Now. You can play cover tunes if it's just like, oh, it's just for fun. And this is something I do. But, like, if you want to stand in front of an arena of 50,000 people, like, that's not going to happen playing cover tunes. You have to write the original song. You have to write that song from your heart. So I don't think most people do it in a malevolent way. I think they do it in a very innocent and a frustrated way of, like, I can't nail my own uniqueness. I'm recognizing it in other people. They seem to be having success, and they're kind of like, latching. Latching onto that. So one is. Because it's very. There's. It's been very difficult. And I think, you know, the process we've outlined is. Is really strong because it's not like we don't magically wave our wand and go, all right, Natalie, you were born to talk about X. It's a series of questions that we take people through, and then, like, your uniqueness is revealed by your own answers. And all we're doing is paying attention to the thematic overlap, the consistent themes that we're hearing. So that's part of it. The other part is, I think, you know, what we've tried, what we're trying to do with this book is give people the process, you know, because a book is a very affordable. And in today we're going to give it away for free on audio. But, you know, when we work with people, we work with them one on one. And it, you know, it's not the most expensive thing in the world, but it costs some time, right? We have to pay our, we have, we have to pay our people to, to do it. And it's, it's easier to have someone else see your uniqueness in you, right? Like you're an expert on personal branding. Like, you're one of the, the most well known respected experts on personal branding. And I just, you know, I find it such a compliment and humbling and honoring that you invite me into the conversation of your own personal brand. And that's because you're also wise enough to, to realize that there's value in this. Like the, you know, you can't read the label from inside the bottle. You can't see the force through the trees. And so I don't think most people do it in a malevolent way. But here's what I would say to everyone who has had their content stolen. And by the way, I understand this well. I, in the book Take the Stairs, my first book, Take the Stairs, it was, it was published in 2012, I had a quote called Success is never Owned. It's rented and the rent is due every day. And I am the person who popularized that quote. And there was an. All the, all the NFL teams got a copy because the head of the NFL chaplain program saw me speak. He bought a copy for all the teams. And then a few weeks later, JJ Watt is on an interview with ESPN and they're saying, jj, you know what's made you so successful? And he says it's kind of like this quote I heard Success is never Owned. It's leased, and the rent is due every day. So he changes one word. He's not trying to take credit for it, but because he's J.J. watt, it explodes through the Internet, right? And now it's been used by the Rock. It's been used by, I'm pretty sure Beyonce has used it. Like, people have quoted it out own clients have quoted it, not realizing I'm the original, like, author of the quote because they didn't hear it from me. We have that. I also have a story about how Buffaloes charged the storm, which I built my career on. And now I see people that, that going viral, you know, throughout the Internet. I wrote a kid's book last year called Be the Buffalo just to like, restate the claim of, like, this is my original story. I created it. So there's two things on this. One is a heart issue. The other is a tactical issue for you as the creator who's being copied. Here's the hard issue. If somebody is copying you and it bothers you, I don't think that's wrong. Right. That's a natural feeling. But I think it does, at least for me. Just let me talk about me. It does beg the question, am I here to make a contribution to humanity or am I here to get credit from humanity? Am I trying to get credit or am I trying to make a contribution? Because if J.J. watt shares the quote, and let's say. Let's say it is an idea that is completely original that I came up with, which in my case it wasn't. It's a modified version of something someone told me, right. That I changed it a little bit, which I think most thoughts are. The Buffalo Story was more original. Right. But that's a heart check question is to go, if J.J. watt shares it, then millions of people are benefiting from, let's call it my idea. Let's pretend it was completely original. That's a win for me if I'm a mission driven messenger. And do I lose money from that? I don't know. I don't think that. I totally do. Now you know your situation a little bit different. Someone impeding directly on a trademark or something. You know, you got to protect that and those things. But so there's the hard issue of it to go, all right. A concept that I invented, I championed is helping the world. The other hard part of it to me is the humility of going. Every single thing I create is directly in some way influenced by people who have invested into me and the ideas that I've learned. I don't think that's a license to just go copy everybody. But I do think it's. It's an important heart issue. Let's talk about the technical issue, which to me is really relevant right now. If you're a creator, the thing you don't have to be afraid of right now of being copied by other creators. You have to be afraid of being copied by AI because you will be copied. It is being copied, right? Like Disney right now is suing open or suing midjourney. Because people are just freely recreating Disney characters and things like that. And there's an intellectual property part of this that is legal and business that has to get sorted out. But look, lawsuits. The only people who win in lawsuits are lawyers. Like, even if you win, you lose the time. The Money, the energy, the stress. It's like you don't really win, especially if you're a small business. So our best strategy is to become more centered in who we are as humans. You can copy my buffalo story about how buffaloes charge the storm. It's much harder to copy my story that I tell about being raised by a single mom, being born into a trailer park and how my mom sold Mary K. And so I know more about makeup than I do about cars. Like if someone tells that story, it comes across as completely disingenuous and a lie. So the more centered I am in my personal experience and my humanity and my fears and my screw ups and my mistakes, the harder it is to copy, whether by AI or a competitor. And also you go, if I'm depending on AI to do the thinking for me for my next blog post or my next article article, then what I'm producing, somebody can read or learn from, from anyone else using AI. If it's coming out of my head, if it's coming out of my heart, it can't really be duplicated with the same energy, with the same emotional connectivity. And I think, you know, in a world where AI becomes more intelligent than we are and it produces content faster and it digests everything and it, and it certainly creates much faster, I think people are going to be more drawn to human experiences in person experiences, you know, interactions and that connection of emotions. So your expertise, again, your credibility comes from serving the person you once were, not the fact that you've ingested a whole bunch of information from other people. And so, you know, anyways, that's the best I can say it, but I don't think people copy. A lot of the people who copy, they don't do it. I don't think in with malevolence and an intention to harm. I mean, and in a weird way it's like, look, I want people to share my stuff. That's the whole goal, right? Like that's the reason I put it out there. So you know, there's this weird like legal part of it and, and monetization part of it. But on the money side, I don't believe you can ever be hurt that way. I think money is always returned to you at directly proportionate to the level of value you provide to the world. And whether people know it came from you or not, it always seems to return. At least that's the experience that I've had and the people I know that are super wealthy have had. So it's more of just like, look Inside instead of look outside. Outside. What everyone does is we look at what everyone else does. And this is an interesting part of this conversation too, Natalie, because you hear people talk about differentiation, right? Like, how do I differentiate myself from competitors? I think differentiation is a wildly overestimated concept. Like, I think that is actually not what the most successful creators and personal brands in the world do. Because here's what differentiation says. Differentiation is going. Let me look at what everyone else is doing and try to be different from what they're doing. That's not how we operate. Because that is still an outside in, that's still an external first. You know, starting point. Finding your uniqueness is an inside out job. It has nothing to do with what everyone else is doing. It's starting with who were you created to be? What pain have you, you know, encountered? What challenges have you conquered? What obstacles have you overcome? What setbacks have you survived? That is a uniqueness that no one else can copy, copy or duplicate, not in an authentic way, including AI. And so I think the future of differentiation is more of just starting internal and working from there and letting your uniqueness come out versus looking at what everyone else is doing and trying to come up with something different.
- [19:33]
A
Yeah, I think it's exactly right. And one thing you said in particular too is how it's so much easier for someone else to see your uniqueness than for you too. And I think that's often the frustrating thing. When you see someone copying or regurgitating information, you get frustrated because you look at them, you're like, how? How do you not see your uniqueness? How do you not see how your stories have really positioned you to serve this person? But often, again, it's so hard for that person to see it that they look everywhere else and, okay, this thing's working, I'll jump on this. And that's why I'm such a big fan of your work, because it's okay, instead of doing that, let's just focus on you. Instead of looking at what everyone else is doing, instead of looking at what's going viral, instead of looking at what's popular, let's look at you. Which again, in the age of AI or story, has never been more important. Your humanness has never been more important. Which leads me to the next question I want to ask you about and talk about is with AI, you know, there's been a big conversation of, well, is the personal branding industry over? Is the knowledge industry over? And my immediate answer is, oh my goodness, there's never been a more Important time for you to have a personal brand. And is there a certain way that the knowledge industry is going to die in a new part? B Reborn 100%. Like we can get easy information off of ChatGPT, but the actual implementation of that comes very differently and the lived experience of the person teaching it is very unique. So I think it's not too late, not even close. But I think if you really want to future proof yourself and your business in the next five to 10 years, I think a personal brand is essential. What do you think?
- [21:11]
B
Yeah, look, you're not going to be able to compete with AI on information, right? Like your, our best chance to compete with AI is in our humanness. It's in a, it's in emotional connection. That is our best opportunity is to like you're saying it's your story and to go, yeah, I can learn stuff from, you know, reading and whatever, but it still doesn't, it still doesn't change the experience I have of a personal, a connection with an individual person. You know, look, I think there are some things about AI that are potentially like existential threats to humanity. I also think that that AI has the potential to radically transform humanity and improve humanity in the way that so many other technological advancements have. But at the end of the day what separates us is that we are human, that we have feelings, that we have emotions. I think previous to AI, you know, it's like most animals have only instinct. They don't have reason or rationale. Right. Humans were created specifically with the, the ability to sort of, of reason and have rationale. AI I think is really challenging that which is, you know, interesting to stay the least and you know, potentially scary but also, you know, life life altering and life extending and in terms of our health and all of these other ways that we can improve and distribute education. But I still challenge to go. It doesn't have the ability to emote. Now people can be deceived, people can certainly be tricked and they can, they can extend, they can experience emotions by something that they see with AI. But I, I think a relationship with the conduit of the information is what is unique. Right. I don't have, I don't have a relationship with Chat GPT in the way I have a relationship with Natalie Ellis or with Lewis Howes or with, you know, Ed my led or Amy Porterfield or any of our clients that, you know, we have the opportunity to serve and are also people that I learned from. There's just something that's different there. So yeah, I Think that's, that's the point is it's going from the inside out and it's, I'm not necessarily banking on information, although I would say there. Ever since the invention of the Internet, the widespread propagation of information has been a challenge. Other people can create and copy what you do, but the process that we take people through, so. So you've been through both. So our first experience is called finding your brand DNA. That's like our first, like two day experience, which is where we help someone find their uniqueness. Our second two day experience is called captivating content, where we extract from their own brain original thought leadership, original ip, original intellectual property. And that's where I go. Let's say you're a productivity expert, right? So in our first business, we talked a lot more about kind of time management and stuff. We don't anymore.
- [24:01]
A
Right.
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B
We just do personal branding. But if you talk, take a topic like productivity and you go, all right, if you develop your expertise, this, let's say you're going to be a productivity coach. If the way that you develop your expertise is to read and digest everything that's ever been said on productivity, you're going to distill some of that information, which can be valuable still. But if you actually say, I'm going to invent a method of productivity by teaching people how I do the things that I do in my life that have worked for me and I'm creating from inside out versus outside in, nobody. Like they can't get that somewhere else. And if they can get it somewhere else, they're only going to get it somewhere else after it came from you. And I actually am really optimistic that even though AI, you know, in many ways, let's say the Internet has led to the proliferation of sort of intellectual property abuse. Right. And stealing, I think AI could actually take us back to a place of knowing who was the original author. And every single time someone posts, success is never owned. It's rented in the renters due every day that there would be an alert that said a footnote would show up and say, by the way, this quote first appeared in Rory's Take the Stairs book that was a New York Times bestseller in the year 2012. Right. Like there's just as much of an opportunity for that thing to happen. So in the interim between where we are now and when that happening, people can get that same experience by watching your videos or your podcast and going, I learned from Natalie because Natalie is teaching me things that she's doing in her everyday life and that the clients that she's consulting and coaching with, they're inventing this, right? I mean what we do at Brand Builders Group, I mentioned, you know, some of the other clients that I've worked with, yourself included, is like, our company is not relaying information that we've gotten from other places. Our company is a laboratory of new discoveries and that's how you need to think of your personal brand. You're not curating other things that you're finding as much, which is what largely has been the case. You're a scientist who has to invent new things. And that's where I think the big, the big opportunity is and specifically sharing your story around that. So I think it pushes us to a new level which is what a lot of new technology does as sort of the, the cream rises to the top and that kind of a thing. But even if all the information becomes completely ubiquitous and you can get it from everywhere else, when you go back to where we started this interview and we said how do you find your uniqueness? The shortcut is your most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were. So even if, let's use you as an example, even if you're a mom, if someone is a new mom, they can go ask ChatGPT what are the things that I should know about being a new mom? What are all the tips I need to have and what are, here's my questions about breastfeeding and about, you know, burping a baby and about laying them down at night and you can get all that information. I would purport that it's a long, long way if ever that AI would replace a new mom. Sitting down with you, Natalie, and going, here's my experience of what motherhood is about and here's the meaning behind it, here's the purpose of it and here's the heartbreaking part and here's the, you know, life giving things that you need to know. So I think the community is the other part that becomes really important in the future is building communities of people. That, that's something that we has happened on accident with Brand Builders Group. Like I'm such a nerd that everything was about just creating content. And I think people come for the content, but they stay for the community. They stay for our in person event experiences and even the virtual stuff that we do. And so I think, think, I think that becomes really important is the community. You're, you're, if there's anything you're curating, it's you're curating human Connectiveness, connectedness to other humans. So I think that's an important part of every personal brand going forward. But yeah, I think that mom example is a great example. It's like, sure, chat, CBT can teach me about being a mom, but it, it can't really connect with me on the emotional level that another mom could explaining, you know, or in my case, a dad explaining to a dad. And I think that's the beautiful part of being human that will never go away.
- [28:17]
A
I completely agree with you. Also curious your perspective on, you know, for someone that is hearing this like, okay, I know I need to clearly get my uniqueness distilled. I'm ready to build a personal brand. How important is their ability to go and learn how to tell stories? Because I think, I think it's integral really for their business to be able to really tell stories in a way that someone can emotionally resonate with in a way that can land versus just saying. ChatGPT, draft me up an email based on my experience doing X, Y, Z. Yeah, totally.
- [28:50]
B
So are you okay? Can we give away the audiobook right now? Because this is right in there. All right, so here's where you can get. So our new book is called wealthy and well known. Build your personal brand and turn your reputation into revenue. And what we're doing is we're literally giving away the audiobook, the full length audiobook, completely for free. And we're doing this for our friends and our clients like Natalie that, you know, have been a such a big part of our journey and, you know, letting us support them and theirs. So if you go to freebrandaudiobook.com boss babe, that's where you have to go to get this. Freebrandaudiobook.com Boss Babe, you literally can get the entire book completely for free delivered to you immediately on audio. There's no catch, nothing to it. Just, you know, give us the information, we'll send it to you. The reason I'm bringing that up is to your question about storytelling. Absolutely. Storytelling becomes key. Now. Here's the missing part of storytelling that a lot of people don't understand. And I actually learned this. I'll give a, I'll give a shout out to one of my speaking mentors, a gentleman named Craig Valentine, who was the 1999 world champion of public speaking. And so I got started in this career. I, my dream was to be a speaker. And one of the things I did was I entered a contest called the world championship of public speaking through Toastmasters International. When I was in my 20s because I had this dream of like, I want to stand on stages, I want to inspire people, I want to teach people, I want to coach them. But in my 20s, I'm like, no one's going to hire me. Like, I'm a 20 year old. So I thought maybe if I could win this world championship of public speaking, that would give me the credibility. But people would compete their entire, like people would compete for decades to win this contest. And so what I did is I first, I went out and I spoke 304 times for free. But I also invested in coaching. And one of the people I coached with was this gentleman named Craig Valentine. And Craig taught me something about storytelling that was absolutely life changing, has completely altered my career. And we now cite him and reference him when we talk about this. And what Craig said is he said a great story or the way you do this is you need to tell an eye focused story with a you focused message. So an eye focused story is a story about something that happened to me with a lesson that applies to you. That's how you do great storytelling. It's a story. I'm going to tell you a story that happened to me with a lesson that applies for you. The problem is if you don't know what your uniqueness is, you're telling stories, but they're disconnected from the lessons that align with your business in any way. So in order to tell a great story, you have to first know what is your uniqueness? And go, okay, ultimately I'm. The thing I'm most powerfully positioned to help people with is blank, right? And the very first question in our journey that we take people on is we go, okay, what problem do you solve for people in one word? Right? So what one problem can you solve for people? If you're not clear about the answer to that question, then every story you tell is just a random smattering of entertaining quibs. But they're not a strategically aligned set of messages that point people towards a specific transformation that they can experience in their life through hiring you to support them, overcoming a problem which you can thus make a living from and a huge impact. You can become wealthy and well known. You can make impact and income. So you have to really kind of know the uniqueness first. And to your question earlier about like, why do people steal? I think it's like they, again, they don't have that foundation. They're not anchored, they're not centered because they're not clear on their uniqueness. So they're, they're literally just like floating around, gravitating towards other people's contents and other ideas that they can sort of instinctually tell it's connected to their uniqueness. But because they're not clear, because they haven't done the work of locking in on their uniqueness, you know, they're, they're, they're just a cop, they're a copycat rather than a true creator. Like, we've used that term creator very liberally in recent years. What a lot of creators are doing is finding things that go viral for other people and literally, in many cases, literally transcribing the video and saying the same thing. Now, I think it's fine to go, what is a hot topic that people are talking about? But if all you're doing is literally repeating what someone else said, I can get that from anywhere else. What I need is your take on it, your thought about it, your creativity. And so to be a true creator can't just be, yes, I edit videos and I identify trending topics and trending audio and trending hashtags. It's. I have to create original thinking. A word that used to appear in the lexicon that has disappeared, that I think is going to come back is thought leadership. Thought leadership means you forward the thinking of what's been done on the subject. You're not just repackaging it. You are aware of what's been said. And then you're asking yourself, how can I advance this area of thought? How can I make it faster for people to apply? How can I make it easier for them to understand? How can I bring my own stories, my own experience to create my own lens on it? And where this has actually happened for a long time is with the news. I think that what, what we see with the news and what has happened with the news over the last few decades is actually what I think is the what the future of what we, you know, personal branding and content creators right now is going to look like. You know, like I use one of the people we talk about in our book. And when I say our book, by the way, I co authored it with my wife, aj. My wife is my business partner. She has been my business partner since 2006 when we first met. We actually started as business partners in our first business. I met her through one of my other business partners and we started a company together, and then we've been business partners ever since. And AJ is actually. I'm actually the CMO of Brand Builders Group. She's the CEO of Brand Builders Group. So we co authored this book together. So it's my first book in ten years. It's her first book ever. But anyways, one of the case studies we use in our book is Rush Limbaugh. Suspend whatever political orientation you have for just a second. I'm not advocating or not advocating for Rush. Okay. The reason that we use his example, though, is Rush Limbaugh was the biggest personality in radio forever for decades. Millions and millions of people listening to his show every single week. What's fascinating is that on the surface, you would say all Rush Limbaugh did was report the news, but nobody listened to Rush Limbaugh to get the news. You could get the news from any other number of infinite sources. The reason that people listened to Rush Limbaugh was for his take on the news, his perspective on the news, his vantage point on the news, his personal interpretation of the news. Some people loved his take and that's why they listened to it. Other people despised his take and couldn't more fervently disagree with his take, but they still listen to it. They like, like hate listened to the show. But either way, it wasn't the news that we people were showing up for. It was the person and it. Russ Rush was adding his original thinking. Some would call him an idiot, some would call him a genius, some would call him a patriot. Other people would call him a threat to democracy. But what he was, was unique. He was adding his take. And that's what I think the future is going to look like, is people going, you're not just learning tips and tricks from me. You're, you're getting my insight, my, my vantage point. So that I think is a little bit of, of, of a representation of, of the evolution and where things are going. But, you know, that's, you know, a long way around to edifying what you said. Natalie. Stories are huge. But it's gotta be that I focus story that, that, that story that happened to me with a lesson that applies to you, to be anchored to my unique take, my unique lens on the world, and that's what people will continue to show up for.
- [37:02]
A
Yeah, I really love that. I also just want to say I love getting the chance to talk to you and interview you because you live what you teach. You answer my questions by telling stories, by giving frameworks, by giving really strong quotes that you're known for. And so if anyone is listening, I really want you to listen for that. That, like, listen for the way Rory is answering this. Listen for the way Rory gives frameworks and outline things. And if that is something you aspire to do. When you go on podcasts, when you get on a stage, then listen to the advice. Like, I always. Whenever I'm listening to anyone speak, I'm always going, like, a layer deeper and really loving where he is, doing exactly what he teaches. And like you said, when you wanted to learn speaking, you went and got a coach. You went direct to the source. You were like, you have what I want. You've done what I want to do. Let me learn directly from you.
- [37:56]
B
Yes.
- [37:57]
A
And I think that is the biggest cheat code for us in our careers and life, to be honest. I do it in all aspects of my life. If I want to get better at something, I go and find someone who is good at the thing I want to get really good at, and I learn directly from them. So I just. I really want to call that out because even as I'm listening, so much good information. And I'm like, like this, this is why you get invited onto all of the biggest stages in the world and onto the biggest podcast, because you're also so good at this because you've honed what you do. And so for the people listening who already. I know what comes up in their mind when we talk personal branding. Well, I don't have an audience. Well, no one's going to invite me onto xyz. Well, I don't know how to get on the stage. It's like, get really good at what you do, and that becomes a given. And I also. Just.
- [38:44]
B
Two things real quick on that. So thank. Thank you. First of all. And two things. So one is, yes, investing in learning from people who have done what you're trying to do is the biggest cheat code. And this blows my mind, right, because you're. You're a living example of this, Natalie. Right. It's like you pay to learn even more about personal branding, where you're one of the most successful experts in the world on this. You paying to learn from other people in your own space. And I used to think I was like, like, oh, all the people who would show up for coaching and, like, events and stuff would be all the people just starting out that need all the help and, like, don't know anything. And I found that's not at all true. The people who show up are the people who already are successful. They're already making millions. They already have, you know, millions of followers, even on, like, our own client list. Right? I'm like, Ed Mylett, Lewis Howes, Amy Porterfield, you, Trent Shelton. And then, like, now we have A bunch of doctors. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, Dr. Caroline Leaf, Dr. Henry Cloud. And I'm like, Like, these are people that I learned from. Like, these are people I've learned from for years that are now paying us. Why? Because successful people invest their time and they invest their money. That's why they're successful. And part of the goal with this audiobook was going, we literally will give it away for free. Like, we truly are, like, the bleeding heart, like AJ And I. I mean, we're not the richest people in the world by a long shot, but when you. When you're born in a trailer and you grow up with a single mom and, like, we didn't have bags or, like, we had bagged cereal. Like, we couldn't afford box cereal. I'm convinced that one of the reasons I grew up so ambitious was because all I wanted was Air Jordans. Like, when I was a kid, it was just. I just wanted Air Jordans. And we could never afford them, right? And I got made fun of because I didn't have Air Jordans. I had Air Jordache, if any of you remember, like, famous footwear. And that was. That was just what I grew up with. But we. We're at a point now where it's like, we don't need more money, but what we do need more of is we want to feel like we're making a bigger difference in the world. We do want to feel like we're serving people in a deeper way. And one of the. One of the things that we say at the end of the book is that peace is the new prophet. Peace is the new profit. So that's part of why we're giving away the book is. Is just going, like, for us, we want. That's more valuable than money. You and not say that money is important. Money is important. You do need money. But, like, at some point, you go, like, unless you're trying to buy type jets and private islands and sports teams, it's like, okay, you don't need to be, like, a gazillionaire. So that's why we're, you know, freebrand. Audiobook.com boss, babe, go get it. And. And you are an example of it, Natalie. Like, you're such a learner. It just blows my mind how you're so successful and you're so smart, and you're still, like, investing and learning. Oh, and then the other thing is. Can I. You want to. You. You said you were like, hey, listen to the way he's doing it. Do you want me to. Can I share like a little tip on that. That's not in the book.
- [41:26]
A
Book give me everything.
- [41:27]
B
Okay. Okay. So this is, I mentioned earlier, you know, that our first two day experience is called finding your brand DNA, which is all about finding your uniqueness. This is just what, like, a lot of this conversation has been about. It's what a lot of the book is about. We actually have 14 different two day experiences. The second one is called captivating content, and we teach people how to come up with their thought leadership. So here's the formula. And if you, if you go back and listen even to this interview, you'll hear this pattern. You tell a story, you make a point, you teach a framework, and then you inspire a behavior. You tell a story, you make a point, you teach a framework, and then you inspire a behavior. And so, you know, we'll, we'll tell stories around like, you know, the world championship of public speaking. And then I'll make a point. What's the point of that story? The point is very simple. You tell an eye focused story with a you focused message from Craig Valentine. And that's the point. And then we go, okay, what is that framework? Okay, well, you got to connect that framework to your uniqueness and your vantage. Vantage point. Right? So anyways, that's a, that's part of the, the secret formula that we teach for people to build their own confidence that they're delivering things that are unique. So tell, tell a story, make a point, teach a framework, inspire a behavior. So I just figured we should drop that nugget for everybody.
- [42:40]
A
And it's genius. And I, I really like to highlight that because, you know, I had someone say to me the other day, she was like, well, you're not going to invite me on my podcast. I'm on your podcast. I'm a small fish. And I was like, let me stop you right here. None of us that have podcasts are caring about people's follower count. What we are caring about is, you know, are we interested in talking about the topic that you're talking about? Do you have a good reputation? And thirdly, are you a good interview? Like, if we're being really honest, are you a good interview? Can you actually give value? Can you actually answer my questions? And, you know, when you interview someone that's super early into figuring out what their thing is and what their stories might be, you just have to work really hard as an interviewer to pull that out of them. And it doesn't mean they don't have it. Everyone's brilliant and everyone's so interesting. You just have to work a little bit harder. And so I like to just frame that because I know so many women listening. They have that as a goal of. I really want to get invited onto podcasts that I listen to and I want to get invited onto stages and. And I just want you to hear. It's not about your follower count, but it is about, you know, when we talk about the brand DNA that you talk about that reputation and the different elements that go into it. And are you investing in yourself to be able to do a good job and to be able to deliver on the thing you say you want? So I think that's just really, really important to call out because we're all learning. I mean, I'm. I'm literally. I've got your book right here. I'm halfway through. I haven't finished it yet. It's amazing. And I just wanted to call out some of the parts of it for anyone listening that's like, will it help me? Me? So part one, personal brand principles, which, by the way, I kind of ruined the book I've highlighted all over it. But I do that for my books, which I really love because I love to understand the theory and like, what makes a good personal brand, what all the different principles, how to build a personal brand. So really helping someone find their uniqueness. How to monetize a personal brand, which is essential because it's all well and good having a personal brand, but if you're still going to work your nine to five and you've got no time to do anything with your personal brand, why we have it it. And then what I really love at the end is the personal brand action plan, because it just helps you really put it into action. And I'm actually going through it right now. It's taken me a little bit longer because I'm going through it just to really hone in on everything that I've got because it's never one and done. Like, I think about, you know, I've got a baby coming this fall. I'm going to be going through it again at the end of the year because what is this next baby going to teach me that I can then bring to my brand and my audience to give a different perspective, to infuse my own stories in. And so I just highlight that because I love that you're giving it away for free. And I just think it's essential for people to continue doing this work and to con and to know that this work is never done. Like with all stuff I talk about funnels. It's never done. It's never set it and forget it. So, yeah, we'll put the link below if you want to grab the free audiobook. There's literally no catch to it, you guys. I know tons of you have already gotten it, but we'll put the link below. And I just want to say thank you, Rory, because you've made such a massive impact on my career and, you know, the way that you've been able to reflect back to me what my uniqueness is and help me pull that out has really, really supported me in my journey. And I. Anyone that will listen about you. So I'm really grateful that you're back on the podcast and that you're such a wealth of knowledge and open to sharing it. It means the world.
- [45:52]
B
Oh, buddy. Well, thank you for. Thank you for that. Natalie and I, you are the reason that we exist as a company is going. We want to find the people who genuinely give a crap about helping people that you. You've got to cut. That's gotta be a great hook from that last, you know, little monologue you just said is like, the secret to getting on the Boss Babe podcast. If you want to know what the secret to getting on the Boss Babe podcast is, this is it. It like, and it's. It's. It's like you don't have to be bigger. You have to be better. Right? Like, you gotta be. You gotta be really, really good at adding value. And one of the other things we say in the book is the best form of marketing in the world is a changed life. And you care about your CEO mamas, and you care about the people in your community, and you care about all the people who are watching for free that you make no money from of going, like, adding value. And that. That's what we want because we all have an opportunity to share, shape what the future is going to look like. And we just want to help the people who have a genuine heart to do that to. To be heard and be louder and be bigger. So thanks for letting us be a part of your journey, friend. I'm so proud of you. I'm so honored to be a part of it. And I'll tell you what, like, wait, wait till y' all hear the big things coming from Natalie Ellis in the next year. It's gonna blow your mind. Like, I cannot wait for the world to get full access to what's coming. And I don't. I don't want to spoil it, because I don't know how much you've me told up.
- [47:12]
A
Thank you. That means the world. This was amazing. Everyone go and grab a copy of the audiobook before the link expires. It is below. Rory thank you. Wait wait wait. Before you go, I would love to send you my 7 figure CEO operating system completely free as a gift. All you've got to do is leave us a review on this podcast because it really supports the growth of this show. This is my digital masterclass where I'll show you you what my freedom based daily, weekly and monthly schedule looks like as an eight figure CEO, mama and high performer and I'll walk you through step by step how to create this for yourself. It includes a full video training from me and a plug and play spreadsheet to literally create your own operating system. It's one of our best trainings and it's worth $1,997. But I will unlock access for you for free when you leave us a review. I know, wild right? All you have to do is leave your review on the podcast, take a screenshot of it and then head over to bossbab.comreview to upload it and then you'll get instant access to the seven figure CEO operating system. Again, head over to BossBab.comreview to upload your screenshot and get access. We are so so grateful for all of your support and can't wait to hear how the podcast has supported you.