'AMATEUR HOUR': Trump looks foolish before the world with self-evident poor planning in Iran

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode: "AMATEUR HOUR": Trump looks foolish before the world with self-evident poor planning in Iran

Date: March 12, 2026
Host: Jen Psaki
Guests: Michael McFaul, Ben Rhodes, Suha Subramaniam, Chris d'Aluzio

Overview

In this episode, Jen Psaki delivers a scathing analysis of the Trump administration's handling of the war with Iran, revealing a pattern of poor planning, shifting narratives, and dangerous amateurism at the highest levels of government. The show dives into civilian casualties, strategic blunders (notably regarding the Strait of Hormuz), the unraveling MAGA coalition, and candid perspectives from lawmakers, diplomats, veterans, and even Trump’s own supporters. The episode unfolds in a tone that is biting, urgent, and often incredulous, while punctuating the seriousness with moments of sardonic humor and personal insight.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pentagon’s Priorities and Civilian Casualties

• Photo Controversy at the Pentagon ([01:01])
  Psaki opens by mocking Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s fixation on “unflattering” press photos amid an escalating war:

  “With everything that the Secretary of Defense has on his plate right now, the thing he is focused on is whether or not press photographers are getting his good side.” (Psaki, [02:05])

• US Strike on Iranian Girls’ School ([02:30] – [04:57])
  – The New York Times confirms US responsibility for a missile strike that killed at least 175 people, many children.
  – Blame lies with outdated targeting data—due to Hegseth gutting the Civilian Protection Center at the Pentagon.
  – Psaki highlights Hegseth’s cavalier, “maximum lethality” ethos:

  Pete Hegseth (quoted): “Maximum lethality, not tepid legality. Violent effect, not politically correct.” ([04:48])
  Psaki (mocking): “You can kill them in a boat, you can kill them in a moat…” ([04:57])

• Undermining Laws of Armed Conflict
  – Hegseth’s hostility to Geneva Conventions and civilian protection leads to real-world consequences.
  – The “no-strike list” (designed to protect schools/hospitals) became outdated after being neglected.

2. Trump Administration’s Evasive and Contradictory Responses

• Shifting Blame and Evasion ([07:38] – [09:31])
  – Trump first blames Iran for the school strike, then, after evidence emerges, claims ignorance.
  – Clip montage exposes repeated contradictions:

  Trump: “No. In my opinion … that was done by Iran.” ([07:45])
  Later, confronted: “Because I just don't know enough about it ... But Tomahawks are used by others.” ([08:23])
  When pressed after the investigation:
  “For what?”
  “I don't know, though.” ([09:19]-[09:28])
  – Psaki’s cutting summary:
  “He doesn't know about it. I mean, first of all, any president would know about it. ... now he doesn't know anything about it.” ([09:31])

• Contradictory War Messaging ([12:24] – [13:18])
  – Trump claims the war is “very complete,” Hegseth calls it “just the beginning.”
  –

  Trump: “Well, I think it could say both.” ([12:30])
  Psaki: “It literally cannot be both, but it's always both.” ([12:40])

  – Mission Accomplished?

  Hegseth: “We’re not flying a ‘Mission Accomplished’ banner.” ([13:03])

  Trump at a rally: “We won, the bet in the first hour. It was over.” ([13:18])

3. Strategic Failures: Oil Reserves & Strait of Hormuz

• Unprepared for Energy Fallout ([10:20] – [12:31])
  – Iran closes the Strait of Hormuz; global oil prices spike, strategic reserves are insufficient.
  – NYT reports Trump’s team downplayed this risk; Sen. Chris Murphy says administration “has no plan.”
  – Trump’s response:

  Trump: “I think they should [use the Strait]. I think they should.” ([11:24])
  – A Thai ship, heeding this advice, gets attacked by Iran; crew missing.

• Expert Analysis on Energy Domino Effects
  – Ben Rhodes details the “devastating” global economic consequences:

  “If the war ended tomorrow, it would still take weeks to restart all that production… If it is mined, it could take months.” ([21:36])

  – Putin benefits enormously from higher oil prices, enabled by US missteps.

4. Expert Roundtable: Competence, Geopolitics, and Morality

• Ambassador McFaul: Civilian Casualty Response ([17:05] – [19:30])
  – “It's absurd that he just shrugs and says, I don't know anything about that. … I just find it immoral the way he talks about [civilian deaths]. ... It makes us look like other thugs in the world. … This has really big, long term damage to our reputation …”

• Ben Rhodes: Amateur Hour and “Disaster” Politics ([22:59], [29:34])
  – The administration failed to anticipate Iran’s moves; the global energy shock is fueling adversaries.
  – “It’s amateur hour… I want a commander in chief who cares about US troops and Iranian school children, not just the price of oil, which Trump seems to be obsessed with...”

  – On political consequences:

  “The political consequences for them are gonna be absolutely catastrophic... This war checks every box that Americans don’t like. Why are service members dying overseas for something we don’t understand?... This thing is going to be devastating for them.” ([29:34])

5. Fracturing MAGA Coalition and Public Sentiment

• Discontent in Trump’s Base ([27:25] – [28:42])
  – Highlighting Megyn Kelly’s attacks on Lindsey Graham and bro podcasters’ buyer’s remorse:

  Megyn Kelly (quoted): “This guy is a homicidal maniac with a bloodlust that is insatiable… should not be allowed within 20ft of the President’s orbit ...” ([27:55])
  Suha Subramaniam: “…it just seems so insane based on what he ran on. I mean, this is why a lot of people feel betrayed, right? He ran on no more wars... and then we have one that we can't even really clearly define why we did it.” ([28:25])

• J.D. Vance’s Silence
  – Psaki points out that Vance’s pro-peace reputation is now at odds with his tight-lipped position amid the escalating mess.

• Parallel to Obama’s 2008 Run
  – Ben Rhodes & Psaki draw a line from anti-war sentiment propelling Obama in 2008 to its potential for realigning 2026 and beyond.

6. Epstein Settlement Reporting

• Breaking News Segment ([31:15] – [37:29])
  – Psaki brings on Rep. Suha Subramaniam to discuss testimony from Jeffrey Epstein’s accountant suggesting a Trump accuser received a payout from the survivor fund. – Key point: Details remain unclear; lawyer for the accountant has since backtracked; mixed answers and conflicts of interest abound. – Congressional committee plans to depose additional figures and follow the financial trail.

7. Veterans’ Perspective: Candid Reactions and War Weariness

• Veterans’ Roundtable & Congressman’s View ([38:21] – [45:14])
  – Discussion with Miami-area veterans (many Trump voters) exposes wide-ranging, deeply conflicted feelings—terms associated with the war include “Iraq,” “predictable,” “pointless,” “power,” “sadness for loss of life.” – Support for Trump wavers at the possibility of American boots on the ground. – Congressman Chris d'Aluzio (Iraq war veteran):

  “My fellow veterans from my generation … see something similar about the decision, the foolish decision to go to Iraq … and seeing this president bumble into a war that he didn't have to fight, looking for justifications..." ([41:10])
  "Veterans ... know that it is the brothers and sisters in arms today who will bear the cost of it. Seven already dead, sadly, of our troops coming back home in flag-draped caskets. So that cost is substantial. It is real." ([41:57])

• Trump's “Excursion” Label Critiqued
  – Psaki and d’Aluzio both highlight how the flippant language (“excursion”) and Trump’s draft avoidance fuel veteran resentment and distrust. – Reminder: Most Americans do not support this war; Trump bypassed Congress for authorization.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“[Pete Hegseth] likes to articulate with Dr. Seuss style rhymes: ‘Maximum lethality, not tepid legality. Violent effect, not politically correct.’”
— Jen Psaki ([04:48])

“No. In my opinion, based on what I've seen, that was done by Iran.”
— Donald Trump ([07:45])

“He says he's willing to live with that report. Well, today, after we got the news that the report likely blames the US for the strike, Trump suddenly had a very convenient bout of amnesia…”
— Jen Psaki ([09:19])

“Well, I think it could say both.”
— Donald Trump, on whether the Iran conflict is “complete” or “just the beginning” ([12:30])

“If he doesn't know anything about [the school bombing], why is his team not briefing him? And if he does and he's lying about it, that's equally bad. The second part, I just find it immoral the way he talks about it.”
— Michael McFaul ([18:00])

“This is amateur hour… I want a commander in chief who cares about US troops and Iranian school children, not just the price of oil…”
— Ben Rhodes ([21:36])

“We are almost two weeks into the war in Iran. When you think about this war, what is the first word that comes to your mind?”
— Alex Tabit to South Miami veterans ([38:21])

“I bet you if you went into a VFW or a Legion post in my part of the world in western Pennsylvania, you'd hear some pretty similar conversations. My fellow veterans from my generation... grappling with the same questions…” — Rep. Chris d’Aluzio ([41:10])

---

Timestamps — Important Segments

• 00:00–01:01: Ads
• 01:01: Jen Psaki introduces the Pentagon photo controversy
• 02:30: Civilian casualties, missile strike investigation updates
• 04:48: Hegseth’s “Dr. Seuss” war slogans
• 07:38–09:31: Trump’s shifting explanations for school strike
• 10:20–12:31: Energy crisis, Strait of Hormuz closure; administration unpreparedness
• 12:59: Contradictory administration messaging (Mission Accomplished debate)
• 14:49–20:11: Expert roundtable: Michael McFaul & Ben Rhodes
• 22:59: Rhodes: Geopolitical and economic fallout, “amateur hour”
• 27:25: MAGA infighting, base dissatisfaction
• 31:15–37:29: Epstein survivor fund & Trump accuser bombshells with Rep. Subramaniam
• 38:21–45:14: Veterans’ roundtable, Rep. d'Aluzio’s reflections

---

Conclusion

This episode presents an unflinching portrait of chaos, denial, and strategic incompetence at the heart of the Trump administration’s Iran war policy. From military blunders and civilian deaths, to energy shocks and global destabilization, Jen Psaki and her guests weave together a narrative of a government more concerned with optics and blame-shifting than with strategy or morality. The cracks in Trump’s political coalition and the war-weariness among veterans and Americans at large suggest escalating domestic and international consequences.

---

For listeners who want to understand the roots of America’s 2026 Iran war debacle, its human, geopolitical, and political costs, and why so many are now calling this “amateur hour” — this episode is essential.

Transcript

[Dr. Horton Advertiser]

Your new home is now ready. Dr. Horton, America's builder has new homes that are ready today. With new construction communities throughout the Puget Sound and Central Washington areas And more coming, Dr. Horton has the right home for you at Dr. Horton. We're still building with more construction, more communities and more homes available every day. Tap your screen now or visit drhorton.com to find your new home now ready. Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal Housing Opportunity builder.

[Factor Meals Advertiser]

Exhausted from spending half your night cooking. Factor eliminates the stress with chef crafted, fully prepared meals delivered to your door fresh, never Frozen, ready in two minutes. Factor delivers zero cooking, zero stress. Just heat and eat. Over 100 dietitian approved options weekly with no refined sugars, artificial sweeteners or refined seed oils. Right now go to FactorMeals.com easy50off and use code EASY50OFF for 50% off and free breakfast for a year. That's FactorMeals.com and use code EZ50OFF.

[Jen Psaki]

I have something to show you. And something. This something is something that the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, really, really does not want you to see. And it's probably not what you're thinking. I mean, it's not a top secret war plan that Pete Hegseth accidentally posted in a signal chat, which there's still been no accountability for. It's not photos showing top Trump national security officials checking Twitter in the middle of a military operation. Those exist. It's not even this footage of Pete Hegseth ringing in the new year during his previous life as an anchor for Fox News. Our Secretary of Defense, everyone, there he is on your screen. Those things all exist, but it's not any of those things. Now, the thing Pete Hexseth really does not want you to see is this photo. That one right there, the one on your screen. Pete Hecseth at a Pentagon briefing, furrowing his brow as he takes questions about Trump's war of choice in Iran. And the reason I know that Pete Hegseth doesn't want you to see this photo is because the Washington Post is reporting that the Defense Department has now banned press photographers from the Pentagon briefing room over photos his staff have deemed unflattering. Now, that's according to two people familiar with the decision just to take a step back here, which is always necessary when you're talking about Pete Hegseth and really a lot of things in this administration. The United States is on the 12th day of a war with Iran and with everything that the Secretary of Defense has on his plate right now the thing he is focused on is whether or not press photographers are getting his good side. It seems the former Fox News weekend host apparently has very strong feelings about it. Now, this would be very weird, extremely self involved behavior by a cabinet secretary from a far less important agency than the Department of Defense on a day with far less going on. But to perhaps state the obvious, there are a lot of other things Pete Hegseth should be worrying about right now, because not only is this war about to enter its third week with no end in sight, but every single day we learn more about what a disastrous job the Trump administration has done in managing everything around this war. I mean, since day one of this war, Pete Hegseth has faced questions about a missile strike on a girls elementary school in Iran, one that Iranian officials say killed at least 175 people, many of them children. It was one of the worst cases of civilian casualties during a military operation the United States has been directly involved with in decades. And given the evidence of a Tomahawk missile being used, a weapon only a handful of countries have access to, it's been clear that the most likely scenario was that the United States was responsible. And each time Pete Hegseth has been asked about it, he responded with some form of we're investigating it and left it at that. Well, today the New York Times reported on the preliminary findings from that investigation, and they confirmed what we all suspected. The United States was at fault for that strike. And people briefed on the investigation told the Times that the military relied on outdated targeting data provided by the Defense Intelligence Agency. Those findings are preliminary, but they are shocking nonetheless, because while mistakes do happen in a war, there are serious questions about whether or not Pete Hegseth's leadership at the Pentagon and what he's done since he started leading the Pentagon may have made this kind of mistake far easier to make. And it's all rooted in how Pete Hegseth has implemented his new vision for America's military since the very moment he walked in the door, one that he likes to articulate with Dr. Seuss style rhymes.

[Pete Hegseth]

Maximum lethality, not tepid legality. Violent effect, not politically correct.

[Jen Psaki]

You can kill them in a boat, you can kill them in a moat. You can shoot them in the trees, you can shoot them in the knees. I mean, that ridiculous idea was more, though, than just a catchy slogan for Pete Hegseth, which he obviously practiced with his hairbrush in the mirror, because Hegseth actually went about trying to make the US Military more deadly and less accountable to the Laws of war. Following that Dr. Seussian sort of riddle he did there. Remember, this is the same guy who wrote a book where he questioned the necessity of the Geneva Conventions, asking, aren't we just better off winning our wars according to our own rules? He spent his first year in office firing or reassigning military lawyers whose job is to make sure that our armed forces follow the laws of armed conflict. And then Pete Hegseth went after the part of the Defense Department specifically focused on protecting civilians. In a new report released just yesterday, ProPublica details how Pete Hegseth's Pentagon dismantled the Civilian Protection center of Excellence, an arm of the Pentagon tasked with trying to limit the number of civilian casualties on the battlefield. Now, when Pete Hecseth took over, the head of that Civilian protection Agency knew they were in trouble. And he even took steps to kind of try to rebrand the agency to make it sound more Hegseth friendly, I guess. I mean, he even considered renaming it the center for Precision Warfare, to put the mission in terms Hegseth wouldn't consider woke, or at least wouldn't lead to him kind of putting it on his list of things to cross off and eliminate. But under Hegseth's leadership, the Pentagon gutted the Civilian Protection center and pushed out its director, a decision that may have had deadly consequences, because one of the jobs at that gutted agency was regularly checking and updating a no strike list which identified civilian targets inside a country that the US Was about to strike. Places like schools and hospitals, which are strictly off limits in war. So just to recap here, the Secretary of Maximum Lethality gutted the agency that checks and updates the list of schools and hospitals inside a country before an attack to make sure they are not targets. Then the US Goes to war with Iran and likely strikes an Iranian girls school. And according to the New York Times, the Pentagon has a preliminary assessment that says the U.S. hit that school because our target list was out of date. Needless to say, none of this looks good for Pete Hegseth or his boss for that matter, or really anyone involved in this. Which may be why Trump's explanation of how this strike happened keeps changing. I mean, at first, Trump tried to blame the whole thing on Iran, even though we knew it was an American made missile that hit the school.

[Pete Hegseth]

Mr. President, did the United States bomb

[Suha Subramaniam]

a girl's elementary school in southern Iran on the first day of the war, kill 170?

[Donald Trump]

No. In my opinion, based on what I've seen, that was done by Iran.

[Suha Subramaniam]

Is that true?

[Pete Hegseth]

Mr. Hunts said he was around him.

[Michael McFaul]

We're certainly investigating.

[Jen Psaki]

No, in my opinion, based on what I've seen, it was done by Iran. Trump. Trump blamed Iran. Hexas said we're investigating. And then Trump was confronted about those wild mixed messages earlier this week.

[Suha Subramaniam]

You just suggested that Iran somehow got its hands on a Tomahawk and bombed its own elementary school on the first day of the war. But you're the only person in your government saying this. Even your defense secretary wouldn't say that when he was asked, standing over your shoulder on your plane on Saturday. Why are you the only person saying this?

[Donald Trump]

Because I just don't know enough about it. I think it's something that I was told is under investigation. But Tomahawks are used by others. As you know, numerous other nations have Tomahawks. They buy them from us. But I will certainly whatever the report shows, I'm willing to live with that report.

[Jen Psaki]

Lot to unpack there. Clearly, he knows what he's talking about. And then any president would have gone and asked more if they literally didn't know. And only a handful of countries actually have access to Tomahawk missiles. That aside, he said he's willing to live with that report. Well, today, after we got the news that the report likely blames the US for the strike, Trump suddenly had a very convenient bout of amnesia. A new report says that the military investigation has found that the United States struck the school in Iran. As commander in chief, you take responsibility for that. That is what, as commander in chief, do you.

[Donald Trump]

For what?

[Jen Psaki]

For the strike on the school in Iran. A new report says investigation has found it was the United States that struck the school.

[Donald Trump]

I don't know, though.

[Jen Psaki]

He doesn't know about it. I mean, first of all, any president would know about it. He also knew about it over the weekend. We know that he had opinions about Iran being behind it. And he knew about it on Monday when that reporter asked him about it again. But now he doesn't know anything about it. Look, every day gets more and more obvious that the Trump administration was completely unprepared for the consequences of this war, that they may have even undermined our strategic position going into it. And now they're trying to avoid the blame. I mean, to give you another example, right now, Iran has effectively closed the Strait of Hormuz, a key waterway that oil companies use to ship oil across the globe. And roughly 20% of the world's oil flows through that strait. And oil prices are spiking as a result of its closure. And governments around the world are are considering tapping their own strategic oil reserves to compensate. Now, the country with the biggest strategic oil reserve is supposed to be the United States. And when Trump took office, he promised he would refill America's strategic oil reserves, quote, right to the top. But a year later, when Trump desperately needs those reserves to keep oil prices low as Iran chokes off key oil routes, they are still less than 60% full. And a new report from the New York Times reveals that in the lead up to this war, Trump's advisors actually downplayed the risk that Iran might close the Strait of Hormuz and send the price of oil skyrocketing. Yesterday, Senator Chris Murphy left a closed door briefing with Trump's war planners, saying that the administration has, quote, no plan to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. He also said they don't know how to get it safely back open. Which may be why Donald Trump's new plan is to just repeatedly encourage oil tankers to make the dangerous journey through the strait, despite the deadly risks. I mean, here he was on that subject again today.

[Michael McFaul]

Are you talking to CEOs of various oil companies, encouraging them to use the straight up, or.

[Donald Trump]

I think they should. I think they should. I think they should use.

[Jen Psaki]

He thinks they should use the straight. That's kind of what he keeps saying about it. This is an image provided by the Royal Thai Navy of a ship from Thailand that attempted to just use the strait as Trump has been advising now for the last couple of days. And this ship was struck by Iran. The government of Thailand reports that three of that ship's crew members are now missing. See, Donald Trump is not prepared for this war to turn out the way it has. He thinks he can make demands and the world will listen, but that's not how war works. And it's clear to basically everybody paying attention that he has absolutely no idea what he is doing. I mean, he has repeatedly made completely contradictory statements about his plans for this war and how long it will be. And every time he is asked which of his diametrically opposing statements is actually US Policy, he just shrugs his shoulders and says it's both. You've said the war is, quote, very

[OnDeck Advertiser]

complete, but your Defense secretary says this

[Jen Psaki]

is just the beginning. So which is it and how long should Americans be?

[Donald Trump]

Well, I think it could say both.

[Suha Subramaniam]

You just said it is a little

[Jen Psaki]

excursion and you said it is a war.

[Suha Subramaniam]

So which one is it? Well, it's both.

[Donald Trump]

It's both.

[Jen Psaki]

It literally cannot be both, but it's always both. Even though it logically cannot be. And this just keeps happening. I mean, every day we get a new statement that contradicts the last thing they said. For example, here was Secretary Hegseth during an interview with 60 Minutes on Sunday.

[Pete Hegseth]

Well, there's no we're not flying a

[Suha Subramaniam]

Mission Accomplished banner like George W. Bush

[Pete Hegseth]

on an aircraft carrier. We're not doing that and we haven't done that.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, no Mission Accomplished banner for us. We're not doing that and we haven't done that. Well, Donald Trump didn't have a banner at his rally today in Kentucky, but he did say this.

[Donald Trump]

Well, it's only good if you win. You know, you can only. And we've won. Let me tell you, we've won. You know, you never like to say too early, you won, we won, we won the bet in the first hour. It was over.

[Jen Psaki]

Does it feel like we've won? Trump says we've won. It was over in the first hour. That sounds pretty Mission Accomplished to me. All of this would be, well, concerning cuz he's the leader of the free world. Some of it is funny if the consequences weren't deadly serious. And I've thought about this all day today. And who I really wanted to talk to today, I've talked to so many smart public officials who are doing everything they can to hold this administration accountable. We'll continue to do that. But tonight I really want to spend some time with people who I have actually sat with in the Situation Room and who I know have spent hours in these rooms to just really help unpack everything that is happening and not hold back in any way. Michael McFaul is the former U.S. ambassador to Russia during the Obama administration. Ben Rhodes was deputy national security advisor to President Obama. There's always so much to say each of these days, of these last 12 days that we have all been covering and talking about this war. And I'm gonna try to get to all of it. But I hope you too will bring up things that have struck out to you To Ben, Just a couple of hours after Donald Trump said we won, we got some breaking news from Reuters. Three sources familiar with the matter tell Reuters that U.S. intelligence indicates that Iran's leadership is still largely intact and is not at risk of collapse anytime soon. And this is just yet another one of these reports that we see every day where I think back to all of the hours you both I spent some time in them, but you spent more time in them, spent in contingency meetings to discuss what would happen if you did things like struck Iran. And I just wonder with that news and just everything you're seeing, kind of how you assess where we are at this moment.

[Pete Hegseth]

I think where we are, Jen, is that Donald Trump wants this to play out like on his own terms, on his own timelines. And that's not at all what's happening in Iran. It's not what's happening in the region and it's not what's happening around the world. And all of what's happening is predictable. I did sit in contingency meetings about this exact scenario, war with Iran, you know, over a decade ago, and all of these things would happen. So, first of all, the Iranian regime is not one man. It's not the 86 year old supreme leader. It is a deep and ideological machinery that cannot be destroyed in two or three or four weeks of airstrikes, full stop. The most heavily armed. There are millions of people under arms in the Iranian system. The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, the irgc, is the most powerful force inside of Iran. They're the ones that are going to emerge in any kind of power vacuum they have. They're the ones who are backing Ali Khamenei's son as the new supreme leader. They're not going to give up power. They're just not. And maybe Iran will fracture into some civil war, but they'll be fighting in that civil war. You've now had the war spread to over 10 countries in the region. Lebanon has nearly a million people displaced because of the Israeli bombardment there. Israelis are in bomb shelters. The Gulf has been devastated by strikes against not just military, but civilian targets as well. The oil is not flowing through the straits of Hormuz. 20% of the world's energy goes through there. So that's a global problem. Americans have spent over $10 billion. The economic cost to the world is probably tens and tens, if not over $100 billion. Donald Trump does not control these things. Israel has a vote. The Iranians have a vote. What other actors in the region do have a vote? So this thing is way beyond his control. And they're not going to achieve their objectives of replacing the Iranian regime or getting unconditional surrender. That's not going to happen in a two or three week air campaign.

[Jen Psaki]

One of the, as I just said, it seems like he thinks he can just shout things out and the world's going to follow. And that's not how things work. It's not how war works, not how anything works. Let me ask you, Ambassador McFaul, about one of the things, the pieces of news I just talked about that. We learned today that isn't particularly surprising given all the details that were out there in public reporting, but just that the preliminary investigation into that strike on that school in Iran found the US Was likely responsible. And Trump basically said, and I just played this clip, he didn't know anything about it. I mean, I kind of said, there's no president who wouldn't know anything about it. But put in place, I think this is being kind of brushed over a little bit, the significance of this type of civilian casualty. You've sat in a lot of these meetings, you've been in these conversations with presidents. Talk to us a little bit about this type of civilian casualty impact and what the typical conversation would be in a moment like this.

[Michael McFaul]

Well, of course, there would be an investigation, there would be a report. The president would be briefed every minute of the day on this. For the president that we all worked with, let's be clear about what you said earlier in the setup. It's absurd that he just shrugs and says, I don't know anything about that. Both worlds are bad, right? If he doesn't know anything about that, why is his team not briefing him? And if he does and he's lying about it, that's equally bad. But the second part, I just find it immoral the way he talks about it. And I want to stress this, I'm so glad you're focused on this particular piece of this very complex war that we're in. We're just blowing over it like it doesn't matter to anything, anybody. It matters to me. It matters to my friends. It matters to my Iranian American friends that I just celebrated Nowruz with last night, who cannot stand this regime. I want to make that clear. You can be totally against this horrible, repressive regime and also be outraged by kids in their homeland being killed. And we don't seem like our President of the United States doesn't express any remorse at all. It is appalling. And it makes us look weak. It makes us look like other thugs in the world. You know, Vladimir Putin talks this way. Why are we now, the United States of America, talking this way? I think it has really big, long term damage to our reputation that people in the White House are not thinking about.

[Jen Psaki]

It's such an important point. The world sees it. Leaders in the region see it. Our allies see it, partners see it, adversaries see it. And they see the reaction and the flippancy through which the president is responding. Let me ask you about, you mentioned the Strait of Hormones. I tried to just do kind of a quick summary of that and the impact here. I mean, Trump is telling these shipping companies to have some guts. It seems pretty clear from what Senator Chris Murphy said and some reporting from within the White House that they didn't think this would be a real issue, that they didn't plan for it being shut down in this way. How do you see this? What do you think could happen? They obviously missed a lot here, but give us your assessment of that.

[Pete Hegseth]

Well, again, in any conflict scenario, they're on. This is always something that you plan for. This is not a surprise at all. Again, so 20% of the world's energy flows through fossil fuel. Energy flows through the Straits of Hormuz. That's from Qatar, that's from the uae, that's from Bahrain, that's from a number of these Gulf countries. And what the Iranians can do is a couple of things. One is they can just kind of threaten to blow tankers out of the water, right? And maybe take out a couple. And we've seen reports that they have hit a number of tankers. And so therefore, the shipping companies, they don't want to do that, understandably. They don't want to go through the straits. If, if it's being targeted, then what happens is you also have some of the producers say, well, we're going to turn off the production because we can't ship this out. So Qatar, for instance, has turned off one of the largest liquid natural gas fields in the world because they can't export their energy. Then the biggest problem that could happen that we've seen reports of in the last couple days is Iran could lay mines in the Straits of Hormuz. So it's not even just that they're firing weapons. It said if you're running a tanker through there, you don't know if you're going to hit a mine or not. And that could have devastating consequences and already has for the price of oil in the world. That's going to show up at the pump for Americans, by the way, let's be clear who this benefits. Mike's on with us. Vladimir Putin is going to make a lot more money because already he's making more money on the oil that he is selling because the price of oil is higher. He's been given a waiver by the Trump administration to sell oil to India. And so he's making tons of money off of that. And in the long run, if we can't get this energy flowing, other countries, maybe even in Europe, might have to start buying Russian oil again. So this has all kinds of domino effects in terms of geopolitics. And I think another thing that people have to understand is if the war ended tomorrow, it would still take weeks to restart all that production, to restart that flow of ships through the straits to Hormuz. If it is mined, it could take months. Right. So this could be serious, devastating economic impacts to the global economy and to Americans paying higher prices. And the fact that they didn't think this through, that they're somehow surprised that something that anybody who's looked at a potential war with Iran knew the Iranians would do if they wanted to impose a cost on the rest of the world. And this is amateur hour. You know, it's as Mike said, it's immoral that we have a commander in chief that doesn't care that I want a commander in chief who cares about US Troops and Iranian school children, not just the price of oil, which Trump seems to be obsessed with, but he's obsessed with that without understanding that what he started is hurting Americans and hurting people around the world because of energy prices.

[Jen Psaki]

Also, you don't have to be a rocket scientist. You can look at a map and see where the Strait of Hormuz is located. Let me ask you, Ambassador McFaul, because Ben referenced Russia. I had Senator Schiff on last night, and he said the biggest winner here is Russia. No one knows these issues better than you. There are so many things out there. There's CNN confirmation today of reports that Russia's helping Iran with advanced drone tactics. There's, of course, Steve Witkoff's comments where he said he's gonna take them at their word. There's a range of reporting, but give us your assessment of just how Russia is benefiting. Ben talked about it a little bit, but what should people out there understand about that dynamic?

[Michael McFaul]

Well, the biggest thing is the price of oil. And Russian oil doesn't go through the Strait of Hormuz. They have other ways to get it out. We're now helping them. And I think Ben is right. As this crisis goes on, this economic crisis, we're going to help them more. That's more money for Putin to fund his war in Ukraine to kill Ukrainians. So we're helping Putin at a time when the Ukrainians think about the paradox of this, are helping us to learn about how to shoot down Shahid, Iranian Shaheed drones, because they know how to do that. But the second thing I really want to stress this bigger, wider thing that in the old days, we knew there were autocrats versus Democrats.

[Chris d'Aluzio]

Right.

[Michael McFaul]

That's the title of my last book. We knew who was on what side and we were always on the side of the democracies and the democracies were around us. And, and that's the way the world was divided. When, when we're looking like we're conducting a war, like Putin, we lose the small d Democrats around the world. I'm not talking about just, you know, in the region, around the world that looks at us and says, you know, these great powers, they just all behave alike. And the one great power that we're also helping is China, because China is not behaving this way. And so we may not care about what people in Africa or Latin America or the Middle east or East Asia think. The Trump administration, I want to be clear. I know we all care. They may not care, but in terms of America's long term objectives, this sets us way, way back.

[Jen Psaki]

Ambassador McFaul, you give us so much to think about. As always, thank you so much. Ben Rhodes, I'm keeping you where you are just for another couple minutes through a break. Thank you again for staying with me. I want to ask you about the wave of electoral momentum Democrats are riding right now, coinciding with these huge cracks in Trump's base over this war with Iran. This is not what a lot of people thought they were voting for. We'll be right back. We'll talk about that.

[OnDeck Advertiser]

Cash flow crunch on Deck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent press pricing and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply [e-mail] funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondac does not lend in North Dakota. All loans in amount subject to lender approval.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

It's tax season, and at LifeLock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to billions. That's the amount of money in refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number. 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.comspecialoffer for the threats you can't control.

[Factor Meals Advertiser]

Terms apply Pro Athletes don't spend their time meal prepping. They eat smart, train hard and recover fast. Factor makes it easy with dietitian designed chef prepared meals built to fuel your performance. Choose from high protein calorie, smart, GLP1 support and vegetarian options designed by nutrition experts to support strength and recovery. Train Like a Pro. Eat like a Pro Right now go to FactorMeals.com healthy50off and use code healthy50off for 50% off and free breakfast for a year. That's FactorMeals.com healthy50OFF code healthy50OFF.

[Jen Psaki]

Democrats are riding a wave of electoral success right now. We saw it again last night and it's happening as Trump's base is basically busy fighting amongst themselves. I mean, Republicans like Lindsey Graham are clearly over the moon now that Trump is carrying out their long held neocon fever dreams of regime change wars around the world. But former Fox host Megyn Kelly went on her radio show and absolutely lost it about Graham. This guy is a homicidal maniac with a bloodlust that is insatiable. He wants us. He got us into the Iranian war. Lindsey Graham. But this guy should be nowhere near President Trump. He should not be allowed within 20ft of the President's orbit, and the President should make the decision to keep this guy the hell away from him. So there's that. And even lots of bro podcasters with reach beyond Trump diehards are feeling some buyer's remorse here.

[Suha Subramaniam]

It just seems so insane based on what he ran on. I mean, this is why a lot of people feel betrayed, right? He ran on no more wars and these stupid senseless wars. And then we have one that we can't even really clearly define why we did it.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, Joe Rogan, we're beginning to agree on a lot more as the time goes by. And then of course There's Vice President J.D. vance, who helped sell the lie that this was the pro peace ticket and who is now caught right in the middle of this mess. And suddenly JD Vance has kind of gone mia. He hasn't said a ton since the earliest days of this war, and that's probably because he knows it's really hard to defend it without pissing off a huge chunk of the base he's gonna need in 2028. That's the J.D. vance thought bubble, I'm telling you. Former Deputy National Security Advisor to President Obama Ben Rhodes is back with me. Okay, the MAGA infighting here is pretty predictable, I think. But what do you think, cuz? You've had to be in the sit room and make really consequential national security decisions. But you've also thought about the politics. What do you think the long term impact will be? We're seeing it on the campaign trail. What do you think?

[Pete Hegseth]

Look, I truly believe that the political consequences for them are gonna be absolutely catastrophic, Jen. And there's a reason why you hear these voices being raised. Anti war politics. The idea that, you know, we were in too many forever wars, we're spending all this money in the Middle East. We need Americ first policies at focus at home. That was not a feature. That was not a bug of maga. That was a feature. Right. This was a foundational part of Trump's politics. He became the Republican nominee in 2016 in part because he completely eviscerated Jeb Bush on stage in a way that none of the other Republicans were for the war in Iraq that George W. Bush's brother had waged. That's why he became the leader of the Republican Party. Bear in mind that Lindsey Graham, who currently looks like a kid in an ice cream store with endless toppings, he's so excited about the next war. Lindsey Graham got not even 1% in that 2016 primary. The American people are absolutely sick of this. Now, I think Trump's been pretty dishonest and presenting himself as a peace candidate. But the reality is now everybody can see this war checks every box that Americans don't like. Why are service members dying overseas for something we don't understand? Why are we spending a billion dollars a day on this when I can't afford things back home? Why is Donald Trump spending time on this instead of spending time on the things I care about? I mean, this thing is going to be devastating for them.

[Jen Psaki]

Ben Rhodes. I'll also just end with reminding people, which you and I both remember, that one of the reasons Barack Obama became the nominee was in part because of his opposition to the Iraq war, when others in the race, we're for it. So it can play on all sides

[Pete Hegseth]

of the politics without the Iraq war. Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

There you go. Ben Rhodes, thank you so much. It's great to see you.

[Pete Hegseth]

Good to see you, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

All right, here's how the Daily Beast put this piece of news in a headline today. Epstein Accountant spills Bombshell Payout to alleged Trump Victim. Quite a headline. What's the full story here? Lucky for us, I have the perfect person to ask. A Democratic lawmaker who was inside the deposition with the Epstein accountant today joins me next.

[OnDeck Advertiser]

Need to restock inventory, cover seasonal dips, or manage payroll. Ondeck's Small business line of credit provides immediate access to funds up to $200,000 exactly when your business needs it. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and full control over repayment, you can tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. Apply [e-mail] and funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic. Bank on Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amount subject to lender approval. Why have we asked our contractor we found on Angie.com to be our kid's legal guardian? Because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids.

[Suha Subramaniam]

Uh, we only met a month ago. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust, find pros for all your home [e-mail] Imagine relying on

[LifeLock Advertiser]

a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected,

[Chris d'Aluzio]

and each one more expensive and more

[Jen Psaki]

complicated than the last.

[Chris d'Aluzio]

It's can be pretty stressful.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail] that's odoo.com.

[Jen Psaki]

So today Jeffrey Epstein's former accountant, who is now executor of the Epstein estate, testified before the House Oversight Committee. In his sworn testimony, Richard Kahn claimed that he was not aware of the nature or extent of Epstein's crimes until after his death. Now, we are still waiting for a transcript of the closed door hearing to see for ourselves everything that was discussed during Kahn's testimony today. Which means that for now, what we know about it comes from committee members who were there, who spoke, spoke afterwards. And one of those details you may have heard about. According to Democratic Congressman Suha Subramaniam, among the things revealed today was that a Trump accuser received money from the survivor fund that Khan manages. Now, on its face, that is an explosive claim. It's not a claim happening, I should acknowledge, in a vacuum. I mean, according to documents initially withheld by the Department of Justice, the FBI did interview at least one Epstein accuser who also told the FBI that Donald Trump sexually abused her when she was a minor. We don't know if this accuser is the one who got a settlement. Trump, of course, has maintained he has done nothing wrong. Of course, there's a lot we also don't know about the settlement, including whether it would make sense for the Epstein estate to take any action on Trump's behalf. And we won't know more about how it was discussed until we get the transcript. But until then, I have the perfect person to ask about it. Joining me now is the Democratic congressman I just mentioned. He's a member of the House Oversight Committee, Suha Subramaniam. Thank you for being here. You've had quite a day. Nothing like it. Let me start by asking you this. I mean, you used the word, the term Trump accuser, but did you learn anything through the course of today's deposition that the settlement has anything to do with Trump specifically?

[Suha Subramaniam]

Not specifically. And actually now Khan's lawyer is backtracking, saying that there wasn't a settlement. And now we have a lot of

[Jen Psaki]

questions about not a settlement at all.

[Suha Subramaniam]

Yeah, and now we have a lot of questions because he said yes in the deposition. So did he misunderstand the question? Did he lie? We have a lot of questions about that. So that's our first thing that we're trying to sift through. And then he was talking about how great the settlement program was. But a lot of the survivors have mentioned that they've withheld a lot of money because they get to get paid out themselves, all of the remainder. Khan and Endyke, his lawyer, too. And so there's a lot of conflicts of interest. The fox guarding the henhouse as the lawyer for the survivors mentioned.

[Jen Psaki]

So we don't know if there's actually was a settlement. There were certainly many paid out by Epstein. One of the questions and I just mentioned this was kind of, why would the Epstein estate pay out a settlement on behalf of Trump?

[Suha Subramaniam]

We don't know. I mean, it could have been that Epstein committed a crime himself against them, and so that's why they were paying out a settlement. We don't know. But we got mixed answers. We got an answer, one answer in the deposition, another answer from the lawyer later on in a statement. So we want to get to the bottom of that. We're going to continue to investigate that in a more detailed way.

[Jen Psaki]

What happens next with that? Because you just had all of this time asking, and then you get a strange, as you said, follow up from the lawyer. How do you get more information?

[Suha Subramaniam]

We're gonna continue our investigation. Obviously, we want all the documents. We're not getting that from the Trump administration. So we're gonna bring in Pam Bondi, who has the documents. We're gonna bring in other people in the administration and Other people who have knowledge of all of this. Like Ndyke, the lawyer who's coming next week.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, that's interesting. So that's one of, that's one of the people you're gonna be deposing next. Who else is on the list? How do you follow the money? Because the money, that's kind of one of the stories around this too is the people who enabled Epstein to have the money that he had and how he could pay these settlements. So you have tell me again the list of the next couple of group of people.

[Suha Subramaniam]

Yeah. So Khan, the accountant mentioned five major clients, people we've heard before, like Leon Black, Les Wexner. You mentioned Ego Barak, though, the former Israeli prime minister multiple times as having entrenched interests. Remember Virginia Giuffre had said that she was basically raped by a former Israeli prime minister. So we have some questions for him now too. But what Khan did was he really laid out the sort of mechanics, the infrastructure around Jeffrey Epstein. And this is not unique to Jeffrey Epstein. A lot of billionaires have this infrastructure around them and it was essentially enabled him to commit these crimes. What, there's no Khan, there's no Endyke, there's no Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking ring.

[Jen Psaki]

The money is where a lot of the answers will be. Congressman, thank you for being here after a long day. Really appreciate it.

[Suha Subramaniam]

Thank you.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay, up next, Emma Snow's Alex Tabat just sat down with a group of veterans in Miami tonight for a fascinating conversation about Donald Trump's war of choice with Iran. And we're gonna show you what they said and talk about it with Iraq veteran and congressman Chris d'. Aluzio. We'll be right back. Earlier tonight, in an American Legion post in South Miami, msnow political reporter Alex Tabit sat down with seven veterans. And many of them were veterans who sought combat, many of them Trump voters, all of whom very candidly expressed their contrasting views on Trump's war with Iran. Take a look at how it started.

[Suha Subramaniam]

We are almost two weeks into the war in Iran. When you think about this war, what is the first word that comes to your mind?

[Pete Hegseth]

Iraq.

[Jen Psaki]

It should have happened in 79. Sadness for loss of life.

[Suha Subramaniam]

Predictable.

[Jen Psaki]

Pointless. Power.

[Suha Subramaniam]

Strength.

[Jen Psaki]

It's quite a mix. Now I want you to watch the reactions to Trump's 2024 campaign. Promise that as president he would not get America embroiled in war is a promise that seems hard to square with where we are now.

[Donald Trump]

They said he will start a war. I'm not going to start a war. I'm going to stop wars. But I will tell you, you're not going to have a war with me and you're not going to have a third world war with me. That I can tell you.

[Suha Subramaniam]

Where's he lying at?

[Donald Trump]

He's not lying.

[Jen Psaki]

I don't see a third world war anywhere. I don't see a war anywhere. It's surgical strikes on enemy targets. It's an operation, or as Trump called, an excursion. It's a war for Iran.

[Suha Subramaniam]

It is not war for us.

[Michael McFaul]

So if Trump put boots on the ground, does that make it a war? If.

[Jen Psaki]

No, absolutely not. Now, for one of the seven veterans who started out this session by saying he supports Trump's actions in Iran, the possibility of deploying American troops in Iran is when that support seemed to begin to waver. Take a listen.

[Suha Subramaniam]

If there are boots on the ground, does that change your opinion of this war?

[Pete Hegseth]

I don't know.

[Suha Subramaniam]

That's a tough question because I was the boots on the ground for, let's be honest, a war we were misled into.

[Jen Psaki]

Same here.

[Suha Subramaniam]

And an entire generation of my class in albios, you know, watched our friends die. I don't have the answer. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is.

[Jen Psaki]

Such an interesting, important conversation led by MSNOW's Alex Tabitt and what I think is probably happening among many veterans out there. And joining me now is Congressman Chris d'. Aluzio. He's an Iraq War veteran, a member of the House Armed Services Committee. Congressman, those were short snippets from a very long, often contentious, which I don't think you'll be surprised by, conversations. I'm curious to know whether you and friends of yours who are veterans, maybe some who maybe supported Vice President Harris and maybe some who supported Trump, or maybe some who aren't political at all, if that reflects some of the conversations you might be having right now.

[Chris d'Aluzio]

I bet you if you went into a VFW or allegiant post in my part of the world in western Pennsylvania, you'd hear some pretty similar conversations. My fellow veterans from my generation, the Iraq or Afghanistan Veterans Post 911 Grappling with the same questions, I think so many of us see something similar about the decision, the foolish decision to go to Iraq and what that meant for American lives, the trillions spent and seeing this president bumble into a war that he didn't have to fight, looking for justifications, looking for reasons. And the one thing that I think you will see consistent when you have veterans all over the political map Talking about this war, they know that it is the brothers and sisters in arms today who will bear the cost of it. Seven already dead, sadly, of our troops coming back home in flag draped caskets. So that cost is substantial. It is real. And veterans, no matter their politics, understand that point very, very deeply.

[Jen Psaki]

I've talked a little bit about this, but it seems like there is to me a very flippant way that President Trump is talking about the use of military force and sending our men and women overseas. He's calling it. He's called it a war. Sometimes he calls it an operation. He's been calling it an excursion lately, which I find to be deeply flippant. When you talk to these veterans and their families in western Pennsylvania or other veterans in other parts of the country, and not even in a political way, what strikes them about the way that Trump and the administration are talking about this? And really one of the most difficult decisions any commander in chief should be making.

[Chris d'Aluzio]

Look, I think he shows time and time again that he doesn't understand the gravity of that decision. The fact that this is a man who avoided his own time to serve in Vietnam is something that hits pretty deep for a lot of veterans, especially the Vietnam generation, the folks who couldn't buy their way out of serving or find a doctor to give them a note to get out of serving. Right. That was a. There's a real class element to that. And Donald Trump certainly was a guy who had the connections to get out of serving. And so to hear over his time, not just as president now, but before, where he has disparaged the service of others, and now as his press secretary and Secretary of defense, saying the media is making the president look bad for talking about the fallen American troops, man, it is a dereliction of the responsibility that comes from never wasting American lives and war when you don't have to.

[Jen Psaki]

In a very different context, although it's all related, before we attacked the United States, the president attacked Iran, you took part in a video message to members of the military. You and I have talked about this before. I've talked to a number of your colleagues about it before. Kind of reminding them that they can refuse to obey illegal orders. As you're watching, what is happening now, how does that message apply to what you think the men and women who are being asked to serve, people from the best military in the world are being asked to serve for a war this administration, administration really hasn't explained. How does it apply to Iran?

[Chris d'Aluzio]

You know, look, I think at the core of that message is one about the Constitution. That is the thing. That is the oath we take. It's to the Constitution. It is at the core of military service, at the core of our government. And I see this president foolishly and recklessly putting us into a war, but also without coming to Congress. We had a War Powers resolution vote that failed. I think that was a grave mistake by the representatives and senators who didn't vote to put a stop to this. It is the American people who decide whether we send our troops to fight. American people haven't decided. And I've seen lots of polling. I'm sure you've seen it and talked about it. Jen, Most Americans don't want this war. They don't support it. And that is exceedingly rare to see the start of a war already with the American people opposed. That's not typically what happens. We don't send our troops in without the country backing the fight. And the American people don't want this war. And I think they're right to push back on the justifications that are constantly changing on the Trump administration for why they did this in the first place.

[Jen Psaki]

Congressman, I always think, I've long thought that people with national security backgrounds add so much are invaluable to the conversation. And I think in this moment, having voices like yours and others to help really break through what's happening is just so important. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

[Chris d'Aluzio]

Thanks, Jean.

[Jen Psaki]

We have to sneak in a quick break, but Lawrence of Senator Jon Ossoff standing by and we're going to be right back. That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on Ms. Now. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.

[Suha Subramaniam]

Why have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster Nibbles in our yard for me? Because I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet Nibbles after his untimely end.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Huh?

[Suha Subramaniam]

Nibbles gone too soon. May he scurry in peace.

[Donald Trump]

Hey, sorry about your pet, but I just wire stuff.

[Suha Subramaniam]

Nibbles would have loved you like a brother. Connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail].