INTERVIEW: Alex Joseph Grayson & Renni Magee Talk 'Outsiders,' Broadway, Vegas, ROC Nation + More

Summary

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The Breakfast Club Interview: Alex Joseph Grayson & Rennie Anthony McGee on 'The Outsiders,' Broadway, Vegas, and ROC Nation

Podcast: The Breakfast Club (iHeartPodcasts)
Air Date: October 23, 2025
Hosts: DJ Envy, Charlamagne Tha God, Lauren LaRosa (guest hosting), Jess Hilarious (absent)
Guests: Alex Joseph Grayson (Dallas Winston in The Outsiders), Rennie Anthony McGee (Steve in The Outsiders)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers around the impact and evolution of Broadway through the lens of The Outsiders musical. Actors Alex Joseph Grayson and Rennie Anthony McGee discuss their experiences as Black leads in a traditionally white show, the demands of Broadway, industry challenges, access and representation, and innovation in theatrical spaces. The hosts dig into themes of race, class, mental health, industry business, and what’s needed for Broadway's future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking Barriers: Black Leads in The Outsiders

[03:08-04:56]

• Charlamagne asks how Alex and Rennie ended up cast in The Outsiders, noting its historically white casting.
• Rennie explains the intentionality behind casting people of color:

  "We were working with this idea of different races. You have the Socias and the Greasers, and in the '60s, Black people didn’t have much wealth … We were trying to show this story about those less fortunate going against those who have it all, but maybe are less fortunate in other ways." ([03:29])

• Alex describes auditioning for a traditionally white role (Dally from Matt Dillon in the film):

  "I did think there was a trend where I was being called in to play these roles that were traditionally not black men…especially in a post-Hamilton world…” ([04:56])

• The conversation reflects a shifting climate in Broadway toward more inclusive casting and storytelling.

2. Physical & Emotional Toll of Broadway Performance

[06:47-11:28]

• DJ Envy probes their pre-show rituals, recognizing the physical and vocal needs.
• Rennie shares:

  "Above all else ... I'm a huge prayer. During performances where I forgot to pray before, people have gotten hurt." ([07:10])
  "My mom ... read there was a study that said people who go on stage, they have the same amount of adrenaline as soldiers going into battle." ([08:01])

• Charlamagne: "So are you re-traumatizing yourself having to do that fight scene every play?" ([08:30])
• Rennie and Alex describe the emotional labor of acting, triggering past traumas to fulfill their roles.
• Alex:

  “A lot of what we do … there’s a lot of psychological stuff that we have to draw on … trauma, being able to experience emotional hardships, highs and lows, and then sort of pull those things back up. And it’s not always a positive experience.” ([08:44])

• Both emphasize rigorous self-care: stretching, grounding, apologizing to their bodies post-show.

3. Race, Class, and Safety — On and Off Stage

[11:28-13:53]

• Charlamagne raises the unique tension their identities create:

  “You’re black. So, yeah, the show Outsiders is, to me, largely about class … but then you go to real life. So you go from class to race.” ([11:32])

• Alex and Rennie explore the elusive concept of "safety" as Black actors and as people:

  "What is safety? ... You are all that you’ve ever been." (Rennie, [12:06])
  “No, I ... have not felt safe … I do the show … and then I leave and I see that on tv, on social media.” (Rennie, [13:09])

• Their performances can be emotionally strenuous as they draw from personal/lived experiences for authenticity.

4. Wellness, Mental Health & Industry Support for Performers

[13:53-16:04]

• Hosts ask if Broadway provides resources for mental health or physical support.
• Alex critiques the industry's priorities:

  “The investment, number one, should be in the health and safety of the people that are keeping the business alive ... The focus is in the wrong place.” ([14:17])
  “We have one PT person on site. I don’t think that’s enough ... there should be a mental health professional ... an acting coach on site ... But that doesn’t have to do with ticket sales.” ([15:20])

• Discussion highlights the lack of institutional support; much of the responsibility falls on the actors themselves.

5. The ROC Nation Casino Proposal & Missed Opportunities

[16:04-17:33]

• Charlamagne and DJ Envy discuss ROC Nation’s failed Times Square casino/broadway initiative, which included child care, mental health, and debt relief for performers.
• Broadway actors were largely unaware:

  “We only heard about Casino. Yeah, we only heard about ... But that’s why they were out there ... they literally had a whole setup for wellness health.” ([16:44]-[17:08])

• The conversation critiques systemic “suck it up” culture and emphasizes what Broadway could learn from other industries.

6. Audience Demographics, Accessibility & Broadway’s Future

[21:43-29:15]

• Charlamagne: “I feel like the Broadway audience isn’t getting younger … at some point, I just don’t feel like the audience is growing.” ([21:43])
• Rennie ties this to economic accessibility and generational wealth:

  "The element that always affects everyone ... Money, money, money. ... the people who have the money are those who have more experience, you know, the people who are older..." ([22:08])

• The high ticket cost keeps younger and less affluent audiences away, and even top-grossing shows like Othello may lack nominations or critical acknowledgment.
• Alex calls for broader expansion:

  “What is Broadway? ... Can Broadway be more than these few theaters in the Times Square area? ... Once that ownership is sort of spread out, we can start to think a little bit more freely about how we get people into these spaces.” ([23:43])

7. Broadway vs. Vegas; Innovation Needed

[25:52-27:37]

• The panel compares the energy and evolution of Broadway with Vegas, where legendary acts bring in new demographics.
• Everyone agrees Broadway should not be limited to Times Square.

  "Let's get a Broadway in Atlanta." (Rennie, [26:56])
  “…it has like a spiritual sort of like chokehold that it has on people. But … what is it that relinquishes that hold so that people can find that same sort of joy and be willing to support work that is not in those spaces?" (Alex, [27:05])

8. Commercialization, IP, and Risk-Taking on Broadway

[27:38-29:15]

• Alex critiques Broadway’s addiction to revivals/IP rather than original, risky art:

  "It's not necessarily cutting edge ... it's all about revivals ... movies ... IP ... The people with money only want to invest in these sure things." ([27:38])

• Charlamagne: "Hamilton ... is hip hop. It's black, it's brown ... and yet that risk paid off. More producers need to take risks.” ([28:38])
• They lament high-quality but under-supported new works like Ain’t No Mo’ (Jordan Cooper).

9. Culture, Accessibility, and Audience Experience

[29:33-32:09]

• Rennie reminisces about Broadway as a special event, with formalwear and ceremony. Now, accessibility is more challenging for youth and non-affluent viewers.

  “When you start bringing in these IPs, that is, oh, kids are going to love this, but kids can't afford to see it ... How discounted are the tickets?” ([29:33])

• School outreach via matinees is highlighted as essential for audience development.
• Increasingly, actors must do theater, film, and TV for survival, believing theater is hardest to automate or replace with AI.

10. Proposed Solutions: Storytelling, Access, and Content

[34:36-36:41]

• Alex pitches reality/documentary-style shows behind the scenes of Broadway (draws parallel to Netflix’s Cheer), building emotional connection and stardom:

  “Every Broadway show should have a fully produced series about the audition process, about the cuts ... you allow people to build a relationship ... then they can go see the people in real life." ([34:52]-[35:47])

• Payment plans for tickets, audience-building outside New York, and leveraging streaming to get new eyes on theater are discussed.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On representation:

  "In a post-Hamilton world in which we're giving these American stories to people that are not necessarily being considered, like, American in appearance." — Alex Joseph Grayson ([04:56])

• On emotional demands:

  "When you're acting, your body does not know the difference between real and fake. So when you bring yourself to that point, you're there." — Rennie Anthony McGee ([07:10])

• On institutional issues:

  “I wish that Broadway would learn from professional sports leagues. The investment ... should be in the health and safety of the people that are keeping the business alive.” — Alex Joseph Grayson ([14:17])

• On innovation:

  "Broadway is the height of commercial theater. It's not the greatest form of live performance ... it's got the loudest megaphone as far as advertising budget." — Alex Joseph Grayson ([27:38])

• On risk and the future:

  "You have to take risks and you have to try new things to gain the trust and love of audiences." — Alex Joseph Grayson ([28:48])

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Important Timestamps

• 03:08-04:56 — Guests introduce themselves, discuss non-traditional casting in The Outsiders.
• 06:47-11:28 — The physical and emotional grind of Broadway; actors' personal rituals and recovery.
• 13:53-16:04 — Discussion of lacking mental health/professional support for Broadway actors.
• 16:04-17:33 — The ROC Nation/Broadway casino proposal with wellness and community support.
• 21:43-25:22 — Who is the Broadway audience? Why isn’t it younger or more diverse?
• 25:52-27:37 — Ideas for expanding “Broadway” beyond Times Square; inviting new audiences.
• 29:33-32:09 — Money, accessibility, and cultural shifts in Broadway attendance and programming.
• 34:36-36:41 — Using behind-the-scenes media to build audience engagement and accessibility.

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Conclusion & Socials

Charlamagne, DJ Envy, and Lauren LaRosa thank Alex and Rennie, encourage everyone to see The Outsiders on Broadway, and commend the guests for their work and insight.

Find them on Instagram:

• Rennie Anthony McGee: @renni_anthony ([38:52])
• Alex Joseph Grayson: @alexjgsings ([38:58])

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Summary Takeaway:
This episode serves as a candid, wide-ranging look at Broadway’s present and possible future through the eyes of two dynamic Black performers. The conversation is rich with personal testimony, critical industry analysis, and forward-thinking solutions—a must-listen (or read!) for theater lovers, artists, and advocates for equity in the arts.

Transcript

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

This is an I Heart podcast.

[DJ Envy]

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[Johnny Knoxville]

Hello, America's sweetheart. Johnny Knoxville here. I want to tell you about my new true crime podcast, Crimeless Hillbilly Heist from Smartless Media, Campside Media and big money players. It's a wild tale about a gang of high functioning nitwits who somehow pulled off America's third largest cash heist.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Kind of like Robin Hood, except for the part where he steals from the rich and gives to the poor.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I'm not that generous.

[Johnny Knoxville]

It's a damn near inspiring true story for anyone out there who's ever shot for the moon, then just totally muffed up the landing.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

They stole $17 million and had not bought a ticket to help him escape.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

So we're sitting like, oh God, what do we do?

[DJ Envy]

What do we do?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That was dumb.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

People, do not follow my example.

[Johnny Knoxville]

Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Narrator (Graves County / Ads)]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Podcast Narrator (Graves County / Ads)]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Podcast Narrator (Hunting for Answers)]

Short on time, but big on true crime. On a recent episode of the podcast Hunting for Answers, I highlighted the story of 19 year old Lachey Dungey. But she never knocked on that door. She never made it inside. And that text message would be the last time anyone would ever hear from her. Listen to Hunting for Answers from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Every day I wake up.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Wake your ass up.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

The Breakfast Club. Yep, it's the world's most dangerous morning show. The Breakfast Club. Charlemagne the God. Just hilarious. DJ Envy. Envy's not here, but Lauren LaRosa is, and we got some special guests in the building, man. I went to go see this play a couple of weeks ago, the Outsiders. How y' all brothers doing? Introduce yourselves, man.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

I'm Alex Joseph Grayson. I play Dallas Winston in the Outsiders on Broadway.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Good morning, Alex.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

I'm Rennie Anthony McGee. I play Steve in the Outsiders.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Man. How did y' all end up in the Outsiders? Cause the Outsiders been historically white for as long as I can remember.

[DJ Envy]

When I'm ready, they were.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It was. How'd y' all end up. How'd y' all end up in the play?

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

You developed this thing.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, so.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Yeah. So, you know, in the theater world, we do these things called workshops before we try to get an out of town tryout, which is just sometimes it's not even out of town. It could be in New York, you know, off Broadway. So I was doing MJ on Broadway. It was my first Broadway show. I was a swing, which means I learned multiple roles. I got this audition. Choreographers I had worked with before, I was praying for it. The choreographers I had worked with before, I was praying for it. And when we did it, we were working through. And they were working with this idea of different races. Right. Cause you have the socias and the greasers. So socioeconomically, you know, in the 60s, with the exception of a small percentage, black people didn't have much wealth because this country did not allow us to have that. So we were trying to show this story about those with who are less fortunate going against those who have it all, but maybe are less fortunate in other ways. Cause, you know, some of these, we don't know what goes on behind rich families doors. We do not. No matter what the race is. But that's kind of how we came in here, you know?

[DJ Envy]

Okay.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Alex kind of slid in later.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Actually, believe it or not, I auditioned for an early version of the Outsiders before the pandemic. I wanna say it was like 2018. They called me in and I got an email from my talent agent. It was for the Outsiders, for Dall? E, actually.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Wow.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

And I was like, this is the Matt Dillon role in the movie. This is interesting that they're calling me in for this. But it was at a period of time in which I noticed I had been getting a lot of auditions for characters. These are nonfiction. They're fictional stories. Sorry. But I did think there was a trend where I was being called in to play these roles that were traditionally not black men. And I don't Know if that was a reflection of something that was happening on Broadway and in theater where there was a movement to sort of change some of the faces that were telling the story, especially in a post Hamilton world in which we're giving these American stories to people that are not necessarily being considered, like, American in appearance. So, you know, I gave it a stab and nothing really happened in 2018 with that show. It didn't move forward for me. So I had actually stopped thinking about it for a while until about seven months ago now. It's been like six or seven months that I've been with the show. And it came around again. I auditioned for the show before it came to Broadway, but it didn't work out and I let it go. And luckily it came around for me and now I'm a part of it. And it's a really great group of people that I work with. The show is very exciting. It's very physically demanding. It's very dangerous, which I'm learning firsthand. So I have to take really good care of my body and my health and every day take a breath. And everybody's got different practices. I know, Rennie, I see you praying off on the side a lot. It's like we just have to really still ourselves and care for our instruments every time we walk on that stage.

[DJ Envy]

Man, I was just about to go into that asking all y' all rituals or y' all practices, because listen, that Broadway, you need your voice and you need to be able to project. What exercises do you guys have to do? What can't you do? And what do you have to do, Kegels, to get. No, well, you know, nevermind, go ahead.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

You know, I will say, I mean, above all else, as Alex mentioned, I'm a huge prayer. I have noticed during the performances where I forgot to pray before. People have gotten heard now, for me, that's the connection already. You know, I pray for a speedy show. I pray for an efficient show, an enlightened show, a fulfilling show, because oftentimes we're coming to the theater with all of the things that are happening in this world, you know, and we have to get on that stage and tell this story, which is a sad story. So now we have to live in that. And, you know, one of the things they always talk about is when you're acting, your body does not know the difference between real and fake. So when you bring yourself to that point, you're there.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Even if you subconsciously know, like that sixth sense, oh, this is not really, really happening, your body Doesn't. You know, my mom read, you know, I love you, Pamela McGee, you the bomb. My mom, she read there was a study that said people who go on stage, they have the same amount of adrenaline as soldiers going into battle. Yes, yes. And then, you know, it's not too hard to believe because, you know, a lot of people are more afraid of public speaking than dying.

[DJ Envy]

Right.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

So it makes sense.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

So are you re. Traumatizing yourself having to do that fight.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Scene every play in so many words? Yes, yes, yes. I mean, that's a very. That's. That's. I think there's more nuance than that, but.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Yeah, Yeah, I would say, you know, being. Being an actor, like, people get into it for all sorts of reasons. I know for me personally, I feel like I'm. I'm very much in. In my purpose. I'm. I. I am here to be. To be a conduit for. For storytelling. I'm here to. To. To bring messages to people. And I have been completely ushered into this. This place that I am in my life. It's not something that I. That I sought out. I've had so many people that have been guiding me to the place that I'm at today. It's not. It's not a choice at all by. By any means. And. And it's my fifth Broadway show, and it's not something that I try to really make sense of. It's just where I am. And a lot of what we do, when it gets down to the sort of technical aspect, just as an actor, there's a lot of psychological stuff that we have to draw on. A lot of past experiences, trauma, being able to experience emotional hardships, highs and lows, and then sort of like pull those things back up. And it's not always a positive experience. So I think to recover from that, we have to be really, really invested in and caring for ourselves like that. Like, I spend so much time recovering. Like, that's, That's. That's my free time. My free time is about recovery, rest, just placing hands on. On my. My body, just stretching. Every. Every moment is about making sure that my. My body feels safe, reminding myself that I'm safe, asking myself for permission to do all of this again. Just like Renny said, you know, we. We get out there and we fight. And, you know, I have to then go. Like, I know in the show, I sort of pound my chest every night. I bang on my chest twice in this one specific number, and then I leave stage and I place a hand right on my Heart. And I literally say I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I did this and that. It's okay. That was just a story that we were telling. And we're trading our time because it's a job. This is a job at the end of the day. And it's. It's a gift to people. It brings people joy, but it's also. It's also a job. And we're. We're showing up because we have to. We have to work.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

We don't have.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

We don't have a choice.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

It's interesting though, right, because you're. You're. You're black.

[DJ Envy]

So.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yeah, the show outside is, to me, is largely about class, but it's still the same, you know, obstacles, hurdles, you know, prejudices black people would experience. So you say you're safe when you exit the row, but then you go to real life.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Sure.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

So you go from class to race, which is, you know.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

So do you ever truly feel safe? I don't.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Ooh. You know. Yeah, it's. Yeah. So, like. And then what is the definition of safety?

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Come on now. What is safety? What is safety?

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

What is safety?

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

You know, we talk about drawing on life experiences, you know, and some actors, they say they don't. I don't. I've never necessarily believed that, you know. Yes. When you get in that moment, it's you and your scene partners, but you have. You are all that you've ever been, right?

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Yeah.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

That's never gonna not be there. And, like, for me, you know, we talk about this. This idea of de rolling. You get off the stage and you get out of the role. Some people, it's much easier than others. Me, I go home, I put on a movie. I love movies. A movie makes me. I'm thinking about this person's issues now gone. And, you know, we talk about the prep that happens before a show, but so much of that prep actually happens after the show. Warming down. Warming down your voice. So then when you wake up, you don't feel as hoarse. You see what I'm saying? You can only do so much before a show, but you can do so much after a show. You know, and to answer your question, no, I. You know, recently, within these past few weeks, on a personal level, I have not felt safe. You know, I do the show.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

I.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Bring myself to this place. Cause I don't even wanna say tears, but oftentimes it's tears. You know, I'm on stage and I'm seeing another black brethren die in front of me. And Then another one, and then I leave. And I see that on tv, on social media. And, you know, the one thing that helps me is I am very much. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna go in prayer. I'm gonna journal. I'm gonna watch some movies, I'm gonna play some video games, and then I'm gonna do what I need of the day. You know, when this show is over, I got another job to do, whether it's a TV show, a film, another Broadway show. And then we have a whole other set of problems that that piece of work is going to bring, right? But also a whole other set of joyous moments that that's gonna bring.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

Are there resources that Broadway provides you then in those circumstances? Like, are there, like. Cause I know y' all got, like, coaches, right, and people that are helping you with live performance and the effects and all that stuff, but is there someone there that's like, let me check in on y' all real quick.

[DJ Envy]

That girl was good. I like that.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Yeah. I mean, so. So I will say this. And this is just in case you have any young listeners that are like.

[Podcast Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

I want to do.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

I want to do Broadway or anybody of any. Any age, because it's not. It's not just young people that work on Broadway. I will say it is a. It is a business first and foremost. And I say this is. This is the downside. And I wish that Broadway would learn from professional sports leagues. The investment, number one, should be in the health and safety of the people that are keeping the business alive. The performers, the athletes. And I think this unfortunate thing about commercial theater is all the attention is how do we get butts in seats, how do we sell these tickets?

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

And.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

And not necessarily in keeping the performers healthy. And that's why Broadway sort of has the issues that it has. I think the focus is in the wrong place. So there. There is an investment. We have a PT person that's there. We have one PT person on site. I don't think that's enough.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

Pt, as in physical.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

A physical. Physical therapist. Physical therapist. I'm so sorry. Yeah. So we have one PT person. I think there should probably be, like, three or four. There should be a mental health professional, like a sports psychologist person on site. I think there should be an acting coach on site. But that doesn't have to do with ticket sales. And I think that that's just a core misunderstanding, because the people that are making the decisions about this thing don't actually have the ability or skill set to do the thing that Keeps the. The business running.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

They.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

They provide. They provide the real estate.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

And the venue. That. And that's pretty much it. So I think I just want the.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Record to show, too. If Roc Nation would have got the casino in Times Square. They wanted to do all of that for Broadway performance. Just want to throw that out there.

[DJ Envy]

That's what I love about Wendell Pierce. Because Wendell Pierce has a same mentality. Has the same mentality, but he also. Doesn't he have an organization or a foundation that's trying to develop programs where you guys can have that. Where Broadway actors and actresses can actually have those resources, Even down to some of the women? Because y' all work six days a week, seven days. Sometimes y' all don't have a break. So, like, for childcare.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

And that's why Wendell was partnered with Roc Nation Legacy Theater. They were gonna do the childcare services, the debt relief, the mental health services.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Oh, you knew that it's called.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

No, we didn't. We only heard about Casino. Yeah, we only heard about.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

But that's why they were out there. Like, that's what made me realize the suck it up culture in Broadway. When I started looking into the casino and why y'. All. Not y' all specifically, but why people were so upset. And I realized that you guys looked at it like, okay, now we're gonna have even more pressure to work because we gotta compete with this casino. But they literally had a whole setup for wellness health.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Yes.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

Pouring money into you guys.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Roc Nation had a plan for Broadway. They had Broadway tickets for underserved communities. It was like a $20 million that they was going to allocate to purchase tickets for in boroughs like the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens. They had Broadway worker support, which was going to be In. Which was going to be invested in the child care services, debt relief, mental health services. Yes.

[DJ Envy]

Damn, man.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

They never told y' all any of that.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

I mean, we were not Broadway actors were not petitioning to stop the casino. But somebody definitely paid to put a big no casino sign. So.

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[Podcast Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

In the new podcast Hell in Heaven, two young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over, but one will end up dead, the other tried for murder. Not once people went wild, not Twice stunned, but three times. John and Anne Bender are rich and attractive, and they're devoted to each other. They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular circular home high on the top of a hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble, and our couple retreat from reality.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

They lose it.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

They actually lose it.

[DJ Envy]

They sort of went nuts.

[Podcast Narrator (Hell in Heaven)]

Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

You know, this is about. This is about territory. You know, this is. This is turf. You know that.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

So I want to ask about that, though, right? Because I'm a. I love Broadway. I've been going to. Since I've been living in New York in the 06, me and my wife, I take my kids, I go to a lot of Broadway plays, but I feel like the Broadway audience isn't getting younger. Like, I feel like it's still a lot of older people that go, and how many times are you going to go see Outsiders? How many times are you going to go see Hamilton? How many times can you go see the Lion King? Like, at some point, I just don't feel like the audience is growing. I could be wrong.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Well, it's also, I think that, you know, the element that always affects everyone in this country and others. Money, money, money. You know? You know, you have a. You have a. There was a show on Broadway this year that set a record, and it is the highest grossing play on Broadway ever. We won't go into the names, but I'm sure we know which one that was. And, you know, it had two very famous film actors in it, you know, a very famous director, and.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Why can't we say the name.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

Isn't that Othello?

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Okay, yeah, it was Othello. It was Othello, you know, but, you know, it set a record. It is, I think, the highest grossing play on Broadway ever. There were no nominations for that show as far as I remember. You know, and I think it's the element of who has the money to pay to go. Like you said, you are taking who? Your wife and your kids. Your kids aren't taking. They don't have the money. You do. Right. So I, I would naturally think that as we continue to move in this into the future, you know, it's true. The people who have the money are the people who have more experience, you know, the people who are older, you know, So I, I. And again, the whole game is. It's a business.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

You know, we, we are like, again, why, you know, I'm sitting here like, why didn't we know that? All I knew about was the casino. That was probably done on purpose.

[DJ Envy]

Like, you said, no nominations, right?

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, it was the Tonys. That it was.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Yeah. I think Broadway is ripe for expansion. Especially, like, with, you know, all the AI stuff. Just what's happening with Terminator on. On screen work right now. I think, you know, studios want to save money on movie production, TV show production. I think this is a really, really great time for live theater to really have a renaissance. But it requires expansion. And then, you know, it's like, what is Broadway? People love Broadway. What is. What is Broadway? Is it. Is it a known brand that is only. Is it only these theaters, or can Broadway be more than just these few theaters in the Times Square area? Can it be more venues? Like, people do theater all over the place? And why does it have to take place in these few buildings here? And I think that there's a branding problem and there's an accessibility issue that's been going on for years, and it's not really that hard. But there are a few people that have ownership of what that is, and I think that's what needs to expand. Because once that ownership is sort of spread out a little bit, I think we can start to think a little bit more freely about how we get people into these spaces.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I agree with you. Because my biggest fear is that in the next three to five years, there's not gonna be any real investments in that Times Square area. And if you see what Times Square is going now, like, Times Square ain't a place that you really want to be like, you know, I mean, there's nothing there. It don't feel the safest. It's nothing new and sexy. Drawing you there like you're going for a specific reason. But the most people there are tourists. In the next three to five years, if there's no new investments in the Times Square, what draw is there other than Broadway? But how is that going to also impact Broadway?

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

I mean, I always say, like, right now, with where things are, what is truly the difference between Broadway and Vegas? A Vegas show, right? What. What is. What was it in the 80s and 90s that made Broadway, Broadway and Vegas, Vegas?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I can tell you what I think is drawing people to Vegas now. All of the. The legacy acts from our generation that are actually going there and doing residencies, right? So it's the Ushers. You know, Jeezy got one. That new edition has been there.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

I got exactly.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's it right there.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

That's my. That's mine. That's mine.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That's it.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

So there has to be just something new injected into that area.

[DJ Envy]

But you know what? You just made me think of that, Alex. You just. I. Because I. I really didn't pay attention to that. Broadway is only New York City, Times Square.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

I literally did not even think about that being that way. It can be in la, should be in la. It can be somewhere down south. It can be like, why is it only subjected to.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Let's get a Broadway in Atlanta.

[DJ Envy]

Times Square. Atlanta.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

That would be amazing.

[DJ Envy]

Yes.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

You know.

[DJ Envy]

You know, hell, yeah. You know, I just didn't think of that until you said that, so.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

And it has. I mean, what, what, like Broadway, you know what. Whatever it is, there's a. There's like a spiritual sort of like chokehold that it has on people. But you know, what. What is it that relinquishes that hold so that people can find that same sort of joy and be willing to support work that is not in those. In those spaces. Theater art should be. Art is for everyone. Right?

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Broadway is the height of commercial theater. It's not the greatest form of live performance that is happening, but it's got the loudest megaphone as far as advertising budget to get the message about, come see our show. But it's not necessarily cutting edge all the time. It's not necessarily making people really, really think. Especially now. It's all about revivals. It's all about movies. Yeah. It's. It's all about ip. But that's the same thing. That's. That's the big thing with the commercial space. Like, the people with money only want to invest in these sure things. And what's the biggest hit show right now? It's none of those things. It's Hamilton, an original show, which is. I mean, like, the story is not original, but, like, it is. That idea is wholly original, which is.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Crazy because it feels like it's all the things that Broadway does not. Like. I'm just speaking from the outside looking in. Yeah. Hamilton is hip hop. It's black, it's brown. It's like, we don't want that element over here. Yeah.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

You have to take risks. You have to take risks and you have to try new things to. To gain the. The trust and love of audiences like you. You have to go there. So, like, you can't be successful if you are playing it safe. And you're, you know, you're just trying to rehash These old things that doesn't really work on paper. But. But how do you convince people that hold all the cards to take these risks?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Money. And that's why I gave you another play that I thought generated a lot of great excitement on Broadway was Ain't no More from Jordan Cooper. And it's a phenomenal, phenomenal show.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

But people didn't show up to watch it like they should have.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Right?

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Generational talent. Yeah.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Oh, yeah.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Generational talent.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

I still think it's that element of. Again, like, when my parents were kids, you had to dress up to go to Broadway. It was an event, just like going on an airplane. You had to dress up to go on an airplane nowadays. And no disrespect, because I'm a firm believer in come as you are, but when you go and you see a line standing outside Broadway, you know, one fourth of people are dressed up, that's usually the older generation. And then you got all the kids, you know, When I was a kid, I always thought Broadway is basically like going to church, you know, like, there was no such thing as formal wear. It was church clothes. You know what I'm saying? So I think nowadays, too, like I said, with the money aspect, which has always been a thing, and they're trying to make it more accessible. But when you start bringing in these IPs, that is, oh, kids are going to love this, but kids can't afford to see it, you know? So then what? You have, like, one or two days a year where it's like, discounted tickets. How discounted are the tickets? You know what I'm saying? And, like, we're really cool. In about a week or so, we're gonna start what we call our school schedule. So now we're gonna have the schools come in during the matinees. Those are the best days. Because then you see, like, all the theater, the crazy theater, techno stuff you saw, the kids are like, whoa, you know? You know, and it gives us energy, you know. But I don't know what the fix is, because it's been like this for so long.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

You know, and it's the same idea, you know, we, as actors, we're always asking for things. And I understand also where, like, the producers come from, because it's like, it's not like you're just gonna stop asking for things when we give it to you. So there's that element, too. I don't know what the fix is. I just know, like, I think the goal for us is to keep bodies that look like us to keep bringing them in, whether it is to do theater, to work in theater, to see theater, you know? And again, like I said, our lives aren't just theater. You know, we could walk away from the show tomorrow, and he could end up doing a movie, I could end up doing a TV show. You know, we have to do everything nowadays, you know. But I do believe firmly, theater will be the last thing to be taken over by AI if that ends up being a thing. Because you can't replicate real bodies in a real space. Not yet. You just can't. You know, this isn't Westworld, you know, this is in Terminator. You can't do that yet. And so I think at the end of the day, it's going to be brainstorming, how do we make it more accessible? How do we convince the people who are making the most money from this to make it more accessible?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I mean, for me, man, I think what you said is so true. When you look at something like Hamilton, right? If I was a producer in that space, I'd be looking for more of those. So you know what's after the Hamiltons? It's adding people like you to outsiders. But it's also, there ain't no mores. But it's also the mj, the musicals. Like, if you see that audience coming there and being energized by it and people liking this style of hell. Alicia Keys, Hell's Kitchen. Give me more of that. Give me more of that. Give me more of a reason to want to be there.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

I'm so sorry for you because as I said earlier, also, shout out to Miles Frost. I was a part of the original cast. I was a swing, and him and I were pretty good friends. And it was interesting because I'm a Michael Jackson. Stan. I had another show that I could have gone on tour to do, and because I said I would never swing, but I said, first Broadway show and it's Michael Jackson. I'm taking it. Those first few shows, the audiences were so low, there was not a lot of people in seats. We weren't doing publicity and things like that. And, you know, obviously there was some questionable things out at the time about Michael. After the Tony Awards, all of a sudden, our houses are filled, you know, And I remember sitting there just with the faith of, like, being on Broadway for the first time, the excitement of it. People would be like, man, I'm worried, man. I'm like, why are you worried? This is Michael Jackson. This is Michael Jackson. The reason they're not in seats is because we haven't put it out there yet, but as soon as we put it out there. And you know what? That's exactly what happens.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Because he's big in Europe, bro.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

He's huge everywhere, you know? And Michael Jones, no disrespect to anyone's opinions, but the bottom line is Michael is the goat. And that is why his show, I said even if it was bad, would make money because it's Michael Jackson. It just so happened to be brilliant. You know, our show, I personally believe it is brilliant. There is nothing like what happens in the Outsiders on stage in America right now. There's nothing like it. But that's the issue. We need to. How do we get people to see it who don't have the money to see it? You know, And I think that's what Broadway should be about. It should be about, you know, like, when the kids come and they see the show and then they're sitting. Standing outside and, you know, we walk outside. It's like we're celebrities to them. You know, I'm like. And that may be their first Broadway show. I don't know what the. I don't know what the secret is. I don't know what it is. I don't know what the solution is, but.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Well, I will say that, you know that. That Dallas Cowboys cheerleader show that was on Netflix, Documentary, cowboy fan. They did a Netflix series that was sort of like the process of, like, making the team and their tryouts and everything.

[Johnny Knoxville]

Ooh.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Every Broadway show. Every Broadway show should have a fully produced series about the audition process, about the cuts. Get. Allow people. Audiences at home that don't. They don't even have to pay for the price of a ticket. They could just be paying for their subscriptions. I don't know why Broadway tickets are not on a payment plan. Klarna. Or afterpay. Come on, Come on. But you'd have to leave your tower to, like, see what's happening on earth to find out that information. But you. You create a series like that, you allow people to build a relationship. We have so many things like this. We have American Idol. We have all these. We have all of these sort of elimination shows. People are familiar with that. You. You produce those series. You. You spend the money.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

You.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

You get to people at home, you allow them to build a relationship with. With everybody, and then they can go see the people in real life when.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

They go see the show.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

And you've. You've created stars.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

That people have a personal relationship with. And then maybe if you can afford the ticket. You. You make your trip to New York and you see it. But I mean, they've kind of done that. They did that with Legally Blonde and.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Grease back in the day.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

Remember a cheer on Netflix?

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Yes. Yeah, they did that. Yes.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

Kind of worked out a little crazy for some of them, but they turned into, like, really big stars, like, outside of cheering and cheerleading and people who don't care about cheerleading got into their world and wanted to go see them. Cheers. Buying tickets to their competition.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

I know that my daughter's a competitive cheerleading.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

That K Pop thing, that was K Pop Demon Hunter. Yeah, the dance academy. It was like, there's the group Cat's Eye. Yes, there's that group. And they had that document. They had, like a whole competition show, you know, but no, if that would be so smart if they were.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

People want to know what happens behind. People want to know what happens behind the scenes.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do.

[DJ Envy]

That's genius, though. If somebody can play that together and pull that off, hell, yeah, I think that would make a difference. Well, listen, man, I gotta see Outsiders. I'm the only one.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

No, I haven't seen it yet. I read the book. I had to in school. That's why when you said the kids day, I was like, that's cool that y' all bring them because we want to read the book.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

They get to see y'.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

All.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

But, yeah, I haven't seen it yet. I'm coming.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

And again, a testament to, you know, like I said, you know, I. My mother and my father, we believe that Michael was going to be successful. It is, because it's still on Broadway, you know, and when I did Outsiders, you know, I had to leave mj. And I know my. You know, my dad was very much about. Man, you know, in the future, you may not be able to do that if you don't have the funds to do this. But I was so glad I made that decision because Outsiders, the book, like you said, so many kids have read it. I was like, again, even if the show is bad, it will still make some money because the demographic is there. That. And these producers know that. They know that, which is why they fund something like the Outsiders, you know, as opposed to Hamilton, which back in the day probably would have been a risk, you know? Cause it's like, now you want to do this old American story that the majority of these people are white, but you gonna cast them as people of color. I could only imagine being in the room waiting for the producers, seeing what.

[DJ Envy]

They say about that.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

You Know what I'm saying?

[DJ Envy]

But whatever. We want to admit it, whether people want to admit it. And everybody like a little black.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

They do.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

They do.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Listen, man, thank y' all for joining us. Make sure y' all go out there and check the Outsiders out on Broadway. It's every day, right?

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Monday through Friday, Monday's our day off, so. Yeah, Tuesday through Sunday, eight shows a week, man.

[DJ Envy]

Jesus.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Y' all gotta beat up white people eight times a week. Yeah, I won't give. What? Give up the play for it, but.

[DJ Envy]

Just damn, don't give it up. But, man, hats off. I'm so proud of y' all brothers. Y' all do this. Y' all do this six days a week. That is hard. I know it's hard. And I know y' all barely have a life. It's fun, though, and I love that.

[Podcast Interviewer/Host]

It is fun, too.

[DJ Envy]

But it ain't really much that y' all do outside of this, right? Yeah. But it's great that you love what you do, and I'm proud of you. I can't wait to see y' all.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

On the stage and tell them where to follow y'.

[DJ Envy]

All.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Enyanthony on Instagram. That's R E N N. I underscore Anthony at.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

AlexJG sings on Instagram. Lex a l e X J G S I N G.G.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

S Alex J.G.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Sings on Instagram.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You go to Velveeta, Teach.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

That's right.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

All right.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Ready, Alex? Thank you. It's the Breakfast Club. Every day I wake up, wake your ass up. The Breakfast Club. Y' all finished or y' all done?

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

We have no stores.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

That means no small talk.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Crazy weather we're having. No, it's not.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Podcast Narrator (Graves County / Ads)]

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[Johnny Knoxville]

See mintmobile.com Johnny Knoxville here. Check out Crimeless Hillbilly Heist. My new true crime podcasts from Smartless Media, Campside Media, and big money players. It's the true story of the almost perfect crime and the nimrods who almost pulled it off. It was kind of like the perfect.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Storm in a sewer.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

That was dumb.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

Do not Follow my example.

[Johnny Knoxville]

Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Podcast Narrator (Graves County / Ads)]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Alex Joseph Grayson]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Podcast Narrator (Graves County / Ads)]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Podcast Narrator (Hunting for Answers)]

Short on time, but big on true crime. On a recent episode of the podcast Hunting for Answers, I highlighted the story of 19 year old Lachey Dungy. But she never knocked on that door. She never made it inside. And that text message would be the last time anyone would ever hear from her. Listen to Hunting for Answers from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rennie Anthony McGee]

This is an iHeart podcast.