18. Don’t Delete Social Media. Do This Instead.

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Bridging Borders Podcast

Episode 18: “Don’t Delete Social Media. Do This Instead.”

Hosts: Veronika & Sam
Date: April 4, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the dilemma around social media use—should we just delete our accounts, or are there healthier alternatives? Veronika and Sam share personal stories and practical strategies for cultivating a balanced relationship with social media. They analyze both the upsides and pitfalls of platforms like Instagram, TikTok, and Reddit, reflecting on the addictive design of these apps, the impact on self-worth, and how to use social media as a tool, not a trap. Listeners are encouraged to be intentional, mindful, and to “use it, rather than let it use you.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cultural Traditions, Holidays & Social Media for Travel Planning

• The conversation begins with the hosts sharing how Easter is celebrated differently in the UK and Mexico, serving as a springboard for discussing how they use social media to plan trips.
  • Sam books a summer trip to Croatia and uses Reddit to research destinations ([04:41]).
  • Veronika prefers TikTok, Notion, and YouTube for planning itineraries, emphasizing TikTok’s date-filter option to get the latest, most relevant recommendations ([05:52]).

2. The Benefits of Social Media

• Travel: Access to user-generated travel tips, hidden gems, and authentic reviews.
• Staying Connected: Keeping up with friends and acquaintances—although Sam highlights that he has “no idea what acquaintances are doing” since deactivating Instagram ([11:57]).
• Fun, Discovery & Professional Use: Sam enjoys the “funny stuff” and trends on X/Twitter ([13:00]).
• Professional Growth: Veronika uses Instagram professionally, planning posts and limiting active “scrolling” ([18:00], [22:00]).

3. The Downside: Addiction, FOMO & Negative Self-Worth

• Sam shares his experience of losing self-control with Instagram Reels, calling it a “real doom scroll” ([15:04]).

  "I would sit there for an hour, just locked in this real doom scroll... not actually physically or consciously there and just kind of flicking away." (Sam, 15:24)

• Highlight Reel Fallacy: Both hosts discuss how users end up comparing their mundane reality to others’ curated best moments, leading to unnecessary self-criticism ([23:52]).

  "You are comparing yourself to an unrealistic expectation or an unrealistic kind of image, and it happens subconsciously." (Sam, 41:30)

• Instant Gratification & Social Pressure: Veronika speaks on her teenage desire for likes and approval, and the conscious decision to treat Instagram strictly as a work platform ([18:00]–[22:00]).
• Platform Design: The hosts analyze the addictive architecture of social feeds, including casino-like random reward mechanisms and “near wins” ([27:30]).

4. Strategies for Healthier Social Media Use

• Intentional Friction: Sam removes apps from his phone, only accessing them via browsers to make the experience “a lot worse” on purpose ([31:25]).
• Grayscale Mode: Making the phone screen black-and-white to reduce app appeal ([32:34]).
• Unfollowing & Planning: Veronika unfollows everyone to avoid endless feeds, and systematically limits time spent seeking inspiration for content ([22:00], [33:23]).
• Active Engagement: Only seeking specific content or using social media for pre-defined periods.

  "Now if I need to find maybe content ideas or inspiration, I tell myself, okay, Veronica, you have like 30 minutes to look for some content... and save all of this. So for me, it’s more like the active engagement with the platform." (Veronika, 22:00)

5. Reframing Social Media as a Tool

• Sam emphasizes using social media “as a tool rather than something that uses you.”

  "Use it as a tool rather than it using you to generate money." (Sam, 45:04)

• Parkinson's Law: Work expands to fill the time given—timers can help set boundaries ([38:28]).

6. Would They Delete Social Media Completely?

• Sam: For most people, especially regarding Instagram, the answer is “yes”—unless there’s a clear, limited purpose ([40:18]).
• Veronika: Would not have accounts if it weren’t for work; believes in scheduled, purposeful use ([38:28]).

7. Advice for Listeners Struggling with Social Media & Self-Worth

• Seek Professional Help: Therapy can help untangle the need for online approval ([43:07]).
• Be Purposeful: Only follow people/content you truly care about or actively seek out.
• Ask Yourself: Do I really want to use this platform? How do I want to use it?

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Addictiveness and Self-Control:

  “People that do have self-control on Reels and TikTok need to be studied because I can't do it.”
  (Sam, 41:00)

• On Social Comparisons and Filters:

  "Even with the knowledge that this is me comparing to a highlight reel… it happens subconsciously."
  (Sam, 41:30)

• On Transformative Use:

  "If I want to find some content ideas, I plan for it... active engagement with the platform."
  (Veronika, 22:00)

• On Platform Design Mimicking Casinos:

  “They are actively encouraged to make these products... as addictive as possible.”
  (Sam, 23:52)
  "It's this experience of always staying curious, like, what's gonna happen next?... the principle of near wins."
  (Veronika, 27:30)

• On Reclaiming Control:

  “Just increase friction... How can you build this barrier so that it's not as easy for you to reach for it?”
  (Veronika, 32:34)

• On Reflection:

  "You don't automatically need to have social media... do I actually want this?"
  (Sam, 45:04)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:41 — Using social media for travel planning (Sam & Veronika)
• 11:57 — Benefits of social media: Connection & discovery
• 15:04 — The "doom scroll" and Instagram Reels' addictiveness
• 18:00 — Veronika’s evolution from personal to professional use of Instagram
• 23:52 — How social media platforms are designed to be addictive
• 27:30 — Casino psychology: near wins, randomness, and design insights
• 31:25 — Practical friction: removing apps, using browsers, grayscale
• 33:23 — Planning, unfollowing, and strategies for mindful use
• 40:18 — Would the hosts delete their social media?
• 43:07 — Coping with disappointment and comparison online; therapy as a tool
• 45:04 — Final advice: intentionality, reframing social media, and choosing mindful engagement

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Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with a rallying call for intentional, self-reflective use of social media—embracing it as a tool, setting limits, and questioning social default behaviors. Both hosts underscore the importance of active, rather than passive, engagement and encourage listeners to “keep exploring, keep learning and keep connecting”—online and off.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Bridging Borders, the podcast where we try to bridge the gap between cultures through insightful conversations.

[B]

Together we explore diverse topics from productivity to language learning, all the while helping you improve your English skills. Hello, Sam, how are you doing today?

[A]

Hey, Veronica. I'm great. It's a four day week in the UK because we have Easter weekends, so I won't be working on Friday. I probably will be working actually. I'll come to the office and do a little few things. But I'm not teaching on Friday and I'm not teaching on Monday either. So I'm pretty excited for this four day weekend. I've got a few plans and this week I booked a holiday with my friends to go to Croatia. So pretty excited about that as well.

[B]

I have never been there before. I would like to go. Yeah. What did you guys decide to go to Croatia?

[A]

I don't know. I think it's just a little bit different. A lot of British people go to Spain on holiday just because it's so close and it's so cheap. But we went to Fiortaventura last year. I think I pronounced that right. It's in the Canary Islands. And yeah, I think we, I think we just wanted a little bit. Somewhere a little bit different. So grow history was so interesting.

[B]

So basically you're kind of like a lot of people are not going to be working on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Right, okay.

[A]

Yeah, sorry. I booked a holiday for summer. I'm not going away this weekend.

[B]

Okay, got it, got it. Holidays for summer. But like the Easter is Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. It's interesting because here in Mexico people are also celebrating Easter and it's called like semana Santa, like the Holy weekend.

[A]

That's what they call it in Europe. Spain and Europe as well.

[B]

Okay, okay. Yeah. But I think here everyone starts celebrating starting on Thursday. Even today is Wednesday. We're recording this episode on Wednesday and it's kind of quiet outside because usually I live next to like a very busy street and there are lots of cars everywhere. Everywhere. Like people are going somewhere. Especially in the morning people are going to work. Right now I woke up and I was like so quiet. So I feel like people are already kind of starting to relax a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. In, in Spain they have some very strange samana Santa traditions where like so I think it's all men, but they have to like practice carrying this. I don't know even what this like stage thing. And they have to get. I don't, I have no idea. But they have to like go through this awful physical challenge of carrying something into like the. The town square or city square or plaza or something. Very odd, in my opinion. But it looks very painful. But we don't really have any traditions in the uk. One of my students from Ukraine was asking me recently about the traditions in the UK and Easter and I said, because no one is really religious here anymore, it's just about eating Easter eggs, which are just chocolate eggs. And if you have kids, the Easter bunny hides some chocolate eggs around your garden or house and the kid has to find them, but that's about it.

[B]

Do you guys make those Easter eggs yourselves or do you buy them?

[A]

We buy them from supermarkets and they are pretty cheap, from like £1 to about £5. So, yeah, nothing creative, no even effort involved. You just go to a supermarket, spend a few pound and. Yeah. You gift that to a child. Yeah, my mum and dad have stopped buying me an Easter egg.

[B]

You're not a child in. Brilliant.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Wow. Interesting. I know that here in Mexico a lot of people are religious, so it is a very big religious holiday for many people here. And also obviously people are going to be celebrating with their families for sure. So probably that's why a lot of people are actually not going to be in the city, because a lot of people live outside the city or in different neighborhoods or maybe they're going to be out of city complet to celebrate Easter with their family somewhere else. Like in a different state in Mexico.

[A]

Yeah. I think in the UK it's just about kind of like the start of spring because the clocks change. In the UK it's Sunday, so people are pretty happy about it getting darker an hour later and not at 6pm so it's like the start of spring and summer, I guess. So that's why people usually like Easter.

[B]

Okay, got it. Yes. Like the feeling that the weather is changing. Yeah. I wanted to ask you, Sam, that, like, you guys are planning a trip to Croatia. Did you guys. Or are you guys planning to use social media to check where to go, what places to visit? Do you guys plan that? Like, how does it work?

[A]

I did. The organization of the holiday in terms of finding flights. It's quite an ordeal actually, because you have to choose out of your friendship or you have to not choose, but like, see out of your friendship group who wants to come on holiday, and then you have the numbers of people, then you find the dates and then you have to find the flight, and then you find a hotel or a vill. You're going to stay in. So I did all. Most of the admin for that, but I don't think I'll use any. I used. I've used Reddit actually already just to find some information. I went on the subreddit of the city that we're staying close to, and that was really. That was really useful. I don't think I'll use anything else because I don't really have any other social medias. I don't have TikTok. I'm sure maybe one person in the group will search something on TikTok, because I know that's a new way to kind of find out what's happening locally in terms of like maybe restaurants to eat. My sister has definitely done that when we were in Kalkan in Turkey two years ago. But I won't search anything on Twitter probably because I don't think I'll find anything useful. I don't have Instagram because I've deactivated my account, so I've got nowhere really to search. But Reddit was. Reddit was useful.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, Reddit is very useful. I feel like, for me, when I. Because right now I'm actually also working on creating an itinerary for us to go on a trip in June. So, like a lot of people are going on this trip to a beach town here in Mexico. And I'm planning, kind of planning all of this. I just really like it. I like adding everything to my notion page because I love using Notion and I'm saving all information there. Like I have a separate board or a separate page dedicated to traveling, like all the trips. So basically what I usually do is. You just mentioned Reddit. I feel like I should use Reddit more often when it comes to planning trips because lately I've been relying on TikTok a lot. I just go to TikTok and I search, let's say like the best places to visit in Istanbul, Turkey or stuff like that on. On TikTok. And there are like a lot of very good recommendations. So yeah, I really like TikTok for that. Like for searching specific things you need to look for. Other than that, I don't use TikTok. E. Um, and I think the second thing that I use too is YouTube. I just type in the name of the place and maybe like traveling guide or something like that. Know a lot of people traveling. Like, they show you the places where they like to go to. So that's the second resource that I use, YouTube. You should biggest. And the third one, I actually just use Google and type in, like, let's say again, Istanbul, Turkey travel guide. There are a lot of different articles. I just go through them really quickly and see, like, maybe people recommend something because usually that's how I find maps. Because, like, the problem that I experience, especially in a lot of, like, beach towns, is that you don't really know where to stay in terms of is it going to be too loud, Is it too far away from the beach? Like, what does it look like? So, yeah, it's very useful to have a map and like, the person telling you, okay, I stayed here and I think this location is great because of that I stayed there and I don't think this Ephesian is great because of.

[A]

Have you ever been anywhere like a restaurant or even a town or done something that you saw on TikTok and you thought, wow, that looks amazing, and then you went and did it and you're like, okay. The reality wasn't what was painted online,

[B]

to be honest. Not really. I feel like my experience has been really good so far in terms of, like, the places that I find, I guess, like in terms of restaurants, for example. Restaurants or bars, it really depends because. Because some people are gonna like something. Some people have, like, their own, like, food preferences and stuff like that. So, yeah, I would say usually I go to places like restaurants and bars with an open mind and understand, like, if I didn't like one specific drink or one specific dish, it doesn't mean the restaurant is, like, all bad. Probably I just order something bad or it's just like my personal preference because I'm sure another person would come in and they would love the exact same dish. So. But I would say that, yeah, for me, what I found especially useful is using TikTok to find good places to visit in terms of traveling. For example, in Mexico, when you go to a specific beach town, maybe there are going to be islands close to this beach town that you could visit. And like, normally you would be like, oh, I had no idea. Like, you can even, like, do this trip situation, like, visit another place. And so usually TikTok is nice because people can, like, show you what this place actually looks like. Because oftentimes you're like those beautiful pictures online, like on Pinterest. So beautiful. But in reality, maybe that picture was taken like 10 years ago and this place looks nothing like this right now. So that's nice. That also, like, TikTok has this filter option. You can filter by date and see, like, the. The most relevant videos on the platform.

[A]

Yeah. So we were going to Discuss more broadly or widely, should we delete social media? And obviously if you deleted TikTok, then you wouldn't be able to do that. What are some of the positives of using social media, do you think?

[B]

Yeah, I think there are a lot of advantages or benefits, I would say benefits to using social media. For me, the first obvious one is definitely for traveling, like something that we just discussed here. Because when I travel, to be honest, I've had experiences in the past where I didn't plan for anything at all. I would say it's not like I didn't like it at all, but I definitely felt like when we arrived at a certain location, I just felt like there was nothing to do because I didn't know what to do. Like no one knew what to do and everyone was like, well, now what? Like we just saw this like beautiful church, let's say this like market. What are we invited to do now? No idea where to eat, where to go. So that's why I still prefer to plan for things. And that's why I think social media is an amazing thing. You can find travel bloggers maybe online, like influencers on Instagram, especially who share like their IT, NRA and stuff like that on YouTube as well. So I think that's for me, one of the biggest benefits to using social media. Obviously for me, I work on social media. So obviously like this aspect of business growth and working on your personal brand is also a big part of using social media for people who work on social media. So what do you think, Sam? What are the benefits of social media for you?

[A]

Yeah, like I said, I think the main social medias for me when I think about it are Facebook. But I don't think many people use Facebook anymore. If you're under the age of 35, 40, apart from the messenger app, I think quite a few people use that still Twitter or X, whatever you want to call it, Instagram and then TikTok. I may be not classifying Reddit, but Reddit I guess is a social media, but it's not really as personal in the sense that maybe Instagram or Twitter is because you have a username. It's not really people control like check your profile that often or you're not like posting to a, like a page that's all about you or whatever you're commenting in communities. So I guess for me, I think the benefits are staying in touch with your friends. I think because I don't have Instagram, because I deactivated it, I see less of what my friends and acquaintances are doing, and I have no idea what my acquaintances are doing because some of my friends are my best friends. I speak to them regardless of social media, so I'll see them in real life or, you know, I'll speak to them via a messaging app or whatever, or speak to them on the phone so I get updates about their lives. But I have a lot of people that I've met over the years who I'm not really friends with but still might be curious about what they're up to or I might, you know, just generally curious about what they're doing and I don't get to see that anymore. I have no idea. Which can be a positive and it can be a negative because a lot of the time it's uninteresting stuff and I don't really care. But maybe very occasionally it might be something, you know, interesting or worthwhile seeing. So I think that's the main benefit is you get to stay up to date with maybe your friends, maybe trends, you get to learn about new things, you discover new things. And it's also pretty fun as well. I don't post on Twitter, but I have an account and I just lurk on there. So I just, I just follow a few accounts and on my for you page I just go through that maybe like twice or three times a day and I just find funny stuff that's kind of all related to stuff I'm interested in. And it's kind of like also like things embedded in the United Kingdom that I just find funny, amusing or interesting. So I think, I guess for me the main benefits are having fun, enjoying it, and also kind of engaging with people that are not in your immediate life.

[B]

Do you ever, you mentioned the for your page? Do you ever feel overwhelmed by the content on that page on any social media platform? Because usually that's what people start talking about when they talk about TikTok, Instagram. I don't use Twitter much, so you said they also have the for you page, so yeah. How do you feel about that? Do you feel like you can just cross, cross for all and lose the track of time when you're there or you do you feel like you're in control?

[A]

That's why I don't have Instagram because ever since they implemented the REELS option, I just would lose all self discipline and self control and it would make me feel negative about myself because I would start watching at like, like, let's say it's 17 minutes past 1 1pm and I'd say, okay, I'M just gonna lie on my bed because I'm a bit. You know, imagine it's the weekend, I'm lying in my bed. I just got back from something. I'm just kind of resting for like 10, 15 minutes until I get ready to do whatever I'm doing next. And I would go on Instagram, I go on reels, I would say, okay, I'm gonna stop doing this at 20 past, or I'm gonna stop doing this at half past. And then it would get to half past, and then, oops, it's 29 minutes to 2. I've gone past the time. I'd be like, okay, I'll get off in five minutes. And then I just keep going. And sometimes I would sit there for an hour, just locked in this real doom scroll where I'd just be not actually physically or consciously there and just kind of flicking away. And if someone asked me, what was the reel that you saw three reels ago? I wouldn't be able to remember or tell you what it was. I might have come across some interesting thing. Like, I might have seen a new someone explaining, like, a technique in the gym that I think, oh, wow, I'd have never seen that if I never wasn't using reels. So I guess that's how they hook you in, is that most of them are not actually useful or entertaining maybe. But then very occasionally, you'll get a really good one or funny one or interesting one or useful one, and you'll think, okay, it's worthwhile. And then you just spend another half an hour on them. So that's why I deactivated Instagram. I think I deactivated it before because I just, I didn't really use it. I didn't really like posting on there because I just didn't see the need for me to share my life. And I felt like a. When I was doing things this, like, almost this social pressure within myself to upload things online to get gratification from, like, other people. So when I do something, like, I remember I ran the Madrid half marathon and I was training for this marathon for, like, half marathon for like 14 weeks. Got the time that I wanted. I was really happy with myself. It's the first time I did it. And like, the first thing, like after the finishing line was, I can't wait to upload this to Strava so people can see. And, like, I've got. I hope some. My sister took some good photos for my Instagram. And like, I'm. It's like an extra Layer of reward, which I didn't want in my life. So I think that's why I deactivated. But then occasionally I'll reactivate it and I just get stuck in the reels. I go, I hate this. I'm getting off. But yeah, that's, that's my experience with it. What about you?

[B]

Yeah, I have a very similar. A very similar story, I would say. Yeah, I always struggled a lot with social media, especially with social media like Instagram and TikTok, but I think for me, the story was more so about Instagram. I remember, like, growing up when I, I think I was probably 14ish when I, like when I started my Instagram page and I was just like posting pictures of myself, like, traveling with my family and stuff like that. And yeah, like, the feeling that I was, the main feeling that I experienced was definitely that I wanted to get this instant gratification of like, oh, me posting something and then seeing how many likes I got. So that's something that I struggled with a lot when I was a teenager. And then when I went to college, I realized what was going on and it was like, okay, I don't want to do this anymore. Like, I'm not, I'm not interested in this. Like, why am I actually doing this? I want to live my life for me and I'd like to get, get gratification from people. So I deleted my Instagram page and I stopped using social media at all. So, like, my college years, my first, like my high school and eight years actually to maybe the last year of high school, my first year of college, my second year of college, I did not use any social media at all. Maybe only YouTube. Not maybe, I mean YouTube, but I think YouTube is a little bit different. Like, yeah, so for me, I, I never felt, like, bad when I was using YouTub YouTube and I followed a few people and I watched their videos and I liked it. And that's actually something that motivated me or encouraged me to start my own YouTube channel because I was seeing all those people create theirs and share their lives or something useful, create videos online. And I was like, oh, I want to do it too. So for me, YouTube was always a very positive space, a very positive platform. And when I started my YouTube channel, I realized that, okay, I actually need to start my Instagram page right now, because it's kind of my work now. But it was so terrifying to like, get into this negative thinking loop again because of Instagram that I was like, I don't know, maybe I should wait so I think only a year or maybe like seven months into my YouTube journey, I was like, okay, let me start in, like, an open Internet, new Instagram account and just, like, use it for work. And I just felt so out of touch with, like, everything on Instagram. I didn't know how to use, like, filters because back then, like, filters were very popular. And I was like, how am I supposed to, like, do all of this? It's like too much. Too much information, too many different things that I don't know how to use. And yeah, like, at. At first, I was definitely very slow in terms of, like, oh, how to use Instagram. But then I realized that, okay, especially my work. And what actually helped me is treating Instagram as solely my job. So, like, planning for it. Okay, what type of content do I want to post? When do I want to post it? And that's it. So I was not, like, following anyone. And that really helped me develop, like, a good relationship with Instagram. And that's actually something that I'm doing right now too, because probably a year ago, I actually started following some people and I realized that I started wasting a lot of time on Instagram just by, like, watching those people's stories or watching their reels. And then right now, what Instagram implemented is, like, when you go to the homepage, not like the for you reels page, or when you stop, like, when you saw all of the content of your friends, like, the people you follow, instead of. Because in the past, Instagram would tell you, okay, that's it. Like, that's it for today. Because you, like, you just saw all the content right now what's happening is they place recommended videos in between your friends videos. So it becomes another for you page. It's like, never ending. You're like, okay, my friend just posted this thing. And then the next video is like a completely different person or maybe an ad. And you're like, oh, my God. And you just can't stop because even though you watched all your friends content, now you have all this new content there. And that's what was happening to me. Yeah. So at one point it was like, oh, my God, I can't do that anymore. And it just unfollowed everyone. And I stopped following my friends at first. Yeah, I guess I struggled a little bit with the fact that I, like, I didn't know what was going on in their lives. But at the same time, if I really wanted to reach out to them, hang out with them, talk to them, I could always do that on, like, telegram them WhatsApp. So call them or meet up with them. For me, yeah, it's, it's a lot better because now for me, Instagram is only for work. I use it because I work there. If I want to find some content ideas, I plan for it. Because I know a lot of people who kind of work on social media. On Instagram, they use this phrase as an excuse, like, let me go watch some reels for work. You know, I'm looking for inspiration. But in reality they can spend like hours on the for you page and just scroll, scroll, scroll and look for inspiration, but not really. So now if I need to find like specific, maybe ideas, content ideas or inspiration, I tell myself, okay, Veronica, you have like 30 minutes to look for some content, maybe some trending songs and stuff like that and save all of this. So for me, it's more like the active engagement with the platform. So that's how I approach is there right now.

[A]

Yeah. You have to remember that these companies get their product is free. You don't have to pay to go on Instagram, so they're getting paid through advertisers. And the longer people spend on their applications, the more money this app, these applications get. So they are actively encouraged to make these products and services as addictive as possible. And they use psychological like tricks and manipulation to get people addicted and hooked on these applications. So for example, like the scroll down function that was based off in casinos where people would pull down a lever and they'd have like the random, the randomization aspect of it, they based that off those slot machines in casinos because they wanted people to keep refreshing and seeing what random content would come up next. So if anyone wants to reduce their social media usage, there's a documentary called the Social Dilemma, which used to be on Netflix and it's an excellent documentary for explaining how social media works like the algorithms in a very basic way, of course. But it kind of explains why social media is addictive and the harm it can have on individuals and people. And it's quite clear that social media can have a. It's not just, you're not just wasting time on it. Like you said, it also can be really harmful for your self worth and your self image because like you said, if you upload a picture and you don't get as many likes as you usually do, you're going to start thinking, oh, someone might start thinking, oh, you know, do I not look good? Does this person not like me anymore? Do they not? And you start having these internal thoughts, especially if like you're single and you're like being, trying to be like romantically involved with someone and they don't like your post, that's gonna, that's gonna ruin your day probably. So, yeah, it's, it's. I remember having the experience as well. Like when you start posting regularly and you expect a certain amount of likes on a post and you don't reach it, it makes you feel bad. It does because it's social approval from other people and you're not getting that social approval because it's not meeting your expectations. So. So I think in terms of that it can be really negative and also just comparing yourself to others because I know you, Veronica, but I don't see you 100% of the day. I know me. I know all my thoughts, I know all my feelings, I know all of my actions. I'm there with me 24 7. So I know myself better than anyone else does. I don't know people that I follow on Instagram very well, especially people that aren't my friends who, because I'm just basing their life off what they upload to Instagram, which is not their entire day, it's just their highlight reel most of the time. It's their best moments. And it's not just their best moments during a day, it's their best moments during a month or a three month period. And it's quite easy to automatically compare your life to someone else's and think, wow, this person's traveling all over the world, or wow, they've got so much money or their life is so much better than mine. And you can start feeling negative about yourself because you're comparing yourself to something that's just not actually real. So if Instagram was like an actual realistic portrayal of people's lives, it would be very strange because you'd see people at their low moments when they're feeling sad, when they're being lazy, when they're not being a very nice person. And you'd have a completely different idea and image of what that person's like and you wouldn't feel so bad about yourself.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. You started talking about this like casino, the principle that people also use in casinos. And I remember when I was working on a YouTube video for my second channel about like deleting TikTok or not deleting TikTok. I also saw this principle called near wins and it's also like connected to casinos. So basically, TikTok, Instagram, they use this principle of near wins as well. The way it works is every Time you scroll to see a new video, you, as Sam just said, you have no idea what it's going to be, right? You're scrolling, you're like, oh, what's going to be. So all these colors and sounds and bright lights and sound effects, they're all very engaging. And that's something that makes you want to keep on scrolling. And it's not that the endless content necessarily hooks us. It's this experience of always being and staying curious, like, what's gonna happen next? You know, like, if I continue scrolling, maybe the next video is going to be more interesting. Maybe the next video is going to be funnier. So it's like you're constantly. You're not like 100% winning, because it's not like every single video you see is 10 up of 10. Now, some videos you lack less, some videos you like more, some videos you want to, like, share with your friends. So, yeah, it's the principle of near wins. You're always interested to see what's going to happen next because maybe the next video is going to be the 10 out of 10 video or maybe the 50 out of 10 video for me. And also the second principle that I talked about in that YouTube video was Hicks law. So Hicks law says that the more choices we have, the harder it is for us to make a decision. It's something that we can experience when we go to a supermarket, for example, if we need to buy pasta, let's say we see a lot of different pasta brands and we just can't make a choice because there's so many different ones. But if you go to a smaller supermarket and you only see two pasta brands, it's a lot. It's going to be a lot easier for you to make this choice, to make a decision. So that's the same principle that TikTok is using, Instagram is using. When you open the app, for example, TikTok, the videos start playing right away. But you don't need to think about it. And I don't know if you guys noticed or Sam, maybe you noticed if you use, like, YouTube on your phone a lot right now. YouTube sometimes uses this principle too, because in the past, every time you were opened, YouTube, probably it was the homepage, like, not the subscriptions page. But right now, every time you open YouTube on your phone, they open. Not every time, sorry, like from time to time, not every single time you open the app, they show you the reels, the reels page. So you open the app and the videos, the reels start playing immediately. You feel like you're on TikTok, you just open the app and then the videos are, like, hitting your. Like, oh, my God. No, please, no. Exit. Exit. So it's exactly like YouTube was trying to follow this Hicks law too, so that you don't. As a user, you don't spend a lot of time figuring out what to watch, because oftentimes people open YouTube, they start looking at videos and, like, there's nothing to watch. And then we exit the app. And obviously YouTube doesn't want that. So if they immediately start showing you reels, the chances of you staying on the platform way higher.

[A]

Yeah. That's why I don't have any of the social media or even YouTube apps downloaded on my phone. So, like, the actual user experience is a lot worse, which is a little bit annoying. But try watching Instagram stories on Safari or a web browser. It's awful because it doesn't, like, automatically, you know, if you're on the Instagram app and you, like, click through someone's story and you finished watching all their uploaded stories, it will go to the next person.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But on Safari, it will take you back to the home screen and you need to scroll through the people again. And it's so awful that you'll just end up watching no one's stories, which is actually pretty good because most of the people, you don't really need to see what they're up to on a Tuesday morning, for example. Yeah. That's one way you can make you want to go on social media. Let's just make the user experience a lot worse. Another way I can do it is you can change, like, the color on your phone. So mine sometimes black and white. It's called grayscale. And it's. It's so boring. Like, this is the worst thing ever. I'm really bored. So, yeah, just make it way less attractive to be on social media.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Just increase friction. Yeah. That's something that a lot of people talk about. It's an amazing tip. Yeah. If you feel like you want to start using social media more, just think about how you can make this barrier, let's say, stronger. Like, imagine this is you. This is like social media in front of you. How can you build this barrier so that it's not as easy for you to reach for it. Yeah. There can be a lot of different things, but I really like what you just said, Sam. For sure. Like using grayscale on your phone. Maybe like just deleting all the apps from your phone so that if you do want to use Instagram, you have to open your computer and experience it. It's definitely different from using the app on your phone because it was built for your phone.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. One of the other benefits I've found of not having Instagram is not being bothered about getting photos and videos when I'm doing something. So when I go on holiday, it's nice to take photos for memories and it's nice to send photos to your family or whatever, but I'm not really bothered about every single time I go out for a meal of getting a nice photo of my food or a nice photo of me or me and my girlfriend to post to Instagram. And when I go to a music concert or anything live, I don't care about, like, oh, I've got to get a good picture for Instagram. I'm just more present and I'm there to actually enjoy the experience rather than there to get a good photo to share it to Instagram. Because I don't know what it's like where you've lived, but in the uk, if you go to a music venue, it's just phones. Just phones. And you're like, are these people here for the experience or are these people here to upload it to Instagram? And it's not just one or the other, it's both. But it seems like uploading it to Instagram is as important as actually being there in the first place. So I think that's a real nice aspect of not having Instagram, which I can imagine is pretty not. You have to upload pictures to Instagram. So how does that make you feel?

[B]

Yeah, it's interesting because it's something that I experienced too, a lot. Yeah. And like, you just mentioned the festival experience. And I think last year, like, I have definitely changed the last maybe six months or eight months I was. I started to change the way I approach social media one more time because last year I realized that something was making me very unhappy about social media. And I couldn't really pinpoint that. And yeah, last year when I went to a music festival here in Mexico City, I realized that my goal was to take pictures or to take videos. And I was constantly thinking, okay, did I take enough pictures or did I take enough videos to post on social media? And for me, I think the problem was also that I work on social media. So I was trying, like. Like, I know that as a user, if my job was not connected to social media, I would not even worry about it. Like, I could care less about posting stuff Just for the sake of posting things. So that's also, I guess, something that, like, helped me change the way I approach social media. Just thinking of it as work. And I understand that when I go to a music festival, let's say it's not work. Like, it's relaxing, having a good time. So the way it changed for me this year for, for example, when I went to music festival is I went there and I was like, I'm not taking any pictures or any videos to post on social media. If it does happen that after the festival, I open my, you know, the photo album thing on my phone and I see a few photos that I like and I want to post, I'm gonna do that, but I'm not gonna be purposefully trying to post, like, to make videos for Instagram specifically. Obviously, I took some pictures because I wanted to remember the moment and, like, half the pictures of, like, our outfits and the atmosphere and stuff like that. So I want those photos for myself, but not to post all of them. So the question is, did I post anything? Yes, I did, but I didn't feel like. Like I had to or I didn't feel like I didn't, you know, make enough content to post. I was like, okay, here are all the pictures I took. Let me think which ones I would like to post. Okay, like, these two done. Like, I felt so much calmer after that. And that's how I approach, like, the whole social media thing right now. Like, Instagram specifically. I just understand that, okay, like, my posting schedule is like. Like, let's say three times per week. And for me to post, like, three times per week, I need to think, what kind of content do I want to post? So I make it in advance. I record everything. And just the picture that I take at home, I don't know, just like drinking tea or something like that. It's a picture for me. It's not a picture that I want to post on social media because I have everything planned out already for social media.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. One nice little cheat is that most people take photos, so you don't need to take photos. And you can just ask other people for the photos that they took if you don't want to take photos yourself.

[B]

Absolutely true. A lot of people take pictures. Yeah. Sometimes you can just ask them. Absolutely.

[A]

Do you think if you didn't work on social media and you had a different job that didn't involve social media whatsoever, do you think you would still have different accounts or do you think you would use them?

[B]

No, absolutely not.

[A]

You Wouldn't even have an Instagram account.

[B]

No.

[A]

Really?

[B]

No. Yeah, because. No, I didn't think so. Because that's. Even right now, I don't use. As I said, like, I stopped using Instagram as a user a very long time ago. And on and off I kind of went back into it. But every time I would go back into it, I realized how much time I was wasting on the platform and it was not doing me any good. And right now, every time I want to use a specific platform, it's for a specific purpose. Like, okay, I want to watch a few reels right now because I'm looking for a trendy sound and like, I said, a timer for myself. Because you can look for a trendy song for like an hour and still not find one. It happens. But if you said, like, a time limit for yourself, do you, like, we only have 15 minutes. Minutes to look for a trendy song. It happens at 15 minutes. Because I think there is, like this law of something like time or work expands based on how much time you give yourself. Like, if you say that, okay, I need to finish this task in an hour, it's going to take you an hour. But if you say that I need to finish this task in a week, it's going to take you a week because you just gave yourself a week. Yeah. So I think it's the same thing for me, just, like, being very mindful about it and I understand that. For me, it's work. So I research stuff. I look for stuff only for work. If I feel like I want to relax and I'm kind of grabbing my phone to open Instagram and like, just watch a few reels, I'm like, is there something else that I could be doing? And usually the answer is always yes. Yes, there is something else that I could be doing.

[A]

Yeah. So for me, the answer to the question, should you delete social media if you're not working on it? It probably is a yes. Especially Instagram. I feel less. It depends what you use. I think if you just use X or Twitter like I do, and you use it for like 15 minutes a day maybe, and you maybe get some news on there and you just find it entertaining and there's nothing really too, like, personal or tied to you. You, especially if you don't post on there, then I think that's fine as long as you're not wasting too much time. And then TikTok, I don't know if you can manage it. I don't know many people that can manage it.

[B]

It's very hard. TikTok is extremely addicting.

[A]

Yeah, people, people that do have self control on Reels and TikTok need to be studied because I can't do it. I feel like I'm quite a disciplined person, but I lose all of it when I'm using those types of apps, so. So for me they're an easy no. They can be useful just to redownload occasionally. Like for example, if you're going on holiday like you said, and just doing a little bit of research, but then just delete it again, just use it as a tool rather than something that you automatically use every day for a few hours a day. And then Instagram, it's a clear no for me because I just think you compare yourself to others subconsciously, even with the knowledge that this is me comparing to a highlight reel or kind of maybe an edited photo, especially now that you know there's filters, people edit their photos. You are comparing yourself to an unrealistic expectation or an unrealistic kind of image and it happens subconsciously. And I just don't enjoy the process and I don't really care. I don't want to spend the time and effort trying to develop a healthy relationship with it. So for me it's just easier just to say, say, nope, I'm not going to engage in that. But I'm sure there are some people that do enjoy it and they like the visual aspect of it. So for example, if they're more artistic than me and they actually like photos, then Instagram could be a really great app. As long as all the people you're not following and just posting pictures of their, you know, scrambled eggs in the morning or their Strava runs or their spotified rap highlights, you're like, I don't care about any of this. But if they actually post interesting images, then it could be a great app. But do you have any advice for people who maybe self worth is attached to their uploads? Because for your job you have to upload videos and social media posts and some of them will do better than other ones. And I'm sure you've had experiences of uploading something and it's not, it didn't do as well as you hoped and that might have negatively affected how you feel. So do you have any advice for people if they have that with social media media apart from just don't use it?

[B]

Oh, I think it's, it's really hard. I think for me, like a big, like one big thing that helped me is therapy. I think If a person is really struggling with it, therapy is the place to go for sure. Because, I mean, you can read a lot of books. It's like, if reading books on this topic or maybe watching a few videos on this topic can help you, then of course, like, take the responsibility back instead of allowing the app to take your responsibility over, not to take control over you. Yeah, but I would. Even one thing that I wanted to add is on Instagram, I sometimes not, like, follow closely, but sometimes I. I like the content that certain people post because maybe, as you just mentioned, maybe like, you're interested in photography and there is, like, an influencer who shares their, like, their camera gear, their camera settings and stuff like that. So I like this type of content. And sometimes when I'm like, oh, I wonder if, like, this specific person posted anything useful on this specific topic. And I was like, purposefully look for their Instagram page. And I would just go on Instagram and, like, look at only their page and like, okay, what are some, like, new reels they posted? Maybe I can learn something new. But again, it only happens when I. I am, like, more actively engaged. I'm like, okay, I actually want to look at this person's content. I want to watch their videos, and that's it. Like, it doesn't happen. Like, oh, Instagram recommended me their video. No, it's like, I'm purposefully looking for their video about a specific topic. Hey, they can watch their stories to see what they're doing. And once I'm done, I'm done. Yeah. Like, I. I got all the useful information that I wanted. That's it.

[A]

Yeah. So choose. I. I think an important point is also, you don't automate, like, people automatically assume that you have social media. It's like, like brushing your teeth in the morning. It's just like something that is just normal. And we don't really ask ourselves the question, do I actually want this? So I guess that's a question to ask yourself first, do I actually want to use social media media? And then second of all, how do I want to use it? And you should use it as a tool rather than it using you to generate money.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. I love this sentence. Amazing. Yeah. An amazing place to wrap up our episode.

[A]

Yep. Yeah, I think so. I don't have anything else to say.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening. And thank you, Sam, for the conversation.

[A]

Yep. Thank you, Veronica. And thank you, everyone. The first listening.

[B]

Thank you. Bye.

[A]

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Bridging Borders. If you enjoyed the conversation. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast for more useful insights.

[B]

Stay connected by following us on social media. You can find us at Bridging Underscore borderspodcast. Until next time. Keep exploring, keep learning and keep connecting.