← The Brett Cooper Show
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Hi, this is Joe from Vanta. In today's digital world, compliance regulations are changing constantly and earning customer trust has never mattered more. Vanta helps companies get compliant fast and stay secure with the most advanced AI automation and continuous monitoring out there. So whether you're a startup going for your first SoC2 or ISO 27001, or a growing enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta makes it quick, easy and scalable. And I'm not just saying that because I work here.
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Get started@vanta.com so, unfortunately, the horrors for parents never cease. And today we need to talk about Tinder for Kids. Now, Tinder for Kids is a phrase that I thought that I hoped I would never have to utter. It was not even a phrase that came into my frame of being. But I mean, hey, it is 2025. Who is surprised at this point? Because big tech continues to profit off of the insecurities and the whims of children while telling parents that they are actively working on impro security and safety measures. But it seems like every time, they always fall short. When is it enough? When do we step in? Actually, some countries already have. All right, so just jumping in here, I wanna put out a disclaimer. I always feel like that's important to do on these types of episodes. This might not be the video to watch with your young kids, but I actually, on the flip side, would argue that if you feel up for the conversation, if you feel like your kids are ready for it, like, this might be the type of thing that your tweens, your teens should watch. Because I remember being 13 or 14 years old and being so incredibly angry and confused at the way that my mom monitored my social media. Like the way that I would get grounded when she would discover the secret Snapchat account that I would like so desperately try to create, or when I would turn off my life360 because I wanted to go hang out with my friends. And then she would lock me outside the house being like, no, I know that you turned off your location tracking. We need to have a conversation. You are grounded. I was so upset and so confused, obviously, because as a young person, you just wanna be like everybody else. You wanna be mature, you wanna be grown up. And my frustration was not doing anything that was intentionally dangerous or nefarious. But it was because, like I just said, I wanted to be like everybody else. I wanted to participate in what all the other cool young people were doing. And since then, I have just become so grateful for the fact that around that age, she sat me down and she made it so abundantly, uncomfortably, crystal clear as to why she was so strict. She did not mince words about the horrors that were out there in the world and what she was doing in an effort to protect me. Like, these are the same conversations that parents should be having today. But I would argue that the stakes are even higher as ever by this app we need to talk about today that is currently making headlines. So this app is called Wiz and people are calling it the Tinder for kids because it has the same structure of swiping through profiles and finding somebody that you like and that you wanna connect with. Like Tinder or Bumble Bumble, bff, whatever you wanna call it. However, this app is directly targeted at young people, at teens and tweens and online. On their website and in their marketing materials they tell people and parents specifically that they focus on age appropriate engagement. But I'm sorry, how is it age appropriate when there is seemingly allegedly no consistency or acc with their age verification software? How is it safe and appropriate when young teens are unknowingly meeting and connecting with adults who then sexually exploit them? And that is exactly what has been happening with this app. In a recent op ed for the hill, writers Hayley McNamara and Lily Morick wrote, what is the result of this app design? This Tinder typed app, a 12 year old girl meeting up with a supposed 14 year old boy that Wiz connected her with, only to discover that the boy was an adult male who sexually assaulted her. An 8th grader being sexually abused by a 27 year old man, then finding out that she was only one of several underage girls that he had groomed through Wiz. An 11 year old girl being sexually assaulted by a US Marine that she met on Wiz. And These are just three stories from this year alone. Back in 2024, a 20 year old man was arrested in Florida for pretending to be a 16 year old boy and soliciting sexual images from a 14 year old girl. In this article from November of 2024, they write, According to the news release, Morgan began chatting with the victim through the messaging app. They stated that the victim's profile noted that she was 14 years old, but Morgan's profile inaccurately. Oh no, what a unfortunate a blip in our security measures incorrectly showed that he was 16 years old. However, when he requested sexual pictures from the teenager, he confirmed that he was 19 years old at the time. Agent stated and it's not just us in America that is having this issue in the uk. They're grappling with this app as well. In one instance, a man spent years grooming a 12 year old girl through the app. And in another, a Scottish dentist used the app to send a 13 year old girl, quote, disturbing and graphic sexual voice memos. Now, right now, thanks in large part to that op ed from the Hill where they are arguing that Congress needs to step in and do something about this app, it is at the center of a large conversation about child exploitation. But this is not the first time that this app has found itself in hot water. Yes, they still have millions and millions of users. I think at one point they had 16 million users on the platform. But the app was largest back between the years of 2022, 2023. That is when young people were really excited about it. That's when it really took off. And around that time, a couple of years ago, Wiz was actually removed from all of the app stores due to the safety and security. But they were later reinstated after they promised that they had implemented new safety protocols, which clearly hasn't been enough. Now, a man named Stephen Balcombe, who is the founder of the Family Online Safety Institute, tested these new safety protocols and the New York Post reported on what he found. They wrote that Balcombe set up an account to test the app's age verification, purporting to be 15 years old. He claims that while the photo the app took of him was flagged for human review, his account was approved within five minutes, even though he is clearly much older. Quote, as you can tell, I am definitely not 15, said Malcolm, who has salt and pepper hair and a mustache, and we will put a photo of him right here. Wiz approved this man to join their app as a, quote, unquote, 15 year old. Now, the Wiz CEO pushed back on this and gave New York Post a statement and said, we've looked into this thoroughly and here's what actually happened. The person mentioned in the article tried to sign up for Wiz by lying about their age. That rubs me the wrong way, like saying he's lying, like pointing the finger at this man who was literally just trying to figure out if you are actually protecting children. Anyway, he goes on and he says, our age verification system, which runs on Yodi's technology, remember that name, caught the mismatch and shut down the accounts in 84 seconds flat. This is our safety tech doing exactly what it is supposed to do. So in that case, even though the photo was flagged and even though a real person allegedly approved it, the account did get shut down. But clearly based on all of these stories, people are still slipping through the cracks just like they are public universities. But not gcu, because GCU actually cares about their students and making sure that they thrive. 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Back to the story and a more sinister version of slipping through the cracks. My question is what about the 20 year olds, the 23 year olds that could possibly pass as 15 years old where it is less easy to figure out that this man, Stephen Balcombe, is not a 15 year old. This man was clearly easy to identify as older. But not all predators are. And the predators in those stories that I mentioned at the top of this episode, they were all around the age of 20 to 23, 25 years old. And a great example of this is an experiment that a London Broadcasting Company reporter did for this article. The article's headline reads clearly a place where abuse is going to take place calls for teenage dating app to be banned in the uk. I mean they're literally calling it a teenage dating app. This reporter as a 22 year old made an account where he listed his age as 16 and he was easily able to get through their verification system completely unscathed. And immediately this 22 year old man posing as a 16 year old was shown profiles from children as young as 14 years old. London Broadcasting Company wrote one even contained sexual content with a teen saying quote, she didn't send nudes straight away and was looking for a man with a mustache and muscles. Now on top of that, Wiz is an app that is location based so they show you people that are in your area. Hence why it has been so convenient and easy for these predators to directly contact and meet these children, these minors in person. So yeah, I would say that the safety measures need work and that this really isn't age appropriate engagement and content. But the thing is, not all of that falls on the developers. I mean we'll get to that briefly. Yes, obviously they should be held responsible, but there's somebody else involved. Anyway, back to the point, these like loose safety measures are not new. Social platforms across the board have tried or allegedly tried and have failed to protect the young people who use them. My mind immediately goes to Meta. They are just always in the news. They have long dealt with an onslaught of inappropriate content literally being served to its younger users. That was a huge story that came out, Gosh, probably late 2024, 2023. I have an episode on it on comment section where if you made a child account on Instagram, if you said that you were a minor, you were within minutes served highly sexual content through an account that was supposed to protect you and shield you from that exact content. And that is not the only report that has come out about Meta. And I'm not trying to nitpick them specifically because obviously every social media app has these problems X with its it's weird porn on there, TikTok everything. But Meta has very much been in the news and you know, safety measure after safety measure has allegedly been implemented and then year after year, month after month, it seems like new articles and reports coming out showing that these measures haven't actually worked. In fact, just a few weeks ago Time magazine published this court filings alleged that Meta downplayed risks to children and misled the public. This is like the culmination of years of these types of reports from parents from these advocacy organizations, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, they've all published things on this. And in this Time magazine wrote that the following allegations against Meta come from the brief filed in an unprecedented multi district litigation. More than 1800 plaintiffs, including children and parents and school districts and state attorney generals have joined together in a suit alleging that the parent companies behind Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat and YouTube, quote, relentlessly pursued a strategy of growth at all costs, recklessly ignoring the impact of their products on children's mental health and physical health. But possibly the craziest thing that has been revealed about Meta specifically which was revealed at the top of this Time magazine article, was in Instagram's former head of safety and well being testified that when she joined Meta in 2020 she was shocked to learn that the company had a 17 time strike policy for accounts reportedly engaged in the quote unquote trafficking of human beings for sex. Quote, you could incur 16 violations for prostitution and sexual solicitation and upon the 17th violation, finally at 17, your account would be suspended. This former employee testified that by any measure across the industry it was a very very high strike threshold. The plaintiff claim that this testimony is corroborated by internal company documentation. 16 circumstances of human trafficking, oh that's totally fine, but 17, we got you There, that is insane. It is so incredibly disgusting. That's not something that just slipped through the cracks. That was an intentional policy allegedly that they had in place. And you would think that protecting users, especially children, would be the top priority. So why is it that after years of this kind of publicity, these reports, these damning reports coming out, why is it that these companies continuously fall short? One guy on X who was posting about Wiz said big tech talks about safety but rarely follows through on its promises. Kids deserve genuine protection, not PR claims. And the fact that people are now betting on whether this app will be removed again just shows how far the problem has progressed. I think it should be removed from all application source. And what he is referring to there is that there are literal bets on apps like callshee and I think that's how you pronounce it, and polymarket betting on whether Congress will actually do something on whether this app wins that is riddled allegedly with exploitation will be removed from the App Store. Once you get back to Wiz, I want you to see how their website describes the app. Now that you know everything you know, now that you've heard these stories, this is how they describe themselves. Make new friends, connect with people your age from around the world and build real friendships in a safe space. It's age appropriate engagement on Wiz, safety and relatability are key. The Wiz app's age match chatting feature ensures that you are only connecting with friends in your age group, maintaining a secure and age appropriate environment. Like, are there legal ramifications to this of using words like ensure? Like I'm ensuring that you are only speaking to people your own age when we in fact have literal arrests involving children that have been sexually assaulted due to the faults of your age verification platform. Like I just, I would like to know. But now what's interesting, you just saw how they describe themselves. This is how kids and users describe the app. This girl, 16 year old, said it is like Tinder for kids. Like literally when you think of Tinder, that is what it is. Try and hook up or like date. People are literally meeting up with strangers like kids their age. It is really weird and they are not wrong. And for people on TikTok, as I was trying to research and scrolling through videos, especially young women, the common sentiment is that they use this app as a quote unquote ego boost because they know that immediately upon creating their account, on logging on, on redownloading the app, whatever it is, that they will have tens if not hundreds of men in their DMs take a look at this video.
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I'm gonna be honest, I've been using this app called Wizard. I don't know if this is gonna reach anybody. I'm using this app called Wiz. And Loki, this one guy has been texting so much. Like, you found the weirdest people in there. And Loki, I only use it for, like an ego boost. I'm gonna be so serious. Like, I don't really want to have a relationship, but, you know, I'm on there, you guys. You know, maybe. But there's this guy that keeps texting. He's like, why are you texting?
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Are you mad at me?
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Whis. Like, I posted like a photo of my story. He's like, so, so pretty. Like, man, I love whiz. I just paid two bucks to see he was my secret admirer. Like, someone barely viewed me 55 times, so there's that.
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So it literally is just another version of Tinder. But kids can join. Like, that is not a recipe for a disaster at all. And this is not just one single video. This was just the most concise one that I could play for you guys. But I saw 25 videos of young women between the ages of probably 16 and 22 showing their DMs, showing how many hundreds of guys they have sliding up on their whiz stories, reaching out to them, sexting them, whatever. You can imagine it's happening and they are posting about it. And the rationale for being on there, even though the guys are quote unquote weird and it's a little bit odd, is because it is an ego boost. They are seeking that validation. They are seeking those types of connections. So imagine the recipe for disaster where you have an app that has safety protocols, but allegedly people are slipping through the cracks. Their ages are not being verified, and you have thousands, millions of users that are insecure and that are on there for validation and attention and when parents have no idea what is going on. But again, this is not just a whiz problem. The whole thing is creepy. It's a risk for kids. But again, it's not just this app. Which is why one country is taking more drastic measures. And Australia, as of this month has started enforcing their new social media law that keeps keeps children off of certain platforms. And according to Fox, the platforms that will be banned for youth in Australia are Facebook, Instagram, Kik, Reddit, Snapchat threads, TikTok, Twitch X, formerly Twitter and YouTube, and apps that are not banned. And you might have like a jaw dropping response to this. The apps that are not banned. Discord, Google Classroom, that makes sense. Lego, Play, Messenger, Pinterest, Roblox, WhatsApp, YouTube, Kids and LinkedIn. Now I get most of those like Google Classroom, whatever, but not banning Discord and Roblox. Of all the apps out there, of everything that we have learned about what happens on Discord, the breeding ground of radicalization, that is just simply insane to me. Now obviously there is this whole debate on whether this move from Australia is an infringement on Australians rights and the precedent that this could set for Australia to control access to other platforms across the board, even for adults. Now I understand the slippery slope, obviously, and that does concern me, but the argument for doing this and keeping young people under the age of 16 off of these platforms is that that there are plenty of other things around the world in all different kinds of countries that are restricted for minors. So why not this? Why not social media platforms? That's my argument. Even though I understand the concerns, that would be my argument for it. Like we're restricting access to the thing that objectively in 2025, in the modern age is doing them the most harm. That poses the most significant risk. Anyway, people are already pushing back against this, specifically Reddit, who just sued the country of Australia. As of yesterday morning, this article reads that Reddit is calling it an intrusion on free political data discourse and setting the stage for a protracted legal battle. And then they argue that even if the court does uphold the ban, Reddit should be exempt because it did not meet the definition of social media, which is what they added in the filing. And listen, I understand why Reddit is doing this. I understand that you are a business. You do not want to lose money, you do not want to lose users. But is this really the hill that you want to die on? Is the under 16 year old market in Australia that significant for your business? Like, rather than suing an entire government trying to protect children, why don't you step in and try to make your platform better and figure out how to make it safer? Because let's not forget about the jailbait subreddit and the ones just like it that are predatory and inappropriate that span all across the platform. Now in Reddit's defense, they did remove that specific subreddit and they have promised that they have, you know, per usual, they have bettered their safety protocols. But still, like everyone else, like all of these other platforms, they have struggled to keep things clean and allegedly, allegedly, the app is still riddled with what they are calling sexploitation. And so if you cannot prove or show us with 100% certainty that your app is operating with the best intentions for your young users. Zip it. I don't want to see you suing Australia. Go back to the desk, get back to coding and figure out how to make it better. And in my opinion, I don't even know if I should say my opinion. This just seems like an objective fact. But all of this is going to get harder and more complicated with the increase of AI. Now, an interesting thing that I learned about with Wiz is that they use an age verification and digital system called Yodi which has been backed by the World Economic Forum, as you can see here in this article. And in 2023, Yodi, this digital ID platform, went to the FTC with a proposal for a more universal image based age verification system that would allow both companies and parents to consent to minors being on certain social media platforms. They wanted this to be the universal platform the companies were using. But In April of 2024, that proposal was rejected. And why, you might ask? Well, because of serious privacy concerns and concerns over what Yodi would be doing with the data they collected, the images they collected of those children. And obviously that is a bit of an aside in this story, but I did think that it was relevant in the age of AI and in the age of quote unquote sextortion, where predators are often using AI to threaten and blackmail and extort young people, which is already happening across the Internet and across our country, where young people, children as young as 11 years old, have been driven to suicide over the fear and the horror that incriminating photos sometimes edited with AI will be released. And one of these stories recently took place in Virginia with a 15 year old boy named Bryce Tate. The New York Post, as you saw, covered this story and they talked to this boy's father and the father said they acted like a local 17 year old girl. They knew which gym he worked out at. They knew a couple of his best friends and names dropped them. They knew he played basketball for Nitro High School. They built his trust to where he believed that this was truly somebody in his area. The Post is told that the photos Bryce received were not AI generated, but most likely of a real girl who was another victim. So they were posing as a flirty girl sending him photos. Scammers then ask and asked for illicit photos in return. And once they have them extort the victim for money by threatening to show the pictures to family and friends for Bryce, that sum was $500. They asked for $500 to not blast these photos on the Internet. The dad writes, my son had freaking $30 and he's like, sir, I will give you my last $30. And these cowards wouldn't take it. A tearful Adam told the Post, recounting his son's final exchange. If the target, like Bryce, doesn't have the money to send via untraceable methods like gift cards, cryptocurrency, or apps like Cash App or Venmo, extortionists then threaten violence. And Bryce's alleged case outright encouraged the victim to kill himself because, quote, your life is already over. In the last 20 minutes of Bryce's life, he was messaged 120 times, a tactic to keep teens feverishly engaged, creating a, quote, tunnel vision to where you can't set your phone down. Now, three hours after that first text from a local flirty 17 year old girl in his area, Bryce took his own life. And he is not the only one. A representative for the national center of Missing and Exploited Children said that in 2024 there have been 33,000 cases of sextortion on X. Heidi Briones wrote, I am begging parents to teach their kids about sextortion. Be clear and direct. Don't just say don't talk to strangers online. That is too vague. You have to explain exactly how these scams work. Even if your kids cringe or act embarrassed, it is your job. And that is the point that I was trying to make at the top of this episode. And obviously as a parent it is, you know, your discretion to decide when you want to talk to your kids about this, how you want to do it. But if you watch this episode with your child, hi kids. If you are, you know, thinking about showing them or maybe you are a teenager, cause I know I do have teens that watch me. This should all be uncomfortable. This should be heartbreaking. But it also should be food for thought. Because some things simply are not worth the risk. Doesn't matter how many of your friends are doing it, how cool it is, no matter what other parents are okay with, if you're in the parent seat, some things are not worth it. One mom said, my son keeps asking to connect with other people on games like Minecraft and he's mad that I won't let him, but the risks are too high. And Heidi responded and said, let him be mad. Now all of this does tie into the episode that I actually did on Thursday about that guy Clavicular, you know, a seemingly harmless self improvement influencer, a meme to a lot of people and yes, the videos are funny and I can mock them for kind of being gay and all those things, but. But what happens, and this is a real risk, what happens when an insecure, impressionable young person actually follows some of that insane advice? Doing meth, doing coke, taking a hammer to your jaw? What happens when it goes too far? I'm sorry, but we cannot just sit around twiddling our fingers hoping that somebody's gonna be deplatformed, that somebody else will talk to our kids about it, that an app will be taken off the app Store. That's not how it works. Especially not in 2025 when the risks are so high, when there is so much nastiness and disgust and filth going on in the world. You, all of us. I need to talk to myself about this too. We have a responsibility. You have to know what your kids are watching or the impacts of what you are consuming. Yourself doesn't matter if you are 10, 13, 25, 60. You have to know the subliminal messages of what you are consuming. And I think that a lot of people assume that young people are not mature enough to understand this, that they are helpless, that we should helicopter parent them to shield them from these hard conversations in these difficult situations and not make them think about the dangers that are out in the world. You know, protect their innocence. And I understand that. And there is a time and a place to protect that innocence. But I also think by having these hard conversations, you are also protecting their innocence. And what if instead we chose to empower and arm young people, not send them out into the world of social media, completely oblivious to the horrors, the objective horrors that exist out there. So if the social media apps aren't going to do anything, if their new safety protocols are not actually going to work, if time and time again, month after month, we're hearing about new reports, reports of how horrible things are. Maybe we talk to the kids. Maybe again we arm and empower. Maybe we try that on for size.
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