Chloe Cole (9:06)

I mean, it really affirms, like, not only my own experiences with going through the entirety of transition, especially the surgery, but also that of all of my other detransition friends who've also had these surgeries and these other individuals who've reached out to me and have gone through them. It's almost kind of vindicating that there are studies now that are showing the harms of what these surgeries do, only physically, but also psychologically. And it really takes down this narrative that these surgeries are beneficial to the patient, that they create better outcomes for mental health and overall quality of life.

Brett Cooper (9:43)

And I wanted Chloe to come on, and I wanted you guys to hear her story and continue hearing her story, because it tells you why these studies, by all of these reports, are so vital. Because parents are literally told that their gender dysphoric children will die if their parents do not help them transition. Many parents are threatened into agreeing to these experimental procedures purely based on fear and lies from psychiatrists, from doctors, and most importantly, from the media. This is what happened to Chloe Cole and her parents, and it is what famously happened to Elon Musk. This is why he cares so deeply about this issue. Just take a listen. I was essentially tricked into signing documents for one of my older boys, Xavier. This was before I had really any understanding of what was going on. And we had Covid going on. And so there was a lot of confusion. And, you know, I was told, oh, you know, Xavier might commit suicide if he. That was a.

Chloe Cole (10:38)

That was a lie right from the outset.

Brett Cooper (10:40)

Incredibly evil. And I agree with you that people that have been promoting this should go to prison. It was a complete lie. They literally said, you must agree to this because your son will commit suicide if you don't. I mean, imagine putting that in front of a parent. Obviously, parents are gonna go along with it. They're not gonna think that it's a lie, because why would doctors tell them a lie? Why would they use fear to push an experimental procedure on this innocent child? So I want you guys to know that, because when you hear the media freaking out that Trump is killing trans children, that he's doing all of this legislation that will kill trans people, that gender affirming care is actually keeping trans people alive. I want you all to know that all of that is based on a lie. That is what these reports are telling us. So when you see headlines like this from the aclu, doctors agree gender affirming care is life saving care. This is from USA Today. Gender affirming care is life saving Research says. Why is it so controversial? Well, it's controversial because the science isn't really on your side. You might have a couple of doctors that are on board, but it is objectively, scientifically controversial. Like the jury has been out. We are now getting to an objective solution. I have my opinions on it, but there is now becoming more of a consensus. It objectively has been controversial because you guys have been telling lies. So gender affirming care saves lives is really an emotional fallacy that makes us easy, that makes parents and children easy to control and manipulate without having all of the facts. And so again, I have empathy for these parents. It makes sense that so many parents would hear this from doctors, from the media, from specialists, and be terrified for their kids and go, oh my gosh, I will do anything that it takes to keep my child from dying. I mean, who wouldn't do anything to protect their child? 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Now, even though all of these studies that I've referenced at the beginning of this episode are incredibly important, especially that recent one from the Oxford Journal, just because of how huge the sample size is and it should be eye opening for people around the world, they are still in my opinion, missing a huge piece of the puzzle. Because at the end of the day, if you read these reports, if you read these surveys and then you get to their conclusion, their conclusions are still flawed. Like the way that they interpret this issue, the way that they interpret the data and propose a solution is still dictated by their emotional ideology and this idea that we have to affirm. We have to affirm. For example, in that 2024 curious study that was done in the States with a very small sample size, their conclusion found that patients who have undergone gender affirming surgery are associated with significantly elevated risk of suicide, highlighting the necessity for comprehensive post procedure psychiatric support. Here we go. Another one in the Oxford Journal, this most recent one, they concluded that gender affirming surgery, while beneficial in affirming gender identity, they're still propelling this lie that it's very good, we're affirming, that's very good, we're affirming is associated with increased risk of mental health issues, underscoring the need for ongoing gender sensitive mental health support for transgender individuals post surgery. This is where the science and the protocol is still inherently flawed. I mean, we have all of these studies saying the same thing, that these risks are increased, that the surgeries do not actually do anything but make the situations worse. And their response is not to address these experimental, irreversible procedures that are obviously not working, but to say that they need more support after going through these surgeries that just clearly do not work, which in a way is still true. And we're going to get to that. But that is not the real pressing issue at hand, as Chloe said.

Chloe Cole (16:00)

I guess the culture in around the these studies and the research around this was more focused on prevention of cases like mine, prevention of regret, and mitigating the risk of detransition as much as possible.

Brett Cooper (16:17)

But this, of course, also doesn't have to be exclusive, because in her mind, in Chloe's mind, there should be a more holistic approach from when the patient comes in with gender dysphoria, with confusion over their bodies and their gender, and even after medical treatments, if they end up going through with it like she did at 15 years old. Because in her experience after her surgery, when she started experiencing regrets and confusion about what she had just done to her body, she received nothing. There was no support.

Chloe Cole (16:43)

These researchers, these doctors, these providers don't really ask questions that are geared towards people like me or outcomes like mine of regret, of detransition, of coming, of choosing to go out the other way, and of this not being, of this potentially not being the right path, I certainly was not asked that by my own healthcare providers. I. I was never followed up with about how I was doing emotionally, really. And when I would talk about my regrets and my negative feelings around the procedures that I'd undergone, especially the surgery, it was kind of treated like it was just a normal outcome or that it just wasn't significant.

Brett Cooper (17:22)

So what I'm trying to communicate here, and what Chloe is saying is that these studies are correct in a way, that post surgery care is necessary. And it's appalling that these young people especially are just thrown out into the world with no support when they're dealing with regrets and confusion. But that care, that real care, needs to exist from the get go, and it needs to be care that is not wholly focused on affirmation, that doesn't just shove them in line for surgery, that, again, we now know does not work.

Chloe Cole (17:48)

Transgenderism is not an innate characteristic that somebody has, but the further that you look into a patient's personal history, any trauma that they might have, especially stemming from their childhood, any attachment issues, any familial issues, this is something that is completely psychological in nature. And this distress around one's body, around one's sex characteristics, is not just something that occurs in a vacuum. Vacuum. We need to be giving these people real support with their mental health, not telling them that they are something that they aren't, but also leading them down this path that is going to lead to them being sterilized, losing parts of their health and happiness and their ability to fully live their lives. And we need to be following a more holistic approach that will. That's focused on the overall picture of their lives and their. Their overall health and towards their longevity and their. Their future.

Brett Cooper (18:53)

When you hear people like Chloe speak, when you look at these reports, like, how. How is this entire issue controversial? It makes no sense. I mean, this used to be a psychiatric issue that would be addressed as a psychiatric issue. Now there is just no nuance or even thought of prevention. It is just affirmation of an issue that is usually far deeper.

Chloe Cole (19:14)

I mean, I think that for both sexes, it's a matter of psychiatric illness and distress. But for a lot of the women, it's. I'd say that for. For a good portion of them, it comes from a place of normal pubertal or adolescent or early adulthood distress that just comes with growing up from a girl into a woman. When you look at the personal histories of the men, especially, they tend to have high rates of having been abused in the past, of having familial difficulties. What we actually need to do for these patients is first of all, to not affirm these issues that they're having with their identity and not lying to their faces about who they are, not letting them believe that the issue is their body rather than the issues that they have in their life that are making them feel so negatively about their. Their sex around these parts of their bodies.

Brett Cooper (20:10)

But of course, are those ever addressed, Are they talked about in the scope of transgenderism, especially with young people transitioning, especially with young women going through puberty? No, of course not. We're all just supposed to sit back and affirm because that is the virtuous, that is the morally correct thing to do. And if we don't, we are killing these people. It is insane. Now, the thing is, guys, as I said at the beginning of this episode, in other countries, this is not such a crazy idea anymore. Having nuance, focusing on prevention. They have caught up to the science. They're listening to the science. They are seeing the facts, and they have realized how insane this ideology has become. I mean, the United Kingdom and France both put restrictions on transitioning children back in 2022. The UK has now updated their restrictions as of 2024. I would not be surprised if they updated them again after this Oxford journal study between 2020 and 2023, Finland, Norway and Sweden all also put restrictions on transitioning children, which is hysterical in my opinion, because those three countries, all of these countries are countries that the left often louds and celebrates for their social welfare systems and their free health care and their inclusivity and their safety and their acceptance. And these are the exact countries that are saying, okay, yeah, guys, we kind of took it too far. We need to scale it back. Meanwhile, America that is supposed to be the beacon of common sense and reality is still being insane. And so obviously I wanted to ask Chloe her thoughts from personal experience about why she thinks that is in the.

Chloe Cole (21:32)

United States, we're a lot more politically motivated. We're not. We're a lot more financially motivated. And those are the two biggest things that are why this has become so pervasive in different industries in the US Especially in health care. Right? It's because it's become an ideological issue. The left has made it into a human rights issue. And it's also incredibly lucrative. It's a lot harder right now in the US to make these big strides to protect our own children and young patients from being subjected to this.

Brett Cooper (22:10)

And I'm so glad that Chloe did not mince words in that statement that she was so straight with everyone. And it could not be more true and it could not be more disappointing. She is right. Follow the money, follow the politics. Those are the two reasons why this issue still exists and is so pervasive in America. And the response to all of these studies, or actually lack thereof, is proof of all of that. This is willful avoidance that we are seeing in the States, and it is doing irreversible damage to an entire generation of children. And of course, in light of Detransitioner Awareness Day, which again, was just yesterday, we have to talk about the children who were experimented upon and then who, like Chloe, were completely left in the dust and left behind, because that is truly what happens on a regular basis in this country. And if you guys didn't know, while we're talking about all these other studies about post surgery, all of that, there are no concrete studies on detransitioners, especially not detransitioning children like Chloe Cole. And in my personal opinion, this is partially because of that willful avoidance that we were just talking about, but also because much of detransitioning happens without medical interventions. Like, doctors aren't even seeing these patients. So they aren't counting. They are not being studied. They aren't offered support or guidance in the first place, like Chloe laid out, like all of these studies laid out. They don't usually get their surgeries reversed, and in many cases, that is impossible. They just kind of stop taking their hormones and they try to go back to living a more normal life, and they socially detransition. And doctors just aren't involved. They rarely see this take place, and the numbers are not available, which is such a travesty because Chloe said that this is happening every single day. And so doctors just aren't involved. Doctors rarely see this play out, and the numbers are not available, which is such a travesty. Now, another thing that Chloe told me, which truly shocked me, is that not only do we not keep records of this, and not only do people often not go to the doctor for detransitioning, but there is also no standard of care. If somebody comes into detransition, they don't even know what to do. If you come in and you say, I'm not happy, this is what she said.

Chloe Cole (24:03)

Detransition isn't really recognized even as a phenomenon within the medical community. There's no standards of care. There are not even any billing codes for doctors or nurses to use when dealing with those of us. There's just not really much that they can do in the first place. Just how many children, how many young men and women end up coming back out of the system and having outcomes like mine?

Brett Cooper (24:23)

But what is so vitally important to remember is that just because doctors don't see them or won't see them does not mean that these individuals like Chloe do not exist.

Chloe Cole (24:32)

We're kind of getting an idea with how many. How many of us are kind of just like, coming. Coming out of the woods and talking about our experiences and increasing numbers just online. Like, there are, I think, tens of thousands, if not more detention individuals who are on social media right now and on different platforms, talking with each other and connecting over their experiences and trying to find help.

Brett Cooper (24:57)

These individuals like Chloe, this entire community, especially of young people, they deserve attention and they deserve real care. Not affirming care, but genuine, holistic care. They deserve to have their concerns and their Regrets and their hopes heard at the bare minimum. And it's insane that when she went into the doctor and said, I'm not really happy with this, I'm confused, I'm regretting, they literally didn't even know what to tell her. They couldn't direct her to anything. Just that, oh, yeah, that's kind of normal. That's insane that they just turn people away and say, yep, sorry, that's normal. It is insane that that does not happen in the first place. But based on everything that Chloe has been saying, it makes sense because, again, it's politics and money. And these transitioners like her do not help either. Cause they don't make the industry more money. They don't push the ideology forward. And that is why it is so important that stories like hers are heard. Like, I just want you all to realize that there is more attention and care and focus over whether we wear our retainers after we get our braces off than how you are doing in life after you chemically and surgically try to change your entire gender. That should not be the case. That is certifiably insane. And it begs the question of why. And so I know that I am really hammering this issue hard. I know that this is probably not the most pleasant episode and it's more of a doom and gloom thing, but like I said, there is is a lot of hope. It's just not in the U.S. barely anything is happening in the U.S. other than Trump's executive orders, which, again, I'm not sure if this current Congress will be able to pass. Another good thing is that There are currently 27 states who have imposed restrictions or full bans on transitioning minors. But there does need to be something on a federal level. This is a federal issue, but obviously that is still an uphill battle. So what needs to change in order to make that happen? Obviously, I think Americans are on our side. 70% of Americans think that men shouldn't be competing in women's sports. That would obviously make you think that the majority of Americans think that this is a ridiculous issue, a dangerous issue that has been pushed way too far. But our government is not listening. Now, Chloe referenced all of the studies that we covered in this episode. She also covered one that we did not, which is the prolific Hilary Cass report out of the uk. And she said that we need one that is just as much of a bombshell right here in the US we cannot really base this and change people's minds off of a study that only has 1,500 participants. Even though that still was a shocking and damning survey. We do need something like Hilary Cass and like this Oxford Journal study, a bombshell study that is all in, that includes detransitioners in their story, one that is simply too big for people to ignore. And Chloe really believes that in addition to all of the advocacy work, all of the stories that she and so many others are telling, that that will be the way to change the culture in a massive way. And I simply could not agree more. I think that she made an absolutely fantastic point. But for now, for those of us who do not have the power to start a study that covers hundreds of thousands of participants and covers detransitioners and figures out a way to study detransitioners, for those of us normal people who just care about this issue, the most important thing that we can do is to continue sharing the stories of people like Chloe, to continue spreading this message. And another thing that I want you guys to think about and to consider that is possibly more important than anything else I have said in this entire episode is that you need to keep pouring into and supporting the people in your lives that are struggling. Because real care, not affirmative social justice care, it begins at home in our communities, with the people that we touch on a daily basis. It is the kind of care that is truly loving, that is truly empathetic, that is preventative, and actually addresses the root causes of all of these issues. And above all else, that is what those of us as individuals who feel very small in this huge monster of an issue, that is what we can focus on, and that is the change that we can make in the world.