INTERVIEW: Devi Brown On Achieving 'Higher Consciousness', Embracing Grief, Developing Self Mastery + More

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Breakfast Club - Interview with Devi Brown

Episode Title:
INTERVIEW: Devi Brown On Achieving 'Higher Consciousness', Embracing Grief, Developing Self Mastery + More

Release Date:
April 23, 2025

Hosts:
DJ Envy, Just Hilarious, Charlamagne Tha God

Guest:
Devi Brown

---

Introduction to Devi Brown

Hosts: DJ Envy, Just Hilarious, Charlamagne Tha God
Timestamp: [01:04] - [03:13]

The episode begins with DJ Envy introducing Devi Brown as a long-time friend and a special guest. Devi Brown, a former successful radio personality, shares her transformative journey from the radio industry to becoming a healer and spiritual teacher. She explains her decision to leave radio not due to external pressures but because her personal calling led her in a different direction.

Notable Quote:
Devi Brown: "I felt like my purpose was evolving, and I realized that a lot of the skills that I was amassing, like communication, connecting with people, building community, I just kept getting very, very clear direction from God that I was meant to do it differently and use it differently."
[03:13]

---

Devi Brown's Healing Journey

Timestamp: [03:13] - [07:43]

Devi elaborates on her healing journey, highlighting a breakthrough moment during an interview with Kendrick Lamar where she discussed depression and suicide ideation—topics that were not typically embraced on her radio show at the time. When the radio network wouldn't broadcast the deeper conversation, Devi decided to upload it to YouTube, receiving overwhelming positive feedback. This experience reinforced her decision to focus on wellness, healing, and spirituality.

Notable Quote:
Devi Brown: "If someone doesn't get it or, you know, if you have this vision that isn't making sense to everyone right away, you just have to find your people. You just have to keep being your authentic self, and the people that are for you will find you."
[07:43]

---

The Importance of Healing and Acceptance

Timestamp: [10:15] - [15:29]

Devi discusses the themes of healing, acceptance, and self-awareness. She emphasizes that healing is not about eradicating past pain but about changing one's relationship with it. Acceptance plays a crucial role in this process, allowing individuals to transform grief and trauma into wisdom and self-mastery.

Notable Quote:
Devi Brown: "Every single person alive has some layer of narcissistic behavior. That's part of the human expression too. It's some self-focus."
[12:41]

---

Misuse of Mental Health Terminology

Timestamp: [15:29] - [18:41]

The conversation shifts to the commercialization and misappropriation of mental health terms. Devi criticizes how terms like "narcissism" are overused and often misapplied, diluting their true significance. She advocates for deeper understanding and responsible usage of mental health language to prevent manipulation and harm.

Notable Quote:
Devi Brown: "It's dangerous people using certain mental health language that haven't done the work, that don't know the work. It's a manipulation tactic. It can be very harmful."
[15:40]

---

Practical Approaches to Self-Healing

Timestamp: [18:41] - [24:27]

Devi outlines practical strategies for self-healing, emphasizing that true healing requires more than superficial fixes. She discusses the importance of daily practices such as meditation, breathwork, yoga, and energy healing. These practices help regulate the nervous system, enhance self-awareness, and facilitate the transformation of pain into wisdom.

Notable Quote:
Devi Brown: "Meditation is the master healer because it gets you out of your identity. When you're able to get out of all those extra layers, you actually get to glimpse what you are designed to be."
[25:11]

---

Embracing Meditation and Its Challenges

Timestamp: [25:00] - [30:01]

Devi shares her personal experiences with meditation, acknowledging the initial difficulties and emotional challenges it presents. She encourages persistence, explaining that overcoming these hardships leads to deeper levels of consciousness and self-mastery. Techniques like using a mantra or focusing on the breath can aid in developing a sustainable meditation practice.

Notable Quote:
Devi Brown: "Once you settle into it, there's another level to go to. Higher consciousness means a greater ability to be what you are designed to be on earth and to extend love and goodwill and compassion to others for the higher good of all concerned."
[34:07]

---

Purpose, Wisdom, and Acknowledgment of Experiences

Timestamp: [47:21] - [52:25]

The discussion delves into the concepts of purpose and wisdom, stressing that everyone has a unique purpose that doesn't need to be measured by societal standards or monetary gain. Devi emphasizes that true purpose is intertwined with one's lived experiences and the wisdom gained from overcoming challenges. Acknowledging every aspect of one's journey is essential for embodying authentic self-awareness.

Notable Quote:
Devi Brown: "Purpose is simply your lived experience and the wisdom you've gleaned from it. It's the skills you've amassed and it's then using it to serve others."
[47:24]

---

Responding to Public Figures and Mental Health

Timestamp: [54:43] - [57:46]

Towards the end of the interview, Devi addresses the complexities of public figures dealing with mental health issues, using Kanye West as an example. She differentiates between mental health struggles and mental illness, advocating for compassionate understanding and appropriate support for those who are genuinely struggling.

Notable Quote:
Devi Brown: "If you see it through the lens of mental illness, we have to be honest about how we receive and experience people. If someone is ill in that way, perhaps they can't do better."
[55:15]

---

Closing Remarks and Book Promotion

Timestamp: [57:46] - [59:24]

The hosts wrap up the interview by encouraging listeners to purchase Devi Brown’s book, highlighting its themes of living in wisdom, embracing grief, and developing self-mastery. Debbie Brown praises Devi’s authenticity and the profound impact of her work on personal healing and community support.

Notable Quote:
Debbie Brown: "Every version of you deserves grace. Every version of you deserves love. Every version of you deserves that healing."
[52:25], [52:51]

---

Conclusion

In this enlightening episode, Devi Brown offers deep insights into self-healing, the importance of embracing grief, and the journey toward higher consciousness. Her candid discussion underscores the necessity of authentic self-awareness and the transformative power of acknowledging and working through personal pain. Devi’s holistic approach to healing, combining spiritual practices with practical exercises, provides listeners with valuable tools for their own paths to self-mastery and authentic living.

---

Additional Resources:

• Book: Living in Wisdom: A Path to Embodying Your Authentic Self, Embracing Grief, and Developing Self Mastery by Devi Brown
• Podcast: The Deeply Well Podcast on the Black Effect Network
• Podcast Network: iHeartRadio

---

Noteworthy Moments:

• Devi’s transition from a mainstream radio career to a focused healing and spiritual journey.
• The breakthrough YouTube interview with Kendrick Lamar discussing mental health.
• Practical meditation techniques and their role in achieving higher consciousness.
• The dedication of Devi’s book to Mai Haskell, honoring her tragic passing.

---

Final Thought:

Devi Brown’s conversation on The Breakfast Club serves as a powerful reminder of the enduring human spirit and the capacity for growth and healing. Her message encourages individuals to look inward, embrace their experiences, and cultivate a life of purpose and wisdom.

Transcript

[DJ Envy]

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[Just Hilarious]

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[Charlamagne Tha God]

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[Debbie Brown]

Early in the morning. The Breakfast Club.

[DJ Envy]

Morning everybody. It's DJ Envy. Just hilarious. Charlamagne the guy we are the Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building.

[Debbie Brown]

My good sister, longtime friend Debbie Brown is back here.

[DJ Envy]

Good morning.

[Devi Brown]

Good morning y'all. Oh my God.

[Debbie Brown]

How you feeling on book publishing day?

[Devi Brown]

I feel free. Yeah. I feel so free. I've had a lot of anxiety about it for the last few weeks.

[Just Hilarious]

Why?

[Devi Brown]

You know, well, it's like, you know that creative birthing and like there's a lot of like vulnerable stories in it and you're like, did I do that? Should I have done this? But yeah, now I just feel free. It's here, it's done. I'm proud of it. I feel great.

[Debbie Brown]

Living in wisdom, a path to embodying your authentic self, Embracing grief and developing self mastery. Tell us about that title.

[Devi Brown]

You know, I think so. Just like being a healer, being someone that has been on their own spiritual journey for decades and being a teacher, I found that, you know, those are the three things that really give you a feeling of a well lived life. You know, when we're looking for healing or when we're looking for self actualization or self awareness, all the things, whatever we're looking for, when it comes time to grow, it's like ultimately we're looking to be the embodiment of our authentic Self. Self. To get past the performance of, like, who we say we are and actually get to the core. And then all of being alive is to have grief a part of that. You know, every day there is grief. And whether it's losing someone, which I'm sure all of us have, or will, because that's what it is to be here, or it's, you know, the daily grief of bearing witness to everything that's happening, finding a way to embrace that grief is a part of what it is to be. Be human is, I think, a really powerful shift in our growth. And then walking a past path of self mastery, like, looking to always, not necessarily, like, be better or prove things, but to just deepen in what you already are. Like, mastery isn't perfection. Mastery is like the slow process of excellence of self, you know, and only we kind of know what that process is inside.

[DJ Envy]

I wanna go back. For people that don't know, Devi's been here a long time ago. But for people that don't know who Devi Brown is, I wanna start from the beginning. If you don't know. Devi was a successful radio personality, one of the best, and media personalities, and at the top of her game, decided she didn't wanna do it anymore. It wasn't like she was pushed out. It wasn't like she had bad ratings. She just said, you know what? I don't wanna do it anymore. Top of her game. And then she started going on this healing journey. Devi was out in the clubs. She might have got into a brawl or two, but we're not gonna go there.

[Debbie Brown]

A brawl.

[DJ Envy]

Debbie knows what I'm talking about.

[Devi Brown]

No idea what's happening.

[Debbie Brown]

What brawl was Debbie Brown in? I don't remember that one.

[DJ Envy]

It was none. This is a healing journey. So I wanna.

[Just Hilarious]

Her rebirth.

[DJ Envy]

A rebirth I wanna go to for people that don't know. What made you say, you know what? This industry is not for me. I wanna give this up. You were doing radio, you were doing in different markets. You just had a baby and you said, it's not for me.

[Just Hilarious]

At the top of your game, how, like, how did you go from a woman in radio to just like, no, I'm done with it?

[Devi Brown]

You know, I think. And it's not even. First of all, I just have to say. And y'all know this. Like, to me, radio is one of the most incredible, sacred ways to broadcast because, like, you're really in someone's head and body when you talk, right? Like, they connect you with their whole being. It's. I've always Found it to be, like, a sacred responsibility that makes you good at, like everything else. I think I realized that my purpose was evolving, and I realized that a lot of the skills that I was amassing, like communication, connecting with people, building community, I just kept getting very, very clear direction from God that I was meant to do it differently and use it differently. And I felt like I personally was going through so much, like, while I was still on the radio for many years, I was, like, kind of secretly, quietly getting certifications and, like, meditation and breath work and spiritual psychology. Like, it was such a huge part of my off the air life. And I felt like, at least at that time, because I left the industry maybe almost 10 years ago, at that time, there was no blending of the two, you know, And I was having situations where I was having. Wanting to have these deeper layered conversations. And, you know, I was being told by the people I worked with, like, no one wants to hear that. Like, now we can't run that on the air. Like, ask. Ask more questions about dating, ask questions about beef, ask, you know, and for whatever reasons, it's like, what I had to give and what I felt God wanted me to give, it was not valued at the time. And so instead of kind of like sitting in that and. And, you know, just going with the zeitgeist, I was just like, okay, so it's time to leave. It's time to see what else I can be used for. How else does, you know, God want to use me? And it was interesting because there was, like, a breakthrough moment for me where Kendrick had come on my show, and I had known Kendrick for a long, long, long, long, long time. The very beginning of his career. So we would always have really powerful, beautiful conversations.

[Debbie Brown]

That was in Houston, right?

[Devi Brown]

That was in Houston. He's brilliant. He's, you know, brilliant beyond belief. And we were talking about, like, depression on this episode, and we were talking about suicide ideation, and this was 2014, and people in my sphere didn't really see value in those questions or in the way that we were talking about things. So, you know, I was kind of asked, like, hey, you can't. You can't share those parts of the interview on the radio. It's too long. It's too boring. Like, we need to get to the music. And so I ended up throwing it all on YouTube. And I got such a big response. Like, so many people were saying, oh, my God, like, I've never heard anyone talk about that before. And that's how I feel. And then an editor from Vogue magazine reached out to me, like, a couple days later, and they're like, this is one of the best interviews we've seen. Like, we want. We're doing a feature on him. And that was like, my. That was such, like, a breakthrough moment for me. I was like, okay. Like, if someone doesn't get it or, you know, if you have this vision that isn't making sense to everyone right away, you just have to find your people. You just have to keep being your authentic self, and the people that are for you will find you. And that really gave me, like. I was like, okay, I need to do something different. But I wanted to. I wanted to spend my life talking about wellness and healing and health and pain and grief and, you know, all the ways to transcend.

[DJ Envy]

But you were so ahead of your time, and now it's okay. Now people are vulnerable. Would you see yourself coming back to doing radio?

[Devi Brown]

I love radio because you were so.

[DJ Envy]

Ahead of your time. Now we have those conversations, and it's not even a thing we talk about that people are vulnerable. It seems normal almost.

[Debbie Brown]

She got the Deeply well podcast.

[Devi Brown]

Yeah. Black Effect Network come through. Yes.

[Debbie Brown]

And you know, the interesting thing about Dev, and I want people to know this. Like, I met Dev in, I think, 070708. The person DEV is now, she's always been like, this is just, to me, an evolution of who you've always been. You've always been the sane one in the room. The one in the room that people can go to for sound advice. The leader in the room saying, hey, let's go do this. We should be doing this. I've always felt that in you. I've always seen that in you.

[Just Hilarious]

Why you don't work here if you. If you have order.

[Debbie Brown]

She was in New York. Yeah, she was Sway's co host for a while.

[Just Hilarious]

No, I'm saying why she don't work here at Fair east side, Huh?

[Debbie Brown]

I heart dog.

[Just Hilarious]

We got a leader. Good, y'all.

[Devi Brown]

When it comes to healing the way y'all have been healing in this room, I am just so impressed and inspired.

[Just Hilarious]

Thank you.

[Devi Brown]

There have been some beautiful, transparent conversations.

[Just Hilarious]

Yeah.

[Devi Brown]

To your point, though, can I just say, like, about you, like, I know people know this, cuz the people in your life, like, really hold you close and, like, really protect you, but you're just like, an exceptional person and friend. Like, I'm so grateful for who you've been in my life for, like, almost two decades now. And it's like, when we first met, we had nothing. I mean, you were.

[DJ Envy]

How did y'all meet?

[Debbie Brown]

She was working at kday.

[Devi Brown]

Yeah.

[Debbie Brown]

You was the APD at Katie, right?

[Devi Brown]

Yeah. And you were on Wendy's show.

[Debbie Brown]

Wendy was syndicated.

[Devi Brown]

Syndicated. And I would. I used to run the boards on her syndicated show. And we would, like, talk through the mic and on MySpace. And then I think the first time you came to town, like, I picked you up from the airport.

[Debbie Brown]

Dev was like, you and me, we out and literally showed me la. My introduction to LA came through Debbie, Dev, everybody. From Kendrick Lamar to Nipsey Hussle to Glasses Malone. Strong I'm steady Gang was where to eat, where to go. Dev was my tall guy.

[Just Hilarious]

Wow.

[Debbie Brown]

I had to check in with Dev.

[DJ Envy]

That was a person check in with.

[Just Hilarious]

The way you doing.

[Devi Brown]

Keep checking in, running.

[Debbie Brown]

But you. I love the chapter 15 because we're talking about that in a way. Heal and accept.

[Devi Brown]

Yeah.

[Debbie Brown]

Talk to us why that's important, that you have to heal and then accept. You know, that's what we did in this room. We healed and accepted just for who she is.

[DJ Envy]

Don't start her back up and not start her back up.

[Devi Brown]

You know, this is the thing about healing. Right. And I've. I've worked in wellness and well being for over a decade now. And I work with clients directly. I do workshops, I've run retreats. I've had a lot of access to studies and data all around healing, around trauma, around all of it. And I found, you know, from my own journey and with others, it's like there is this misconception that you work on yourself to eventually be rid of everything that's ever happened to you, and that then your life will be perfect, that you'll go to therapy, that you'll do somatic exercises, that you'll meditate, and then one day you're gonna just, like, everything in life is gonna feel so happy. That's not God's design. Right? Like, no fear feeling is more holy than the other. God wants us to know and experience and feel in real time everything that crosses our path. And that means grief, that means joy, that means, you know, jealousy, sometimes anger, that means fear. It's like all of it is part of the human experience. And so when it comes to healing, a huge part of it is also accepting that the past can't change. For some of us, that. That can feel heartbreaking. Right. Like, a lot of things have happened to so many of us. So hundreds of millions in your life that didn't get your consent, maybe that you've never uttered aloud. You know, Sometimes we carry things and we're thinking about and ruminating in thought our whole life about the things that have hurt us. And I think it's important for people to know it doesn't mean you're broken or deficient or not healed because you still remember those things. It's really about changing the way you relate to them. Some things will absolutely never change. But when you heal, it really gets transmuted into wisdom where it doesn't feel like this hard, full, painful charge inside of your body. Every time that memory comes up, you're able to kind of look at it from an observer standpoint and be like, that happened and that really hurt. And God, that was hard. And I have respect for what I've been through. I have self respect for who I am and what I've moved myself through.

[DJ Envy]

When you talk about working on yourself, right, what does that mean for people, right? When people say, I need to work on myself, and then they come back 10 minutes, 10 hours later, I worked on myself. I'm healed, I'm healed.

[Devi Brown]

Oh, my God.

[DJ Envy]

So what does so for somebody out there that says, you know, I need to work on myself, what does that mean?

[Devi Brown]

God, that's such a good question. And like, that I'm healed thing is so funny to me because people will go to one therapy session and be.

[Just Hilarious]

Like, microwavable, I did it.

[Devi Brown]

And it's like, actually, it takes eight to 12 therapy sessions to have like a real, you know, cognitive breakthrough. Or, you know, you read one book and it's like, yeah, yeah, I do this because this happened to me and that's who I am. I think that's self awareness. But when you're looking to work on yourself to transcend your experiences, there's a difference. Like, Instagram has given us so much language, a lot of people are using it to manipulate now.

[DJ Envy]

I hate the language when it's used the wrong way.

[Devi Brown]

Hate it.

[DJ Envy]

I know. Like, it bothers the ish out of me.

[Devi Brown]

Yeah, it drives me nuts. Because it's dangerous. Like, to be clear, it's dangerous people using certain mental health language that haven't done the work, that don't know the work. It's a manipulation tactic. It can be very harmful for people, can be very narcissistic so that none of those things are, like, devoid in the spiritual or the mental health space. All that same stuff still exists. But when it comes to, like, working on yourself, I think at the base level, it's noticing. How do you feel when it's just you with you? If There is anything inside of you that feels unmet, unexpressed, unheard. If there's anything inside of you where you feel anxiety, there is a charge in your chest, or there is a rejection or a cringe, those are things to notice because it's information that maybe something wants to rise to the surface for your review. And I think when we're working on ourselves, it's really about being willing to look at the truth of what is. It doesn't have to be perceived as positive or negative. It's just what is true right now and then being honest with yourself about it. And if we try to avoid those things, yeah, you can move through life. You can probably still have a lot of success in life, but the quality of your life goes down. The quality of your interior world really goes down. And you're not really able to tap into, like, the truth of why you're here, to your purpose to. You know, and this doesn't matter to everybody, but it matters to me. The truth of your connection to God, you know, all of that kind of goes mute and it goes numb when you avoid yourself, when you tap into yourself. I think a lot of people think, oh, it's gonna hurt too much, or I'm gonna open that door and I won't be able to close it. But you're hurting anyway. Right? Like, at least there is an outcome to be had by choosing to direct some of your attention inward.

[DJ Envy]

Well, talk about some of the mental health and mental health things that you've been talking about that I feel have been commercialized to a point where people are using these terms, but they don't really mean it. Right. Yeah, so. So talk about that a little bit.

[Debbie Brown]

About to make Dev go off now.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, No, I want to talk about. No. Cause it really bothers me. Cause people using these terms, and I'm sure they don't even know what these terms mean. Right. Like, you say somebody, you just gaslit me. And I feel like sometimes it actually stops a conversation. Because sometimes when people hear those words, they automatically say, oh, I ain't with that. I'm not talking about that. Especially in a workplace where you can't have a normal conversation if somebody says something. Because now when you hear those terms, that also comes after human resources. You know what I mean?

[Devi Brown]

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's just so much. And I think people should really do, like, a lot of deeper layers of research. Right. Like, I think the Internet is phenomenal in that, you know, it's the last five years our consciousness has raised so Much since the pandemic because we have had access to understand, hey, a lot of people have experienced trauma or a lot of people have experienced life frictions or you know, deeply challenging relationships. But everyone is stopping at like one graphic, right? Like they're stopping at reading one thing or asking chat GPT one question and then they leave it there, you know, and it's like. So I think a lot of terms like understanding, like a lot of people are overusing the term like narcissist or narcissism, right? Not getting your way with someone or someone kind of even being self focused, like every single person alive has some layer of narcissistic behavior. That's part of like the human expression too. It's some self focus. But narcissistic abuse is something entirely different. And those that have experienced understand like you get CPTSD from it, you get PTSD from it, you have changes in your body, your health decreases. Like it is a psychological warfare that is insidious and can dramatically change the trajectory of your life. Now if that level of feeling isn't really happening to you, it may not be narcissistic abuse, you know. And so I think we just need to go deeper into the layers of the things that we're learning. And I will say people that misuse language or use it as tools of avoidance, typically those are the people that, you know, usually are on the other side and fit the other kind of definitions for those things. Behavior is behavior, right? And I think now something I'm excited about is so many of us are spending more time with ourselves, getting more clear, meditating or getting into nature, which really connects you to your intuition, to your gut response in a really deep way. It regulates your nervous system. When your nervous system is regulated, you're able to see things a lot more clearly. You're able to make a lot better choices in real time. And so usually interactions with people like that that are throwing out misused language that are, you know, manipulating, usually you can handle those situations completely different or get away from them a lot quicker.

[Debbie Brown]

One thing you told me one time that you know, makes so much sense and I love the fact that you give so many actual examples of how to do it. In the book you told me that when it comes to the language, you can have the language and know what it is you're dealing with. But a lot of people avoid the actual healing. Yeah, the healing work. So if you, if you read the book, there's a lot of different exercises that can walk you through, through that actual Healing process. Why do you think, you know, people forget the healing part once they go to therapy?

[Devi Brown]

Cuz it's hard, you know, and I think it, and that's the thing that I, I really speak to very clearly in, in my book. It's like all of this is hard. There is no tip or trick to heal from challenging experiences, right? Like I'm not going to tell you, all right? Do this five minutes every day. Yes, five minutes every day will build your capacity, but you need to stretch past the five minutes to, to devote actual real time to the changes you want to see in your life. And so, you know, something I, I talk about in the book is like there's a huge difference between having self awareness and having higher consciousness or being embodied in your self awareness. Self awareness is having the terms, it's going to a couple therapy sessions perhaps or reading a bunch of self help books and saying like this is, this is what happened and this is why I act like this. And this is why this is the this. But it doesn't mean you're changing any of it, right? Like, it doesn't mean you're taking it to the next step to behave differently or to invite in different experiences with people. And that comes through practice, that comes through process. And so in this book I talk about a lot like how to get out of your way. A lot of people have a lot of sophisticated language around avoiding themselves. You can avoid yourself with anything. You can avoid yourself with therapy. You're seeing the same therapist for 10 years and nothing in your life changes what's going on in there, you know, or if you, you know, I see a lot of people avoid themselves with religion. You can be a part of a church, you can go there on Sundays and you can still not know God. You can still not make better choices, right? It is daily practice. It is showing up in your interpersonal relationships. It is having the hard conversations in real time as they come up and just being present with all of it without expectation, you know, without trying to control it or make it go your way. And so in the book we have a lot of practices. Like I teach meditation in the book, we work with mudras in the book, which are hand positions that can really elevate your meditation practice because your hand positions open different energy channels in your body. There is breath work that can be done in the book. And every single one of those practices anchors in the changes that you want to experience because it shows you how to regulate when you do get triggered, when you do have charge. And so Both are needed. You have to have the cognitive and you have to have the somatic. You have to have the spiritual, you have to have the physical. All of it kind of beautifully goes together.

[Just Hilarious]

So you don't think that people can heal themselves, though, like, for instance. Right. Like, let's just save me for, say I'm going through, you know, a lot. I've experienced a lot of trauma, right? And just. Just an example, I'm gonna just use myself, like. And I'm constantly going through therapist after therapist after therapist, okay? I've even changed churches and everything, and nothing, nobody else seems to help me, but I can find that on my own. Like, is there. Do you believe that people can heal themselves without church or without any higher being or without, you know, any type of drug, you know what I mean? Or. Or also any therapy? Like, do you think people can change.

[Devi Brown]

Themselves, heal themselves so in two ways? So based on my belief, I. I think that God has to be a part of the equation. That's my belief. That is my higher being, the God of my understanding. I think we can each have that right. Because God can look and be different for everyone. It doesn't have to be in the confines of any set religion. I'm certainly not within any set religion. But I do think there has to be something that expands your understanding of what all of this is. And I think that that is hard to do without connecting to something that is bigger than you. That piece aside, I would say absolutely, people can heal themselves. I don't think you necessarily even have to go anywhere unless there is another layer of need there. Right. If there is a mental health condition, a disorder, if there are some situations, like really severe trauma that you cannot understand on your own, I absolutely think people should continue to. To find all the resources that can meet their need, jump in and out of them. If it doesn't work, leave it, you know, trust your gut on that. But, yeah, we are our own healers 100% of the time. I think this book, it's about self healing. It's not saying, go, go to this person, go to that person, get this done. I've done a ton of stuff. You know, I've done everything. I've done all kinds of therapies. I have done certifications. I have done a lot of psychedelics. I have done a lot of meditation. I've. I've spoken with a lot of people, shamans, healer. So, so much, so much, so much. But it still comes down, no matter what, to how willing I am to. To be fully Myself, it still comes down, no matter what, to how willing I am to sit with myself, especially in the dark periods and the dark moments and how, how much self respect I can really gather for myself and what I've been through and experience.

[Debbie Brown]

I learned to meditate because of dev. It was December 2020. That was, it was 2020 because it was co. And that was like the first time we traveled and we went to.

[Devi Brown]

That was the best trip.

[Debbie Brown]

It was amazing. Went to Cabo for a week with Dev and like, Dev had like a bunch of activities. What would you call them? Devs Just, it was like a spiritual retreat. It was just a bunch of activities. We were doing yoga and we. I learned how to meditate on that trip. I could not still quiet my brain, have my brain still ever. But for whatever reason in that moment I was able to meditate. And I've been doing it ever since.

[Devi Brown]

It was so amazing. We did, yeah, we did reiki, we did energy healing little mushrooms. We did meditation, yoga.

[Debbie Brown]

Why is meditation so important?

[Devi Brown]

Oh my God. You know, and I think in, in some other maybe wisdom traditions, some people might relate to it, if you call it reflection or if you call it moments for contemplation. But meditation is the master healer because it gets you out of your identity. And our identity is almost a hundred percent made from like all of the culturally created beliefs that we have or our beliefs from our family of origin or, you know, the things that we're influenced by, by society. And so when you're able to get out of all those extra layers of like what your titles are, you know, what the role you play. I'm a husband, I'm a wife, I'm a someone's child, brother, sister, friend. When you take yourself out of all of that, you actually get to glimpse like, what am I designed to be? What, what was God's intention for me of me before I fit into anybody's box or any relationship. And so the thing about meditation and I, I really want to share this. You know, I believe in trauma, informed practice. And it's a little bit different to hold that space within the healing community than if you're not. It's recognizing that a lot of people will have barriers to almost every healing modality that comes up because of some of the things that they may have experienced. So in meditation, you're going through so many layers. And the first time you try, the first several times you try, it could be so hard and frustrating and anger inducing and irritating to sit down and be still. And it could bring up everything and make you feel like you're failing at it. And then you want to stop and then let me go do things I'm actually good at.

[Just Hilarious]

You know, that is literally me.

[Devi Brown]

Yeah, that is.

[Just Hilarious]

I feel like I'm missing out on doing something or I could. I could be doing this with this time or it's not working it, like. So I grow to be frustrated when I try to.

[Devi Brown]

Yeah.

[Just Hilarious]

Meditate, man. So I just.

[Devi Brown]

Smoking and that. Yeah, well, I mean that too. Smoking and meditate is like a great little collaboration and yoga and stretching. But I'm so glad you said that because I think that is almost everyone's response, but especially if you have been through hard things. And what I want everyone to know is that phase passes. And that's part of what doing the work is. Right. It's being patient with yourself and witnessing yourself, especially when you don't want to do it. And it's saying like, God, I'm sitting here and I hate this. This is stupid. I don't want to do this. Breathe, breathe. Okay, okay. Wiggle, release. Open your body. Like, you start meeting those feelings with things that harmonize that experience for you. And part of what you're doing when you do that is you stretch your capacity to be patient with yourself. You stretch your capacity to be present in your life, but you also stretch your capacity for self compassion. So all those little adjustments you make in meditation when you first start, like, connect to your breath, take a deep breath with your eyes closed. Try to look at your nose. That's something that can focus you. Relaxes your body. Okay, I'm getting tense. Lower my shoulders. Release my stomach, Release my breath. You're teaching yourself how to regulate your discomfort. So when we say things like, you know, you know, do it, do it when you're uncomfortable or uncomfortable things stretch you. They only stretch you if you learn how to settle into them. And so that building a practice for your wellness is how you settle into it. Once you settle into it, there's another level to go to. So after you get past that, which you can and will, which I was in the same place, I hated it. I would stop for months at a time and reject it. When I first started my practice, the.

[Debbie Brown]

Beads and the mantra helped me.

[Devi Brown]

Yes. Working with a mala, working with a mantra, a Sanskrit word or something that. That is valuable to you. You know, the next layer would be, you might start crying a lot in meditation. That usually gets people to stop. Right? You might notice that, oh, my God, I'm still like, close my eyes now all these tears come up. The first thing you're thinking is, what is wrong with me? Why is this happening? Well, everything that was suppressed, you know, everything that you haven't had the time to deal with probably for decades now, you're still enough that it has a chance to rise to the surface. It's not bad that it's rising to the surface. It's coming up for your review so you can release it or so you can accept it. So then you get into this kind of like double Dutch cadence with your meditation practice where you're like, okay, I want to pull back. Let me come back in. Like you're, you're in flow, you're going back and forward. And so the more you allow yourself.

[Carlos Miller]

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[Bom Han]

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[H]

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[Devi Brown]

Epic.

[H]

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[Devi Brown]

Are you ready?

[H]

Let's.

[Devi Brown]

To see. Like, I don't want to think about this, but it did happen. And I. I can move through this. Breathe into it. Breathe into it. Grace for yourself. Compassion for yourself. Presence for yourself. You get past that point and it'll take months, it'll take time, it'll still come up sometimes and then you get to the next layer of meditation. And I found that that next level of meditation is when you're actually starting to cross crave it. Like, you're like, okay, let me go sit down. I finally get to be quiet.

[Just Hilarious]

Yeah.

[Devi Brown]

I finally get to be still. I feel so good when I breathe. Like, you know, you get to all these different levels, but eventually the level you're aiming for is, like, higher and higher consciousness. Higher consciousness means a greater ability to be what you are designed to be on earth and to also extend. Extend love and goodwill and compassion and power and influence to others for the higher good of. Of all concerned.

[Just Hilarious]

Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

I was gonna ask. With all that, does Debbie still get upset, or do you control yourself to the point where you don't get upset?

[Debbie Brown]

She's a Gemini. That's Tupac Chopra. Okay. It's two sides.

[DJ Envy]

When you're about to lose it, do you meditate? You pull the beads out? Do you like. Or do you. Sometimes you just explode?

[Devi Brown]

Oh, my God. Yeah. I have bad days all the time. Sometimes I book a session at a rage room. Like, I have a rage room near my house. You go in, you get a crowbar or bat. Oh, my God. You pay them, like, 20 bucks. They give you a carton of, like, plates and old electronics. You put on some music, and then you throw things.

[Debbie Brown]

And remember that for next time, Jess, you don't have to put your silk scarf on. You don't have to go live.

[DJ Envy]

Just go to rage. Do not make the breakfast.

[Just Hilarious]

I was going to say only if y'all go with me. Yeah, but is that how you messed up your shoulder? No.

[Debbie Brown]

Jesus.

[Just Hilarious]

Don't be getting mad.

[Devi Brown]

Damn. I tore my rotator cuff.

[Just Hilarious]

Yes, right. Right at the start of your book tour. How was that?

[Devi Brown]

I am. God has given me accelerated healing. I'm so grateful. But, you know, and I'm grateful for the surgery and for modern medicine and all the things, but, no, I still absolutely get disappointed, get mad, get upset. I think the reaction time is a lot less. The personalization of it is a lot less. I can get upset at something in more of an abstract observation way without thinking that someone is injuring me, even if that is what they're attempting to do. I can recognize maybe the deeper layers. Doesn't mean I'm not going to be upset or disappointed, but I'm not holding it inside. It's definitely not something I'm thinking about for multiple days. You know, I can kind of take it in, release it, or the way it feels, you know, because sometimes you're going to be angry about stuff that doesn't change, that can't change. The world is unfair. You know, it. It is. It just is. And I think I'm in acceptance of that. So I know things aren't always going to go my way. I'm not now all of a sudden I've meditated so much that, oh, no more challenges in life for me. Like, no, it's hard. But the way that it feels inside, the level of spiritual confidence you have in yourself to meet that challenge changes dramatically. And I think that you can compartmentalize it differently. You can hold that that unique experience is happening, but it doesn't now have to pull away and take away from all the other good that's in my life too. And I think, like, my book is really about holding space equally for grief and joy. Life is grief and joy all at once. But yeah, you get mad, but you have other tools for working with that feeling. You're not taking it out on other people. Right. You're not taking it out in yourself. You're not now being rude to whatever person is in front of you because of it. You know, you're not causing harm because of your feeling.

[Just Hilarious]

Yeah.

[Debbie Brown]

You know, in the grieve chapter, you talk about how you can't heal until you grieve.

[Devi Brown]

Yeah.

[Debbie Brown]

Can you expand on that?

[Devi Brown]

Oh, my God. It's acceptance. You can't heal what you don't let be revealed. You know, you can't heal what you don't spend time with. And I think grief is a hard feeling. It's hard. All of us have had it. Even the good stuff can be. I. My son is going to be seven next month. I love you, Quest. When you see this in the future land, you are my baby.

[Debbie Brown]

Five, nine, by the way. Seven years old. Five nine.

[Devi Brown]

He's a big boy. I grieve who he was last year. I'll never see that guy again. You know, like there. That there is a real sadness to that. I mean, you're. You're an incredible father envy. And I know, like, you see your kids at so many different ages now there's grief to that. All those different chapters of who they are, who they're becoming, you know, So I think nothing can be healed until we grieve it. Because we have to be with the truth of our spiritual curriculum. We cannot avoid whatever was designed, meant to be a part of our lives. And I just want to hold space for the fact that even saying those words, it is okay that there is a rejecting because There are certain things that happen to us that there is no clear way that you could say that's God's design. Right. Like, there are certain things that happen, and it feels so much better to like, attribute it to how wrong things are or the evilness of the world. And so there's nuance in that and that that is its own lifetime of work to come into. Right. So there's no quick fix for some of those harder abusive stories of things that have happened. But you have to let yourself feel whatever is true in your body, whatever is present from that point. You get to choose what the next path is and what the next step is. But yeah, no healing, no, no true, authentic joy or happiness can come if you avoid absolutely anything.

[Debbie Brown]

But you use some language in the book. Living it with them. That's what we're talking about. You said grief is a rite of passage.

[Devi Brown]

Yeah.

[Debbie Brown]

That was like, wow.

[Devi Brown]

I think, you know, and I. I speak as someone. That darkness has been a big teacher for me in my life. And that's not everyone's path, but it's mine. And it's some other people's having, Having some childhood trauma, having adult trauma, having. Witnessing hard things, losing people. You know, I started to look at my life and say, it feels so dark. I don't look like that. You know, sometimes not looking like what you've been through is kind of a curse because people think nothing's wrong, no one checks on you.

[Just Hilarious]

Yeah.

[Devi Brown]

You know, but it's like when I started to realize that pain serves purpose. And I mean that literally, like, pain sometimes is the servant to purpose. Like, when you can look at it, when you can be with it, when you can kind of extract yourself from the personalization of it. It can be really useful for you and for me. You know, my path has always been to be a healer, to be a teacher, to be present with people in pain, to sit at the bottom of the ocean with someone. So now I realize I needed every lesson I learned because it informs the work that I'm able to do. So I think once you're able to start seeing even your harder experiences as somehow being useful for the bigger story that your life is telling. Right. For the bigger thing that you're doing in the world, I think it changes everything.

[Just Hilarious]

And with that being said, I love that you celebrated your book in your garden and you co hosted it with Lauren London.

[Devi Brown]

Yes, my sister.

[Just Hilarious]

Okay. So you guys are friends.

[Devi Brown]

Yeah.

[Just Hilarious]

How? What? You know, because she's been through traumatic experience, you know, a big traumatic experience with Losing the love of her life. A book like this would be like medicine to what she's gone through. How was that event, like, when you celebrated, how was that? Because I know you can see the healing directly in her because she's your friend.

[Devi Brown]

God. I just have to say one. Lauren is an exceptional woman. Like, she is an exceptional woman with, like, one of the sweetest, kindest, like, hearts you could ever imagine. Like, I've just, like, she's just one of the kindest, most generous, heart centered women I have ever had the pleasure of, like, being in sisterhood with.

[Debbie Brown]

I think y'all sisters. I'm gonna be honest with you. This is my first.

[Devi Brown]

There's a. We found out we were born in the same hospital. There's a lot that is the. That is similar, but I. She's actually the first person I let read the book. And it's because she is also such a wise woman who has done so much of her own self work and self healing. Like, she is very gifted and wise. And so I wanted her eyes on it her first, because I knew she could understand the layers, you know, the complexity, the nuance of grief. And so, you know, as she was reading it, she would just call me every few days and just be like, oh, my God, you know, this is amazing. Or this part meant this to me. So it was really special. And then, you know, when she offered to do something with me for the launch of the book, we had this gorgeous party in my garden. Gardening was such a healer for me. Like, and. And that also, I want to say, I think, is such a big antidote for grief and antidote for healing. The more you can add romance to your own life, man or woman, the more you can add beauty to your life with intention, the easier healing becomes. And it's also a scientific fact, like beauty seen, beauty scene design, it can heal. It's why even in some hospitals, they have, like, healing gardens, so there's colorful flowers or access to sunlight or being able to see growth.

[Just Hilarious]

Yeah.

[Devi Brown]

It changes the things inside of us. So, yeah, so she healed that beautiful day. She came and hosted that beautiful day in my garden. And we had so many people there and so many people in the healing community, and it was just. Yeah, there was no feeling like it. It was so special and so free.

[Debbie Brown]

I love that garden. I think that's the last time I saw. I think the last time I saw Jazz alive was in your garden.

[Devi Brown]

I have a picture of that night. Yeah. Yeah, we all. We actually all recorded a podcast.

[Debbie Brown]

Please don't Ever put that up.

[Devi Brown]

So, yeah, I can't. It's too incriminating. Very off brand.

[Debbie Brown]

No, but that was a great. It was a great. It was a great night, though. I just. I don't know. When you were just talking about the garden, I'm just like, yeah, the importance of that is just to have a safe space. A safe, sacred place. A safe, sacred place.

[Just Hilarious]

You know, you are not good with the asses back. No, don't do that. That's not safe. Okay.

[Devi Brown]

Yeah.

[Debbie Brown]

You also. You dedicated your book, and I'm probably gonna pronounce her name wrong, to Mai Haskell.

[Devi Brown]

May Haskell.

[Debbie Brown]

May Haskell. And I didn't know who that was until I went to go look it up. And she was a young woman who was dismembered in Encino. What made you want to dedicate the book to her? And you said, I pray you are free.

[Devi Brown]

I have to be really careful talking about this because the trial hasn't begun yet.

[Debbie Brown]

Gotcha.

[Devi Brown]

She was a beautiful woman I had the privilege and the pleasure of meeting when my son started kindergarten and our boys were friends. And so my son is in first grade. So this just happened last year. And, you know, I'm sure the parents listening, like, when your kids are in kinder, like, you're still very connected to the other families. Right. Because the kids can't communicate on their own. So you're creating the play dates. You guys are getting together for all the birthday parties. Like, you are seeing each other almost seven days a week. And she was the mother of this sweet, beautiful little boy that was in class with my son and two other sons. And her husband is currently incarcerated for allegedly murdering her and her parents. And her body was completely dismembered. Her head was taken, her limbs were taken and not recovered. Her parents were dismembered, and then their bodies were dispersed in the trash cans in my neighborhood. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. There are horrors in this world. You know, I dedicated my book to her for so many reasons, but it's really just like, if someone takes your whole family, who remembers you?

[Debbie Brown]

Yeah.

[Devi Brown]

You know?

[Debbie Brown]

Yeah.

[Devi Brown]

Like, I wanted to just honor the fact that she was here, that she was alive, and that I will be thinking about her every day of my life.

[DJ Envy]

Living in wisdom, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah, Debbie Brown is out today.

[Debbie Brown]

I got a lot more questions. I just don't know.

[Devi Brown]

I know I should have saved that one. Maybe we should go somewhere else.

[Debbie Brown]

Yes, I do. Well, okay.

[Devi Brown]

Yeah.

[Debbie Brown]

Does everybody need to have a purpose?

[Devi Brown]

I Think everybody does have a purpose. I think what we get wrong is that purpose has to be quantified by something or that it has to make money. You know, I think just like so many words are being appropriated right now within mental health, I think other words are being used for performance, for really self validation sometimes, or ego, right? Like you hear people, well, my purpose is this and my. Or, you know, what's my purpose? And it's just another thing that you are kind of mis. Pouring yourself into. Purpose, in my belief, is simply, you know, it is your lived experience and the wisdom you've gleaned from it. It's the skills you've amassed in any and everything you could have ever done. It's your innate gifts, you know, the things that you have that God gave you. And it's then using it to serve, putting it back into service for others. And so, you know, it's like, I could say my purpose is talking, right? Because I was a broadcaster for years, I lead meditation, I communicate all the things, but really, like, I look at my purpose as like being able to be in darkness with people. You know, I think my life's greatest purpose is the fact that, like, I'm not afraid of the dark and I can be in darker moments and not recoil with other people, that I can hold space for that. And I think, you know, that may not be the most glorious purpose. It's not the thing that's maybe going to land me on a billboard, but it's the thing that, like, God trained me for. It's the thing that my life has bloomed into and I love it.

[Just Hilarious]

I love that. I love how you break that down. And also you spoke to how people overuse words because half the time people don't even know how to answer that question. Well, what is your purpose? I remember I was watching one of my friends on a live, like, ask a guy, like, she need. She said in order to date somebody, they have to know their purpose. Like, but, you know, she was on Live with certain people and the guy was like, I don't even know what you talking about when you say that. And so in return, she said, he was dumb, but it was like, no, he really didn't know what that mean. Like me, I still don't know what my purpose is. I mean, I'm. I'm grateful for the woman that I'm becoming in my spiritual growth and everything, but I still don't know what my purpose is. And what if it's not just one thing, you know what I mean?

[Devi Brown]

Exactly. And that's the thing. It's not. Yeah, it's not. You know, and like it's okay. If finding your purpose takes your whole life, it's the point of being alive. Like, why do we think we have to move so quickly through everything? That's the validation piece, right? Like, that's the wanting to be seen in it or celebrated for it. But like if it's your life's work, it is supposed to take your whole life.

[Just Hilarious]

Yeah, that's right. Because my mother in law, my husband's mother, he, she literally just told me she just found out what her purpose is. And that is to take care of, like to oversee her granddaughter. I just gave her a beautiful granddaughter, our very first grandchildren. And that's what she said holding a baby like a few months ago. Oh, I know. What my purpose is now is to be here with my family and to take care of my family because she was living out the country for decades. Please.

[Debbie Brown]

No, that was him. That's him.

[Devi Brown]

He started what just happened.

[Debbie Brown]

He started it.

[Devi Brown]

Why are you ran.

[Debbie Brown]

Let you have this moment.

[DJ Envy]

I didn't say anything.

[Just Hilarious]

You see, we can't do this. Why Devi here?

[Debbie Brown]

That's right, her mother in law is Mexican.

[Devi Brown]

Okay, wait, what?

[DJ Envy]

Don't, don't.

[Just Hilarious]

I'm from la.

[Devi Brown]

What are we talking about?

[Debbie Brown]

That's what I mean, you know, they trying to say. I think that's her purpose.

[Just Hilarious]

Because of ice being.

[Debbie Brown]

No, ain't got nothing doing no ice talking.

[Just Hilarious]

Came back.

[Debbie Brown]

No, it don't. Don't have nothing to do.

[Just Hilarious]

She came back over here to take care of my child. And they every day they joke about her being sent back. Wow. Literally. So, you know.

[Debbie Brown]

Oh, man.

[Devi Brown]

I mean, I understand the friction in this room. I. I get why we just have.

[Just Hilarious]

To grow up because. Damn.

[Debbie Brown]

Is there anything else you want to give her?

[Just Hilarious]

I don't want to. I don't even want to talk about it anymore. Thank you, Deb. Thank you so much.

[Debbie Brown]

But no, you do say in the book that you cannot have purpose without wisdom. And you can't have purpose or wisdom without acknowledgment of every single experience.

[Devi Brown]

You. Yeah, yeah. Acceptance. Acknowledge your life. You know, this is the thing, like, And I think for people that go through things, which is all of us, as soon as it switches and you start to have respect for yourself, for how you move through something, it changes everything. So it's like lean into your lived experiences. If you're not thinking about your hardest experiences, you're leaving something on the table. Like you're leaving a lot of abundance on the table because those are our keys. Those are our keys to the next level. Those are our keys to deeper layers of our own self.

[Debbie Brown]

I remember you told me that one time, and it really did help change my life. And just the way I look at things, because it's like, I remember you told me, every single version of you deserves grace. Every version of you deserves love. Every version of you deserves that healing. And I just. When you told me that, I'm like, yo, because, you know, we all try to run from certain parts of our lives, and it's just like, no, you was that person. You. You should embrace that person and give that person grace.

[Devi Brown]

And look how much. I mean, if I could, if y'all would allow, like, even just when I see the two of y'all, especially because I've known y'all for long and seen you over so many different versions while also being, you know, at the top of your game. It's like something I've always admired, especially the last 10 years, about UMB is like, the way you and your wife have moved through the world is so powerful, and it is so healing for so many people. And to see the way that you both decided to look at one another in your hardest moments and seek whatever needed to be done, no stone left unturned, to repair your hearts and to then continue to be phenomenal parents to your children, it's like, that is a. Literally an example of what it is to, like, glean the wisdom from your experiences and turn it into purpose. Like, that pain point for the two of you because you chose to be with it, to look at it, to feel everything that was in it. Look how many lives you've blessed. You know, it's like the count will go on and on till the end of time. Like, someone could find your books in 50 years, and it could be radically transformative for them. Like, that is dealing with your hard experiences and the darker points and transmuted it into purpose and making it wisdom the same. I mean, so many experiences with you as well. And when you think even just from a career standpoint and all the ways that you've elevated and grown every step of the way, you have taken accountability for every version of who you are. And then you've literally shown up as the proof of who you've become. You know, not just tongue in cheek. Like, you're not just saying that. Like, it's like, you have always become a new version and then paid everything forward. And I think that's the living example of exactly what I'm saying.

[Debbie Brown]

I do want to ask you one more thing for you go there. Because we talk about you being on radio, and there's certain moments like this morning, I'm like, I do wonder what Deb would think about this. And it was in regards to Kanye, right? And you know, Kanye, last week he posted, oh, my mother was a lesbian. Then this week he posted that he sucked his cousin's penis, you know, until he was 14. And in my mind, I'm like, if you're not going to go get help, Kanye, what are we supposed to do with this information? I wonder. What. What do you think?

[Devi Brown]

I. That's a hard question to answer, because I don't want to be someone to give anybody a diagnosis, right? Like, that is not my profession. That's not my right. In the past, and I don't know if he still identifies in this way, in the past, he has made mention that he does have mental illness. So here's the thing that I think we all really need to be a lot more real about. What is the difference between, like, mental health and mental illness? What is the difference between, like, giving someone grace because they have anxiety and, you know, they're struggling and actually giving grace to people that may be mentally ill? Nothing in his behavior seems odd to me if I look at it through that lens. And so if we see it through that lens, and again, I don't know what. Or if there are any diagnosis present in his life, but if that was the case, we have to be honest about that, and we have to be honest about how we receive and experience people. If someone is ill in that way, no, perhaps they can't do better. No, perhaps they can't get help. If you are just suffering in your mental health, but you are not mentally ill, it is a lot easier and more possible to get help and change certain dynamics of yourself. If you actually have illness, that's something else entirely. And so I think that is. That's something I would like to see change in the kind of, like, mainstream conversations as we talk about people like who. Who is ill and does not have the ability to make different choices, especially if they're having a big response in their illness and who is just not getting help because they don't feel like it or want to, or there's ego involved. So, you know, that is my thought on that. It's. It's been so hard to watch, you know, I think for a lot of us, and it's been going on for a long time. But it's like, this is someone that also added a lot of joy to a lot of our lives. Right? Like, when I think of the graduation album, that's like, when we first met, I was so broke and so confused and so like. And that album gave me hope, you know, and so it's hard to watch who he's become because I don't agree with so much of his behavior.

[Debbie Brown]

Absolutely. All right, Debbie Brown. Living in wisdom. A path to embodying your authentic self. Embracing grief and developing self mastery. Available everywhere. You buy books now go pick it up. If you love the sound of Deb's voice. If you miss her on the radio, you can go get the audio version as well. And make sure you subscribe to her podcast, the Deeply well podcast on the Black Effect. I Heart Radio podcast network. Dev, you already know I love you to death.

[DJ Envy]

Thank you for those kind words. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

[Devi Brown]

Thank you three. I love you. Big fan.

[Debbie Brown]

She was, Jesse. She was singing your praises for a while, even before we hired you.

[Just Hilarious]

Yes.

[Devi Brown]

I was texting him all the time. I was like, she is amazing. Oh, my God.

[Just Hilarious]

Thank you.

[Devi Brown]

And I also have to say, I just want to say, like, for you, thank you for what you give to the world, and thank you for the example you show up in. Like, you're an amazing mom, an entrepreneur, an incredibly talented and gifted woman across fields, and you're doing all of it, you know, And I think that. That no one can really understand how hard that is, especially as a mom, to give your kids the love they deserve and show up in your purpose for other people. So thank you.

[Carlos Miller]

All right.

[DJ Envy]

And thank you, Debbie, for being you, who you are. But thank you. And I still remember that conversation we had last time.

[Debbie Brown]

I remember her knocking nobody up. That never happened.

[Devi Brown]

Do we have to get back to that?

[Debbie Brown]

I don't remember that. I don't remember that.

[DJ Envy]

Give each other grace. Even the oldies.

[Devi Brown]

It's the Breakfast. All the versions.

[Debbie Brown]

Wake that ass up early in the morning. The Breakfast Club.

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