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The Breakfast Club
INTERVIEW: Ryan Coogler Talks 'Sinners,' Michael B. Jordan, Denzel, Chadwick Boseman, Nipsey Hussle +More
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Ryan Coogler
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I'm Taylor Gray. Ezra Bridger, Spectre 6. And I'm Jon Librody, the Ghost Crew Stowaway moderator. Each week we're gonna rewatch and discuss an episode from the series and share some fun behind the scenes stories. Sometimes we'll be visited by special guests like Steve blume voices Zaborielio's Spectre 4 or Dante Bosco voices Jaquel. And so hang on because it's gonna be a fun ride. Cue the music. Listen to Potter Rebellion on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Are your ears bored? Yeah. Are you looking for a new podcast that will make you laugh, learn and say gay? Yeah. Then tune in to locatora radio season 10 today. Okay, now that's what I call a podcast. I'm Diosa I' the host of Locatora Radio, a radiophonic novella, which is just a very extra way of saying a podcast. Listen to Locatora Radio Season 10 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. From the producers who brought you Princess of South beach comes a new podcast, the Setup. The setup follows a lonely museum curator. But when the perfect man walks into his life. Well, I guess I'm saying I like it. You like me. He actually is too good to be true. This is a con. I'm conning you to get the Dalama painting. We could do this together. Listen to the setup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Wake that ass up early in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy Jess. Hilarious. Charlemagne, the guy we are the Breakfast Club. Jess is out today. Laura Rosa filling in. And we got a special guest in the building. He's back. Ladies and gentlemen, Ryan Coogler. Welcome back, brother. Man, it's nice to be here, bro. How you feeling? I'm feeling good, bro. Feeling good. We just premiered our movie last night, you know, so happy to. Happy to be at this stage of putting it out, you know, and happy to be here talking to y'all about it, man. One thing about Ryan, no matter what Ryan is doing, no matter how long he in Hollywood, that Oakland do not get up out of here. West coast, you can hear he every time you talk. I feel like you about to ask me what set I'm from. He's tripping, bro. We don't even. He did himself. Now, we are gonna ask somebody that in Oakland, bro. That's an LA thing, asking somebody that brought that set. But how do you stay so grounded, though? Like, you can hear the Oakland in you. Like you doing movies that got 90 million dollar budgets. But it don't change it. It's just my action. It's how I talk, bro. I can't change it. Yeah, you know, y'all can't just like how Emmy sound like he from New York, you know what I'm saying? It's just, I think what it is, it's not a lot of us from, like, that era. Like, me and Marshawn about the same age. Okay, he another one. Oakland never leaving him Dame litter quite younger than us, but he like of that era. But dame a little, you know what I'm saying? Dame a little bit younger. You know, it's a certain. Like every era of Oakland talk a little, talks a little different, you know what I'm saying? Like, my mom, she talks very proper, but it also has a little bit of the salt in it. A little more of the salt in it than us. And my grandmother, she's from, you know, born in Port Arthur, Texas. They moved to Oakland until she was 12. So she sounds completely like she like a Texan, you know what I'm saying? And then it's like. And it's like a class thing too. You feel me? Like my little brothers, you know, we moved to Richmond. Like, they don't remember. They don't really remember Oakland, you know what I'm saying? And we went to Catholic school, you feel me? So, like, they accent is slightly different from mine too. You know what I'm saying? My action, I know exactly where it's from, the era. It's from it got locked in when I was like 7 or 8 years old. And it's funny because my mom's. It's actually funny because my mom, remember when my accent started to change because I started hanging out, she was like, hey man, you talking like them, you know, saying you talking like them, you know, outside, you know what I'm saying? It's gonna get stuck like that. So my whole life I gotta, I gotta, I end up having to explain it, you know what I'm saying? But yeah, bro, it's just how I talk. I can't talk no different. Listen, I love it, you know what I mean? Go ahead. I was gonna say you mentioned Sinners yesterday, that the preview was yesterday. The pressure, I should say. So explain to people what Sinners is about. I'm sure they've seen the commercial, they've seen the trailers, but what is Sinners about? Yeah, man, like the plot or. Yeah, the plot. Yeah, yeah, the plot. It's about two twin brothers who come home to their hometown in Clarksdale, Mississippi after about seven years in Chicago. And they kind of, you know, they basically gangsters, you know what I mean? And very notorious. And they come home and pick up their little cousin who's this blues prodigy, and they got plans of opening up a juke joint, you know, which is like a black nightclub at that time. And so it's a 24 hour movie. They gather up all they friends from, they pass who start this business and then a vampire ends up showing up and, you know, things go a little left. How difficult was it directing one actor for two different roles? Because Michael B. Jordan plays the twin brother. I mean, it was, man, it was. Yeah, I guess, I guess I wouldn't want to talk about it like in terms of degree of difficulty, right? But it was definitely complicated, you know what I'm saying? But I got a great team, bro. I got great producers, fantastic visual effects department, you know, and we just came up with a plan on how to do it. I actually talked to a few filmmakers who had done things like it, you know, I was in conversation with Chris Nolan, who's a mentor of mine, and he did a similar thing. He actually did a couple movies that had like kind of twinning elements. He did a movie called the Prestige. Spoiler alert. It's a twin element in that. And then he also did a movie called Tenet that came out right at the start of the pandemic with John David Washington. And because got characters going back and forth in time. You got scenes where John David Washington is fighting himself, you know, So I talked to him a little bit. I was talking to him about just the format that we shot the film in. And we talked a little bit of twin era, too. But it was another filmmaker I know named Shawn Durkin who came up the Sundance route, and he had just done. He had just done a television series called Dead Ringers. It's a remake of a David Cronenberg film, But it started Rachel Weisz as twin gynecologists. You know what I'm saying? That identical twin gynecologist played by one actor. And I got on the phone with him for about. We probably talked for about an hour on how they made that work. And he ran it down to me, you know, kind of blow by blow at things I should be thinking about. And I'll be forever grateful. I'll be forever grateful to Sean, and I actually need to reach out to him, you know. But, yeah, like, it's a lot. It's very, very technical. But it's actually the hardest on Mike, you know what I'm saying? To be honest with you, because I'm. You know, I'm there with the camera and trying to. Trying to work it out, and some days more complicated than others. I don't know if y'all had a chance to see the film yet. That's not. Parts of it. Parts of it. Did you see that? Parts of it. Parts of it. Okay. Yeah. So for Michael, you know, you know, he had to. He had to embody two completely different people who were identical twins, which is a very, like, unique, specific type of person. Right. And on. And on days where, you know, where the twins were interacting, you know, he would have to start the day as one character, you know, go get changed and come back and then shoot another pass as the other character. We had to cast a twin double, which is an actor who basically is the same build, shape, height, complexion as Mike, to act across from him so he can know where. You know, where to look, but he's not talking to himself. Okay. So when I was watching it, because even the first time you see them on camera and they're standing next to each other, and I'm like, okay, I notice this technology, but I'm like, as an actor, I know you kind of feed off of, like, it's very, like, physical. So I was like, I wonder how Michael B. Jordan, like, what is he using to. Because their interaction is. Yeah. Now, Lauren want the stunt double number. She looked just like Michael. He built like. She can't get the original so she get the standard truck shout out the part she built when they killed a snake in the back of the truck. Even that. I'm like. I mean, that was something so small. But I'm like, you gotta know where your people are to know. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, how did they do that? I mean, look, a lot of work, man. You feel me? Like, we did a lot of work, but the most. But real talk, like, the highest degree of difficulty was on Mike. Like, acting is an insanely difficult thing to do. You know what I'm saying? Like, to. To. To. To be able to embody another. Another human being, you know? And in this case, he had to embody. He had to embody two of them that had an interdependent relationship on each other, right? So. So we had to make sure that Percy could act. But also, Mike had to. Had to know what he was gonna do, because Percy is not Mike, you know what I'm saying? So you had to kind of like, you know, we had to kind of walk through, all right, well, what would he do when he smoke or what would he do when he stacked? We had to decide who should go first, you know what I mean? Cause knowing that whoever goes second is gonna have to really feed off where the first one was, they can't walk through the body of the other one even though they're not there. We gotta map that out, you know, it was very technical, bro. You know what I mean? But I was so impressed with. I was so impressed with what Mike was able to do, man. I think these two performances are his two best performances he's ever done. And I've been there for all of us, not all of them, you feel me? But I've been there. I've been there for some of the. For some of the. You know, some of the great ones, I would say, like. Like, you know, I wasn't there for just mercy. I wasn't there for Jonathan Jordan, you know, Creed 2 and Creed 3. I was. Creed II was an executive producer. Creed 3, I produced. But. But. But as. As far as, like, what I. What I'm directing right there, standing next to the camera, watching him, you know, man, like. Like, straight up, like, you know, y'all haven't seen the movie, but it's two. His two brothers. These dudes is gangster, straight up, you know what I'm saying? Like, old school gangsters. Like, the. The gangsters that. The gangsters we came up under, look, you know? Came up under, you know. You know what I mean, and World War I veterans and, and, you know, and, and, and, and. And one brother is. Is. Is far more gangster than the other one. You know what I mean? We actually. It. It's funny because it was. It was. It was complicated because he's actually kind of cool, you know, Like. Like in constantly. More cunning than anything. You got that funny story about Nelly, bro. You know what I'm saying? When you said Nelly calmly told you, like, I got a contingency for everybody be like, yo, who's the person that came to the show that made you feel like they would really you up? I'm like, nelly. Yeah. And they like Nelly. Everybody be like, Nelly. It's because he had such a calm demeanor about him. So that. So where I'm from, bro, you know, you had the guys that was. You had the guys that was rah rah, and they didn't last long, you know, I mean, they got killed early, went to jail early. The dudes that. The dudes that last the longest is the dudes that'll sit right there and you don't even know. They just decided they gonna have you whacked. But that's. You know what I'm saying? Those gangsters, the real scary ones, even in New York, were the ones that didn't say much. Real quiet, real calm. Those are the ones you had to be scared of. Yeah. So that's Smoke in the movie. And I'll never forget, bro, like, day zero, when we were shooting, he came to shut us. He came to shut out Smoke and Ruth Carter, who's a legendary costumer, of course. She came up to me, and I could tell she was like a little bit flustered, you know what I'm saying? She was like, hey, you know, I got these. She's like, I got this jewelry, you know. You know, I got different, you know, like, kind of getting that costumes together. And she was saying, like. And, you know, you gotta look at it and tell me what you. What you want him to have. I put, you know, I put both things on him, you know, and she kind of was like, you know, I could tell she kind of had a. You know, so he walked. So Mike walked up and I've been knowing Mike a long time, bro. You know? You know what I mean? We homies, you feel me? And it's something while his energy is making my blood run cold, you know what I mean? So I asked him the question that she wanted. It was like something about a bracelet, if he wanted a bracelet or something or not. And I said, hey, bro, do you want the bracelet on this arm for smoke or this arm? And he said, I'm indifferent. But he said it in like this deep Southern accent, you know what I'm saying? And I looked at him and I was like, oh, shit. Completely, like, you know, he's completely somebody else, you know? You know what I'm saying? And he had like a thousand yard stare. You feel me? And I was like, oh, man, we gotta get to work. I put him right in the car and started shooting. I don't even know if I took the bracelet off or not. You know what I mean? Yeah. How do you. Well, two questions. Was that always the original plan for Michael to play both those characters? Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. So I guess you can't get in his mind, but how do you as a director prepare him to do two different roles? That's a great question, bro. So, so, so, miss. So it's so deep to it, bro, but like, I don't know what neighborhood y'all from. Are you from Queens? Queens? Yeah. Yeah. And South Carolina. Yes, sir. Yeah. So was it any. Was there any, like, hood twins when y'all grew up? It's always a set of hood twins. Okay. That's why I. What? Yeah. No, no, but. No. And. Okay. Where you from? I'm from Delaware. I'm from Wilmington, Delaware. Okay. Was it some. It was. Yeah. Actually, God rest her soul. They just. They. Because they still was getting into it. They just passed away this past summer. Yeah. Together. Yeah. You knew something. Yeah, we had. Yeah, we had, I think, one set of twins, but. But a lot of brothers. But one set of twins. Yeah. So. So you got brothers, right? You know what I'm saying? But then you got twins. Like. Like. So. So, like, where I'm from, a lot of hoods, you got. Got twins and that would be referred to as the twins. And then when you see him, you can't tell them apart. So a lot of people just call them twins, you know what I'm saying? Like. Like. I mean, like. But I used to think it was just like a West coast thing, but then I seen this film called the Craze, and it was white twins. That was. That was in. You know, it was in. It was cockney and doing. Doing a thing, you know, And I realized it was a. It was a. It was a whole thing. But in black culture, specifically West African culture, it's like a. It's like a spiritual thing. They're like twin deities out of Yoruba, out of the Yoruba religion, you know? What I'm saying. And the Yoruba people over indexing fraternal twins, you know, so as African Americans, we're most likely. That we're more likely to have twins than other than other people, right? Oh, great. But with identical twins, they scientifically don't even understand how it happens, you know, I'm saying, still a mystery of how. Of how that. Of how that fertilized egg splits and why it does, right? And my mom's older sisters are identical twins. My auntie Merlin and my Auntie Curlin, they in their 70s now, and they live right next door to each other. One of them is my godmother, you know what I'm saying? And the other one I'm still. I'm still super tight with, but they are completely identical, you know what I'm saying? With my whole life growing up, I could tell which one was which just by looking at how they hold their face, you know what I'm saying? And what their energy is like when they walk into it, when they walk into a room, right? So it's something I've always been cognizant of, something I've always thought about, and I always wanted to explore it. And with this movie, I wanted to hire some twin consultants for Mike to talk to. I got two homies named Noah and Logan Miller. They white dudes, but they from the Bay Area, not far from where Pac went to high school, right? And they real salt to the earth, dudes, street dudes. And it became. Became filmmakers, you know what I'm saying? Like, hustle with the hard way. Didn't go to film school, none of that. And I hit him up and they was down. They was like, yo, we talked to him about it, and, bro, it was mind blowing, man. They would write up these kind of journals, you know what I mean? For him to kind of look at and study. And they would kind of explain the mindset of an identical twin. And what I learned that was also fascinating was that when identical twins, siblings pass, like they don't live long after, you know? You know what I'm saying? Like, it's one of those things where it's such a symbiotic relationship, you know? You know what I'm saying? That, you know, you start from in utero with this, you know what I'm saying, with this person, you know what I mean? And you go through the world being othered, you know what I'm saying? I was also talking about how people would oftentimes play a game trying to tell them apart. And how dehumanizing that is for them, you know what I'm saying? It's something that they eventually get used to, but, you know, like, they work with Mike. It really helped me work with who these characters are, you know? You know what I mean? And I got to know my friends better, bro. I know I've been going for a while, but one funny thing I realized with them, I've been knowing him for, you know, for over a decade. Talk about knowing Logan. Knowing Logan. Yeah. I've been knowing him for over a decade. And I had him come over to my house in the bay just to kind of work through some stuff before. Before they sat down with Mike. And I'll never forget this. Like, they. They. They came and sat down on my couch, and they sit. Sidewalk. They sit side by side. You know what I mean? They completely identical, right? You'll notice this about identical twins who roll around a lot of times. They'll be. They'll be like. They'll be like, touching each other. And I'm looking and I say, hey, man, I noticed y'all, like. Y'all like, touching each other. Y'all close enough to each other to touch. And they like, yeah. And I'm like, when y'all. When y'all sit side by side like that, Is that for me or is that for y'all? And they say, it's for you, right? I'm like. And I'm like, so y'all don't need to be next to each other. It's like, nah. They was like, but it freaks people out when we not, you know, and, you know. Cause, you know, so it's like a thing. Like how you. How. You know, in old school, when you shake hands, you show both hands. That's how they. That's how they approach the world. And they say, as soon as we have a problem with somebody, like, if we feel. Like if we feel under threat or somebody get physical, the first thing they do is split up so that you can't. So you have to turn your head to see the other one. So then I was like, hey, have y'all ever had a. Like, have y'all ever had a one on one? And they said, only with each other. Wow. So. So for like. For like a whole life, I've been jumping people, you know? You know, like, it was straight up, like, I have a question about the movie. Just hearing you say that. And I don't know if maybe I might be digging too deep, but tell me if this is a thing. The first time we See Michael B. Jordan in the. The role. They're side by side. Yeah. And then the first time we see one of the twins, I think it's smoke. Have an issue where he. With the men in the back of the truck, he by himself. Y. Is that from that. Like that? Yeah, yeah. So you be really doing this thing like. Cuz just hearing the back, like the inspiration. Yes. Like that conversation. Because I have friends that are twins too, and I never thought about that. Well, yeah, like, like, like. So. So that, that's. That's the other thing we learned about. About. About these symbiotic relationships is like, when you get them by themselves, the individual. The individual differences come out and become more prevalent. Become more prevalent. And the thing with Smoking Stack is the whole dynamic. I don't want to ruin the movie, man. Comes out April 18th. Yeah. But the dynamic between them is one is inherently more violent and more practical. The other. The other one is. Is a. Is a. Is a kinder person. You know what I'm saying? So the situation she's talking about, smokes by himself and catching somebody trying to steal from. You know what I'm saying? And Stack's not there to be like, hey, let him ride, you know? You know? You know what I'm saying? So, you know, but. But Stack also needs, you know, saying needs Smoke because he's too lax, you know, I mean, two and two and too calm. So you see that, you know, you see the. The. The issues that arise with that when they split up for about, you know, 20, 25 minutes of the movie. What made you want to do this movie? Was it the complexity of what you're talking about or was it what caught you with this movie? There's some family ties, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I could talk about all of it here. It's the best place to talk about, man. Thank y'all for inviting me. Cause y'all get all of this. So look, I had an uncle named Uncle James Edmondson, and he was born and raised in Mississippi, but then fled to Oakland when he was like, in his 20s. So that's where I was born. And we probably like the second wave of the Great Migration, right? And he was basically like the oldest member of my family for oldest male member of my family for a long time. And. And my parents couldn't afford to buy a house in Oakland. We ended up moving to Richmond, which is, you know, essentially like Newark would be here in New York. Right. If Oakland was Brooklyn. And shortly after we moved, my Uncle James and his family moved. It Was like, down the block from me, you know, So I would go spend time with him. When I went to get out the house, I could walk to his house. And all he would do when he was off from work is he would listen to. He would either watch San Francisco Giants game on TV or he would listen to it on the radio if it wasn't televised. He'd drink Old Taylor whiskey and play blues records on vinyl, you know what I'm saying? And I came to associate that music with him. I didn't think about the music, you know, for me, you know what I'm saying? It was rapping R and B, right? But in 2015, he ended up passing away and he got sick while I was making Creed. So I was like. I was in Philly for most of the time while he was sick. Then I had to go to la, you know what I'm saying, and do post production. And I got the call that he died while I was like, I don't know, like, picture locking or something. And I felt like shit, bro. Can I cuss on this? Yeah, of course. Yeah. I felt like shit, bro. I remember being in the. In the hallway with my wife, who produced this movie Centers, and just. And just feeling like. Just feeling like, bro, what the am I doing, man? I'm not at home with my. You know what I'm saying? I'm like. I'm like. I'm like in a hallway in the middle of LA and some. Some dirty production facility, you know what I'm saying? And I met at home for the funeral, but I never reckoned with that feeling of not being there with somebody who was so important to me. And so I would find myself when I was thinking about him playing like, all blues records, you feel me? Like, and when I would listen to him, it was like, if I closed my eyes, it was like he was there with me, you know what I'm saying? Like, the power of music to be able to do that, right? And so. So you got that there was another element to it. So I've been making films based on other things basically my whole. My whole career, right? Like. Like, my first feature film was Fruitville, and I was based on a real. Like a real thing that happened, you know what I'm saying, where I'm from, right? And, you know, it's only. It's only so many ways you tell that story. And I was trying to tell it the way that had the most integrity for where I'm from, for his family and for who that young man was, who was murdered by that police officer, bro, right? And then I was fortunate enough to make a movie in the Rocky universe, right? You know what I'm saying? A movie about Apollo Creed's son. I got hired for the Black Panther movies, you know what I'm saying? You know, so these are all stuff based on other things. So I'm on Panther 2 and it's taken a long time. We had a lot of experience, a lot of tragedy, a lot of misfortune. It's a lot of shit. That wasn't just us, by the way. It was during the global pandemic, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, tragically lost our actor. Rest in peace. Yeah, rest in peace. So I had to refigure that out, you know what I'm saying? And keep it together with everybody who was involved, still wanted to make something. And our lead actress, lovely Letitia Wright, was injured on set. Had to shut down for that Omicron shut us down in Atlanta. Ended up being like a four year movie, bro. And I remember we was going through maybe the worst of it, man. And what would get me through, you know what I'm saying, while I was out there, was listening to. Was listening to some of my favorite artists, bro. And I was listening to a lot of Nip. Rest in peace. I was listening to a lot of Dolph, right? Rest in peace. But when I was listening to Dolph, bro, it wasn't rest in peace yet, bro. It wasn't rest in peace yet. And I'll never forget, bro, I think it was November 17, 2021. I'm in Byron, Georgia, bro, and I see my first Cotton Field driver seen in my life. Wow. We riding and I. And I. And I saw it and I told the driver, hey, man, pull over. You know what I'm saying? Bounced out. I had never seen one before, you know? You know what I mean? Driver white. Nah, hell no. Because he probably was like, yes. Finally trying to get them back in. Nah, he'll. Nah, bro. What was our driver name, baby? Craig. Oh, right, yeah, yeah. Shouts out to Craig, man. Black man from. Craig from New York. Yeah, Craig from New York. Okay. Yeah, black man from New York. But she was in it. We was in, you know, working out of Atlanta, right? Like, that's where everybody's making their movies in it. But I mean, Byron, bounce out, bro. And I go, I go, I go. I literally like went into the field just to see it, bro. I was having like a crazy ass, you know what I'm saying? Moment with like what that felt like. Um. The world is constantly changing. It's up to you to decide how to respond. Choose to be bold to try something new. Choose to reinvent yourself. That's what Nissan did with the all new, totally reimagined Kicks. The dynamic new exterior styling immediately announces that Nissan isn't messing around. The interior, a completely redesigned cabin with premium features like wireless Apple CarPlay and a panoramic moonroof make driving a Kicks immersive and exciting. 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Come on, who is it? Our podcast Hasta Bajo is where sports, music and fitness collide and we cover it all the Arriba hasa sit downs with real game changers in the sports world like Miami Dolphins CMO Priscilla Shumate, who is redefining what it means to be a Latina leader. It all changed when I had this guy come to me. He said to me, you know, you're not Latina enough. First of all, what is that? My mouth is wide open. Yeah. History makers like the Sucar family who became the first Peruvians to win a golden Grammy. It was a very special moment for us. It's been 15 years for me in this career. Finally, things are starting to shift into a different level. Listen to astav on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports Network. Dr. Joy here. You may know me from therapy for black girls where we're celebrating 400 episodes of the podcast. That's a whole lot of girl me too moments. For years we've had deep, thoughtful and inspiring conversations about black women's mental health. And now we're celebrating this milestone in a big way. In this special episode, Peloton Yogi Chelsea Jackson Roberts shares how yoga has taught her to stay grounded and present while balancing motherhood and self care. I can't control my partner. I can't control my child. I can't control anyone outside the way that I govern myself in this world. And the celebration doesn't stop there. We'll continue this milestone with Dr. Lauren Mims, who joins me to discuss the powerful yet sometimes challenging transition from girlhood to womanhood for Black Femmes. Together, we explore how we navigate this transformative journey with strength and grace. Black girlhood is giggling. It's sisterhood, but it is also, I think, focusing on learning how to cope with really difficult things that are happening with insights like these. This 400th episode celebration is one for the books. Listen to therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You say you'd never give in to a meltdown, never let kids toys take over the house and never fill your feed with kid photos. You'd never plan your life around their schedule, never lick your thumb to clean their face. And you'd never let them leave the house looking like less than their best. You say you'd never put a pacifier in your mouth to clean it. Never let them stay up too late and never let them run wild through the grocery store. Clean up on aisle six and aisle three. So when you say you'd never let them get into a car without you there. No, it can happen. One in four hot car deaths happen when a kid gets into an unlocked car and can't get out. Never happens before you leave the car. Always stop. Look lock. Brought to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council. Keep it a honey, bro. I couldn't. I couldn't describe it. I couldn't describe it, bro. Cause like, I felt guilty. I felt like, you know, I've been on this show, bro, talking about going to Africa, you know what I'm saying? And I wanted to get tapped in with my ancestors. But then Was my ancestors 400 years removed? This was my ancestors 100 years removed. Hadn't been there, hadn't seen it. You know what I'm saying? So it was like an overwhelming sense of guilt more than anything, right? And I took some, you know, and I believe that day when I heard he was married Dolph, you know, and I was. I had never met this dude. I never met Nip. You know what I'm saying. But I felt like both of them, but I felt like I knew him, you know what I'm saying? Like, from the music. And I remember being like, man, this, like, because. Because you gotta keep in mind, I was in the Bay, bro, going to football practice with my homies. When you heard Pac die and we would see Pac, you know. You know. You know what I'm saying? Like, it shut the whole foot. It shut our whole football practice down. The mamas was crying, the coaches was crying. And I'm like. I'm like, bro, as a fan of this music, bro, bro, it's been a lifetime of this, bro. Like, like. Like being in. Being in Philly on Creed and hearing that the Jack of Rest in Peace got killed, you know what I'm saying? Or that kick, the sneak got shot in the back. He paralyzed now. Like, I'm like, you know, my homies that came up and was rapping, he. Y'all never heard of. You feel me? That. And I'm like. I'm like, bro, I can't listen to this music right now, bro. I can't. I gotta take a break. You feel me? And I remember venting to my producer, who was from Central California. He's from Clovis, Black, man, but from a different culture there. And I say, man, I say, bro, what kind of music is there, bro? Where the artist talks about how to navigate, where they from, how to escape all the demons they dealing with, man? They succeed, get to their 30s and still fall victim to this shit, bro. What music exists like this? I was saying it like. He looked at me. He a smart dude, not more. He looked at me, bro, and in a real empathetic way, considered it. And he was like. He was like, man, my favorite music like that. I said, what music is that? He said, man, grunge music. I said, huh? He said, yeah, man. He said, we just lost Chris Cornell, bro. He was in his 50s. Yeah, they overdosed a lot. Yeah. He was like. He's like, all they music is about struggling with, you know what I'm saying? Struggling with, like, demons, depression and trying to kick dope, you know what I mean? And they end up, you know, they could get all the money in the world standing up, dying in hotel rooms, you know. I said. I said, damn, you know. And what's crazy is in the Bay, our biggest radio station is 106.1 came year. And the only rock song I ever played on that station, bro, coming up was Nirvana, which smelled like Teen Spirit. So I was like, man, let me dig into this grunge music. I'm gonna take a break from, you know what I'm saying, from rapping. I'm gonna listen to some grunge. And I started listening to it, bro, and I was like, man, this sound like what my uncle used to play. Like, I. I was. I was listening to. I was listening to, like, it's literally like, I'm listening to it. I'm listening to the guitar riffs and. And, like, what they talking about, and. And like, like the passion they sing with. And. And I'm like, that's odd, man. I dug into the research, man, and that's exactly what it is, you know what I'm saying? It's just. It's just. It just blew me the sun by white people, you know? You know what I'm saying? And that was when I was like. And this is. This is like within the same 24 hours, you know? You know what I'm saying? That was. That was when I was. That's when I was like, man, Sherry Cropping Blues, the evolution of it. The. The. The. The. The racist origins of genre as a concept, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm like, I think it's a movie in this, you know, And. And I'm just a big horror movie fan, bro. I like. I like. I like horror and all this fashion, and nobody really knew that about me, you know what I'm saying? Just because of the movies that I. That I made. So I put that with it, too. And, you know, this is how we got. How we got centers, if that makes sense. I want to say rest in peace to Nick because we just. It was the sixth anniversary of his passing. Yeah. Like, last week. And I also want to say rest in peace to Dolph. There's something going on with Dolph energetically. I don't know what it is, because I've been listening to young Dolph a lot in the past 48 hours. I've been saying, damn, I missed off. And I've been telling my. My wife and my. My. My cousin who's my trainer. Yeah. I'm like, y'all want some new Dolph music? And I don't know why I've been saying that the last 40 hours. I can show you my playlist. I'll show you mine. And how much Dolph I've been listening 48 hours. So now he got me through. Yeah. Rest in peace. Look, bro, like, nip. I just. I'll just talk. I'll Just talk to. I'll just talk. I just talked to Black Sham the other day, but with Nip. Rest in peace, bro. He. Me and my wife was going through a tough time, bro, when we released Panther 1. And, like, the whole. The whole. It was a really. It was really a odd experience because. Because from the outside in, we was on top. We was on top of the world, right? And we was, in a certain extent, but personally, we was going through some shit. And I. And I. And I, bro, I'll never. I'll never forget, bro. Shit was so heavy that. That. That, you know, we normally fly, you know, the Bay, the Beta la, Like a. Like a. You know, it's an hour flight. You feel me? But I was like. I was like, man, let's rent a car and let's drive up to Highway 1. Because we. All our whole lives, we're hearing about how beautiful Highway 1 is. So let's rent a car, let's drive up Highway 1. She just coached everybody. Been talking about our whole lives, you feel me? And she was like. She was like, all right, bet. So we put all our, you know, finished the movie. I went to Ava duvernays Wrinkling Time screening, because that's our. That's our sister, you feel me? Knocked that out. And we was like, let's get back to the crib. So we up the coast, bro, Man. Victory, Eli, whole ride. All right, turn off, man. Spin it back, right? And I always associate him with the feeling of healing. That album. That album brought us in that time, you know? You know what I'm saying? And. And my association with him was. One of my best friends was down from. He did roughly 10 years, but he went in when I was in film school. Came out the year Black Panther came out, you know what I'm saying? And I'll stay typed in with him, you know, money on his books, you know. And they would transfer him all over the country, you know what I'm saying? Every time he transferred him, bruh, he was like, bro, I need all my Nip albums, bro. I need. I need. I need them all. So I got to. I had to rebind Marathon. I had to find him, and I got. And I gotta find it on the. You know, on the prison system, you know? You know what I'm saying? And, you know, Nip got him through, you know, his incarceration. You feel me? So, yeah, bro, like, when. You know. And when you listen to somebody, you feel like you know him, bro. You know, it's just a different type of Y'all do radio, right? People probably listen to y'all every morning, think y'all they best friends, you know? You know what I'm saying? It's that type of. It's that type of get down, man. And I shot the movie to another filmmaker. My homie Cal Matic, who's from la, you know, did the House Party film and did the White Man Can't Jump sequel. And amazing music video director just did the Squabble up video, right? Show them sinners. First thing he said to me, man, he said, seeing them two dudes, it felt like. It felt like nip and sham, you know what I'm saying? And I wasn't even thinking about. I wasn't even thinking about the fact that these two. You know what I'm saying? These two brothers, like, hey, bro, we gonna get it. You know? You know what I'm saying? Like, when he said that to me, bro, that shit hit me on a different. You know, on a different level. Cause I was like, okay, yeah, okay. Maybe my cinematic language is getting to. Is getting to where it need to be. Because I'm putting things in. I'm feeling that I'm maybe not even thinking about, you know? You know what I'm saying? And that's crazy because when they talk about sinners, they talk about how you're. You're genre blending, right? 100, horror, drama and everything else. But you got to put hip hop in there too. Oh, it's all over there. When you see the movie, I feel like even in the way that the smoke and his brother's name. Smoking. His brother Stack. Stack. Smoking Stack. Even the way that they, like, maneuver and the way that they move, like, even. It's small stuff in there. And you. I'm hearing you say that it wasn't purposely, I guess, but even the way he pulls out his gun and stuff like that, it's like. It's so much to it. And when I was watching the parts that I did see of it, I was just sitting here thinking, like, wow. Like, I wonder how many times you sit and watch it and you catch something different every single time. Because it's like layered. And I think some of it is not on purpose. Like, does that happen to you still? Yeah, yeah. I'll oftentimes catch things with this movie, especially. Cause it was so personal, you know what I'm saying? And I've become a more experienced filmmaker, you know what I mean? And I'll be like, oh, I was doing that and I didn't. You know, I Didn't realize it. And the other thing that happens, man, when you work on, on. Because our art form is. It's a tricky one, right? Like, you know, for instance, the young, great legend Rod Wave watched the movie and then went. Knocked out a song for us in a day inspired by the film and sentenced the song. I'm like, you know. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, like, there's nothing we can. There's nothing else we can do for this. We can't touch it took him a night, you know, but we working in years, right? And what's crazy is, you know, you're not even the same person in four months, you know what I'm saying? Like, I've written a screenplay and then got to, like, the last day of shooting, I'm looking at the script, like, what the fuck was I? Like, who wrote this? You know what I'm saying? I often say that, like, man, what was I thinking? You know? You know, and I'm trying to get back into my own head, you know what I'm saying? From time passed. And, you know, we, you know, we editing the film and mixing the sound. And sometimes I'd be like, oh, that's what I meant, you know? You know. You know what I'm saying? Oh, like, that's what this is. You feel me? But, yeah, I still see things, man. And this wasn't based on anything, like, direct. So I was. So you pull from yourself, you know? You know what I'm saying? So I see a lot of. A lot of myself in it. I had to Google that when I was watching it. Like, is this based on a true story? Because it felt so. But the opening scene, too. It's. The center of the opening scene is the black church. Yeah. And it was such a powerful scene. And then you backtrack into, like, a completely different version of that character. Can you talk about the choice to. I don't want to give it away, but, like, I thought that that was, like, really powerful the way that you did it. I talk about that. Easy work. Yeah, yeah. So when I was doing. I did a lot of research on a movie. The two. The two, like, the big research workhorses for me were two books. Leroy Jones is blues people. Leroy Jones will later change his name to Amiri Baraka. But when you find that when you look for that text, it'll be. Because when he published it, it was Leroy Jones. It'll generally be published under that. That's a black man, Black intellectual talking about bullish culture. And then there's another book called Deep Blues by a musicologist named Robert Palmer, a white dude, you know what I'm saying, Talking about blues music. Both incredible books, man. But in researching those books and learning about the great Delta blues musicians. And it started with a guy named Charlie Patton, essentially, and it started on the Dockery Farms plantation in Mississippi is, you know, is where they kind of. Where they feel like the first true Delta blues song, as it's known, was played, right? But in his lineage, there comes Tommy Johnson, who's the first dude to run around and say he sold his soul to the devil to learn how to play. And it was Robert Johnson, who is the more known dude to kind of say he sold his soul to the devil to play. I remember those stories. Yeah. Yeah. And in between, there's a dude named Son House who essentially outlives all those guys. And what you learn is almost every single last one of these dudes not only came out of the church, but they daddies was preachers. It was like almost. It was like, almost constant, you know what I mean? And what I realized is I'm like, oh, like the African orator, you know? You know what I'm saying? Like, that's a. That's a long line from the. From the. From the. From the griot, you know what I'm saying? To. To, you know, to ride wave today, you know? You know. You know what I'm saying? And like, that. It's all versions of the same thing. The preacher at the pulpit, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, the musicality of the black preacher, you know, most known. Most known with Martin Luther King Jr. Right, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know the. You know what I'm saying? Like, the animation, you feel me? Like, that's all from the continent, but it was deeply refined, you know what I'm saying? In the American south, you know what I mean? And, you know, the best blues musicians basically came out of the church, and the blues was known as the devil's music, you know what I'm saying? It was a huge dichotomy. A lot of anxiety and judgment out of that and a lot of guilt, you know what I'm saying? Like, them dudes would be huge substance abusers. And Son House will basically go, like. He'll basically go like, five years drinking and playing blues music, five years sober and preaching. Five years drinking and playing blues music, ten years sober. Now he got his own church, you know what I'm saying? It was that kind of cycle. So that's why we started it like that. You know, they say you gotta go at 950, but I got three questions I gotta ask. Is it 950 yet, Pete? Like two minutes, okay? Different energy brings different things out of people. What did Chadwick Boseman bring out of you that Michael B. Jordan does, man? So, so, so that's a fantastic question, bro. It's a fantastic question because I just had to doing this press tour, you know, because, because out of all of my actors, bro, out of all of my actors, Chad's death actually hit Mike the hardest, you know, And I, I never had to talk about that. But we were doing press together now. And look, man, Chad was older than us, bro. Like, he was quite a bit older than us. Even though he looked like he was the same age, he was not, you know what I'm saying? I was a fully baked man from the south, you know what I'm saying? Like, he was an old school, he was an old school man's man. And compared to that dude, when we worked together, both me and Michael's kids, you know, you know what I'm saying? And, and, and what Chad taught me, bro, I mean, he changed my life, bro, you know what I'm saying? But, but, but he was, he was the kind of teacher who, who you never knew you was getting a lesson when he taught, you know, you know what I'm saying? It was, it was all, it was all by, all by example, you know, you know what I'm saying? And what he, what he gave me and Michael was patience, you know, he moved at a old school pace and he took his time. He was always early, you know what I'm saying? He was that type of dude, bro, you know what I'm saying? And I think that, you know, I don't think Mike, I don't think Mike would be. Look, man, I told him, and Mike will tell you this, I told him, man, I said, hey, bro, what would Chad do, you know what I'm saying? In this role, if he had this role, what would he do, you know? Cause Chad never broke accent, you know what I'm saying? He was talking in an African accent, bro. He putting up meeting for dinner at 9:00. I remember the Disney executives came and seen us on Panther like week two. And he pulled up and it was T'Challa's accent. What's going on? They was freaked out. And I was like, man, I'll be freaked out he working, man. That's how he don't turn it off till we rock, you know what I'm saying? And no shame or embarrassment in that, but that's how he was moving, you know what I'm saying? And for Mike to see that, to see that up close, to have to do scenes across from that, and then for me to be able to say that to him, you know what I'm saying, that he's transitioning, to become an ancestor and say, hey, bro, what would the big homie do? You know what I'm saying? Like, boom, locked in. You know what I'm saying? And look, bro, the difference is, man, look, man, won't never be another child, bro. You feel me? Like. Like, wow. So that's the difference. It's like. It's like asking somebody, hey, bro, what was it like to suit up across from. From Mike Jordan, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, like. Like, you know, it made you a better Hooper, I bet. You know? You know what I'm saying? Like, like. And, you know, and that's what it was, you know what I mean? I mean, got no one, you know, they gotta go. Yeah, do you? Hey, I don't know. I want to go. You gotta come back, right? There's so much we gotta say. It's so much. As long as y'all have me, right, I just want something. I just want something to. To sell, man. I want to tell people, go see the movie in theaters, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I guess I'll stay on chat with just a little. Because I recently saw a video where Denzel was speaking about his first time seeing Black Panther. Yeah. He said it made him feel like he could pass the torch because of you. Because of it. It was so much deeper than that. It was so much deeper than Denzel ever cite. Because he's humble. Look, man, Chi was at Howard University, bro, and. And he was maybe the fucking most brilliant actor to ever come through there, bro. And Phylicia Rashad knew it. He was there to be a filmmaker. If Phylicia Rashad wanted to send him to England, would I really do it? It'd be the equivalent of a Hooper. It's Victor Wembanyama, right? You in Paris, bro. We finish sending you to go hooper, LeBron. We finna send you to the States, you know what I'm saying? And go, really? 82 game season against where? Basketball is life, you know what I'm saying? In. In the uk, acting his life, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's where. That's where it's at, right? Felicia was like, I want to get you to Oxford. I want to get you on stage in London. Shot from Anderson, South Carolina, right? Like, man, I worry I'm. Find somebody to take care of you. Goes to Denzel. Denzel says, I want to take care of it for the kid, but I want them to know it's me, and I don't want to know nothing about it. Wow, right? Felicia said, hey, we got a donor for you. Sends him off to Oxford. He goes and shuts the shit down. Comes back, Chadwick Boseman, right? You know what I'm saying? Later on in his career, Felicia puts him to the side and said, hey, man, I was Denzel that paid for that. Wow. Wow. Chadwick seized Denzel and passion for years and years and years and years. In years and years. It's the patience I'm talking about. Knew it wasn't time to tell him yet, right? We premiere in la, premiere in New York. Denzel said, I can pull up. He was doing Broadway. I think he was doing the Iceman Cometh or something. He said, I can pull up. I said, all right, bet. I told my actors, I said, hey, Denzel, coming tonight? Try to immediately pull me to the side. I got to talk to him before. Before they go in and watch. And I said, what's going on? He whispered in my ear, bro, I gotta thank him for something. You know what I'm saying? So Denzel, pull up, man. Denzel don't like to be. He's not a Hollywood person. Crazy enough, he wanted to come in through the back door. He didn't want to do the carpet. You know, he dresses very down. And so I grabbed him. I said, man, somebody want to talk to you. Put him to the side. My wife was there. It was me, Zenzi, and Denzel and Chad in a room in a DJI theater in New York, right here in Manhattan. And Denzel, pull up. I was like, hey, man, what's going on? You know? And Chad. Chad whispered in his ear and said, bro, that was me, and thanked him, bruh. That's why Denzel was crying, you know what I'm saying? When he watched the movie. Like it was because of that. And for me, I don't think it's gonna drop. I think I got it. You got it. Look, I grabbed one, too. I felt it. I'm not. So that's the look, man. Do you know how many actors, bro, as soon as they would have got on, they would have been on the show and said, yeah, man, Denzel paid for me to go To Oxford. Do you know how many articles they would have got out of that? Yeah, 42. Press run. I'm Jackie Robinson. Oh, yeah, man. By the way, Denzel paid for me to. Nah, told him to. His Tony to his. That's real. That's why it's almost impossible for you to even think about recasting a child. Yeah, no, no, it's not. I mean, it's. But with the multiverse, it makes it a little. I mean, we talk about that next to the next year. Well, can I ask one more question about sinners? And it's really about Mike. Cause the relationship you and Mike have, I think, does not get enough credit. I really don't like. Y'all are unity and group operation personified. Do y'all have a symbiotic relationship? Or did it. Was it immediate or did it develop over time? It developed, bro. Liken it to. I'll liken it to a quarterback, you know, in a wide out, you know what I'm saying? Like, I play receiver in college football. And it's like that. Like, it gets to the point where, you know, we got a shorthand and we hold each other accountable. We also push each other. Like, we're not trying to do the same thing we did before. You know, we're not. We're not going to show up and go through the motions. We trying to show up and get bigger and better each time. But the thing about. But, brother, keep it a honey, man. The thing I love the most about Mike is his kindness, bro. Like, he's the number one on the call. She big old giant fucking movie star. He's incredibly kind to everybody on set. Focus. Knows the ad's name, knows the PA's name. Don't come on the set. Hey, don't look me in the eye, you know what I'm saying? Never raise a good voice to anybody. You know? You know what I mean? And. And he works his ass off. So. So it sets a tone for everybody that you're gonna be respectful. You're respectful to the PA, up top, to the producer. We're gonna respect women, you know what I'm saying? Like, we're gonna be. Gonna be kind, you know what I mean? We're not gonna. You know, a film set can get. Can get gnarly, you know what I mean? If you don't, you know, if you don't set the right tone, right? So for me, I'm always. He always gonna have a job if I'm making something. And he a good person, even when you See him in his element. He'll take pictures with kids. He'll stop to take pictures, to speak to older people. Especially when he In Jersey, it's 10 times worse. Yeah, we gonna be out in Newark tonight for a screening. Yeah, yeah. So he's, like, really like that. Besides, he just don't like charlamagne. But besides that not true. Charlamagne. Always messing up about the type of women. He like that, man. That me and Mike good. Cut it. He don't like charlamagne, but I don't know about that. How's that? Nice fullness of emotion. And here you come. So dumb. He's a good. I just messed with him a couple times about the white women he was dating. I'll stay away from. Oh, that's crazy. Make. Don't. Don't let Dr. Umar down. That's all. Nothing crazy. But now he's a good. He's a good. I promise you one last thing that three times. How do you accept an apology from Denzel Washington? Because he said he apologized to you. Like, you. That's. That's the. That's the og like, do you even accept, Like. Nah, he. Do you even get mad at him? Yeah. No, man. Nah, man, I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm blessed to have him in my life, bro. Like, straight up, man. And. And I'm blessed through. Through having him. I get Pauletta, who a bigger blessing. You know what I'm saying? Well, I just seen it. Well, I just seen last night. Yeah, man, he had. Owe me no apology, bro. Him saying that we gonna work together, apologize for that. Yeah, it's crazy. That's what I'm saying. That's what. When he called you, he was just like. He was. He was more than. More than anything. He was like, hey, bro, did I say too much? Like, it wasn't. It wasn't. You know, I say too much, man. I didn't mean to make it hard. I'm like, nah, you good. You good. Denzel, I was just happy to hear from you, man. You FaceTime me on the whole hype. You know what I mean? But it's just. I'm blessed, bro, to be able to. To be able to, you know, to have these mentors, bro. Like, I feel like God looks after me, bro. When I lose one, I gain one, you know? You know what I'm saying? And I started off talking about this, losing my uncle, right? You know what I'm saying? And I'm the oldest of three brothers. I've been looking for Big brothers my whole life, you know what I'm saying? And when I gain, you know what I mean? Like people who can give me any type of mentorship or advice, and, you know, it's the most incredible blessing. So, you know, apologies, man. And I think more than anything, he just. He just wanted to make sure that he ain't speak out of school. How intense all of them, all of the comic book stuff can get, you know what I'm saying? We need you, Ryan. I mean, you know, with the way they trying to erase our history out here, we need brothers like you that represent, you know, black culture and tell black stories. I need y'all, bro. I need y'all. Y'all. Y'all work ethic in the relationship y'all done built up with the audiences, you know what I'm saying? The trust. So I could tell them, go see centers. That's right. April 18th. Go see that IMAX, because that's how we shot it on film on big, giant IMAX cameras and super wide ultra Panavision 70 millimeter for the first time, you know? And you're gonna see. You're gonna see people, all shades and colors on the screen on a movie. A rollercoaster ride of emotion plays like a rock concert, you know what I'm saying? Cause of the work that y'all do, you feel me? We able to come and tell people about, you know, what we got going on, man. So we need each other. You feel me? Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Go check it out. April 18th. Sinners. Ladies and gentlemen, Ryan Coogler. Thank you for joining us, man. Thank y'all, bro. And don't be a stranger. You in town. Come on up here. Bet it up. All right. The Breakfast Club. Good morning. Wake that ass up early in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Taking control of your career is empowering. Just don't tell my boss I said that. Building a career isn't just about a job. It's about creating a path that impacts our community and future generations. Whether you're starting out or making big moves, State Farm is here to support you with resources to help protect what you're working hard to achieve. They've got your back every step of the way. Because, like a good neighbor. State forum is there. Find out more@stateforum.com welcome to Pod of Rebellion, our new Star Wars Rebels Rewatch podcast. I'm Vanessa Marshall, voice of Harrison Duelist Specter 2. I'm Tia Sircar. Sabine Wren, Spectre 5. I'm Taylor Gray. Ezra Bridger, Spectre 6. And I'm Jon Lee Brody, the Ghost Crew Stowaway moderator. Each week we're gonna rewatch and discuss an episode from the series and share some fun behind the scenes stories. Sometimes we'll be visited by special guests like Steve blum voices Zabarelio Spectre 4 or Dante Bosco voices Jaquel and many others. So hang on because it's going to be a fun ride. Cue the music. Listen to Potter Rebellion on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Cyrus the Great of Persia was a conqueror and he tried to increase his empire by marrying Tomyris, the widow of the king of the Massengeti people. She refused his offer and so he decided that he would invade her kingdom instead. Turns out that was a big mistake. Listen to the latest episode of Noble Blood available now. Listen to Noble blood on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm ready to fight. Oh, this is Fighting Words. Okay, I'll put the hammer back. Hi, I'm George M. Johnson, a best selling author with a second most banned book in America. Now more than ever, we need to use our voices to fight back. Part of the power of black queer creativity is the fact that we got us. You know, we are the greatest culture makers in world history. Listen to Fighting words on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.