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- [00:00]
Jacquese Thomas
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.
- [00:06]
Coca-Cola Advertiser
The best moments happen when you're with your people, laughing, vibing, just enjoying life. Coke is making those moments even sweeter. Share a Coke is back and it's all about sharing with the whole crew. Doesn't matter if it's your bestie or bro, there's a can with their name on it. So grab one for the squad and make some memories. But hurry because these Coca Cola limited edition bottles and cans will won't be here forever. Don't miss your chance to share a Coke with your favorite people.
- [00:36]
Talkspace Advertiser
This podcast is supported by Talkspace.
- [00:39]
Jacquese Thomas
When my husband came home from his military deployment, readjusting was hard for all of us. Thankfully, I found Talkspace.
- [00:47]
Talkspace Advertiser
Talkspace provides professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatric providers online. Military members, veterans and their dependents ages 13 and older can get fast access to providers, all from the privacy of their computers or smartphones.
- [01:01]
Jacquese Thomas
I just answered a few questions online and Talkspace matched me with a therapist. We meet when it's convenient for me and I can message her anytime. It was so easy to set up and they accept Tricare. Therapy was going so well, my husband and I started seeing a couples therapist through Talkspace too.
- [01:19]
Talkspace Advertiser
Talkspace works with most major insurers, including Tricare. Match with a licensed therapist today@talkspace.com military go to talkspace.com military to get started today. That's talkspace.com military I'm Soledad O' Brien.
- [01:36]
Soledad O'Brien
And on my new true crime podcast, Murder on the Towpath. I'm taking you back to 1964 to the cold case of artist Mary Pinchot Meyer. She had been shot twice in the head and in the back. It turns out Mary was connected to a very powerful man.
- [01:55]
John F. Kennedy
I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor promote aggression.
- [01:59]
Soledad O'Brien
John F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on the towpath with Soledad O' Brien on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremarchi, hosts of Criminalia and as they uncover curious cases from the past. The legend of the Highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrars, known as the wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s. Her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death. Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season. Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:49]
Jacquese Thomas
My name is Jacquese Thomas. And you're listening to Black Lit, a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers. When we talk about early African American literature, it's easy to focus on books, the first novels, the first published poets, etc. However, we now understand that the reality is much, much broader. Black literature in early America existed in letters, newspapers, and even songs. So you have to look beyond the obvious. And in these spaces, we find some of the most profound stories of resilience, connection, and self definition. It's the writings passed from hand to hand, stories whispered from one to another. And sometimes it's a friendship written in ink, held onto for decades, surviving all odds. One such story can be told in the letters between Phillis Wheatley and Obert Hanner. Now, Phyllis wrote many, many letters to different people, but these letters, written over the course of six years, are very special. Their correspondence offers us a rare glimpse into friendship, faith, and an intellectual exchange between two black women who were enslaved at the height of the Revolutionary War.
- [04:26]
Unknown Scholar
I would never make a claim about a first African American anything in this period because there's a lot of, you know, oftentimes our ideas of, oh, what is the first novel to be written or the first story are? Those are in flux and change often. One thing I would say for black literature in general is that we can't understand black literature if we focus just on books. We have to look to other print media. So much literature that's published in newspapers, for example, and we're thinking about even songs and broadsides. There's a lot of other places where African American literature happens that aren't books. Given how much the landscape for early African American literature has changed and shifted in the last couple of decades, the classes that I teach now just wouldn't be possible for undergrad me because I wouldn't have had the things to do them. I wouldn't have had access to the same texts. I wouldn't have had access to the same resources. Every, you know, things are just different and changing all the time. And sometimes there's a new rediscovery of a piece that shifts how we teach and what we teach it with. So those are super, super exciting. And one of the things that really kind of draws me to this field is that possibility. There's always possibility in the black archive.
- [05:52]
Jacquese Thomas
What is interesting and beautiful about these letters between these two black women, between these two slaves to be exact, is that they share something beyond the ideas of survivor mode. They were building a sisterhood while the world was burning, literally around them, the war wasn't some distant, unfathomable conflict. It was smoldering right outside of their front doors, impossible to ignore. But they, through all of this chaos, Phyllis and Uber kept writing, kept sharing, both very aware of the world around them, the community that they were building, the care for each other and the importance of communicating.
- [06:45]
John F. Kennedy
The closeness of their relationship. I think that really comes out of the letters. And when you contrast them with other letters she wrote, it's not that she doesn't say what she thinks in her letters. It's just that there's another dimension to that relationship that we don't get to see elsewhere. And it should suggest to us that she is not alone, that she has a. What I call it, a cohort, a community. That the idea that she could only have done this if she had been isolated, which was kind of standard in the literature for a long time, that she could only have been as studious and as much of a. As conversant with Anglo American literary culture if she had not been part of a enslaved and African community. I think that's nonsense. Like, why can't we imagine that she was code switching? Why can't we imagine that she had a whole range of audiences and interlocutors? And that's one of the things I want to convey and how sensitive she is to who she's talking about and dealing with. We're talking about someone who has had a cosmopolitan experience. We have no idea what her life is like before she's 8. But many people who are in the slave trade have experience a lot of locations and are moved around a lot before they end up where they end up. And she's highly likely of those people, even though she's only about 8 years old when she gets to Boston. And Boston is a place where that's 10 to 15% African when she gets there. And there's particularly been an upswing of importation. So there are a lot of enslaved people her age, and a lot of those people are from different parts of West Africa. And she knows that there are a lot of different ways to connect to people. And so rather than see her as having converted to a dominant culture, I see her as someone who has realized that culture is multiple and that there are different languages, and she's adept at learning them. So I argue that the neoclassical literature is particularly important to her. And that's not instead of the Christian stuff, it's in addition to and in relationship to it. So if we think of those two things as languages that she's completely able to riff on so quickly. Why would we think that she doesn't have others that necessarily come out in the poetry, but that we might get glimpses of in letters or we might get glimpses of from knowing who she's talking to and where she was. So the political languages are others for me. So what does this have to do with Obor? Isn't it interesting that they talk about their. You get glimpses into their mutual friends. And it's certainly clear that Phyllis had traveled to Newport probably several times and that and her first poem is published in the newspaper there. So there's some relationship between Newport and Bost and religious folks and others there. It's clear that she knows some of the people that Obor knows and that they're aware that there are people who travel between Newport and Boston and Connecticut. So she's part of these wider black networks which are connected to the Wheatley's networks and ministers and other folks who are referred to who carry the letters. Mr. Babcock's servant Ebenezer Pemberton. People who were able to point to as being who they were.
- [10:13]
Unknown Scholar
I definitely like to think about them as being in community. But even more than that, like what really interests me is the kind of there's a tension between the public and private. On the one hand, these letters between Uber Tanner and Phillis Wheatley have this air of intimacy because it's in the genre of the letter. But then there's also this kind of public, performative part of it because there wasn't an expectation that this correspondence would just stay between two people. And so then I'm thinking like, so what were the real conversations like between Luther Tanner and Phyllis Lilly? Like, that's what I want to know. So anyway, that's kind of what I think about the relationship between the two. That there's some part of it that we got to think about as an element of performativity and then there's some part of it that's more intimate and like I. I can't know which is which.
- [11:09]
The letters are an interesting glimpse into American colonial landscape through the eyes of a friendship between two black women who are also enslaved at times. Phillis Wheatley, who's based in Boston, and Uber Tanner who is based in Newport. And what we find by way of their letters is that at various points they are made refugees. Boston is under siege, so Wheatley has to leave in 1775. Newport will be under siege by the end of 1776 and Ubertiano has to leave Newport. So I think the Revolutionary War is a big deal to them, especially since they are living in places where the Revolutionary War is happening. It's not an abstract idea, it's not a theoretical problem. It's a real life problem. I would also say that what is important is the friendship as they articulate it, because there are a number of stories, a number of answers to questions that we just can't get because they already know one another. So questions like how do they mean I have no idea? And any of the other kind of back ground questions. The letters don't provide answers to that. But what the letters do do is kind of dig into their friendship.
- [12:34]
Jacquese Thomas
There is a theory that they met on the passage coming over, which would have solidified their connection. John Wheatley was a merchant by trade. The two families could have crossed paths at some point, perhaps in Newport or any other number of possibilities. The mystery on how their friendship was initially formed will remain just that, a mystery. But the sentiment and the words she chose to send to Uber can be felt and are meaningful. Considering there was a war going on and all of the other circumstances, there was definitely a sense of to write with sincerity and intention. On July 19, 1772, Wheatley Dear Uber.
- [13:30]
Phillis Wheatley
I have received your kind letter and I am glad to hear of your welfare. I have been indisposed for some time past, but through divine goodness I am somewhat better at present. I hope the correspondence between us will continue, which may have the happy effect of improving our mutual friendship. Till we meet in the region of consummate blessedness, let us endeavor by the assistance of divine grace to live the life, and we shall die the death of the righteous. May this be our happy case. I am, dear friend, your affectionate sister.
- [14:15]
Jacquese Thomas
This phrase draws from Numbers 23:10 in the Bible, where Balaam expresses a desire to die the death of the righteous. Wheatley uses this reference to emphasize her aspiration for a virtuous life leading to a blessed afterlife. She expresses her appreciation for Tanner's friendship and emphasizes the importance of maintaining their correspondence to strengthen their bond. She reflects on her recent illness and conveys her hope that with divine assistance they will lead righteous lives together and ultimately attain eternal happiness. And we shall die the death of the righteous. This letter highlights Wheatley's deep spirituality, her relationship with the Bible, and the value she placed on enduring friendships. They wrote to hold on to each other, to carve out a space where their voices mattered, and we know that it mattered because Uber cherished this exchange. She held on to it for nearly half a century because they were important to her. And perhaps she also knew how important they would be for others in the future. For us.
- [15:37]
Unknown Scholar
The Letters go from 1772 to 1779, and Obertanna holds on to the letters until the early 1830s, until right before she. She dies. And then she gives them to her pastor. And I think. I think that that's an important kind of testament to the relationship that she has with Wheatley and also her own sense of her legacy and wanting to make sure that Wheatley's story is told alongside her own. So she hands off the letters to her pastor's wife, Katherine eats Beecher, who 30 years later, and I think it's 18, 1863, gives them to her nephew in law, who then gives them to Charles Dean, who works at the Massachusetts Historical Society, which is why we can read the letters today.
- [16:31]
Jacquese Thomas
This was more than just a friendship, more than even sisterhood. This was legacy building. Wheatley wasn't just writing to connect. She was playing chess in a world that tried to keep her off the board. She sent poems to people in power not just because she believed in them, but because she wanted to be seen. She knew the value of her work. She knew that her words had the strength of immortality. She knew she was worthy and she very well knew the game well.
- [17:13]
Unknown Scholar
Why did she choose to write Washington? She could have created poetry and she could have, you know, wrote to other people. Why did she choose to write the secretary of North America? Who was this dude England sent over to be like the person responsible for all of North America? Why did she use George Whitefield's rhetoric in 1770 to write one of her most popular poems and then specifically take that poem and send it to the Countess of Huntington, who is Selena Hastings, in order to kind of get a financial beneficiary and to get someone. She had rhetorical goals, aims and desires and strategy. So a lot of us think when she writes these people and you know, some of these people are slave owners and she's not saying anything about slavery. She's not. It's all about like Christianity. I think that a lot of it was her trying to. To get herself in front of people who she felt had some power. Right. And she kind of knew, was thinking about how power is going to be played out, whether or not England was in control of North America or whether or not the Americans would be in control of North America. Whomever, right. She wanted to put herself in front of those people, perhaps that she would be the example, right. You know, an African person willing to be part of the colonial American society, part of the American society, post revolution, in one vein, but also too, in this sense that, you know, she felt that she had something to say not necessarily for those people at that particular time, but for us. Right. And one of the ways that we think about if African American rhetorical practices have been in part, uniquely signified to or connected to abolitionism. Right. One of the most important tools of abolitionism is that you don't write simply for yourself to be. Be free, but for your, the next generation of people to live in a more prosperous society. So my thinking too, is that she's trying to define a moral authority that would far exceed her temporal time on earth. She wanted to leave a lasting rhetorical and written record to how she tried to. How she labored, what her vocation was. And so I think that she, like so many Africans in this particular period, so many African Americans in this particular period, begin to kind of think about ways in which they can produce written records.
- [19:36]
In fact, Phillis Wheatley only published one volume of poetry, but she tried to publish the second one. But, you know, there was a little thing like the Revolutionary War that kind of, you know. And so when she circulated an advertisement for that second volume, she listed the table of contents. And in her table of contents, it was a series of letters that she was including as part of her second volume. So that tells me that when Phillis Wheatley was doing her letter correspondence, there was some part of it where she was thinking these letters might be for public consumption. And so then that makes me think, how does one do that? Like, how do you write a letter and balance the private and the public?
- [20:21]
Jacquese Thomas
Not by choice, but she always had two audiences in mind. One, the white people who might publish her, and two, the black people who would truly understand. And so, like every great poet, she wrote with layered text, with words that would carry the truth for those who needed it while still being respectable.
- [20:45]
Unknown Scholar
African American people have at least, have always had to be speaking to at least two audiences, right? Trying to think about their identity, themselves, Especially if other black people would be reading it. They're thinking about that particular audience, but they're also concerning themselves with their survivor.
- [21:05]
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- [22:04]
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- [23:04]
Jacquese Thomas
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- [23:15]
Soledad O'Brien
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- [23:17]
Jacquese Thomas
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- [23:28]
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- [23:29]
Jacquese Thomas
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- [23:33]
Soledad O'Brien
Points cap apply I'm Soledad O' Brien, and on my podcast Murder on the Towpath, I'm taking you back to the 1960s. Mary Pinchot Meyer was a painter who lived in Georgetown in Washington, D.C. every day she took a daily walk along a tow path near the E and O Canal. So when she was killed in a wealthy neighborhood, she had been shot twice in the head and in the back, behind the heart. The police arrived in a heartbeat. Within 40 minutes, a man named Raymond Crump Jr. Was arrested. He was found nearby, soaking wet. And he was black. Only one woman dared defend him. Civil rights lawyer Dovey Roundtree. Join me as we unravel this story with a crazy twist, because what most people didn't know is that Mary was connected to a very powerful man.
- [24:29]
John F. Kennedy
I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression.
- [24:34]
Soledad O'Brien
John F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on the towpath with Soledad O' Brien on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [24:49]
Jacquese Thomas
You are listening to Black Lit. Many say that the Bible was used to keep black folks in chains. But Phyllis flipped it back on them. She didn't swallow the version of Christianity that said, know your place. She read deeper, looked harder, and found her own faith, a faith that called slavery what it was.
- [25:16]
Unknown Scholar
And in 1774, for instance, she wrote a letter to Sampson Occum, who is a Native American Presbyterian minister who also goes to London, prior to Wheatley, and he'd written about the treatment of enslaved Africans. And she writes to him, a letter and says, thank you for your advocacy for black people. And she says that everything I write, and of course I'm paraphrasing and summarizing here, but she says everything I write I do not for their hurt, but to convince them of the strange absurdity of their actions and conducts, which is diametrically opposite.
- [25:48]
Jacquese Thomas
In this letter, Wheatley eloquently critiques the hypocrisy of those who advocate for liberty while oppressing others. Drawing parallels between the plight of enslaved Africans and the Israelites in Egypt, she writes.
- [26:07]
Phillis Wheatley
For in every human breast God has implanted a principle which we call love of freedom. It is impatient of oppression and pants for deliverance. And by the leave of our modern Egyptians, I will assert that the same principle lives in us. God grants deliverance in his own way and time and get him honor upon all those whose avarice impels them to countenance and help forward the calamities of their fellow creatures. This I desire not for their hurt, but to convince them of the strange absurdity of their conduct, whose words and actions are so diametrically opposite. How well the cry for liberty and the reverse disposition of their exercise of oppressive power over others. Agree. I humbly think it does not require require the penetration of philosopher to determine.
- [27:19]
Unknown Scholar
So therefore she's very mindful that people are using Christianity, using faith, to say that African people should be enslaved, that they need to be controlled. The violent xyz. And she's saying that I don't see this in the literature that I'm reading about God, I don't see this. Right. And thus she's revising that narrative about how she's assessing her faith. And she goes on, I think with that particular perspective which I think would make her feel that she's the one who's in the superior position, that she's the one who has been authored to offer an education and to moralize, if you will, people who are less learned on the tenets of Christianity.
- [27:59]
John F. Kennedy
Isn't it interesting that she gets political in that wonderful letter which talks about the hypocrisy of the modern Egyptians? And who is she talking about? Is she talking about the British? Who are the modern Egyptians? Are they the British? Are they the Americans? Are they both like that? We only have it because somebody chose to take it out of her letter and put it in the newspapers where it gets reprinted. But that shows us that we have, we have no idea. She may have written dozens or hundreds of letters that we don't have. Right. Or said different things to different people. She's trying things out. She doesn't know what's going to happen next, who's going to win the war and all these things. And so this is the window into her practice all the way through from the beginning, all the way to the end. And so often we've wanted to say, oh, she's, she throws in her lot with the patriots and things don't work out for her and it's tragic or she has these kinds of ideas. This is what she thinks about white people or this is what she thinks about the patriots or this is what she thinks about Christianity. Like as if she's not someone who's like saying different things to different people. And it's evolving depending on what she thinks is possible. And she doesn't know what's going to happen next. It's because we know so little that the chronology is and are missing so much and the life is so relatively short. Right. That the chronology is important and it's actually the paying attention to that where we can see her making decisions and choosing to do certain things at certain times in certain situations. And for me that proves both that how deliberate she is and how creative she is, but also how political she is.
- [29:25]
Jacquese Thomas
And Wheatley wasn't alone in this fight. Black writers, preachers and thinkers were flipping the script everywhere, challenging these so called men of God at every turn.
- [29:37]
Unknown Scholar
That's why the 19th century looks like it looked and slavery would come to an end in the 1860s in part because pro slavery Advocates would be the members of Congress and all these other people, but they would continuously use religion right, as the tool that suggests that African people were enslaved. But you have so many African American people and some, I guess, you know, Anglo American people writing at the time as well, would, you know, challenge against that and say that, you know, the way that they see faith, Christianity or Islam, because Islam was very important in early America too. The way that they are seeing these faiths, kind of the way that they read them would suggest that slavery shouldn't be a part of God's children.
- [30:15]
Jacquese Thomas
Wheatley wasn't begging for approval. She was teaching and holding up a mirror, making them see their own contradictions. And. And it is in that act that she reclaimed her power. The letters feel deeply personal, but they weren't meant to be hidden. Back then, letters weren't private like text messages are today. They passed through hands and were copied and were sometimes even published. Phyllis knew this. She expected her words to last.
- [30:48]
Unknown Scholar
And I think as of right now, what makes this friendship important? Is it currently the only documented by way of letters, friendship between two black women who were also enslaved?
- [31:09]
Jacquese Thomas
Uber didn't just hold on to Phyllis's letters. She made sure that they survived so that we could read them today. That's the thing about black joy. It persists Even in the 18th century, when the world told them that they were nothing. Phyllis and Uber built something undeniable. They wrote themselves into history, and history, for once, held on to them. Special thanks to all of the guests on today's episode in order that you heard their voices. Bridget Filder, David Walshicer Cassie Smith Tara A. Bynum Halima Shabazz Reading the Letters by Phyllis Wheatley and Don Holmes Black lit is a Black Effect Original series in partnership with I Heart Media is written and created by myself, Jacques Thomas and executive producer produced alongside Dolly S. Bishop. Chanel Collins is the director of production, Head of Talent, Nicole Spence, writer Producer Jason Torres. Our researcher and producer is Jabari Davis and the mix and sound design is by the humble Duane Crawford. Gratitude is an action, so I have to give praise to those who took the time out to write a review. Please keep sharing and we will promise to bring more writers and greater episodes to you. Also, if you're looking to become a writer or in search of a supportive writing community, join me for a free creative writing session on my website, blackwritersroom.com blkwritersroom.com or hit me up directly for more details. Underscore T H A T S P E A C E that's peace.
- [33:11]
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- [33:42]
Unknown Scholar
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- [34:11]
Soledad O'Brien
I'm Soledad o' Brien and on my new true crime podcast, Murder on the Tow Path, I'm taking you back to 1964 to the cold case of artist Mary Pinchot Meyer. She had been shot twice in the head and in the back. It turns out Mary was connected to a very powerful man.
- [34:31]
John F. Kennedy
I pledge you that we shall neither commit nor provoke aggression.
- [34:36]
Soledad O'Brien
John F. Kennedy. Listen to Murder on the towpath with Soledad O' Brien on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Explore the winding halls of historical true crime with Holly Fry and Maria Tremarchi, hosts of Criminalia, as they uncover curious cases from the past. The legend of the Highwayman suggests men dominated the field, but tell that to Lady Catherine Ferrars, known as the wicked lady who terrorized England in the mid-1600s. Her legend persists nearly 400 years after her death. Highwaymen are in the hot seat this season. Find more crime and cocktails on Criminalia. Listen to criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [35:24]
Jacquese Thomas
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.