'A huge freaking deal': Psaki sounds alarm on Supreme Court letting DOGE access social security data

Summary

Podcast Summary: "A Huge Freaking Deal": Psaki Sounds Alarm on Supreme Court Letting DOGE Access Social Security Data

Introduction In the June 7, 2025 episode of "The Briefing with Jen Psaki," host Jen Psaki delves into a series of pressing and interconnected issues dominating the headlines. The episode centers around a landmark Supreme Court decision granting Elon Musk's DOGE team unprecedented access to sensitive Social Security data, the controversial return and charging of Kilmar Obrego Garcia, and the escalating feud between former President Donald Trump and tech mogul Elon Musk. Through expert interviews and insightful discussions, Psaki unpacks the implications of these developments on national security, data privacy, and the broader political landscape.

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Supreme Court Ruling: DOGE's Access to Social Security Data

Key Points:

• The Supreme Court issued a split decision allowing Elon Musk's DOGE team access to highly sensitive Social Security records of every American.
• Additionally, the court ruled that DOGE is not required to disclose its internal records to a government watchdog group.
• The decision has sparked significant concern due to the potential privacy risks associated with widespread access to personal data.

Notable Quotes:

• Justice Kentaji Brown Jackson ([05:15]): "Once again, this court dons its emergency responder gear rushes to the scene and uses its equitable power to fan the flames rather than extinguish them."
• Jen Psaki ([06:00]): "This Social Security News may seem like a dry story about access to data, but it is a huge freaking deal and will continue to be because Social Security numbers are the key to accessing just about every facet of life in America."

Discussion Highlights: Psaki emphasizes the gravity of the Supreme Court's decision, highlighting the extensive reach of Social Security numbers in everyday life—from banking to employment and beyond. Concerns are raised about who will have access to this data, pointing to specific DOGE staffers like Marco Olaz and Luke Ferrator, whose backgrounds and affiliations add layers of worry regarding data security and intent.

Interview with Ronan Farrow: Implications of Data Weaponization

Key Points:

• Investigative reporter Ronan Farrow discusses the potential for data to be weaponized when centralized and accessed by entities with minimal oversight.
• He draws parallels to international examples, such as China's use of centralized data for surveillance and targeting minority groups.
• Farrow expresses alarm over DOGE's capabilities and Musk's intentions, questioning the safeguarding of data within AI systems.

Notable Quotes:

• Ronan Farrow ([08:34]): "Data can be weaponized. There is a reason why privacy law exists...when you aggregate data and you put it into hands with little oversight, it can and very often will be abused."
• Farrow ([11:58]): "Elon Musk and his companies were already significantly enmeshed in the federal government before Trump took over. Now, Trump has given Musk and his minions extraordinary new access to even broader swaths of the government."

Discussion Highlights: Farrow underscores the dangers of allowing private entities like DOGE, led by figures such as Musk, to access and potentially exploit vast amounts of personal data. He raises critical questions about the integrity of data protection measures and the risk of this information being integrated into Musk's AI projects, potentially serving his private interests over public welfare.

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Senator Alyssa Slotkin on Public Concerns and Data Privacy

Key Points:

• Senator Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan addresses the Supreme Court ruling, articulating public fears about privacy and data misuse.
• She shares insights from a recent town hall, revealing that constituents are predominantly worried about practical impacts like healthcare, food prices, and financial security rather than high-profile political feuds.
• Slotkin emphasizes the necessity of addressing these immediate concerns to alleviate public anxiety.

Notable Quotes:

• Alyssa Slotkin ([17:29]): "What is going to happen with health care, with like, food, you know, the price of food... it's just for the average person, they don't have the total understanding of what is even possible to use with that data."
• Slotkin ([18:12]): "It's embarrassing for us as a country to have these two very powerful men feuding over Twitter... It diminishes us, it embarrasses us, and then could actually have real national security implications."

Discussion Highlights: Slotkin highlights the disconnect between high-level political disputes and the everyday concerns of her constituents. She stresses that while the DOGE data access issue is critical, the immediate fears of losing healthcare coverage and facing financial instability take precedence for most Americans. Additionally, she critiques the public feud between Trump and Musk, pointing out its detrimental effects on America's global standing and internal stability.

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Kilmar Obrego Garcia Case: Legal and Ethical Concerns

Key Points:

• Kilmar Obrego Garcia has been returned to the United States to face federal charges of human trafficking, despite previous Supreme Court orders deeming his removal to El Salvador illegal.
• Critics argue that the timing and nature of the charges are politically motivated, especially considering Garcia’s prior legal status and the sudden indictment following his return.

Notable Quotes:

• Kilmar Abrego Garcia ([29:21]): "We just want them to get a fair trial... It does appear that we're sort of in an upside down world where, you know, they first send you to a prison with life sentence and then bring you back for a trial."
• Jen Psaki ([31:02]): "The former head of the criminal division of that U.S. attorney's office resigned on the same day that the grand jury was impaneled, sort of implying that he wasn't willing to put his name on that."

Discussion Highlights: Psaki presents a critical view of the Garcia case, questioning the integrity of the legal process and the motivations behind the timing of the charges. The episode features comments from Chris Newman, legal director of the National Day Labor Organizing Network, and Kilmar himself, who express frustration over the lack of due process and transparency. The narrative suggests potential political maneuvering aimed at deflecting from the administration’s own controversies.

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Feud Between Donald Trump and Elon Musk: Political Ramifications

Key Points:

• The public feud between Trump and Musk has created significant turmoil within the Republican Party and has been leveraged by Democrats to highlight disarray and capitalize on internal conflicts.
• Psaki explores various theories about the nature and purpose of the feud, suggesting it may involve strategic political tactics rather than a straightforward personal conflict.

Notable Quotes:

• Jen Psaki ([33:00]): "I think it's just my theory, but I've recently been pretty right about a lot of things, so I'm just gonna roll with it. I think Trump might be working in tandem with Elon here to tank his own bill in a 4D chess move."
• Melanie Stansberry ([35:57]): "I think, you know, that's where the American people are right now."

Discussion Highlights: The episode delves into the speculative dynamics between Trump and Musk, considering whether their feud is a calculated move affecting legislative processes and public perception. Psaki notes the strategic opportunities Democrats have seized to criticize the Republican leadership, citing aggressive actions like sending formal letters to government officials and highlighting the internal conflicts within the GOP exacerbated by the feud.

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Democratic Strategies Against Republican Disarray

Key Points:

• Democratic leaders, including Congresswoman Melanie Stansberry and candidate Kat Abu Ghazala, discuss how to leverage the Republican Party's internal conflicts to advance their agendas.
• Emphasis is placed on maintaining an aggressive stance against figures like Musk and Trump to protect democratic institutions and data privacy.

Notable Quotes:

• Melanie Stansberry ([38:13]): "We've issued over 100 investigations on the administration... just because Elon Musk tweeted against a bill we think is going to be devastating for the American people, and he was right about that, doesn't make him a good person."
• Kat Abu Ghazala ([44:14]): "They're terrified of the fall of democracy, and they're terrified that politicians don't actually want to help them... They want Democrats to fight back."

Discussion Highlights: Stansberry and Abu Ghazala outline a proactive approach to countering Republican strategies, advocating for transparency and accountability, particularly concerning data privacy and AI regulation. They argue that the current political climate—marked by high-profile disputes and legislative threats—provides an opportune moment for Democrats to position themselves as defenders of democracy and protectors of citizens' personal data.

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Conclusion

Jen Psaki wraps up the episode by highlighting the interconnectedness of these issues—how Supreme Court decisions on data access, high-profile legal cases, and political feuds collectively shape national discourse and policy. The discussions underscore the urgency of addressing data privacy concerns, ensuring fair legal processes, and navigating the volatile interplay between political figures and private entities.

Final Notable Quote:

• Jen Psaki ([46:32]): "We have got a lot to say, so join our group, Chat, come to Life, follow and listen to Vibe Check wherever you get your podcasts."

Takeaway: This episode serves as a critical examination of the interplay between legal decisions, political theatrics, and the safeguarding of personal data. Psaki effectively brings to light the multifaceted risks posed by granting expansive access to sensitive information and the broader implications for American democracy and national security.

Transcript

[Jen Psaki]

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[Alyssa Slotkin]

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[Jen Psaki]

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Kilmar Obrego is back in the United States to face criminal charges in a U.S. court. The administration filed an indictment of Abrego Garcia under seal more than two weeks ago, but they have just decided to release it tonight. Gee, I wonder why. We're going to talk a lot more about that later in the show with the attorney representing his wife and family. But we also have some other breaking news to get to tonight out of the Supreme Court that could have impacts on everyone because late today in the decision split along ideological lines, the justices granted Elon Musk's DOGE team access to the highly sensitive Social Security records of every American. As the case moves forward, the court also handed DOGE a second victory by saying that DOGE does not have to turn over its internal records to a government watchdog group, which, by the way, is completely bananas and as crazy as it sounds and alarming. And we're going to talk about that. The three liberal justices dissented in both decisions. And in the matter of whether DOGE staffers could access Social Security data, Justice Kentaji Brown Jackson wrote an absolutely blistering dissent and I wanted to read some of it to you. Here's part of what she said. Quote Once again, this court dons its emergency responder gear rushes to the scene and uses its equitable power to fan the flames rather than extinguish them. She went on to accuse her conservative fellow justices of giving unfettered data access to Doge despite its failure to show any need or any interest in complying with existing privacy safeguards. And she also accuses them of jettisoning careful judicial decision making and creating grave privacy risks for millions of Americans in the process. And I hate to say this, but she is completely right. I mean, this Social Security News may seem like a dry story about access to data, but it is a huge freaking deal and will continue to be because Social Security numbers are the key to accessing just about every facet of life in America, from your bank account to your job to your actual Social Security check. And there are other reasons to be concerned about this too. Like, for example, who exactly will be getting access to this data? I mean, you may remember the name Marco Olaz. He's the Doge staffer, you can see him right there on the screen. That was fired for posting extremely racist ideas on social media, including saying he was, quote, racist before it was cool. Yes, everyone in 2025 someone is posting that. And that, quote, you could not pay him to marry outside of his ethnicity. Well, the Trump administration, inexplicably, even after knowing about all of that, really rehired this guy Marco Olaz in February and in March, Wired reported that he was one of the Doge operatives working inside the Social Security Administration. So now he is one of the Doge bros who could soon be rifling around in all of our Social Security data. Another Doge staffer inside the Social Security Administration is this guy, Luke Ferrator, the 20something Doge staffer who was an intern at Elon Musk's space company just two years ago. Two years ago, everybody. Presumably, he will also have access to your Social Security data. Which brings me to the most concerning thing about this ruling, which is what all of this means in the context of the other big story we have been following all week, the fallout from the volcanic breakup of Elon Musk and Donald Trump. For what it's worth, Trump and Musk have continued their bizarre, crazy, off the rails view today with Trump calling multiple reporters to tell them how he is unbothered by all of this. That really tells people you're unbothered, doesn't it? When you call them and say I'm totally unbothered while simultaneously getting in more digs on Elon Musk at the same time. So I guess he's on the phone and he's posting at the same time. Something like that. All of this since his breakup exploded. The breakup exploded yesterday. So just since then, Trump has talked on the phone to reporters Dana Bash, Brett Baier, Dasha Burns, Jonathan Karl and Bob Costa. And honestly, looking at this list and it kind of seems like he just went through his contacts alphabetically from B to C and maybe misspelled Jonathan Karl's last name in his contacts. I think it's entirely possible, but who knows? But despite Trump and Musk's blow up, this ruling tonight makes clear that we are still living with the consequences of Musk's time in the administration. And we could be for some time, which is why we need to keep focusing on it and talking about it. I mean, remember, Elon Musk is a man with a vendetta, even more so now, a man in open warfare with the President of the United States. And now his Doge staff has obtained access to the most sensitive personal data of millions of Americans. I mean, when that 24 year old former SpaceX intern is combing through the sensitive data, which he may be now, maybe next week, who does he think he's working for? The federal government or his old boss, Elon Musk? I honestly don't know the answer to that question. And that is a very frightening place to be. Here's another question. What protections do we have that this data is not going to wind up being fed into Elon Musk's AI program? I mean, that's a real concern that one former government official testified about in this case, saying, quote, if Social Security data has been integrated into an AI tool owned by Elon Musk, this would create an unfair advantage and also pose significant privacy and security risks for the American public. You think very much it will. The truth is that Elon Musk and his companies were already significantly enmeshed in the federal government before Trump took over. Now, Trump has given Musk and his minions extraordinary new access to even broader swaths of the government. And as their feud escalates, Musk may have fewer and fewer reasons to tread carefully at all. The New Yorker's run in Pharaoh has been covering the problematic relationship, that's one way of putting it, between Musk's business empire and our federal government for years, I mean, back in 2023, long before Musk had even endorsed Trump, Ronan Farrow published a detailed report on this very topic. And he's been pushing the public to view Musk's rise through that exact lens ever since.

[Ronan Farrow]

In My view, the real story here isn't just about Musk. It's about a model of power that's facilitated his rise and how public institutions are increasingly being replaced by private individuals operating without accountability. It's about why we've built a where someone like him effectively substitutes for the state without the checks that generally come with public power.

[Jen Psaki]

Joining me now is Ronan Farrow. He's an investigative reporter for the New Yorker. He's reported extensively on Elon Musk's rise to power. He's also reported extensively about how data can be weaponized against American citizens. Ronan, I reread your 2023 piece this morning, and there is so much in there that it includes warning signs, it includes really a better understanding that I think is important for almost anybody trying to digest this moment. I want to talk to you all about that, but I also wanted to start by asking you about this Supreme Court ruling that happened just this afternoon. It's going to allow Doge unfettered access to data at the Social Security Administration. As I mentioned, you've also done a lot of reporting on the weaponization of data. Where does your mind go first on what that means?

[Ronan Farrow]

Well, you make exactly the right point. Data can be weaponized. There is a reason why privacy law exists, why this is a really important body of cases that the Supreme Court has ruled on over the years, and why we've seen internationally when you aggregate data and you put it into hands with little oversight, and it can and very often will be abused. I mean, I've reported on that in many places around the world. But just to take an example of a current superpower, we've seen how China has centralized data in an unrestricted way and used that to create a surveillance apparatus that really has been used to target ethnic minorities. You can take this kind of personal data, which includes health details, mental health details, financial details, and you can use it to target people, to come after people, to categorize people, people and take action against them, deny them rights. So this is serious stuff. And that's why you see the minority in the court today really sounding alarm about this. You know, Justice Jackson saying the court has lost its way. This is something that privacy proponents are going to be talking about for a very long time. Then you come to the hands. We're putting it in Doge. This is an unproven ad hoc organization. There are still unanswered questions about its legal status. There's not a lot by way of congressional oversight or restrictions. There are a lot of questions about its staff A lot of the DOGE staff is hired under the same status Elon Musk was hired under as special government employees, basically meaning they could fast track the hiring of really young, really inexperienced people. This opens up a whole lot of risks and vulnerabilities which we can get into.

[Jen Psaki]

No question about it. We just talked about some of that. I mean, and one of the goals of DOGE has always been to scoop up data. I mean, they haven't made any secret of that. I spoke with some someone recently from thewho used to work in the IRS who said someone from Doge told her in a meeting that data is the mission, that getting data is the mission. I mean, you're an excellent investigative reporter. You've mentioned some of the things that you want more information on. But what are you going to be watching or what are some of the questions that you think people should be asking about this access and what they could be doing with it?

[Ronan Farrow]

The point you made that data is the mission is a really important one for all of us to sit with just as citizens concerned about all of our safety and freedom. Silicon Valley has showed us that time and time again they are on a mission to aggregate data about human beings in order to manipulate and monetize human behavior. We are coming to a reckoning about how social media platforms did that. We are still to come to a reckoning about how AI companies will do that. Elon Musk and his stake and role in DOGE connects directly to Elon Musk's stake and role in GROK through his company xai. There is evidence. We don't have a lot of transparency on this. We don't have all the answers. But there is evidence that he is feeding a lot of this sensitive data into his own AI products, using them to train his own AI products. We don't know how much of that data may be exiting with him, may show up in his systems in years to come, which are systems that accord to his private interests, which are very different from the interests of the American people.

[Jen Psaki]

No question about it. And all those questions about where that data could be and go with some of these DOEZ officials still in the government is a huge, huge, huge one. You did I mentioned I reread this extensive profile. Everybody on our team reread it today. Aboutit's basically about how entangled Musk had become at that point in time with the national security apparatus of the United States, in some ways how powerful he had become. I mean, obviously that entanglement has only grown deeper in many, many ways, I mean. And yesterday, Musk threatened to decommission the spacecraft that brought back two stranded astronauts. Unclear where that sits at this point, but that was a threat. Knowing and following and investigating and reporting on him as much as you have. If he really wanted to make things painful for Trump and really more importantly for the American people, given all of his companies and entanglements, what else could he do?

[Ronan Farrow]

There is a bigger picture here, which is part of what I was writing about, of waning government power and of rising private power. There are a lot of economic and political factors that have led up to this point, but we are in a state now where there are key services that once would have been a guarantee from the state that are in the hands of private, unaccountable billionaires and private, unaccountable companies that they run. You mentioned the threat to decommission the Dragon Craft. That is the only way we have to ferry astronauts from the International Space Station back to Earth. There is literally a possibility that if he were to actually do that, and it does seem like someone tweeted at him and said, maybe not, and he said, okay, okay, fine, I won't. But this is the threshold for decision making about something that could literally leave human beings stranded and facing death. And we haven't built in redundancy. And what government officials were telling me even a couple of years ago was, hey, we're alarmed because there. There is an erratic person who has his own complicated international alliances and business interests, who is controlling key functionality that the American people depend on, and that's not isolated. To Elon Musk, we are seeing that across the board. We are seeing companies like Palantir run by another billionaire, Musk donor, Peter Thiel, play a role in aggregating and centralizing data across the US Government. Again, being given unprecedented access and power to tools that really can be used to target and harm people.

[Jen Psaki]

Ronan Farrow, I hope you will come back and talk with me about Palantir and Peter Thiel and all of that, because data and their access to data and all of these billionaires is such an important story to follow right now, and few people know it as well as you. Thank you so much for joining me tonight. I really appreciate it.

[Ronan Farrow]

It's pivotal. Thanks for talking about it, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay. Senator Alyssa Slotkin is standing by. Clearly, there's no shorter shortage of breaking news to ask her about. From Donald Trump and Elon Musk to the Supreme Court granting Doge access to your Social Security data. And she also held a town hall tonight. We're back in 90 seconds.

[Ronan Farrow]

Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm poet Saeed Jones. And I'm producer Zach Stafford. And we are the hosts of a podcast called VibeCheck. On Vibe Check, we talk about everything.

[Ronan Farrow]

News, culture and entertainment and how it all feels.

[Jen Psaki]

That's right, we talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Yes, indeed, and it doesn't stop there.

[Jen Psaki]

We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat, come to.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Life, follow and listen to Vibe Check.

[Jen Psaki]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

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[Jen Psaki]

Joining me now, as promised, is Senator Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan Center. Slotkin's great. Great to see you. I know you held a town hall meeting in Lansing, Michigan. I'm sure lots of things on the on the minds of people in your state. I wanted to start and maybe this was on their minds. I don't know if it broke through yet, but I wanted to start by asking you about the emergency ruling by the Supreme Court allowing DOGE to get access to sensitive personal data at the Social Security Administration. I find this incredibly alarming, but I want to know what your reaction is and what concerns you about it.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Yeah, I mean, I think for me we've watched as they've gone into all the different agencies and departments and at different levels tried to get all this information. It was very upsetting to see it happen, you know, get a court and sort of endorsement about it. And your last guest, I mean, laid it out better than I could, was just, what are they going to do with the data? Your personal information, your medical records, your tax information, your family situation? I think it's just for the average person, they don't have. Have the total understanding of what is even possible to use with that data. So I think it just gives people the heebie jeebies. And obviously, with everything going on with Musk, this is just a strange time to be thinking about giving more data over to the entity he was running.

[Jen Psaki]

No question about it. And heebie jeebies is a good way of describing it. I'm going to use that. You look at, you know, I think right now, it's, of course, fun and sometimes funny to talk about this feud, but there are real implications. And one of them that I think you can speak to better than almost anyone is the national security lens. I mean, there have been sort of some strange reactions in my view. I mean, Medvedev of Russia was joking about intervening in the feud. There was a lot of response from Russia. What do you. How do you think about the national security implications? I mean, Musk has been using the State Department to get more contracts. Does it impact that? Is the Russia reaction weird? What do you think?

[Alyssa Slotkin]

I mean, I think it's just embarrassing for us as a country to have these two very powerful men feuding over Twitter. I mean, so the whole world is basically like, popping the popcorn and just watching, just kind of in shock that this is happening. But I think the implications are serious. First of all, whether you're an adversary or a friend, you're looking at this kind of breakup and saying, like, is this for real? Is this like the serious American government that I kind of once dealt with and just questioning our stability, frankly. Right. I mean, what does it say when a president is bothering to get in a feud like this online? It just is. It doesn't make our enemies and our friends take us seriously. Number two, who knows, like, with your last segment, what programs are going to be pulled? What is the president going to do punitively to cut contracts, things that maybe our military depends on or other. Other states depend on. What is Musk going to do to try and get back at the president? You know, we are only seeing the visible part, but I think the stuff behind the scenes, there's a lot of national security implications. And then I just, you know, if you're sitting in some capitol somewhere trying to decide how to engage the United States, you look at what's happening right now. And you say, like, I just can't predict what the most powerful country in the world is going to do. Like, I just don't know, are they going to love it, are they going to hate it? Are they going to turn against me? So it does not nothing good for role as a global leader. It diminishes us, it embarrasses us, and then could actually have real national security implications.

[Jen Psaki]

No question. There's such a barrage of news. I feel like every day, including Fridays, you just held the town hall with constituents in Lansing, Michigan. What came up there? I mean, what is most on their mind? Sometimes it's aligned with what's happening in D.C. and oftentimes it's not.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

I mean, I got to tell you this, most of the people there were worried about what's going to happen with health care, with like, food, you know, the price of food, obviously, but SNAP and SNAP benefits. We had a woman get up and say, you know, I have a family member that I'm responsible for. She's on Medicaid, she's on snap. What exactly is going to happen? And so I think it's kind of sinking in for people that with the big beautiful bill, it doesn't matter who you are, if this bill goes through, you're either going to be at risk of losing your health insurance or, or the price of your health insurance is going to go up. And I don't know a single American who thinks that we're paying too little for our health insurance. And I think that was what was sinking in for the audience. That was the nature of their questions. And they want to know, are we going to be okay? I mean, every question sort of had this sort of color to it. Just like, are we going to get through this? How are we? Especially in a place like Michigan where we're Democrats and Republicans, living in the same neighborhood in the same House. How are we going to get through this? Like, what's happening? What's the light through the tunnel? And I think you feel like people are fearful and no one wants our citizens to feel fearful of government decisions. So it wasn't, frankly, I didn't get a Musk Trump question. It was really, it's not like the online conversation. It's like, what's going to happen to my pocketbook, my health care, my kids.

[Jen Psaki]

Such an important reminder. Millions of people could lose health care access if this bill moves forward. It's going through the Senate next. A lot of hopes in the Republican colleagues. We'll see what happens there. But so important to hear what people are actually talking about. Senator Alyssa Slotkin, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. And coming up, we're going to turn to the other big breaking news of the night. Kilmar Obrega Garcia has been returned to the United States as the Trump administration files new charges against him. The attorney who represents his family joins me next.

[Ronan Farrow]

Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm Poet Saeed Jones. And I'm producer Zach Stafford.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

And we are the hosts of a.

[Jen Psaki]

Podcast called Vibe Check. On Vibe Check, we talk about everything.

[Ronan Farrow]

News, culture and entertainment and how it all feels.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

That's right, we talk about any and.

[Jen Psaki]

Everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Yes, indeed.

[Jen Psaki]

And it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat, come to.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Life, follow and listen to Vibe Check.

[Jen Psaki]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

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[Jen Psaki]

We're here today to announce a major update in an important case. Abrego Garcia has landed in the United States. For months now, people around the country have waited to hear the Trump administration say those words. I mean, it has been 86 days, believe it or not, since Camaro Abrego Garcia was arrested by ICE while driving his 5 year old autistic son home from his grandmother's house. It has been 83 days since the Trump administration sent Abrego Garcia to a notorious prison in El Salvador due to what they later admitted in court was an administrative error. 82 days ago, Kilmara Garcia's wife spotted her husband among the men in a video tweeted out by the President of el Salvador. No U.S. official notified her that her husband had been flown out of the country and put in an El Salvadoran maximum security prison. She only knew for sure he was there when she spotted him in this video. At the point when Mr. Abrego Garcia was taken to this notoriously brutal prison, he had never been investigated for any crime, let alone charged, or the Trump administration simply accused him of being a member of the gang ms.13 without real proof. When asked to justify this case, President Trump himself waved around an obviously doctored photo of Mr. Abrego Garcia, claiming that was his proof that he was in a gang. The reality is, when the Trump administration sent Abrego Garcia to El Salvador, they did not actually have any reason for doing so, because in 2019, an immigration judge granted him a legal status that let him live and work in the country legally. 57 days ago, the Supreme Court ruled without dissent, by the way, that Abrego Garcia's removal to El Salvador was in fact illegal. And the court ordered the Trump administration to facilitate his return. But the Trump administration wouldn't do it. They insisted that was because he was in El Salvador. The issue was diplomatic, they said, and not something they could control. They insisted repeatedly there was no way to bring him back, that it was completely outside of their control. 29 days ago, this was the stance of Trump's Homeland Security Secretary.

[Chris Newman]

There is no scenario where Abrego Garcia will be in the United States again.

[Jen Psaki]

Today. That changed today. The Trump administration did bring Abrego Garcia back, but they didn't do it to comply with the Supreme Court's orders. Today, they brought him back to the United States to criminally charge him with human trafficking. The allegations the Justice Department laid out against Abrego Garcia today are incredibly serious, but they are also just allegations. He could have done all of these things. They allege he also could be completely innocent. That is why in this country, you are supposed to have due process before you are punished for a crime or you are supposed to have your day in court. You are supposed to be tried and convicted if you are guilty by a jury of your peers. Kilmar Abrego Garcia was sent to prison in El Salvador without any of that. And ABC News reports tonight that the allegations Abrego Garcia was charged with today stem from an investigation that started in April, which, by the way, is the month after the Trump administration sent him to El Salvador. This is what American justice looks like. That was the attorney general of the United States of America today saying that justice in this country means getting sent to prison and and then investigated, sent to a foreign prison for months and then charged with a crime. That is what the Trump administration thinks justice looks like, which tells you a whole lot. Joining me now is Chris Newman, legal director of the National Day Labor Organizing Network. He is also representing the family of Kilmar Obrega. Garcia. Thank you so much for being here. I'm sure this has been a whirlwind of a day for the family. So let me just ask you first, have you spoken with Mr. Abrego Garcia? Have you been in touch with his wife and family, and how are they doing?

[Kilmar Abrego Garcia]

Well, I've spoken to Jennifer, Kilmar's wife, and, you know, first and foremost, they're relieved just to know that Kilmar is alive. The fact is, we haven't heard from him since April 17, when Senator Van Hollen was able to get proof of life. When we were down there in El Salvador, we had tried to make sure that he was alive, to make sure that his health was being cared for and also to make sure that he's able to talk to his wife and to his counsel. So we've now achieved two out of the three goals. And I think in that sense, I can say that she's relieved, but there's no words to describe what she's been through these last couple of months.

[Jen Psaki]

No question. He now faces, and I outlined this a little bit, two counts of federal human smuggling charges which were filed today, the allegation being that he was in involved in a conspiracy spanning nine years during which he transported thousands of undocumented migrants from Texas to other parts of the U.S. i mean, those are incredibly serious allegations. What does the family want to know, want people to know about those allegations?

[Kilmar Abrego Garcia]

Well, we just want them to get a fair trial. Up until now, the Trump administration has been litigating this case on the Sean Hannity show on Fox News from the lectern from where you used to work with an unprecedented campaign of defamation, calling him all kinds of names. And all we've asked for was for Kilmar to be able to present his own defense of himself. And so it's clear he hasn't been getting a fair trial in the court of public opinion yet. But now he'll soon get his day in court. And just like Senator Von Hollen has said, the administration will have to put up or shut up in court. I do think it's interesting to note that. But the administration has called him every bad name in the book. They've called him a terrorist. They've called him a criminal mastermind, a gang member. And this is the charge that they land on, a charge that he was, you know, investigated for when he was pulled over and released for as well. So it does appear that, like, we're sort of in an upside down world where, you know, they first send you to a prison with life sentence and then bring you back for a trial. And despite what the attorney general says about what justice looks like, she doesn't get to make that call.

[Jen Psaki]

No. No, she doesn't. I want to ask you about the timing. There's a couple of timing things here that are very questionable and concerning. One is that the investigation started, according to a report by ABC News, long after he had been sent to El Salvador. And the other is that this had been this indictment wasis is about two weeks old, as I understand it, and they just released it today. I just asked you two timing questions, but tell me what your reaction is to both of those.

[Kilmar Abrego Garcia]

Well, I'll add a third timing element, which is that the former head of the criminal division of that U.S. attorney's office resigned on the same day that the grand jury was impaneled, sort of implying that he wasn't willing to put his name on that.

[Jen Psaki]

What do you know about that? Or why he resigned?

[Kilmar Abrego Garcia]

Boy, I wish we knew more. The timing is suspicious, just like these allegations. And I do think, again, it questions the credibility of the charges that were leveled against him today. The other timing point is one where, you know, this kind of thing happens on the day after Trump has a bad press day. And I know my own governor in California got in trouble for saying, you know, that the Kilmar case was a distraction. I think what he meant to say was that Trump tries to distract from his own failures as a president by punching down and scapegoating immigrants. So to me, it's no shock that the flight back today occurs after what probably was the single worst press day of the Trump presidency. He tries to shift the attention, and then also he tries to sort of castigate and criminalize others in order to hide his own criminality.

[Jen Psaki]

Chris Newman, I'm so grateful you were able to join us and help us make sense of some of the news today. Thank you so much for being here.

[Kilmar Abrego Garcia]

It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

[Jen Psaki]

Coming up, as Donald Trump and Elon Musk Continue to go after each other a lot. And aggressively. Republican brains are kind of breaking, it seems. And Democrats are having fun, but they're also seeing an opening. We're going to talk about that. We'll be right back. The drama filled fallout this week between Donald Trump and Elon Musk seems to be melting the brains of some in Magaland right now. I mean, they can't, I guess, seem to imagine it's real. So instead of that, some have come up with some pretty wackadoo explanations of what is actually happening. I have a theory, though, and this.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Is just my theory, but I've recently.

[Jen Psaki]

Been pretty right about a lot of things, so I'm just gonna roll with it. I think Trump might be working in tandem with Elon here to tank his own bill in a 4D chess move. Just a theory does the old 4D chess move here. I see. Now, to be fair, that was on Wednesday. So that was. They had some Musk had some negative tweets, but it was before everything completely went bananas and nuclear yesterday. But even the next day, that same News Max host was still in some form of denial and making some pretty out there excuses. Turns out my prediction yesterday was a little bit off. I'll be honest, this really hurts my soul. Okay, I'm not even gonna take a side here.

[Ronan Farrow]

These two were doing awesome things together.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm inclined to believe that there's a bunch of people in the middle that have muddied these waters, and it's not necessarily between Trump and Elon because there's no way these two would just randomly blow up like this. Or maybe they would, but it's hurting that guy's soul, so remember that. I mean, that anchor wasn't alone, though, with that kind of thinking. Disgraced right wing pundit Dinesh d' Souza floated the idea that the whole feud could be some sort of perverse scheme to force the release of the Epstein files. He speculated that Trump and Elon might soon break out the champagne. And at the same time, even more mainstream right wing outlets like Fox News had takes like this. These guys are like roommates.

[Chris Newman]

They were living in close quarters for.

[Jen Psaki]

Like the first six months of the year.

[Kilmar Abrego Garcia]

They're just blowing off steam.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

The issue is donor maintenance.

[Kilmar Abrego Garcia]

This guy's the mega donor.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

So you don't want him accusing you of being a pedophile and you don't.

[Jen Psaki]

Want him calling for your impeachment. I hope he doesn't mean that, but maybe they can patch things up. I mean, Vance called Trump Hitler and.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

He'S on the ticket.

[Jen Psaki]

The old Vance model could give everybody hope here, I guess. Okay, clearly there's a lot of takes out there. But it could also be, and this is just my theory, that Trump and Musk are two egomaniacs publicly feuding about how, and in part about how an enormous budget bill should best benefit their personal interests. Who's to say? Look, the spectacle of this drama between two billionaires, the richest man in the world and the most powerful man in the world, can feel a bit like a sideshow. But it is understandably hard to ignore. And there are, there's a legitimate question about how those opposing Trump and Musk can capitalize on this feud. And I will say Democrats did have more fun yesterday on a range of social media platforms than I think they've had in a long time. I mean, for instance, Minnesota Senator Tina Smith asked who gets custody of J.D. vance in the divorce, Washington Senator Patty Murray said, when I first got into politics, men would always tell me that women were too emotional to lead. Then there was Congresswoman Melanie Stansberry of New Mexico, who delivered this message to Trump and Musk from the House floor.

[Melanie Stansberry]

I know that, you know, both you guys are having a hard time, but I just have to say, for the sake of democracy, for the sake of the American people, and frankly, for the global security and safety of people all over the planet, y' all need to cut this drama out. I mean, we need to take care of our people. So I'm with Musk on this one. I don't mean to take sides, Mr. President, but I'm gonna say it. Kill the bill.

[Jen Psaki]

So what can Democrats do now to take advantage of all the feuding and disarray in the Republican Party? Congresswoman Sansberry, along with Democratic candidate Kat Abu Ghazala, joins me next to talk about all of it. After Elon Musk accused Donald Trump of being involved with Jeffrey Epstein yesterday. That was just yesterday. Everyone Democrats did something today. Democrats on the House Oversight Committee sent a letter to Attorney General Pam Bondi and FBI Director Kash Patel. They wrote, we write with profound alarm at allegations that files relating to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein have not been declassified and released to the American public because they personally implicate President Trump. We ask that you immediately clarify whether this allegation is true and respond to this letter with the requested information and documentation. No response so far, as you might expect. But this type of pressure is not something you see every day from Democrats. And if anything, it's hard to say. It's not Aggressive. It's definitely aggressive. Joining me now is a member of the House Oversight Committee, Democratic Congresswoman Melanie Stansberry. Also with us is someone trying to join Democrats in Congress, a candidate for Congress in Illinois, Kat Abu Ghazala. It's great to see you both. This is such the perfect way to end our show on a Friday. We've already been chatting about all of the things. Let me start with you, Congresswoman. Tell me why you and your colleagues decided to send that letter. As I noted, no one can suggest that's not aggressive. This was teed up by Elon Musk, of all people. I assume you haven't heard back yet, but tell me more about the choice.

[Melanie Stansberry]

Well, I certainly don't want to take credit for it. I know my colleagues on the Oversight Committee were leading on that particular letter. But we've issued over 100 investigations on the administration. And, you know, we were talking a little bit right before we started here. You know, I think part of why, for example, I went to the floor yesterday and read the tweets into the Congressional Record wasn't just because it was delicious tea to spill on the House floor, which it was, but also because it's very incriminating. Right. Both of them are going back and forth accusing each other on public media of what may be crimes, as far as we know. And so I thought it was important to put that in the record. And I know, you know, many of my colleagues have been opening many different investigations on Elon Musk. And I think one of the things that's really important in this moment, and I know we're going to get into this, is like, just because Elon Musk tweeted against a bill we think is going to be devastating for the American people, and he was right about that, doesn't make him a good person. It doesn't make him.

[Jen Psaki]

Or that he's rooting for Democrats.

[Melanie Stansberry]

Right, exactly. Or that he didn't break the law and he didn't shatter lives and allow children to starve. Like, this dude is not okay, and we're gonna hold him accountable.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, that's an interesting. Because nobody really knows where Elon Musk is at this point politically, who knows he's not with Trump doesn't mean he's not aligned with a lot of the things. You had quite a moment last night in a fight with Scott Jennings about this where you made clear you don't think Democrats should take money from Elon Musk, even if he. And I don't want to put words in your Mouth, you can explain yourself. Even if he kind of comes out tomorrow and says, you know, I made a lot of mistakes, I'm a different person. I'm a Democrat now. Yeah.

[Chris Newman]

I mean, I think you have this moment where we're thinking, like, you know, we want to reach other voters and we want to reach people, especially as Trump is hurting so many people across the political spectrum. Elon Musk has hurt millions of millions of people just in the first short five months of this administration. I mean, in the ninth District in Illinois, we have had veterans that are worried about their access to health care at the va, we have educators that are terrified about their visa status, that are terrified about their funding. Northwestern has lost $700 million of funding because of the Trump administration and Elon Musk encouraging it. And. And the idea, even the mention that he could be welcomed back into the fold, as if he was ever in there, as if he didn't exploit the labor of his own workers, as if he didn't. Wasn't a union buster, is laughable. This guy isn't our friend. He's now not Trump's friend, at least for the time being. I wouldn't be surprised if he finds a way back in there, but he needs to be held accountable, and I'm glad that we have people in Congress that want to do that.

[Melanie Stansberry]

As one of my girlfriends said back home, I texted them to get their hot take. One of my best friends, yeah, you got it right. One of my best girlfriends said, we need to cancel his ass. So I think, you know, that's where the American people are right now.

[Jen Psaki]

There are T shirts maybe being made up somewhere that maybe say that maybe they're for your campaign.

[Melanie Stansberry]

There you go.

[Jen Psaki]

So tell me. I mean, part of the reason I wanted to talk to both of you, one, you're both really interesting players in the Democratic Party, but also that you're both not afraid to be aggressive. A lot of people say they don't see that. I think we see that in a lot of places. You spent a lot of time in Media Matters, which is very aggressive in a lot of ways. Are there things that you would like to see Democrats in Washington doing right now, present company excluded, that they're not doing around, whether it's around Elon Musk or the bill or whatever it may be.

[Chris Newman]

Yeah, I mean, what the congresswoman right next to me did is amazing. We need to be standing up this idea that we don't want to alienate people or we need to be worried about other Democrats, job security or that were from the same playbook that's existed since before Trump. That playbook is gone. And we need to acknowledge that. And that's part of the reason that we're here in the first place. And authoritarianism. Every authoritarian movement has thrived when the opposition stands back. I mean, anyone that has taken a middle school history class knows appeasement doesn't work. And my background is fighting the far right. My background is knowing who these people are, what they can do, what they want to do, and how to beat them. And I think we need more people that are literally in our leadership of what this current moment needs, of technology, of the current authoritarian movement that is in America right now, and not just hoping that the status quo stays the same, because we need a vision beyond that, too.

[Jen Psaki]

One of the areas, I think, where Musk has done the most damage, and Trump, too. I mean, you spent a lot of time. We've talked about Doge before. I mean, there was a ruling today in the Supreme Court allowing these Doge boys unfettered access to Social Security data. How do you keep the drumbeat and the focus on that without Musk in government anymore and with this feud?

[Melanie Stansberry]

Well, I mean, first of all, I think the hacking and stealing of data is one of the things that is very uniting across ideological spectrums. I mean, I did 19 town halls across New Mexico, and it is the number one thing that people are most.

[Jen Psaki]

Freaked out about, whether their data.

[Melanie Stansberry]

Yeah, their personal data was stolen. And especially over the last couple of weeks since we saw they put it in the reconciliation bill, this language that would basically strip state and local authority to be able to enforce AI and data privacy laws for the next 10 years. And we're hearing reports that Trump is contracting with Palantir, which is, you know, Peter Thiel's AI company, to build this database. They want to use it for surveillance and enforcement of dhs. People are really freaked out about the data stuff right now. And, you know, just even preparing tonight, I mean, I'm shocked. I really can't believe the Supreme Court allowed that case to basically sit until something else happens.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. What are you hearing? We only have about a minute left. I hope you guys will come back and talk to me again when you were out there. Cuz you're campaigning a lot, you're talking to people all the time. What are you hearing most from them about what they're most concerned about? About the damage of the Trump administration and Elon Musk, too.

[Chris Newman]

Yeah. They're terrified of the fall of democracy, and they're terrified that politicians don't actually want to help them, that it's the same old, same old. I mean, my campaign, we're focused on spending our money on, like, mutual aid, reaching out to people, making things accessible. It like this is something we see time and time again where people are let down. And that's why we have thousands of people checking out our platform, coming to events. Our website is kat4illinois.com with a K. And it's because they feel disenfranchised and Trump is only exacerbating that and they want Democrats to fight back.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you both for bringing the energy to 9.50pm it was great talking to both of you. No one can say that you're not aggressive in trying to defend the people that you're trying to represent and that you represent. Thank you both so much. Coming up, I had a little bit of a bet with the great, fabulous Kara Swisher about how long Elon Musk would last in Washington. I'll show you who won when we come back. In the interest of full disclosure, I should admit that I may stand to financially profit from the rift between Elon Musk and Donald Trump. And let me just explain myself here. A couple of months ago, I interviewed Kara Swisher, one of my favorite podcasters in humans and one of the preeminent chroniclers of the tech world in Silicon Valley. Moguls like Musk, she wrote an excellent book about it. We ended our conversation with a little breakup bet.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

We don't know. Will Elon be here next year?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, that's a question.

[Melanie Stansberry]

I don't know.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

What do you think?

[Jen Psaki]

No. I say yes. Okay, Kara Swisher, we're going to put $5 on it. Okay? So if I'm not mistaken, I should have $5 coming my way sometime soon. Kara, if you're out there, I take cash, Venmo, PayPal, coffee, Bitcoin, whatever's easiest for you. That does it for me tonight.

[Ronan Farrow]

Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm poet Saeed Jones. And I'm producer Zack Stafford.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

And we are the hosts of a.

[Jen Psaki]

Podcast called Vibe Check. On Vibecheck, we talk about everything, news.

[Ronan Farrow]

Culture and entertainment and how it all feels.

[Jen Psaki]

That's right. We talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Yes, indeed.

[Jen Psaki]

And it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, Chat, come to.

[Alyssa Slotkin]

Life, follow and listen to Vibe Check.

[Jen Psaki]

Wherever you get your podcasts.