Imposter Syndrome

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bottom Line – "Imposter Syndrome"

Host: Evan Davis (BBC Radio 4)
Guests:

• Andy Ransom, Former Chief Executive of Rentokil
• Katie Leeson, Former Managing Director of Social Chain, now at Courageous
• Dr. Valerie Young, Co-founder, the Imposter Syndrome Institute
  Date: July 9, 2026

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Overview

This episode of "The Bottom Line" delves into imposter syndrome—the persistent feeling of self-doubt and fear of being exposed as a 'fraud,' even among successful professionals. Host Evan Davis discusses with three guests their lived experiences, the psychological roots of imposter syndrome, its double-edged effects, and practical strategies for coping.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining Imposter Syndrome

• Not a Medical Diagnosis:
  • “It’s not a diagnosis. It’s not in the diagnostic statistical manual... I use ‘syndrome’ to describe a set of thoughts, feelings and behaviors that constitute a pattern.”
    — Dr. Valerie Young [07:51]
• Three Core Components:
  • Belief that one is less competent than others believe
  • Attributing success to external factors (luck, being liked)
  • Persistent fear of being found out
    — Dr. Valerie Young [13:12]

Personal Experiences

Andy Ransom (Rentokil)

• Early Life and Career:
  • Came from a working-class background, initially failed at school, then excelled unexpectedly.
  • Felt out of place and expected to be 'found out' at every new level of achievement.
  • "At its heart, I’m still this nervous 16-year-old kid… is looking around the room wondering, how on earth did I get here?" [11:39]
• Coping Over Time:
  • Persistent self-doubt gradually diminished towards the end of his career.
  • Fear of public speaking mitigated by re-framing anxiety as excitement. [17:26]

Katie Leeson (Social Chain/Courageous)

• Professional Rise:
  • Rapidly promoted within Social Chain, leading to feeling unprepared and exposed.
  • “Six months in was made managing director. That was the point when I thought, I’m going to get found out…” [12:43]
• Younger Workforce:
  • Noted feeling of age difference and outsider status.
• Therapy and Realization:
  • Therapy revealed that her empathetic skills, initially considered a weakness, were actually strengths for the role. [21:43]
  • Developed coping mechanisms, such as redefining leadership in her own terms.

Dr. Valerie Young (Imposter Syndrome Institute)

• Academic Roots:
  • Discovered the imposter phenomenon in grad school, realizing near-universal experience among peers.
  • Originally believed the feeling didn’t fully disappear, but now sees it as surmountable with a different perspective [14:25]:
    • "I don’t feel like an imposter anymore... I’m smart enough to figure it out, to ask other people, and to recognize that it’s okay to be in a learning curve.”
• Types of ‘Imposter Thinking’:
  • Perfectionist
  • Expert (needs to know everything)
  • Soloist (must do it alone)
  • Natural Genius (should come easily)
  • Superhuman (must excel at everything)
    [26:30]

Is It Always Bad?

• Potential Upside:
  • Can make leaders more empathetic, open, and approachable.
  • “If I had a superpower, I would say imposter syndrome contributed to that. I always admit to the fear of failure... It is incredibly reassuring to colleagues.”
    — Andy Ransom [20:34]
• Potential Downside:
  • Can hold people back from advancement or cause burnout.
  • "There are people for whom it doesn't motivate, that it holds them back... that’s a big concern."
    — Dr. Valerie Young [22:50]
  • Coping strategies like over-preparing and overworking can be costly and lead to exhaustion or burnout. [24:42]

Causes and Contributing Factors

• Family background, societal messages, situational contexts (being in a minority group, new fields, rapidly changing industries, or creative roles).
• Unrealistic standards of ‘competence’—feeling incapable if not perfect or all-knowing.
  [26:30]

Practical Coping Strategies

Katie Leeson

• Distinguish Between Types of Anxiety:
  • Some anxiety is growth-inducing; deeper, unrelenting anxiety needs attention.
• Create a ‘Boost Folder’:
  • Collect and review positive feedback as evidence of competence to offset negativity bias.
    [29:54]

Andy Ransom

• Normalize the Experience:
  • Recognize it's common and not unique to oneself.
• Talk About It:
  • Sharing feelings helps reduce their power [30:50].
• Write It Down and Make Plans:
  • Move from anxiety towards action by listing worries and drafting solutions.
    [30:50]

Dr. Valerie Young

• Think Like a ‘Humble Realist’:
  • Accept strengths and also limitations—human imperfection is normal [31:50].
• Healthy Response to Feedback:
  • Learn to value constructive criticism without letting it erase positive feedback.
• Accept Some Anxiety as Normal:
  • Recognize self-doubt as a standard part of achievement—not proof of incompetence.
  • "If you don’t have that what the hell am I doing here moment, it’s time to hang it up."
    — Dr. Valerie Young, quoting Denzel Washington [32:58]

Recognizing True Incompetence vs. Imposter Syndrome

• Performance Matters:
  • Evaluate objectively—if someone consistently fails their objectives, it may be a mismatch for the role, not just imposter feelings. [34:34]
• Beware of ‘Irrational Self Confidence’:
  • Some genuinely overestimate their abilities, the opposite of imposter syndrome ("the smartest guy in the room"). [33:46]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "So clearly I was the Beyoncé of imposters."
  — Dr. Valerie Young, humorously reflecting on her own feelings [06:52]

• "I'd rather work for someone who's got a bit of suffering in this rather than working for a psychopath. I've done both."
  — Andy Ransom [21:18]

• “In the early days…before I would do a talk, before I would rehearse the hell out of this thing…if I did all that prep, if I worked harder, I wouldn't look stupid.”
  — Andy Ransom on over-preparing as a coping mechanism [24:42]

• “Just because you feel like an imposter doesn’t mean you’re an imposter."
  — Evan Davis [33:05]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [03:03–05:22] – Andy Ransom on Rentokil, company growth, and self-perception
• [05:46–06:11] – Katie Leeson’s rapid rise and working for Stephen Bartlett
• [06:28–07:37] – Dr. Valerie Young’s background and discovering the imposter phenomenon
• [08:41–11:41] – Andy Ransom’s early doubts and life story
• [12:43–13:00] – Katie’s acute imposter feelings on becoming managing director
• [14:25–15:15] – Dr. Young on her evolution from feelings to strategies
• [17:26–19:00] – Public speaking: reframing anxiety and its linkage to imposter syndrome
• [20:00–22:50] – Potential upsides and downsides of the syndrome
• [26:30–29:13] – Types of imposter ‘archetypes’ and their roots
• [29:54–31:42] – Actionable coping strategies from all guests
• [33:05–34:34] – Distinguishing between genuine incompetence and imposter syndrome

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Episode Takeaways

• Imposter syndrome is common, even among those at the top, and not officially a disorder—rather, a pattern of thoughts and feelings.
• Coping and overcoming involves self-acceptance, openness, redefining competence, collecting positive feedback, seeking therapy, and challenging perfectionist thinking.
• It can have upsides, making leaders more empathetic and open, but may also hold people back or drive burnout.
• Seeking objective feedback is vital—sometimes doubts are justified and performance needs to be evaluated.
• Practical steps and honest dialogue help transform what can be a crippling fear into a platform for growth and realistic self-appraisal.

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Transcript

[Evan Davies]

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[Evan Davies]

Hello, welcome and thank you for downloading this episode of the Bottom Line podcast. Here you'll find, free of charge, extra content we couldn't squeeze into the radio version. Before we get going, you might like to check out other episodes we've like the one on how to build a successful career without being the loudest voice in the room. Or we had one on feedback, how to dish it out and how to take it. But for now, a feature common to many successful people is that they have a gnawing lack of self confidence, a little voice in the back of the head telling them they're not as good as other people think. Professionally, it can be debilitating, perhaps living in a permanent fear of somehow being found out. It is often called imposter syndrome. Affects people at every stage of their working lives. So today on the bottom line, we are going to delve into it, nail down the concept, the causes and the good tips and tricks for managing it. And my three guests can all testify to some of these feelings and let's introduce them. First up is Andy Ransom, who was chief executive of Rentakil for 12 years until he retired earlier this year. And are you doing anything now, Andy, are you?

[Andy Ransom]

Yeah, I've just joined an amazing charity as the chair designate, the Teenage Cancer Trust. So spend a lot of time creating value for shareholders. Now going to spend a little bit of time doing some more important things.

[Dr. Valerie Young]

Right.

[Evan Davies]

So 12 years at the helm of Rentakil, which is that the biggest pest control company in the world now. It is.

[Andy Ransom]

The biggest. Yeah, now it is.

[Evan Davies]

And that was under your watch? It became it. So what happened under your watch, your 12 years?

[Andy Ransom]

Yeah, I mean, we basically did hundreds and hundreds of acquisitions. When I started, I think we were in about 58 countries. 50,000 colleagues. When we finished, we were in 90 countries, 68,000 colleagues. We'd done 500 acquisitions in the last 12 years alone. And one very big merger in the United States. One of the strange things about pest control, 50% of the world's pest control takes place in the United States of America.

[Evan Davies]

That's a really interesting.

[Andy Ransom]

Staggering, isn't it? So if you want to be big in pest control, you have to be big in America.

[Evan Davies]

Now, I do need to ask, because people never ask this on these kind of business programs. They congratulate you for growing a company and they say, isn't it amazing you took over all these companies? How clever you are. Did you add value by these takeovers or did you destroy value? Because it is very easy to make the sum less than the addition of the part.

[Andy Ransom]

Absolutely. We created a lot of value for shareholders. I mean, you know, share price goes up, it comes down again. Goes up, comes down again. But over the time that the team and I worked together, we created a lot of value for shareholders.

[Evan Davies]

We're going to hear about your kind of confidence as you did that job, a job that requires a lot of confidence. Before we get to any of that, I want to introduce my second guest, Katie Leeson, who is managing director of SocialChain. Now that is a social media agency which was founded by Stephen Bartlett, a dragon on Dragons Den, also host of a very popular podcast, Diary of a CEO. And Katie, you also worked for Gary Neville, though you have a kind of specialism in working for sort of celebrity

[Katie Leeson]

business folk accidentally as well. I think it wasn't the intention.

[Evan Davies]

But now what are you doing now? Then you left those.

[Katie Leeson]

I'm working for myself now. I've launched a consultancy called Courageous, using everything I learned over the time in those businesses and also speaking on stage about the subjects that we're talking about today.

[Evan Davies]

Right, okay. Just give me a quick guide to your career. So how did you get into the kind of social media publicity world?

[Katie Leeson]

I have worked in marketing for the last 20 years. I started out as a grad in traditional media. So I was buying press, radio and outdoor space and knew that if I was going to future proof myself and my career, I needed to move into digital. It was moving so quickly that I needed to keep up. And Stephen actually started following me on Twitter one day. That was the story.

[Evan Davies]

Seriously?

[Katie Leeson]

That's the story. Yeah.

[Evan Davies]

And then he liked you so much.

[Katie Leeson]

And then we started talking and I was looking at what the company was doing and I thought, this my end to the world. So we had A conversation. And, yeah, I was made Ops Director when I first joined.

[Evan Davies]

Any successes in that company? Did you feel you mastered it or.

[Katie Leeson]

I was made MD within six months of being there. So that's part of why I talk about Imposter Syndrome, because going from not knowing about social media to being a managing director in six months in a company is quite a journey.

[Evan Davies]

This is very important we nail this because you obviously were doing something right.

[Katie Leeson]

I think Stephen saw something in me about how he wanted the company to grow. I just didn't see it in myself. But in the six years I was managing director, we grew in the UK, 30 to 130 people and our revenue went up 650%. So it was a journey. And we worked with the biggest brands in the world. It was the best journey, best experience.

[Evan Davies]

Can I ask why you left?

[Katie Leeson]

To be honest, I got burnout. Close to burnout. Not because of the work, not because of the speed, more because it was a lot of people management things and I was taking a lot of people's energy on and I thought I wanted to get back into the work and working for Gary Neville enabled me to do that.

[Evan Davies]

Right. Now, before we get into a general discussion and hear some direct experiences of it, let me introduce My third guest, Dr. Valerie Young, co founder of the Imposter Syndrome Institute, an expert on imposter syndrome, author of the book the Secret Thoughts of Successful Women, and I think subsequently retitled the Secret Thoughts of Successful Women and Men. Tell us how you became interested in it, Valerie.

[Dr. Valerie Young]

I became interested, Evan, when I was about 21 years old. I was a doctoral student at the University of Massachusetts. And another student brought in a paper called the Imposter Phenomenon Amongst High Achieving Women by the two clinical psychologists who first coined the term, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Ies. And this student was describing how all these bright, capable, competent women, because they thought it was particularly women at the time, felt like they were in over their head and they were going to be found out. And I was just nodding my head like a bobblehead doll, going like, oh, my God, that's me. And I looked around the room and everyone was nodding their head. So we started a little imposter support group. We started meeting after class, talking about our intellectual fraudulence, how we're fooling all of our professors. And then about the third meeting, Evan, I started to have this nagging sense that even though everyone else was saying they weren't imposters, like, I knew I was the only real imposter. So clearly I was the Beyonce of imposters. I shifted my whole topic of my research and I decided to look more broadly at women's self letting attitudes and behaviors that led to designing the first educational versus clinical therapy intervention for imposter syndrome. That was 40 years ago.

[Evan Davies]

40 years ago. Okay. Yeah, okay. So it's been going around before we get to the discussion though, Valerie. It's a pop psychology term for sure.

[Dr. Valerie Young]

Yes.

[Evan Davies]

Is it actually a medical term? Is it recognized as a kind of psychological or mental condition?

[Dr. Valerie Young]

It's not a diagnosis. It's not in the diagnostical statistical manual, the dsm. If you were an academic, if you were a psychologist or in a mental health field, you would refer to it as imposter phenomenon because syndrome suggests that it's a diagnosis. I use syndrome as the dictionary would, to describe a set of thoughts, feelings and behaviors that constitute a pattern.

[Evan Davies]

Right. And I know that you, Valerie, are capable of telling us what the key components of it are. I don't want to get too detailed on that until we've heard a little bit about the personal experiences of you and our other guests. So let's just talk a little bit about what it is to be in a very successful career and in a very senior job and yet to feel like maybe you're not quite good enough. So come on, Andy, what were the feelings you experienced as chief executive at Rentokil?

[Andy Ransom]

Yeah, I think to answer that I have to go back a long, long way. I was brought up in a tiny little village, a lovely childhood, working class parents. My dad was the village postman. I went to really very average stroke, poor schools. I wasn't very good at School. At 16 I didn't do terribly well with my exams. I failed Chemistry, O level. Come back to that in a second. So at 16 I was pretty much thought I was done with education, I was done with school. All of my mates were going to go back and do A levels and suddenly this FOMO fear of missing out, if they're all going back to school, I better go back to school. I went back to school, I did my A levels and I aced them. And so something happened between 16 and 18. But I was left with this profound how the hell did that happen and where did it come from and was it real and when would it catch up with me? So I then went to university and I was constantly, well, is now the moment that I'm going to get found out? Is now the moment. And it sort of stayed with me for the first, well, quite a few years of my career where it was a big fear of failure. Then I went to law school and that went really well. But each time I was pushing myself and pushing myself, but in the full expectation that it was only a matter of time before I was going to fall completely on my face. So that's the sort of where it comes from in me. I went to a law firm, they didn't employ many working class folk and so that put me into an environment where I felt sort of probably I shouldn't be here. So it was a, you know, complex little mix.

[Evan Davies]

But by the time you get to rent Akil, you've sustained now a sort of period of some success in your career. You've risen to the boss of a big company. It still carries on that gnawing voice.

[Andy Ransom]

Well, we missed out the bit of why I said failing chemistry was important. I was 23, I joined ICI, Britain's biggest chemical company. And I was there for 20 years, never telling them. I didn't have a clue what they were talking about on the chemistry side. I mean, I was quite good at some of the other things. So you're right. By the time I got towards the top of ICI, and certainly when I went into rent kill, I think for me my career followed a bit of a pattern. I would push myself incredibly hard to prove to myself that it was fine that I was in that role. And one of the things that happens if you push yourself very hard and you do a good job, you get promoted and then the next time that happens, you find yourself, oh my goodness, it's happening again. And at some point I will run out of rope. I didn't, you know, it just kept happening. So obviously by the time I finished my career, I, you know, I felt very differently about myself and whether I was in the right place. But I often say at its heart, I'm still this nervous 16 year old kid that, you know, is looking around the room wondering, how on earth did I get here?

[Evan Davies]

Come on, Katie, tell us about your experience of it.

[Katie Leeson]

Mine didn't really start as feeling like an imposter or a fraud until I was made managing director. I think my whole. I am the daughter of two teachers. So for me failure was not an option because it was just constantly watched. And I did okay in school. I didn't do well in my A levels. I had to go through clearing. And that's how I found out about this world of marketing and advertising. And you could work and you can make money from advertising. And I thought, this is brilliant. So I've done Every move, really, just to learn. And that's what I've realized now, that every career has been shaped by a learning opportunity. But then when I got the job as Social Chain, I went in to learn and then six months in was made managing director. That was the point when I thought, I'm going to get found out. I've only just joined. I don't know what they do, I don't know how we make money. I'm still trying to learn everything I don't know about social media marketing. I'm in charge. Everyone's looking at me for the answers and I don't have them. So yeah, that's what I really struggled with was going into meetings frightened of saying the thing that would make Social Chain look bad or make Steve look bad. And it was a constant battle internally.

[Evan Davies]

And I'm assuming, I mean, the team there would have been probably quite young.

[Katie Leeson]

The average age was 22 when I joined and I was 31. So they all said that the old lady was coming in to ruin the fun.

[Evan Davies]

Valerie, tell me you've heard those descriptions. Are those what you would call imposter syndrome or are those just kind of everyday? You know, we're always questioning ourselves and thinking, can I do this or can I not?

[Dr. Valerie Young]

Yeah, you know, I would not tell anybody you have imposter syndrome or you don't have imposter syndrome. It's an internal experience. You feel what you feel. What I can say, Evan, is in my understanding, there's kind of three pieces that have to be true. One is the belief that inherently, like I'm not as intelligent, capable, competent, talented as other people seem to think that I am. Number two, you know, we do this in the face of concrete evidence of our actual accomplishments or abilities. But the thing is that we externalize them, we chalk them up to personality. Oh yeah, they just like me. That's why they're promoting me. Or they thought my presentation was great, you know, luck, timing, connections, I knew someone. And the third piece then is that we're left with this fear that we are going to inevitably be found out. We're kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. So there's really those three core pieces.

[Evan Davies]

Yeah, that's very interesting because I think that makes it sound like you both did have imposter syndrome to some extent. The found out bit clean. Yeah, the lack of confidence despite. Despite success, I think. Tick. What about your own experience, Valerie, because you basically went into this because you felt you recognized what the psychology of it was.

[Dr. Valerie Young]

Yeah, I absolutely recognized It. And, you know, in the first version of my book, at the end, I said, the dirty little secret is I don't think the feelings ever 100% go away. I think we just kind of learn some tools to be able to talk ourselves down more quickly. But in the 15 years since the book came out, I did a new version a couple of years ago. I changed the ending, Evan, because I don't feel like an imposter anymore. I feel like I look at the world in a very different way that allows me to look at a situation like Katie, for example, of. Well, of course you felt like an imposter. Like, you don't know everything. You are winging it. You are flying by the seat of your pants. And it's about having this core belief that, yeah, I am really out of my depth, but I'm smart enough to figure it out, to ask other people, and to recognize that it's okay to be in a learning curve.

[Evan Davies]

Yeah, interesting. I mean, I do wonder whether, Andy, you just had a lack of confidence or a timidity and whether that is the same as that fear of being found out. But you did have a bit of both of those.

[Andy Ransom]

I think so. I mean, I've had plenty of years to think about it as. As well. And listening to Valerie, I've sort of. I was ticking those off as she went through them, so I sort of felt that, yeah, I probably fit that mold. And I also very much agree with Valerie's comment. You know, as I'm coming towards the end of my career, I don't feel that anymore. But at the end of the day, I can still see elements and feel elements of it.

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[Andy Ransom]

One of my things was I had a absolute fear of public speaking. I'd do anything to avoid it. But somewhere along the way, I forced myself and said, if I'm going to do anything with my career, I'm going to have to force myself. And I did this and then I did it and I got better and I got better and got better and now I really enjoy it. But somewhere along the way, I found a little hack that worked. And it was as I was about to go and do a presentation, instead of feeling anxious, instead of worrying, what if I screw this up? I would convince myself I was excited, I was absolutely going to nail this. And it made a huge difference. And I've sort of shared that with loads of people. For me, in the business world, if you can't speak well publicly, it's quite difficult to be successful. So that was one of the things along the way that changed.

[Evan Davies]

Just specifically on speaking to the whole team. Katie, or public speaking, did you have that stage fright feeling?

[Katie Leeson]

Yeah, I did. Speaking on stage isn't something that I would ever have thought that I would have been doing in my career, but I'm doing it now because I know if I can talk about my experience, experience of feeling like an imposter. For me, it never goes away. Every place that I've gone, every new opportunity I've gone to, it's actually never gone away. So I now know how to think about it. In a way, that's my growth opportunity. So if I can share something that'll help someone today, listening, just one person with a tip to know that it might not go away, but it is capable of managing and I've done my job.

[Evan Davies]

Valerie, talk to us about the connection between imposter syndrome and that fear of public speaking.

[Dr. Valerie Young]

Yeah, I wouldn't say they're the same thing. I mean, I understand it's the Number one, fear and number two is death. So as Seinfeld says, what that means is you'd rather being the casket than delivering the eulogy. But I tell my audience is the same thing that Andy did. Like, your body does not know the difference between fear and excitement. So as you're walking up to the podium or into the room for your job interview or whatever it might be, just to tell yourself, I'm excited. Because people who feel like imposters, there's this expectation that I, I should be confident. 24 7. We conflate confidence and competence. The very fact that we experience these imposter feelings in our mind means, well, I must be one if I'm feeling this way, because if I wasn't an imposter, I'd be confident all the time, which is not true, you know. So part of unlearning imposter syndrome, in my view, Evan, is to get comfortable with knowing that a certain amount of fear and anxiety is just part of the achievement journey and is normal in many situations.

[Evan Davies]

That's so important feel, because I'm lacking confidence on this, that means I can't do it or I'm incompetent. That's a normal symptom. I mean, I think it gets to a question that I would ask about this, which is I wonder whether in both your cases, Andy, Katie, the imposter syndrome had a good side to it. Did you find it allowed you to be more open minded or it allowed you to make you a nicer boss, nicer person because you weren't like brash and domineering? Come on, Andy, did it, did it?

[Andy Ransom]

Yeah. No, I think you're right. I don't think I'd admit to having a superpower, but if I had one, I would say imposter syndrome contributed to that. I'm good with people, I'm very open. I always admit to the fact that I've felt the fear of failure is what I would refer to it. And it's not surprising, perhaps, but lots and lots and lots of people go through the same thing and having someone senior say to them, yeah, it's okay, it's fine. Yeah, I get that. I've always, always felt that way is incredibly, I think, reassuring to colleagues. So I think it's helped me tremendously. I've always owned it. Yeah.

[Evan Davies]

But there are a lot of people who say you can't admit to it because that is showing a vulnerability.

[Andy Ransom]

And no boss and I always encourage people to. We're all human beings at the end of the Day. I think it's much more common than perhaps we think it is. And I put it this way. I'd rather work for someone who's, you know, got a bit of suffering in this rather than working for a psychopath. That I've done both.

[Evan Davies]

Yeah. Katie, talk us through this and whether you found it. I mean, you've made a career out of it to some extent now, but you do you feel it was a superpower?

[Katie Leeson]

I think knowing myself and knowing what my triggers are and knowing why I feel those feelings. I started therapy when I was at Social Chain. It was one of the benefits because I knew that I wasn't fulfilling the role of managing director in a way that I was doing myself any favors or I was doing the company any favors. So I started therapy. And that's when we started talking about. It's the first time I'd ever heard of it. Ten years ago. It wasn't as discussed as it is now. One of the things that she told me to do was look at what the expectation was versus the reality of who I am. So in my head, when I thought of a managing director, I had a man in a suit, an old man in a gray suit. I don't know why, but John Major popped in my head when I was thinking about what a managing director was. Someone who. Who was sat in a corner, didn't engage, ran the business, but wasn't involved in the people side of it. And then when we started exploring it with the therapist, that was when we realized that my skills were actually what SocialChain needed as a managing director, which was someone who had empathy, someone who cared about the growth, someone who was there on the journey with people who encouraged people who was vulnerable. And those were what made me successful. So that's what changed for me.

[Dr. Valerie Young]

Okay, Valerie, if these feelings do propel you, if they motivate you, then I would say go with that. But I want people to be aware that there are people for whom it doesn't motivate, that it holds them back. It keeps them in jobs that they have long outgrown because their coping mechanism is to kind of fly under the radar so that they're not detected. So that's a big concern that I have, that we're kind of elevating the motivation piece and forgetting that there are a lot of people who could go further were it not for these nagging feelings.

[Evan Davies]

Okay, that is another very important point to come out of this discussion. So the business cost of imposter syndrome among your colleagues, Andy, not yours. But other colleagues is that people who have more talent than they understand are holding themselves back. And I wonder whether you as a boss felt that was something to sort of deal with, to bring people out.

[Andy Ransom]

I would say I've had many, many, many conversations with brilliant people over the years and I found myself telling them, you're way better than you think you are. But I found that partly because it's the right thing to do, to give them that feedback, if you believe it, and partly because it's in the best interest of the business because you know you can get more out of them and you know that they're within themselves. I wouldn't say back to what Valerie was saying. I wouldn't say I've ever been motivated by the feeling of imposter syndrome. For me, the byproduct of this massive fear of failure is that I would push myself harder. So in the early days and things like public speaking, before I did a talk, before I would rehearse the hell out of this thing, I would have done it 10 times, 15 times, trying to prove to myself perhaps that if I did all that prep, if I worked harder, I wouldn't look stupid, I wouldn't fail.

[Dr. Valerie Young]

What Andy's describing is also a very common coping and protecting strategy. Holding back, flying under the radar, chronic procrastination. For some people, it's self sabotage. Could be alcohol or substance abuse, or showing up late, you know, to an important meeting. But also overworking over preparing is a coping mechanism, right? Because that fear of failing or looking stupid does motivate us. And the thing is that these strategies work, meaning they help us avoid the anxiety of feeling like an imposter and avoid being found out. But I would say always at a cost. And the overworking over preparing one is it could be burnout. But I totally get Andy. Like preparing over preparing for something that you know very well because it helps you avoid humiliation or disappointment. But it also, it's taking you away from time, doing other things that might be better use of your time.

[Evan Davies]

That's interesting. So, Katie, talk us through. Because you said burnout, how do you link what led you to leave social chain with the kind of feelings you had of inadequacy, perhaps, or in being an imposter in the job as managing director.

[Katie Leeson]

I think I will have definitely over prepared and gone above and beyond when you were saying that I had the term in my head, fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

[Evan Davies]

So you over prepare, you're thinking, if I don't do this, if I don't

[Katie Leeson]

do that I will fail. So I definitely did that. I would say the burnout was kind of separate. It was me trying to be everything to everyone, so I would be a good managing director, which is probably linked to the imposter syndrome.

[Evan Davies]

I mean, it is exhausting, though, dealing with all of that, isn't it? I mean, it is just. It is mentally and perhaps even physically

[Katie Leeson]

very tiring, Draining, yes.

[Evan Davies]

Valerie, do we think imposter syndrome is a sort of genetic condition? What do you think underlies it?

[Dr. Valerie Young]

I think there's a number of what I refer to as kind of perfectly good reasons why, you know, we might have imposter feelings. It could be family messages and expectations. It could be situational. For example, I speak to a lot of doctoral students and medical students, and students, as a segment of the population, which makes sense, are much more likely to have imposter feelings. They're constantly being tested and having their intellect and their knowledge graded and evaluated. People in STEM fields are more susceptible because it's a constantly rapidly changing, information dense field where they feel like it can never keep up, which, guess what, they can't, because no human can. People in creative fields, that's why you hear actors like Tom Hanks and Viola Davis talking writers, famous writers, talking about imposter feeling, because you're being judged by subjective standards, by people whose job title is professional critic, and there's societal factors. You know, whenever you belong to any group for whom there are stereotypes, specifically about competence and intelligence, you're also going to be more susceptible. So all of those family, occupational, situational. But there's also a core reason, in my view, the common core reason for everyone, Evan, is our unrealistic, unsustainable expectations about what it means to be competent. And we can hit that bar sometimes, but being human, we can't hit it all the time. And when we don't, when we fall short, we judge ourselves lacking. We judge ourselves as. As impostors. So the academic literature is very clear that there's a strong link between perfectionism and imposter synonym, which makes sense, but I found it didn't apply to everyone. But I came up with other competence types, if you will. Other ways we falsely understand what it means to be competent, the expert, which think of that as the knowledge version of the perfectionist, where you feel like you need to know 150% before you're remotely competent. The soloist who thinks they have to do it all by themselves. If someone helps them, it doesn't count. The natural genius, which I'm wondering, is a Little bit of what Andy was describing because the expectation is if I was really intelligent and competent, this wouldn't be this hard. Right. The fact that you put in effort to pass your exams kind of proves you must be an imposter. Because if I was really intelligent, like I wouldn't even have to basically study. I should just, no learning curve, just hit the ground running. And the last one being the superhuman who expects themselves to achieve and excel at a very high level at absolutely all the functions in their work life and often in their personal life as well. If we could unlearn that and have a realistic understanding of competence to also understand our limitations and be fine with our limitations, that's going to go a long way in addressing imposter syndrome.

[Evan Davies]

Yeah, I mean we're complex beings shaped by a lot of complex factors. I think we get a very clear picture of a whole lot of things going on there. We've had a really fascinating discussion and we've already had some tips and tricks. I do want to talk about how we should deal with this because I think quite a lot of us to different degrees have fear of being found out or feelings of am I really good enough for what I'm doing and shall I just lie a bit low rather than put myself forward for other things. Katie, talk us through what your advice is to people. Just, you know, a couple of key things that they can take away for sort of making sure it doesn't become disabling an imposter syndrome.

[Katie Leeson]

I think the first is to know from my experience it never goes away because I'm constantly pushing for growth but know what the symptoms are. There's two different types of anxiety, right? There's the first that is that if I do this it's going to be a short lived anxiety that's going to help me grow. And there's the long term anxiety which is the problem. And another one is create a boost folder because our brains automatically go to the negative. If you hear one piece of negative feedback you will stick onto that but you need to hear seven times positive feedback to take it on board. So one of the things I always say is create a boost folder and every time something good happens you put it in your boost folder, you sort

[Evan Davies]

of write it up and have it

[Katie Leeson]

as an email folder and then you've got it as a bank of evidence when you need it and that can just help you boost your confidence as well.

[Evan Davies]

Well, Andy, talk to me about your advice to people if they're the young Andy, dealing with a sort of Sense of being an imposter?

[Andy Ransom]

Yeah. I think for me the first thing is to accept and recognize it's very common. You're not the only one who's got these feelings. So why are you beating yourself up to the level you are? Find your coping mechanism. For me, my coping mechanism was always been talking about it. And then the third thing I do is try and this is more general than just these feelings. If I've got something that is making me anxious now I'm worried about it. I process that in the way of say, I write it down. So what is it that I'm actually worried about? And then I start making notes about, so what am I going to do about it? And the minute I've started taking notes of what am I going to do, I've moved from the anxious phase into the taking control phase. So that making notes, accepting that you're not alone and talking about it.

[Evan Davies]

Valerie, you've already given us quite a lot actually to chew on. But what's your sort of basic advice to people who feel they're suffering?

[Dr. Valerie Young]

Yeah, my basic advice is going to be learning to think like that humble realist, the person who's genuinely humble but has never had the imposter feelings. They're kind of a minority of us who have had those feelings. And people who are humble realists, it's not about a pep talk, right? You've got this and you can do it and you deserve to be here. Because if all it took was a pep talk, there would be no imposter syndrome. People who are humble realists think differently in three very specific ways. They have a realistic understanding of competence to include, again, understanding their strengths, but also being okay with their limitations. The second thing humble realists do is they have a healthy response to failure, mistakes and constructive feedback. Because Katie's right. So often we hang on to the criticism and 25 people say, we did a great job. One says, ah, you know, it was okay, who do we believe? Right, the one person. And the third thing, as I mentioned earlier, to recognize that a certain amount of fear and self doubt is just part of the achievement journey. It doesn't mean you're an imposter. It means you're, you're normal. You know, Denzel Washington, before he walked out on stage in Broadway in Fences, he said, if you don't have that what the hell am I doing here moment, it's time to hang it up, it's normal and just push through it.

[Evan Davies]

Now look, I mean, one way of summing up a lot of what we've heard today is just because you feel like an imposter doesn't mean you're an imposter. Okay?

[Dr. Valerie Young]

Yes.

[Evan Davies]

And there was that old poster. That was something. Just because you, you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. And so just because you feel like a potter doesn't mean you're not an imposter. I mean, there are people who are in jobs that are above them and they can't cope. There are such a thing as people who shouldn't be in the job they're in. So the final point I want is how do you recognize when you actually are an imposter? And you know what, what this job is, it's just above my ability and I should get the hell out of it.

[Dr. Valerie Young]

Well, that takes some humility to recognize that. I think what you're referring to is the irrational self confidence syndrome. People whose belief in their knowledge and skills far exceeds their actual knowledge and skills. Right. That proverbial smartest guy in the room. Some of them go on to lead great countries, as a matter of fact. So

[Evan Davies]

whole other discussion, Valerie, But I mean, there are people who may not even have confidence in a job and actually be thinking, am I suffering an imposter syndrome or actually, am I not very good at this job? And in that situation, I guess, Andy, what you have to do is try and get some objective or decent feedback as to whether you are coping with the job.

[Andy Ransom]

Certainly in the business world, we all have a set of objectives, we all get feedback bank. You're either achieving your objectives or you're not. I've always believed in giving people a second chance and sometimes a third chance. But if you're consistently failing at the tasks that you've been given, whatever you want label you want to put on it, you know that's going to be a problem by definition.

[Dr. Valerie Young]

So, yeah, Andy's right. Either they're in the wrong job or you have a training issue.

[Andy Ransom]

Yeah, exactly.

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[Evan Davies]

Look, let me thank my guests, being very forthcoming and really appreciate that and full of, of useful guidance as well. So that's Andy Ransom, formerly of Rent Akill till March this year. Katie Leeson, now her own company, Courageous Consulting, and Valerie Young of the Imposter Syndrome Institute. Thanks to them, I hope you all found the conversation therapeutic. The podcast was produced by Sally Abrahams and Nick Holland. It was presented by me, Evan Davies and is a BBC long form audio production for Radio 4. We do always welcome comments or reviews if your podcast provider allows it and do Feel free to email us bottomlinebc.co.uk.

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