INTERVIEW: Cheryl McKissack On ‘The Black Family Who Built America,' Black Solidarity, McKissack & McKissack

Summary

The Breakfast Club: INTERVIEW with Cheryl McKissack Daniel on ‘The Black Family Who Built America,' Black Solidarity, McKissack & McKissack

Release Date: August 14, 2025
Host: DJ Envy, Just Hilarious, and Charlamagne Tha God

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Breakfast Club, hosts DJ Envy, Just Hilarious, and Charlamagne Tha God welcome Cheryl McKissack Daniel, the author of the newly released book “The Black Family Who Built America.” Cheryl delves deep into her family's rich legacy, explores the themes of black solidarity, and discusses the operations of her family business, McKissack & McKissack. The conversation is filled with insightful stories, historical reflections, and practical advice for aspiring black entrepreneurs.

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Cheryl’s Family Legacy

Cheryl McKissack Daniel opens the discussion by tracing her family's roots back to Moses McKissick, who arrived in America in 1790 as a slave skilled in brickmaking. Over the generations, the McKissick family evolved into master carpenters and black architects, significantly contributing to the construction of over 6,000 churches and numerous historically black colleges, including Fisk University and Meharry Medical School.

“Moses McKissick the second… started in North Carolina, but he was given as a gift to the Cheers family in Nashville, Tennessee. That’s when the McKissick moved from North Carolina to Tennessee.” (01:49)

Cheryl highlights the resilience and innovation of her ancestors, emphasizing how their craftsmanship laid the foundation for a successful multi-generational business. The company was later led by her father, William D. Barry McKissick, and then her mother, before Cheryl herself took the helm as the fifth generation leader.

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Importance of Preserving Family History

DJ Envy shares his appreciation for Cheryl’s dedication to documenting her family’s history. He underscores the importance of remembering and honoring ancestors to build generational wealth and identity.

“What you just said is so powerful… It’s something that we miss, you know, when people pass… These are the people that started our lives, started generational wealth.” (04:26)

Cheryl recounts her efforts to preserve the family tree, including her discovery of the original tree among her mother's belongings. She emphasizes the necessity of maintaining records to prevent family history from fading away.

“Just start writing it down and have someone responsible to keep it… We ended up giving a lot of our artifacts to the African American Museum on the Mall, because I kept losing the original license.” (06:23)

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Resilience and Success Through Adversity

Cheryl discusses how her family's history of overcoming slavery and systemic barriers instills a sense of pride and resilience. She cites statistics on the rarity of multi-generational family businesses to highlight the McKissick family's exceptional longevity.

“1 in 5 businesses fail the first year, 65% fell in 10 years… here we are at five generations.” (09:12)

She attributes this success to strategic business practices and the ability to navigate through oppressive systems, beginning during slavery when the family's skills were utilized by their masters in ways that eventually led to economic independence.

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Impact of Media Representations

The conversation shifts to the portrayal of African Americans in media, particularly referencing the historical film “Birth of a Nation” and its detrimental impact on public perception. Cheryl contrasts this with modern, authentic representations of black life and achievements, emphasizing the need to tell their own stories.

“This film scolded them and said… it's the complete opposite of what was happening in Hollywood 100 years ago.” (12:41)

Cheryl praises contemporary black filmmakers for accurately depicting the struggles and successes of the black community, which fosters a more positive and empowering narrative.

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Business Challenges for Black Entrepreneurs

DJ Envy raises concerns about the payment practices in the construction industry, noting that delayed payments disproportionately affect black-owned businesses. Cheryl acknowledges these challenges and explains how her company, McKissack & McKissack, addresses them.

“Cash flow is extremely important… if you don’t get paid on time or if you have to borrow money, that’s eating into your actual profit.” (15:36)

She introduces the concept of an “Impress account,” which allows her company to pay contractors quickly, thereby ensuring steady cash flow and maintaining strong contractor relationships.

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Leveraging MWBE Certification

Cheryl shares her strategy for utilizing Minority and Women-Owned Business Enterprise (MWBE) certifications to grow her construction firm. She explains how starting as a sub-consultant with larger firms enables her to gain essential industry experience and eventually secure prime contracts.

“I am the first generation that certified as an MWBE, and that was here in New York City… ultimately, the goal is to get to prime contracts.” (40:55)

This approach not only helped her company thrive but also paved the way for other black and women-owned businesses to participate in large-scale projects.

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Black Solidarity and Collaboration

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the importance of black solidarity in achieving business success. Cheryl recounts her involvement in the Barclays Center project in Brooklyn, highlighting how collaboration with other black leaders and firms led to impactful outcomes.

“Black solidarity… working together will make a difference… Jim Reynolds and Magic Johnson’s leadership.” (24:20)

She illustrates how pooling resources and support within the community can lead to substantial economic advancements and reinforce the presence of black-owned businesses in major developments.

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Policy Changes for Equitable Competition

When asked about policy changes, Cheryl advocates for the removal of personal net worth thresholds in MWBE certifications. She argues that current financial barriers prevent many black entrepreneurs from qualifying, thereby limiting their opportunities.

“I would get rid of personal net worth goals… firms are too small to be big and too big to be small.” (28:02)

Additionally, she emphasizes the critical need for increased access to capital, noting that venture capital is disproportionately inaccessible to minority-owned firms.

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Lessons from Cheryl’s Mother

Cheryl pays homage to her mother, whose fearless approach to business and problem-solving greatly influenced her own career. She shares poignant anecdotes of her mother's negotiations and client interactions, which taught her resilience and strategic thinking.

“My mother taught me not to be afraid of anybody… Always walk up to people and say, hello, introduce yourself and not worry about what they look like.” (30:55)

These lessons underscore the importance of confidence, preparation, and adaptability in navigating the business world.

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Maintaining and Celebrating Family Legacy

Towards the end of the interview, Cheryl emphasizes the significance of living a balanced life—“have fun, play hard, work hard”—while maintaining business excellence. She encourages others to celebrate and share their family histories as a source of inspiration and pride.

“When they ask who built it, you could be like, oh, I know her. I just saw her on purpose.” (44:47)

Cheryl's dedication to preserving and promoting her family's legacy serves as a model for other black families seeking to build and sustain generational wealth.

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Conclusion and Future Plans

The episode concludes with Cheryl promoting her book and upcoming events, such as a fireside chat at Invest Fest. She reiterates the importance of recognizing and supporting black-owned businesses and encourages listeners to engage with their own family histories.

“The book is available everywhere… We need to celebrate it, appreciate it, learn about it, and know about it.” (47:14)

Cheryl's inspiring journey and actionable insights offer valuable lessons for aspiring entrepreneurs and anyone interested in the profound impact of black families on America's development.

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Notable Quotes

• “Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up.” — Cheryl McKissack Daniel (00:34)

• “We have to work together as a race. All of us working together will make a difference.” — Just Hilarious (24:20)

• “Relationships are key.” — Cheryl McKissack Daniel (40:37)

• “If you patronize these businesses or if you have any empathy or sympathy for black people, you shouldn't.” — Just Hilarious (13:58)

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Cheryl McKissack Daniel’s interview on The Breakfast Club not only sheds light on her extraordinary family legacy but also highlights the broader themes of black solidarity, resilience, and the critical need for systemic changes to support minority-owned businesses. Her insights serve as a powerful reminder of the enduring impact one family can have on building and shaping America.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[State Farm Representative]

Taking control of your career is empowering. Just don't tell my boss I said that. Building a career isn't just about a job. It's about creating a path that impacts our community and future generations. Whether you're starting out or making big moves, State Farm is here to support you with resources to help protect what you're working hard to achieve. They've got your back every step of the way. Because, like, a good neighbor state forum is there. Find out [e-mail] hold up.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up. The Breakfast Club.

[Just Hilarious]

Y' all finished or y' all done?

[DJ Envy]

Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy. Just hilarious. Charlamagne, the guy. We are the breakfast club. Lauren LaRosa is here with us as well. And we got a special guest in the building.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Yes, we do.

[DJ Envy]

Her new book is out right now. The Black Family who Built America, ladies and gentlemen. She's back. Cheryl McKissick. Daniel, welcome.

[Just Hilarious]

Thank you. How you feeling? I'm so excited.

[DJ Envy]

Welcome back.

[Just Hilarious]

Thank you. Thank you.

[DJ Envy]

Good to see you.

[Just Hilarious]

Good to see you, too. You look younger.

[DJ Envy]

I love that.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Oh, I know.

[Just Hilarious]

That's right.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

The dying is right.

[Just Hilarious]

Hey, whatever he's doing, I need some of that.

[DJ Envy]

So for people that didn't hear when you came up here last time or didn't read the book yet, explain what your family has done for this country, the black family who built America. Break it down from your great, great grandfather. How he started and where it came from.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Moses.

[Just Hilarious]

Moses McKissick the first. That's right. Okay, so let me start with saying I am the proud CEO of a fifth generation business in America. And I know Charlamagne keeps calling it seven generations. He's just calling in the girl behind me.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Okay.

[Just Hilarious]

And her children, my grandkids. He got in trouble for that earlier today.

[DJ Envy]

She was one of the producers. Was like, it's fifth generation.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

I keep saying seven. I thought it was seven generation because.

[Just Hilarious]

That'S what it's going to be. Manifesting. That's right. He's manifesting. So we date back 230 years in this country, starting with the first descendant of our family, Moses McKissick. The first who came to this country in 1790 as a slave and was taught the trade of making brick. His son was Moses McKissick. I second. And he was a master carpenter. And he actually started in North Carolina, but he was given as a gift to the Cheers family in Nashville, Tennessee, or Spring Hill. And so that's when the McKissick moved from North Carolina to Tennessee. He had seven girls and then seven boys. And his first son is Moses McKissick the third and his brother Calvin. And they became the first black licensed architects in America. Sure, you don't want that one to stand. And anyway, they were known because they traveled all through the Northeast and the south. They built over 6,000 churches. They built 13, 14 historically black colleges. All the colleges, all the buildings at Fisk University are pretty much designed by Calvin and Moses McKissick. Meharry Medical School, Tennessee State University. What's the one in Tuskegee? And so they worked all through the South. They also got an opportunity to go to Haiti and work with Paper Papa Doc and then over to Africa. So these men were very innovative. And the company was then passed down to my father, William D. Barry McKissick. And so now we're four generations in, if you haven't lost count.

[DJ Envy]

All right?

[Just Hilarious]

And then the company was passed down to my mother, who was a fierce leader all by herself. And then eventually, I stepped in and took over the company as the fifth generation.

[DJ Envy]

You know what I love about that? And I joke with my kids all the time, right? And I said, you know, when I pass, I said, I'm gonna leave y' all everything. I said, but there's one thing that I need. And I said, I want to put a family portrait of me and my wife in the house. And they said, well, why? I said, a lot of times in our family, we forget about grandfathers, great grandfathers, and what they've established and brought to us, because it's like time moves.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

So fast, especially the great grandparents.

[DJ Envy]

So the fact that you can break down all that, you know, your kids will be able to break down at that down, your grandkids will be able to break that down. And that's something that I feel like we miss, you know, when people pass, you know, we're sad, and then we forget about it. But these are the people that started our lives, started generational wealth we talk about all the time. And I feel like, especially in black families, we should have that. We should know, like, I don't know my great grandfather. I don't know much about him because my grandfather didn't talk about him and my parents didn't talk about him. But it's one of those things. It's like we move on. And I love the fact that that is so built into your family that y' all keep talking about it, you keep mentioning, and you keep talking about the great Things that your family has done.

[Just Hilarious]

I love that, you know, what you just said is so powerful, but it's so easy to record what's happening in your family. Just do a family tree. Just start a family tree with the individuals that you do know. I remember being, like, 9 or 10 years old. My mother said, look at this. We just found a family tree. And I'm like, I was fascinated by it. So that was the beginning of me really trying to get this story out. I remember taking that family tree to my father's office and turning it into a real structural plan. I mean, it was, like, as huge as a blueprint for a building, because it dated back to my great, great grandfather. But I kept losing it. I mean, I totally redid it. Beautiful print and everything. And lost it. Can't find it. So now when it's time to do the book, I'm like, well, the one thing we need is a family tree, because people will get lost in the shuffle reading all of this. So a couple weeks ago, I go visit my mother, and I'm cleaning out one of her drawers, and bam.

[DJ Envy]

That's the family tree.

[Just Hilarious]

The original one I saw from the very beginning. That's God. And so what I would say to everyone is just start writing it down and have someone responsible to keep it. That is why we ended up giving a lot of our artifacts to the African American Museum on the Mall, because I kept losing the original license. Well, you put them in your office, actually, we store them and we make replicas of the license and of the pictures and things like that. But then when it comes time, when you move, you're like, oh, my God, where is it? I told Chan, my PR consultant, I said, chan, I am tired of losing this. What are we going to do? She said, we're going to give it to the museum, and they will keep it forever. And so that's important that we keep up with our family legacy. Cause everyone has one you see all the time with.

[DJ Envy]

When you see white people, they do it all the time, right? Like, love him or hate him. You know who Donald Trump's father is, right? You know who Donald Trump's grandfather is, right? Because he talks about him all the time. You hear the story about his father that gave him a million dollars, you hear those stories.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

It's easy, though. But a lot of times, I think the great, great grandparents that you end up losing track of, your father and your grandparents, that's easy, because that's pretty much your generation.

[DJ Envy]

Trump's son and Trump's grandson will Always know about the grandfather that gave Donald Trump the million dollars to start his business.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Some of them knew him, though.

[DJ Envy]

You know what I mean? But, you know, those stories always talk, because you hear about the stories and we need to talk about ours more.

[Podcast Announcer]

I think it's a little different for us, too, because, like with my grandmother, she always talks about how, like, they weren't. They didn't keep record of things because they just. It wasn't something that was normal in the household. Like, you didn't have pictures of certain people. You didn't. So then that gets passed down. It's just something you don't know to do.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Also, as black people, they just didn't care about us enough to give us our records.

[Just Hilarious]

They threw them out. They didn't care. But I still think you can find it. It's just genealogy and getting a genealogist to help you go through it. I mean, we went back. Well, with Nick Childs, we went back to Spring Hill, Tennessee, and went through records of the slaves that were actually working on the McKissick House and the Cheers House. And there were records. You know, I mean, they try to erase them, but they can't. I mean, they're graves. So I think everyone can contract their family history.

[DJ Envy]

And I want to ask.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

When I read this book and I see how this empire started in the 1800s, it reminds me of how resilient black people are. We can navigate our way through anything. So it gave me a sense of. Of hope, especially for the times that we're in now. Has it always given you that sense of pride?

[Just Hilarious]

Yeah, I mean, you know, if you think about it, 1 in 5 businesses fail the first year, 65% fell in 10 years, and the average family business only lasts 24 years. Now the chances for a family business to pass down to a second generation, it's like 60%. The chances of it passing to a third is 14, and I mean to a third is 14% and to a fourth generation generation is 3%. So here we are at five generations. And so I think what we do in the book is we make a case as to how the McKissick were able to do that. And it goes all the way back to slavery. So slavery was different in every state. You know, like North Carolina was probably the most lenient of slaves at the time compared to, let's say, Alabama and some other states.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

South Carolina.

[Just Hilarious]

South Carolina. And really it's because they didn't have as many of the huge plantations. Slave masters have more like 12, 13, 14, 15 slaves. So the slaves were more like extended family. They weren't really. They didn't have to be suppressed, because just think about it, we went to Spring Hill, Tennessee, and we saw a plantation where there was a family of five people, but there were 300 slaves working for them. So who had the power? That's right. Right. So you have to suppress the 300 people if you want to survive. And so it wasn't like that in North Carolina. So we make that case that, you know, the leniency of slavery in that state must have helped the McKissick gets where they are. And then the fact that slave masters after slavery still needed the craft and services that we provided. So they put us in business. And so the McKissick were put in business by their slave masters. Moses McKissick the second had his first company. And so, you know, this was during the time where we had Tulsa, so we had the black Wall street, and this was all over the country happening. I mean, this did not change until Birth of a Nation. And I don't know if you read that in the book, but that's why I was so excited to launch the book last week in Martha's Vineyard at the African American Film Festival, because it is the complete opposite of what was happening in Hollywood 100 years ago with Birth of a Nation that depicted us as ignorant, subhuman sexual predators. And, you know, it scolded white people who thought maybe we should reach out. You know, they're trying to figure out what to do. You were a slave one day, and now you're in business the next day. They're patronizing you. They're. Some people are just. They're good people. And so this. This film scolded them and said to them, listen, if you patronize these businesses or if you have any empathy or sympathy for black people, you shouldn't. And then for others who hated us, it gave them the license to just.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Kill us and instilled more fear in them as to why they should never give us any political power.

[Just Hilarious]

I mean, the fear is still here today. And that was the rebirth of the Ku Klux Klan. You know, this. And because it was economically so successful, it was really like the beginning of Hollywood. So Hollywood was birthed with this racial movie about black people. So now to be in Martha's Vineyard and to go to all of those black films that really tell the truth about us, you know, all the women aren't skinny with long blonde hair. You know what I mean? I went to see Ebony Canal, which is about the problem we're having with black women. Pregnancy, getting pregnant, delivering healthy children, and our children living past a year, you know, And I was so glad to see that the women really did look black. Nothing was sanitized. And that's what we have to do, is tell our stories. And that's what our book does. It's a receipt.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

You know, I'm glad that you bought the TV part of it up, because I remember when they were going to turn your story into a television show with Paramount, and I'm like, that's never probably gonna happen now. Right. But it's. Because when you dropped it.

[Just Hilarious]

But.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

But when you showcase these type of stories, and I'm glad we able to publish the book, but when you showcase these type of stories, it provides inspiration. It does the exact opposite of what films like the Birth of a Nation would do.

[Just Hilarious]

Yes. Yeah. Because that was detrimental. I mean, because of that, I believe, is the root of. Of Tulsa being burned and, you know, Chester, Pennsylvania, all across the nation, where black people were thriving. If they had just left us alone right now, this picture would be totally different.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Absolutely.

[Just Hilarious]

Than it is today. So, anyway, I do have to ask.

[DJ Envy]

You know, when I speak to a lot of black company owners and construction company owners, they say one of the hardest things is these companies don't pay out when they're supposed to. Right. So it's like, you know, let's say they have a net 30, net 60, net 90. We're supposed to get paid in these times. And it's like a lot of times they feel like, especially with the black companies, they don't have the. Necessarily the money to hold until they actually do get paid. Do you have to deal with that a lot when it comes to these. These companies, when you building these things and things like that? Cause a lot of companies actually fold because they're old money and they just can't survive.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Oh, you gotta read the book. I haven't.

[Just Hilarious]

That's what I'm asking. No, that's. That's definitely a problem. Okay. When you.

[DJ Envy]

And it seemed like it seems like it has happens to us more than others.

[Just Hilarious]

Well, yeah, they. But. Okay, so the bottom line is real estate and construction is a capital intense business. Right. You got to have some serious money, some serious relationship. If you're building airports, schools, you know, anything in New York, I mean, renovating a kitchen is a million dollars in New York. Okay. So you crazy. You got to have money. And so it's very difficult to bridge that gap as a new contractor coming in and so what we do is we create what's called an Impress account. So let's take JFK, Terminal 1. And you know, this is the difference between having, you know, having black ownership at the top of the food chain, because we have Jim Reynolds, Luke Capital, and Magic. Magic Johnson. But we were able to do an Impress account, meaning we could pay contractors extremely quickly before 30 days. Because the bottom line is if your construction is faulty in any way, you're going to see it. As long as you're inspecting on a regular basis, you're going to see if there's a problem. So if a contractor gets paid a little bit more and they still have to come back and fix something, so what? Contractors are used to tearing down a wall and putting it back up, as long as you catch it. But, but, and so that helps contractors a lot because cash flow is extremely important here. Because if you miss your union dues by a few days, your workers don't show up. And the union doesn't mess around with that. They want their union dues and they want the union to be paid. So you gotta pay for that. You gotta get your materials to the job. So when you're a contractor, a lot of that money is flowing from you to, to other sources, if it's your payroll, if it's your equipment or what have you, and you're only keeping a fraction of it to yourself. And so if you don't get paid on time or if you have to borrow money, that's eating into your actual profit. And so, yeah, that, that is a serious problem. Access to capital.

[DJ Envy]

What's the most difficult thing that you have to deal with? You would say that I have to deal with company.

[Just Hilarious]

I mean, you know, it's the same. It just never changes. You know, most of the time, especially when I first came to New York, I'd walk into the room, I'm the only woman, definitely the only black woman. I was never expected to lead anything. People don't want your opinion, don't want your advice, and, you know, it's kind of a nuisance. Like, what are you doing here? Um, and so just getting over all of that and saying, you know, listen, I'm going to lean into my legacy. I'm going to lean into delivering on time, on budget, with excellence. And I'm going to let my work speak for me. And that is how I built my reputation in New York over the years. You know, it's interesting thing I'm doing the New York Building Congress is the premier club in New York City. When it comes to real estate, construction and design. And I have been going to their galas for years. And the first gala I went to was over 30 years ago. It was in the 80s. And I remember being the only black woman. I remember seeing 500 white men in suits and a couple of white women. And, you know, I'm thinking to myself, how am I ever gonna make it in this city if these are the people that I have to rely on to get my work? I have to tell you, 15 years in, my husband said to me, cheryl, stop running up to these people and telling them who you are. You need to just lay back. They know who you are now. And I'm like, he doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm never bringing him to one of these. Sure enough, the next event, I'm like, you know what? I'm going to try what he said. So I just stood there instead of running over to people, hey, my name is Cheryl McKissick. How you doing? They were coming to me. And so, you know, you establish yourself over time. Now here we are, 30 some odd years later. I'm interviewing right now to be chair of the Building Congress. Amazing. The lead of the Building Congress, which has to be approved by the governor. I don't know which mayor.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Well, no showing.

[Just Hilarious]

But these things can happen. But, you know, you have to constantly, you have to be persistent, prepared, you have to persevere, and you have to be on purpose.

[Podcast Announcer]

When do you know? Okay, when do you know how to, like, like your husband said, like, sit back, but. Or when do you know how to, like, kind of like poke your chest out and be like, okay, but do you know who I am? Like, what's that, like, balance for you? Because in the book you talk about, it was early on, but there was a time where you were fighting for a certain percentage of a partnership and they played with you a little bit about what you could and couldn't do, Right? But like, now it's different because you have so much more under your belt. Like, when do you know how to fold or hold them? Like, you know what I mean?

[Just Hilarious]

No, I know exactly what you mean. And, you know, it's really. You're going to have to, like, pay attention to what's happening in the room or have someone who cares about you in the room paying attention. Because in the beginning, no one knows who you are. So you do have to kiss the rings. You got to pay homage. You got to let people, you know, get to experience who you are as a person. But After a while, after you've contributed and after, you know people for a while, then you shouldn't have to do that. You know, I'm in new circles quite a bit now, but my reputation precedes my, you know, me entering the room. So I'd like to say I try and hold back and, and just relax and, and talk to everyone just like they're anyone, but sometimes I feel like I have to go over and introduce myself. Yeah. And whoever is. If it's Anna Warthrop and it. Or if it's someone who looks like they don't want to talk to you, that's exactly who. That's it. That's exactly who I will run up to and talk to. But it's not everybody. It's not everybody.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Can you talk to us about some of the challenges you faced when y' all were involved with the Barclays center in Brooklyn?

[Just Hilarious]

Because I found that, you know, that was. When I look back on that experience, it was probably one of the best because I remember sitting just watching TV and hearing Bruce Radner was going to buy this team and build this arena. And I knew Brooklyn was, you know, had a high percentage of African Americans and that the politicians there were strong and they were going to make sure that minorities or African Americans were a part of this development. And so I remember just thinking, okay, let me make a list of all the black politicians, ministers.

[State Farm Representative]

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[Just Hilarious]

And I'm going out and I'm meeting all of them. And in the first four or five, I met Bertha Lewis and you talking about a force of nature. I mean, Bertha Lewis was well respected. Because if you didn't respect her, she was gonna picket your sight. And I mean, really turn it out. So she became really good friends with Bruce Ratner. She had a real knack for finding compromise. You know, some people are all or nothing. She found great compromise, and so people like Bruce Ratner respected her. The next thing I know, she's flying around on his plane. And I'm like, okay, she's in. I know I'm in. And that's how it works, you know, it's important that we really work together as a race. You know, all of us working together will make a difference. You know, like Charlamagne. You saying, I will publish your book. That is black solidarity. That is really working together. That is when black people. When I can go in a room and I can talk about you and you're not there and I can say something positive and support you. That's what we need to happen all the time. We need sponsors at high levels doing that all the time. The Jim Reynolds and Magic Johnson's. I can't talk about them enough and what they've done. We're at a billion dollars at JFK Terminal 1 spent with MWBE firms because of their leadership, their risk. It was a risk for them to own this airport and putting their money where their mouth is. And so we were able to help local black firms in Queens, in Manhattan, in Brooklyn. I mean, it's a beautiful story. I can go back to. And this is in the book. And I know I'm talking about Barkley Arena. I hadn't forgotten. This is it. Because I can go five different ways at one time. I was in Martha's Vineyard for the launch of the book, and Wendy and George Van Amson walked in. So Wendy and George are in my book because when I had my first payroll that I could not make, I called five black investment bankers. And they all gave me money. They all let me borrow money from them. And they were two of them. And first, I got the wife first. And she said, I'm gonna make George write you a check too. You know, and that's how we have to do it. That's right. We have to work together. And so Barkley arena is that story, you know, working with Lyndale McMillan. Oh, God, I'm trying to. Roger Green, black politician back then, you know, they went into Bruce Radner with Bertha Lewis. And they said, listen, we don't care who you bring in on the majority side, but you Got to work with McKissick and McKissick because that's who we want, because we know that they're going to pay it forward. They're going to make sure our community goes to work. And so Barclay arena is like all of that coming together, black solidarity coming together and making it happen.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

If you could change one policy tomorrow to level the playing field for black owned construction firms, what would it be and why?

[Just Hilarious]

I would get rid of personal net worth goals, which we've gotten rid of pretty much in the city. In this is it in the city, I think is. Yes, in the city there is no personal net worth goal, meaning there are thresholds to be certified as an mwbe. And for the state of New York, I want to say it's $15 million excluding your business, excluding your home. Your net worth can't be more than that if you want to be an MWBE. If you go to Tennessee, Florida, D.C. that number is like a million too. So like black investment bankers, they can't get certified as MBA W B es. And so, you know, I feel like that would help a lot if we got rid of some of these thresholds because what happens, and this is in the book too, you're, you're too small to be big and too big to be small. And so that really hurts firms over a period of time. And then, you know, I, I think capital is another important things, not a policy, but. Well, it is, you know, because if you think about the pension funds, you know, and every state has one, well, they're the ones supplying all of the venture capitalist money. And out of all the venture capitalist money out there, you know, firms of color have less than 1.2%. And so that needs to change. You know, we, we, we need the capital. I mean, you know, you see all these big developers, you know, developing these projects. They're not using their money, they're using other people's money. But we don't have access to that. And so we can't build that long term wealth, you know, and you've had Don here, you know, Don, Don talks a lot about that because that's, that's his business. But that should be all of our business, you know, ownership.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Speaking of Don, what happened with the Freedom Tower? You, you kind of, you gloss over it in the book a little bit like, what exactly happened with the Freedom Tower? Why isn't it happening? Oh, you don't want to talk about it?

[Just Hilarious]

Want to drink some of your water?

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

We move on. We move on. Okay.

[Podcast Announcer]

I was going to Ask. You just mentioned with the payroll situation, you had relationships that you could call. You talk a lot about watching your mom navigate rooms and building relationships and what that taught you today. What are, like, some of the biggest things that you still remember from what your mom taught you that helped you every day in business?

[Just Hilarious]

My mom taught me not to be afraid of anybody, to be afraid of her, just like a black mother. No. And she's not. She's not afraid of any. Anybody. But she taught me that. And I don't mean, you know, when I say afraid. Just don't feel like they're better than you or that you have nothing to offer them. Always walk up to people and say, hello, introduce yourself and not worry about what they look like. And I tell a story in there about Gentry Carl, who was this old, old white man who was running this, the state of Tennessee's school district. And I had been working with my mom now for over a year. And. And so she was teaching me how to do business development and how to sell our business. And so I had watched her for a year. And so this day, she said, you're going to go in and you are going to do the sales pitch. So, I mean, I had never done that before, and I was scared to death. Like, my daughter back here, she's scared to death. She's like, mommy, I could never do what you do. I'm like, I was just like you.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Yeah, you talk about that in the book.

[Just Hilarious]

I'm just like you and mom. I got into that room, I was shaking like a leaf, but I looked at my mother and she raised her eyebrow. I'm like, I'm more scared of her than I am of him. And I started talking to him. He never lifted his head. His head was down like this the whole whole time. And I mean, he had a road map in his face. And I'm like, this dude is not feeling me. But anyway, I was like, I'm just going to get it out. So I do the pitch. And he stands up, he says, come over here, young lady. So I go over to him, he grabs my hand. He said, I absolutely want to do business with you. He didn't say anything the whole time. And I looked at my mom, looked at me like, told you.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Just Hilarious]

Because, well, she knew him, I didn't. And so that taught me a lot, you know, like, you don't really know what people are thinking just by the way they look, you know? Yeah. He was an old white man in rural south with, you know, racism and everything going on. But he had a respect for my mother and the McKissicks, and he did business with us. She also taught me how to solve problems. We went to Tuskegee University to open a building, and the president walked up to mom and said, you know, Ms. McKissick, two years ago, when I told you to design this place, I told you it gets hot and we need operable windows. He said, I don't have one operable window in this building. They all will not open. So we're going to suffocate in here. So my mom looked at him, she said, no, you're not. We're going to fix that. I'm going to pay to have every window removed. So now he's happy. She's not that happy. But we're walking through the campus, and so mom sees this old building, dilapidated. They're literally keeping lawn furniture there. And mom says, I see you living there, Dr. Peyton. And Dr. Payton said, huh? She said, aren't you looking for a new residence? And he was. So mom understood that he needed a problem solved, and so she said, let's go in there. So she goes in and she sells him on. You know, it's a stately building with this beautiful coppola at the top. And she says, we're gonna call it Gray Columns. She said, you're gonna live here. And so she had to pay for the windows, but she also got another project all at the same time. And I just watch her move through all of that, you know, because she wasn't an architect, she wasn't a contractor, she probably couldn't even mix concrete. But she understood how to deal with the psychology of people.

[Podcast Announcer]

And she took over the business during the time where, like, women didn't have a lot of the respect that men did in business. Like, it was hard for her.

[Just Hilarious]

Yep. She took over in the 80s. The Women's Business act came about in 1990, so that before the Women's Buildings Business act, women couldn't borrow money. And so you just had to sit there and be broke. Your uncle could. What'd you say? You just had to sit there and be broke. Like, you can't even say, let me get five out. But just think about it. This was in 1990. That's when Spike Lee's first movie came out. This was yesterday. We were doing the Butt.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Don't excite him. It was a dance. It was a dance. Not what you thinking about. I don't want to excite you.

[DJ Envy]

Do you know who sang that song?

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Yeah. Eu Eu.

[Just Hilarious]

Come on now, just make it short.

[DJ Envy]

You didn't go to hbcu, so I don't know if they played it where you are.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

I don't know that. I didn't know that.

[DJ Envy]

Okay, go ahead, Ms. Howard University, continue on.

[Just Hilarious]

But I'm just saying that was just yesterday in our world, you know, I don't even think there was an Internet in 1990. Right. Okay. So women are just coming on the scene at that point and considered business women. But listen, my mother knew how to operate, she knew how to move, and. And I learned that from her.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

The thing I like a lot, too, about the black family who built America, we're talking to Cheryl McKissick, is you also. You've lived a life. And I want you to talk about that. How important is it for people just to live life? Cause you talk about why you didn't drink. Then you talk about why you started to get a little drink. Then you start.

[Just Hilarious]

I know that's right.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Then you start talking about how you like the boys, especially the hood niggas. Like, you know What I'm saying, Ms. Cheryl, Ms. Cheryl, just speak to the importance of also living a life.

[Just Hilarious]

Yes. Well, yeah. Our motto in our family is have fun, play hard, work hard, and then play hard. And then my pastor, A.R. bernard, has another saying, and he's like, I do what I have to do now so I can do what I want to do later. And that's really the way you have to live life. I mean, if you're going to achieve anything and really enjoy those moments with your family and your friends without any cares in the world, you gotta take care of what your business is first. And so we were able to live life that way. We grew up in a small neighborhood in Nashville, Tennessee, and we knew everyone on our block. And so our regular day was after we did our homework, we could go outside and play with our friends. You know, kickball, whatever. He was innocent.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Till you got older.

[Just Hilarious]

Till we got older. Okay. Did you get a galley? Oh, boy. Okay, so the galley has it all. We took some of that stuff out. No. So it was fun. I mean, and then showing up on Howard University's campus after being at an all white school school from first grade all the way to 12th grade, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. You know, everyone was black in D.C. at that time. You know, the U Street, all around Howard University. It's not like that now, but back then, that's how it was. And so, you know, we had our own shops, our clubs, you know, La Cafe Tiffany's. The fox trap. You know, it was amazing. Fox trap. The fox trap. Okay. What that is, Ms. Cheryl, look it up. It's still out there. It's still out there on the Internet.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

It was all community. It was just all community.

[Just Hilarious]

It was all community and everybody got along. I mean, you know, from the higher echelons to, you know, the janitors and, you know, what the. The cleaning ladies. I mean, it was. Everyone was together. And I mean, all the time we go on the weekends out, you know, to our lake property, and the parties would just roll. Yeah.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

And I enjoyed it because you said you. That's what you grew up seeing, even in your house. Like, that's what your parents used to do in their house, Invite people over, have a good time.

[Just Hilarious]

That's right. Yeah. And, you know, my mother would credit herself, and that's how she would help my father win his work, because she would tell him, bring your clients home. We're going to have a nice gourmet meal at home. And then she'd have me and my twin sister, you know, laying out the china, you know, so you learn a lot when you're doing those types of things. And then we're just sitting there listening. Yeah. We're hearing the transactions taking place. And so it was good, good, great life. People got to build in business. Relationships. Building really good relationships. Yeah, relationships are key.

[DJ Envy]

That's right.

[Podcast Announcer]

I was going to say, speaking to relationships. A lot of the. The projects that you do, you talk so much in the book about the W, the MWBE and bringing in other black contractors, but also women contractors from that organization. Can you talk about the MWBE and the importance of it and what it did for you in business?

[Just Hilarious]

Sure. So I'm the first generation that certified as an mwbe, and that was here in New York City. So I had a strategy. My strategy was to figure out which of the agencies had the most money for capital programs. Pick three and work those three. And. And that's what I did. And so the only way to get in was having an MWBE certification, but that meant you had to be a sub. Excuse me, a sub consultant to a larger contractor. And at the time, let me say that the MWBE goals were probably like less than 10%, but it was fine because construction in New York is very complicated. And so we needed. I needed to make sure I really understood what I was doing. How to get through the building department and pull permits, how to work with the unions, what's in contracts, all these things that are extremely important. If you're going to conduct business successfully. And so I didn't mind working as a sub to say a Turner Construction, a Skanska Construction, all the large companies at the time. So really I was selling myself to them and not necessarily to the direct client until later. But the plan was, once I understood how the game was played, to then make sure I got to a prime role. So to take those programs and use them to learn a client, to learn a business, I think is great. But the ultimate goal is you have to get to the point where you have your own prime contracts because that's when you get to chart your own destiny. You know, that's where you get to really build a strong team of individuals in your company. It's hard to, to attract good people when you're taking that person and you're telling that one or two employee of yours, I need for you go to go work in someone else's shop for the next two years instead of my shop. But when I'm in control of the project, they're working in my shop. So that's, that's how you use those programs.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

What structural changes are still needed for minority owned firms like to compete on equal footing? What, what structural changes are needed?

[Just Hilarious]

I keep going back to access to capital. We, yeah, that, that has to happen. And then there's another dynamic in New York that is insurance based. Because of the scaffolding law here, our insurance is exponentially higher than any other state in the United States. And it's, it's prohibitive if you're a small firm because you know, how do you pay a million dollar policy and you don't even have a project yet.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Right.

[Just Hilarious]

But you can't get a project unless you have a policy, unless you have an insurance, you know, certificate. And so the insurance, we've got to deal with that and it's costing all of us a lot of money. And so it's not just a minority woman owned business problem. It's a problem across the board in New York City. So that, that definitely needs to change.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Tell us about the merch that they asked.

[Just Hilarious]

Okay. That y' all didn't bring us, by the way. I know we ran out in the Vineyard. Everybody, everybody wanted a T shirt. Well, that's amazing. And it is, it's really catchy. But they ask and the back says, who built this? And the reason why that's significant is because people walk in their own church. They can walk in a hospital, walk through a train station. People can say, oh, it feels nice. I like this Environment. But no one says, well, who built this? No one asked the question, who designed this? You know, is. Is there a connection between Terminal 1 and JFK and LaGuardia Central Terminal? Like, who. Who built this? And so we want to bring awareness to that for people to say, who built this? And for people to get interested in the real estate design and construction profession. And of course, we say we did. McKissick. That's amazing. That's amazing. My husband always does that, though he does ask, like, wherever we go, sometimes I wonder who built this. He.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

But he's also Mexican.

[Just Hilarious]

Please don't write, please. It's not even. Don't even give that new light over there. He asked that all the time. We go to museums, we go to saliva. I wonder who built this. Like, he. He always. Well, maybe he has a, you know, he Likes Construction.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Or.

[Just Hilarious]

Ms. McKissick, though.

[Podcast Announcer]

Where do you think she was going?

[Just Hilarious]

Exactly where she went. Maybe. Maybe. Because you know how they are, you.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Know, construction a little bit.

[Just Hilarious]

Well, we just ordered 500t shirts because we're going to Invest Fest. That's right. Okay. I know that's right. So you will all get your T shirts before we go down there, please, because you ain't gonna leave with none in Atlanta.

[DJ Envy]

That's right.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Yes. You'll be doing a fireside chat with Ms. Basketball at Invest Fest. That's right. This year it'll be on Friday. What day? What is it? Friday the 20.

[Just Hilarious]

What day is second? August 22nd.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Friday the 22nd.

[Just Hilarious]

That's right. 5 o'. Clock.

[DJ Envy]

The black Family who Built America. We appreciate you for joining us so much.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

The book is available everywhere. I buy books right now from Cheryl McKissack. Daniel, you are black history.

[DJ Envy]

That's right.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Like, you know, we always be reading stuff in history books and, you know, wondering who these people were. We got living, breathing black history sitting with us every day still out here. So we need to celebrate it, appreciate it, learn about it, and know about it. So when they ask who built it, you could be like, oh, I know her. I just saw her on purpose.

[Just Hilarious]

Exactly. That's why I'm telling you. I love it. I love it. I'mma ask my. I'mma tell my husband next time. Cheryl McKissick, babe. I know that I know her. Tell him that. Every single time. Yes, I got her some water. Yes, I know her. Tell him if he wants to go and design a construction, come see me. All right, all right. Michelle.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Need a job. She got her. I know her. She hired my uncle. You know.

[DJ Envy]

Jesus Christ. Sher McKissick, thank you so much for joining us. Pick up the book. The Black Family who Built America. Breakfast Club. Good morning.

[Cheryl McKissick Daniel]

Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up. The Breakfast Club. Finish or y' all done.

[Podcast Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast.