← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
'A slap in the face': Family members rage at Trump defenders hijacking Epstein victim's remarks
00:40:06
Donald Trump and his defenders have responded to the newly released tranche of Jeffrey Epstein documents by seeking to discredit any references to Trump that they contain, including by exposing the redacted name of Epstein victim Virginia Roberts Giuffre and treating her cherry-picked remarks as if they exonerate Trump of any wrongdoing. Sky and Amanda Roberts, Giuffre's brother and sister-in-law, talk with Jen Psaki about their outrage at Trump defenders trying to hijack her story for their political purposes while ignoring the crimes and the survivors seeking justice.
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- [00:00]
Jen Psaki
Think advertising on TikTok isn't for your business? Think again.
- [00:03]
Host/Interviewer
With TikTok ads, we went from 250,000 downloads to over a million downloads in less than a year. I'm Eve, I'm Anam and we're the.
- [00:10]
Sky Roberts
Co founders of Alinea.
- [00:12]
Host/Interviewer
Alinea Invest is an investing app for Gen z.
- [00:14]
Sky Roberts
We run 50 new ads per week with three variations thanks to TikTok Smart plus campaigns.
- [00:21]
Host/Interviewer
If you're not advertising on TikTok, you're missing out.
- [00:23]
Amanda Roberts
Drive more app downloads only on TikTok.
- [00:26]
Jen Psaki
Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTok ads.
- [00:31]
Host/Interviewer
Ah DSW Earth Place of the humble. Brag here. The shoes are so good, no one would ever know how little you paid if you didn't go telling everyone that is. And with never ending options for every style, mood and occasion, all at really great prices, they'll definitely give you something to brag about. So go ahead, stock up on fresh sneakers from your favorite brands or try those boots you always secretly knew you could pull off. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or@dsw.com let us surprise you. So it has been more than 24 hours since the House Oversight Committee released more than 23,000 pages, a lot of pages of documents they obtained from the estate of Jeffrey Epstein. And last night on our show, the Democratic ranking member on the House Oversight Committee, Robert Garcia, confirmed to us that the trove of documents is so massive that even his own committee staff had not been able to comb through them all yet. But now those files are public and journalists are poring over every page, not just here in the United States, but literally all over the world. And while we here in the United States have already seen reporters break lots of big stories from these documents, I actually think one of the most important revelations in these documents hasn't gotten a lot of attention in the United States quite yet, but it is a huge deal overseas. The story centers around this photograph that you can see right there on your screen, a photo that shows Epstein's fellow monster in crime, Ghislaine Maxwell, as well as then Prince Andrew, who has now of course been stripped of his title by the British monarchy. But to avoid making things very confusing, I'm just gonna keep calling him Prince Andrew. And that girl in the center with Andrew's hand around her waist is then 17 year old Virginia Giuffre, the late Epstein survivor who tragically died by suicide just this past spring. Now here's what Giuffre alleges happened that day. In her posthumous memoir, Nobody's girl. Giuffre was 17. She was staying with Epstein and Maxwell at Maxwell's home in London, just about seven months after Maxwell had first recruited her from Mar A Lago, well after Epstein had allegedly started sexually abusing Giuffre. Maxwell woke her up that morning telling her it was gonna be a special day, that she was gonna meet a prince. And when Prince Andrew arrived at Maxwell's house that evening, Maxwell asked Prince Andrew to guess giuffre's age. The 41 year old prince guessed correctly. 17 years old. Now, realizing that her mom would never forgive her if she met someone as famous as Prince Andrew and didn't pose for a picture, Giuffre got her camera and Epstein snapped the photo. Then they all went to a nightclub. Prince Andrew bought Giuffre a cocktail and danced with her. And on their way back to Maxwell's house, Maxwell told Giuffre, when we get home, you are to do for him what you do for Jeffrey. Now, I'm going to spare you the rest of the truly wretched details, but Giuffre says that she and Prince Andrew had sex that night at Epstein and Maxwell's direction. And it was the first of three such encounters which she also details in her book. Now, both Maxwell and Prince Andrew have both vehemently denied any of this ever happened. And a key part of that denial has been asserting that this photo, the infamous photo of them with a 17 year old Giuffre, is fake. What's a fake? I don't believe that. I don't believe it's real for a second. In fact, I'm sure it's not. There's never been an original. And further, there's no photograph, right? And I've only ever seen a photocopy of it. I don't believe it happened.
- [04:03]
Jen Psaki
And certainly the way as described would have been impossible.
- [04:08]
Sky Roberts
Just to clarify, so you think that.
- [04:10]
Host/Interviewer
Photo has been faked?
- [04:13]
Jen Psaki
Nobody can prove whether or not that photograph has been doctored, but I don't recollect that photograph ever being taken.
- [04:24]
Host/Interviewer
Now, in addition to just denying the story, both Andrew, Prince Andrew, that is, and Maxwell were adamant that of course the photo was faked, as you just heard them say. Even just this summer, in Maxwell's interview with Trump's personal lawyer, turned Deputy U.S. attorney Todd Blanche, she flat out denied it. When Maxwell was asked about this particular photo that I've been showing you, she said, quote, I believe it's literally a fake photo that was just a couple months ago. But now, thanks to the trove of 23,000 documents from the Epstein estate that the House Oversight Committee released yesterday, we have this. On July 1st of 2011, just months after this photo was first published in the British tabloids, Epstein allegedly sent an email and in which he said, quote, yes, she was on my plane and yes, she had her picture taken with Andrew. Epstein denied, of course, everything else that took place and seemed to defend the photo by adding that many of his employees had also taken pictures with Prince Andrew. But he, the person again who allegedly took the photo, said the photo was real. Now, it should be noted that Epstein himself is not exactly a reliable or trustworthy source, to put it mildly. And MSNBC has not independently confirmed the authenticity of the emails or the allegations in them. And both Maxwell and Andrew vehemently deny anything happened. But Epstein himself, way back in 2011, saying this photo was real in an email really throws into question everything both Prince Andrew and Ghislaine Maxwell have said about the rest of that story. The fact that just months ago Maxwell told Todd Blanche that photo was fake now adds all the more reason to be skeptical that anything she told Blanche in that meeting with was true. The email is a gigantic story in the British media right now. It is an absolute scandal for understandable reason. And it is a massive piece of potentially vindicating evidence for Virginia Giuffre, who Maxwell, Epstein and Prince Andrew have all claimed for more than a decade, made everything up. Now, journalists have only had the documents the House Oversight Committee released for a little more than a day now, but Trump and the White House are already trying to discredit everything in this trove of documents. They're working overtime to do this and they are trying to use the name of an Epstein survivor to get away with it. Yesterday, the very first email that the Democrats on the House Oversight Committee released showed Epstein writing Ghislaine Maxwell to say that Trump was the, quote, dog that hasn't barked and that a victim spent hours at Epstein's house with Trump. The Democrats on the committee redacted that victim's name, as they've tried to do with the names of all of the Epstein survivors, in part to allow them to tell their own stories on their own terms if they want to. But within an hour of the release, the Republican majority on the House Oversight Committee promptly outed the victim as Virginia Giuffre, apparently doing so just so they could point to past statements of Giuffre's in which she said she had never seen Trump, she do anything wrong. So again, they're outing an Epstein survivor for political gain. And just to be clear, this was not a one off. White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt promptly did the same in a press release. And then at the White House press briefing yesterday, Levitt had the gall to again invoke Giuffre's name to defend Trump without even learning how to pronounce it. Did the President ever spend hours at Jeffrey Epstein's house with a victim? These emails prove absolutely nothing other than the fact that President Trump did nothing wrong. And this email you refer to with the name of a victim, that was unredacted now and has since been reported on in this room. So I will go ahead and say it. Virginia Guthre. It's Virginia Giuffre. Giuffre. Sorry, that's just incredibly insulting. But here's what she went on to say. Ms. Giuffrey maintained, and God rest her soul, that she maintained that there was nothing inappropriate she ever witnessed, that President Trump was always extremely professional and friendly to her. Now, again, the reason Caroline Levitt and House Republicans were invoking and have been invoking Virginia Giuffre's name is not to help tell her story or to push for releasing more documents like her family wants, but to try to cover Trump's butt. And it's not just the White House and Congress that are doing this. Trump is all over the Epstein files, and I'm wondering if they're going to release those. Are you covering that tonight? Not really.
- [08:55]
Jen Psaki
Because the woman that apparently they're talking about is the one that said he was a gentleman and never did anything wrong.
- [09:03]
Host/Interviewer
Again, co opting the story of a young woman who many survivors credit with inspiring them to tell their own stories, who is no longer here with us to keep telling hers, all for their own political gain. Joining me now are sky and Amanda Roberts. They are the brother and sister in law of the late Virginia Roberts Giuffre and advocates for justice in her memory. Whew. Looking at your face is just gonna make me make me cry, too. But this is such an important story to talk about. Sky, as I just outlined yesterday, it's okay. However you want to feel in this moment. I think everybody is with you who's watching right now. Yesterday, after these emails were released, I felt such rage, and I think so many people did. And this is why I wanted to outline and tell the story. First, Republicans on the House Oversight Committee and then the White House afterwards confirmed Virginia's name as the identity of the individual whose name was redacted. I'm just going to repeat, there's a reason why individuals names are redacted in these documents. There is a reason. And a lot of people out there, including Republicans, have said they want to protect the survivors. Diverse names. What was your reaction when you first saw that yesterday morning?
- [10:18]
Sky Roberts
What, another slap in the face from this administration. It was gut wrenching. It made us angry. What disrespect. Our sister is an American hero. She and her testimony was the reason why they were even able to take these monsters down. And from the very beginning, all they have done is try to drag her name in the Monk for redemption for our president. And it's just so disgraceful. They have had no regard for a family that is grieving a loss that they will never recover from. We will never recover from this loss. And there is a reason why names are redacted. Do you think because she's not here anymore, that her family doesn't deserve protection? That her family doesn't deserve respect? That her legacy and her name doesn't deserve honor? And sure, she may not have had a personal experience with President Trump, but he is named in those files on multiple occasions and nor are we here to sit him, sit here and accuse anyone of anything. What we are saying is if you are named under any circumstance, and it doesn't matter what party affiliation you are, you deserve to answer questions. You deserve to sit before the committee, before the American public, before the survivors and, and tell them what you know, tell them what you saw. And it is just beyond reprehensible of this White House, of the Republican Oversight Committee to do that, to violate her in that way and to violate us in that way.
- [12:13]
Host/Interviewer
I don't know, sky, how you could add to the powerful statement that your wife just made. But what do you want people to understand about what it does to families? And there are so many other survivors out there. When the names of survivors, the names of people who have been victims of Jeffrey Epstein, of Ghislaine Maxwell are released and put out there in the world like this.
- [12:41]
Amanda Roberts
Well, I think first I just, I want to start with just. I don't think my sister or any survivor. Excuse me, I'm very emotional tonight. I apologize.
- [12:54]
Host/Interviewer
You don't need to apologize.
- [12:55]
Amanda Roberts
But I don't think any survivor, including my sister, should be used as a political toy. These are sisters and mothers and daughters. Amanda mentioned. We're grieving right now. I think the world is grieving a little bit for her because she's not here to speak for herself. And so it felt very disrespectful for them to unredact her name when she's not here to speak for herself. We're of course going to stand forward and we're going to continue to fight for her and all survivors out there. Because I don't want to be very clear. If my sister was here today, she would be appalled by this administration. She would not refer to President Trump as a gentleman. He's not acknowledging survivors. Not once has he even acknowledged my sister in the sense of who she was as a hero. I mean, the reason we're even here today having this conversation, Jen, in which she should be sitting with you, not me, is because of her and so many brave survivors that came forward. And now these files are being released. And so I just think it's time to put a little respect on her name and all survivors names and treat them as heroes and stop. And just, just stop the nonsense, this political BS bullshit that just keeps coming out of his mouth, in the administration's mouth. It needs to stop.
- [14:25]
Jen Psaki
Sorry.
- [14:26]
Host/Interviewer
It's okay. You can feel and say whatever you want to say. Just to be clear. I think people are, are feeling what you're feeling right now on your behalf. You know, part of what is so enraging here, there's so many things, is that she isn't here to tell her own story. You're the closest there is to tell her story. And one of the. This email that I've talked about is getting a lot of attention because it's talking about how Epstein says your sister spent hours in his house with Donald Trump. There's been so much speculation about what that means. How do you read it? Or is there anything you want people to understand of what you think it means?
- [15:07]
Sky Roberts
I think it means there are still so many layers to uncover. I think there are so many things that we just don't know. She's never had a personal conversation to us about an interaction like that. That doesn't mean that it's true or not true. And I think that this just further proves how deep of an investigation is warranted here. This is why those files need to be released. This is why the paper trails need to be followed. Okay. We have to look into this deeper and we have to look at accountability here. I think that's what Virginia would want today. And she wants protection for herself, for her family, who she has left behind, and for every single survivor who consistently puts themselves at risk and entrusting their government, Republican and Democrats, we are trusting you to do the right thing by us and protect survivors. No more shameful games. No more political party games. This is not a political issue. And I'm going to tell you this. Survivors don't care and they didn't care when they were being abused. Whether someone was a Republican or a Democrat, they don't care. We don't care. The American public do not care which party you fall on. If you are implicated in these heinous acts. It must come to light. We must do better. Our world is demanding that of us.
- [16:44]
Host/Interviewer
I'll just add, having worked in democratic politics for 20 years, if Democrats in there, Democrats who are prominent, they should be named and outed too. This is about justice for survivors. It has nothing to do with people's party affiliation. Let me ask you because I think part of it is what happens now. And there is of course this discharge petition which you have both been out there working so hard to advocate for, among so many other things. There's going to be a vote next week. It sounds like many more Republicans, to your point, Amanda, I think are coming out and saying or saying privately that they're going to support this. There is a huge, big pressure campaign from the White House to keep people from getting on board. People have resisted that to date, but it's going to just amp up. Your voices are more powerful than their voices. What's the argument you want people to hear and understand about why it is so important even if there are enough votes to pass this, that people who want to stand on the side of survivors, they want to do that, they need to support this?
- [17:52]
Amanda Roberts
Well, I think where you have a lot of momentum right now, I think that survivors voices are truly being heard right now. I think all the work that my sister put in over the years and the truth that she told and the people that she took down. A prince is no longer a prince anymore. You mentioned that at the beginning of the show she did real things and this is not a hoax. All right. And you know what? The White House only wants it to not be a hoax when it's convenient for them. Right. They want to mention my sister's name and say, oh, vindicated because my sister said so. Not true. Not true at all. She actually never said that once. She just said that you were nice to her. And you know, and that doesn't mean that it didn't happen to somebody else. But for this petition in particular, we're very proud of all Democrats out there. Again, it's not a party issue, but every Democrat did sign on and we have some really brave Republicans that stepped forward and said enough is enough. We're going to do this because it's the right thing to do. Because if I'm going to go home at night and look at my daughter in the face or my sister in the face, I'm going to sign this damn petition. I'm going to do it right now because it's the right thing to do. And I'm hoping more Republicans gain that same traction and can hear the voices of survivors. I couldn't tell you right now. I'll be the first one in Washington, D.C. tomorrow. If you want to talk on the House floor or whatever floor you want to talk on or at a coffee shop, I don't care what Republican is, I will look you in the face. I will have that conversation with you and I will tell my sister's story just like every survivor should tell their story. Because this is a platform that we are constantly fighting for every single day. And it's time. It's time the American knows who these monsters truly are because too many of them are still walking around free.
- [19:24]
Host/Interviewer
Well, it's really thanks to the advocacy and bravery of your sister and both of you that so many people are learning more about this story and better understanding how important it is to stand up. Sky and Amanda Roberts, thank you both so much for being here with me tonight.
- [19:41]
Sky Roberts
Thank you.
- [19:41]
Amanda Roberts
Thank you, Jen.
- [19:43]
Host/Interviewer
Okay, Senator Adam Schiff is standing by. We're going to continue this conversation and more in just 90 seconds.
- [19:48]
Jen Psaki
Think advertising on TikTok isn't for your business. Think again.
- [19:52]
Ro Khanna
We've generated over 100,000 leads which has.
- [19:55]
Host/Interviewer
Converted into over 40,000 sales for our pet insurance policies.
- [19:59]
Jen Psaki
My name is Trey Farrow. I am the CEO of Spot Pet Insurance.
- [20:02]
Ro Khanna
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- [20:07]
Host/Interviewer
Optimizing creative.
- [20:08]
Ro Khanna
If I can advertise on TikTok, you can too.
- [20:11]
Jen Psaki
Drive more leads and scale your business. Today only on TikTok. Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTok ads.
- [20:19]
Sky Roberts
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- [20:46]
Host/Interviewer
Come to DSW for the shoes. Stay for the fun. Because let's be honest, if shoe shopping isn't fun, are you even doing it right? So go ahead, try something new. Try something different, good different. Try something that feels like you, you know, the real you. And then definitely brag about it later. Because at dsw, you've got unlimited freedom to play. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or@dsw.com Let us surprise you. Over the summer, Donald Trump's Deputy Attorney General and former personal lawyer can't say that together too many times. Ty Blanche met 20 twice with Ghislaine Maxwell, the convicted sex trafficker and of course, accomplice of Jeffrey Epstein's. And in those interviews, Maxwell put distance between Trump and Epstein, saying that she did not recall ever seeing Trump in Epstein's home except in Epstein's own email to Maxwell back in 2011, released just yesterday by Democrats on the House Oversight Committee, Epstein admitted that Trump did indeed visit one of his homes. Now, maybe she didn't see, but Maxwell's response to Epstein to that email was, quote, unquote, I have been thinking about that. Really makes you wonder about just how honest Ghislaine Maxwell was in those interviews and why Todd Blanche never brought up this piece of evidence in his interviews with Maxwell in the first place. Well, today Todd Blanche admitted on Twitter that despite being the number two person at the Justice Department, he did not have that evidence at the time posting, quote, when I interviewed Maxwell, law enforcement didn't have the materials Epstein's estate hid for years and only just provided to Congress. And let's just say I have a lot of questions about that admission. Joining me now is Senator Adam Schiff, who sits on the Judiciary Committee, and I'm betting has a lot of questions about that admission, too. Let's just start there. I mean, in that post, Todd Blanche confirmed something that I think even in this age of a lot of stunning things should be stunning, that he didn't have all the information when he interviewed Maxwell. What did that tell you?
- [22:57]
Jen Psaki
Well, this goes to a central question about that whole interview, and that is why didn't Todd Blanche actually bring someone familiar with the case, one of the prosecutors who had handled the case that would know the facts, that would know when Maxwell was lying, when she was telling the truth? Now, one of those prosecutors was James Comey's daughter who was fired from the Justice Department, but he brought no one who knew the facts and no one who could press Maxwell test whether she's telling the truth. That, of course, was deliberate because getting the truth from Maxwell was not the object. Getting an exonerating statement, exonerating testimony for Donald Trump was the object. And of course, it appears that that resulted in Maxwell being transferred to this, you know, minimum security concierge service providing institution that is not suitable for sex offenders. So, on the one hand, it raises profound questions about why Blanche wasn't prepared and didn't know the facts. But more than that, it really underscores what Amanda said, and that is we need a real investigation here. If they didn't have the emails from the estate, it's because Cash Patel didn't ask for them, didn't subpoena them, didn't want them. I think we see in these emails that are now dribbling out just why Bondi and Patel don't want to release what they already have and don't want to do the thorough investigation that was apparently never done by the government.
- [24:21]
Host/Interviewer
I have so many questions for you about this trove of emails, which I'm sure you haven't read all 23,000 pages, but just I know we're living in a time where what the consequences that should happen don't always happen. We obviously can't unwind and go back in time and have Todd Blanche bring someone with him. As you said, he didn't intend to do that. Clearly, Ghislaine Maxwell, as you said, was transferred to a more minimum security prison where she's apparently playing with puppies and taking yoga classes with. What should happen? You said an investigation should happen in normal times. Obviously she should be transferred back. Right. What else should happen given these revelations from these emails that she seemed to have lied multiple times?
- [24:59]
Jen Psaki
Well, we should be doing oversight in Congress. Republicans should be helping to do that oversight to find out who made the decision to transfer her to this, you know, sort of cushy prison. Who made that call? You know, when I asked Kash Patel about it in the Judiciary Committee, he claimed that it was the Euro of prisons and the Bureau of Prisons made that decision on their own. He knew nothing about it. The Justice Department wasn't involved somehow. That was the import of his testimony. That just doesn't pass the credibility test. So, number one, we need to do oversight in Congress, but number two, the Justice Department needs to do a real investigation. They need to release publicly what they have. These emails have already shed, I think, some significant light. I was really struck by something Donald Trump said over the summer when he acknowledged having a falling out with Epstein because Epstein was taking girls from Mar? A Lago And I remember asking myself, what do you think Epstein was doing with those girls? And now we see one of those emails that just came out makes reference to this. When Epstein I think is telling Maxwell or telling someone else in those emails, well, of course he knew. That's why there was essentially this dispute over taking girls from Donald Trump or from Mar a Lago. So these emails are already shedding light. The White House is engaged in its usual sort of blitzkrieg of denials. But there needs to be a real investigation here, a serious investigation.
- [26:23]
Host/Interviewer
There are so many emails to your point, and I think reporters and committee members and staff are still going through them. I want to ask you about one of them specifically that I don't think I paid as much attention to yesterday, but I did today and I think a lot of people did. It's the one where Jeffrey Epstein says about Donald Trump, I am the one able to take him down. What do you think that means?
- [26:48]
Jen Psaki
Well, I think the import is I know information on Donald Trump that the public hasn't seen yet and it is very incriminating. This is I think where he refers also to it as the dog that hasn't barked. That is the information that isn't out there yet. So clearly he believes he has something that is valuable to him as potential extortion of Donald Trump, but also would be extremely damaging to the President. And probably a thorough investigation would reveal just what that is if Epstein put it in writing to someone else or if there was physical evidence of that in the files.
- [27:26]
Host/Interviewer
Senator Adam Schiff, I'm going to ask you just to stay put. There's kind of multiple stories, as you know, we're covering around this right now. We're all focused on this trove of emails, also the forward looking actions in Congress. So we are going to take a quick break. We'll talk about that when we come back.
- [27:44]
Jen Psaki
Think advertising on TikTok isn't for your business. Think again.
- [27:47]
Host/Interviewer
With TikTok ads, we went from 250,000 downloads to over a million downloads in less than a year. I'm Eve.
- [27:53]
Sky Roberts
I'm Anam and we're the co founders of Alinea.
- [27:55]
Host/Interviewer
Alinea Invest is an investing app for Gen z.
- [27:58]
Sky Roberts
We run 50 new ads per week with three variations thanks to TikTok Smart plus campaigns.
- [28:04]
Host/Interviewer
If you're not advertising on TikTok, you're missing out.
- [28:07]
Amanda Roberts
Drive more app downloads only on TikTok.
- [28:10]
Jen Psaki
Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTokads busy.
- [28:14]
Sky Roberts
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- [28:41]
Host/Interviewer
Ah, DSW Earth, place of the humble brag here. The shoes are so good, no one would ever know how little you paid if you didn't go telling everyone that is. And with never ending options for every style, mood and occasion, all at really great prices, we'll definitely give you something to brag about. So go ahead, stock up on fresh sneakers from your favorite brands or try those boots you always secretly knew you could pull off. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or@dsw.com Let us surprise you. If the House votes to release the Epstein files next week, and it sure looks like it will, Donald Trump will have to count on Republicans in the Senate to stop this from getting to his desk. And even then, he might have some problems.
- [29:29]
Ro Khanna
I just don't think this issue is going to go away until that issue is addressed and answered to the American people's satisfaction. Yeah, and I may end up with a sombrero on my head for saying that, but that's, that's the way I see it.
- [29:44]
Host/Interviewer
That's, of course, a reference to the video, the AI video that Trump did about Hakeem Jeffries. But back with me, of course, is Senator Adam Schiff. And now it looks like let's just talk about the mechanics of this because it looks like there could be a lot of Republican support on the petition in the House. I'm going to talk to your California colleague Ro Khanna about that in just a moment. But what are you expecting to happen when it lands in the Senate?
- [30:09]
Jen Psaki
Well, I would expect they will do everything they can to fight that passing in the Senate, and we're going to do what we can to make sure that that gets taken up. There are a number of tactics we can use in the Senate to compel a vote. We have compelled votes, for example, in the Judiciary Committee about releasing the Epstein files. Those votes didn't succeed, but I'm glad to hear Senator Kennedy, who sits on the Judiciary Committee with me, make comments like that because it does show that some of the Republicans want this information to be public. They want to know who is responsible, who should be held Accountable. So we will explore whatever methods, whatever tools we have to force votes on this. It is simply not going to go away. And I think the more the White House lets this drip, drip, drip, the more they're going to wish they had just, you know, released things and stopped this campaign of, you know, fighting disclosure, denial followed by implausible denial followed by implausible denial.
- [31:10]
Host/Interviewer
So there just to put a fine point on that, there's not a discharge petition process in the Senate, but there are ways to compel or to pushed for votes even without Senate Majority Leader Thune, who seems not inclined to do it at this moment. Is that right through a committee process?
- [31:27]
Jen Psaki
Well, you can often force votes on things in committee. Forcing votes on the floor is a little bit more challenging. Some things are privileged and we'll certainly explore whether there's anything privileged that can be made to fit disclosure of the Epstein files. But even if there isn't, there are ways to both negotiate. Okay, we're going to not put up a fight on this. If you don't put up a fight on voting for that or at least allowing us a vote on that, there is leverage that we can use. Now, as we have seen, the leverage is limited. We are very much in the minority, but we can make it very difficult in the Senate for Senate Republicans if they continue to go along with the President's concealment campaign.
- [32:10]
Host/Interviewer
And people can advocate to their senators at the same time, too. Let me ask you, obviously there's a hurdle to get this through, which is why I wanted to talk to you about this. Let's just talk about if this were to become law, because I think it's important for people to understand what it could do. The House Oversight Committee is, of course, with bipartisan support, issued subpoenas to get information. We've seen information released. They've the information that came out yesterday came from the Epstein estate. There's more coming on that front. If this were to pass, this discharge petition, if it were to pass and become law, what's the difference between the information that could come from this and the information that the committee is getting through the subpoena process?
- [32:51]
Jen Psaki
Well, it would mean that the whole universe of information that's in the government's possession would be released. Redacting names and other things to protect the privacy of victims. That would be the most fulsome disclosures. What the committees have had to do is go to outside parties like the estate, the Epstein estate, to get records. They might be getting some records from the administration, but clearly the administration is Cherry picking what they provide to Congress. So this would end the cherry picking of information. Now, I would fully expect, just given what we've seen of the Trump administration, their tactics, that if this passes both houses, of course they'll veto it. And if somehow we were able to override a veto, they would challenge it in court, as with some false claim of constitutionality or unconstitutionality, they would try to draw this out beyond the president's term if they can. So this is a hugely important step in the House because it forces people to go on record whether they're going to continue to be part of this cover up. And hats off to Ro Khanna and Representative Massie for leading this charge. But it's a hard road ahead. Nevertheless, forcing these votes is a form of important accountability, no question.
- [34:04]
Host/Interviewer
Including in the Senate. It's powerful to see where people stand and it's important for people to understand the hurdles because there's a lot of other levers that need to keep being pushed as well. Senator Adam Schiff, thank you as always for joining me.
- [34:17]
Jen Psaki
Thank you.
- [34:18]
Host/Interviewer
Coming up, Donald Trump's base is cracking right now in a way that we have really never seen before. And not just on the Epstein scandal. It's on a bunch of issues. That's next after Quick break. It has been a rough couple of weeks for Donald Trump. Humiliating election losses, the worst polling of his presidency and persistent questions about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. But through it all, he has managed to find some time for his true passion.
- [34:56]
Ro Khanna
I'll show you something. This is the equivalent of what I do with the ballroom. I built many ballrooms and many buildings, and that's my greatest strength, actually. Look at the floor. Take a look at the marble.
- [35:10]
Host/Interviewer
So this is called, it is really.
- [35:11]
Ro Khanna
Pretty statue of marble. But look at, look at the book ending. Look at, look at the book match. Look how it matches. I build better than anybody else. Nobody can build like me. Take a look at this, fellas. You want to see detail. That's half inch thick bronze carved by a very talented person. And it's brass. It's pure brass. It's half inch thick brass. And you can't just do that. That's, you know, you look at that, that's quality, right?
- [35:39]
Host/Interviewer
I mean, I gotta say, he seems genuinely happy when he's talking about that stuff. Things like marble and paint and the width of brass just seemed to capture his attention and in ways that most parts of the presidency don't seem to. But while Trump focuses on paint swashes and vanity projects, real cracks appear to be forming in his party. Remember, it wasn't that long ago Trump and his allies were saying, release the Epstein files. Now they're on very different pages. Yesterday Trump failed to bully self described MAGA members of Congress into folding. And now he's looking at dozens of Republican defections when it gets a full vote. And like so many things right now, this is a problem of his own making. I mean, Trump has spent over a decade demonizing immigrants and telling his supporters that they are poisoning the country. And now he's alienated a chunk of MAGAWorld by voicing support for certain visas for foreign born workers. And his effort to put forward some ideas that address affordability, well, that's not really going so well either because what he has come up with is a 50 year mortgage. An idea so bad that both Democrats and die hard MAGA supporters are all united in how outrageous they think it is. When it isn't Trump's dismissiveness or contradictory statements or bad ideas that undermine Republicans. It is the rotten example he sets for everyone else in his party. Remember when he demanded that his own justice department pay him $230 million as compensation for the very legitimate federal criminal investigations into him? Well, that made it not so surprising when some Senate Republicans tacked onto the spending bill a way to get their own enormous payouts from the government. And if and when their phone records, like say around an insurrection on the Capitol they work in are very legitimately looked into, that provision is so obviously corrupt that you guessed it, other Republicans are furious about it. Even Speaker Mike Johnson is piling on and now saying the House will have a standalone vote to repeal the provision put in by Senate Republicans. Needless to say, none of this is a sign of a healthy cohesive party. Cracks are kind of shown everywhere and it's all thanks to one guy. At this point, they might all prefer he spends more time on interior decorating. So what can Democrats do with that dysfunction and how can they use it to their advantage, both politically and on key issues they really care about? Congressman Ro Khanna is standing by and he joins me next. From the very beginning, the effort to force the release of the Epstein files has been a surprisingly bipartisan one driven by pretty unlikely allies. Democrat Ro Khanna and Republican Thomas Massie first came together to co sponsor the discharge petition and its passage yesterday was made possible. Well, it being able to move forward was made possible by the alliance of Democrats and some of the once most loyal Trumpers in the House. It's honestly one of the most diverse political coalitions we've seen in the Trump era. And now it looks like an even larger group of Republicans may be preparing to support the discharge petition when it actually comes up for a vote next week. So where does that stand? I have the perfect person to ask a guy who has been actually counting a lot of those votes. Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California and co author of the Epstein Files discharge petition. It must be quite a moment to be where you are, where this vote is looking like it is. Next week there could be 50 to 60 Republicans. We've seen kind of a growing number maybe join with Democrats in supporting the discharge petition next week. You've been deeply engaged in leading this effort. So where does your best estimate stand right now?
- [39:20]
Ro Khanna
Well, first of all, the survivors deserve so much credit. This thing was almost dead, and then these courageous survivors came to the Capitol, spoke out and that really gave it new life. And I think we could get 50, 60 Republicans. I mean, I'm hoping for 290, a veto proof majority. But Jen, look, you've worked at the White House. Have you ever heard of a member of Congress being called in to the Situation Room to be berated? I mean, it was absurd the lengths the White House went through and they still were unable to get those congresspeople off the petition.
- [39:56]
Host/Interviewer
No, they were trying to make people feel like if they voted against it, it was a national security issue, which is ludicrous. That's not where these meetings are held. It feels like the floodgates have opened. You mentioned the survivors. I started the show with sky and Amanda Roberts, who were just so incredible and they're two of many. What else prompted it? I mean, did the release of the 20,000 pages yesterday, did that prompt kind of the opening of the floodgates here?
- [40:22]
Ro Khanna
I think it was the survivors, in the case of Representative Mason and Thalbert and Marjorie Taylor Greene that actually heard these stories. Certainly the emails mattered. But look, there's the sense that there's an Epstein class and they need to go, that there are these people who had extreme wealth and they abused young girls and they are facing no consequence and people are sick of it. And so you also have, Jen, the weakening of Donald Trump. I mean, there are more people willing to now vote against him. And that's why I've said if you really get 50 to 60 Republicans or even 30 Republicans voting against him, it shows how weak he is. I mean, that's a significant thing to vote against your own president, let alone vote against Donald Trump.
- [41:08]
Host/Interviewer
It's Such an important point. He's been pretty disengaged through the course of the shutdown and through a lot of policy things that have been happening. And he was, like, woken up yesterday to really protect himself. And that means all of these people will be voting against something he wants. You have a press conference coming up next week. Can you tell us more about who might be appearing there, what you're hoping that that will accomplish?
- [41:32]
Ro Khanna
The press conference is going to have survivors, some who've spoken before, some who we're going to be hearing for the first time. I really want to center them. And I've been saying this to my colleagues. This is not about getting Donald Trump. These women have not had justice for over a decade. They have not been heard. And this is about doing right by them, having the country here by them. My hope is it will get us a big vote in the House, and my hope is it'll make sure that the Senate takes this up and we actually get the release of these files, because that would be actually, you know, I felt, I've been in Congress nine years. I was telling Thomas Massey, I actually felt, wow, this is the time. It makes a difference. Like we're actually making a difference in people's lives.
- [42:16]
Host/Interviewer
That's such an important reminder. It's about so many predators out there and so many survivors. I want to ask you about J.D. vance. I mean, he has been conspicuously MIA. He's been quite critical in the past. He's called in the past for these files to be released. This is a guy you follow closely. He just said during an interview that he's going to consider whether he's going to run for president after the midterms. Is that what this is about? Kind of staying out of the fray? What do you make of his silence of sorts?
- [42:47]
Ro Khanna
Well, here's why it's so disturbing. He, more than Donald Trump, was on every podcast, every television show saying, let's release the Epstein files. He was on Theo Vaughan. He would go on flagrant. This is someone who made that his cause. And now there's not a word from him. I mean, he is so afraid of saying anything that's going to upset Donald Trump. At the same time, he knows the absurdity of the position of not releasing the files. So he is offering a position of silence. But this is not going to work for him. And I. It's the first time, really, the MAGA base is seeing that Donald Trump and J.D. vance have become part of the swamp that they railed against.
- [43:28]
Host/Interviewer
It certainly is. We'll see if he gets asked about it during this FOX interview. Congressman Ro Khanna, thank you so much for joining me. I've got one more piece of news before we go tonight. We'll be right back. A very quick reminder before we go tonight that starting this weekend, all your favorite shows and hosts will still be appearing at their same bat time on the same bat channel. But our network will have a new name starting Saturday. We will be msnow. Same mission, new name. That's the same. The same thing, just a new name. There's a big change coming to this network, but I'll still be here asking the kinds of questions that I used to face, only our name is changing. Same mission, same place, new name. MSNBC becomes MSNBCnow November 15th.