INTERVIEW: Tamika D. Mallory On Finding Her Voice, Boycotting Companies Rolling Back DEI, New Book + More

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Breakfast Club – Tamika D. Mallory On Finding Her Voice, Boycotting Companies Rolling Back DEI, New Book + More

Episode Information:

• Title: INTERVIEW: Tamika D. Mallory On Finding Her Voice, Boycotting Companies Rolling Back DEI, New Book + More
• Host: The Breakfast Club with DJ Envy and Charlamagne Tha God
• Guest: Tamika D. Mallory
• Release Date: February 11, 2025

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Introduction

The episode kicks off with the vibrant energy typical of The Breakfast Club. DJ Envy and Charlamagne Tha God introduce Tamika D. Mallory, a prominent civil rights activist and author, who joins them to discuss her newly released memoir, I Live to Tell a Story: A Memoir of Love, Legacy, and Resilience.

Book Deal and Creative Control

Tamika recounts her journey to publishing her memoir, emphasizing the importance of creative control in her book deal.

Tamika D. Mallory [00:31]: "I had a lot of creative control here. I would text you and say, they're not listening to me. Tell them something, you know."

She credits Charlamagne as family who supported her decision to opt for an imprint where she could retain her narrative voice.

Distinguishing Memoir from "State of Emergency"

DJ Envy probes into the differences between her memoir and her previous work, "State of Emergency."

Tamika D. Mallory [01:36]: "State of Emergency was more so my theory of change for America... This book is a prescription for me."

Tamika explains that while "State of Emergency" laid out strategies for societal change and allyship, her memoir aims to resonate personally with readers, particularly young black girls, by sharing her own challenges and resilience.

Book Cover Significance

The conversation turns to the distinctive cover design of her memoir, featuring her iconic cornrows juxtaposed with a full-blown bust.

Jess Hilarious [03:13]: "What was the decision to do? Cause the front of the book, there's the braids on one side and the back of the book is the full blown 30 inch bust down."

Tamika elaborates on how the cover reflects her multifaceted identity and the importance of black housing projects in her upbringing.

Tamika D. Mallory [05:22]: "This cover is more than just a cover. It's like telling you a story about what's in the book and what's in my life."

Finding Her Voice and Strategic Communication

Tamika discusses her evolution in using her voice more wisely and strategically, moving from constant debates to impactful, timing-sensitive advocacy.

Tamika D. Mallory [07:18]: "I have learned to protect my peace. ... So I just decided to make my voice mean more by using it at the appropriate time."

She underscores the importance of focusing energy on meaningful actions rather than engaging in every possible argument, a lesson solidified during the Women's March.

Tamika D. Mallory [08:56]: "Once I started seeing how many people have the same experience, I knew it was time for me to release this story."

The Women's March and Internal Movement Challenges

Charlamagne Tha God questions the longevity and internal dynamics of the Women's March, prompting Tamika to reflect on the complexities of maintaining unity within a movement.

Tamika D. Mallory [14:23]: "We were trailblazers... now some people are trying to take credit without understanding the foundation we built."

She acknowledges ongoing efforts to make the Women's March more inclusive, particularly for black women, while expressing frustration over internal conflicts and the slow pace of progress.

Dealing with Attacks and Upholding Nonviolence

The discussion delves into how Tamika navigates attacks from both external adversaries and within her movement, maintaining a stance rooted in nonviolence inspired by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Tamika D. Mallory [16:00]: "I have always tried to maintain a posture of not getting into a public battle... Carmen Perez would say, you attack the forces of evil and not people doing evil."

She recounts a documentary scene illustrating the tension between Dr. King and Stokely Carmichael, highlighting her approach to handling differing strategies within the same overarching goal.

Inside and Outside Strategies in Activism

DJ Envy introduces the concept of balancing internal and external strategies in activism, referencing historical and contemporary figures.

Tamika D. Mallory [20:13]: "We have to have that inside, outside game... It's problematic people all over the place."

Tamika emphasizes the necessity of coordinating both internal advocacy within institutions and external protests to effectively combat systemic issues like white supremacy and racism.

Boycotting Corporations Rolling Back DEI

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Tamika's activism against corporations retracting their Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives, particularly Target.

Tamika D. Mallory [25:44]: "We shouldn't show up in spaces where people are saying they don't want... I'm actively black."

She advocates for strategic consumer boycotts, encouraging the black community to redirect their spending towards black-owned businesses to counteract corporate rollbacks of DEI commitments.

Tamika D. Mallory [31:42]: "People are big consumers... once you are able to say, I'm going to join this movement and start to boycott, it's easier to start thinking, what else can we do together?"

Navigating the Fragmented Landscape of Social Media Activism

DJ Envy raises concerns about the fragmentation of protest movements in the age of social media, questioning how coordinated efforts can be maintained.

Tamika D. Mallory [59:29]: "It's not perfect... but it's a continuation of what we've been doing."

Tamika explains the grassroots origins of the boycott movement, highlighting the importance of on-the-ground activism alongside digital efforts to ensure cohesive and effective protests.

Personal Trauma and Resilience

In a deeply personal moment, Tamika shares her experiences with sexual abuse as a child, discussing how writing her memoir has been a form of healing and empowerment.

Tamika D. Mallory [73:14]: "I went through all of that, and I'm still here... taking care of myself looked like writing it down."

She recounts a harrowing incident where a neighbor intervened to save her from potential assault, illustrating her resilience and the impact of community support.

Tamika D. Mallory [73:52]: "The mother of one of the boys saved my life... I got out of there with a pit bull sitting in front of the door."

Balancing Activism with Personal Well-being

The hosts inquire about how Tamika manages her personal struggles while being on the front lines of activism.

Jess Hilarious [73:19]: "When do you take time to deal with your own personal stuff?"

Tamika shares that she has become better at managing her emotions, utilizing support systems and her experiences in rehab to prioritize her mental health.

Tamika D. Mallory [73:55]: "Take care of me now... I will die fighting for freedom, but this time freedom includes me."

Conclusion and Upcoming Events

As the interview winds down, Tamika promotes her book tour and upcoming events, emphasizing community engagement and continued activism.

Tamika D. Mallory [80:00]: "I'm going to have events in New York, D.C., Tulsa, New Orleans, Miami, Jacksonville, and Atlanta... you can see where I am all over the country."

She encourages listeners to support her efforts by attending events and purchasing her book from black-owned bookstores.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Tamika D. Mallory [01:36]:

   "State of Emergency was more so my theory of change for America... This book is a prescription for me."

2. Tamika D. Mallory [05:22]:

   "This cover is more than just a cover. It's like telling you a story about what's in the book and what's in my life."

3. Tamika D. Mallory [07:18]:

   "I have learned to protect my peace... I just decided to make my voice mean more by using it at the appropriate time."

4. Tamika D. Mallory [16:00]:

   "I have always tried to maintain a posture of not getting into a public battle... you attack the forces of evil and not people doing evil."

5. Tamika D. Mallory [25:44]:

   "We shouldn't show up in spaces where people are saying they don't want... I'm actively black."

6. Tamika D. Mallory [73:55]:

   "I went through all of that, and I'm still here... taking care of myself looked like writing it down."

Key Themes and Insights

• Empowerment Through Storytelling: Tamika emphasizes the power of personal narratives in inspiring and guiding others, particularly young black girls, to find their own voices and resilience.

• Strategic Activism: The discussion highlights the necessity of balancing internal advocacy within institutions with external protests and consumer boycotts to effect systemic change.

• Resilience and Healing: Tamika’s personal story of overcoming trauma underscores the importance of self-care and community support in sustaining long-term activism.

• Corporate Accountability: The episode delves into the complexities of holding corporations accountable for rolling back DEI initiatives, advocating for informed consumer choices and economic empowerment within the black community.

• Generational Wisdom: Tamika bridges the efforts of past civil rights leaders with contemporary activism, stressing the importance of both elder wisdom and youthful energy in progressive movements.

Conclusion

This episode of The Breakfast Club offers a profound and multifaceted conversation with Tamika D. Mallory, blending personal memoir with strategic activism. Tamika’s insights into consumer boycotts, corporate accountability, and personal resilience provide listeners with both inspiration and actionable strategies for contributing to ongoing social justice movements. Her dedication to empowering the black community through economic means and storytelling serves as a compelling call to action for all who seek meaningful change.

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Note: For listeners interested in Tamika D. Mallory's work, her memoir I Live to Tell a Story is available at major bookstores and online retailers, with events scheduled across various cities to engage and inspire communities nationwide.

Transcript

[Tameka Mallory]

Wake that ass up.

[DJ Envy]

Early in the morning. The Breakfast Club.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy. Jess. Hilarious. Charlemagne, the guy. We are the breakfast club. Lauren LaRosa filling in for Jess. And we got a special guest in the building.

[DJ Envy]

Yes, indeed.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Her new book is out right now. I live to tell a story. A memoir of love, legacy, and resilience. Ladies and gentlemen, Tameka Mallory.

[DJ Envy]

Welcome back.

[Tameka Mallory]

What's going on, family?

[Charlamagne tha God]

How you feeling?

[Tameka Mallory]

It's good to see y'all. I'm good. I'm feeling excited, pumped up. Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

Today. Today came out today. I love to tell the story. Her memoir.

[Tameka Mallory]

Yes. And thank you, my brother. Thank you. Because, you know, Charlamagne and I, as family, made some decisions about my book deal. I called him to say, hey, I don't know. Am I supposed to. It was during the summer. No, it was 2021. I don't know.

[DJ Envy]

2020.

[Tameka Mallory]

It was 2020, right? Cause the book was released in 2021. So, you know, I called him to be like, hey, they offering me a lot of money, but there's a lot of people offering me different deals. What should I do? So he's like, well, you know, I have a new imprint, and, you know, if you want to be my first book, I'm down to do a deal with you. And I was like, oh, I didn't even need to hear the rest of it. I just said yes. And I'm excited. I'm glad that I did. I had a lot of creative control here. I would text you and say, they're not listening to me. Tell them something, you know, but it worked out. The whole team has put a lot of love and energy in these both books, but this one right here is real special to me.

[DJ Envy]

What's the difference in mindset when it comes to a memoir? Because I live to tell the story as a memoir. State of Emergency wasn't a memoir. What's the difference between the two?

[Tameka Mallory]

Yeah, State of Emergency was more so my theory of change for America. It was really a prescription for what I think we need to do as a country, and especially how people can be not just allies of ours, but really accomplices, like, throw down with us, get yourself in trouble if you really stand with black people. But this book is a prescription for me, and hopefully what comes out of it is that somebody else will read the book and say, wow, I've had some of the same challenges, or I was thinking of going down the same path, but I see something different that I can do. And I know there's a lot of people out here, especially young girls, who need somebody to tell them that their mistakes are not the end of life, you know, because everybody gonna tell you, oh, you too fast, you too loud, you talk too much. That's what, that's the black girl experience. I'm sure, you know, we talk all the time, but, you know, but, but I think what you now see is that people pay me to talk. Right? So I went from being told that I needed to be quiet to people saying, hey, speak up, you, you know, and speak up for me. So I'm hoping that it translates in that way. And in fact, a lot of people got pre copies and you know, all the things that happens in the publishing world. And I've already been hearing from people and I'm on my third tour date pre release. Well, now release. But the folks who are meeting me and saying, hey, you touched me in so many ways just because you, you were honest about things we try to hide. That has been really powerful.

[Jess Hilarious]

What was the decision to do? Cause the front of the book, there's the braids on one side and the back of the book is the full blown 30 inch bust down.

[Tameka Mallory]

Exactly.

[Jess Hilarious]

What was that decision?

[DJ Envy]

What was that under the wig? Braids.

[Tameka Mallory]

Yeah, so, yeah, so I came up with that. My mother kept saying, your first book was really good and I loved it, but your picture needs to be on it. And I was like, mom, my memoir is going to have a picture. And I was tossing and turning with how to represent myself properly. The cornrows people know me for. Especially if you met me after George Floyd passed away because of, or was killed because of the viral speech in Minneapolis. You probably met the cornrow girl. Cause that was all we had. Especially during the pandemic. I could only get some cornrows from my homegirl who does my hair, who was braiding. But we weren't like weaving and doing all of that, spending eight hours in the salon. So I was out in the summertime in Kentucky. It was hot. Everything was closed down. The cornrows worked and a lot of people met me that way. And that's me. I'm on the ground. I love my cornrows. You see, I've decided to keep this look even during this release. But that's just, that's not. I'm not one dimensional. Right. My bust down is another part of my life. I like to be a girly girl. And so I've struggled with how to do both things. Could I put two pictures? Would it have been too much? And then I just Came up with this idea that I wanted to half do. And everybody thought I was absolutely crazy until they designed it and came back and said, you know what? This might actually work. And the other thing that people don't really see and, well, you know, I point it out all the time, is that the housing projects I was born and raised in is in the background of the book. So you can see the buildings, literally where I grew up. And it's really. This cover is more than just a cover. It's like telling you a story about what's in the book and what's in my life.

[DJ Envy]

Is that where you find your voice in those housing projects?

[Tameka Mallory]

Absolutely. Because, you know, in the book, there's a part where it talks about me running around the house as a little kid saying, power to the people. Power to the people. And everybody in my house is like, okay, we get it. Power to the people. But we tired, go to sleep. My parents have always been super duper black. They wear dashiki sweatsuits. You know, they like that black kufis black. And, you know, they always took me to places and spaces where I was empowered, even as a young kid. You know, you take your kids places and don't think they're paying attention. But it was getting in me from. So it translated into, you know, where I am today. And it's been all throughout my life, what I have learned is when and where to speak. I've learned to be more mindful and careful about what I say, you know, and where I say it. But when I was young, I just was like, I'm gonna say anything. Cause y'all said, power to the people.

[Jess Hilarious]

So, hey, you feel like you gotta go to extreme.

[DJ Envy]

That's a good point. Cause I like, you know, they always say the opposite of courage is not cowardice, is conformity. So you think that's conforming?

[Tameka Mallory]

Well, I don't think I was conforming. I think, or now I don't think I'm conforming, but I'm just wiser, you know? And I also have learned to protect my peace. So I don't wanna get in every fight. I don't wanna argue all the time. I used to do that. I used to spend my whole day going back and forth with people. And then I realized that I was not necessarily being as effective in my own life because my time was spent debating with people who. That's what they do. You know what I mean? That's all they do. I got all these other things. I run businesses. I run an organization. I have all this stuff going on, and I'm sitting up here just in every argument all the time. So I just decided to make my voice mean more by using it at the appropriate time. So I wouldn't say it's conformity, but it certainly is wisdom.

[Jess Hilarious]

Do you remember what point in your life that was when you decided to do. Because you have a lot of battles.

[DJ Envy]

You.

[Jess Hilarious]

What was that point in your life?

[Tameka Mallory]

Well, stop arguing with him all the time. That was one. That's where it first started. I just got. Look, I just stopped because between him and Tesla, he be like, bruh.

[Charlamagne tha God]

But you know that, right?

[DJ Envy]

I mean, Taz argue.

[Tameka Mallory]

We can stay on a text thread for three days fighting about the same thing. So I just learned how to just be like, you know what? I'm gonna be quiet.

[Charlamagne tha God]

He does have to poke the bear. I see him do that all the time over there. He does it all the time.

[Tameka Mallory]

I know exactly what he does. But we do have meaningful conversation. I can say that even. I'm sure we both will agree that even when we don't agree, we still come out wiser. Like, we know a little bit more about the topic and see different perspectives, which is important. But I think that when I really learned how to be more effective in using my voice was during the Women's March, right? Like, you know, that was a real, real hard time. And once I started going through the controversy and all the attacks and people coming at me for anything they could think of, I found myself getting. You know, I was drained, trying to explain, and it's like, why do you just stop? Just stop. In fact, some of the sisters around me called me one day and said, it's not working. Like, what you're doing. You on Twitter, you on Instagram, you trying to explain. It's not working. It's not coming across. And it hurt my feelings. Cause I'm like, but. But y'all know. Y'all know what they're doing to me. But then I kind of opened my eyes to what they were saying, that I was only making the situation worse. It wasn't getting better, so.

[Jess Hilarious]

And you feel like you became stronger in your messaging after you realized that?

[Tameka Mallory]

Yeah, I think. Well, I know I became stronger as a person. Right. That. Which, you know, is what I don't think. My message wasn't strong, but it was overkill. You know what I mean? Because, again, you cannot force people to understand what they're not trying, even if they already know. Many people already know what you're saying, and they have decided that they're just not gonna agree with you. So I think it made me stronger as a person that now when I speak on something, I absolutely feel convicted. And therefore, whatever I gotta do, whatever war I'm in, hey, to hell with it. We in it. Let's do it.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Good. I was gonna ask, why the memoir now? Right? Some people say it's still too early for a memoir. Some people say, you know, a memoir is a period piece of time in your life, so why now?

[Tameka Mallory]

Yeah, you know what? I'm at the. Hopefully, like, a little less than halfway point, right? About 50. You think you kind of at the halfway point of life. I'm 44, obviously. Other people, 27. Thank you very much. I work at this every day. Obviously, people saw that in me, that there was a story. And when I first sat and wrote a outline, an outline of what would be in the book, I didn't believe on page one that there was a story. I was like, this is whatever. But by the time we finished the outline and went over it together, I said, oh, my God, like, this is a real powerful story. And I'm at the point in my life where I can actually walk with this book and tell the story for myself versus being elderly, you know, and kind of unable to even remember some of the things that happened. But obviously, a big part of this book is that I ended up going to rehab for the pill addiction, which we've talked about on this show before. And I think that that marks a really important time that kind of, like, bookends the story, you know, from me. Starting as a little girl. I tell you all about that. Cause who knew, coming from the projects in Harlem, that I was going to end up on stages in front of millions of people, and that folks would be listening to me as a leader. No one ever instilled that. I mean, my parents may have told me that, but the world didn't say, little black girl from the projects can become this. It just, you know, wasn't a thing. Um, so that's a. That's a first part. But then there's, like. There's challenges. There's challenges that come with influence and what some people consider to be celebrity, even though I don't really use that in reference to myself, but some people feel that way. Uh, there's challenges that come with all of that. And ending up in that place, that dark place of being in rehab is something that I knew I had to tell. And I don't want it to be, like, mixed into an early story. I really wanted it to be like, you and me, we on this journey together right now. When I said it here on the Breakfast Club, in the old space, people started reaching out to me that you know. Cause you are in the world, so you understand. But there are a lot of people that you would think, whoa, hey, lot of people did what I did. Cause when I first contacted Jason Williams, the NBA All Star, he is in the healing space after all the things we know he went through. When I first contacted him, I was kind of like, hey, my friend is going through something. What can you tell me? He let me do that for two times. Two, three calls. By the third call, he was like, sis, I already know what it is. It's all good. Like, you need to get shit together, basically. And I started getting those calls, and some people who were real honest, and I said, oh, hold up, this is serious. Because these is not. It wasn't people who look cracked out on the street. This was folk who had big jobs, they sitting in big positions, and they were like, I am so proud of you that you were brave to speak about it. And, you know, I know somebody who might be also dealing. Pill addiction is real. You know what I mean? Pill addiction is real because it's silent. You don't smell it like alcohol. You don't see people looking like they're high, but they're taking pills to numb themselves. All different types of things. And when I started to see how many people have the same experience, I knew it was time for me to release this story.

[DJ Envy]

You know, another part of the book that I love is when you talk about, you know, what happened with the Women's March. And, you know, not just what happened with you. I wonder if people are gonna read that, especially women that were involved and said, man, she wasn't just ringing the alarm for herself. She was ringing the alarm for how they're trying to break us up. Yeah, that was such an amazing movement that I feel like they broke up rather fast. Was that a hard chapter to write?

[Tameka Mallory]

Yeah, well, the Women's March part is really difficult for me even to talk about, just because, first of all, it still exists. And there are people there who were a part of breaking up the Women's March. Right. So I try not to call their names. Cause I'm trying to do better in life. It took me. I was the whole way here. I kept saying, don't be calling people's names. And so, yeah, it's hard to write about that. Our experience. There is something that. Yes, it was amazing. Incredible. I'm glad I did it. Even knowing what I know I would do it again, because we made history that can't be taken away from us or duplicated. And it has not been no respect.

[DJ Envy]

I didn't know it was still around.

[Tameka Mallory]

It is. It does exist. I mean, they actually just had something that was, you know, good. You know, I'm glad that they're continuing our work, because we certainly were the trailblazers. We started it. We. The list that is, you know, that they use the social media, all of that we created that those are people who started following us. And it's not about just replacing individuals. It's also, in my judgment, about the. The people who were there were ordained, if you will, to be there. Right. Like, it was the place that God put us, and it was for a reason. And so there's a history that exists that at times it can be painful to have to relive and then also to kind of see people act like they were the first ones at the gate. You know what I mean? And so. But at the same time, I will say that I know there are some incredible women that are in the Women's March today, Black women who've taken over the space, and they're making sure that the Women's March continues to be welcoming to black women. And so, you know, I'm happy to see that work continue.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I was gonna ask, you know, how do you deal with everything that you're going through, Right?

[Tameka Mallory]

Mm.

[Charlamagne tha God]

We see you on the front lines a lot of times. We see you online, we see you on tv. But you have to be going through a lot because not everybody that's with you is supporting you. Right. There's a lot of people that's going against you, and you have to deal with where you're really trying to do something. Not for financial grain, financial gains. A lot of times it puts you in danger, but you still do it. But there's a lot of people that still attack you. How does that. How do you deal with that?

[Tameka Mallory]

So I don't mind any. You know, I've been in this for 30 years. Envy. @ least, that's how long I've been in this work for 30 years. I started before my son was born, and he's about to be 26, so that's a long time. So I'm used to attacks, right? And I'm definitely used to the attacks that come from what is considered to be the other side. What is often very, very frustrating is people who are supposed to be in the movement together. We all Supposed to be trying to work towards the same goal who you just see and hear with the sly attacks and the sly comments and things that they're doing and saying to try to discredit the work that we put in. That, for me, is probably the most frustrating part. And what's frustrating about it is not even that they do it. What's frustrating is that I have always tried to maintain a posture of not getting into a public battle with people who we all supposed to be walking in the same direction. You know, I always think about. And I try to remind myself, because I was raised in the King tradition, right? In the Dr. King tradition. That's what I learned. I learned about the principles of nonviolence. Carmen, if she was here, Carmen Perez would say, you attack the forces of evil and not people doing evil.

[Jess Hilarious]

Right?

[Tameka Mallory]

And I've had to tell myself that over and over and over again, even when evil means people, even within our movement. And so I was raised. I think about this one particular scene in a movie called King in the Wilderness.

[DJ Envy]

Oh, I love it.

[Tameka Mallory]

I love this. One of my favorite documentaries Films about Dr. King, because he knows that he's about to die. He can feel it. You know, he has great despair. You can see him walking around, and at times, you know that he's like, you know, really going through something that's telling him there's danger looming.

[DJ Envy]

It's the last eight months of his life.

[Tameka Mallory]

Yeah, right. Last eight months of his life. And there's a scene where he is walking next to Stokely Carmichael. Right? So first of all, they're in the same march, and they had tension. Trust me, they had tension. And a lot of times, they kept their tension in the basement of a building and then came out and they was together. You couldn't necessarily tell. This particular day, they're walking into March, and the reporter is asking Dr. King, like, what should. You know, how should we be moving forward? What should people be doing? And Dr. King is like, I believe in the principles of nonviolence, and it is not passive. And he's going on and on about nonviolence. And then they turned around and they asked Stokely Carmichael, what do you think that we should be doing? What's the direction? He said, I think we should burn this whole damn thing down. Right? And so it's two different mindsets. Two totally different mindsets. But they're walking in the same direction, and they're able to be there. And Dr. King didn't get scared and say, let me run away. In fact, he used the Energy of those people who were like, burn it down. Tear it up. And he took that into. Into these government offices and corporations and wherever else he was and said, hey, these folk getting ready to mess your shit up. Like, you know, y'all better figure out what we doing here. And they also held him accountable by saying, these are the things that we need you to get done if you are gonna go in these places and be sort of the voice of the people. So I've always tried to be that. I've always tried to be that. But I can also tell when people are disingenuous, when they. When it's more about them than it is about the actual movement. And that is something that gets me pissed off. And then I'll be ready to, you know, say things.

[DJ Envy]

Don't you think we need an inside, outside game? Because one thing I. From the same documentary, King in the Wilderness, there was a scene where Lyndon B. Johnson calls Martin Luther King Jr. When he's in LA, I believe, for the watch riot, right? And he goes, yo, what is going on? Why are they tearing ship? But Martin knew that call was coming, right?

[Tameka Mallory]

Right.

[DJ Envy]

And so Martin was like, well, now we need our check. Like, you know, yeah, we got the civil rights and the voting rights and all that, but now it's about the money. These people are out here hurting. So don't you think you need an inside outside?

[Tameka Mallory]

Absolutely. I mean, I play it all the time. We play the outside a lot more than we do the inside. So certainly, I think that's important. I think I'm speaking to something different. But the answer. Short answer to your question is, yes, we have to have that.

[DJ Envy]

I think the problem is the inside more than it's the outside nowadays. Cause y'all be outside doing what y'all supposed to do. But then it's hard to get people on the inside that want to work with y'all. Cause they want to, you know.

[Tameka Mallory]

Yeah, I mean, that's. That's true. People get comfortable when they get on the inside, and they are afraid to work with people who are considered to be controversial, you know? And so I would say that that is an issue that we deal with. But not everybody on the inside is like that. You know, I think about somebody like Marc Morial, who is sort of an insider, right? National Urban League. He's. He's in the. In the. In the buildings, in the meetings. But there's not been a time when I've called him to say, mark, here's our position. Here's what I want you to say or here's you know what I need from you that he hasn't shown up to be a partner in that way. And so there's a lot of people like that. And you know, I think we have to give credit to, I think in every aspect of the movement cause there's outsiders that are problematic, right? So there's inside, outside. It's problematic people all over the place which is part of why our struggle seem in the cycles continue to go around in the ways that they do. I think we if we were a little bit more effective in how we coordinate the inside outside and also that we identify the opponent not being us. It's not black institutions, it's not black people, it's not black organizers, it's not black protesters. The problem is that we're fighting against something and we all need to identify what white supremacy looks like, what white nationalism is. We need to identify what ignorance and hate is and really use our energy to talk more about our strategies rather than to talk down on people who have built. Because you know when I think about black institutions and I also think about black Wall street and rosewood and all of these places that we know black people built real economic power. It wasn't that black folks didn't do it. It's not that black institutions weren't a part of it. Because it would not have existed if it had not been for the work of people who have been have toiled and died in order for us literally put.

[Charlamagne tha God]

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[Tameka Mallory]

Lives and bodies on the line, in order for us to be in the positions that we're in, to even be able to sit here in this great big beautiful building today. But there have been, at every point, white folks, government have literally burned down, physically burned down what we built. So I don't think anybody worked hard to say, massa, let me in. I want to be your friend. You know, just accept me. That's not what happened. People worked so that we could actually enjoy our labor. As Angela Rye says all the time, we built this nation for free on our backs. So we're not asking for anything that we don't deserve. We pay taxes. We ought to receive part of our tax dollars to help empower our communities. So when folks are saying to the government, we want positions of power, we want resources for our community, we're not asking somebody for a handout for charity. We're asking for the money that's going out of our paycheck to come back and recyc in our community. You know, so I always. I always am cautious about, yes, there needs to be a critique. We all absolutely need to critique where we are with our institutions, with our organizations, and where we are as a movement. But a critique that is not also coupled with step 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 of the next level of the plan is problematic to me. And be honest with you, I don't trust people who spend a lot of time talking about themselves and then talking down on black institutions. I don't trust them.

[Jess Hilarious]

So I was gonna say, so I know the target conversation comes up when I think about this, right? And you were pushing the boycott target when the DEI stuff happened. And then, like Tabitha Brown, there's people saying, don't boycott Target. Support the black brands so that they don't erase the black brands out of there. I know you get pushback for your take, but I know you also listen to it as well to try and figure out how to move forward. What's the answer to all of that?

[Tameka Mallory]

Right?

[Jess Hilarious]

Because you're strongly on one side. You got other people on the other side. Like, is there ever really an answer to that? Like, what do we really do?

[Tameka Mallory]

Well, first of all, people gonna do whatever they gonna do. So let's just be clear about that. We're never gonna be in a situation where 100% of anybody of any group says we're all gonna do the same thing. And I also wanna say publicly that I love and appreciate Tabitha Brown. Right? This is a sister that I watch all the time, you know, I see people in my comment section like, oh, Tabitha ain't goin. Like, we not doing that right. Like, I' purchased products from her offline. I support her. Love the sister and the other black business owners. Courtney Adiele. Judy. You know, I call it. Was she B.B. judy? I was getting ready to say what B.B. means to me, but we ain't gonna do that kaleidoscope. We're doing that kaleidoscope. That's right. That's my girl, though. Love her. Okay, There you go. Love her, love her. And it's not just her. There's a bunch of.

[Jess Hilarious]

A bunch of things in Target as well.

[Tameka Mallory]

Absolutely. Lit bar, who I just learned of Rucker roots. Yeah. So it's so many people I want to get in trouble for that.

[DJ Envy]

I actually got a few of them coming up here this week.

[Tameka Mallory]

Good, good. So all these businesses are important, and I think that we do need to support them. But I also understand that every time you. First of all, I'll say two things. Your presence is also a part of your boycott. Right. It's also a part of your protest, if you will, that when you walk through the door of a business, a building, anywhere you go, if people see your face, that's. That also is a sign of support. So a part of our withdrawal is that we shouldn't even be showing up in spaces where people are saying they don't want. And I am very careful not to continuously say DEI because that takes away the power of the diversity, equity and inclusion are what we're talking about. And so if somebody says, I've decided that I'm rolling back the diversity, equity and inclusion, what are we talking about? There's no reason for me to even give you my money. I just, you know, I don't see a reason to shop in your stores. And to be a consumer, that helps you to raise your bottom line. And so for me, I drop brands all the time, and that's why I'm easy to do it. Gucci had the face, the black face sweater gone. Nike cut their contract with Kyrie Irvin. And I felt it was very unfair. It was just racist to me and wrong. Out. I'm done. All Nike is gone. Out of my home. And shout out to my son for that, because he started it. And I was kind of like, we gonna throw our Nike away. What you mean? But then when I really thought about it, I was like, you know what? You're actually right. So I understand you know what he meant, and you know why he did that. And why that was his protest. And guess what? Now I'm on actively black. So it was like a mindset shift that I went from wearing all the tech suits, wearing all the Nikes, to now I'm in actively black and other black sportswear, and I started wearing sire collective sneakers. I immediately, I needed something, right? And I immediately thought, let's transform spending money with these people and start spending it with our own. And that's why I've been saying to people that, that, that is for us in a lot of ways, what we know will happen, what will come out of this is that people are frustrated, they're angry, they want to do something, they want to get active. And now they're able to take and shift their power. Now, the first part of it is learning how to hold your money. Because we are big consumers, you know, we love to spend money. So the first part is learning how to hold your money. The next part is when you start thinking, well, where else? How can I be creative in other places that I can go to? Maybe let me look online to see if there's a black company that can ship me paper towels and toilet tissues. That is how you start to transition. The thought. The thought and excuse me, the mindset, if you will. And that's what we're working on. Um, I think that people often forget when folks say, you know, oh, boycotts, boycotts don't work, or why boycott? What people don't understand about us is that we are, and I have to remind folks, we're frontliners. This is what we do. We prepare people for combat. When people come through our doors, they are trained mentally for whatever the next steps are gonna be. And if other people say, well, we need to do more. Cause this is me and Charlamagne arguing about, what about this company and what about Amazon and what about Walmart and what about Meta? Those things are important. And there are people who are doing all of it. Some people don't. They aren't they in my comment section saying they never going back to Walmart. They got rid of everybody on the DEI list. But there are people who need to start somewhere. And there is power in using your force to attack one particular issue at a time. Once you are able, in my judgment, to show Target that we, as black women especially, spend a lot of money with you, I think the numbers are around $29 million. You would lose in one day if all black people didn't shop in Target. Right? If we can show Target that the message resonates with all the Other companies that you're talking about, Everybody gets the message that, wait a minute, the black people are getting upset. We need that $2 trillion of spending that they usually circulate within our companies and our businesses. And now they're starting to think and move differently. Once you start saying, I'm, I'm actually going to join this movement and start to boycott and start to fast from particular businesses, it's easier for you to start thinking, well, what else can we do together?

[Charlamagne tha God]

I guess people will question it. Like, how do you decide which business to start? Right. Yeah, because, you know, you could say Target, but like you said, Walmart, people still get their packages on Amazon. People are still on Facebook all day long. They're still on Instagram all day. So I guess people were saying, like, how do you pick and choose which way to go?

[Tameka Mallory]

So I have a perfect answer for you for that. It comes from the people. It comes from the bottom up. You have to be able to listen to people. So I'll give you an example in my comment section. There are black women in there who are saying, target hit different. It feels different to them, right? They go, people say, what about meta? Well, when I open my phone for meta, I don't see my bank account dwindling. It just doesn't resonate the same way. It's not to say meta is not problematic, but people do not see the bottom line of their bank account impacted by they're getting on social media. There's a black woman in my comments right now saying that when she closed her Target card, she looked at what she spent, and she spent $46,000 over 12 years.

[Jess Hilarious]

Oh, Tarjay will get you.

[Tameka Mallory]

You see what I'm saying? We gave it a nickname. We called it Tarjay. Black women walked in there feeling at home, feeling like, okay, I'm safe in Target. I could spend four hours in here buying stuff I'm not even supposed to have, but I feel comfortable. So with movements I always used. I've been using this example for the last few weeks. I've been involved in all types of police shootings. Some of them are worse than anything that you could name on this show. And we know some really bad situations. And for whatever reason, there are certain issues that touch people. When you see that as an organizer, you don't say, well, what about ism? Because what about ism is the art of confusion. It keeps people in paralysis and they don't want to move at all. You have to say, well, I see people are really concerned about Breonna Taylor, even though Pam Turner was shot to death as a woman, older woman, who was mentally unstable, she was shot to death in Houston, Texas, outside of her building by a cop who knew she had mental illness, and he gunned her down while she was on the ground laying down. That's. But guess what? Did you hear about Pam Turner? Probably.

[Jess Hilarious]

I think I did see a swipe through breaking down her case a bit, but it wasn't.

[Tameka Mallory]

It's not something.

[Jess Hilarious]

It wasn't super loud, exactly.

[Tameka Mallory]

Breonna Taylor, terrible, but Breonna Taylor, it mobilized people. It got people really upset. This young girl in her house, they got really upset about it. So we have continued to lift Pam Turner. In fact, we bring her daughter with us to events, and attorney Crump continues to check on her. And I love her dear young sister. And I'm sure there are times. And I've had other families, not her, not Pam Turner's family, but I've had other families say, why not us? Like, look at me. I also have lost a loved one. It seems like everybody is organizing over here. That happens. We should continue to bring those people. But you cannot stop a grassroots movement from rising from the ground up. You can't do that. So for whatever reason, Target has touched a nerve in people and has made them feel like they're ready to get active on that. And I don't. I don't think that we need to shift the energy. I think we need to use Target as a starting point. As has been said Nina Turner. Let's give her the honorable Nina Turner. Hopefully she'll be up here soon. Her. And of course, Jamal Bryant has the Target fast. Um, these. These two individuals are looking at where we are and how do we start? And now we can take that and say, oh, and just so you know. Cause I just saw Disney World. I think yesterday they announced that they're rolling back their DEI practices. So now what do we do about that? We can continue to move people. And you're also talking about folks who've never, ever boycotted anything. They've been the best consumers. You are now having to retrain people's minds to know that you're not gonna die if you don't go to Target. There's other places that have your makeup wipe removers or your dog food. You know what I'm saying?

[DJ Envy]

So I got a lot of different questions, you know, and I think what you said about the confusion part is very true.

[Tameka Mallory]

Right.

[DJ Envy]

Because even when it comes to things like Nike. Yeah, okay. Kyrie Irving, you know, is no longer with Nike. But then they have people like LeBron James. Of course they have people like Colin Kaepernick.

[Jess Hilarious]

Wilson, too.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, people like A.J.

[Tameka Mallory]

Wilson.

[DJ Envy]

The reason I'm talking about LeBron and Colin in particular is because they do different levels of activism. So people feel like they still want to support that or, you know, even with the Target thing. Yes. If there's a grassroots movement and people are saying, hey, I want to boycott Target, cool. But what about when they look at this whole other list and they do ask? They will continue to ask that question. They'll continue to say, well, you're still using Amazon, you're still going to Walmart. You know, you're still on Meta.

[Tameka Mallory]

Yeah, but I don't think that it is the responsibility. First of all, I'll say this. If you boycott your shoes, your shirt, your pants, your T shirt, your underwear, all at the same time, you walk around naked, people not gonna do that. That's not realistic. And I don't think that we should set unrealistic goals for ourselves and our movement. It's already hard enough to get people just to let the algorithm or for the algorithm to push the message that there is even a Target Fast or a Target boycott. That's, like, not easy to do. You actually gotta hit the streets, knock on doors, and talk to people directly, which we are beginning to do. Nekima Armstrong, who is an organizer in Minnesota. This is the local community where the Target headquarters is located. And the place where my viral speech, which I mentioned Target in the speech where it happened because of George Floyd, like, that's the other thing is the connection between Target and that moment when the city of Minneapolis was. Was burning down. Right. Like, y'all remember that when everything was on fire and Target seemed to remain standing right there, and it was next to an auto zone. The autozone was burned down, the police precinct was burned down, and Target was right there. My. In my spirit, when I said, I don't give a damn if they burn down Target because Target ought to be out here with us fighting for justice. I wasn't saying go burn down Target. I'm just saying don't even bring up buildings burning. When a man was killed, he was murdered on TV in front of a bunch of people who. A part of them was murdered as well in that moment. And Target, the next day released a statement saying they were gonna open the doors and let people come in and out and get whatever they wanted. Folks were in Target getting milk for the eyes of protesters who, you know, police were out There tear gassing people, they were getting alcohol and gauze and everything else that they needed to deal with rubber bullets. And I'm sure they got some TVs and some Pampers and some other things too. I'm not gonna say they didn't. I'm sure they did. But Target heard the message. So the connection is not some pie in the sky thing that we just said. Oh, we just gonna pick on Target? No, the CEO came out and said, this could have been one of my employees. So how when Donald Trump comes with his racist attack on diversity, equity and inclusion, do you just fold like that? And people say, well, no, no, no, they still have the program. Which by the way, they have not said a thing. So I just want to say for people who are listening, who keep calling me, telling me, well, did you talk to this person and that person? Because they still have a program and they still are committed to some of these things. The question that I have for you is when is Target gonna come out and talk about it?

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, I never understood why any of those corporations announced any of this publicly, to be honest with you.

[Tameka Mallory]

Right. You could have changed it and we wouldn't have even known. Right. Like they haven't done it. Well, that's the reason why they publicly said it is cuz they want to be down with the good old boys. They want to be in the oligarchy. Huh.

[Jess Hilarious]

A lot of it is investors too. Like with Disney, what you were talking about, their investors, government contracts are on.

[Tameka Mallory]

Them, asking them, asking them to do it. And so, and you bring up a really powerful point. You bring up a powerful point. Their investors want them to change their programs. They want them to stop the initiative. Dei, Diversity, equity and inclusion. Right. That means people who spend money with them have made a decision. They don't want something. So why is it that black folks don't have the same mindset that we're investors as well? We're investors and in fact, we have the right to be offended. We have the right to be offended. And we have the right to say, you know what, Target don't even worry about John, John, them. We gonna get you first. And you run to these meetings and these golf tournaments and all of that and tell people when they ask you, oh, Billy Bob, how's your numbers? We having some problems. We having problems. Black people ain't feeling us right now. I don't know if I made the right decision. That's the goal. And yes, I know, Charlamagne, you're right. People are going to say, why not this one and that one. You should do that. I don't wear a bunch of stuff. I don't shop in a bunch of places. I've been in Walmart in years. That's, that's, that's what I'm doing. You should do that. Anybody who feels like. And nobody stops anybody from saying, I'm now leading. I think you should lead the Walmart, Amazon and Meta boycott. Since you keep asking you.

[DJ Envy]

I'm not.

[Tameka Mallory]

You should, since you keep asking. Why?

[DJ Envy]

Because I know I'm not getting off Meta.

[Tameka Mallory]

Okay, well, that's fine, but let me ask you. Well, we supposed to be on fan.

[DJ Envy]

Base and I kind of believe it. And see, that's the other thing, right?

[Tameka Mallory]

We supposed to be on fan base.

[DJ Envy]

And I was gonna say that too, like, you know somebody. I'm not gonna say who, but I was arguing with somebody Friday, right? You was on a three way with him, right?

[Tameka Mallory]

Every day. Why we can't say who it is?

[DJ Envy]

Well, it was Roland. It's Roland and me. And Roland was arguing and Roland was saying, well, I gotta be able to get my messaging out. That's why I'm staying on Meta. And I was like, well, we could organize a mass exodus from these.

[Tameka Mallory]

But he is on. But he is. But you can't, you can't. You have to say that. And I'm an investor. You're an investor in fan base. We have to say that Roland has been one of the most consistent voices supporting Isaac and Isaac Hayes and trying to get people to go to fan base. And every time I open the app, there goes Roland. His face is there, so he is doing it. But you know what? It's okay. Guess what? They use us all the time. So why all of a sudden do we have to be the purist that if we gonna boycott one thing, we gotta do everything? You know what? It's a million people on my page on Instagram and people get the message. I have thousands of people that's on there talking. So you know what? I'm gonna use your platform to boycott your homeboy. That's what I'm gonna do for now. You shut me down, then I'll go somewhere else. You use me. All you using me right now.

[DJ Envy]

What if I believe in boycotting? Meaning that you know, you know, we know that there's black businesses there, so focusing our dollars on making those black businesses like. I love what John Hope Bryant presented when he talks about the reframing of diversity, equity and inclusion.

[Tameka Mallory]

I love him.

[DJ Envy]

Business impairment. That's my Guy and not a political agenda, meaning reframing diversity, equity and inclusion as a. As critical for economic competitiveness, innovation and market.

[Tameka Mallory]

Right.

[DJ Envy]

So because if we don't buy those products in those stores and they just sit there on the shelf and they don't sell it, they'll just say, you know what? Get rid of that shit. And they sell it.

[Tameka Mallory]

So. So there at least is two businesses that I've heard of that have sold out their products since this happened because people been buying directly from them online. Right. So that there is a way to continue to support these people. Yesterday, this brother, Carlton Maxwell. Carlton Maxwell, he was at Jamal Bryant's church in Atlanta, Georgia, at New Birth Baptist Church. And he had Carlton Maxwell stand up in the audience and he said, you know, this brother was in 119 stores. No, 1900 stores. 1900 stores. Target. Target, yes. And he did not renew his contract. When the boycott began.

[DJ Envy]

What was he selling?

[Tameka Mallory]

Selling sportswear, black history stuff, shirts, tote bags. He did not renew his contract. And it is because he decided that he wanted to join the boycott efforts. Right. Jamal had him stand up yesterday. He told everybody in the church, and, you know, it's thousands of people at New Birth on Sundays. He told him, go on outside, put your stuff up. Everybody gonna come out there. People bought everything from him. And I think most people, whether they wanted the stuff or not, were motivated to go. And by the way, he has some fly stuff, socks, sweatpants. I need those sweatpants, Carlton. You ain't have my size. But everything he had was purchased. And he said his online sales are up. People are supporting him. So there's more than one way to skin a cat, right? We have to be creative. Because what if they just said tomorrow they don't even want us in the store? Then what?

[DJ Envy]

And they will definitely say that if people are not buying. So, I mean, I get you. I just feel like you gotta have a plan to redirect energy towards supporting companies like Carlo. You do, but also supporting companies who are doubling down on DEI.

[Tameka Mallory]

Well, well, 100%. And that's why this whole thing where people are like, oh, you know, Reverend Sharpton took people to Costco's, and I. Why would you go Costco's? Well, let's. To your point. If somebody says, if you are going to punish one person, then why not reward the other if they sing?

[DJ Envy]

I just didn't like the singing outside of the.

[Tameka Mallory]

That's cool. You know, again, you know, that age of black people, they sing at everything.

[DJ Envy]

And they don't sing everywhere.

[Tameka Mallory]

Right. I mean, it's because. You know why? Because most of those people who were there, they're older, right? Most of them. There was some younger folks, but most of them are older. And that's what they do. That's what motivates them. When we do pro. We. We. We be out there singing some different stuff, right? We evolve, things shift and they change. But what motivates that group of people, which includes my mother, my father, and other people who are a little bit older than us, that's what they like. And I don't see anything wrong with it. The point is, they were making it clear to another company and to other companies that we are smart enough to know that if we want something. And you say that, you're going to fight because by the way, Costco's is in a fight. They not keeping DEI easily. They're, as you said, they're stakeholders, stockholders, they're investors. They're even. I've heard that the elected officials in the city where their headquarters is has been calling them, trying to force them, because the whole thing is they need all these companies to do it at one time so that there's nobody left. And therefore you have no choice because you're not going to boycott every single company. So they're trying to put pressure to make sure that is there's a domino effect. Everybody decides to do it, and then there's. There's nowhere for you to go, Right? But. But Costco said, nah, we gonna stand on business. We believe in this. And now we know. Delta Airlines has said that. What is the difference between Target and Costco? What is the difference? Why. Why is it that Target does not receive respect, the black consumer, especially black women, enough to say this is gonna upset them? Not to mention Target pulled its DEI initiative. It was announced, and they didn't even call the black businesses that you're talking about to let them know that this is gonna happen. I think those black businesses should get together and sue Target me, because you have impacted my bottom line. You have hurt my brand being in your store, right? Hurt my chances of being a successful within Target without even coming to me to say, hey, something is going to be different and you might be impacted by my new decision. They didn't even do that. They didn't even have respect enough to call these folks and say, hey, we got some things going on. We want you to know about it first and give me an option of how I want to move when the announcement is made. They didn't even do that. So why Are we being so nice and kind? And guess what? There are different types of people in this movie. You got people who are going to go in the store and say, I'm just gonna buy this one thing. I'm just going to, you know, get this. But I could tell you right now.

[DJ Envy]

Meaning the black products.

[Tameka Mallory]

The black products, right. But I can tell you right now, you walk through the door and the toilet tissue is going to be on sale for $2. Because Target is these people are master marketers. They are master manipulators. That's what they do. They have people who study our habits so they will know what to do in order to draw you in. So you think you gonna walk in there just to grab one thing, and now Your child, who's 4 years old, is laid out flat on the ground screaming, mommy, please get me so and so. So you're gonna be like, get it. Just get it, and let's go. Right? And eventually you slip back into the same habit. So we're asking people to please ensure that you support every single black business. I'm buying stuff. Play Pits is a new brand I just found out about. That is a deodorant for kids. You know what I'm saying?

[DJ Envy]

I just found out about them. I mean, that's actually the good thing about this moment.

[Tameka Mallory]

Right.

[DJ Envy]

Cause I didn't know all of those products existed.

[Tameka Mallory]

Exactly.

[DJ Envy]

To be honest.

[Jess Hilarious]

I just wish it felt as loud as it did during the pandemic when it was the push of black businesses or whatever. I felt like it was so loud and everybody was passing around these lists or whatever. I don't think that it's like that anymore.

[DJ Envy]

But them corporations ain't do right. You know what?

[Tameka Mallory]

I want you to speak to me because.

[DJ Envy]

And I love that you. We were talking about the book. I Live to tell the story. But you told me something the other day that I was like. Yeah, that's. I really forgot about that. The work that somebody like Reverend Jesse Jackson was doing.

[Tameka Mallory]

Right, right.

[DJ Envy]

How he did it.

[Tameka Mallory]

Right. Yeah. Right. So go ahead. You asked the question.

[DJ Envy]

Well, I was gonna say, like. Like, you know, when we talk about these corporations who pledged all of this money right after George Floyd.

[Tameka Mallory]

Right.

[DJ Envy]

They didn't deliver.

[Tameka Mallory]

They did not.

[DJ Envy]

But back in the day when Jesse Jackson was, you know, pushing these people for diversity and everything, he was on the ass.

[Tameka Mallory]

It was a big difference.

[Jess Hilarious]

Yes.

[Tameka Mallory]

And not all the companies did it then. But then. But there are certain companies that is certain. There are certain brands, and I'm not going to name them Today because we ain't giving them free promotion. But there are certain. Because I don't know where they stand now. But there are certain brands that we as black people are attracted to for a reason. And it's because, you know, it's historic. Like we learned that such and such was our friend, kinda whatever that means back then. And that behavior has translated down through generations. And it's just like you go into. So you don't even know why you are more interested in this than that. And it has a lot to do with how your parents knew that this company was safer for us, or at least they were hiring more people and they had more opportunities for us. And that's something that I have to give a lot of credit to Reverend Jackson and those people who sort of followed in Dr. King's footsteps because you look at Operation Breadbasket, which was an initiative that literally dealt with the economics within our community and they had principles for how you decided whether you were going to work with or support a corporation or not. And I will say, when you talk about companies who made commitments, one of the commitments that Target made was to spend $200 million with black businesses. Two billion or 200 million? Yeah. Check it, because I might be wrong. I was getting ready to say 200 billion billion, but I know I'm wrong about that. It might be 2 billion, or is it 200?

[DJ Envy]

In 2020, they pledged 2 billion to black owned businesses.

[Tameka Mallory]

Okay, so I'm sorry. Right, cool. So right. So I'm wrong. So that was by 2025. We wanna know what happened. Did you do it? Before you talk about rolling back dei, don't you think they should put out a report that says we spent all this money? And by the way, 2025 doesn't end for another 11 months. So did you end your DEI practices before you got to the full 2 billion? Thank you for correcting me. Did you know what happened? Now to your point about Reverend Jackson? This is another reason why I get frustrated when I hear people say we don't need dei. DEI never done nothing for me. It's not important. And Roland Martin gave me some examples the other day of how DEI is just the child of things that have happened before it. Right. So they may not have been calling it DEI in the 70s and 80s, right? We were looking for black economic power. We were looking to. Again, if you have a business in our biz, in our, in our community, you not going to just set up shop and not give our people jobs, not put us on in positions of power. Within the company, that's just not going to happen. And they were right to say that because you right here and people are running in your store buying things from you. We deserve a piece of the pie. It's not. We are asking for charity. We're saying that's how you do business when you enter somebody's community. Right. You can't move in my house as a man. And me and you living here and you say, I'm gonna eat your food, I'm gonna drink everything. I'm gonna take all the resources from here and I ain't gonna help you pay the rent. That's ridiculous. Right? So when I think about Reverend Jackson, remember I was a little girl and it is in. I live to tell the story to some degree, being in the movement. And I watched them protest companies because you would find out that a company again is in the community and they don't even have one black board member or women. Now, has it been infiltrated by other people? Absolutely. But there certainly was a time when it was all male, all white, and the white women actually were working as administrators in the company. You were able to. White women was able to answer the telephone and that's about it and be the secretary. Reverend Jackson and all those working with him went in there and said, hell to the no. You can't operate in our business if we don't have a piece of the pie. And when we talk about dei, a lot of people are thinking about jobs and thinking about maybe some of the vendors and things like that. But what about suppliers? You have people who had advertising companies who had contracts with these agency with these businesses. You have people who had the security firm. You see the people at the front door. You don't know who's actually running that firm. It could be a black man or a black woman behind that. You have drivers, the truck drivers that are out there bringing the products across country. A lot of times those are people who come from the DEI aspect of the company. Right. These are suppliers that were also a part of the work that Reverend Jackson and them did. And to speak to the point about boycotts and protests and why they go hand in hand is that he would not have been able to do that if Ms. Susie and them didn't go stand outside and form a picket line to create actual visuals of what was going on in the meetings. And Ms. Susie didn't have millions of dollars. So we, you know, there's no X expectation that the person who has decided that my little $10, I'm gonna keep it in my pocket. But she was out there braving the cold, standing outside in front. And those are your combat frontliners. We have to remember that in the, in, in, in war, everybody doesn't do the same thing. You got people who are on the front line, you got people who are driving the vehicles, you got snipers. You have all different types of people who are doing work that makes up the whole and gets us to an end result. So let's not fight the protesters and the boycotters. Let them do their job and use it as fuel. If I'm Tabitha Brown, if I'm, you know, Courtney Adiele, if I'm, what's our sister's name from I best wines. Lord have mercy. Ingrid, I love you. You know that. I'm sorry. Too much in my head. Yes, but, but if I'm Sorok back in the day, right? Absolutely. If I'm these folks, I'm getting together and I'm not saying don't boycott. I'm saying, okay, I don't really want you to because my product is in there. But guess what? If you gonna do it, I'm gonna go inside and fight. Not, not, not go. And I'm not, I am not saying that they're not fighting. So let's get. Cause you know they'll say, oh, Tameka, Mallory said y'all punks and y'all ain't fight. No, I'm not saying they're not. I'm sure there are things happening that.

[Charlamagne tha God]

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[Tameka Mallory]

Not gonna see and hear. But if I. If I was them, I would be saying, I'm gonna use the energy from the street to take in here and say, you guys have hurt our businesses because of what you have done to our community. You have to work in tandem, inside, outside strategy. And guess what? Fight. Fight. This is a time that we are in where we just at the beginning, we've got four years at least, maybe even more, are going to continue to hit us with these particular plays because they are attempting to return this nation to an all white, all male, for the most part, leadership. And these are not white people that just gonna do what you say because we asked them to. We gonna have to make a demand. And so it's good for us to start flexing our muscles and learn what it feels like to get in a fighting position. Now to Angela Rise Point, who I was listening to the other day, in a minute, if we don't show our power in this particular moment, we gonna look around and ain't gonna have no money to buy a Target anyway. So we all gonna be boycotting.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Let me ask you a question, though. I was gonna ask one question about the boycott thing. Okay, I'll let you finish first.

[DJ Envy]

No, because I was gonna say about. I guess that's the other thing too. Is it easier or harder to protest with social media? Because things can be so fragmented, Right?

[Tameka Mallory]

Yeah.

[DJ Envy]

Friday, I didn't know Jamal Bryan was doing a protest. I just found out about this on Friday, Right. And then I didn't know Nina had announced one. Right. And I know you. I know y'all were talking about it, but I didn't know they actually announced it. Right. And then when I started to look into it, because I was like, well, what are the demands? Because I still haven't heard what the demands are. And then somebody was like, well, go look on Jamal Bryan's website. But when I go look on Jamal's website, it said the protests don't start till March 5th.

[Tameka Mallory]

Well, so.

[DJ Envy]

So who's doing it? Has Nina started?

[Tameka Mallory]

No. So then. So. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you for asking that, because that's important. And I've heard a few people say they're confused and we're not perfect as a movement. And so there needs to be people who call in and say, hey, we don't understand. So first of all, I mentioned Nekima Armstrong, which is a woman who is there in Minnesota, where the Target headquarters is. They started for Black History Month, right? They already started. The folks and they're not just on social media. They are on the ground. They have held demonstrations. They've been outside. In fact, there is a Latino group that was also protesting. They had a big protest outside of a Target in one of their communities. Not connected to Nekima, I don't believe. But I'm just saying they started right away. So Black History Month, they were saying, don't shop in Target. Nina Turner, this is all great minds coming together, right? And now we all are part of something called the mothership. So we're all talking to one another. But in the beginning, we were not. Nina Turner had also been working through we are somebody on a similar idea that beginning Black History Month and it didn't have an end date, but beginning in Black History Month, that there would be a boycott of Target and a boycott of all of the other brands. And so they created the list and of that information out there. So now I. Nina called me and said, hey, would you like to be involved in this? Where do you stand with it? I said, I definitely want to join you. And then I connected Nina and Nakima. So now they've been talking about how we come together. Then the brothers said, hey, Jamal Bryant being one of them, we getting ready to go into a season of Lent, right? So people, during Lent, they fast. And he said, let's bring the community, the clergy community, our ministries, and our church community into this thing by asking people starting the beginning of Lent to fast from Target, right? And so it's all a continuation. And how that gets properly articulated is something that we are gonna have to work on. But, hey, I'm up here today. And so then I included Jamal into the text chain. And so now all of us are talking, and Roland has been given his advice, and Elder have been calling, and Michael Eric Dyson is saying, hey, let me, you know, ask you some questions. Have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? And so, you know, so it is. It is not perfect. No, it's not. Because it happened in one particular moment. People moved again. We moved based upon what you saw. I could go up there right now on my page and say, we gonna do X, we gonna boycott this cup. Company. People don't always move. Y'all know that. I be telling you, I'm frustrated people are not seeing the importance of this moment. But if I say these flowers and everybody's on it, okay, now we got action, we got motion. And I'm gonna use this moment with these flowers to talk about that cup. That's just. That's just organizing 101, you know, so that's where, that's where we are. It's just a continuation they're doing because they already will have their people in a season of fasting thinking about what they can pull their resources from or put their resources towards. And what he did at church on Sunday, by one, having people buy out all my books, thank you, New birth for doing that, for showing up lines of people purchasing black folks products right in the lobby of the church. We gotta go back to that. And that's why another thing I have to say, go back to another point. That's why I'm also protective. And I get upset about the dismissal of black institutions because black institutions have built housing. We got people, thousands, millions of people around this country living in housing that was built by churches, by organizations that, you know, they put their little resources together and put up a building and next thing you know, it turned into a senior center and senior living and a place for low income housing. Black institutions hire millions of people. You have millions of people who are working in either churches or the Urban League or the NAACP or these different organizations. We have had a tradition of folks who have worked really hard to get us to where we are today, which there's challenges, there's problems, and it is time for evolution. For sure, we've got to go to the next phase. We have to look at what black organizations can be in the future with all that we now have at our fingertips. But I don't think that we can dismiss the work that was done previously because if it were not for their sacrifices, we would not be in the positions that we're in today.

[DJ Envy]

I agree with you. I don't know if this is as much of a dismissal as it is to your point. What happened to y'all? Y'all were doing all of this in the community. Where is that at now?

[Tameka Mallory]

Right. Well, I mean, again, people ask me all the time and I see it in my son's comments the most. I be wanting to cuss people out in there, but I, I decide it's too toxic over there. So I just let him deal with that. His comment section is mad toxic, y'all know, you know, but anyway, people say to us all the time, why y'all don't do nothing about black violence? What about. And meanwhile we all outside, like that's what he does every day. Maybe you don't necessarily see it and maybe those questions need to be asked, but I'm out there and I see that.

[DJ Envy]

What do you think of doing right?

[Tameka Mallory]

What does she do what does Erica.

[DJ Envy]

She's the main one.

[Tameka Mallory]

Front line. Exactly. Erica. And not. And by the way, y'all people have the right to get older and to evolve themselves. So rather than Erica being on the front line where she used to be out there burning herself out to the point where she got sick, she now is empowering a whole group of younger people who will do it their own way. It doesn't mean that we can just dismiss what she did. No, she's still important because she has wisdom to bring to the table for how you go forward. She is able to see what. What you may not know because, you know, when younger folks start getting in stuff, we bring, or they bring, because I ain't that young anymore, but they bring a certain level of courage and fire that we need new energy, but sometimes they can't see the pitfall that's coming. And so you need an elder. I would never say that. My grandmother's her remedy for healing me when I have a cold or when I'm, you know, having a baby or whatever things you may encounter that those things are no longer, and that that's all they know. No, actually, they know something powerful. Because if it healed you when you was 12, it might be able to heal you now. Is there CMOs today? Absolutely. That's a new thing. My grandmother ain't know nothing. She died. She know nothing about CMOs. But it doesn't mean that her old Buckley's routine that she used to put together or the castor oil, that. That doesn't matter. And it doesn't help us to make the grandparents and the institutions of before to feel like they are passing. No, they need to be at the table, and they need to know that when they come to the table, there's a new generation of people who have ideas that we're able to even bring you along to the next.

[DJ Envy]

Old men for counsel, young men for war.

[Tameka Mallory]

That's right.

[DJ Envy]

Women too.

[Charlamagne tha God]

19. Keys was here Friday and said something, I think, that you didn't like that sparked the nerve with you. Right? Because you left a comment on the Breakfast Club page, and so did my son. What sparked the nerve? A and B, you talked about Stokely and King and how two different people look at things two different ways. And they said that, you know, when they had their differences, they were able to speak behind the scenes and then come out in public and still fight for the same fight. So, one, what sparked the nerve? And two, how come y'all haven't behind the scenes and had that conversation where it doesn't look like you guys are going at each other.

[Tameka Mallory]

So to be clear, number one, I have talked to 19 Keys, and that's my brother, and he and I do disagree on different things, but I was mad at him. My comment in the.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Charlamagne.

[Tameka Mallory]

Yes, at Charlamagne. My comment in the. On your page, on the Breakfast Club page wasn't so much about 19 keys, although I still think it's important for us to listen up the work of our institutions because we know what they have done and how important they have been. And again, the reason why we had black Wall Streets and the Rosewoods and other places that were burned down by the government and white vigilantes is because black institutions exist and existed at that time. And people that came out of those traditions work to create, sustain those in these types of economic chambers, if you will, like a black Wall Street. So that's important. I'm a defender of black institutions because I come out of one and I know the power of what they've been able to do. I know that when people's lights are turned off, sometimes the only place you could go to is to a black church or to the National Action Network. Those are real things happening every day. We got theories and ideas and things that probably will and can work if we all work together. But we also have people who need food right now. They need to be able to go somewhere and say, hey, the landlord's trying to kick me out. Will you come and show up over here and fight this white man or this whoever man that's trying to put me out of those black institutions, do that work every single day. So I'm always very protective about that. But the person that I'm really talking about when I say I was pissed off is this one right here. And the reason why is because Charlamagne asked several questions which I think is, what about ism? What about Amazon? What about this place? What about that place? After I had already told him in the text message three days before that, why? I don't believe that there. It's a good strategy to try to boycott everything at once. And he didn't say what I said as a response. So what he did was basically leave people with an open freaking answer, open question to something that I already told you, even if you don't agree, I'm not saying you gotta agree, but you can at least say, but you know what? I did speak to Tameka Mallory and she said X, Y, Z thing. And he is now saying he didn't know about Nina and them. I did not know that. So maybe I'm not as upset with you as I was about that. But I feel like it's too serious of a time for us to have conversations that just leave people confused when there are answers. So to me, it would have been better to have Nina or Jamal didn't know Cool or me call in on the phone and talk about the boycott and get those points straight and have the discussion rather than have people walk away like, yeah, man, come on, they playing themselves. They not trying to get off meta. They not trying to do. When we actually have an answer for why Target is the first place that we're deciding to target. Pun intended.

[DJ Envy]

Yeah, I guess I wasn't trying to make it specific about any one person. Cause there was so many people talking about boycotting.

[Tameka Mallory]

Yeah, well, that's your answer. You just said it. The reason why Target is the target is because so many people are ready to boycott Target. That's the answer. That's why.

[DJ Envy]

No, we've had a conversation. We've had this conversation. I get it.

[Jess Hilarious]

I'm not completely separate. I guess it's not separate from all of this because I'm sitting here listening to you talk. And then I know in the book you talk about a lot of personal stuff. And I'm like, when do you take time to deal with your own personal stuff?

[Tameka Mallory]

Cause you, I mean, I do, I do now a little bit better. I know he's right though. Cause I'm kind of going. Cause what I do, when I get to the point that it all fills up in me and I'm as big as a balloon, then I start crying on his phone and I mean real tears. He has had to be like, okay, we gonna get through this? Because I'm like, I'm so frustrated. I got so much going on, but I'm getting better at that. And rehab taught me. Like when I was in rehab, there was no cell phone, the TV had some weird ass stations. I was in like the backwoods somewhere in Ohio. It just wasn't. It wasn't good. And there I learned the art of taking care of me. And in the book, I have this quote in there that I want to share with somebody who is listening. It says that I will. I was born fighting for freedom and I will die fighting for freedom. But this time freedom includes me, me. And that's where I'm at. I'm all about, what about me now, just so you know, Lauren, when we go to these cities and we're like in Kentucky and other Places. Oh, honey. We get a twerk on. We get a twerk on. We find out where the little after hours spot is.

[DJ Envy]

We go out.

[Tameka Mallory]

They do people, oh, I'm down there.

[DJ Envy]

But then people jump. What you doing on vacation?

[Tameka Mallory]

What you doing in the strip club? What you in the strip club? Cause I like to go out. I like good wings.

[Jess Hilarious]

Oh, oh. So you be in the strip club for a while. Absolutely.

[Tameka Mallory]

I mean, I'm not. It's not like I do it all.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Lauren's like, I'm in now.

[Jess Hilarious]

No, no, no.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Where's the next boycott? Look at her.

[Tameka Mallory]

Hey, that's your point of entry that you might be able to get to go out. We have a good time. She's smiling.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Look at her now.

[Jess Hilarious]

Oh, I didn't ask you that. To find out.

[Charlamagne tha God]

And there's men out there. You can find a man.

[Jess Hilarious]

First of all. No, I really asked you that because you deal with some heavy stuff in the book. Like, I know for the first time you talked about the trauma you went through with sexual abuse as a child for the first time ever. And I'm like, I wonder what made her decide to put that out there? Because she got all these people coming at her about everything else. You've been connected. Like, it's just the woman's march stuff. And, like, there's been a lot. And then you put that out there. And I'm sure you had to deal with that again when putting it in the book.

[Tameka Mallory]

Well, here's the answer. I live to tell the story.

[DJ Envy]

That's right.

[Tameka Mallory]

I went through all of that, and I'm still here, you know? And I'm sure some of it was meant to take me out, but look at me. And so, yeah, taking care of myself looked like writing it down, and I didn't. My parents are reading my book right now. Well, they're finished now. I gave it to them two weeks early when I first received the book. And it was hard to put that book in their hands. I had already told them mom and dad and my sister who thinks she's my mother, and she kind of is. The three of them. I got them on a phone call because I wrote a particular chapter. And when I finished, I cried so hard. Not because of what was in the chapter. It was some shame, but it was also because I was like, I cannot turn this in. I cannot let my parents have to relive this. And it was about a time when I almost was raped by several guys because I went somewhere I wasn't supposed to be. And I walked Past my father in the house after the experience and didn't say anything to him. And I was so just broken from what I had experienced. In fact, the mother of one of the boy who lived in the apartment, she happened to come home and literally saved my life. Like they were seconds away from saying, that's it, it's four dudes. That's it, you gotta take your clothes off. Why did you even come here? They were starting to tug on me. It was a whole thing. And the mother walked in and looked and said, who the hell is this little girl in my house? Get the hell outta here. And she was looking at me instead of them while speaking. Cause she was like, you in trouble. And I'm damn like, get yourself together. She told me, I'mma close this door. Get yourself together and you can get out of here. And that's how I got out of that apartment, with a pit bull sitting in front of the door. So there was nowhere that I could go even if I wanted to. And knowing that I tell that story, which is hard enough, I think, for my father to deal with, but for me to say that I left that apartment and went straight home and that he was sitting in the house and I didn't even tell him what happened. I broke. I was like, oh my God, I cannot put this in this book. But then. So when I put the book in their hands, I was like, oh my God, just don't read it. Just put it up as art. Like, don't read it. And sure enough, I came home one day and my sister was like, I need to talk to you. This book is a lot. She was like, I'm going through something. Our parents are suffering with what's in here that my father said to her. And he hasn't said anything to me to this day. To this day. My mother done told me off about two things. Cause that's what she do. That's my girl. My sister was like, I don't know if you should have told these stories, but my father has not said one word. I mean, he speaks to me every day. That's my dad. That's my guy. He's my publicist. He went and picked up the banners for the tour. Like, that's my guy. But he hasn't said anything about how he feels. However, he told my sister that it was real hard for him to get through reading, that some of this was happening and he couldn't do anything about it. So this book is tough.

[Charlamagne tha God]

I will say this though, just on a side note, especially with Your father. And tell your sister just be careful. Because as dads. And I think Charlamagne would know. I don't know if Charlamagne. Cause he's into therapy as a dad. And knowing my dad, revenge is what we would want, right? So your dad might be looking for the young boy's names and numbers right now to pull up on him. Because it feels like there's no way you're gonna do that to my girl, right?

[Tameka Mallory]

Well, my dad is 78 years old, so he needs to sit down and not be looking at him. My dad's 80. My dad needs to sit down and live the beautiful life that him and my mother worked so hard to make for themselves and for us. And know that he did a damn good job. Because look at me, right? Like he did a damn good job. And whoever tried to hurt me or whatever happened, it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, I made decisions for myself that I know if he was there or if he knew that I was. And matter of fact, they tried. They tried to prevent me from making those decisions. So we want my dad to sit down. But that's the reason why I didn't tell him at the time. Cause he was popping then, okay? And he would have been outside. It's a lot of things that mothers, black mothers, keep from the father in the household to keep him from going to prison. Defending daughters, sons, but especially the daughter. That's a real thing. And there's a lot of stuff I know, my aunts, if they listen and they know about it because I as a little girl used to hear them saying, don't mention this or don't say that. Now there's a double edged sword to it. Because this is why people in families, especially uncles and grandfathers and others, get away with abusing young people. Because the women are holding secrets, trying not to create confusion between the men. And so I don't suggest it, but I would. I'm just saying the reality is a lot of things that have happened in your families, people don't. The men don't know about. Because we are trying to make sure that they don't end up in prison or dead trying to defend their.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Well, pick up the book.

[DJ Envy]

I live to tell the story. Where we at tonight? Where we at tonight?

[Tameka Mallory]

So tonight we are going. First of all, are we telling people that? Cause if they show up, they can't.

[DJ Envy]

Get in the money.

[Tameka Mallory]

It's a private event, but Charlamagne is having a party for me and shout out to my homegirl Nakia McLain from Tenaya Nicole as well as Luchon Thompson. These women have worked together with this brother to put together a private release party for me. But on Thursday they can join me at the New York Public library on the 13th. Thursday I'll be there in conversation with our public advocate, Jumani Williams. I need to have him up here again soon because he's got a lot to say, especially about the mayor. But that's another thing.

[DJ Envy]

What time is that?

[Tameka Mallory]

And that's at 6 o'clock on Thursday the 13th. And also the moderator of that conversation is going to be the executive director of editorial at EBONY magazine. So it's actually going to be really dope. Lot of people have signed up. It's at the New York public library on 5th Avenue. And if you go to Tamikad mallory.com tour tamekad mallory.com tour you can see where I am all over the country. We're in D.C. next, politics and pros 18th, politics and pros the 19th. We're in Tulsa, Oklahoma at All Saints Church. We got another event happening there. Shout out to Kim, Roxy and my girl Tiffany Crutcher, who are working on stuff there. I'm in New Orleans at Baldwin & Co. On the 20th, the 20th, and then the next week I'm back in D.C. i'm also in Miami, but it's all on my website. I'm in Jacksonville on the 22nd. I'm back in Atlanta on the 23rd at the gathering spot. A lot of stuff my people have shown up for me.

[DJ Envy]

She's book trapping. She outside of that tour. Because you didn't get to do that for State of Emergency. I didn't because it was Covid and State of Emergency. You was busy working.

[Tameka Mallory]

But yeah, I was. I was. But also the balance there is that in 2020, 2021, everybody was at home. So you had everybody from Alicia Keys to Tiffany Haddish to Taraji and Jada Pinkett and Pinkett Smith and others who participated in some way in the tour because all they had to do was go turn their computers on. And so it's like a little different that now I'm calling them and they like, oh my God, I'm in Asia. Like what you need me to do? But I will say that all of those sisters that I just named, with the exception of Tiffany, who I'm going to call, have agreed to do some type of virtual event for me which will be closed spaces for young girls, young men. And so, you know, we still are gonna make it happen. And make sure that they participate in what we got going on with. I live to tell the story out.

[DJ Envy]

Right now in bookstores everywhere. Go get you a copy.

[Charlamagne tha God]

That's right.

[DJ Envy]

Damn. I'm about to say.

[Tameka Mallory]

What?

[DJ Envy]

No, I'm about to say go on Amazon. But you.

[Tameka Mallory]

Oh, my goodness. It's Tamika Batley, ladies and gentlemen, we have Amazon.

[Charlamagne tha God]

Is it in Target? No, I'm just joking.

[Tameka Mallory]

Last time my book was in Target, after I said what I said, they bought 9,000 books. So that's good. So. But not this time. That's cool. No problem. Barnes and Nobles.

[DJ Envy]

Yes.

[Tameka Mallory]

First of all, I suggest people go to Barnes and Nobles. I'm not telling people Barnes and Nobles and black book stores go to black bookstores. Please. Uncle Bobby's has been really working with me. Mahogany Books. I got too many people to name too many people.

[Charlamagne tha God]

All right. Well, it's the Breakfast Club. It's tame.

[DJ Envy]

Wake that ass up early in the morning. The Breakfast Club.

[Tameka Mallory]

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