Best of full interview: Mara Brock Akil Talks ‘Forever,' Black Love, Lessons From Storytelling, Girlfriends’ Movie + More

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Breakfast Club

Guest: Mara Brock Akil
Host(s): DJ Envy, Charlamagne Tha God, Jess Hilarious, Dr. Elizabeth Poynter
Episode Date: January 1, 2026
Theme: Mara Brock Akil on ‘Forever,’ Black Love, Storytelling, and the Legacy of ‘Girlfriends’

Overview

In this “Best of” Breakfast Club interview, legendary showrunner and writer Mara Brock Akil discusses her latest show “Forever” (streaming on Netflix), her journey as a Black storyteller, the global reach of Black stories, intergenerational themes, Black love, parenting, the evolution of TV, the lasting legacy of “Girlfriends,” and the importance of authentic representation. The conversation is insightful, personal, and filled with gems about creativity, parenthood, and cultural impact—relevant for fans of television, Black culture, and anyone interested in the craft of storytelling.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

Mara’s Career: From National Classics to a Global Stage

[03:39–04:33]

• Mara reflects on the significance of her career milestone with “Forever”—her first major show with a true global platform (Netflix).
• Mara Brock Akil: “Normally my shows are on up and coming networks, so I feel like an ingenue. Actually, I feel both veteran and…in awe.”

The Netflix Deal and Adapting “Forever”

[04:54–06:52]

• Mara details how her Netflix deal originated—her earlier project, a documentary with Dr. Abraham Kendi, paved the way for “Forever,” based on Judy Blume’s seminal novel.
• She describes meeting Judy Blume and feeling a sense of purpose in adapting the work, noting the special synergy with Netflix and the importance of being fully supported as a creator.
• Netflix’s support extended even to expensive location shoots: “Episode five, we went to the Vineyard…taking your crew across the country…another level of support.”

Adapting for Streaming vs. Traditional TV

[06:52–08:08]

• The team discusses how writing for Netflix changes the approach —no weekly wait, so “the job is to keep you on those eight episodes.”
• Mara credits her mentor Ralph Farquhar and classic TV writing (with cliffhangers) as great training.
• Mara Brock Akil: “There’s that athlete spirit in me. Like, I want the ball… Let’s go.”

Judy Blume’s Impact & Adapting a White Family’s Story to a Black Family

[08:08–13:22]

• Mara describes Judy Blume as her “first permission slip” as a storyteller (“She is twirling. She is cartwheel…my little girl is like, she cabbage patching.” [08:20])
• Setting the series in 2018 allowed her to explore tech’s impact and the emotional disconnect of today’s youth, making it current while addressing timeless adolescent themes.
• She explains why she chose to change the story’s family to Black: to reflect specific Black parental anxieties in the era between Trayvon Martin and George Floyd—a time of acute vulnerability for Black parents and kids.

Notable Quote:

“There was no amount of fancy zip codes or education that could save your child…and that was scary. I needed a place for me as a mother to release all that fear.” [12:32]

Black Male Vulnerability & The Pressures of Black Youth

[14:33–16:13]

• Mara highlights the lack of space for Black boys and their complexity: “Boys, and more specifically black boys, they’re not all that hard… They don’t have any room for their feelings.”
• She critiques gendered expectations and the need for greater emotional depiction of Black youth.

Technology, Mistakes & Pressures for Black Teens

[16:13–18:47]

• Technology magnifies errors—one mistake can follow a Black teen forever (“Make one false move, you won’t get a scholarship” [17:41])
• Mara wanted to humanize her young characters, give them scope, and stress the need for spaces where Black kids belong.

Epic Love & Space for Black Adolescence

[19:10–21:13]

• Mara discusses the importance of physical and psychological space for Black kids—creating “epic and intimate love stories within a love letter to Los Angeles.”
• Scenes like the Santa Monica Pier takeover convey the presence and beauty of Black youth.

Cross-Generational Perspective

[21:13–23:29]

• “Forever” also tells the stories of adults in parallel—Charlamagne and Mara discuss why seeing complexity in Black adulthood on screen matters as much as positive representation.
• Mara rejects “positive images” as the goal: “To be perfect, that’s just as hard as to be bad. I want the spectrum of my humanity. I want to be able to make a mistake and have my village patch me up and put me back out there.” [21:49]

Parenting—Fear, Love, and Two-Parent Households

[23:29–34:21]

• The hosts and Mara reflect on how Black parents often parent out of fear, even when deeply loving, and how that shapes their children.
• Explores the balance and differences in two-parent households. Mara: “The father, or the second parent, is the first bridge to the outside world and how needed that role is.” [30:52]
• Mara is candid about her own parenting shortcomings and the “privilege” of being a child’s safe space even when they “act the [fool].”

Representation, Visibility & Making Good Decisions

[34:32–39:54]

• The interview delves into the vulnerabilities of Black girls in white-majority schools, the hunger to feel beautiful and visible.
• Mara and DJ Envy discuss how their children’s experiences at PWIs (Predominantly White Institutions) can impact self-esteem and relationships.
• Mara: “There’s an upside…But the consequence a lot to that is they’re not being seen…they don’t feel beautiful.” [38:35]

Writing the Hard Truths of Adolescence

[34:32–39:54]

• Mara speaks about how tough it was to depict situations like leaked sex tapes and betrayal honestly, but also with compassion for the complexity of teen decision-making.

Black Love: Real vs. Curated

[43:53–46:50]

• Charlamagne asks what makes Black love in “Forever” feel authentic. Mara’s response: “It’s just me paying attention to my own life, the life around me, just paying attention to us…that’s my job as a storyteller.” [44:56]
• She shares her parenting approach—honest, opinionated but making space for her kids’ evolving perspectives.

The Influence of Motherhood & Spiritual Growth on Mara’s Work

[50:07–54:57]

• Mara details how her own parenting journey and therapy shaped “Forever.” She wanted the show to mirror real parental fears and generational hopes.
• There’s a strong emphasis on giving Black boys permission to cry, be sensitive, and pursue dreams fully.

Love’s Endurance, Closure, and “Girlfriends”

[61:09–82:54]

• Mara sees “Forever” as being about love in all forms—love had, lost, or still believed in.

“Even if you don’t last, the couple doesn’t last…the love can last. It just—it might shift.” [61:14]

• She shares the emotional, cultural, and commercial case for a “Girlfriends” reunion movie, expressing optimism about its future.
• The conversation explores the evolution of language used to describe characters (from toxic to complex), the importance of reflecting friendship’s intricacies, and why “Girlfriends” endures across generations.

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Notable Quotes

• “I want to be able to make a mistake and have my village patch me up and put me back out there. I deserve that. …I want the spectrum of my humanity.” —Mara Brock Akil [21:49]
• “Back in the day, boys had to walk across the room to ask you to dance…All those social cues that you have to learn in real time. We’re not learning that—there’s no space for that.” —Mara Brock Akil [18:03]
• “I want the kids to be back outside…Where are kids allowed to be?” —Mara Brock Akil [18:47]
• “I know about your guilt because I have it in. I have my own. …We want our kids loved, and we want them protected. We want them safe in the world.” —Mara Brock Akil [45:31–45:52]
• “I believe in love…Love can stay present. And they showed us how to let go and keep love… The question: is someone a forever love or the one you remember forever?” —Mara Brock Akil [61:14]
• “Did you have a good at bat? Sometimes you strike out, but you still had a good at bat. I think that’s what love is about.” —Mara Brock Akil [63:59]

Memorable Moments

• Charlamagne’s playful demand for closure on “Girlfriends” and the show’s ongoing cultural impact [68:26–73:00].
• In-depth discussion of how language and labels have evolved when analyzing TV characters’ behaviors (“toxic” vs. “complex”) [74:54–80:05].
• Mara and the hosts’ candid sharing about guilt, growth, and the vulnerability of Black parenthood.

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Detail | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:39 | Mara on transitioning to a global stage and her feelings about “Forever” | | 06:52 | On writing for Netflix vs. network TV | | 08:08 | Judy Blume’s influence—storytelling as a full circle moment | | 13:22 | The significance of setting “Forever” in 2018; reflecting Black family fears between Trayvon and George Floyd | | 14:33 | On Black male vulnerability and representation | | 16:13 | How technology amplifies pressures and mistakes for today’s teens | | 21:29 | Why “positive images” can be as limiting as negative ones—complexity is the real goal | | 30:52 | The emotional importance of two-parent households and the roles they offer | | 34:32 | Uncomfortable truths Mara faced in writing “Forever”; depicting hard realities like sex tapes | | 44:56 | What makes Black love feel real, not curated | | 50:07 | Mara’s maternal evolution and its influence on her writing | | 61:09 | Is “Forever” about love found, lost, or believed in? | | 68:26 | Mara on hopes for a “Girlfriends” reunion and the show’s enduring relevance | | 74:54 | Debating the label “toxic”—rethinking how we describe TV characters and friendships | | 82:23 | Mara’s wish for “Forever”—to give people permission to want love in every aspect of life |

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Closing Thoughts

Mara Brock Akil’s interview is an insightful, expansive meditation on the power of storytelling, the depth of Black family and romantic love, and the necessity of truthful, complex representation on screen. The conversation is a reminder of the need to honor our stories fully: the joy, the pain, the complexity—and above all, the love that endures through time and across generations.

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Listen to this episode on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Guaranteed human.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

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[Mara Brock Akil]

Johnny, the kids didn't come home last night. Along the central Texas plains, teens are dying. Suicides that don't make sense, Strange accidents and brutal murders in what seems to be a plot ripped straight out of Breaking Bad.

[DJ Envy]

Drugs, alcohol, trafficking of people.

[Mara Brock Akil]

There are people out there that absolutely know what happened. Listen to Paper Ghosts, the Texas Teen.

[DJ Envy]

Murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts from.

[Mara Brock Akil]

NBA champion Stephen Curry comes Shot Ready, a powerful, never before seen look at the mindset that changed the game.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I fell in love with the grind. You have to find joy in the work you do when no one else is around. Success is not an accident. I'm passing the ball to you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Steph Curry redefined basketball. Now he's rewriting what it means to succeed. Order your copy of the New York Times bestseller Shot ready [e-mail] welcome to Decoding Women's Health.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

I'm Dr. Elizabeth Poynter, chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City. I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

100% of women go through menopause. Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it?

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Poynter on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know the shade is always shadiest right here. Season six of the podcast Reasonably Shady with Gisele Bryant and Robyn Dixon is here dropping every Monday as two of the founding members of the Real Housewives Potomac. We're giving you all the laughs, drama and and reality news you can handle. And you know we don't hold back. So come be reasonable or shady with us each and every Monday. Listen to Reasonably Shady from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Well the holidays have come and gone once again. But if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift, well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

An early present for next year. What do you have to lose?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch limited time, 50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Wake that ass up in the morning.

[DJ Envy]

The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy. Just hilarious. Charlemagne the guy. We are the Breakfast Club. Lorna Rosa is here as well. And we got a special guest in the building.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

The legendary.

[DJ Envy]

That's right, Ms. Mari Brock.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Welcome.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you. Good morning. Good morning. Nice to be here. How are you?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Blessed, black and highly favored. How's your energy?

[Mara Brock Akil]

It's great.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Okay.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I'm really. I'm floating.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

How does it feel to have yet another hit TV show? Another.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Another hit TV show. But this is global. This is like the first time I have been on a stage this big. Normally my shows are on up and coming networks, so I feel like an ingenue. Actually, I feel. I feel both veteran and both. I'm also in awe. You know, it's just this. An idea is a global conversation that is kind of. I'm sitting in that mostly my career. I've been thinking about a national conversation, but this is a global one. And I mean, I've always known that our stories are global. But for it to be a reality, it's pretty special. And another hit, right? To be at it. 30 years in the game. 30 years in the game.

[DJ Envy]

I love it. But let's talk about it. Of course, for people that are just tuning in. You created shows like Girlfriends, the Game Being Mary Jane, you've written on the Jamie Foxx show and so many others. But this one is Moesha Moshe.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So many South Central oc.

[DJ Envy]

So many.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I see you.

[DJ Envy]

This one's on.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, yeah.

[DJ Envy]

This one's on Netflix.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yep.

[DJ Envy]

So how did the next Netflix play come together with doing forever?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I had a deal. You know, my career did garner me a really wonderful deal. Out of that deal. I did stamp from the beginning. I hope you guys all saw that amazing documentary that Roger Ross Williams directed. But about Dr. Abraham Kendi's work, about the racist lies. I mean, the myths of Racism. That was my first offering in my deal, and this was the second. It took a minute. Strikes and executive changes and whatnot. It took a minute to get this one out. But it was special from the beginning. I met Judy Bloom. Somebody else's. Come on.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Come on, Icon. Two of my favorite storytellers coming together.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Come on. I mean. I mean, and that's. God, absolutely. First of all, I didn't even realize that the book was gonna be 50 years old by the time we released. It was not even in my thinking of that time.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah, it came out in 75.

[Mara Brock Akil]

75. But, yeah, it took us a minute to get it out, but we got it out. And so when Netflix heard that. That my take on her story, she was about, they were like, we are about that, too. So it was a beautiful synergy. One thing I will say about Netflix, when they're behind something, they are behind it. Completely supported, resourced. I think that's what's important to me in this. This moment of this hit show is that it was my vision, was supported financially. And also episode five, we went to the Vineyard. Taking your crew across the country in the middle of production, that is another level of support. And in a place that the infrastructure is not there. Thank you so much. Yeah. So it was amazing to feel like, wow, I'm supported, got money. To have the vision that I want and to get the people that I need, the collaborators, it's been amazing. So short answer is Judy Bloom. Is Mara Barca. Kill Netflix, wanted all of that.

[DJ Envy]

When you approach Netflix, do you approach it differently? Because, you know, with a lot of the shows that we spoke about is you have to wait for next week. Right. So it's almost like you can't wait. You schedule it, you write it down. Well, Netflix, a lot of times, it's a lot differently because everything is right there in Smacker.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You could binge watch it at your own leisure.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, correct.

[Mara Brock Akil]

When you know that's. I think that's what I'm thankful for, to know how to make television and be able to stretch the canvas differently given different circumstance. And so my job is to keep you on those eight episodes. I learned that back in the day when we used to have to do cliffhangers for the season, like, you know, during Girlfriends or even Moesha, we had to get you watching for the. You know, for the end of the season or if there was a break in the middle of the season. So I learned how to craft that. Shout out to my mentor. I'm always going to shout out my Mentor Ralph Farquhar. I learned how to make TV that way, how to keep you engaged, how to keep that binge going. So I understood that. But it also was. It was also sort of just a fun way to play in their sandbox. How do you win on their. With their rules? And so that was, for me, as a creative, is wonderful, but there's an, like, that athlete spirit in me. Like, I want the ball. All right, I want the ball. Let's go. So that was fun to figure out.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You. You said Judy Bloom was your first permission slip as a storyteller.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, my goodness.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

So how does your inner child feel knowing that you have done such justice to one of her iconic work?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Why does my inner. She feels on cloud nine. She is twirling. She is cartwheel. I used to cartwheel back in the day. I. I could cartwheel, back bend all the things she's doing, all of that. I'm very proud of myself. It was interesting because my body of work, or I approach my work, I don't ever. I never saw myself as needing ip. I'm like, I'm full of stories. I'm full of original stories, so. But when the opportunity to reimagine one of her books, there was no thinking. My hand just went up. And I feel like it was a little protective as well. It was like, I want to protect that story. I want to be able to tell that story. But my little girl is like, she cabbage patching.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Does she feel like she made it? Do y' all feel like you made it?

[Mara Brock Akil]

She's felt like. She's felt like she's made it a long while ago. Okay. I think this is different in that it's a full circle moment. I feel. I often say that you become a writer as a reader first. And so I used to get lost in the pages of Judy Blume. And so for me to be just the divinity of it, like, the divineness of it, that I would come full circle 50 years later, like, those kinds of things, Right. It's almost like it was written for me. It was written for me and Judy. Matter of fact, I'm gonna get a chance to meet her personally. I'm so excited.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You go down to Key West.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, Yeah, I am.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Okay.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, I am. You live this life once, and I'm gonna live in that dream. So I'm excited to meet her. We met at the time on Zoom and talked on the phone and emailed. But just to meet her and say thank you and have her sign my book, I'm just that 12 year old girl is running to Key West.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I've did it. I've done it a couple of times.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Just to go meet Ms. Blue.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I love it. Yeah. Just to, you know, that's why what I really would love is for people to honor more of their story. The craftsmanship, sitting in the chair and writing. That woman sat in the chair and wrote. I mean like. I mean it's like she never got out of the chair. Just writing and that and what it would do, just someone sharing a story, just my own testimony is. It ignited something in me. And I think that even the feedback I'm getting from the show, not just the show, but the shows I've had in my career, it has ignited other storytellers. And I want us to do. I want us to do more by that. We have so many stories in us that will die in us if we don't even start crafting them and writing them down. And I appreciate like social media and we can do things, video and content, I get that too. And that's a beautiful expression. But to literally craft story from a writing perspective, to have those layers of theme and complexity and understanding that her book is still through this show now is still. It still lives. It's universal. It's forever. Ba dum ba. See what I did there? The original book was written in the 70s. Yeah. 75. Why did you choose to specifically set this story in 2018? Well, I had to look at what would make it fresh today. And what. So maybe have to look at where the kids are today. And Judy and I talked about. Well, they know a lot about sex. Like there's so much. You can just hit Twitter. Hit whatever. There's no Twitter anymore. You get the point. But intimacy, connection, those things, I think we're further away, even though we are more technically. I can't get this word out. Technologically advanced we don't have though these tools are meant to connect us. We are using them in very disconnecting ways. And I think that to. To bring the phone into the conversation, one is an opportunity to talk about something unique to this culture. Yeah, I mean, excuse me culture, but this generation, excuse me, what it is doing to them personally, emotionally, their emotional self, their, their. And then how it's even affecting their physical self and then affecting their future. And that's what the book was about. How do we explore our emotional self, our physical self, while maintaining a healthy future. And this was my conversation today also between. I also wanted to talk about in the black family by. By changing the White family to black. It allowed me to also talk about a time that I think is very important for us to. To document between Trayvon Martin's murder and George Floyd's murder, George Floyd's murder. We as black people, we as black families, as mothers and fathers, we were screaming into a vacuum about the fear over our children. And there was no amount of fancy zip codes or education that can save your child, you know, and that was scary. And I wanted. I needed a place for me as a mother to release all of that fear. And then also. Then look at how much we are. We are out of love, but we are raising our children from that fear.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And how that is hurting our children and their inability to have a natural rite of passage to explore, again, their emotional. Their emotional self, their emotional maturity, their physical self, their physical maturity to have sex or not have sex, who to have it with, what's the right conditions, all of those choices that they're supposed to be making right now to protect a beautiful future. And that's another thing. We need to open up some space because our children also need a future. And it's tough out there. And I couldn't imagine being them today. Thinking about when people, what do you want to be with your girl? Well, what's out there? And so. And we adults need to get it together. And so this is a part of my. My offering.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

I was going when the book. So back in the 70s, it was controversial because of the things that it explored. Today, it's not controversial because we are so open. Like, what you talk about when you were crafting, like, what the storyline would be and how you would redo it. Were there things that you were like, I want to make sure I get to. Or make sure I get in this storyline. Because you also made it feel closer to home for, like, black teens. Like, now forever feels like it's our story. But you had to do it a different way.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know, I think it's controversial. Black male vulnerability. It's just. There's no room for it. I think there's no images for it. And yet when I'm looking in the world within my own children, their friends and the community, beyond that, a lot of boys, and more specifically black boys, they're not all that hard. You know, they don't have any room for their complexity. They don't have any room for their feelings. Like, it's always funny to me, especially when the group of boys I'm around, they're all privileged. They live a great life. Time to Take a picture. They were laughing two seconds ago. You trying to take the picture. And then they get that stoic face. What you mean mugging for, like, you know? And you realize how much that's imparted on young black boys all the time about what is manly, what are those images of what a man is? And I wanted to make room for the real reflection. I'm actually looking at the real thing. It's just what gets on that bigger screen and how important it is. I know we talk about representation matters. That's why it matters. You got to see yourself.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

In order to decide, is that beautiful? Is that how I want to look? You know, Is that right? Is that tight? You know, can't see it. And I think. I also think boys. And working on this project, it made me look at something I hadn't looked at before. I think boys are getting their heart broken a lot sooner.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

I felt so bad for adjusting the whole time.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Why?

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Because I just felt like some of the things that they were experiencing, like, I had. I mean, I remember being that age and going through, like, my first, like, relationship things. But I don't know, I just felt like a lot of times, the characters, they. They were yearning for this, like, space of, like, I don't know, to just be okay. And then things would be going good, and then something else would happen. It'd be something small, would be, like. For Keisha, like, the video gets sent to her phone, and she's finally in this relationship.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know what I mean?

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Like, things were just, like, happening. I'm like, dana, kids. Like, why can't they just be? And not to deal with these things.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Life.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, it's life. And it's also technology that we didn't have. We got some freedoms without, you know, that they don't. They're not afforded. And so that's what I want to talk about. It's like, are we making any room for them? Like, one of the things that I love when we. Every production meeting, I said, we're making an epic and intimate love story within a love letter to Los Angeles. Right? And what that meant to me is that we need to see them in scope, in scale, and epic. I need to see them, their bodies in the space in Los Angeles. What that means is that it's a feeling cinematically that I'm making you feel that they belong here. And when they belong here, they belong to us. And so you will engage with our children differently, psychologically, emotionally. Those things are important in our image. On the details. The details on Anyone makes them feel more human to you. So I want to make just room for their humanity so that we. We think about the measures around technology. We think about what the rules are for these kids. I mean, like, these kids are being told today that you make one false move, you won't get a scholarship. I mean, come on.

[DJ Envy]

It's the truth that follows them for the rest of their lives.

[Mara Brock Akil]

For the rest of their lives. And that. Where is any room? There's no humanity in that.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

That's how I felt. Maybe that was the humanity part. I'm like, yo, she's young. She made a mistake. Now it's following her. And it's like he's in love, and he just doesn't know how to navigate it. And now he feels like he's not a good person or not a good person. He doesn't feel like he can win the girl in the beginning of things. And I felt bad for that, like.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But you know what? Back in the day. Back in the day, boys had to walk across the room to ask you to dance.

[DJ Envy]

And that was tougher. That was tougher.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Have you ever done that before? Yeah. How did. Do you ever get rejected?

[DJ Envy]

No, I've never got rejected.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Before.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You was like.

[DJ Envy]

Cause I'll be honest. I only went when I knew I was gonna be received. If I knew I was gonna get rejected or there was a 50. 50 chance I wasn't gonna try. Because, remember, it wasn't, you know, back then. It was a party, and everybody standing on the wall, and you have, like you said, you have to walk across. And if I knew this person wasn't feeling me, didn't wink at me, didn't have a crush on me, didn't write.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Me a letter, didn't hold a stare, didn't hold a stair.

[DJ Envy]

I wasn't going. But if I knew that I got that little stare, that little smile, I was gonna go.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So it was just all of those social cues that you have to learn in real time. We're not learning that there's no space for that. So I'm advocating for. I. I want the kids to be back outside. Like, it's even sad. We shot on Fairfax Avenue, right? It's a ghost town right now. But back in 2018, where it was depicted, that was a place for them to be. But there's. We are. Where are kids allowed to be?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

But that's why I love the scene. I love the scenes at Martha's Vineyard. I love the scenes at the prom.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, gosh.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Especially at the prom, because I Feel like in that moment, Justin was. You know, everybody talks about, he's chasing the young lady. To me, it felt like he was chasing his blackness.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah, that's what it felt like.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you for seeing that. Yeah. You know, one of the things I was trying to say, trying to keep your. Trying to keep our children safe. Sometimes we're isolating them. He had a pretty prison, but it was up on a hill, isolated, and he's looking for more. But I can also understand Dawn. She's so scared to put him outside, you know, also scared. Is he gonna measure up to where they are? You know what I'm saying? She's probably not saying that, but that's. Psychologically, it's kind of. It's under there. But fun fact, I was so proud as a producer to put all those black and brown kids taking over the Santa Monica Pier. I don't. You know, I found one location. I think that's. I think the last time someone took over the pier at that scale was Tom Cruise. I was like, okay, wow. But that means something to me. That means something that we. How we take up the space, the epicness and the beauty of us. These kids are looking like this all over our country, and we see it on Instagram or TikTok or things like. But to put it on that scale, that level of beauty, Anthony Hemingway directed his butt off in that. You know, the kids were just beautiful. Our costume designers, amazing. Our production design was amazing. Our cinematography was amazing. You know what I'm saying? We had the thing lit up. I was on cloud nine that day that we shot, and we got out of there safe and sound. That's also important. But it's our kids having space in the world, chasing themselves, figuring out who they are, including of their blackness, including of their, you know, what they like, just who they are. Even the making room for. I know I get a lot of comments around, wow, he likes Naruto. Yeah, A lot of black kids love Naruto. You know, we're a part of the world, so that was fun.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And as much as it's a story about the kids, it's a story about the adults, right? Like. Like the way Judy Bloom made people feel seen at 13. It feels to me like you're making us feel seen at 40 something, 50 something. So what do those ages need that nobody's writing about?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I'm gonna keep saying this over just more complexity, more. More of our human side. Like I, you know, I have said before, I don't, you know, I don't really believe in positive images. I think they can be just as damaging as negative images.

[DJ Envy]

What do you mean?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Expound on it?

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, Break that down because.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Okay, so the negative image is a. Is. Is. Is a. A product of a lie going back to the documentary. Like, it's the perpetuating the lies in the midst of us that's been out there. So a lot of black people want a positive image because they want to rewrite the wrong of somebody else's view of me. But what that does as an artist, it keeps me behind the eight ball. I'm chasing up and trying to clean up somebody else's mess. I'm from the Zora Neale Hurston school of thought. I know my people. I see my people. I want to be able to talk about them fully. And in the spectrum of our humanity, there is light and dark. We are not. We are not perfect. To be perfect, that's just as hard to be perfect as it is to be bad. Like, I want to. I want the spectrum of my humanity. I want to be able to make a mistake and have my village patch me up and put me back out there. I deserve that. You deserve that. We deserve that. And so I want the spectrum of who I am. And. And sometimes I'm. You know, sometimes I'm. I'm not great, and sometimes I am in the same day, in the same hour. And I deserve that, that sort of exploration of who I am as a human being. And I give that to my characters. I think dawn, for instance, you know, people. There's a lot of conversation about her as a mother, but that black mother has raised a lot of kids to get them, to keep them alive. Does she deserve looking at herself? Yes. Hi, my name is Mara Brock Akil, and I'm a former Don. I put my pain on the screen. I think, you know, I wanted to out of love. I'm trying to overprotect my children, and rightfully so.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah, but. And you end up. Well, she ended up raising her child out of fear and not love. And that's a question I always ask because I feel like my father raised me out of fear, and I love not meaning that he didn't love me.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes, and the kids know that. The kids know that they're loved, but it still feels constrained.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

But that dynamic was amazing, though, the way you had Don, you know, being the overprotective parent who was raising her son out of fear and not love. But then the father, Wood Harris character was, you know, high, high emotional iq, you know, very vulnerable, soft with his son in a way that we don't really see on tv. Especially between black men and, and, and, and between black men, period. I thought that was incredible.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you. I really, first of all, shout out to Wood Harris and Karen Pittman. They filled those roles.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

You couldn't have casted it any better.

[Mara Brock Akil]

No, I mean, oh my God. I mean, soon as we met Lovey and Michael and put them together, it was like, come on. Chemistry off the jump. Their chemistry was amazing. Karen and woods, you know, I did want to depict two types of black families that are, that we, that we recognize. Right. But speaking about the Edwards for a moment, it just shows you the need to have two partners in a home. Just the balance of it all.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Absolutely.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I think that Eric could be that because he has such a solid foundation in dawn and vice versa. I'm saying I feel like he had his emotional maturity is how much he is loved also by her. And so.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

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Book now at vrbo.com hi, I'm Dani Shapiro, host of the hit podcast Family Secrets. We were in the car like a rolling stone came on and he said, there's a line in there about your mother.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And I said, what?

[DJ Envy]

What I would do if I didn't.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have. I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened. These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming 13th season of Family Secrets. Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us. I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets. The ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are. Listen to family secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You know the shade is always shadiest right here. Season six of the podcast Reasonably Shady with Gisele Bryant and Robyn Dixon is here dropping every Monday as two of the founding members of the Real Housewives Potomac. We're giving you all the laughs, drama and reality news you can handle. And you know, we don't hold back. So come be reasonable or shady with us each and every Monday I was going through a walk in my neighborhood.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Out of the blue, I see this.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Huge sign next to somebody's house. The sign says, my neighbor is a Karen. No way. I died laughing. I'm like, I have to know you are lying. Humongous, y'. All. They had some time on their hands. Listen to Reasonably Shady from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Poynter, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you.

[Mara Brock Akil]

100% of women go through menopause. It can be such a struggle for our quality of life. But even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything. I never used to forget things. They're concerned that one they have dementia and the other one is do I have adhd? There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood and also to have better day to day life.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Poynter on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now.

[Mara Brock Akil]

The moments that shape us often begin with a simple question. What do I want my life to look like now? Dr. Joy I'm Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford and on therapy for black girls we create space for honest conversations about identity, relationships, mental health and the choices that help us grow. As cybersecurity expert Camille Stewart Gloucester reminds us, we are in a divisive time.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Where our comments are weaponized against us. And so what we find is a.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Lot of black women are standing up.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

And speaking out because they feel the brunt of the pain.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Each week we explore the tools and insights that help you move with purpose, whether you're navigating something new or returning to yourself. If you're ready for thoughtful guidance and grounded support, this is the place for you. Listen to therapy for black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And he can allow for her fear in a moment like this. Keep in mind he's also aware of her worries about her children wearing a hoodie. So he understands and boys and he understands how, how assertive she is and he knows all that stuff about her. And that's a lot of my backstory when I'm writing those characters and how much and it's, and it, and it is irritating in parenting when you have different approaches at a very crucial moment. When now the kids can talk back, you know, being when they're younger, it's a little, you know, it's a little easier on the parenting. Different dynamics sometimes, but the stakes being high, right These, these children are about to be out of the house. Those things get a little bit, you know, we all react a little differently.

[DJ Envy]

Well talk about the importance of that. I think we missed that a lot. We've seen it a lot more with my parents. But I think in these days people don't, I don't think care to really respect a two parent household. It just seems like it's very loose and people forget about what it means to kids and how important that is.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Well, it's just another witness to the witnessing in a lot of ways. One of the things in my own parenting, I used to get frustrated about why the kids seem to act up a little bit more with me than they did with their father. And I was like. And I would complain to Salima all the time and, and then later I realized, wow, what a privilege it is that your children are the safest with you to act the you know what out you know, and you're just like, oh, I am the safest place in the world for them to be to just show they ass. And when you realize that honor, it's like, oh, okay, so then how can I, then how can I just be fortified, you know, in order to, to take those moments right when I realized then I feel like the father or the second parent is the first bridge to the outside world and how needed that role is because they kind of, you know, they, they rise up a little bit. They, you know, they, they act, they act a little bit better for dad. You know, sometimes in the case of our home, right? And so there's a bridge to that emotional maturity that they can move through. And then. Then you drop them off at somebody's house, and they come back, your kid is amazing. They did this, they did that. And you're like, also, you do know how to act. And that. That just rhythm. And then sometimes, you know, when I would be upset about things, I did have someone there to tell me, mara, you're fine. They love you. You would have. You're tripping a little bit. You're saying, just relax a little bit. But that level of care, that level of the dance between the parents and the child is actually beautiful. When you finally settle down into it and get into the roles, they're just roles, and it's okay to lean into them. And then there's sometimes that I get things that they don't get. I get not just the acting out. I get those. I get those intimate details. You know, I get those real. When they're really, really safe and they're telling you things, you're like, oh, shoot, I'm trying to remember it so I can. So I can go back and tell.

[DJ Envy]

Don't tell dad, though. Don't tell dad.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And some things you don't for a while, you know.

[DJ Envy]

Well, my wife will say, well, I'm gonna tell dad, but he's not gonna judge you, not gonna get in trouble or, you know, some things. But I have the most difficult time with really being understanding. Right. And the reason being is similar to what you just said. Like, my wife will yell at my kids every day. Right. For something small, I yell once a week.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[DJ Envy]

And it's the worst thing ever. And I'm like, but mom yells at.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You all the time.

[DJ Envy]

My mom doesn't yell like you. It's the same yell. But they feel like mom is that safe place. They can open up, they can be comfortable. But dad is the barrier to the outside world.

[Mara Brock Akil]

The barrier to the outside world. And to see that. And then on Keisha's side being, you know, having a single mother, right. How much you need a village. So she's very resourced. And, you know, the Edwards were more resourced financially. They got nannies and housekeepers and stuff. She's got the village. She's got cousins. She's got her grandfather, her dad. And then we. That was. That was purposeful. We revealed that the dad's been around. We just. He's not physically there all the time, and he's not carrying his complete share, but. But he is present your Friend is an ass.

[DJ Envy]

I just wanna say that your friend.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Over there is an ass.

[Mara Brock Akil]

He is an ass.

[DJ Envy]

Your friend is an ass.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I would just say that everybody is represented in this show. Okay.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

You get on my nerves.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

What's the most uncomfortable truth you had to face to write forever? Honestly.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Just, you know, you'd like to think that you're an amazing mother. Just my shortcomings as a mother. I think when I acknowledge that I think not only my children and then our community of children need more space. I had to look at where I was allowing that. I think that was uncomfortable. I think the other part was the depiction of getting into the nitty gritty around these, like, the sex tapes and then the betrayals that are happening with these children whose brains aren't fully defunctioned yet. And making bad choice. Wanted to make sure I protected Kesha by also allowing the truth to be told. You know what I'm saying? And the way it is experienced and it. It. It can be the outcome, you know, even. And it's. And he's. He made a horrible choice. I actually think Christian is not a. I don't. I don't. I know he. He messed up royally, right? But I also think that there's room for him. But I know that people are like, no, I was.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

So when he came back into this, not. I was. I was like, why did. Why is he backing around and all these things? And she's dealing with so much stuff right now.

[Mara Brock Akil]

We don't make. And that's the other thing too. I've seen grown women not make great decisions. You know what I'm saying? And we just put all this pressure. She's 16, you're young. And we're trying to negotiate a lot. One of the things that I was trying to arc out with the Keisha character is what would it be like to be invisible at a PWI for most of your life, not think, not be reflected back that you are beautiful. And then the first time you get attention from the baller, you know what I'm saying? That. Who is. How are we making those decisions? How are we making those choices? To be seen, to be loved, to be cared for. In a time when speaking about sexuality, especially that period and on young women are saying, hey, I have sexual urges. I mean, girls need love too. They're the ones leading sometimes the blowjob conversation. They're like, we can do. So you're in this world that some things are really okay to do. And just trying to negotiate all of these things, it's she made a. She. She made a bad choice. He made a bad choice. Everybody's trying to impress somebody, trying to do. These kids are managing a lot. And then the. The public record of it and the forever record of it is very hard to live with. So I think that faith. Your question was, what are some of the hardest things? Trying to be honest about the times and honest about why people are making the choices that they are making, even when you are. I know that. Not a lot of compassion for the Christian character, and I'm aware of that. And that was very. That was a very tough choice to make. Trying to make it as honest and grounded as possible. And so that it can be the thing in the middle of this love story that they actually move through. What's great to me about the Justin and Keisha is that they both come from love. They know it. It might be a little complicated. It may not be, you know, ideal in times, but they know they're loved. And what's beautiful is to watch two young people choose love from having been loved. And I think what's beautiful for us as a community, especially family, especially as parents, is our ability to witness our children's choices while they're still in our home. What is also happening in society, they're calling it late blooming. I think that's the new term. I mean, young people are not even getting to feel desired until they're like, damn near 30. Yeah. They're not even know. Like that reciprocal. Like, he like me, I like her.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Well, they gotta go outside. You gotta get off the social media for that.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I think there's. That's. There's that too. And then. And then. And that's the other layer we're putting on it. We go outside. But some of our kids and some, you know, that's. I wanted to talk about putting our kids in private white institutions. They go through most. There's a. There's an upside, right? You're trying to give them the best education, set them up for the best, you know, future. But the consequence a lot to that is they're not being seen that social. That social. They don't feel beautiful. They don't feel handsome. They don't feel important. There's nothing marrying them back oftentimes.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And that's what I feel like every day.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So that. That. So when you say they have to get outside, they are outside.

[DJ Envy]

Doesn't matter.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Keisha goes to that party in the stairs, and Justin tells her that she's beautiful or gorgeous, and she stops, and I'm Like. I mean, but to your point of what you just said, they're, like, the only black kids. So for her to hear that from him, it probably was a whole different type of, you're gorgeous or you're beautiful, whatever he had said to her. But I didn't even think about that point of it. I just thought it was just her first time interacting with a boy she liked.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah. You know. Yeah. There's not enough to sort of like. And it may be that maybe other kids like them, but maybe they're conditioned not to for race reasons or things of that nature. But I don't know that our kids. Sometimes they're outside, but they're not always connected. That's why we've spent a lot of time and money trying to get to the Vineyard. But that's two weeks. That's two weeks.

[DJ Envy]

But it's funny that you said it.

[Mara Brock Akil]

That's.

[DJ Envy]

You know, my daughter had the same problem, and I wanted her to go to hbcu because of that, I went to Hampton, and she didn't. She went to great schools, a lot of white kids, but nobody ever approached her.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[DJ Envy]

So she didn't feel beautiful. She didn't feel away. And then when she.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

She'd be happy that nobody there approached her.

[DJ Envy]

No. No.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

But dawn would be very proud.

[DJ Envy]

Nah. But the problem is she never felt that love.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Exactly.

[DJ Envy]

So she was a little depressed. She felt like she wasn't as beautiful as she is. And then when she finally. When she got. When she went to nyu, there's no campus, so she felt even worse. And then Covid hit. So now if you, you know, Manhattan. Manhattan is your campus. So there is no campus. So you're going to venues and clubs with everybody. And that made me nervous, because now she's not well equipped.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[DJ Envy]

And thank God she found somebody that did find it. But at first.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Black man, too.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes. Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

But at first she was.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

No, you have to say that, because y' all kids are going to very nice schools. So it might not always be a black man.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah. But, you know, it was very difficult. But I felt guilty about that for years because I was like, am I setting them up for failure? Am I setting them up for somebody not to love them? Because I went to a black school, I lived in a black neighborhood, so I'm seeing love all day long. And she didn't have that feeling. She didn't have those friends, which is probably why she's so close to me now. And I'm kind of like her best friend. Like, we Go out and we do things. Like right now she just texts me, dad, what time are you coming home? And she's 23 years old. But it's just that relationship. But it gave me a guilt as a parent.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It's funny when you ask me what I have to face, that's that. That's that I know we make choices for a certain reason. But you're thinking, ooh, what? You know, my kids are fine. But also that's what you move through when you're just trying to give them the world. Trying to give the best. The best. The best you can give them. And you realize, oops, I missed that part. So they are getting outside and in LA specifically, you know, these kids don't want to drive. Like I was at the DMV, like at 9am on my birthday. They are not. So I mean that it's what. It's. So how are they even seeing each other? And that goes back to where are the spaces? I was at the skating rink. I was at this. There was. I was at the mall. I was here. That's not happening that much anymore. And so I. That concerns me as well. So I'm hoping that some of these images on the show makes people want to connect. Get outside, be back outside. I think we need that.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I mean, but you know, the beauty of it is.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Let me get a Damn question, everybody. Mr.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Kill.

[Mara Brock Akil]

How the whole town know about the sex tape but Keisha Mother. Well, now it's funny. That's why we were in LA. That's why I did above the 10 and below the 10. Certain communities can know it and hold it and let you know it when they feel like it. But below the 10, she was able to keep that. She was able to keep that going. And that shows the disconnect of the village. There was no parent from those communities that thought to call Shelley. That is all. You know, that's the other thing I, I did make a commentary on that being a black parent. Sometimes in these schools you're. You're a parent, but are you really a part of the community? Sometimes. And now I'm not saying it's a hundred percent like that, but sometimes that's where things do part. You know, when, when there is judgment or, or maybe not. Maybe that's the right wrong. When there's not real community, when there's not real connection, when there's not real care that you're just seen as a part of this. You're like a sprinkle on top to our communities. And I say that in a generality, I think there's certainly some families who are figuring that out, but. So it's not, please don't come for me that we can't figure that out. But what I've also noticed in these communities is sometimes, I mean, in these worlds, because Shelly's from a different economic bracket, she doesn't live anywhere close to where these communities are. She's further away from the information. And it took dawn to find out to bring it back to her.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You know, black love has been so commodified lately. Right. Like, I feel like, you know, you see people doing the matching outfits on the gram, or, you know, they have black love weddings. But what makes forever feel real and not curated?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I would ask you, what.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

What did you feel that I actually saw myself. I saw me and my wife. You know, I saw my teenage daughter and her. Her friends. I saw how. I mean, it's. It's little simple things, like the conversations they was having at the cookout, like, arguing about, you know, Kanye.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

They smoking the weed, and then the kids come and they try to put it out, but, you know, they dancing to their own music. I just felt like that's the just real aesthetics. That's what real black love and black relationships look like. And even things like, you know, not arguing or trying not to argue in front of the kids, or even if you and your significant other disagree, not showing that in front of the child. It was times where wood would be like, yo, yeah, yeah. And then she would know, and then he would say what he said or vice versa. And I just. I just thought that was powerful.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah. Thank you. It's just me paying attention to my own life, the life around me, just paying attention to us. I think that's my job as a storyteller. You know, Nina Simone says I'm here to reflect the times is for me to look at us, look at each other and find all those. I know about your guilt because I have it in. I have my own. You know what I'm saying? I know about these things. I know about how beloved by a black man who can be very strong in his opinions, but it's not intimidating. He might feel intimidating to the world, but he's not intimidating to me.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know what I'm saying? I know there's love there. And also. And he knows I'm strong Black. Yep. A strong black woman. She's got an opinion. I'm gonna say something. I can say it without losing my softness.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I want your kids to bring home a black significant other.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Not because of racism, but because you want somebody that understands. You want somebody that's gonna understand you and what you go through and protect.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You and protect you and protect you. That's what I mean, Think at the core of parenting, we want to be. We wanna love our kids, and we want our kids loved, and we want them protected. We want them safe in the world. And so, you know, our history will tell us that. It just seems like the odds are better that way.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Keisha's story. Well, first, to bring home the black significant other when dawn, she's upset and Justin doesn't have his phone or whatever. But then at one point, she's open to him getting back into the world and having the phone or whatever. Because Wood Harris is like, you know, he met a girl, like, you know, ease up on him a little bit. When they had that conversation, when she finally sits down with him and she's trying to, like, get in his business about who he's dating and who the person is. As a mom, yourself, personally, what did you put into that conversation that you do with your own kids when you're trying to enter into their world and, like, make sure that even though they're at the white schools and all these things, the blackness is still there without being like, you gotta be black. Cause she was very, like, soft, but she was also. It was obvious she wanted him to be with a black girl.

[Mara Brock Akil]

We just talk real. You know, we've always just been honest with our kids from the jump from their. From their level of understanding. You know what I'm saying? Using their language for their entry into the conversation, you know, being very honest.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Why?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I mean, why? I want you to be with a black woman, you know, even though that could be challenging. Even though it's like, I can. Yeah, you can date whoever you want to date. This is going to be your life. But I'm going to tell you why and just. I just. Why? I think it's beautiful. I just think. I just give my opinion, but make room for theirs. I think that's what's important, is for me to make room for theirs. So I use that. I use. You know, it's funny because even the music. I think one of the things. Music is a big part of the show, and it's funny. In my car, I let them have the ox.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Why do you want to stay hip or.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I just want to know. I just want to witness them. I want to know what they're thinking about. So every, like, fourth, you Know how, like, if you get like a Spotify account and you don't, you do like the bass, you gotta get a commercial like every four songs. So in my car you get a lecture every four songs. And we used to debate about, okay, if I don't let you eat McDonald's all the time because of XYZ, I need you to understand what these lyrics are doing what you're eating. And so he's like, mom, it's just the beat. It's just the beat. Well, no, it's more than the beat. So we would talk about that. They push back. Cause we talked about misogyny and things like that. He was like, well, the women, some of the female rappers, they got. I said, yeah, misogyny is not particular to one group of people. Massage is misogyny. It's just like, you know, racism is racism. It's, it's. It's. So you get to talk to your kids and find out who they are and, and give them your point of view while the world gives them. Gives them their point of view. And so I think if you remain a trusted place, they are going to hear your voice. God willing, they will hear it before they get themselves in any kind of danger or, you know, that kind of thing. But I feel like just giving them my opinion. What emotional space and then showing my life, you know what I'm saying? Living my life, you know, like even, like with even like your career paths or your future path. Teaching them how I recognize that I'm a writer. I remind it. How did I know that I was a writer? How did I know what my path was? Teaching them those things. What it's going to feel like in your body, what it's going to look like, how you're going to act, you know, when it's going to take discipline. Where's the sacrifice in these ideas? You know what even like, you know, yes, mom and dad, we made a lot of money, but understand, we're built on a legacy. Let's go back to grandma and granddad and great grandparents and let me tell you where you came from. This is, you know, us owning more than one home is not new to this family. It happened over here. Understand that. Understand. So you got to give them history, opinion, knowledge, show it, be it. You know, even when we talk about dreams, I talk about my dreams. I still got dreams. And so. And dreams take resources. So are you going to hit that basketball train or not? Because I could use that money.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I want you to stay there for a second. Like, how is Your own evolution, spiritually, emotionally, as a mother. How did that influence the writing of forever?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, completely. So my writing styles, I tend to muse off of. I find a muse. I tell the truth through fiction. I'm a journalism major. I went to Northwestern. Shout out to Northwestern. I was going to shout out. I love Northwestern. One of the best choices I've ever made. I went to Medill. So a lot of my approach to a story, I start to lock in on. They'll be amused. And then I open up to see what. What is happening in the Zeitgeist. What is happening at strong sociology classes, like what's. Where. Where are we at as a people? That's how I figure out where the teenagers were, where we at today? So my children were my muse because that's what I was concerned about. So I came into this, this project just as a concerned mother. My guilt. Am I doing this right? Am I given enough space? Did we pick the right schools for them? Did we pick. Did we set up our life in a way that's really going to support them as you start to think about the more complexity parts of their life as. And life was changing fast because of technology as well. Right. So that's where I was at the same time that the Judy Blume opportunity came, and that's where my big bang happens. Wow. And that's how I put those. So I'm musing off of my own parenting. So, I mean, I started therapy because of parenting. I realized people are, you're an amazing mom. But I was like, I need to feel like a better mom. So let me start unpacking some of the things, all these sort of all the things that therapists take you through. And so I started doing that and realizing how I was parenting from a catastrophic place. Fear. Not just because of the times, but just all the things. And you realize, okay, I need to let this go in order to be a better mother. And I think the best way I can do that is offer it in my work and mirror myself and. And allow. And I think that's the power of storytelling. When you share your story or a testimony in church, it actually hits the hearts and souls and spirits of so many other people. But that's, That's. That's why sharing of the story is so important. It's not just about you. It's about the collective us. Right? And so bringing all those things to bear and having this amazing opportunity with the book to place all of these things, even in the translation of the book, I got to talk about what it's like to be black parents. You know, Judy got to talk about what it's like to be white parents of that time. But let me tell you what it's like to be black parents in America. I don't. It's probably not that different from, you know, other generations, but this is the. These are the details of our time, and this is what it looks like. And this is why we love our kids just as much as you love your kids. But they have it. They don't have as much freedom sometimes. And here's why. Black boys are just as vulnerable and actually are just as. I'm nervous mostly about black boys when it comes to sexuality, because before they can even say they love someone, they're considered enemy number one because of their. They're not little boys anymore. They are their bodies just getting bigger muscles on their body having a penis. They're suddenly like a threat. You have to talk about rape. You got to talk about that with black boys. Just your presence sometimes it may not be what you and the young woman consented to, but you are still in the time. If their parents say, we witnessed that in real time, these things are happening. So we've got to be. We could be real clear on consent. We got to be real clear on these sorts of things. Wanting to put that. Not just for wanting to not only protect my own sons, but all of these beautiful black boys that I get to, you know, be in community with, that I love. And I don't want to see hurt, and I don't want to see misunderstood and misjudged just by their physical presence, nothing more than that. And because they don't like to smile because, you know, they want to keep it real. I want them to see. I want them to see beyond that. I want to see black boy vulnerability. I want people to see them as their fuel that. That they actually can cry. And Michael joke. Michael Cooper jokes in Goodmore, I gotta cry again. I was like, yeah, you gotta cry again. He's hurt. He's more sensitive. I said, the character's sensitive. I said that. So. But yeah, because I just want to. Yeah, black boys cry, and they also ball. And they also go for their dreams and they want the girl and they get the grades. You know what I'm saying? They do all. They struggle. You know, they're frustrated. They're all of those things.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And then when they finally get what they want, it scares them for some reason, because he know. He didn't mean none of that stuff he said, I don't want to give it away, but he ain't mean none of that stuff on that last episode. I don't think he really want. I know he didn't want to walk away.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Why?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

No, I think he was just afraid of what he was. He was afraid of losing it. So he feels like letting it go would be less painful than just losing it.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know what I love about storytelling? Because it meets the viewer where they're at. You're going to see it that way, and someone's going to see that. Wow. He understood that he did not have the capacity to let go of her and choose himself, so he needed to choose himself. He would have just stayed up underneath her. And a lot of people do that. A lot of young people do that, because it feels good to be loved. It feels good for somebody to call you and want to see you and hug you and kiss you, and you can get lost in that, and you can lose time. I think he understood time is ticking, and there's. That's a reality to being young and making that leap in the. Especially in the. In a capitalistic democracy, you got to go. He understood that, and she helped him understand that.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It felt to me like he didn't. He wasn't chasing her by the end of the series, though. He was literally just chasing an identity that he hadn't felt before. Like that. Like that real blackness. Like the blackness that, you know, his. His mom and his dad wanted him to have and not lose by growing up the way he grew up. By the end of the show, he felt like, yo. Going to that prom with her and just being around her and her and her friends and hearing her say she want to go to Howard, it didn't feel like he was just. He was chasing her. He was chasing his blackness.

[Mara Brock Akil]

To me, I think. I think all can be true. All can be true. But also imagine you get to Howard, and all, you know is Keisha. He might just be all up underneath Keisha.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And that. And really, I mean, he. I'm sure he played those scenarios out. I know he did, because we do as a writing team. But. But what I. Again, what I love about storytelling is that it meets the viewer where they are. And this is what's beautiful about the show. And all the different conversations that are coming up, all the different opinions that are coming up. This is us. This is the best dinner party you can ever have. Absolutely. You're just. This is what we think, and everybody's got opinions, and what sticks to you is for you and what Sticks to you is for you. What irritates you is also for you. What irritates you as a writer. I just game, I give. It's like a lot of times people like, I don't like that. The I don't like that is just as important as the what you do like in writing. Because I say what sticks to you is yours is. That's your examination. That's. That's for you to examine. It's called your attention. You can't shake it. You can't let it go, good or bad. Look into that. Investigate there, dig there. I think that's what I think that's why my. I think that's why I keep getting hits after hits is because I like digging deeper into to us. And I think who doesn't want to be seen? And I think a lot of our stories, either they're missing or they've been distorted. Like you said the negative, like, they've been distorted. I think when you start to really see yourself, you know, you might want to tighten up here a little, tighten up there. But for the most part, like, I'm cute, I'm cute. I'm doing okay. I'm doing all right. I can lose five pounds, whatever, but for the most part, I'm doing all right. I think that those ideas of ourselves or what we're stuck on, that may be for you to examine you to look at. And I think that's why we need more storytellers out there.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I just got three more questions, if you got time.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

What emotional space does Forever occupy that none of your previous shows have?

[Mara Brock Akil]

What emotional space does it occupy that? I think the cross generational idea, you know, for the most part, I've written adult, Adult conversation, though, that I've had parents come into those stories. They're not. They're like drive bys in a lot of ways. I just think the complexity of family and the. And the generational connection and that I just really enjoyed that. I think also the, the scale emotionally, it allowed me to really scale us, and I enjoyed that. And it, you know, the kids say take up space. It allowed me to take up space for us and for myself.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And what did Judy Blume teach you about softness and how does that show up in your characters now?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Well, softness is details. I think, especially in the book Forever. Most of the book is about Katherine's internal feelings, thoughts. And to use that much time on the internal space is really a privilege, a luxury. Oftentimes most, most in our story time, we're more observed than we are explored, and I enjoyed being able to explore. And that's what Judy taught in her, in her writing, all the books. She's an internal writer, and then she allowed us. She gave as young people reading her books. You're validating these feelings inside that I don't necessarily show because I don't want to be embarrassed or I don't want to be judged or I don't want to be misunderstood. So kids are keeping a lot to themselves, and she was being honest on the page. So I believe I've been doing that in my body of work, and I got to do it again to give young people a view of themselves today like she gave us, you know, 50 years ago.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

My last question is forever about love you've had, love you've lost, or love you still believe in?

[Mara Brock Akil]

All the above. I believe in love. I believe in love. One of the things I'm really proud of with the ending, I know there's controversy about the ending, but what I love that Justin and Keisha showed us is how love endures. And it takes a shape, shifts. It can. Its dynamic can change, but love can stay present. And they showed us how to let go and keep love in that. In that ending. I think we could learn a lot from Justin and Keisha. You know, the question, you know, is someone, is this a forever love or the one you remember forever? And I would like to think that we, as we move through our lives as human beings, that when we choose to use that word, right, I loved you. That you. There's a present, that you were so present and so loving, that even if you don't last, the couple doesn't last. The love can last. It just. It might shift to. Wow. It might just shift to. We always just sort of text each other on each other's birthday. That you matter to me. You know, one of the fun things you realize when you're revisiting the work, especially as young people, oftentimes that's where our big dreaming happens. And those young loves that a lot of times the best part of you is packed in somebody else's memory of you. And so to have access back to those people actually is good for you to remember who you are when you lose your way, because you're gonna lose your way. And so love holds you there. So it is about the past, the present, and the future. And I think that love can take many different forms. You know, I have my young one plays baseball, and I've learned a lot about watching him sit in the stands play baseball. Long days, long games, long games. But what's beautiful about it is everybody who walks into that batter's box has a different fight. And so I often think about relationship. Right. Did you swing the bat? Did you have a. They call it. Did you have a good at bat? And sometimes you're at bat, you strike out, but you still had a good at bat. And I think that's what I think love is about. Are we having a good at bat? Are we swinging? Are we using our technique? Are we using all the knowledge we spent all week learning for this one to two times we get to walk in that batter's box and are we using it? Are we. Did we. You know, do we. Whatever the shoulders and the hips and all that kind of. Do we.

[DJ Envy]

Eyes on the ball.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Eyes on the ball. All those things. All those things you got to do with this ball coming at you 80, 90 miles an hour, that's love. And I think that. I would like to think that we can all approach it at a good at bat. Wow.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

I have one final question. Regina King and her directing.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes, thank you for asking. Yeah.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Because. Okay, so I was trying to look to see, like, what the conversation around it was online. But I remember when I found out that she was doing it, my first thought was, I wonder what their conversations were like. Like, what changes she made and what she brought to the screen. Because I heard you say a lot of it was about your life as a parent as well, too.

[Mara Brock Akil]

No, let me be very clear. I muse. I have a muse entry point. And then once I go into that entry point, then I become a journalist almost and look at the world around. And then that's how I sort of craft my stories. That said, what's beautiful about the art form is that the art form is a collaborative art form. I had to sit in that chair. Judy had to sit in that chair to write that book. I'd go look at the book. I had to sit in that chair and adapt that book. But one of the first phone calls you make after you have a script, you call your casting director, Kim Coleman. And then the second immediate is, who is going to direct? And I called Regina King and said, I think it's time for us to collaborate again. She first. Regina and I first worked together early in her directing career. She directed episodes of Being Mary Jane. And she went off to have a really wonderful directing career. And it was like, okay, I need you to help. Let's help me reset the tone. We both are mothers. We both love our sons. We. I needed Regina King, I need that chemistry. Her iconic performances as an actress, I would love them rooted in these characters, especially. Especially helping us launch this love story within these two young actors, anchoring them and their chemistry and everybody knowing where they are in this play, in this world. Then, of course, we built out the team and the decisions that we make together. Finding Combio, who is our dp, Suzuki, our production designer. We collaborate on the ideas of our costume. Minka and Tondra, these are the principal storytellers that we need to help tell our story. Just helping to make those decisions together. It was really lovely to help set the tone for it so that we can take off and run. I mean, Anthony Hemingway coming in, Timmy Banks, all of these major decisions. Our editors, Carolina and Naomi, and just Gary Gunn. Our composer, Kier Lehman. We put, like. It's almost like, speaking of baseball references, it's almost like you have your baseball cards out. You're like, we should bring this for this. I got this for this. And you kind of put it together. And it's fun to puzzle together. It's fun to sort of collaborate on that level. So she and my company, Story 27, hers royal ties, we've come together to help set a bar of excellence that we want the show to live in and thrive from.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And you know where season two is going to?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I do. I mean, I have ideas. I still have to go through the process. You know, part of what I think another thing that makes me successful is how I honor my partnerships. And I come into it respectfully and really to always garner that. That. To garner that energy back to me. But I have a concept of what I need to do. I won't share it until my partners are signed off on it. But my next steps are me coming into a meeting, ready to talk to Netflix around. Hey, this is where I see it, and this is where I think it should go. Hearing their feedback, their concerns, taking that in consideration, sometimes debating it for a while, but finding a way to communicate why I think it's the way it's a go. And if not, where is the compromise in that? And feeling good about the artistic flexibility that I have to craft story to figure that out. So I'm looking forward to that. And success, especially sometimes success can make people tighten up, too. That's right.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Stop playing with Mara. Okay? Mara had hit after hit in multiple decades.

[DJ Envy]

That's right.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Okay. Streaming services, the linear television. Give her what she wants.

[DJ Envy]

That's right.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Including the $50 million for girlfriends. And we need closure.

[Mara Brock Akil]

We need closure.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It's that Simple.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It's that simple. We've been talking about this. It's real. It's really that simple. And I'm excited. I think it's gonna come.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

I don't know.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I feel. I feel it, like, I don't know. Last time I was here, we talked about it. And I think what was beautiful in my journey at that time was for me to claim the value and understand the boundaries and understand what it is. I don't know. Just. I think. And also this success breeds more success. So I kind of feel. I don't know. I kind of feel like feeling. I think it's time.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And the success Girlfriends has had on Netflix.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, my God.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Like, they should see generational success. I watched that. I rewatched the whole thing with my mom, and I was like, this is so different.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But, you know, it's fine. Finding out people are putting Girlfriends on for their go to sleep. This is their. They call it their comfort TV show that they put on, and they just let it run. And some people let it run while they go to sleep. Blows my mind. Secondarily, my youngest son, I noticed that he will tell me, like, his friends are watching it and they think your mom is cool. Cause she does. Girlfriend. So I still got the street cred, y'.

[DJ Envy]

All.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I still got it. That is the game. I'm up and down the game all day. Up and down. But thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And I don't know if people know, but 911 of this year marks 25 years of girlfriend. 25 years of girlfriend.

[Mara Brock Akil]

This year.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

This year.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So we need to make that announcement, right? It's time. That would be the announcement to make, right?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It only makes sense. The first episode was 9 11, 2000.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Still look so good. Don't they look amazing? They all of them still look so good. I saw Tracy recently. We went to go see the Wiz. Went back on the screen. Did anybody see it on the screen? Oh, you guys, I've seen the Wiz over and over, you know, but the Wiz on big screen, I haven't seen that since I was a young girl. And Tracy and I went together to go see it, and we had a ball. And it was also really fun to watch her watch her mom. It was kind of like, oh, this is, like, very meta, right? And so that was amazing.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Then Jill and Golden, was that your birthday party?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah, Jill and Golden, my birthday party. So to your point, they look smashing to Persia, too.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It has to happen. It's going to happen. I. I know it's going to happen.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Because it's like the one black sitcom that we really did not get any closure on whatsoever. And there's so many loose ends. The tie up, you know, it's really.

[Mara Brock Akil]

It's not just loose ends. It's actually very relevant. I think it's a very karmic idea to have the show have a ending in a film. I just want to do a movie because of where we as a society have grown around the importance of relationships. And Tony and Joan breaking up, I think, has been the hardest thing on the audience. Even over Joan not getting her man. You know what I'm saying? And so I think that that's an interesting thing to re. To put back in the chat. So it's still relevant to this day. It's like, how does friendship come back together or. Or not come back together? Right. Can you still find that love of your life when you choose. You know what? I'm doing all right by myself. I'm doing. There's not. There's nothing wrong with me for not having had a husband. Like we. But that was a different conversation back at the time we were producing that show. So where we have progressed today, 25 years later, there's a different value in society around relationships and friendship and how important friendship is. And the, you know, the. The sustaining of it, the care of it, the beauty of it, the complexity of it. And I'm like, okay, look at us grow. And then. And then also this idea that you're not broken because you're not in partnership romantically. It's not to say that you don't want that, but understanding that there's a different. There's a different, you know, entry point into that. That it's not just being married to be married. You know, you want to be really partnered with your soulmate or your, you know, those. Was it twin flame? Which one it is? Whatever one it is. Whichever one's the hot one. That one.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Go ahead.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

I was gonna say. So Jonas, you can't say or anything, but Joan is actually. She does still want to be married and be with a person. Or is she just gonna do it by herself?

[Mara Brock Akil]

I'm just talking about where we left her.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Okay.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And I'm not gonna give. It's funny.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Cause I'm like. It sounds like she's gonna do it all by herself still.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I'm just talking about where we are in society again. Cause she would be shared with you guys very openly that my writing process. My writing process is like, who am I Musing on. And then you open up to see where society is, the journalist in me. And that's where we are. And that's all I'm sort of commenting on. And that where we left the show 25 years where society is. I feel the relevance of Girlfriends is almost matched to where our ending was.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Wow.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And so, and even we talked about their physical beauty. Even that you're saying even how, as a, you know, that's important, you know, and, and also how do we get there and what are we doing? Even my generation of women, which is also the generation of those women on Girlfriends, we've pioneered a whole new conversation around. We're openly going to talk about perimenopause and menopause. We're not going down like the previous generations being okie doked by the lies over there. So it's like those. There's so much to talk about, I think in a new, a new iteration of the ending that we're still holding to from 25 years ago. So it's interesting thing to hold on to in terms of like the details of what I would do. I'm not going to share that because that's my currency, you know, my ideas are my currency. My craftsmanship is how I make, you know, everybody got a dress, but it's how I make the dress.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know, and so I'm excited for that opportunity. I just, I don't know, energetically. I just feel it differently. This is because I'm on your show now. See, it's like, it's like even that is a beautiful omen. Right? Because we talked about it last time I was there and now I'm back and we talking about it again and. Yes, why not?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I mean, there's nothing guaranteed, but Girlfriends is a guaranteed hit. I don't care what nobody.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Oh, I know.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Global guarantee easily. I want to show you this. I posted this last week. Now that we're grown, which friend was the most toxic?

[Mara Brock Akil]

Why did you even leave?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Because we're grown now, so we have a different perception of all of them.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

What do you think, Charlie?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Todd. Todd. Todd had no business, you know, marrying Tony. Tony had no business married. But honestly, people always leave Lynn out. Lynn would be considered very toxic nowadays because she didn't have no boundaries. She didn't respect nobody's boundaries.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

I think she was the most at one with herself.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Maya was the only one that was unproblematic to me. But Lynn didn't respect anybody's boundaries. I have interesting theories about Joan And.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Tony, but let me ask you a question. Why did you use the word toxic?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Oh, I reposted. To me, that was just a conversation starter.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I know, but why did you repost that conversation starter?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I think. I think that they had traits that could be considered toxic.

[Mara Brock Akil]

You know what I want to say about that? What I love about the vulnerability and the complexity of the characters that later they can be analyzed.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yes.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And give some language about what they were brave enough to be. And what I look at between the generations is that when we. There's this generation's. We have more language to label things, to label it. I feel like those characters. And so the word toxic, I just sort of underscore, highlight and circle because that can be this blanket over them that doesn't deserve to be there. And that's what I'm saying is that we are complex now. I'm not saying that the complexity means you need to be friends with them for a lifetime. You may only complex for a while. I'm not saying you can't grow from them. I can't say you might. Like I said, you might not have a good at bat and strike out. But I don't know, I just. I want to be. I think it's important to examine but not hold the label.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

True.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Absolutely. And what. Because one of the things that Lynn represents to me and what she, I think represented to the generation that was actually beautiful is that at the time that was writing that series, all black women were presented that they knew exactly who they are, what they needed to be in order to be accepted. Lynn represented. She didn't know, but she was still loved.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Trying to figure it out, even in her sexual. Like she was. That was probably like the first time I ever saw a woman, black woman, on camera, that she was queer. But like we didn't know really what that was.

[Mara Brock Akil]

We didn't label it.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

I didn't know until she was staged. Yeah. I just thought Lynn was just like the girl who just did whatever she wanted to do. And everybod has that friend.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yes.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

And those friends, they have to be strong in themselves to a certain extent because you're so different than everybody else.

[Mara Brock Akil]

And if you think about Lynn and you put it in this new direction, she was break the no boundaries. She was actually, instead of it being toxic, she was actually being progressive. Most people would align queerness to progressive thought. Right. There was. She was challenging notions. Why one could say the way she lived her life was communal living, which is now a conversation for the future. I'm just saying how we look at things and being careful not to. I think it's beautiful to analyze because that's how we progress. But be careful not to then blanket everything with labels. Let's go back to forever. In 2018, we were saying ADHD 2025, we're saying neurodivergent language keeps changing as we understand ourselves. And I think that's. That's an interesting thing about the power of language. And one of the things I want us to be mindful of, especially in our community, is how quick we are to say, oh, he's toxic, she's toxic. Toxic, toxic, toxic. I would love to say, okay, maybe that aspect of that person needs some development, needs some growth. Dawn, DJ Envy, Mara, Dawn. We are in this, okay? Our guilt, fear. Maybe as parents, we need to release that, understand what it is and let it go. But just be careful not to keep blanketing us and our desire to grow and our desire to purge, you know, and, and, and, and get whole. So that's what I would say. I think what I love about the collection of those women, those characters, is as complicated or toxic as they were, even in that we deserve love. And they were trying to figure it out. And there are different ways to stay together in their friendship and in their respective relationships, you know, and, and that. How do we move forward together in the complexity of us.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Because Carrie and Samantha fell out. And nobody called them toxic when they fell out.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yes, they did.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

No, people, People is so toxic. You the first person I've ever heard say that what people feel like Carrie is, like, was wronged by Samantha, and Samantha is just this free friend who just eventually they still want to see him get back together as friends. People want Jill to never speak to Joan again.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

No, that's not true.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Yeah, people feel like they were bad.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Friends to each other, maybe, but that's not true. We definitely want them to get back together. That's part of the closure. We want to see if Jill and Joan become friends again. Tony and Joan, I'm sorry.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But do you guys. No, but I'm asking you guys, do you really. I know you do. Charlotte, you are very clear about wanting to see a movie.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You are.

[DJ Envy]

16 years he's been clear.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I want to also say, I'm always going to take a moment to, to say thank you, because you also. That means a lot to me as a storyteller. Like, wow, that, that level of impact on you and even the fact that you, me, and Judy Bloom are in the same thing. So I'm. Thank you.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Thank you.

[DJ Envy]

16 years.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But now you three, you want to. Are you going to go spend some money at the theater to go see a girlfriend walk to the theater? I'm trying to be in the Damn. I'm just doing a check. Yes, I agree.

[DJ Envy]

My wife is taking me there so fast.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It's unbelievable. It would be an event.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

I don't think you'd ever.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

There's not too many events anymore. It would be an event.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I think so, too. I think people would dress up. I think people go out to dinner.

[DJ Envy]

I want this nice dress. She's gonna have on a nice dress on a nice wig.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

They are. What?

[DJ Envy]

It's gonna be something.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Shoot.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

You asked on Sherri shepherd for her to open her phone. She knows somebody with $50 million. Ask these two.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah. Who you got in your phone? Let's call somebody. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I've been trying to save trees for a long time. I've been trying to call.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Let's call somebody. Yes.

[DJ Envy]

Thank you for joining us.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah. Thank you for having me.

[DJ Envy]

Is on Netflix now. We appreciate it. It's a long conversation. We appreciate it.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I loved it. I love what you said.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You've always been so intentional. And you're right. Girlfriend gave us a lot of. A lot of vocabulary.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

So what?

[Mara Brock Akil]

It gave us a lot.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I had another question, but it gave.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Us a lot to. It gave us a lot to have a conversation about. And I think that's really where everything is at, is communication. Have conversation, share ideas. We not all are going to agree, but I think we all get to know each other.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

But what do you want forever to give people permission to do? And that's my last question, I promise.

[Mara Brock Akil]

What do I want forever? Love. I want people to think more about love in every aspect of their life. And actually, even if we're older, that it's okay to want that. That first love kind of feeling. Like, what do we need to do to get back to that first love kind of feeling? I don't know. I just think it's. I think as a human, a spirit having a human experience, dancing with love all the time has got to be our top endeavor. So that's what I want.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Mara Brock, Akil J. Khan, the Legend. We appreciate you so much. We love you. We value you. Appreciate you and all your work.

[DJ Envy]

That's right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

Thank you. I really appreciate being here. Thank you. Breakfast Club.

[DJ Envy]

It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Wake that ass up early in the morning.

[Mara Brock Akil]

The Breakfast Club. This is an Iheart podcast guaranteed human.