INTERVIEW: Daniel Caesar Talks 'Son of Spergy,' YesJulz, Trump, Resenting Societal Systems, Marriage + More

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Breakfast Club – Interview with Daniel Caesar
Date: January 16, 2026
Hosts: DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne tha God
Guest: Daniel Caesar

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Overview

This episode of The Breakfast Club features an in-depth and candid interview with Grammy-winning R&B artist Daniel Caesar. The conversation navigates through the inspirations behind his latest album "Son of Spurgeon," his relationship with his Caribbean family, his thoughts on societal systems like marriage and capitalism, the backlash from past controversies (notably YesJulz), his take on Trump and politics, and his ongoing journey with identity, faith, and self-honesty. The dialogue is philosophical, humorous, sometimes raw, and deeply introspective, shining a unique light on Daniel Caesar’s complex personality and worldview.

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Main Themes and Key Insights

Daniel Caesar’s Background and Musical Origins

• Family Roots:
  Caesar’s father, nicknamed “Spurgeon” for his preacher-like demeanor, is Jamaican and met his Barbadian mom in Canada.
  • "Anytime he's talking, he'll go into a sermon at any moment. There's a famous preacher called Charles Spurgeon, so they called him Spurgeon when he was young." (04:02)
• Musical Path:
  Influenced by his family and a push to excel outside academics, Daniel describes couch surfing and odd jobs after refusing the life his father envisioned for him.
  • "My dad did not kick me out of the house...he was like, you're not just going to sit around here and sing songs and not go to university...So I was like, okay, I'll live outside." (06:27)
  • He relates artistry to a sense of personal revolution and resistance to systemic expectations.

On Identity, Internalization & Personal Growth

• Internal Conflict:
  Daniel emphasizes his habit of internalizing others’ behaviors rather than confronting them, which builds pressure and eventually leads to emotional outbursts.
  • "I internalize everything...When people exhibit behaviors around me...I just assume that's who they are...And then I put the responsibility on myself...But then you don't realize what you sacrifice in yourself by not addressing some things when they happen." (11:15–12:19)
• Patterns and Self-Worth:
  Patterns in relationships often reflect unresolved childhood desires, particularly for parental approval.
  • "Somewhere in there...there was a longing for something that you wanted from him...but it wasn't like his approval." (15:12)

Societal Structures, Marriage, and Monogamy

• Questioning the Nuclear Family:
  Daniel expresses skepticism about the Western, nuclear family structure, seeing it as both isolating and possibly unnatural—especially for Black families.
  • "Does it ever feel like...the way that we structure societies in the west, the nuclear family, does it ever feel like that's not natural to people?" (16:00)
• Marriage & Honesty:
  At 30, he is upfront about feeling unprepared for marriage and monogamy, contrasting societal expectations with his own honesty and emotional limitations.
  • "It feels very irresponsible of me to make that promise [of marriage]...I don't think so... But I'm like, am I gonna be ready when I'm 50? Where am I?" (18:04)
• Art vs. Family:
  He recognizes a tension between dedicating himself to his art and potential commitments to family.
  • "For me, I have dedicated my life to making art. And sometimes it feels as though it's like they're kind of..." (23:27)

Resentment Toward Societal Systems

• Cynicism About Systems:
  Caesar distrusts societal structures, viewing them as exploitative and unfavorable to marginalized people.
  • "All the systems that we exist in...we are the least valuable people in those systems. So it's like I resent all these systems, all these structures." (27:36)
• Individual Rebellion:
  He posits that simply being oneself can be revolutionary when social conformity is expected.
  • "Sometimes just being whoever you are is the act of...the rebellion or is the revolutionary act." (28:06)

The YesJulz Controversy & Lessons Learned

• Experience with Backlash:
  Daniel revisits defending YesJulz amid accusations of cultural appropriation and explains his internalization and naivete at the time.
  • "I internalized everything...You guys should internalize everything. And then you'll get all this..." (35:26)
  • Admits growth: "As time has passed, I'm like, oh, they were 100% right. That is what...When you accept this type of behavior from people...You are giving up your own dignity, which I never really...It never crossed my mind." (35:56)
• Impact:
  The backlash was transformative, making him more guarded and now more honest as an artist.
  • "It forever changed the trajectory of my whole life, you know? Really." (48:03)
• On Being Called a “Coon”:
  He reckons with criticism and the realization that internalizing racism can be detrimental to self-worth.
  • "They call me a coon. And I was like...Have I been sacrificing my dignity by internalizing things?" (46:12)

Views on Politics, Trump, and Society

• Trump and Cynicism:
  Daniel finds Trump “objectively funny” and inevitable given America’s history, claiming not to support him but suggesting Trump is a symptom of deep systemic issues.
  • "I think Trump was inevitable...This is how the country was started. It's a criminal ass...It was eventually going to get here." (32:28)
• Disengagement from Politics:
  He finds politics downstream of deeper, possibly spiritual issues.
  • "Politics is downstream from a deeper issue, a spiritual issue...Mind proceeds spirit precedes form." (42:45)

Artistic Process & The New Album (“Son of Spurgeon”)

• Spiritual Reckoning & Confession:
  The new album is described as a spiritual reckoning expressed through confession.
  • "I personally always get to spiritual reckoning through confession...That's just something I like to do." (58:46)
• Songwriting & Connection:
  Art is his chief source of value and connection, sometimes at the expense of relationships.
  • "Being an artist...you can't be a good artist and not be selfish. It’s about...how I feel about it...and I process it..." (56:19)

On Love, Relationships, and Co-Parenting

• Artifact of Love:
  He has a complicated relationship with the idea of fatherhood, co-parenting, and the desire for a tangible “artifact” of love without the structures of marriage.
  • "Because I want an artifact of our love...It's more of a...I don't think I can be married. I just want to co parent." (57:21, 59:07)
• Self-Awareness of Toxicity:
  Daniel freely admits selfishness and sees it as tied to both his artistry and his approach to relationships.
  • "Because I'm selfish...that's being an artist." (56:15)

Philosophy, Spirituality, and Human Connection

• On Human Connection and Existence:
  He toys with ideas of solipsism, shared spirit, and the pain/beauty of human relationships.
  • "The separation you think you feel...is Mercy...there is only one spirit...I'm a figment of your imagination...But also, I am a figment of your imagination. I’m not real. We’re...alone. There's nobody else here." (48:28)
• Marriage & Modern Society:
  He critiques changing dynamics, the blurring of old societal roles, increased divorce rates, and questions if modern monogamy is realistic.
  • "I personally think that there was farther back in society...There were women that you court...and there were prostitutes and there was a clear distinction in society." (64:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Internalization and Growth:
  "I just thought I was being honest with myself, and I didn't realize how... much anger and hatred I had in my own heart." (48:12)
• On Family Systems:
  "Why can't I just promise someone what I know what I believe that I can promise them?...We get divorced and then we still end up doing this anyhow." (61:16)
• On Artistic Honesty:
  "You can't be a good artist and not be selfish. It's about...how I feel about it." (56:19)
• On Resisting Systems:
  "All the systems that we exist in, like, we are the least valuable people in those systems...I resent all these systems, all these structures." (27:36)
• On Human Connection:
  "Life is about human connection. I write songs about human connection. And that's why...marriage is scary to me because it's like...no more connections." (51:33)
• Artifact as a Metaphor:
  "Because I want an artifact of our love." (57:21)
• Philosophical Reflection:
  "Who knows is actually always the right answer." (66:51)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:14 – Daniel Caesar Introduction
• 04:02 – Explanation of “Son of Spurgeon” and family background
• 06:27 – Daniel’s departure from home, couch surfing
• 11:15–12:19 – Struggles with internalization and unlearning
• 16:00–19:02 – Critique of nuclear family, marriage, and isolation
• 27:36 – Cynicism about social systems
• 35:26–37:05 – YesJulz controversy revisited and lessons learned
• 42:45–44:00 – Disengagement from politics
• 48:03–49:30 – Emotional impact of backlash, philosophy on oneness
• 56:19 – Admittance of selfishness as an artist
• 57:21–59:07 – Artifact metaphor for co-parenting and love
• 64:10 – Historical perspective on marriage, women’s societal roles
• 66:51 – “Who knows is always the right answer.”
• 68:16 – On spirituality, "Who's gonna be my Jesus?"
• 68:51 – Advice to his younger self

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Overall Tone & Takeaway

The interview is a probing, open-ended exploration of Daniel Caesar’s mind, marked by his candor, philosophy, vulnerability, and wit. Caesar resists societal labels and institutions, questions inherited systems, and remains steadfast in pursuing honesty—both in art and in life—even at personal or professional cost. The conversation is sprinkled with humor and humility, displaying Daniel’s willingness to self-examine and evolve in real time.

For anyone unfamiliar with Daniel Caesar or his journey, this episode serves as a window into the soul of a modern artist wrestling with love, family, societal pressure, and the meaning of selfhood.

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Suggested Listening (Songs from Album):

• “Have a Baby with Me” (69:43)
• “Who Knows” (69:47)
• “Rain Down” (70:03)

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Final Word:
"If you're really doing this life thing right, you remain open and you allow yourself to change and evolve. Who knows is actually always the right answer." – Charlamagne tha God & Daniel Caesar (66:44-66:51)

Transcript

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[Charlamagne tha God]

Every day I wake up.

[Daniel Caesar]

Wake your ass up.

[Charlamagne tha God]

The Breakfast Club.

[DJ Envy]

Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy. Just hilarious. Charlemagne, the guy. We are the breakfast club. Lon LaRose is here as well. We got a special guest in the building.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes, indeed.

[DJ Envy]

Ladies and gentlemen, Daniel Caesar. Welcome.

[Daniel Caesar]

Thank you.

[DJ Envy]

How you feeling.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

It?

[Charlamagne tha God]

How are you, man?

[Daniel Caesar]

I'm great. I'm great. I. I just got out of 48 hours of stomach. Not stomach flu. What's the other one?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Oh, man, bad.

[Daniel Caesar]

A bad sandwich, so I feel. I feel renewed. I feel like a new person.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Detox.

[Daniel Caesar]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[DJ Envy]

You sure? It wasn't a stomach? But, you know, the stomach virus was going around.

[Daniel Caesar]

I've been hearing about that. But it was like a day.

[DJ Envy]

A day? Yeah. That's the same thing you ate.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What a talented R and B singer you are.

Yes, you are.

[DJ Envy]

Absolutely.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I was listening to Son of Spurgeon. First of all, explain the title. Son of Son of Spurgeon. Spurgeon is how you pronounce it. Spurgeon. Okay.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, that's my dad's. My dad's nickname. He's from Jamaica, and he likes to. Anytime he's talking, he'll. He'll go into a sermon at any moment. There's a famous preacher called Charles Spurgeon, so they. They called him Spurgeon when he was young.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I want to.

[DJ Envy]

I want to go back a little bit, if y' all don't mind. For people that don't know who Daniel Caesar is, you're from Canada. And tell everybody how you got into the music industry and your background. Your father, you said, is Jamaican. And break it down a little bit for people that don't know.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, my dad was a singer back in Montego Bay when he was. Gospel singer? No. Well, I mean, he always sang in the church since he was little. My grandmother heard that he could sing from school, and she's like, if you're not singing in church, I'll beat your ass. So. But he was, like, doing dinner music and stuff at hotels. Jamaican tourism industry, and so he ends up in Canada Meets my mom from Barbados, and they both meet in Canada. And then I'm, like, singing. When I was little, it's kind of just all of. I used to just run around the house. I used to play by myself a lot. I would just, like, sprint up and down the house, and I'd be singing to myself or whatever. And then. Yeah. And then high school came around, and you started smoking weed and going. Friends have studios and. It's a long story. It's a long story. But, yeah, around, like, high school, I got kicked out of school, and I was like. It was around that time where I was like, the way this whole thing is set up, like, I'm not about to. I hate school. I'm really bad at school. I don't enjoy school. And then I was like, oh, my God, one day I'm gonna finish school, and then I'm gonna have to get a job. And that's, like, school, too. So I'm like, am I gonna do this for the rest of my life? And I'd rather die.

[DJ Envy]

Jesus.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Jesus Christ.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, I'm serious, though.

[Charlamagne tha God]

So you don't really feel like that. You felt like that at the time. You don't want to die?

[Daniel Caesar]

No, I don't. I don't. No, no, I didn't mean that literally. I would rather die. I don't want to die. I'm gonna do what I want, Live free.

[Charlamagne tha God]

It's.

It's.

[Daniel Caesar]

It's. Yeah. Doing what I love.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay.

[Daniel Caesar]

I don't just want to die for. No, no. If you're gonna make me do something I don't want to do, I'll give me liberty or give me death. You know what I mean?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Oh, okay.

[Daniel Caesar]

Okay. Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That was, like, revolution, though. Not like, you know.

[Daniel Caesar]

I mean, sometimes being alive is a revolutionary act that is very, like, you know, true. People don't want you. They're trying to control you or make you be something.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, that.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah. Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

So is it true that your dad kicked you out the house and that's when you really took it serious?

[Daniel Caesar]

No, my dad did not kick me out of the house. My dad did, which I respect. As time passed, of course, he was like, you're not just going to sit around here and. And sing songs and not go to university?

[DJ Envy]

And he had a heavy Jamaican accent, I'm sure.

[Daniel Caesar]

So it was only when he's angry. He actually has a great telephone voice for getting jobs and stuff like that. Yeah. He's like, you're not just gonna sit around here in my house and, like, not participate in this world that's going on outside the way that we think you should. So I was like, oh, okay, then I'll. You know, he's very strong willed. I'm also very strong willed. So I was like, okay, I'll live outside. It's honestly, you know what's crazy? I think if I was alive, like, I don't know, 500 years ago, I would have been like a pirate or a vagabond or something. You know what I mean?

[Charlamagne tha God]

But you want to be homeless.

[Daniel Caesar]

I don't want to be homeless. I just didn't want to do anything that I didn't want to do.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But I'm saying where you. Did you leave the house and go be homeless though?

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, I was on the streets. I was like couch surfing. You have friends and then there's always a home to. It's just like I was very strong willed. So it's like there's always a home to go back to. But I have to go back under my father's rules. My father's. You know what I mean? I respect it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Respectfully, you have a homeless aesthetic, but.

[Daniel Caesar]

I mean, it's probably a thing going on.

[Charlamagne tha God]

No, no, no, no. I love your bro. It's definitely not your hair. I love your hair.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, it's.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Why.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, no, I did it on purpose.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You are not strong willed. You are stubborn. That's what it was. You're stubborn as hell because you told Joe, dad. How old were you when you. When your dad gave you that ultimatum?

[Daniel Caesar]

17.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay.

[Shopify Advertiser]

That's around the age where you like, think you know all the things.

[Daniel Caesar]

I mean, from my perspective, it turns out I did know. You know what I mean? Because he was telling me I wasn't wrong.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Okay, Gotcha.

[Daniel Caesar]

And I believe. And I also believe, like they raised. They didn't raise a dummy. Right? So it's kind of like I think everybody deep down knows what they should be doing and then the universe is going to keep throwing things at you to suggest that you shouldn't be doing that. Got you to scare you. And like, being homeless or being poor is very scary.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Did you sing for like change and stuff?

No, no, no.

Oh, okay, okay.

[DJ Envy]

It wasn't.

[Charlamagne tha God]

It's called on the corner.

[Daniel Caesar]

I don't want to. Don't over dramatize that. I had. I was a dishwasher. I would wash this.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Went on on his own and figured it out.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, figured it out.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But I want to hear about the signs that told you you should be singing. I know the signs that, you know, told you the things you shouldn't have been doing. But what were the signs that showed you you should be singing?

[Daniel Caesar]

My. I remember in. I went to, like, this. This boarding school, like, Christian Academy. And so on Friday nights, it was Seven Day Adventist, so on Friday nights, we would have vespers, kind of like Shabbat sort of situation. And I remember it was around that time when I was like, all right, I used to play sports. And I was like, all right, I'm not that great at sports. So I'd started singing and playing the piano, and they had me perform at vespers, and I sang this song. And I not even joke. I feel like 30% of the. Of the people in the audience were, like, sobbing. And it was cool. It was very. And it was like, guys, girls. Some guys who. Their whole thing was like, I'm tough, you know, like, whatever. And I was like, oh, this is. This is interesting. You know, like, the power was. Was. I was like, oh, this is what I'm good at. I'm useful at this. I'm valuable when I do this, so why not just do this so I can feel valuable all the time, you know what I mean?

[DJ Envy]

Did your pops. When did your pops come back and be like, you made the right decision, or has that not happened yet?

[Daniel Caesar]

It has. And, I mean, probably, like, I've played some pretty big shows. You know, they were at Madison Square Garden. That was one of them, probably when we did in Toronto, Budweiser Stadium or not stadium. It's not a stadium. It's a amphitheater. But it was just all those people singing the songs in here. He was like, okay, I. I got it now.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And you honor them. You honor them, you know, by naming your album Son of Spurgeon. His face on the COVID Yeah.

How does he feel about that?

[Daniel Caesar]

You know what? He's so. He's just such a. Interesting guy. He's so cool. But what he did. I put out a letter talking about my experience with him before that came out. And that was the thing that really got him emotionally. But he's. You know what I mean? He's not like, yeah, I'm your dad. Yeah, you should. It's about time you put me on.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You know, you've been very open about, like, your struggles with identity and faith and self worth. I wonder at this point in your life, who. Who is Daniel Caesar still unlearning to be.

[Daniel Caesar]

Sorry. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I internalize everything. So that's kind of how I Move to the world. I kind of. I think it's like, because my dad is such a. He's an immovable force. So if I want something and I want to change his mind, you just can't. So you're like. When people exhibit behaviors around me in the world, I just assume that that's who they are. I don't, like, I don't believe in, like, hey, what you did made me feel this way, and maybe you could change it, but no, that's who you are. I'm either gonna. And then it's like, I don't like that. Because then the next time you do it, I either have to be like, all right, I guess I'm just gonna take it now, or I'm eventually, I'm just gonna have to separate from you, you know? So that sort of confrontation, it's like people are going to be who they.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Are.

[Daniel Caesar]

Until you decide what you're going to do about it. And it's. It's. There's violence or there's emotional violence, or there's running away.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Detachment.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

Or detachment. And so I just always kind of went through the world, like, some people are like this, some people are like that. Then you internalize it. And then I put the responsibility on myself. How am I going to get around this? How am I going to not let that stop me from where I'm trying to go? But then you don't realize what you sacrifice in yourself by not addressing some things when they happen in front of you. You know what I mean? And it's like. And then you real. Like, I am a crash out, you know? And sometimes it kind of just jumps out of me at the wrong times because I'm not addressing the things when I'm supposed to address them, you know? And then you're just like. And you. Sometimes. And then you. You think that makes you a good person by not trying to control other people. And then the weight becomes too much, and then you, you, you. You crash out. And then you're like, damn, I wonder how many times I've hurt people that I care about because I was living my life in this way that I thought was right. You know what I mean? Because it Usually you. You go to work, then your. Your. Your asshole boss or whatever is. Is putting a on you. And then you take it, and then you go home, and then your kid asks you for the new PlayStation and.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You yell at him. Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

You know, and so it's just kind of like the context of the world we live in. It's Just like it is capitalism. It is like somebody's, somebody's got to get screwed at the other day. It's, it's exploitation. This whole shit is built off of exploitation. Someone's got to get it. And usually it's the weakest, most genuine, kindest, friendliest person.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I wonder why you internalize, I guess, other people's though, because, you know, I, I love the four agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. And one of his agreements is don't take anything personally because usually when somebody does some to you, it has nothing to do with you. And exactly to what you just said, something that's going on with, with them 100%.

[Daniel Caesar]

But then sometimes it's also like pattern recognition, you know, like, why do you.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Keep attracting these type of people?

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, it's like, what about me makes it feel like it's because I, because it's almost naivete where it's like, oh, if I go around through the world and I treat people with respect, then people will respect me. Right? Isn't that how it works? And then you're like, oh, no, sometimes you have to make people scared of you. And it's, it's a Machiavellian, like fear is stronger than love, you know, Is.

[Shopify Advertiser]

There a part of it too that like, maybe is there like a longing for something from those people? Because like you mentioned patterns and are those patterns hurting you when you continue to see them happening? Because you're trying to figure out why you're not worthy of that changing.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, I think that was very good. I think so.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Because you mentioned your relationship with your dad a lot.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah.

[Shopify Advertiser]

And in your letter you talk about how he would warn you through, he would talk to you through stories and warn you about how the world was. And he's like very stern and very strong. Somewhere in there it feels like, you know, there was a longing for something that you wanted from him that he tried to give you, but it wasn't like his approval.

[Daniel Caesar]

Right?

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

Which is the oldest story, you know what I mean? And it's just, but this, this, this record, 100% true. And this record is kind of just like I know that man very well. And in all things he tries very hard, you know what I mean? He's a very principled man, he's an honest man. But just some things.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay, okay, get into it.

[Daniel Caesar]

There are just some things, you know, like dad's dry, but there's just some things that, okay, my actual. This is all connected, I promise. My actual, real theory or real beef is just like, does it Ever feel like. Like the new. The way that we structure societies in the west, the nuclear family, does it ever feel like that's not natural to people? Like. Like, you know what I mean? Like, all the. All the people that I know that are good at monogamy are good at, you know, just that sort of nuclear family are white, you know, and so I'm just. I disagree with that.

[DJ Envy]

What do you mean?

[Daniel Caesar]

No, all the people I. I'm talking about personally through my life. You know what I mean? And so this. I. This excites. This topic excites me a lot.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Okay.

[Daniel Caesar]

And I'm just like. It's so much responsibility to put on one man in a house.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What, to be like.

[Daniel Caesar]

Well, for. I'm speaking about. For me. Yeah. I would say to be faithful. I'm 30.

[Charlamagne tha God]

30, okay.

Okay.

You still got a different type of dick to us.

[Daniel Caesar]

And that's. But that's what I'm saying.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah. So it's like you're. You're faithful. That man now.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Now. But.

[Daniel Caesar]

But there was a time you're. You're supposed to provide. You're supposed to go out and deal with all this in the world that you're protecting your family from your girls. You're supposed to go out, provide, deal with all this. Protect. Yeah. And someone has, like, gets to tell you what you can and can't do with your dick as well. You know what I mean?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Like, I don't think it's about somebody telling you what you can and can't do when you, you know, decide to make vows with a woman and you tell God, this is the woman that I want to spend the rest of my life with and be faithful. You made that commitment.

[Daniel Caesar]

Exactly, which is why. And there I have a woman in my life that I. That I love and I care about very much. But if she feels irresponsible. No, she's not.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay.

[Daniel Caesar]

She's not. But it feels very irresponsible of me to make that promise.

[DJ Envy]

Because you're not.

[Daniel Caesar]

I. Yeah, I don't think so. But I'm like, am I gonna be ready when I'm 50? Where am I? You know what I mean?

[DJ Envy]

But that's honest, though. But that's the way you should be. And most. Most people our age wish we would have been that honest a long time ago.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's the level of emotional intelligence a lot of us didn't have.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, but I just. I just think. I just think, like, so much in the society in which we live is counterintuitive. I'M like, what were we doing before imperialism, before colonialization, when we were, you know, wherever we were on the, on the globe, living unbothered by anybody trying to take or exploit or do anything. Is this how we set up our families and how we set up our communities?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Like, you can go to other.

[Daniel Caesar]

One man, one woman, children, house, neighbors, stay over there. Don't talk to strangers. Like, you know, all this sort of is, Is this natural? Is this the way we.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Like isolation?

[Daniel Caesar]

It's so isolated. You know, you're in a. You're in a home in the suburbs and you have a car and you have a backyard, and all this is happening in everybody's homes. And we're supposed to go out and like, not talk to each other. Look how kids behave. They're. My mom takes pills to go to. They're on the, at the, at the park, talking about. My mom does this. They. They want to connect. They want to go out and whatever. And we're, we trained them from young. No, your neighbor is not your friend. That's the thing these societies. There's too many people, and you get on the bus and you might get stabbed in your neck or something, like, because there's no trust because everybody. You know what I mean?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Ayan Levonza was here. She talked about intellectualizing spirit. And I think that's what you're doing right now. You're. You're intellectualizing your spirit. When you should just feel, if, if what you feel is true to you, then let that be cool. If you don't feel like you're ready to settle down with one woman at 30, it's okay. And be honest with that woman. There's nothing wrong with that.

I think it's more than that, though, for you. I think it's the whole thing, like, it's, it's deep.

[Daniel Caesar]

I'm doing that. There's. It gets.

[Shopify Advertiser]

What was your deeper like growing up?

[Daniel Caesar]

It was. Honestly, it was, it was great. It was a Caribbean household. Do you know what I mean? But it was like. Do you know what the thing was? Because my. I have the same experience as so many other people that look like me. I was the one Caribbean household on us. I grew up on this, this, this private high school academy. My parents, my dad worked there. Right. This was a white school, white town. White, white, white, white, white, white, white. And so I'm the only Caribbean family on this street where all the rich white kids live. Yeah, they weren't even. They weren't even rich. It just felt like they're Rich because they all had cottages and shit, but they were. Everyone's making the same amount of money. Yeah, and. Yeah, and so it's, it's, it's purely just like everyone, everyone got. Gets beat as a kid, but like when you live on that street, you're the only one that gets beat, you know? And then all these things feel so much more egregious because of, because of proximity to what everyone's living like around you. You know what I mean? I think I get older.

[DJ Envy]

Was your dad. Was your household growing up a tight whole? So it was just your mom and your dad and you seen that union that you looking for?

[Daniel Caesar]

100. Yeah, 100. 100. But I also see what is sacrificed in oneself to sustain that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

So you have conversations with your father, though, like, about, like, about that. Have you had conversation? Did he tell you that he was faithful to his wife? I mean, I don't know.

[DJ Envy]

Did he say he was happy?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Right.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, but it's. It's kind of like there are just some things sometimes I look at, like you, like, like married couples and stuff like that. If it almost feels like a. Like a big conspiracy where it's just like, we're married, so of course we're happy because we're married and everyone should want marriage. The whole society is structured, is based off of people getting married, having families, going out to their job and what. You know what I mean? So even if you're not. So it's like the real, the reality is like as, as over time, as women get more rights in society, divorce goes up. So it's like everybody's happy. But is everybody happy if everybody's getting divorced? My parents are still together, mind you, right. And they love each other and they respect each other. But I just. Sometimes I think. And I'm just like, I know because. And I'm the same as my dad sometimes it's like he's. He's bound by honor. He's a man of his word. You know what I mean? And so it's like, you are my kids. I'm not going to run out on you. But you can't. You can't lie about what's going on in your head. Like when you come home and you're like, bro, this shit again. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm doing the job because I'm bound by honor to do the job, but I would rather be out being a person, being free, running around.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I get what you're saying, but I mean, marriage is hard work. Like, nobody ever said it wasn't. Yeah. I think when you have. You have conversations with married couples, like, yeah, there's. It's hard, it's tough. You know what I mean? You're gonna have your good days, you're gonna have your bad days, but you.

Have to want to do it, though.

You gotta want to do it. Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

And for me, I have dedicated my life to making art. And sometimes it feels as though it's like they're kind of.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But you're also only 30, though.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, you're very young. But you know what? Somebody said this to me yesterday, right? They were doing my kids here, and she said, you know, I'm surprised to see you like this with your kids. And I'm like, well, what does that mean? She was like, I do. People's here all the time, and usually the breadwinners make money. When they come home, they go in their little cocoon and they don't want to see their kids. They was like, but you help your kids with homework. You pick them up, you take them to dance. You this, that and the other. Because I have a responsibility to my kids. I love them. It doesn't feel like a job. It doesn't feel like I'm coming home and, oh, fuck, I gotta do this again. No, that's why I had those kids. That's why I love those kids. There are some people that feel differently and say, you know what? I'm more into my art. I need to create. You take care of the kids. But those are the kids that are usually, you know, don't have a father, need a father figure, have those type of traumas and have those type of problems. I care more about raising those kids than any art form, than any type of money, than anything like that. But I see that. But that's the commitment that I made to my family. I didn't have to. I didn't have to have those kids. You didn't have to have kids or whatever it may be, but once you make that commitment to have that child or that relationship, as a man, you talk about honor. You should do what's right.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Well, let me know if you need another hairstylist for them kids, because she wasn't supposed to say that to you. I'm surprised that you ain't here like that.

You know, when you bring Dominican kids to, like, a black school, I'm black. You know what I'm saying? You know how that goes.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Before we get off this topic, right? Because this whole conversation reminds me of sins of a father. The song that you end your project with. In that project, you say dad would forgetful. He promised a lot. Thankfully, he never got caught. Then you talk about forgetting someone's birthday and someone saying, I'm sorry, dear. And you're struggling between the love and honor that your. Your actual father has and the love and honor that the father above is. Is like. You know what I mean?

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah.

[Shopify Advertiser]

What? So was your dad not like how envy is describing? He was. Is that where some of this, like.

[DJ Envy]

My dad was like that. That's what made me like that.

[Daniel Caesar]

Exactly. And my dad's dad was an orphan from, like, from the slums of Jamaica. The man suffered. I could. I can't around that time, especially with the British over there doing whatever the British do. The, the, the, the. The. The level of abuse that he sustained, I'm sure is horrible. You know, and so sometimes I'm just like, no, my dad, I don't think my. I mean, he probably forgot my birthday. My mom wouldn't forget my birthday. No, no, not like, are you only child? No, no. I got four brothers. Three brothers. But he.

[Charlamagne tha God]

My.

[Daniel Caesar]

One of my favorite stories of my dad is him telling me about what the time that his mom for. He's like, at the dinner table with his mom, and she's like, wasn't it your birthday last week? Or something like that? And my dad was like, oh, yeah, I guess it was my birthday. You know what I mean? And it's such a small little thing, but you're like, damn. And my family, we're not a birthday family. And I always like with girlfriends and stuff. I like Christmas, birthdays. I resent that's like. Because I will buy you. Sometimes I'll be out and I'll see something that makes me think of you, and I'll be like, I love this girl so much. I'm gonna get this for right now. But when birthday comes, don't look at me. You know what I mean? Because it's just like, I'm not subscribing to this.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Now that I agree with. I don't like the expectation. I do this all year round. Like, why do I have to do it on this specific day?

Do it when I.

Maybe not for birthday, but definitely for Christmas. I feel that way.

[Daniel Caesar]

I don't exactly. I don't like the. I. I just don't like that. It's. It's. There's so many variables and exterior pressures on us all the times. And I get. I'm clearly like. I get a little neurotic and like, I'll, like, follow a train of thought. Like, very, very deep.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay.

[Daniel Caesar]

But you know what I'm saying? And it's just kind of like, you.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Don'T like, who are we? Yeah. You don't like systems.

[Daniel Caesar]

No. Especially because all the systems that we exist in, like, we are the least valuable people in those systems. You know what I mean? So it's like I resent all these systems, all these structures, and so me doing whatever the I want and saying things and. And I can be very obnoxious. I can be very irritating and annoying sometimes. But it's just like. Like how this interview started. Sometimes just being whoever you are is the. Is the act of. Is the rebellion or is the revolutionary act? It's just like, you want me to be this. I look like this, so I have to talk like this and dress like this. No. Bro's a little weird, but he's cool. You know what I mean? That's all.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I wouldn't even label you weird exactly.

[Daniel Caesar]

Well, I have.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I mean, you are who you are.

[Daniel Caesar]

And I appreciate that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, you.

[Daniel Caesar]

He just healed something in me right there. He's a little weird, though.

[DJ Envy]

He's weird.

[Charlamagne tha God]

He is definitely a weirdo.

I think people who name call people weird or weird, they don't really know themselves.

[DJ Envy]

I'm weird.

[Daniel Caesar]

I agree.

[Shopify Advertiser]

You caught me weird at least a hundred times.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I've never used that word to you, ever. I'm very descriptive.

He said you dumbart.

There you go, There you go, there you go. I'm very specific. Okay. What part of Daniel Caesar do fans still misunderstand the most? And is that your fault?

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, it is my fault. And definitely my. My cynicism, my sense of humor, you.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Know.

[Daniel Caesar]

Or just my. Yeah, I was starting with my cynicism and my sense of humor, where it's like. Like a. Something that happened a couple months ago, you know, when. When Trump and the ICE things first started happening, you know, a couple of weeks before, you had some concern because.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Jamaica, Barbados, Canada, you just weren't sure.

[DJ Envy]

Shut up, man.

[Daniel Caesar]

I got a great visa, man. I think. But, I mean, he's also.

[DJ Envy]

Who.

[Daniel Caesar]

Nobody's safe. Right, But. But no. Do you remember when. When Trump's Instagram first started to really get crazy and it was.

[Charlamagne tha God]

It's been a decade.

[DJ Envy]

It's been a long time.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, at least for me, when I saw this, like, AI image with the trains, with the planes on people. No, with the. The. The. The. Let's start deportations now or something like that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Oh, okay.

[Daniel Caesar]

And me, I saw that And I was like, whoa, this is really crazy. What are we living in? Like, what is this? And it was, it's funny to me. It's objectively funny. And I get. Some people will see that. They'll see me like the post or something and they're like this guy, you know, And I completely get that. I've kind of had to. I don't have the processing power, the mental processing power to in all moments of my life, think about what the Internet will think about what I do and then move accordingly. It's just too, it's too much.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, you don't have to like it. Like, you can mentally look at something, you know, and, and see all the nuance of it. Right. Know that it's some bullshit, but also maybe kind of find it funny. But you don't have to like it. Like you said, you don't like systems, so who said you gotta like it?

[Daniel Caesar]

No, when I say, I mean press the like button.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But who said you gotta do that? You're only doing that because it's there.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

So you want people to know that you like it or like, do you just.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, no, no, no, no, no. I just, I, I almost like use social media sometimes. Like a boomer. Like, I am one of the New Year's things that I'm doing as I'm getting a life phone. Because I am like, with my phone, it's too much. If I see it and I think it's funny. I press like and I keep scrolling.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I got you.

[Daniel Caesar]

Because it's not even. Yeah, yeah, no, I was preyed upon by the, the. It's. I'm dopamine. I don't like, I'm an addict. I, that is in my. Like, I, I am, I have that type of personality. I'm an addict. So if you get, if you make me feel good, then, then you're in there. You know what I mean?

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

And it's, that's, that's another thing in, you know, growing up, becoming a man, where it's just like, oh my God, they're beset by evil on all sides. Like, if I don't exercise self discipline, I'm cooked, you know.

[Shopify Advertiser]

You're very self aware.

[Daniel Caesar]

I mean, you know, I try elsewhere else. We're doomed out here, you know, I.

[DJ Envy]

Wanna talk about, hey, have a baby by me. Have a baby with me.

[Daniel Caesar]

Wait, wait, wait. I also, before I just, I wanted to be clear that my, that my dad is like, he's. He loved us very much and he was very kind and very Gentle. And when I hear stories about his upbringing, he went from here to here. That's all. I just. I'm just very sensitive. And so whatever it was, you know.

[Shopify Advertiser]

But he wouldn't agree him as a man now. Not as your dad.

[DJ Envy]

Exactly.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And hold on, one more quick thing to clear this up. Do you support Trump?

[Daniel Caesar]

No.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay.

[Daniel Caesar]

I think he's hilarious, though. And I think that America, I think Trump is the president that he. I think Trump was inevitable, and I think what he's. What ICE is going on.

[Charlamagne tha God]

He got what he deserved, is what you said.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah. This is how. This is how the country was started. It's a criminal ass. You know what I mean? It was eventually going to get here. And now it's like I always say.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Donald Trump is the Frankenstein monster of white supremacy.

[Daniel Caesar]

Supremacy. Exactly. Exactly. And now it's like, now ICE is shooting white ladies. Now everyone's scared. You know what I mean? This was always. Eventually these systems that it's like, oh, no, they're over in Africa. Them. You know, they're over in. Over there. Them. Now they're. Now they're shooting suburban white ladies. You know what I mean?

[Charlamagne tha God]

You should. Unlike the post. Oh, my God. But.

[Daniel Caesar]

And you know what? And here comes the main flaw in my character.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Don't tell me what to do.

[Daniel Caesar]

Don't tell me what to do. And don't try. And don't try. And you're 100, right? And will the. The universe. God will. I will. I will suffer. And I have something to suffer.

[Shopify Advertiser]

You said you're getting a, like, phone. Like a phone where it's a light phone.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Light.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, it's like, no apps. I just need to get off. Yeah, it's like you can get music and you can get maps.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You know what you should do? Don't give me a hundred thousand dollars.

[Daniel Caesar]

Don't tell what it is you should not do.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Don't ever give me a hundred thousand.

[Daniel Caesar]

If you can program that into my brain while giving me dopamine, then that would work.

[DJ Envy]

Don't give me a million dollars.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Do you need dopamine?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Don't give me.

[Daniel Caesar]

I'm very poor.

[DJ Envy]

But let's go.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Wait, hold on.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

Wait.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Before you go.

[Daniel Caesar]

Look at me, bro.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I'm very poor.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

Stop.

[Shopify Advertiser]

So, okay, so because you said you don't like to be told what not to do. Right? But you're getting this phone that doesn't have these apps because you're getting the backlash to the things that you're doing.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, Exactly. So it's like I am putting. I Have to put up the parameters for myself. I am going to just whatever. It's the same with dealing with money. I have to set up things with my business manager because I don't. I can't control.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You know yourself. I know you know yourself, so that's.

[Daniel Caesar]

I got to put myself in my own case or somebody else put me in a kiss.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Did the yes, Jules moment kind of get you here too?

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah. 100 yes jewels moment. Oh, it's iconic.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Okay. I didn't know you would call iconic, but. So, yes, Jules was. People were coming for her because she had posted that T shirt that. Or it came back up. The lie a Lot T shirt.

[DJ Envy]

And then she wore a T shirt that said lie.

[Shopify Advertiser]

She had tweet, she had posted the shirt, and people were coming for her. Just talking about the whole cultural appropriation thing like they always do with her. And.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And, oh, she's white, right?

[Shopify Advertiser]

Yeah, she's white. And you got online in a drunk rant, and you basically said, people should leave her alone. She should be able to say what she wants to say. Because we're mean to people, but we act like we don't understand why people have a reaction. I can read your words verbatim, but that was me summarizing it.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, 100%. And I mean, this is great. It was. It was. I internalize everything. And that's. That's the whole thing. Like, I was like, I internalize everything. You guys should internalize everything. And then you'll get all this.

[Charlamagne tha God]

No.

[Daniel Caesar]

And all this is nothing.

[Shopify Advertiser]

I disagree.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I don't like. Yeah, you don't.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But I agree. But that. That was where that was coming from.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Okay?

[Daniel Caesar]

That's what that was. And on and for years after. You know what I mean? It's like, these things aren't going to bull me out of nothing. This is. I believe that, and I still believe it. And as time has passed, I'm like, oh, they were. No, they were 100% right. That is what you. When you accept this type of behavior from people that throughout history have exemplified to you, that they hate you. And then you accept the behavior to get out of the. Of the circumstances that you're in. You are giving up. You are giving up. It's undignified. You're giving up your own dignity, which I never really. It never crossed my mind. You know what I mean? Because it was just kind of like the way it. When I say survival, it's not like I ever feared for my life or anything. Like that. You know what I mean? But it was just like growing up, I had to. I be personally, the way that I moved to the world was like, yeah, bro, white people are like, you know what I mean? They're. That's just, that's just how they are. And I don't really see them because they don't even know half the time. They don't even know the weird that they be doing or the way they move to the world. You know what I mean?

[Charlamagne tha God]

I say that when it comes to legislation, like, we talk about our systems, like somebody had to create the system. So clearly somebody knew what the fuck they were doing. If you put, if you put. If you label somebody only three quarters of a human being. Yeah, that's an intentional choice.

[Daniel Caesar]

Well, okay, yes. And that's in the spirit of self awareness. My. I don't even subscribe to or participate in politics because I'm like, I don't have the, the, the bandwidth, the mental bandwidth, like dealing with. What's the word you just used? Legislation, Legislation, all that stuff. I'm like, I just kind of assume whatever does come of. Of all of that doesn't involve me. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not.

[Charlamagne tha God]

It involves our black asses. It always has. Yeah, but I'm. What I'm. I love what Nina Turner says. You, you may not do politics, but politics is eventually going to do you.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, no, I get, I get what you're saying, but I just mean, like.

[Shopify Advertiser]

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[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

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[Daniel Caesar]

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[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

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[Daniel Caesar]

Best stat of all is that the death rate to children under the age of five dying to hygiene related illnesses has decreased by more than 60% since the day we started.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

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[Public Investing Advertiser]

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[Daniel Caesar]

I don't believe that any level of participation like any level that I participate in politics. Well that actually the country is founded on racism. I just don't think that playing the game of politics will solve the issue. It's like I think politics is downstream from a deeper issue, a spiritual issue. You know, like politics is dealing in the physical. Like, like. But mind proceeds. Mind proceeds proceed. Spirit precedes form. You know what I mean? So it's like what we're dealing with is like what we're dealing with is. Is evil politics. I just don't me personally but I agree with you. But election not enough to be able.

[Charlamagne tha God]

To, you know, you know, elections do have consequences. And I mean when you see, you know, people's civil liberties being rolled back the way that they are now, then you have to disagree with yourself.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, no, but I just think I I personally assumed that whoever, if we put. Kamala. Kamala. Whoever we put in there eventually this is gonn. That's my personal. But that's cynicism. And maybe if we vote right one day America, black people will. Will run America and it'll be our country. I don't. I mean, I don't know. It just doesn't feel. It just doesn't.

[Charlamagne tha God]

What's this got to do with. Yes, Jewels.

[DJ Envy]

Back to yesterday I was asked, I was going to ask Was that your. Is that your homie or was you dating her? What made you stand up for her?

[Daniel Caesar]

That was. I mean, that was like a trauma response. It was just like, I saw. When I look at gesturals, I see an orphan girl that. That. That wants to be black. You know what I mean? And I'm like, damn, that's so mean, bro. She doesn't.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Like, she could come to your club at that time.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Now, that is hilarious. I don't know nothing about us, I guess.

[Daniel Caesar]

I mean, I don't describe the energy just now. I was just like. I felt bad for her, especially being a black kid that grew up only surrounded by white people. I'm like, what? The way she grew up, what is she supposed to do? She's trying to embody what she understands.

[Shopify Advertiser]

But your othering is so different than hers, though.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay?

[Shopify Advertiser]

And I. Yes, Jules.

[DJ Envy]

I think.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Yes, Jules is a. Like, it's not even about her. The conversation that people try to have about her is a bigger conversation about what we allow culturally and what we should protect and all those things. So I think that's where people's frustration comes in when you jump out the window for her. And it's not just about her. You know what I mean?

[Daniel Caesar]

But you said it's about me.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Shopify Advertiser]

He's trying to explain that this is. He understands it now because of his witness.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, no, no, I don't. And I wouldn't. It was a. It was meant to happen. It was meant. And I almost don't regret it, because I don't think I would have come to this understanding of what's going on in myself and in the world around me if I hadn't done that, you know, because I was just, like, internalizing, and I didn't realize. I was like, oh, my God. All this choosing to internalize. They call me a coon. And I was like. I was like, there's no way. Because I think this, this, and this and this. And then I'm like, oh, my God, have I been sacrificing my dignity by internalizing things? Sometimes when someone comes to you the wrong way, you're supposed to crash out immediately on the spot, you know? But there's just been so many moments in my life where someone says something that's a little weird or whatever, and I'm just like, you know, you're fight or flight. And you're like, wait, is that weird? Am I supposed to cuss out everybody in this room right now? Am I supposed to stop? You know?

[Charlamagne tha God]

So basically, you Just saw a girl that wanted to be black, that just, you know, wore a shirt that. It didn't really mean anything to you. Just like, yo, this is just another girl orphan showing she want to be black.

[Daniel Caesar]

It's naive because I was moving to the world, really believing, like, oh, maybe we could all come together and understand each other and be like, spending this much time in America. I'm like, oh, no. But if you think all. All. All lives matter. No, yo, all virality. All virality are all like codes of. Codes of movement to the world. It's like, oh, my God. If you follow it to any thought process, to the very end, it's like, all right, who. Who are we killing? That's actually what it is. Someone's got to die. That's how this whole world is set up. It's like, these group of people believe this and we believe this and we will never agree, so we have to kill them.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Damn.

[Daniel Caesar]

Damn.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

What did you ultimately learn from the situation? Because that's what I'm getting. I'm getting that you learned something from that situation. I did.

[Daniel Caesar]

And what the.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Don't lie a lot.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, I learned. I learned. It's. It's a shit show out here and all that. I. I can. How do I say this? I can only control me and the world around me is. Is. Is of my own creation, you know? Yeah. And you go through things and you experience them, and if you don't want it to happen again, you look at what went wrong and you try and adjust.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

Did the backlash you faced make you more guarded as an artist or more honest?

[Daniel Caesar]

More guarded and now more honest. Because it's all like. It forever changed the trajectory of my whole life, you know? Really?

[Charlamagne tha God]

What do you mean?

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, for sure. Because it was just. I just. I thought I was being honest with myself, and I didn't realize how. First, I didn't realize how much anger and hatred I had in my own heart.

[Charlamagne tha God]

For who? Your own people or.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, no, I mean, for. For the world around me and for myself. It's kind of. It's all like, hey, it's all like, I am you. You are. Yeah, I. It's all the same. It's all flowing. The. The separation that you are a different person than me and you and you have your own life. It's not real. You know, you drop some acid and you're like, oh, we're actually all one. We're all just different leaves on a tree. You know, the separation that we think we feel, it is. It's Mercy. It's mercy. Because the reality is that there is only one spirit, and it's floating out in space and it's alone. The reality of existence is that we're alone and there's only. I'm a figment of your imagination. I am. You're a figment of my imagination. I am actually the center of the universe. None of you guys are real. But also, I am a figment of your imagination. I'm not real. We're. You're alone. There's nobody else here.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You're all just energies moving through time. I. I swear I heard Jim Carrey say something like this before.

[Daniel Caesar]

I mean, it's like where I literally.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Heard somebody say this. Sorry, Jim, if you didn't. But I thought he said something like this before at one of them Golden Globes.

[Daniel Caesar]

The spiritual practices of anyone. Pre colonialism.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Do you do shrooms or ayahuasca or anything like that?

[Shopify Advertiser]

Is that acid you do?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay.

Oh, acid. Oh, you're talking about like that. I mean, like, on the bath salts a little bit.

[Daniel Caesar]

Just.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay, all right. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

[DJ Envy]

Just a little something.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay, cool. That's interesting, though, because I feel that the exact opposite. I feel like, you know, human connection is the only reason that we exist. No, I. I feel like that's my.

[Daniel Caesar]

Whole life based off of that. That's why we yearn so much for it. Because when you connect with someone, even when you. It's like you're long for connection. Like, you see a girl and she's so beautiful, you know, and you go and talk to her and she doesn't like you, and you're like, damn. And that pain that you feel where it's like, what's wrong with me? And then you realize it's beautiful because I really believe in that moment that she's not me. And so I'm not alone. And then you meet. You meet someone and you fall in love with them, and it's the beautiful. And you have a crazy experience together, and it's the same. It's like, oh, my God, I'm not alone in this world. You know, and then things happen and it's. You know, and then you are alone again. And then you. You remember. I feel like I really. Do you feel me? Yeah. No, but it's. Yeah, and then. And then. Yeah, but. No, life is about human connection. And that's kind of the whole way I've structured my life. You know, I write songs about human connection. And that's why. Another reason why marriage Is scary to me because it's like to. To. To choose to marry is to be like, all right, connection. Got it. No more connections. No more.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Because. Because then the connection don't always. That's. That's what we mess up. Connections don't always have to be romantic. Connections don't always have to be, you know, intimate on a sexual level. Connections can be a new friend that you meet. Connection can be somebody that you get in the studio with that's a producer, and y' all connect and y' all create something that's a amazing.

But for him, he's trying to run through him. That's what you're talking about.

[Daniel Caesar]

Run through is crazy. Have you ever. You've never. Like, the. I'm. I am. It's dopamine. The most powerful connection is the connection that is. Is Eros, is agape. You know what I mean? Is all the different types of love, one can experience.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Something, though.

That's what I just told you. Oh, he trying to run through.

Yeah, but you don't always have to do that. Like, actually, to me, one of the most powerful connections is when you meet a woman. Like, you know, all of these women in this room, even from Natina on down, are women that I have met. There's no sexual attraction. These are just people that I consider my homegirls, my sisters. I love them. Sometimes that is a more powerful dopamine hit than having sex.

[Daniel Caesar]

I feel like you're not. Understand. I'm not saying that I can't have. I don't have friends, or.

[Shopify Advertiser]

You're talking about that first feeling when you fall in love, and it's energetic and it's like, whatever, right? But I think. Because they've been married for a lot of time, right? What I'm. What I think you're missing from what they're saying is that even with your partner, if you're just talking about wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend, there are so many different experiences where that same dopamine feeling comes with that same person, just depending on where you are in the relationship, what's happening. It's work, though. And I think people come out of that work to refill that feeling because you think it's only one instant.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's a great point for a single person. I'm not confront. Lauren. That was a good point, I'm sure. You know, playing with me, there's certain points that you get old and you look at your wife sometime and you like, damn, man, I. I hit the lottery. Like, I love my wife, and I've been with my wife all the time.

[DJ Envy]

I'm glad. Absolutely.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I've been with the Same woman for 27, 20.

[DJ Envy]

Let me ask you a question. When you were younger, did you have a lot of girlfriends or were you the. The one that didn't. That because you went to a white school, they didn't appreciate you like they should have?

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, I didn't. I didn't date until ninth grade.

[DJ Envy]

And that's the reason why he probably feels the way that he did. He never really felt accepted when you was growing up as a kid. He never had to love. He never had that friendship.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

Called you ugly, all that stuff.

[DJ Envy]

No, but, you know, but that's. That's the reason. But that's the reason he's acting like. Like he is. Because he never had that love growing up. So now when he's a celebrity, he's a star. He can pick and choose what he slings, whatever.

[Shopify Advertiser]

And even then, though, it gets empty at some point because. And have a baby with me.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

Right.

[Daniel Caesar]

Of course it gets. But.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But then with me in parenthesis.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah. Because that was. It was funny.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's int.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

Was that int.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Like having a baby with me?

[DJ Envy]

Like. Yeah, but not with the other dude. Is it like, what woman left you that you was like, don't leave, please. I'll put a baby and you don't leave.

[Daniel Caesar]

Okay. Okay. No, no. So that's the, like, the girl that I rode my first Freudian about was. Yeah. That was like a whole. That was a whole thing. And. But have a baby is like. It's funny to put it in parentheses. Yeah. Because of the experiences that I had. That's my other thing. Like with.

[DJ Envy]

You.

[Daniel Caesar]

Really? You. Okay, so. Yeah, you guys, you nailed it. It's in relationships, I can't help but feel like it's about controlling what the other person does. I feel controlled when I'm this person. I feel like going over here and doing this or running around and doing that, and you tell me it hurts you, but I'm just being myself, you know? So what do you want me to do? You want me to be somebody else? This is. I didn't get you by being somebody else. I got you by being myself, you know?

[Shopify Advertiser]

But at a part in the song, when you're talking to her, it sounds like she's like, putting her clothes on, she's about to leave. But fig. That's like the physical. But in, like, thinking about it, she's kind of tapping out of the relationship. Right. You're almost like begging her to not at some point, because you realize that you started all these little fires and it got you to this point, and you just want to give her that dream, like what she thought or where she thought you guys would end up. So how. How are two things synonymous? Like, how do you feel? Like that. But then when she's putting on her clothes and she's ready to leave, you're like, no, have a baby with me. With me. Like, let's do this. How is that?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes.

[Daniel Caesar]

Because I'm selfish.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Your ass toxic.

Yeah, he already said he's selfie. Yeah. I'm glad. That's very self aware.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah. Selfish. That's kind of. I mean, that's being an artist. That's the thing. Being an artist is like, that is that you can't be a good artist and not be selfish. It's about. I experience stimuli from the outside world, and I'm not worried about the outside world. I'm worried about how I feel about it. Because then I go to the studio and I. And I do what I got to do and I process it and I go through it. I'm not worried about which is the.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Greatest dopamine high ever for you.

[Daniel Caesar]

It gives my life literal value.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

You know what I mean?

[DJ Envy]

Was there a woman that made you start acting like that? Or when you started being the one that these women started liking, it changed you because at one time, I'm sure you didn't feel accepted.

[Charlamagne tha God]

How you know they like you, though?

Maybe it was rejection, though.

[DJ Envy]

How you know it's not just the fame or the money or the celebrity.

[Daniel Caesar]

I mean, you don't. You don't know. You don't know. It's only over time.

[DJ Envy]

And is that why you being selfish? Like, I don't know why you like me because they didn't like me. So I'm just gonna sling dick to.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Everybody but have a baby with me?

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah. Because I. Because I want an artifact of our love.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I want an artifact. So you ain't ready to have kids.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Jesus Christ.

You don't have any kids, right?

[Daniel Caesar]

No, no, no, no.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

Not in the buns. In the bun.

Okay, so no one's pregnant?

[Daniel Caesar]

No, no, no.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

Okay.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Give them some time to process the question, though.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Oh, internalize.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

Go ahead.

[Daniel Caesar]

That's so interesting. Is artifact that crazy?

[DJ Envy]

Yes.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yes.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Stop in a gift shop at an airplane.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Like a souvenir they call a baby that? Yeah, that's crazy.

Look at my souvenir, yo. He's six today.

Like, what?

[DJ Envy]

We'll holler next year. Christmas oh, you don't do Christmas.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You know, just a.

[Daniel Caesar]

Interesting.

[Shopify Advertiser]

I think once you get through this.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You want to take that text back, though. You sent somebody that you're like, I would like an artifact for my love.

[Daniel Caesar]

You did.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I know you did.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, I've definitely said that. No, said that a bunch of times.

[Shopify Advertiser]

They be eating it up. Would they be saying it back?

[Daniel Caesar]

No, it'll be text. It's. No, no, no. It's crazy. I use. I use that term when I'm in debate about the subject, not when I'm sweet talking, which I guess may be.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes.

[Daniel Caesar]

Now that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes.

Let me ask a question. Is this album more of a confession or a therapy session or a spirit or a spiritual reckoning?

[Daniel Caesar]

I mean, I personally always get to spiritual reckoning through confession. I love the thought of singing it. The. You can say whatever you want when you're singing it. And you can say a lot of things. I mean, a lot of things have been said here today that are insane to say in conversation with strangers. But. And that's. That's just something I like to do.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But it's still conversation, though.

[Daniel Caesar]

You know, it's how you feel, and it's connection. I feel like I'm. I feel, you know. Yeah, I want connection. I feel like, you know, but, yeah, I would say spiritual reckoning. I would say spiritual reckoning, but it's. It's. I'm still caught up on this artifact. I. When I say artifact, I mean, like, I don't mean I want to have a kid and then disappear. I don't believe in that. I'm like my dad, where it's like. Like bound by honor, you know, to something like that. It's just more of a. It's more of a. I don't think I can be married. I just want to co parent.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You said all of that just to say this. I just want you to know.

You just want to co parent.

I give them a copy of your book. Jess has a book coming out called Tell Death to Repent, Black Privilege, Publisher Simon and Schuster, and it's all about co parenting.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

So I just. Okay, so you co parent?

[Charlamagne tha God]

I co parent well with my son's father.

Yep.

[DJ Envy]

So she's married, too?

[Daniel Caesar]

Just. So.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

Oh, you're married? Not married.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But I'm not married to my son's father. I'm married.

[Daniel Caesar]

Your son's father was divorced, or was it just a.

[Charlamagne tha God]

No, no, that was just a relationship. We met when we were, what, 19 or something like that, and I had.

We had a baby on track of their love.

And then. Oh, my God. Master Ashton. You are not an artifact, Ash. But yes, we did have an artifact.

[Daniel Caesar]

His name's Ashton.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And yes, Ashton.

[Daniel Caesar]

My name is Ashton.

[DJ Envy]

Is it?

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah, that's what my mom.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I thought your name was Daniel.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, no, no, no, that was a whole other. My dad was like, if you're not gonna sing gospel music, you can't use my name.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Wow.

[TJ Maxx Advertiser]

Damn.

[Daniel Caesar]

Okay, so. Okay, so you've never been divorced?

[Charlamagne tha God]

No, that's my first time being married. I love it. It's great.

[Daniel Caesar]

Okay.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I've only been married for like seven, eight months though. But yep. So we're newlyweds, but yep. I love it.

Okay, you're gonna read this book. Yes. You can have this.

[Shopify Advertiser]

Advise him to start out co parenting first if he knows that's what he wants to do. Or do you advise him?

[Charlamagne tha God]

No, no, no, no.

[DJ Envy]

We want him to read it, but okay.

[Charlamagne tha God]

No, I wouldn't advise.

[DJ Envy]

He's bringing it back down. You were saying you have a kid. Go action.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You were just saying. Yeah, I. Yeah, you asked.

[Daniel Caesar]

Oh, yeah. No, just like, I am just kind of like, I'm just very anti divorced and I'm just like, why, why? Why can't I just promise someone what I know what I believe that I can promise them, or I could promise them more than I think we could. I should promise them. We get divorced and then we still end up doing this anyhow. How many people are out here speak stuff. Aware and trying to circumvent. And maybe that's. It's. Maybe it's cowardice trying to circumvent the pain or the. You know, but it's just kind of.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Like in the wrong way there. It's like, yo, shortcut, baby. All right, let's co parent right here, right now. Because I know I cannot be. I can't participate in the act of monogamy with you right now. Like, because that's not how I feel. Marriage, it does not serve me. I don't like it. All the things attached to it. I do want a child. I want my own offspring, though. And I would love to co parent with you. That's what it is. So you gotta find somebody that's like you, that is okay with that, to do that with. And there are women, like, all your.

[DJ Envy]

Money in your shoes as well. If you play around with these women.

[Daniel Caesar]

Like that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

They don't want them shoes you got.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, no, no, no. And you. These are live and getting so many compliments on these, but no, no, no.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But There are women who love, who will do that.

[Daniel Caesar]

And here's the thing. Because I've been so honest today, I. I understand that there's probably. It's easy to assume that, that I have a deep. That I don't understand women or like. Or how like I'm a sitting duck for getting exploited by a woman that just wants it for my money.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I don't agree.

[Daniel Caesar]

I've been. I've. I've been. You know what I mean? I. I know I can pick a woman to have a child with. I have values, you know, and they. Sometimes it's like the. That's another thing. It's like sometimes the woman that aligns with my values, I actually find this. Often the woman that aligns the most with my values does not make me feel passion. But she is, She's a very good person and.

[Charlamagne tha God]

A great baby maker.

[Daniel Caesar]

No, no, not even, not even her. It's not even all like, even like she, like not even a sexual thing. It's just like her values. I respect her values. You know. How much time do we have?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay, do your thing.

[Daniel Caesar]

Daniel, I have another call you now. Well, I mean off, off screen, you guys are calling me. Ashton, all you.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay, Daniel, Daniel, Daniel, bring it down.

[Daniel Caesar]

Okay, this is another. I'm filled with theories and you got right now.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I know. I want to hear this.

[Daniel Caesar]

I think one of the major reasons as to why, and people are going to be upset with me for saying this as to why the institution of marriage is suffering so much is because I personally think that there was farther back in society. This is the whole thing. Like with, like farther, farther back in time. There was a clear distinction amongst the classes of women in society. There were. There were women that you court and they don't and they're, you know, I mean, and that you don't have sex before marriage and all this stuff. And then, you know, you do the whole thing. And there were prostitutes and there was a clear distinction in society. And men weren't just like that too.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Tupac said there's a difference between. And hoes and black queens.

[Daniel Caesar]

Exactly.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I don't know if I agree with that, but I understand what you're saying.

[Daniel Caesar]

I also. Because all people are. I'm talking about the systems in which we live. They had to pick. You had to pick all women because all women want to be free and to experience prostitutes. The benefit of being a prostitute is you get to. You're not beholden to all these different rules that the wives have to be Holden to. You could be Free. You can move to society as you want. You know what I mean? However, obviously your life is highly in danger. You know, all these different. Your.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Your extreme as prostitute. Like there's mistresses that feel like. That there's a mistress that feels like, I don't want to be the wife. I'm just happy being.

[Daniel Caesar]

I know. But now we're getting into. To subgroups. If you. If you boil it down, it's like the wife is going to call the mistress a prostitute. Same thing. You know what I mean?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Pretty much, yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

In the hole is a prostitute.

[Shopify Advertiser]

So the girl that excites you that you have a baby with, she's on the courting side for sure.

[DJ Envy]

Or is she on the prostitute side?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Is she a too.

Who knows?

She a toot.

[Daniel Caesar]

Exactly. And this is actually. This is actually where I have to. I. Yeah, you. You stop talking about it because now it's too personal.

[Charlamagne tha God]

One of my favorite songs on the album, by the way.

[Daniel Caesar]

It's also my favorite.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, man, you have one of the most beautiful voices ever. So talented. I'm so glad to meet you.

So that actually might be the most honest song on the album.

[Daniel Caesar]

To me, probably be a waste of your time.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah. Because I think that if all of us. I think that's the problem. Right. Like, all of us act like we know and none of us truly do. We just know what we believe in, whatever moment in time that we're in. And if you're really doing this life thing right, you remain open and you allow yourself to change and evolve. So you'll probably be saying who knows for the rest of your life. Who knows is actually always the right answer. Yeah, that's right.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah. Yeah, that is. Yeah. Very much like, do. Yeah. Do what thou will. Like. Yeah, you. Yeah. Who knows? So you just. Whatever you think you're supposed to do is really the only thing that you can afford to be doing.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And think about all the stuff we stress about that we truly don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like, all of the. All of these meanings of life and where we go after we die, who we pray to, who. All of these different things, who actually knows? Nobody really knows.

[Daniel Caesar]

And. Yeah, but learning to. To. To live with that is special. It's kind of like I've been in this space lately where I'm like. I used to think me thinking so hard and so deeply on things was like, would give me a. A leg up or an advantage and moving to the world. And I'm like, oh, I actually think that's It's. Yeah. Thinking is.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

[Daniel Caesar]

You know what I mean? Because it's. You. You can't control. After a certain point, if you want to control outcomes, you have to be willing to enact violence on others or to lie or to cheat or to steal. So it's just kind of like, yeah, he's gotta move.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes, sir.

On the song Moon, you asked who's gonna be my Jesus.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

How does your dad feel when he hears you say things like that?

[Daniel Caesar]

At this. At this point? He's like. He just doesn't like cursing. He's very Caribbean like that. Every. Everything else, he's like, ah, you know what? He's gonna be okay. He's not a dummy. So he'll, like. He'll figure it out. He doesn't agree, though. Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

This is my last question, man. If you could sit with the version of yourself who first dropped. Freudian, Freudian, Freudian. What warning would you give that young brother and what hope would you offer him?

[Daniel Caesar]

I would tell him there is nothing to fear. And literally just that. And if you are afraid, you can just go and sit down somewhere until you're not afraid, you know? But making decisions and moving to the world afraid is. It's. It's the only way you'll have regrets. I feel making, like, fight or flight decisions. I think I'd have to think about that more. But that off the top of my head. Yeah. Being afraid, it's like. There's no need to be afraid.

[DJ Envy]

You.

[Daniel Caesar]

You're good at your job. Be good at your job and do it.

[DJ Envy]

What do you want to hear of that? Let's get something off off the album on right now. What's your favorite record that you would love the Masses to hear?

[Charlamagne tha God]

I feel like we should play a couple.

[DJ Envy]

We're already gonna play.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Have a Baby with Me.

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[Charlamagne tha God]

Right?

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

That's the single, right? The next single.

[Charlamagne tha God]

So. Who knows?

[Daniel Caesar]

I was gonna definitely. Who knows?

[DJ Envy]

Who knows?

[Daniel Caesar]

Who knows? And then you gotta look up your album to see what song I do. Because I'm. This conversation was very exciting for me, so.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I love that.

[Daniel Caesar]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's good. That's the win.

[Daniel Caesar]

I would say. Who knows? Rain down, rain down. Okay.

[DJ Envy]

We appreciate you for joining us.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Absolutely.

Dan.

[DJ Envy]

Hope it was a great conversation for.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You to come back, man.

Absolutely.

[Daniel Caesar]

Passed the vibe check.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Absolutely. You passed the vibe check. You are a vibe so come back.

When I We might search you when you come back back But.

[DJ Envy]

Daniel Caesar, it's the Breakfast Club. Good morning.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Every day I wake up Wake your ass up the Breakfast Club.

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[Charlamagne tha God]

The.

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[Daniel Caesar]

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