INTERVIEW: Governor Josh Shapiro On Public Service, Pushing Back On Lobbyists, Kamala Harris + More

Summary

The Breakfast Club – Interview: Governor Josh Shapiro on Public Service, Pushing Back on Lobbyists, Kamala Harris + More

Podcast: iHeartPodcasts – The Breakfast Club
Hosts: DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne tha God
Guest: Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro
Date: October 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Breakfast Club features a candid and wide-ranging interview with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. The conversation covers his personal experiences as a public servant confronting political violence, his policy responses to economic challenges, the realities of political leadership, sharp takes on national and state issues, and his approach to topics like Washington gridlock, lobbying, Israel/Palestine, blue-collar work, and criminal justice. Shapiro often challenges conventional narratives, stresses his "get shit done" ethos, and speaks frankly about the demands of family and governance.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Political Violence & Personal Impact

[02:59–09:08]

• Attack on the Governor’s Residence: Shapiro describes being the target of a violent arson and attempted murder attack on his family home.
  • “This guy… firebombed our home… he was wielding a metal hammer that he said he was gonna use to try to kill me.” (Shapiro, 03:14)
• Felt guilt and wrestled with the conflict between public service and family safety.
• Security was upgraded and protocols changed; Shapiro stresses not living in fear.
  • “I’m unwilling to be a victim the rest of my life. I’m unwilling to be paralyzed by fear.” (Shapiro, 06:44)
• Open conversations with kids about the event; wants to model resiliency and strength for his family.

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2. Economic Hardship and Policy Response

[12:19–15:25]

• Discussed rising costs: food, rent, cars; DJ Envy points out six-figure price jumps for basic vehicles.
• Shapiro blames tariffs imposed by former President Trump for much of the economic strain.
  • “Everything costs more because Donald Trump pushed a button and started a tariff war…” (Shapiro, 13:26)
• Outlines what his administration has done: six rounds of tax cuts (for seniors, small businesses, families), tripled childcare tax credit, investment in affordable housing.
• Shares an example: working with NFL star LeSean McCoy on a new affordable housing project in Harrisburg.

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3. Dealing with Gridlock: Federal and State Levels

[15:25–20:36]

• Shapiro explains real-world impacts of the federal government shutdown on state workers and vulnerable Pennsylvanians.
• Criticizes lack of action on healthcare subsidies and direct effects of losing Medicaid/SNAP/WIC funding.
  • “600 plus thousand Pennsylvanians… are either losing health care or food assistance… as a result of Trump and the Republicans…” (Shapiro, 18:06)
• Stresses bipartisan cooperation in a near-evenly split state legislature, touts crime reductions and tax cuts as proof of pragmatic leadership.

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4. Addressing the “Presidential Buzz”

[20:36–21:30]

• Frequently mentioned as a potential presidential contender, Shapiro reiterates his focus is firmly on Pennsylvania.
  • “I took an oath of office to 13 million people to work my ass off for them every single day…” (Shapiro, 20:55)

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5. The Kamala Harris Book & Honest Political Conversations

[23:47–32:23]

• Responds to Kamala Harris’ book (“107 Days”) claims he was “overly ambitious” when considered for VP and pushed for too large a role:
  • "I love being governor of Pennsylvania and calling the shots." (Shapiro, 26:00)
• Defends himself against accusations of party disunity; says he worked hard for Harris’ campaign.
• Recounts telling President Biden directly that he was likely to lose Pennsylvania, stating value in honesty and directness.
  • “If you got something to say, you say it directly to that person’s face…” (Shapiro, 28:03)
• Pushes back on the idea you must trash former leaders to move up, preferring “show your work” and authenticity.
  • “I don’t believe that you get ahead in life by throwing people under the bus...” (Shapiro, 29:24)

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6. Foreign Policy: Israel, Gaza, and Two-State Solutions

[37:12–48:26]

• Gives credit to Trump for initial Israel/Gaza peace deal, says much more work is needed (“phase two”).
• Explains his criticism of Netanyahu and support for a two-state solution; says peace requires hope and opportunity for Palestinian children.
  • “The only way you’re going to have peace and stability… is if you’re a kid growing up in the Palestinian areas and you believe you’ve got a future.” (Shapiro, 39:04)
• Draws comparison between criticizing Israel and the U.S.: one can love a country and still challenge its leaders’ mistakes.
• On lobbyist influence (esp. AIPAC): acknowledges too much money and lobbying in politics but resists “lazy shortcuts”—argues for judging elected officials on “how they answer the tough questions.”
  • “I think every lobbying group has too much power... But my focus every day is trying to get out and be with regular folk…” (Shapiro, 44:42)

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7. Pushing Back on Lobbyists & Political Influence

[46:55–60:18]

• Frequently distances himself from D.C. lobbyists: “I work about seven days a week. I try and only be in my physical office in the Capitol about three days a week. And so I'm physically out and about listening to folks.” (Shapiro, 46:58)
• Talks about saying “no” to donors and refusing support if their values don’t align, even at political cost.

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8. Education & Workforce Development: Ending Degree Requirements

[48:51–54:03]

• Talks passionately about eliminating four-year degree requirements for most state jobs, dramatically expanding opportunities.
  • “61% of the people we’ve hired over the last two and a half years… do not have a college degree.” (Shapiro, 49:24)
• Investment in vocational/technical education and apprenticeship programs to rebuild Pennsylvania’s blue-collar workforce and industrial base.
  • “America stopped training the people that were building the stuff that we need to for this country too many years ago. And we’ve got to get back…” (Shapiro, 52:45)

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9. State-Led Revitalization & Economic Development

[54:03–55:18]

• Details the “PA Sites” program and half-billion dollar investment in remediating unused industrial sites for job creation, focused on revitalizing hollowed-out rural communities.

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10. Message to Distrustful Voters / “Get Shit Done”

[55:18–57:02]

• Advice to those cynical about politicians: “Look at my record and focus on the three letters I focus on every day: GSD. Get. Shit. Done.” (Shapiro, 55:30)
• Points to tangible results—jobs, healthcare, infrastructure—to restore faith in government.

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11. Criminal Justice & Pardons

[64:23–67:29]

• Discusses his philosophy on pardons and second chances, referencing high-profile cases like Wallow:
  • “There are other people… who learn from that bad day… and then they make a difference for others. And those are the people that I try to find.” (Shapiro, 64:38)
• Emphasizes the weight of clemency power and checks in personally on those he’s helped.

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12. Approach to Leadership, Success, and Approval Ratings

[62:42–64:23]

• Rejects defining success through polling; instead, measures by “lives changed”:
  • “For as wonderful as it is to have a 62% approval rating… I still rely not on the data that you cite but the feel I get from people…” (Shapiro, 62:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The hardest part for me… has been knowing that the job I love… put my family’s lives at risk.” — Josh Shapiro (03:14)
• “Everything costs more because Donald Trump pushed a button and started a tariff war…” — Josh Shapiro (13:26)
• “I took an oath of office to 13 million people to work my ass off for them every single day.” — Josh Shapiro (20:55)
• “I don’t believe you get ahead in life by throwing people under the bus.” — Josh Shapiro (29:24)
• “The only way you’re going to have peace…is if you’re a kid growing up in the Palestinian areas and you believe you’ve got a future.” — Josh Shapiro (39:04)
• “Look at my record and focus on the three letters that I focus on every day. GSD: get shit done.” — Josh Shapiro (55:30)
• “There are other people—Wallow’s a great example—who learn from that bad day…and then make a difference for others.” — Josh Shapiro (64:38)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:14] — Shapiro recounts the arson/attempted murder at his home, security changes
• [12:23] — Economic discussion: rising costs, tariffs, state actions
• [15:25] — Government shutdown impacts, health care/assistance lost
• [20:55] — Presidential speculation; “Pennsylvania first” answer
• [23:47] — Harris’ book, “overly ambitious” claim, his response
• [28:03] — Confronting President Biden about electoral weakness
• [37:12] — Israel-Gaza: peace deals, Netanyahu criticism, two-state solution
• [44:42] — On lobbying: influence and "lazy shortcuts"
• [49:03] — Dropping degree requirements for state employment
• [55:18] — Message to skeptical voters (“get shit done”)
• [62:50] — Success measured by lives changed, not polling
• [64:23] — Pardon philosophy, Wallow case

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Conclusion

Gov. Josh Shapiro’s interview delivers a robust, unvarnished look at the personal and political realities of public leadership in today’s America. Shapiro stands out for his independence, policy pragmatism, emphasis on blue-collar opportunity, and resistance to both political and lobbying pressure. Throughout, he champions authenticity, transparency, and results—for Pennsylvania and beyond. Whether discussing family trauma, economic policy, national politics, or global affairs, Shapiro underscores his commitment to action, connection with everyday people, and leading by example.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

This is an I Heart podcast.

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[Johnny Knoxville]

Johnny Knoxville here. Check out Crimeless Hillbilly Heist, my new true crime podcast from Smartless Media, Campside Media and big money players. It's the true story of the almost perfect crime and the nimrods who almost pulled it off. It was kind of like the perfect.

[Josh Shapiro]

Storm in a sewer.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That was dumb.

[Josh Shapiro]

Do not not follow my example.

[Johnny Knoxville]

Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Graves County Podcast Narrator]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Josh Shapiro]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Graves County Podcast Narrator]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Hunting for Answers Podcast Narrator]

Short on time, but big on true crime. On a recent episode of the podcast Hunting for Answers, I highlighted the story of 19 year old Lachey Dungey. But she never knocked on that door. She never made it inside. And that text message would be the last time anyone would ever hear from her. Listen to Hunting for Answers from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh Shapiro]

Wake that ass up early in the morning.

[DJ Envy]

The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy. Just hilarious. Charlemagne the guy. We are the Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's right. I call him Barack Obama. Baruch Obama, ladies and gentlemen.

[Josh Shapiro]

I just want to put the giant helmet right in front of us.

[Charlamagne tha God]

We have the governor of Pennsylvania, Governor Josh Obama.

[Josh Shapiro]

By the way, is that old helmet because he's over on the birds now.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You know it is. It's signed by Saquon too. So let me put it back. The fact that you recognize.

[DJ Envy]

That'S crazy.

[Josh Shapiro]

Come on.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Good morning. How you feeling?

[Josh Shapiro]

Hey, I'm feeling Great. Thanks for having me back. It's good to be with you guys.

[DJ Envy]

Good seeing you again.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You asked me how my family was before the interview. I want to ask you how your family is now because I saw this week that Cody Ballmer, who was accused of an arson attack on your house, he pled guilty and was sentenced to 25 the 50 years. How does that make, you know, you and the family feel?

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah, I mean, look, I'll. I'll be honest. It's been hard dealing with this as a governor, right? Knowing that you're a target, knowing that in this world of politics we're in today, you got people who want to do you harm. And I'm sure we'll talk about political violence. We're seeing way too much of that across the country. But the hardest part of this whole thing for me has been knowing that the job I love, right, being governor of Pennsylvania, serving the good people of Pennsylvania, put my family's lives at risk. I mean, this guy, Charlemagne, he came in with Molotov cocktails. He firebombed our home.

[DJ Envy]

How did he get so close? How did he get in?

[Josh Shapiro]

I'll answer in a sec, but I just want to be clear. He was wielding a metal hammer that he said he was gonna use to try to kill me. That's crazy. And he not only pledged guilty to arson, he pled guilty to attempted murder.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Damn.

[Josh Shapiro]

And so I think the. The thing for me that I'm just being really honest that I'm working through is how to keep my family safe doing the job. I love that, by the way. I feel real purpose in. Right. Serving people. And the notion that people now need to choose between their family's safety and, well, being and doing public service, that's a hard thing for me to work through just as a dad, you know, beyond being a governor. But, look, envy. I mean, to your point or to your question. Sorry. You know, there were tremendous failures from a security standpoint. Pennsylvania State Police, who I do have confidence in, have changed a whole bunch of procedures. The home, which really hadn't been. This was the governor's residence, really hadn't had any kind of overhaul from a security perspective for decades, has gone through that. I do feel safe there now. I do feel safe when I'm going around. I worry about my family, obviously, all the time, but it was a failure, and they learned from it. And I've got confidence that they're going to do better if. If, God forbid, something like that, you know, happens another time.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Tell me how you have that Kind of confidence.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Johnny Knoxville]

How do you feel safe now?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Because how do you know it wasn't an inside job? How do you know? You know, you don't.

[Josh Shapiro]

You really don't know who.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Pretty close.

[DJ Envy]

It wasn't like it was. They threw it from the street.

[Podcast Host]

Like they got doors in your house, but just wasn't successful to get through those doors. And you. It was 15 people in your house?

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah. Oh, there were about 20. We had me and my family. There's six of us.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Josh Shapiro]

Our two dogs. And then we also had my brother, sister and their kids, so my nieces and nephews. Yeah, it was scary. I mean, you know, knowing that there's a fire and you got these brave firefighters rushing in to put out the firefight. Put out the fire. Pardon me, as they're ushering you out. I mean, it's scary. Look, there are some things that they have done. They're going to make what happened there impossible again. They built a wall around the residents. We really didn't have something like that. There's now a dedicated crew of state troopers to patrolling the grounds. We didn't have that before. There's all kinds of new technology. I'm not going to get into it here. That. That is, you know, going to make us safe. And they've taken steps at our home as well. Look, I think you gotta. In this job, you gotta have faith in the people around you to keep you safe. Otherwise you become paralyzed by fear. And I'm unwilling to be a victim the rest of my life. I'm unwilling to be paralyzed by fear. And I'm not gonna be deterred in doing this work. I'm not gonna be deterred in practicing my faith. I'm not gonna be deterred in being who I am. I'm not gonna be deterred in just being able to go outside and have a catch with my kids. You can't live in fear. And that is kind of how I've worked through this and my family and I have worked through this so that we can work, we can go forward and do this job we love and try and do it in a safe way.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You don't believe that building a wall is a proper way to keep what.

[Josh Shapiro]

You'Re saying, Man, I've always been for securing our border, if that's where you're going.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, I was as, you know. So what startled him? That was my question. Because he was in the house. He had a hammer. What made him flee? What made him run?

[Josh Shapiro]

I don't know if you saw the video, but he used this metal hammer to, to break a window to throw the Molotov cocktail, which ignited the explosion. Then he went to another window, used metal hammer to break a window so he could climb in. What's really scary, which I don't think folks understood when they looked at the video, is he then tried to kick down a set of doors that literally lead to our private living quarters where we all were. So he was a door away while that was going on. You know, we've later learned this. The state police opted not to go after him, but to get us out and get us to safety, which was the right thing to do. And so we were able to be safe and secure while, you know, he was able to get away.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And I saw you say that you had an enormous guilt about that based off what you just said, you know, earlier about being a public servant, being a governor, but just still being. Being a father. Is it worth it?

[Josh Shapiro]

I think it is, Charlemagne. And I mean, it's a tough question you're asking me, right? Is it worth putting your kids lives at risk? Right. I mean, that's a hard thing to ask to. To answer. I think what I love public service. I'm not trying to sound corny, but like, I really feel like I get to make a difference every day. And I sure we'll talk about some issues. I think we are making a difference. And so I want to help other people. And obviously the most important thing is keeping my family safe. I think if you can have confidence in the people who are keeping you safe, you can't walk away now with everything that's on the line, with all the challenges we face as a country, with my responsibility to frankly push back on what we're seeing in Washington, protect our freedoms in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Now it's not the time to walk away. So I think we're in a good place from a safety perspective. I am mentally strong and prepared to continue on with this work knowing that my family is being cared for and protected. And this is not a time to quit. So yeah, it's worth it. It's worth it to put yourself out there and try and do good for others.

[Podcast Host]

I saw you say that the conversations with your kids have been hard, right. Because of all of this. Have your kids asked you to not do this job anymore after everything?

[Josh Shapiro]

I want to be respectful to my kids privacy. But you know, I'll tell you what it was like in the days after and kind of where we are today. We're blessed with four kids. 23, 2016, 14. What was really interesting to Laurie and I, and 23 is a daughter, and then the rest are boys. They each ask different kinds of questions and they asked him in a different way. And, you know, sometimes they were concerned about my well being, sometimes they were understandably concerned about their own well being. My 14 year old asked a lot of questions that were super factual. How did he get here? How did he do that? What was he doing? What does the video look like? You know, stuff like that. And I remember early on in this, I just answered everything I knew. I told him everything I knew with, with as much granularity as I had. I remember my wife said to me, are we doing this? Is this what we're supposed to do? Are we supposed to tell our kids this? And I was like, I think so. I mean, there's no playbook for this. And so we were just brutally honest with our kids about both the facts of what happened and then the emotional questions that they asked. And I think that helped them get through it too. My kids haven't asked me to quit. My kids haven't asked me, you know, the real question you asked me before. I think they want me to keep doing this work. I mean, I think like any job that a parent has, it pulls you away from a game or it pulls you away from something they want. Like that annoys kids, rightfully so. But overall, the idea that I would quit this job because I'm afraid, I think that would set the wrong example for my kids. I want my kids to grow up strong and confident. I want my kids to grow up in a world where they feel like they can do whatever they want to do and they can make a difference in the world. They're not going to be deterred by bullies, aren't going to be deterred by people who, who want to come after them. Instead, they're going to stand up to that. I want to show that example.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, that would be a tough conversation if your wife and kids came to you and was like, we love you, but we want you to step down. Our family?

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Well, yeah.

[Josh Shapiro]

And look, you know, when we talk about politics, every decision I made, ever run for an office or, or decide not to run for an office or do some. It's always been kind of like, you know, 1% political and 99% personal and family. Because when you do these jobs, you gotta be all in. You gotta be willing to, you know, miss the games and the routine stuff, which you guys all, I'm sure, go through. Every parent goes through that. But you also have to be, you gotta have your family all in to deal with the public pressures that come along with this. And my kids have been amazing. My wife has been unbelievable. I mean, we, we've been together since the ninth grade. She's not that we knew this was gonna be our lives back then, but she's just been with me through everything and she's like the most amazing support system. And just, you know, my best friend.

[DJ Envy]

In the whole world.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I would just tell him it's gonna be way less security if I'm not governor no more.

[Josh Shapiro]

So maybe I.

[DJ Envy]

Wanted to talk about some of the things that's going on in Washington and how it's affecting you as a governor.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah, sure.

[DJ Envy]

You see so many people can't pay their rent, can't pay for food, can't pay a lot of it. Right. And then the tariffs are adding to it. Right. The other day we were talking about the average price of car. A car, just a vehicle, something to drive. They said, I think like six years ago it was like 30 something thousand. Now it's $52,000. So people can't afford things anymore. It's getting very difficult out there. They can't afford rent, they can't afford to go to school, they're taking extra jobs. So what are you telling, especially the governor of Pennsylvania, what are you telling people in Pennsylvania about that? Or how are you helping?

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

If any.

[Josh Shapiro]

So we're just having a conversation about this. I was in Lebanon County, Pennsylvania on a farm yesterday, by the way, announcing that Pennsylvania has now protected more farmland than any other state in the entire country. I'm sure not super interesting to the Breakfast Club listeners, but a really important thing for Pennsylvania. Why do I bring that up? Because I was asked, hey, what's, what's going on? Like, what's on the minds of farmers and people you meet here in rural Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania. And in many ways it's the same thing that's on the mind of people in urban Pennsylvania, in Philly or Pittsburgh or something like that. Affordability for farmers. Affordability is a problem because of the President's tariffs. I mean, that is the dumbest policy. It has caused prices to rise. It has shut down markets for farmers, it has shut down markets for Pennsylvania manufacturers. And you go to the grocery store, things cost more. You order something on Amazon. Now they got rid of that so called de minimis rule. Everything you're buying costs more and everything costs more because Donald Trump pushed a button and started a tariff war, a trade war with our allies. With Canada, with. With countries that we do business with to the benefit of Americans. I'm not saying that some targeted tariff here or there, protect the steel industry or something like that isn't helpful, but these blanket tariffs that he pulls out of his ass and doesn't really have a number that makes a whole lot of sense is having a singular effect in my state and across the country, and that is to make everything cost more, whether you're running a business, whether you're operating a farm, or whether you're just trying to buy your groceries. What am I doing about in Pennsylvania in the face of the federal government working against us? I've cut taxes six times in our commonwealth. I've cut taxes for seniors, cut taxes for small businesses multiple times. I've cut taxes for families who are trying to afford child care. We tripled what we call our child care tax credit. In addition to that, we're investing more in housing to try and bring down the cost of housing. We've developed more affordable housing. Great. Eagle Shady McCoy and I actually just worked together on a big housing project in the Harrisburg area, which is now built and. And open. So we got a lot more work to do on that front, but that's certainly important. We are doing everything we can to reduce costs for people, to try and bring down the cost of things. And Donald Trump is just working against us every single day. And these tariffs are exhibit A.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Whose fault is the government shut down? And does it matter? Because right now the polls are saying that most Americans are starting to blame Democrats.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah, look, I don't know about the polls, and I'm not a political pundit. Here's what I know. I have to deal with the real effects of it every day as a governor of Pennsylvania, by the way, as do other governors. Right. So I've got a workforce of about 80,000 people who work for me in the state. Roughly 10,000 of them work for the state, but they're funded by the feds to support our veterans, provide health care, you know, you name it, they're not getting paid right now. Right. And if I pay them in lieu of the federal government paying them, that's a budget hit to me. I got veterans. We're one of the top states for a number of veterans, about 800,000 veterans in our state who aren't getting the benefits that they need. I got kids with unique, you know, health challenges who aren't getting the services they need because the federal government is shut down. Look, the Republicans control everything in D.C. they control the Senate, they Control the House, they control the presidency because of the unique rules that they have. They need whatever it is, seven or eight Democratic votes in the U.S. senate. Why the hell should the Democrats give up their vote for nothing? They've said, we want one thing, we want to make sure health care is more affordable. We want these so called Obamacare subsidies extended because when they go away at the end of this year, you want to talk about cost envy, your health care costs are going to spike because of it. And so Democrats rightfully said in the Senate, you want our seven votes, you gotta give us what we need on healthcare, which by the way, makes a lot of sense. You gotta use the leverage when you have it. So I'm kind of less focused on who's to blame and more focused on two things. One, managing our state through this and number two, hopefully seeing the Democrats be successful in the US Senate in driving home a conclusion that's gonna result in better healthcare for Americans.

[Charlamagne tha God]

From a strategy perspective, do you think it would have been smarter to say, you know what, let the Republicans have their way, let them drive up health care. So that's the one issue we can point to and say this is Republicans fault as opposed to now the waters being so muddied because the government is shut down and so many other people aren't getting paid, so now they're starting to blame Democrats.

[Josh Shapiro]

I'm less focused in my day to day life of letting something bad happen so I can point a finger at somebody else than actually solving the damn problem and then go take credit for it. I mean, you know, obviously you're in the business of, of getting stuff done and then you got to go tell the voters what you did. I hope that Chuck Schuman, the Democrats are successful here. And then rather than try and prove that the bad thing that happened was the Republicans fault, go and take credit for doing something good for the American people and helping them, you know, get their health care. I will tell you, this fight is, is playing out at a really critical time when it comes to health care. If I can get maybe just a little parochial though, you can extrapolate this out to every other state, my state, 13 million people, you know, big state, as a result of Trump and the Republicans passing what they call the beautiful bill, which, you know, silly name, but just follow me on this. 510,000 Pennsylvanians are about to lose healthcare coverage, about to lose Medicaid, and 140,000 more Pennsylvanians are losing food assistance. That actually started back in September. Right? So we snap and wick and exact snap. Yeah. So we got this moment right now where I've got, you know, 600 plus thousand Pennsylvanians who are either losing health care or food assistance. And then at the end of this year, I got over a million who rely on these subsidies to afford Obamacare. And by the way, these are people working. They're doing what we want them to do and we're giving them a little bit of extra help so they can afford health care for them and their families that goes away. So we're facing a dire situation of Donald Trump's making where I've got about a million and a half people who in some form or fashion are going to lose health care, be kicked off of it or lose food assistance. This is a real problem. And by the way, the states can't make that up. Like we can't backfill that. I can't speak for every governor, but I don't think any state's budget can backfill the billions of dollars in healthcare and food assistance that, that they're cutting. So the fact remains, if these senators want to go fight to protect health care, I'm all in for that. They should use their leverage to be able to do that.

[Podcast Host]

Is that why in Pennsylvania right now there's such a back and forth about you guys budget and trying to figure out what can be improved and what can't because of the trickle down from the big.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah, look, the feds make this way harder. Right. And you know, I got, I'm a governor with a divided legislature. I'm one of the only ones in the country. I've got a state house led by Democrats by the way, by one seat, the state senate led by Republicans, literally by two seats. So out of 253 lawmakers, three seats separate the whole thing. I've managed to bring them all together to do big things. Cutting taxes, investing in education, by the way, investing in public safety. I made a commitment to hire 2000 cops and put a few hundred million dollars into violence prevention. It's working. Crime is down 42% in Pennsylvania. So we've shown an ability to come together and get stuff done. And certainly we're going to do that here.

[Charlamagne tha God]

The thing I like about you, Governor Shapiro, is that you aren't busy pointing fingers. You're always doing the work. And it's interesting because you're one of the people whose names comes up to run for president all the time, but you don't seem to be actively campaigning for that like some of the other governors do. So how do you stay Pennsylvania first?

[Josh Shapiro]

That's my job, man. I took an oath of office to 13 million people to work my ass off for them every single day, and I'm busy every day doing that. And look, I think the most important thing when people trust you to do these jobs is do the job, show your work. And I've always believed that the best politics is really good policy, and good policy means lives get better. So that's the way I do it. I don't want to in any way have that answer be viewed as a dis of any other governor. Man. I've got a great relationship with my fellow governors. We've got some amazing governors doing great work across the country, and I really applaud them.

[DJ Envy]

I wanted to ask about, you know, what the government shut down. How bad is that affecting the regular person in Pennsylvania? Because it's. It's what, this is the third week now, going on the fourth week, what.

[Charlamagne tha God]

16 days, I think.

[DJ Envy]

16 days. And. And it's. And it's getting to the point where it seems like a lot of people are going to be fired. A lot of people are not going to get paid.

[Podcast Host]

They working without paying.

[DJ Envy]

They working without paying. Some people say they're not even gonna get back pay.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

So how difficult is that for. For your people in Pennsylvania? And what do you tell them, right? Do you, like, how do you tell somebody to keep working and don't get paid? You know, how do you tell somebody to work but then they can't pay their mortgage or they can't pay for this? Like, so what do you say?

[Josh Shapiro]

You know, largest employer in Pennsylvania is the federal government. Second largest is the state government. And I'm proud to be colleagues with 80,000 people that work for our state government. I work with them every single day. I'm proud of them. I'm proud of the work that they do, from the folks who clean our buildings to the people that go out and, you know, test for public health issues out in our rural communities. I value the work that they do. The idea that some of them are being asked to go to work without pay, that the largest employer in our state is not paying their employees, that has a real negative impact to the point you're making. I mean, these are folks who still need to go to the grocery store, they still need to pay for their kids childcare, they still need to get their kid the baseball bat, they need for little league, whatever, and they're not. I think what's different about this shutdown than past. In the past, they were kind of guaranteed they were going to get their money back at the end of it, and so it sucks. But they probably thought, okay, I can get through a week or two or three, but I'm going to get all that money back. The way Donald Trump is doing things, the way these people around him are doing things, I don't think they know they're going to get their money back. And so it's not just about kind of floating through three weeks. Right. Maybe dip in the savings, put the money back to the extent that you have the savings. This is really serious stuff because they don't know that they're going to get that back pay. I think the way Trump has treated the federal workforce is just so disrespectful from a human standpoint. In fact, he's laid off a ton of federal workers. We've hired them in the state. They got great skills, great expertise, and they want to do good by their, you know, their fellow Americans. And so we've hired them and they're doing really important work for us. I think you got to treat people with respect when they're doing these jobs, and clearly the president isn't.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Now, I read Kamala Harris Book 107 Days, just switching gears a little bit. And I saw your comments on her book. And for those who don't know, the former VP wrote that Governor Shapiro seemed overly ambitious because you were up for the VP role. She said you seemed overly ambitious and you pushed for too large a role for a vice president and seemed unwilling to accept a number two position. How did you feel when you heard that?

[Josh Shapiro]

I mean, I haven't read her book. I'm busy every day, frankly, dealing with the effects of the fact that we lost the 2024 election. Dealing with Donald Trump, wanting to send troops into our streets. Dealing with Donald Trump, by the way, just a week or two ago, demanding that I turn over the entire voter rolls, including Pennsylvania Social Security number, driver's license number, all this stuff. I don't know what the hell he wants that for, but I know it's not for any good purpose, and he sued me when I wouldn't turn it over. I'm dealing with the real effects of governing in a world, you know, after Donald Trump won the election. So haven't read the book, haven't really focused on it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But. But even. What's wrong with a vice president being overly ambitious if you're the number two to the number one?

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Shouldn't you be ready to be number one?

[Josh Shapiro]

I guess that's A question for her. She clearly thought it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And you also criticized her, which I thought was fair, for not speaking out publicly earlier about concerns over President Biden's fitness to run. Yeah, 2024. To me, that's not just a criticism for the VP. It's a criticism for the whole Democratic Party.

[Josh Shapiro]

You and I have talked about that issue. Yeah. And look, I. I don't want to get into it with. With the former vice president, but, I mean, if you're in the room, you're seeing things nobody else is seeing. You had a responsibility to speak up and. And she didn't.

[Podcast Host]

Do you think.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Hold on, one last thing about that. We can move on. But the book. The book also mentioned. Because you didn't read it, but it mentioned that some of your comments on pro Palestinian protests were flagged by her campaign. But that wasn't a deciding factor. Do you think?

[Josh Shapiro]

Look, I. I wasn't in her head. I don't know what she was thinking. I'll just say to you, I think I said this to you before just to keep it real. I mean, when I was going through that process. First off, it's an honor to go through that process. I said throughout it that she had a deeply personal decision to make in the end. Charlemagne. So did I. And I love being governor of Pennsylvania and calling the shots.

[DJ Envy]

Now, it seems like you two don't rock with each other too much.

[Josh Shapiro]

Right.

[DJ Envy]

And from the comments that Charlamagne said in the book and things that you said about.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Who?

[DJ Envy]

Kamala Harris?

[Charlamagne tha God]

No, I don't get that.

[Josh Shapiro]

No. And by the way, she and I have known each other 20 years. I mean, we've worked together for a long time.

[DJ Envy]

It doesn't seem like it's a united front.

[Josh Shapiro]

Right.

[DJ Envy]

But sometimes you look at Republicans, per se, it seems like it's more of a united front. It just seems like that front wasn't united.

[Josh Shapiro]

I don't think so. Envy. I worked my butt off to help her get elected. I mean, I did every. I traveled with Gretchen Whitmer and Tony Evers to all three swing states. Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan. I did dozens of events. Hell, I even cut an ad for her. I don't think her campaign ever ran it, but cut an ad for her in Pennsylvania where, you know, I'm doing okay there. So I. Yeah, I got no ill will, and I don't think she does toward me.

[Podcast Host]

What about? Cause I know you had a conversation with Biden one on one, where you told him that you didn't think that he was, like, fit to run Right. You had conversations with the VP leading up to her announcing and all the things. Did you ever say to her, you should say something now like, people are relying on you.

[Josh Shapiro]

Well, I never had a conversation with her. I went directly to the President and spoke to him about what I saw were, you know, his challenges in Pennsylvania. I was really honest with him. We got together at a coffee shop and Harrisburg, I think there's been reported. I mean, I'll just share with you. I was very. He said, how's it going? I was very clear it's not going well. The polls are showing it's not going well. I don't think you're handling the cost question. Back to what we talked about before with rising costs. It was a big theme in the campaign, big issue in Pennsylvania. I didn't think they were handling that well. I expressed that I thought people thought he wasn't up to the job. Not so much the job doing it at that moment, but the job doing it for another four years, which I think there's a real difference there. And I was very honest with him about that. Look, I'm. Maybe it's old school, but I believe that if you got something to say, you say it directly to that person's face, and he's the President of the United States. I respected him, still respect him, and I respect him enough to say it directly to his face.

[DJ Envy]

How was it received?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Josh Shapiro]

I think he heard it. He told me that their poll numbers were different, and he seemed committed to continuing forward. And listen, that's his call, of course. I mean, he was President of the United States. And so to me, I thought I had a responsibility as the governor from arguably the most important swing state in the entire country to be very honest about what I was seeing on the ground and to be very honest about the fact that I saw real challenges for him to get or for him to win Pennsylvania. And I was also really honest with him that I had shared a lot of this with his team, and I didn't think that they were being direct with him. And so I felt the need to take what is, you know, fairly extraordinary step and go directly to the president and say this.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You can't. You should. That stuff should be amplified. Like, I knew that story, right? But the reason I say that stuff should be amplified is because that's what's going to help you in the future if you do decide to run for president. Because I keep telling folks like, look, man, anybody that wants to lead this party in the future has to throw that old regime under the bus, and it has to be people that told that old regime the truth about where they were at. It wasn't a lot of y' all that did that.

[Josh Shapiro]

Can I disagree with you slightly on this? I don't believe that you get ahead in life by throwing people under the bus. I don't believe that I gotta kick somebody in order to. To get ahead. I think you got to show your work. I think you got to show a vision. I think you got to tell people what you're all about, and that's how, you know you can be successful as a governor, as, you know, senator, whatever it is that. That you do. I made my point clear to the president and the former president, and, you know, I'm glad I did that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Okay. How about being known as a truth teller in a party that lied to the whole country?

[Josh Shapiro]

I think speaking truth is really important.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

[Josh Shapiro]

And I did that. I think people believing that, even if they disagree with you on an issue or they disagree with your viewpoint on something, at least they walk away knowing, hey, you know what? That guy was straight with me. I mean, hell, I think we started the conversation. I was at a farm in Lebanon County, Pennsylvania, yesterday. This is not an area the Democrats go to. And I was there talking for real about tariffs and other things. And I kind of made a joke. I said, look, I know where I am. I know I'm in Lebanon County. I know this isn't exactly, you know, an area where I'm getting the majority of the vote or however I said it. But I wanted to be here today, and I wanted to be clear with you about what I think, how I feel and how I see things. I think what the American people really want, certainly people of Pennsylvania want, again, swingiest state in the whole country. I think it's a pretty good indicator of where others are. They just want you to be real. They want you to be authentic, and they don't need to agree with you on everything. Like, this isn't about everybody agreeing on a purity test. They want to know what's in your heart. They want to know what motivates you to serve, and they want to know what you really think.

[DJ Envy]

Were you surprised when Trump won Pennsylvania?

[Josh Shapiro]

No. I mean, I saw when Biden dropped out, he had been consistently down. And by the way, I shared this with the former president. He'd been consistently down 5, 6, 7 points when the vice president jumped in. You saw the numbers close, but she never overtook him in any of the data that we saw. And look, I think beyond the data. I got a pretty good feel for my state. And in my state you get a sense of sort of where different areas are going and how they're moving. And she just never was able to close that gap. Now look, if she would have won Pennsylvania by 50,000 votes, would I have been shocked? No. But you asked me was I surprised or shocked that he won? No. Because basically by the end, when we were in that final couple weeks, she was kind of minus one, even minus two, something like that. I mean, it wasn't that she had overcome where he was.

[Podcast Host]

If she had separated herself more from Biden, do you think she could have won the state? What do you think was the reason why she didn't?

[Josh Shapiro]

I don't know. I mean, look, what's the title of the book? 107 days. Yeah, I mean, she didn't. She didn't have a lot of time.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, right.

[Josh Shapiro]

In fairness to her. But it kind of goes back to.

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[Josh Shapiro]

Hey, it's Ed Helms. And welcome back to Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new Snafu. Every single episode.

[Graves County Podcast Narrator]

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

What?

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah. Ernie Shackleton sounds like a solid 70s basketball player who still wore knee pads.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yes.

[Josh Shapiro]

It's going to be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of guests. The great Paul Scheer made me feel good. I'm like, oh, wow, Angela and Jenna, I am so psyched you're here.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

What was that like for you to.

[Graves County Podcast Narrator]

Soft launch into the show?

[Josh Shapiro]

Sorry, Jenna, I'll be asking the question questions today.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

I forgot whose podcast we were doing.

[Josh Shapiro]

Nick Kroll. I hope this story is good enough to get you to toss that sandwich. So let's, let's, let's see how it goes. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All I know is what I've been told.

[Podcast Host]

And that's a half truth is a whole lie.

[Graves County Podcast Narrator]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Podcast Host]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Graves County Podcast Narrator]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Johnny Knoxville]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Graves County Podcast Narrator]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer. And I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or.

[Josh Shapiro]

Burn or any of that other stuff that y' all said.

[Smart Water Alkaline Advertiser]

They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Graves County Podcast Narrator]

From lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Josh Shapiro]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Graves County Podcast Narrator]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley. Feed on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season Ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Josh Shapiro]

Saying a moment ago, people want to know who you are. They want genuineness, they want authenticity. They want to feel like they know who you are. And you know clearly that, that, that was not accomplished.

[Charlamagne tha God]

How much credit do you think President Trump should get for the Israel and Gaza peace deal?

[Josh Shapiro]

He deserves credit. And I gave him credit. I gave him credit for getting the hostages home. I think what I also said is he's got a hell of a lot of work to do on what I think is being called phase two. And phase two is arguably the most important piece of this. Now that the hostages are home and the war has stopped, the violence has stopped, you got to feed these folks in Gaza, you got to make sure that they get the humanitarian aid that they so desperately need. And you've got to get these other Arab nations to actually pony up and begin to rebuild those neighborhoods, rebuild that, that area. At the same time, Hamas has to be disarmed. They cannot continue to be in power. Look at what they've been doing just over the last 48 hours. They're, they're murdering their fellow citizens there because they don't like that they're supporting a rival political party or they believe that they collaborated with the Israelis. So you cannot allow Hamas to remain in power, and you've got to get aid in there and you've got to get the rebuilding process started. So, yeah, I give President Trump credit for what he did. By the same token, he's got a hell of a lot more work to do, and I hope he sees this through.

[Charlamagne tha God]

There's a lot of people who feel like the deal is incomplete, though, because a lot of the dead bodies haven't, they're still digging. The dead bodies haven't returned. And you know, when it comes, when you.

[Josh Shapiro]

Dead hostages. Dead hostages.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I'm sorry, when you say peace, it's like Hamas doesn't believe in Israel's right to exist and the current Israeli government doesn't believe in a two state solution. So how is there ever going to be peace?

[Josh Shapiro]

Look, I'll just tell you my views on this. And again, you asked me about the president before. I was trying to give you an honest answer on that. We got to figure out how to get to phase two. We got to disarm Hamas, get them out of power and invest in Gaza. Now, what does the future look like? And this is where I just have profound differences from Netanyahu. And I've been really outspoken about this even prior to October 7th absolutely. The only way you're going to have peace and stability in the region for a long time is if you're a kid growing up in the Palestinian areas and you believe you've got a future. You got a future because of the job you want, because the education you're getting, you know, whatever name is, by the way, the way, our kids feel like they've got a future here in this country. When people have hope and they believe that they can have a brighter future, they don't turn to terrorism, they don't turn to hate. Instead, they focus on loving and they focus on how to create a better future for themselves and their families. So to me, if you can stabilize the region, get Hamas out of power, and have the Arab world come together and invest, then you have to go on to the next phase of the conversation, which is a two state solution, something I have supported for quite some time. Hamas doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist. That's why they cannot be in power. Their whole charter calls for the destruction of Israel and destruction the killing of Jews. And on the same token, and Hamas terrorist group Netanyahu on the other side, the leader of Israel doesn't believe in a two state solution. So he either can't be in power. Right. If you're gonna get to a two state solution or the president needs to get him to change his views on that issue. Look, I'm not naive. You're not gonna get to a two state solution in the next few months or probably even year. But we've gotta get on a path where Palestinians can live their lives with dignity, where Israelis can live their lives with dignity and safety, and where everybody in the region feels like they have a, an opportunity for success and prosperity and promise in the future.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I feel, I agree with you about Hamas. I feel like Netanyahu should be removed from power too. And you've called him one of the worst leaders of all time. And you defend Israel clearly because you Jewish, right?

[Josh Shapiro]

No, not because I'm Jewish, because I think, first off, I love Israel. I think it is a wonderful country with a rich heritage. I think it is an incredible melting pot of people, Jewish and non Jewish. I also think it is vitally important to our national security. It is important to having stability in the region. You look around at these other Arab nations that have created relationships with Israel, where there is now commerce and other activities through what's known as the Abraham Accords and other agreements. They view Israel as critical for their future and vice versa. So I think for all Those reasons I support it. I. I don't like Netanyahu. I don't think that he's led Israel down a good path. I think he's been a destructive leader. I don't get a vote there. But I sure as heck hope that as we go forward here, either the president gets him to change his views, or the Israelis make a different choice in their election. That's their right to pick, not mine. But I think this is not just important because I'm a proud American Jew. This is important, I think, for America's, you know, national security interests.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Where's the line between criticizing Israeli policy and endorsing actions you believe cross moral or even legal boundaries?

[Josh Shapiro]

Explain what you're asking me. I don't feel like.

[Charlamagne tha God]

With Netanyahu, Right. Like, you know, you say he's one of the worst leaders of all time. Clearly he's. Some people have said he's crossed a lot of moral and legal boundaries. Like, like, so where is the line between, you know, criticizing him? But. And I guess endorsing those actions? Because if you. Because if you're kind of.

[Josh Shapiro]

I understand your question. Do you love this country?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Absolutely.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah. And do you think Donald Trump does a lot of messed up?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Absolutely.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah. That's the line. I mean, I think. I think we are obviously free in this country and there's freedom in Israel to be able to criticize leaders, to be able to say, I disagree with this policy. I don't like the way you did this. I don't like the way you prosecuted the war, whatever the case is. That's fair game, by the way. And it's fair game here in America to be able to call that out if you disagree. Now, when some people use that as a way to promote antisemitism and bigotry and hatred and Islamophobia, that's not okay. So I think criticizing policy, criticizing leaders, fair game. When you use that as an excuse to, you know, to criticize someone because of their faith or how they look or the way they're raising their kids, I think that crosses a line.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I agree. Let's stay here for a second. Right. Because I said Israeli policy, I probably should say Netanyahu policy. Right. All right. Or when you say America, do you say Trump policy? Right, right. But those are the leaders at the time. So should we generalize? Should they reflect the whole country?

[Josh Shapiro]

No, I think it should reflect the leaders who are in power. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm critical of President Trump, and I love this country. I mean, I serve this Country. I believe in the values of this country. I believe that we're a work in progress and that we're always perfecting our union. I believe that we're a country that in every chapter of our American story, we grow stronger, we grow more tolerant, we grow more just. And I also believe in this American story that we have chapters where we take two steps forward and one step back. And right now we're in the midst of taking a step back. Maybe you could even argue two or three or four or five steps back. It doesn't make me love this country any less. It actually makes me want to fight even harder to strengthen what I believe is, is, is the best of this nation.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And only reason I'm asking these questions is because, you know, I, A lot of people feel like AIPAC and pro Israel lobbyists have a lot of influence on elected officials here in America. Why do they have so much influence?

[Josh Shapiro]

You know, I don't know. I mean, I, I don't really deal with aipac. They're more dealing at the federal level. And look, I think you can broaden that out and say every lobbying group has too much power. I think we all can agree there's way too much money in politics and oftentimes that money brings with it undue influence. My focus every day is trying to get out and be with regular folk and hear what's on their minds and talk to parents about what they're worried about for their kids future and sort of try and get out of that echo chamber that oftentimes surround you when you're in the Capitol or when you're just in those circles and talk to real people every day. I think that's how I've been able to kind of keep my feel for, for where things are. I think it's why we're doing so well in, in Pennsylvania is you focus on regular people, not just the inside voices.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Because I read an article in the New York Times about Democrats pulling away from aipac. So clearly it's having some impact on them politically if they feel like they got to.

[Josh Shapiro]

I don't know. I mean, I think it's become a political issue. You've, you've used it as a political issue. You've questioned federal representatives when they're on here. I mean, I think if I can say this to you, not trying to offend you here, but I think it's a little bit of a shortcut and a little bit of a lazy question. I think the better question is how do you really feel about Israel? How you feel about a two state solution? How do you feel about the war, how do you feel about the hostages or hungry kids or what have you? I think demanding answers on those questions is more important than hey, what about this lobbying group or that lobbying group?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Well, what do you say to the critics who argue that U.S. foreign policy on Israel is often shaped not by national interest but by the lobbying strength of these?

[Josh Shapiro]

I, I think that's a fair conversation to have. And I think it should be on any elected official at the federal level to say, hey, I'm listening to this group. Or but by the way, there's groups on other sides too, I'm listening to that group. But at the end of the day, we want our federal representatives to be able to sit here in this chair and answer the questions about why they voted A or why they voted B, or why they feel a certain way. And I think it's just a little lazy to say, oh, it's got to be because of that interest group. Maybe someone actually believes those, those views or maybe someone feels strongly about that particular way.

[Charlamagne tha God]

So how do you push back on the lobbyists who have too much influence on politics?

[Josh Shapiro]

Kind of do it the way I do it, which is in my state I focus on the needs of the people, I focus on what I hear from folks. You know, I kind of have an informal rule that I work about seven days a week. I try and only be in my physical office in the Capitol about three days a week. And so I'm physically out and about listening to folks. I was on that farm in Lebanon county yesterday. Tomorrow morning I'll be in Erie, Pennsylvania. I think the more I am out and not in scripted moments but actually just talking to real folk, hearing what's on their minds, that allows me to keep fighting for them. I'll tell you something else I do, you're going to laugh, but I spent a lot of time on the Pennsylvania Turnpike on going different places. I will make a point to have the guys stop at a rest stop, even if I don't really need anything, just to wander through and chat with folks and see what's on their mind. Like I am always trying to find those moments where I can have the unscripted dialogue when I'm at my kids baseball game on the sideline or at one of their games, you know, rather than just let people kind of come over to you and say, oh hey you know Gov, it's nice to meet you or whatever. Can we take a selfie? It's hey, tell me what's on your mind? What's going on? Like, I'm happy to do the selfie with you, but in exchange for that, I want to know what you're thinking about. I am always craving those moments where I can have those conversations. And when I can have those conversations, then quite frankly, the powerful folks in the fancy suits that wander around the Capitol become less important to how you form your views on things.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, I see. I love that because you're out there connecting with people. That, that's, that shows real power to the people. To your point, folks in D.C. is connecting with the lobbyists, so they're giving the power to the lobbyist. I wonder if it's just a psychological thing like, yo, step out of dc. Step out of that bubble and go shake some hands.

[Josh Shapiro]

And I'm not, look, I'm not trying to be disrespectful to people that serve in Congress. I'm sure a lot of them do what I do and, and do a great job representing their, their communities. I'm just telling you how I do it.

[DJ Envy]

Now, you eliminated four year degree requirements for most state jobs.

[Josh Shapiro]

I did.

[DJ Envy]

Why? Was that important? And does that kind of tell a young student I don't have to get my degree anymore? Yeah, it seems college is getting less and less and less important.

[Josh Shapiro]

Well, look, this is something I'm super passionate about and. What? You didn't mention the question? It was literally the first thing I did as governor. So as soon as I got the power as governor and got got the pen, I signed an executive order doing away with the college degree requirement to work for state government. And by the way, it's basically every job other than the doctors and the nurses and, you know, people that we require to have those, those advanced degrees that opened up nearly 70,000 jobs to people without a college degree. And 61% of the people we've hired over the last two and a half years I've been governor do not have a college degree. And we didn't stop there. We went and tripled funding in our state budget for more votech. They got a fancy word for it now they call it CTE in our high schools and funding for more apprenticeship programs and pre apprenticeship programs. So now what we're saying to folks is, you're in the ninth grade, you're in the 10th grade. We want to help prepare you for your future. You want to go work on a farm, you can get CTE training in dairy herd management. You want to be a welder and work on a big construction project. Because God knows we need a whole lot more of that in this country. We, we'll show you in 10th, 11th, 12th grade how to do it. And then we'll have a pipeline right into an apprenticeship program that the state is helping fund. And then you'll be out in a job, by the way, making over a hundred thousand dollars a year. We want people to see avenues to success and opportunity where they choose to go to college, they choose to go to the military, they choose to go into the workforce in a union hall, whatever. And the most important thing here, envy, is I want to treat all of those pathways with, with respect. And you treat those pathways with respect by how you speak about them, but also your budgets show your values. And so we are investing in those things. And as a result, I've got 35,000 new Pennsylvanians who are going through an apprenticeship. I got young people who are now getting jobs that they never knew existed because they were exposed to it in high school. When we did away with the college year requirement for our state police, we saw a 240% increase in the number of applications to be a state trooper. And by the way, far more diverse applications than we've ever had before. If you look at this from the standpoint of right or wrong, man, I know we're doing what's right to give more people opportunity. I think, you know, every single American should have the freedom to chart their own course, the opportunity to succeed. But you want to come back to politics. We've talked a lot about politics today. Do you know how fricking dumb it is to not do this politically? Let me explain. 62% of Pennsylvania adults don't have a college degree. So you think about where our party has been over the last 20 years. Everything's been about get a college degree, you can do this, you get a college degree, you can do that. And by the way, I'm not dissing on college, right? I went to college. But if you talk like that, you are now saying to 62% of people, we disrespect you. And what you're really doing is you're developing plans only for 38% of folks. Last I checked, you need 50% plus one to win elections. And so to me, it was dumb politically, but it was also just wrong to treat people with a lack of respect. If they chose to go work at a construction site or work on a farm or decide to take the skills they have and not go to college, but go directly in the workforce or go to the military, we have Changed that in Pennsylvania, not just with that executive order, but with all of the funding decisions we've made from there to give more people an opportunity.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's crazy, though, because those are the people that really make the world go around. Those people that are on those construction sites.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

People that are in the trade industry.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Those people that really make the world go around.

[Josh Shapiro]

Let me put an exclamation point on that. They are the ones who make the world go around. America used to have an amazing history of shipbuilding, right? Building these big ships for the Navy and stuff like that. Do you know we've got the oldest shipyard in America in Philadelphia. It's actually where the US Navy began. We just celebrated the 250th anniversary of the Navy and the Marines as well. This shipyard currently produces one and a half of these massive ships a year. They build one and a half ships a year. We just worked out a deal with this Korean government and a company called Hanwha, where at that site they're going to now make 11 or 12 ships a year. By the way, in China, they're making that each month. They're making more than that each month. So America's got a long way to go. Why am I bringing this up? Because to get to that 11 or 12, we don't have enough welders right now to be able to do that work. America stopped training the people that were building the stuff that we need to for this country too many years ago. And we've got to get back to developing those talents so we can build these ships, we can build buildings, we can do big things again in America. And the way we do that is by having folks who have those skills, and we're investing in those skills. In Pennsylvania, I saw what you guys.

[Podcast Host]

Are doing with the PA sites program to the 39 million. Yeah, yeah, that's. So that will help with a lot of the jobs that you're talking about. There'll be more jobs for those people that didn't be able to.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah, absolutely. So we put a half a billion dollars aside to take these old abandoned coal mines and these old industrial sites where nothing's been going on for 40 or 50 years. I was just standing on one of those sites in Archbold, Pennsylvania, which is like near Scranton in northeastern Pennsylvania. And for a few tens of millions of dollars, we're going to turn that into a place that's going to have thousands of construction jobs and over a thousand permanent jobs. When I was having CEOs come and say, hey, we want to Come to Pennsylvania, show us the sites where we can build, you know, our box, our building. Like, we don't have any now we have them. And so when you do that, you really turn this dirt into freedom and opportunity, and you build these sites that are going to employ thousands of people. This is a big deal, especially in communities that have been hollowed out and left behind, primarily in rural parts of my state that have just been ignored for so long. And I think it's really important that these people growing up in these communities see opportunity for their kids and opportunities. I'm working really hard to do that in this CITES program. So developing these grounds for companies that want to come in and do business is a really critical part of that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I got a few more questions for you. Thank you for your time. But what's your message to people, future voters in particular, who feel like every politician, Democrat or Republican, is bought?

[Josh Shapiro]

Look at my record and focus on the three letters that I focus on every day. Gsd. Get shit done. That is. That is my motto every day. Look, I can't please all the people all the time. I can't say that every single Pennsylvania is going to have the same worldview I have. Agree with me on every issue. But if I can put points on the board for them every day, if I can show them that their kid got health care, that. That the building got built, that the job was available to them like real things, that is what we need more of in government, where people see tangible results. Look, I think one of the reasons why poll after poll after poll shows across this country, people are down. They think we're heading in the wrong direction. They're pessimistic. I think in part it's because they view government as actually not solving problems anymore. One of the things I thought was amazing was after we fixed I95, remember, I95 collapsed and the experts said it was going to take months to rebuild. We got it rebuilt with the amazing Philadelphia building trades in just 12 days. The number of people came over to me and said, man, I don't drive on i95, but that was amazing that government can still do something like that. I think people have grown so hopeless and so down. And so to me, as someone who actually believes government can be a force for good in people's lives, if I can show my work, put points on the board, get shit done for them every day, even if they disagree with me on some issue here or there, at least going to know I'm fighting for them. I'm getting stuff done for them. And that is what I think we need more of in government.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Is it possible for an elected official to get millions of dollars from corporate donors or even lobbying interest and still really work for the people over those people?

[Josh Shapiro]

Look, I mean, you've asked me a few questions on that, and clearly I know you're bothered by that. I think we're all bothered by the amount of money in politics, particularly the dark money that nobody kind of knows where it's coming from. But I think, you know, largely the voters. I'll just speak to Pennsylvania. They're smart, they know who's on their side. They see it. I got voters who sometimes show up and vote for Republicans, sometimes vote for Democrats. They get it. I think that dark money can pollute it sometimes, can crowd out the voices sometimes. But overall, I think voters are a lot smarter and they can see through that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

When's the last time you told a donor no, even though it cost you politically?

[Josh Shapiro]

That's happened many times in my career.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah.

[Josh Shapiro]

And I'm not suggesting anything unethical or illegal or the donor was trying to do anything unethical or illegal. But yeah, I've had them, you know, sometimes say to me, well, I would, I believe in this and that and the other thing. And I'll say, look, you know what? Keep your money. I'm happy to be your friend, but I don't believe in that and I'm not going to do that. And again, nothing wrong or unethical or illegal, but they've got a different view, view on things than I do. And frankly, I'm not interested in, you know, having their support if, if, if, you know, we're going to look at things differently on those fronts.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah, I'm, be honest. I don't have a problem with people taking the money. It's just that when you take the money and you're beholden to them, that's, that's, that's, that's what I would tell elected officials. You don't have to be beholden to them.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah, look, I feel blessed. I've got a whole lot of people who have invested in my campaigns over time. And by the way, I'm sure some of them don't agree with some of the things that, that I stand for, but they believe in, in my approach to governing and the work I'm trying to do to help other people. And I feel blessed to have their support. But I, I can tell you there's, there's not one donor or one group or whatever that I go, oh, man, I gotta please them. So I'm gonna do something that I disagree with. I mean, I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

[Charlamagne tha God]

People are going to. People will always assume it's apac, though. APAC is the boogeyman.

[Josh Shapiro]

And all of it's code for a lot. Yeah, yeah. And it's what I said to you before. And again, you know, I mean this with respect. I think in some ways it's a lazy shortcut. I think it's more important that folks are being forced to answer questions about what they see as necessary for that region or on that topic or on that issue.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Yeah. I just wonder if it's something that politicians are going to have to continue to explain in the future.

[Josh Shapiro]

Okay, so that is fair. I think if you're a politician and you take a dollar from someone, you need to be able to justify taking that dollar. And the justification could be, hey, look, they invested in my campaign. Doesn't mean I agree with them on every issue. A lot of people invest in the campaign. Right. I mean, I think that the burden is on the elected official or the candidate running for office on that front. For sure. I think that's fair. But I think to just kind of presuppose, well, took a dollar from Charlamagne. You must agree with everything Charlemagne thinks. I don't think that's fair.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And that's what people want. People want to make sure that they want you to ensure them that just because you took money from these lobby groups that these lobby groups don't have the influence over your decision making.

[Josh Shapiro]

I think, look, one of the things that I appreciate so much about how the people of Pennsylvania view me, and we see this in elections and polls after polls, they. They see me as being an independent voice and being someone on their side, and. And I'm proud of that.

[DJ Envy]

That's what it is. I know you have one last question. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah. I just saw that they had made an arrest yesterday in the K. Scott, the missing girl in Philadelphia, if you're familiar with the story. I just wanted to know, because there it seems like they're the police that are having issues with locating. I mean, she's still missing, but they don't have anything that they're tracing, like no cell phone, no anything. Do you guys bring in additional resources?

[DJ Envy]

That's the case because I'm not.

[Podcast Host]

So Kada Scott is a young woman. She's 23. She went. Young black woman went missing in Philadelphia from work. She was being Harassed via phone by someone. Prior to that, she told her parents. Now she's missing. She's been missing for some time. They just made an arrest in the case, a young man, but they haven't told us what the tie to him is in the case. But it seems like, though, they're having issues with finding her footsteps leading up to that, like cell phone, anything or just whereabouts whatsoever.

[Josh Shapiro]

I don't want to get ahead of the police on this. It is an awful, awful case. And just my prayers go out to her family. I can tell you that the Pennsylvania State Police, which, you know, which I oversee through, through our state police commissioner, we work very closely with local authorities, including the Philadelphia police. And the Philadelphia police are outstanding in these cases, and I have confidence that they'll get to the bottom of it. Our technology, our unique. Know how the, the tools we have to solve these kinds of cases are always brought to bear to work with our municipal partners to make sure that we address crime in our communities. I mean, this is an awful case and hopefully they'll get to the bottom of it. I would also just caution you, I mean this respectfully to you and anyone in the media. There are lots of cases where we can't share all the information with the media as we're working them, because sometimes you don't want something to come out at first. Ultimately, you provide that transparency when the case is sort of closed. But we're kind of still in the midst of this one right now. And so I think, you know, not everything is, is being shared, but I, I got a lot of faith in the Philadelphia police, and I can tell you that the Pennsylvania State Police is always at the ready to support them and every other municipal department.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I got one last question. You got a 62% approval rating, right? How do you measure success by. By polling numbers or lives changed?

[Josh Shapiro]

Oh, lives changed. And, and look for, as. For, as wonderful it is to have a 62% approval rating in the toughest state in the country to run in. I still rely not on the data that you cite, but the feel I get from people, whether on their farms and, you know, downtown in, you know, Pittsburgh, center city, Philly, walking down the street, having someone stop me and go, yo, Gov, and talk to me about something, that's where I get my feel from. And, and, you know, I measure it, you know, in terms of what people tell me they want done and going out and doing it, and the people's lives I touch along the way. I gotta tell you, I mean, for me, the motivation is not seeing a poll like that. It's when someone says, hey, Gov, five years ago, I reached out to you, and you were Attorney General back then, but you took on my case and you helped me get back my money after someone tried to scam me. That's the stuff that fills up my cup. It kind of goes back to the first question or one of the first questions you asked. Why do you do this? And what happens if your kids tell you not to do it? I'm one of these people that is motivated by helping others. And I do get fulfillment from people telling me I made their lives better. And there's just an extraordinary feeling that you get from that. It's how I was raised. It's what my faith has taught me, and that is what motivates me. Not, you know, numbers in a poll. I'm grateful for, for that support. But knowing I changed someone's life, knowing I made it better, and, and. And pursuing the next thing and the next thing, and the next thing that's going to help my communities out, you.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Know, a life that, that. That Governor Shapiro changed, that he doesn't talk about is Wallow. Yeah, he's the one who pardoned Wallow. What made you want to pardon Wallow?

[Josh Shapiro]

I think there are people out there who had one bad day, or in Wallow's case, had a few bad days. Let's be real. And there are those that don't learn from that, and they end up living sad and tragic lives, oftentimes in jail or in places that are dangerous for them. And then there are other people, and Wallow's a great example of that. He happens to be famous, so you know about him. But there's a whole lot of people who aren't famous who do this, who learn from that bad day, who learn from those bad decisions, and they not only turn their lives around for themselves, but they then make a difference for others. And those are the people that I try to find. Those are the people whose cases I want to come across my desk so I can affix my signature to a pardon for them. That is an enormous power that a governor has to be able to sign your name and wipe away someone's bad deeds and give them an opportunity in life again. And I will tell you, I take that power really, really seriously. Wallow earned that. He earned the right to have his case come across my desk, and he earned my signature because of the way in which he's lived his life and helped make other lives better, the way he's helped other People get back on the right track. The way he's helped other people achieve prosperity for them and their families, the. The way he's, I think, in many ways changed an industry, whether it's music or the kind of influencer industry or what have you. I mean, he's done extraordinary things and I'm proud of him. And I'll tell you what else I told him. I don't think he'd mind me sharing this. And I've said this to others who we've given second chances to, including those who have granted clemency to, which means letting them out of jail even though they were facing a life sentence. I tell them, don't screw up, because you are now an example to others. I said that to Meek. I've said that to a number of folks. You now have an enormous power to do good in the world, but you're also an example. And you've got an awesome amount of pressure and responsibility on you. And so live your life in a way where you acknowledge that pressure, you acknowledge that responsibility. And Man Wallow's done that. And I'm really, really proud of him. And I try and check in on him every so often and check in on others who I've issued pardons to her clemencies to just to see how they're doing.

[Charlamagne tha God]

You helped me, too. Yeah, but he didn't want to be on the helicopter. He didn't want to do no photo ops or anything. He's like, nope, no.

[Josh Shapiro]

Because that's not what it's about. This isn't about me being able to stand next to Meek or Wallow and, you know, some press thing. This is about knowing that they did the hard work to get their lives back together. And I've got this unique power for this moment in time as governor where I can give them some extra help. But with that comes a responsibility and they've got to own up to their end of the bargain. And they are.

[Podcast Host]

The way you are is how the spirit of so many other people in government should be like. Just the spirit I get from you in this conversation.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

There's a genuine care for people to end up.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Well, I agree.

[DJ Envy]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

And that you don't feel that all the time, hopefully.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I hope we got free and fair elections in 2028 so you can be in the mix.

[Podcast Host]

They hope they get it right.

[Josh Shapiro]

We're going to work to make sure we got free and fair elections.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Governor Josh Shapiro, thank you so much.

[Josh Shapiro]

Thanks, Gu. Always great. Whether he's running great bandwidth and we'll see. We're out. We're out.

[DJ Envy]

We'll see you in another week, though, too.

[Josh Shapiro]

I look forward to it. Thanks.

[DJ Envy]

Giants in Philly.

[Josh Shapiro]

Is that. We're just going to leave it there.

[DJ Envy]

Right there.

[Josh Shapiro]

Just leave right there. Listen, are you want to do this? We can do this. Okay. I think you guys are exciting. Jackson Dart is seemingly pretty good. Scatter Boo is pretty, pretty good. He lost. He lost. Neighbor. Malik neighbors, unfortunately. But you cannot, over a long season hang with the Eagles. You just can't. You just can't.

[DJ Envy]

I could pray.

[Josh Shapiro]

You would pray all you want, but you ain't going to be able to do it over a long season. But they are a team now, seemingly on the upswing, which I think is. Is a good thing. And look, the Birds have stumbled a little bit over the last couple weeks, but we'll get it back together.

[DJ Envy]

That's all right.

[Josh Shapiro]

Well, championship team right there.

[DJ Envy]

Governor Josh Shapiro is the Breakfast Club. Good morning.

[Josh Shapiro]

Wake that ass up in the morning.

[DJ Envy]

The Breakfast Club.

[Johnny Knoxville]

Hello, America's sweetheart. Johnny Knoxville here. I want to tell you about my new true crime podcast, Crimeless Hillbilly Heist from Smartless Media, Campside Media and big money players. It's a wild tale about a gang of high functioning nitwits who somehow pulled off America's third largest cash heist.

[Josh Shapiro]

Kind of like Rob, except for the part where he steals from the rich and gives to the poor. I'm not that generous.

[Johnny Knoxville]

It's a damn near inspiring true story for anyone out there who's ever shot for the moon, then just totally muffed up the landing.

[Josh Shapiro]

They stole $17 million and had not bought a ticket to help him escape. So we're sitting like, oh God, what do we do? What do we do? That was dumb. People, do not follow my example.

[Johnny Knoxville]

Listen to Crimeless Hillbilly Heist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Graves County Podcast Narrator]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Josh Shapiro]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

[Graves County Podcast Narrator]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Hunting for Answers Podcast Narrator]

Short on time, but big on true crime. On a recent episode of the podcast Hunting for Answers, I highlighted the story of 19 year old Lachey Dungey but she never knocked on that door. She never made it inside. And that text message would be the last time anyone would ever hear from her. Listen to Hunting for Answers from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I'm Jonathan Goldstein and on the new season of Heavyweight.

[Josh Shapiro]

And so I pointed the gun at.

[Smart Water Alkaline Advertiser]

Him and said, this isn't a joke.

[Charlamagne tha God]

A man who robbed a bank when he was 14 years old and a centenarian rediscovers a love lost 80 years ago.

[Smart Water Alkaline Advertiser]

How can one year old woman fall in love again?

[Charlamagne tha God]

Listen to heavyweight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.