The Breakfast Club Interview: Alex Joseph Grayson & Rennie Anthony McGee on 'The Outsiders,' Broadway, Vegas, and ROC Nation

Podcast: The Breakfast Club (iHeartPodcasts)
Air Date: October 23, 2025
Hosts: DJ Envy, Charlamagne Tha God, Lauren LaRosa (guest hosting), Jess Hilarious (absent)
Guests: Alex Joseph Grayson (Dallas Winston in The Outsiders), Rennie Anthony McGee (Steve in The Outsiders)

Episode Overview

This episode centers around the impact and evolution of Broadway through the lens of The Outsiders musical. Actors Alex Joseph Grayson and Rennie Anthony McGee discuss their experiences as Black leads in a traditionally white show, the demands of Broadway, industry challenges, access and representation, and innovation in theatrical spaces. The hosts dig into themes of race, class, mental health, industry business, and what’s needed for Broadway's future.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking Barriers: Black Leads in The Outsiders

[03:08-04:56]

Charlamagne asks how Alex and Rennie ended up cast in The Outsiders, noting its historically white casting.
Rennie explains the intentionality behind casting people of color:

"We were working with this idea of different races. You have the Socias and the Greasers, and in the '60s, Black people didn’t have much wealth … We were trying to show this story about those less fortunate going against those who have it all, but maybe are less fortunate in other ways." ([03:29])
Alex describes auditioning for a traditionally white role (Dally from Matt Dillon in the film):

"I did think there was a trend where I was being called in to play these roles that were traditionally not black men…especially in a post-Hamilton world…” ([04:56])
The conversation reflects a shifting climate in Broadway toward more inclusive casting and storytelling.

2. Physical & Emotional Toll of Broadway Performance

[06:47-11:28]

DJ Envy probes their pre-show rituals, recognizing the physical and vocal needs.
Rennie shares:

"Above all else ... I'm a huge prayer. During performances where I forgot to pray before, people have gotten hurt." ([07:10])
"My mom ... read there was a study that said people who go on stage, they have the same amount of adrenaline as soldiers going into battle." ([08:01])
Charlamagne: "So are you re-traumatizing yourself having to do that fight scene every play?" ([08:30])
Rennie and Alex describe the emotional labor of acting, triggering past traumas to fulfill their roles.
Alex:

“A lot of what we do … there’s a lot of psychological stuff that we have to draw on … trauma, being able to experience emotional hardships, highs and lows, and then sort of pull those things back up. And it’s not always a positive experience.” ([08:44])
Both emphasize rigorous self-care: stretching, grounding, apologizing to their bodies post-show.

3. Race, Class, and Safety — On and Off Stage

[11:28-13:53]

Charlamagne raises the unique tension their identities create:

“You’re black. So, yeah, the show Outsiders is, to me, largely about class … but then you go to real life. So you go from class to race.” ([11:32])
Alex and Rennie explore the elusive concept of "safety" as Black actors and as people:

"What is safety? ... You are all that you’ve ever been." (Rennie, [12:06])
“No, I ... have not felt safe … I do the show … and then I leave and I see that on tv, on social media.” (Rennie, [13:09])
Their performances can be emotionally strenuous as they draw from personal/lived experiences for authenticity.

4. Wellness, Mental Health & Industry Support for Performers

[13:53-16:04]

Hosts ask if Broadway provides resources for mental health or physical support.
Alex critiques the industry's priorities:

“The investment, number one, should be in the health and safety of the people that are keeping the business alive ... The focus is in the wrong place.” ([14:17])
“We have one PT person on site. I don’t think that’s enough ... there should be a mental health professional ... an acting coach on site ... But that doesn’t have to do with ticket sales.” ([15:20])
Discussion highlights the lack of institutional support; much of the responsibility falls on the actors themselves.

5. The ROC Nation Casino Proposal & Missed Opportunities

[16:04-17:33]

Charlamagne and DJ Envy discuss ROC Nation’s failed Times Square casino/broadway initiative, which included child care, mental health, and debt relief for performers.
Broadway actors were largely unaware:

“We only heard about Casino. Yeah, we only heard about ... But that’s why they were out there ... they literally had a whole setup for wellness health.” ([16:44]-[17:08])
The conversation critiques systemic “suck it up” culture and emphasizes what Broadway could learn from other industries.

6. Audience Demographics, Accessibility & Broadway’s Future

[21:43-29:15]

Charlamagne: “I feel like the Broadway audience isn’t getting younger … at some point, I just don’t feel like the audience is growing.” ([21:43])
Rennie ties this to economic accessibility and generational wealth:

"The element that always affects everyone ... Money, money, money. ... the people who have the money are those who have more experience, you know, the people who are older..." ([22:08])
The high ticket cost keeps younger and less affluent audiences away, and even top-grossing shows like Othello may lack nominations or critical acknowledgment.
Alex calls for broader expansion:

“What is Broadway? ... Can Broadway be more than these few theaters in the Times Square area? ... Once that ownership is sort of spread out, we can start to think a little bit more freely about how we get people into these spaces.” ([23:43])

7. Broadway vs. Vegas; Innovation Needed

[25:52-27:37]

The panel compares the energy and evolution of Broadway with Vegas, where legendary acts bring in new demographics.
Everyone agrees Broadway should not be limited to Times Square.

"Let's get a Broadway in Atlanta." (Rennie, [26:56])
“…it has like a spiritual sort of like chokehold that it has on people. But … what is it that relinquishes that hold so that people can find that same sort of joy and be willing to support work that is not in those spaces?" (Alex, [27:05])

8. Commercialization, IP, and Risk-Taking on Broadway

[27:38-29:15]

Alex critiques Broadway’s addiction to revivals/IP rather than original, risky art:

"It's not necessarily cutting edge ... it's all about revivals ... movies ... IP ... The people with money only want to invest in these sure things." ([27:38])
Charlamagne: "Hamilton ... is hip hop. It's black, it's brown ... and yet that risk paid off. More producers need to take risks.” ([28:38])
They lament high-quality but under-supported new works like Ain’t No Mo’ (Jordan Cooper).

9. Culture, Accessibility, and Audience Experience

[29:33-32:09]

Rennie reminisces about Broadway as a special event, with formalwear and ceremony. Now, accessibility is more challenging for youth and non-affluent viewers.

“When you start bringing in these IPs, that is, oh, kids are going to love this, but kids can't afford to see it ... How discounted are the tickets?” ([29:33])
School outreach via matinees is highlighted as essential for audience development.
Increasingly, actors must do theater, film, and TV for survival, believing theater is hardest to automate or replace with AI.

10. Proposed Solutions: Storytelling, Access, and Content

[34:36-36:41]

Alex pitches reality/documentary-style shows behind the scenes of Broadway (draws parallel to Netflix’s Cheer), building emotional connection and stardom:

“Every Broadway show should have a fully produced series about the audition process, about the cuts ... you allow people to build a relationship ... then they can go see the people in real life." ([34:52]-[35:47])
Payment plans for tickets, audience-building outside New York, and leveraging streaming to get new eyes on theater are discussed.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On representation:

"In a post-Hamilton world in which we're giving these American stories to people that are not necessarily being considered, like, American in appearance." — Alex Joseph Grayson ([04:56])
On emotional demands:

"When you're acting, your body does not know the difference between real and fake. So when you bring yourself to that point, you're there." — Rennie Anthony McGee ([07:10])
On institutional issues:

“I wish that Broadway would learn from professional sports leagues. The investment ... should be in the health and safety of the people that are keeping the business alive.” — Alex Joseph Grayson ([14:17])
On innovation:

"Broadway is the height of commercial theater. It's not the greatest form of live performance ... it's got the loudest megaphone as far as advertising budget." — Alex Joseph Grayson ([27:38])
On risk and the future:

"You have to take risks and you have to try new things to gain the trust and love of audiences." — Alex Joseph Grayson ([28:48])

Important Timestamps

03:08-04:56 — Guests introduce themselves, discuss non-traditional casting in The Outsiders.
06:47-11:28 — The physical and emotional grind of Broadway; actors' personal rituals and recovery.
13:53-16:04 — Discussion of lacking mental health/professional support for Broadway actors.
16:04-17:33 — The ROC Nation/Broadway casino proposal with wellness and community support.
21:43-25:22 — Who is the Broadway audience? Why isn’t it younger or more diverse?
25:52-27:37 — Ideas for expanding “Broadway” beyond Times Square; inviting new audiences.
29:33-32:09 — Money, accessibility, and cultural shifts in Broadway attendance and programming.
34:36-36:41 — Using behind-the-scenes media to build audience engagement and accessibility.

Conclusion & Socials

Charlamagne, DJ Envy, and Lauren LaRosa thank Alex and Rennie, encourage everyone to see The Outsiders on Broadway, and commend the guests for their work and insight.

Find them on Instagram:

Rennie Anthony McGee: @renni_anthony ([38:52])
Alex Joseph Grayson: @alexjgsings ([38:58])

Summary Takeaway:
This episode serves as a candid, wide-ranging look at Broadway’s present and possible future through the eyes of two dynamic Black performers. The conversation is rich with personal testimony, critical industry analysis, and forward-thinking solutions—a must-listen (or read!) for theater lovers, artists, and advocates for equity in the arts.

The Breakfast Club Interview: Alex Joseph Grayson & Rennie Anthony McGee on 'The Outsiders,' Broadway, Vegas, and ROC Nation

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking Barriers: Black Leads in The Outsiders

[03:08-04:56]

Charlamagne asks how Alex and Rennie ended up cast in The Outsiders, noting its historically white casting.
Rennie explains the intentionality behind casting people of color:

"We were working with this idea of different races. You have the Socias and the Greasers, and in the '60s, Black people didn’t have much wealth … We were trying to show this story about those less fortunate going against those who have it all, but maybe are less fortunate in other ways." ([03:29])
Alex describes auditioning for a traditionally white role (Dally from Matt Dillon in the film):

"I did think there was a trend where I was being called in to play these roles that were traditionally not black men…especially in a post-Hamilton world…” ([04:56])
The conversation reflects a shifting climate in Broadway toward more inclusive casting and storytelling.

2. Physical & Emotional Toll of Broadway Performance

[06:47-11:28]

DJ Envy probes their pre-show rituals, recognizing the physical and vocal needs.
Rennie shares:

"Above all else ... I'm a huge prayer. During performances where I forgot to pray before, people have gotten hurt." ([07:10])
"My mom ... read there was a study that said people who go on stage, they have the same amount of adrenaline as soldiers going into battle." ([08:01])
Charlamagne: "So are you re-traumatizing yourself having to do that fight scene every play?" ([08:30])
Rennie and Alex describe the emotional labor of acting, triggering past traumas to fulfill their roles.
Alex:

“A lot of what we do … there’s a lot of psychological stuff that we have to draw on … trauma, being able to experience emotional hardships, highs and lows, and then sort of pull those things back up. And it’s not always a positive experience.” ([08:44])
Both emphasize rigorous self-care: stretching, grounding, apologizing to their bodies post-show.

3. Race, Class, and Safety — On and Off Stage

[11:28-13:53]

Charlamagne raises the unique tension their identities create:

“You’re black. So, yeah, the show Outsiders is, to me, largely about class … but then you go to real life. So you go from class to race.” ([11:32])
Alex and Rennie explore the elusive concept of "safety" as Black actors and as people:

"What is safety? ... You are all that you’ve ever been." (Rennie, [12:06])
“No, I ... have not felt safe … I do the show … and then I leave and I see that on tv, on social media.” (Rennie, [13:09])
Their performances can be emotionally strenuous as they draw from personal/lived experiences for authenticity.

4. Wellness, Mental Health & Industry Support for Performers

[13:53-16:04]

Hosts ask if Broadway provides resources for mental health or physical support.
Alex critiques the industry's priorities:

“The investment, number one, should be in the health and safety of the people that are keeping the business alive ... The focus is in the wrong place.” ([14:17])
“We have one PT person on site. I don’t think that’s enough ... there should be a mental health professional ... an acting coach on site ... But that doesn’t have to do with ticket sales.” ([15:20])
Discussion highlights the lack of institutional support; much of the responsibility falls on the actors themselves.

5. The ROC Nation Casino Proposal & Missed Opportunities

[16:04-17:33]

Charlamagne and DJ Envy discuss ROC Nation’s failed Times Square casino/broadway initiative, which included child care, mental health, and debt relief for performers.
Broadway actors were largely unaware:

“We only heard about Casino. Yeah, we only heard about ... But that’s why they were out there ... they literally had a whole setup for wellness health.” ([16:44]-[17:08])
The conversation critiques systemic “suck it up” culture and emphasizes what Broadway could learn from other industries.

6. Audience Demographics, Accessibility & Broadway’s Future

[21:43-29:15]

Charlamagne: “I feel like the Broadway audience isn’t getting younger … at some point, I just don’t feel like the audience is growing.” ([21:43])
Rennie ties this to economic accessibility and generational wealth:

"The element that always affects everyone ... Money, money, money. ... the people who have the money are those who have more experience, you know, the people who are older..." ([22:08])
The high ticket cost keeps younger and less affluent audiences away, and even top-grossing shows like Othello may lack nominations or critical acknowledgment.
Alex calls for broader expansion:

“What is Broadway? ... Can Broadway be more than these few theaters in the Times Square area? ... Once that ownership is sort of spread out, we can start to think a little bit more freely about how we get people into these spaces.” ([23:43])

7. Broadway vs. Vegas; Innovation Needed

[25:52-27:37]

The panel compares the energy and evolution of Broadway with Vegas, where legendary acts bring in new demographics.
Everyone agrees Broadway should not be limited to Times Square.

"Let's get a Broadway in Atlanta." (Rennie, [26:56])
“…it has like a spiritual sort of like chokehold that it has on people. But … what is it that relinquishes that hold so that people can find that same sort of joy and be willing to support work that is not in those spaces?" (Alex, [27:05])

8. Commercialization, IP, and Risk-Taking on Broadway

[27:38-29:15]

Alex critiques Broadway’s addiction to revivals/IP rather than original, risky art:

"It's not necessarily cutting edge ... it's all about revivals ... movies ... IP ... The people with money only want to invest in these sure things." ([27:38])
Charlamagne: "Hamilton ... is hip hop. It's black, it's brown ... and yet that risk paid off. More producers need to take risks.” ([28:38])
They lament high-quality but under-supported new works like Ain’t No Mo’ (Jordan Cooper).

9. Culture, Accessibility, and Audience Experience

[29:33-32:09]

Rennie reminisces about Broadway as a special event, with formalwear and ceremony. Now, accessibility is more challenging for youth and non-affluent viewers.

“When you start bringing in these IPs, that is, oh, kids are going to love this, but kids can't afford to see it ... How discounted are the tickets?” ([29:33])
School outreach via matinees is highlighted as essential for audience development.
Increasingly, actors must do theater, film, and TV for survival, believing theater is hardest to automate or replace with AI.

10. Proposed Solutions: Storytelling, Access, and Content

[34:36-36:41]

Alex pitches reality/documentary-style shows behind the scenes of Broadway (draws parallel to Netflix’s Cheer), building emotional connection and stardom:

“Every Broadway show should have a fully produced series about the audition process, about the cuts ... you allow people to build a relationship ... then they can go see the people in real life." ([34:52]-[35:47])
Payment plans for tickets, audience-building outside New York, and leveraging streaming to get new eyes on theater are discussed.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On representation:

"In a post-Hamilton world in which we're giving these American stories to people that are not necessarily being considered, like, American in appearance." — Alex Joseph Grayson ([04:56])
On emotional demands:

"When you're acting, your body does not know the difference between real and fake. So when you bring yourself to that point, you're there." — Rennie Anthony McGee ([07:10])
On institutional issues:

“I wish that Broadway would learn from professional sports leagues. The investment ... should be in the health and safety of the people that are keeping the business alive.” — Alex Joseph Grayson ([14:17])
On innovation:

"Broadway is the height of commercial theater. It's not the greatest form of live performance ... it's got the loudest megaphone as far as advertising budget." — Alex Joseph Grayson ([27:38])
On risk and the future:

"You have to take risks and you have to try new things to gain the trust and love of audiences." — Alex Joseph Grayson ([28:48])

Important Timestamps

03:08-04:56 — Guests introduce themselves, discuss non-traditional casting in The Outsiders.
06:47-11:28 — The physical and emotional grind of Broadway; actors' personal rituals and recovery.
13:53-16:04 — Discussion of lacking mental health/professional support for Broadway actors.
16:04-17:33 — The ROC Nation/Broadway casino proposal with wellness and community support.
21:43-25:22 — Who is the Broadway audience? Why isn’t it younger or more diverse?
25:52-27:37 — Ideas for expanding “Broadway” beyond Times Square; inviting new audiences.
29:33-32:09 — Money, accessibility, and cultural shifts in Broadway attendance and programming.
34:36-36:41 — Using behind-the-scenes media to build audience engagement and accessibility.

Conclusion & Socials

Charlamagne, DJ Envy, and Lauren LaRosa thank Alex and Rennie, encourage everyone to see The Outsiders on Broadway, and commend the guests for their work and insight.

Find them on Instagram:

Rennie Anthony McGee: @renni_anthony ([38:52])
Alex Joseph Grayson: @alexjgsings ([38:58])

wavePod

INTERVIEW: Alex Joseph Grayson & Renni Magee Talk 'Outsiders,' Broadway, Vegas, ROC Nation + More

Summary

The Breakfast Club Interview: Alex Joseph Grayson & Rennie Anthony McGee on 'The Outsiders,' Broadway, Vegas, and ROC Nation

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking Barriers: Black Leads in The Outsiders

2. Physical & Emotional Toll of Broadway Performance

3. Race, Class, and Safety — On and Off Stage

4. Wellness, Mental Health & Industry Support for Performers

5. The ROC Nation Casino Proposal & Missed Opportunities

6. Audience Demographics, Accessibility & Broadway’s Future

7. Broadway vs. Vegas; Innovation Needed

8. Commercialization, IP, and Risk-Taking on Broadway

9. Culture, Accessibility, and Audience Experience

10. Proposed Solutions: Storytelling, Access, and Content

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Conclusion & Socials

Transcript

Summary

The Breakfast Club Interview: Alex Joseph Grayson & Rennie Anthony McGee on 'The Outsiders,' Broadway, Vegas, and ROC Nation

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking Barriers: Black Leads in The Outsiders

2. Physical & Emotional Toll of Broadway Performance

3. Race, Class, and Safety — On and Off Stage

4. Wellness, Mental Health & Industry Support for Performers

5. The ROC Nation Casino Proposal & Missed Opportunities

6. Audience Demographics, Accessibility & Broadway’s Future

7. Broadway vs. Vegas; Innovation Needed

8. Commercialization, IP, and Risk-Taking on Broadway

9. Culture, Accessibility, and Audience Experience

10. Proposed Solutions: Storytelling, Access, and Content

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Important Timestamps

Conclusion & Socials