Bigger than Kimmel: Psaki shows what's really behind the comedian's suspension

Summary

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The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode: "Bigger than Kimmel: Psaki shows what's really behind the comedian's suspension"

Date: September 19, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki, MSNBC

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Episode Overview

Jen Psaki tackles the underlying motives and far-reaching consequences behind ABC's indefinite suspension of comedian Jimmy Kimmel, dissecting why this issue extends beyond one late-night host. Through sharp analysis and expert interviews, Psaki unpacks how Trump-era politics, the FCC, and major media conglomerates collide in the suppression of dissent and the consolidation of media power. With guest insights from Reps. Robert Garcia and Maxwell Frost, activist Stacey Abrams, and dissident Garry Kasparov, this episode connects current events to global authoritarian trends and offers paths for resistance.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The Real Story Behind the Kimmel Suspension

[01:08]–[05:38]

• Opening Context:
  Psaki wonders “If Jimmy Kimmel had a show tonight...” and mocks Trump’s gaffes, highlighting that late-night comedy holds power precisely because it satirizes leadership (“You are in fact allowed to [criticize the President], actually.” – Jen Psaki, [05:38]).
• Trigger Event:
  Kimmel’s show was pulled after Trump and his FCC Chair suggested (publicly) that networks “should have [their] license taken away” for criticism ([04:27] Trump).
• Deeper Implications:
  Psaki ties the decision not to Kimmel’s monologue content but to a climate of intimidation from the White House and the leverage the FCC holds over networks seeking regulatory favors.

Notable Quote

• “I mean, Trump is basically saying, there sure is a nice network TV station you have there. Would be a shame if something bad were to happen to it...”
  — Jen Psaki, [05:01]

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2. Media Power, Corporate Consolidation, and Political Pressure

[05:38]–[13:22]

• Business Dynamics:
  Nexstar and Sinclair, giant media conglomerates owning hundreds of local stations, called for Kimmel’s ouster—coincidentally while seeking multi-billion dollar mergers requiring FCC approval.
  “They have a $6 billion reason to stay in the good graces of Trump and his hand-picked guy at the FCC.” ([05:38]–[08:59], Psaki)
• Sinclair as Precedent:
  Recounts Sinclair’s 2018 mandated politically slanted scripts—showing what happens when local journalism loses independence ([08:59]–[09:31]).
• Broad Networks:
  Trump cronies now influence or control not just TV news (via Nexstar, Sinclair, Ellison’s acquisition of Paramount and attempt for Warner Brothers Discovery/ CNN), but also major social media platforms (Oracle, Twitter, TikTok).
• Broader Impact:
  Public radio (e.g., WPSU) and BBC/NPR stations shutter as pro-Trump outlets fill “news deserts” ([12:28]), centralizing information further.
• State Media Atmosphere:
  Press briefings increasingly favor sycophantic queries, undermining journalistic accountability ([13:22]–[14:02]).

Notable Quotes

• “This story is way bigger than Jimmy Kimmel. Trump is using his power as president to help the people who are willing to do what he wants, control more and more of America’s media...”
  — Jen Psaki, [11:37]
• “It creeps me out every time I see it. It feels like it’s from some sort of AI horror right wing movie...”
  — Jen Psaki on Sinclair's propaganda, [09:31]

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3. Congressional Pushback and the Machinery of Oversight

Interview with Reps. Maxwell Frost & Robert Garcia — [18:20]–[25:54]

• Oversight Investigation:
  The House Oversight Committee launches a probe into ABC, Sinclair, and the FCC for “potentially violating the First Amendment” ([18:20]–[21:07]).
• Corporate Self-Interest:
  Garcia and Frost assert that conglomerates caved not for principles, but to preserve lucrative deals dependent on FCC and DOJ goodwill.
• Bipartisan Tension:
  Efforts to get FCC Chair Carr to testify are underway; some Republicans cooperate as pressure grows from constituents on issues like the Epstein files ([22:39], [25:54]).
• Pattern of Authoritarian Drift:
  Both representatives echo concerns about slow, incremental rights erosion:

  “It’s a slow trickle of taking away rights... until one day you wake up and ask, ‘where have our rights gone?’”
  — Rep. Garcia, [24:25]

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4. What Can Citizens Do? Lessons From Organizers

Interview with Stacey Abrams — [28:13]–[34:26]

• US Hitting Every "Step" to Authoritarianism:
  Abrams’ “10 Steps to Autocracy” campaign argues all benchmarks of democratic erosion are now met in America ([30:33]).
• Actionable Steps:
  She advocates awareness, organizing, mobilizing (including boycotts like “Cancel Disney+” trending in protest), litigation, and electoral engagement.
• Small Actions Matter:
  “Pick one thing, call a few friends. It doesn’t have to be an enormous thing. It starts with one step.”
  — Stacey Abrams, [34:26]

Notable Quotes

• “We are in the middle of a hostile government takeover... but that we still have a way out, and we can’t find our way out if we don’t acknowledge where we are.”
  — Stacey Abrams, [30:33]
• “There are 10 steps to freedom and power.”
  — Stacey Abrams, [32:18]

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5. Global Perspective: Early Warnings from Authoritarian States

Interview with Garry Kasparov — [40:32]–[45:00]

• Comedy as a First Target:
  Kasparov links the shuttering of Russia’s 1990s puppet show satire “Kukli” (which mocked Yeltsin and early Putin) to today’s crackdown on American late-night hosts.

• How Authoritarianism Creep Works:
  Erosion is gradual: “It’s like death by a thousand cuts... under the disguise of legality and, of course, ‘public interest.’” ([42:05])

• The Warning for Americans:
  Cautions not to rely on “the Constitution defending itself”—calls for mass mobilization, especially targeting Congress, the true lever against executive overreach:

  “The Constitution offers a good foundation to fight back for our freedom. But unless we recognize this is an existential... threat to American democracy, nothing will happen.”
  — Garry Kasparov, [42:05]

• Advice on Next Steps:
  Direct action (calls, pressure) on Congress, not just consumer boycotts.

Notable Quotes

• “Donald Trump doesn’t lose elections. Donald Trump doesn’t accept bad numbers. So even if the majority of the country voting one way, Donald Trump will not accept it.”
  — Garry Kasparov, [43:59]
• “Start making calls. Turn their [Congress’] lives into hell and make sure that they hear the voice of people.”
  — Garry Kasparov, [44:13]

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Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• “It is pronounced Azerbaijan, sir, and I think you meant Armenia, not Albania. But listen, you’re only the leader of the free world. Good try.”
  — Jen Psaki, [01:39]

• “We're going to be reducing drug costs over the next year, year and a half, by not 50 or 60%, by 1000%. ...Math is hard.”
  — Donald Trump, [02:43] / Jen Psaki, [03:13]

• “These companies can... take action, frankly on Kimmel, or there's going to be additional work ahead for... the FCC.”
  — FCC Chair Brendan Carr, paraphrased by Psaki, [06:53]

• “You might know them as your local CBS station or ABC station, but most of the time those stations are not actually independent. They are owned by a conglomerate...”
  — Jen Psaki, [07:28]

• “Our greatest responsibility is to serve our Treasure Valley communities … We are extremely proud of the quality, balanced journalism…” [reciting Sinclair’s mandated script]
  — Jen Psaki & Garry Kasparov et al., [08:59]–[09:31]

• “This is the most corrupt president and administration in the history of the United States. And we have to say, enough.”
  — Rep. Robert Garcia, [23:28]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:08] Jen Psaki introduces the Kimmel suspension and Trump’s role.
• [02:43] Trump’s “1000%” drug price gaffe.
• [04:27], [05:26] Trump floats revoking network licenses; defines dissent as un-American.
• [07:28] Psaki explains Nexstar and Sinclair's business leverage.
• [09:31] Example of Sinclair’s 2018 forced anchor script.
• [13:22] Psaki spotlights state-media-like sycophancy in White House briefings.
• [18:20] Interview: Garcia and Frost on House Oversight investigation.
• [25:54] Garcia and Frost explain slow, incremental nature of democratic erosion.
• [28:13] Psaki previews public pushback/ boycotts after Disney/ABC moves.
• [30:33] Interview: Stacey Abrams on 10 Steps to Autocracy.
• [40:32] Interview: Garry Kasparov draws parallels to Russian media crackdowns.
• [43:59] Kasparov warns of the danger to U.S. elections and democracy.

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Insights & Takeaways

• The apparent singular incident of Jimmy Kimmel’s suspension is a microcosm of a much larger authoritarian trend—leveraging regulatory, market, and legal pressure to silence critical voices across media.
• Structural consolidation of media (via Nexstar, Sinclair, Ellison's acquisition sprees) enables centralized control of local and national information.
• Crises are not about singular, flashy moments but incremental erosion—a “death by a thousand cuts.”
• U.S. democracy’s defense depends not on passive faith in the Constitution, but active engagement: organizing, pressuring Congress, supporting independent media, and refusing normalization.

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Conclusion

Jen Psaki, with guests from Congress and international activism, persuasively argues that the current media crackdown is symptomatic of a broader autocratic shift. The Kimmel incident is a warning shot, not a one-off. As history shows, when power is consolidated and dissent is censored—even if through slow, “legal” means—the survival of free expression and democracy depends on everyday action, vigilance, and organized resistance.

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For Listeners Wanting Action

• Learn and share: Visit resources like 10StepsCampaign.org (via Stacey Abrams) for both diagnostics and action steps.
• Contact Congress: Pressure your representatives—remind them their job is accountability, not complicity.
• Support independent journalism in your community.
• Refuse normalization—recognize early signs, act before it’s too late.

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Transcript

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[Jen Psaki]

Here's something I've been thinking about today. If Jimmy Kimmel had a show tonight, if his show had not been indefinitely pulled off the air by abc, he would have had plenty of material to work with. I mean, he might have played this valiant effort by President Trump. That's being generous to pronounce the name of a country.

[Donald Trump]

To think that we settled Azerbaijan and Albania as an example. It was going on for years.

[Jen Psaki]

Close. Sort of. It is pronounced Azerbaijan, sir, and I think you meant Armenia, not Albania. But listen, you're only the leader of the free world. Good try. If Kimmel had a show tonight, he might also have had some fun with his back and forth between Trump and a reporter over the UK's ambassador to the US having just been fired over his ties to Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein, the elephant in the room. Lord Mandelson. He is no longer the ambassador. Do you have some sympathy with him that he lost his job over historic links to Jeffrey Epstein? Thank you very much, sir.

[Donald Trump]

I don't know him, actually. I had heard that and I think maybe the Prime Minister would be better. Speaking of that.

[Jen Psaki]

You know a question about my former bff, the sexual predator Jeffrey Epstein. What could I possibly add there? Over to you, Prime Minister, who has nothing to do with this, really. Jimmy Kimmel might have had a lot of fun with that one too. Or with this incredible display of mathematical wizardry, I guess you could call it.

[Donald Trump]

We're going to be reducing drug costs over the next year, year and a half, by not 50 or 60%, by 1000%. Because if you think a $10 pill going, so it'll be raised up from 10 to 20 because it's the world versus us. So the world is a bigger place. So it'll go from 10 to 20. It won't go from 10 to 50 or 60 for them, which is bearable, and it'll go from 10 to 20 for us.

[Jen Psaki]

I have no idea what just happened there. I guess math is hard. Who knows? Look, Trump did a lot of stuff you could mock him for just today, just in the last 24, less than 24 hours. And that is a huge part of what Jimmy Kimmel did on his show and a huge part of why Trump went after him. And when the story broke just yesterday, the assumption was that ABC suspended Kimmel because of his comments about maga's reaction to Charlie Kirk's killer. But it sure seems like it might be just a bit more complicated than that. I mean, yesterday, Rolling Stone reported that according to two sources familiar with the matter, multiple executives within ABC felt that Kimmel had not actually said anything over the line, but that the threat of Trump administration retaliation loomed. Well, there you have it. So maybe this one wasn't entirely about or really about one Kimmel monologue. Maybe this was about Trump not liking being made fun of, Trump not being able to stand being criticized and him using the power of the presidency and his hand picked FCC chairman, by the way, following his lead and cracking down on shows he doesn't like. It's not even just me saying that. That is not just my interpretation of the news of the past 24 hours. I mean, today on Air Force One, Trump basically said the quiet part out loud.

[Donald Trump]

Host is on network television. There is a licensing. I'll give you an example. I read someplace that the networks were 97% against me. I get 97% negative. And yet I won it easily. I won all seven swing states popular. I won everything. And if they're 97% against, they give me only bad publicity or press. I mean, they're getting a license. I would think maybe their license should be taken away.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, Trump is basically saying, there sure is a nice network TV station you have there. Would be a shame if something bad were to happen to it would be a shame if that guy over at the FCC had to take your license away because you said negative things about me. That would be a shame. And that wasn't just Trump misspeaking. I mean, minutes later he said basically the same thing again, but almost clearer.

[Donald Trump]

When you go back and take a Look, all they do is hit Trump. They're licensed. They're not allowed to do that. They're an arm of the Democrat Party.

[Jen Psaki]

Actually, the right to criticize the President is pretty key to what being an American means. You are in fact allowed to do that, actually. And believe me, every president back to the beginning of late night television can tell you that, that if you do something stupid or you do something embarrassing or absurd, you are going to be made fun of. That's what late night hosts do, that's what comedians do. But this administration obviously sees things very differently. Now, yesterday, hours before Kimmel got suspended, Trump's FCC chair Brendan Carr went on a right wing podcast and said, quote, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change conduct and take action, frankly on Kimmel, or there's going to be additional work ahead for work for the FCC ahead. Carr went on to specifically call for affiliate stations that carry ABC's programming to push for Kimmel's ouster. And sure enough, they did. Next are on Sinclair Media, two companies you may have never heard of, maybe you have heard of them, pushed for Kimmel to be taken off the air, claiming they were offended by his comments. Those companies pushing ABC are reportedly why ABC suspended Kimmel. Now, while you may have never heard of nexstar or Sinclair Media, you have likely seen their content, almost definitely. They are the two biggest affiliate groups in the United States, meaning they own hundreds of local TV stations around the country. The stations typically have other brand names. I mean, you might know them as your local CBS station or ABC station, but most of the time those stations are not actually independent. They are owned by a conglomerate like nexstar or Sinclair. Now, in the case of nexstar, it is pretty easy to see what Trump's FCC chairs threat. His we can do this the easy way or the hard way comments could be about because a month ago, nextstar announced that it had struck a deal to buy another affiliate TV station network called Tanga for $6.2 billion. If the deal closes, Nexstar would oversee 265 local TV stations in 44 states, making it the biggest owner of TV stations by far in the country. I mean, the company would literally be in control of local news stations reaching 80% of households in the country. But not only does that $6 billion deal require FCC approval, not only does Trump's FCC chief Brendan Carr. We can do this the easy way or the hard way. Brendan Carr have to sign off on that deal or it can't happen. But the FCC would literally have to rewrite its own rules to let one network own that many stations for good reason. So basically they have a $6 billion reason to stay in the good graces of Trump and his hand picked guy at the fcc. That's a pretty big reason. Again, nexstar claims that they called for Jimmy Kimmel's ouster simply because they were outraged by his comments. But you can make a judgment on whether that's the full story for yourself. I clearly have a view on that. Now the other group that called for Kimmel's ouster, Sinclair Media, is a great example of why it is not a great idea for any one media conglomerate to own that many of our nation's local TV news stations. I mean do you remember when Sinclair got caught making all of their anchors read the same script back in 2018? Our greatest responsibility is to serve our Treasure Valley communities, the El Paso Las Cruces communities, Eastern Iowa communities, Mid Michigan communities. We are extremely proud of the quality balanced journalism that CBS4 News produces.

[Garry Kasparov]

But we are concerned about trouble and.

[Jen Psaki]

Trying irresponsible one sided news stories plaguing our country. The sharing of biased and false news.

[Garry Kasparov]

False news has become all too common.

[Jen Psaki]

Comment on social media. Unfortunately, some members of Brazil use their.

[Maxwell Frost]

Platforms to push their own personal bias and agenda to control it.

[Garry Kasparov]

Exactly what people think and this is.

[Maxwell Frost]

Extremely dangerous to our democracy.

[Jen Psaki]

It creeps me out every time I see it. It feels like it's from some sort of AI horror right wing movie. The issue is of course not just that Sinclair has trusted local anchors all across the country, people everybody trusts in their communities saying the same things. It's that their cookie cutter scripts are notably conservative. A 2018 study by American Political Science Review showed that when the company buys a local station, its coverage of national politics increases significantly, as does its shift to the right. It's not just local TV news where this kind of thing is happening. I mean, the executive chair of Sinclair Broadcasting, a billionaire named David Smith, did the same same thing with the newspaper the Baltimore Sun. And last year the billionaire owners of both the Washington Post and the LA Times canceled their papers presidential endorsements. We all remember that after learning that their editorial boards were planning to endorse Kamala Harris. And now Trump is reportedly helping close a deal that would put conservative billionaire Larry Ellison's company Oracle, in control of the social media app TikTok in the United States. That would mean Trump allies would control both TikTok and Twitter, two of the most influential social media sites where A lot of people get their information in the country. By the way, Larry Ellison's son, David Ellison just bought Paramount, putting him in control of CBS News, which just months ago canceled Stephen Colbert's late night show and cleaned house at 60 minutes. So there's that. And now David Ellison is now looking to buy Warner Brothers Discovery, which would mean he would add CNN to the growing list of news outlets under his control. So, I mean, obviously no disrespect to Jimmy Kimmel when I say this, he's great, but this story is way bigger than Jimmy Kimmel. Trump is using his power as president to help the people who are willing to do what he wants, control more and more of America's media and the information you all receive, everybody receives in this country. And at the same time, Trump is using his power to punish the media outlets that don't do what he wants. I mean, this week we saw the first NPR station announce that Trump's budget cuts will mean they will have to fully shut down its. WPSU in Pennsylvania has broadcast out of Penn State since 1953. But now they have to close their doors. And as other NPR and BBS stations shudder because of Trump, they leave news deserts in the wake places where there are no local news outlets. Deserts that large conglomerate pro Trump media outlets could easily fill and may be eager to fill. Over at Voice of America, our nation's international public news arm, Trump has appointed this woman, MAGA Republican Carrie Lake, to run the agency. Here you can see Lake in an ad for her 2022 run for governor of Arizona, where she is literally, if you can tell, you can see it on the screen, taking a sledgehammer to the media as she went on to lose the election, of course, and then tried to overturn it by falsely claiming it was riddled with fraud. She runs our international public news agency now, that woman. Earlier this summer, Trump sued the Wall street journal for $10 billion for reporting on his ties to Jeffrey Epstein. This week, he sued the new $15 billion, saying the paper was purposefully trying to damage his reputation. Yesterday, the CEO of the New York Times, Meredith Caput Levine, responded. And here's what she said. She said that Trump was deploying an anti press playbook saying, quote, if you look at countries like Turkey and Hungary and India, those countries have elections, but they also really work to quash opposition to the regime. We have seen Trump's administration kick legitimate news outlets out of the Pentagon and completely reshape the White House press corps and those decisions, picking who is and isn't in the room to ask Trump and his administration questions. Those decisions may not be. They're not as headline grabbing as Jimmy Kimmel being sidelined, but they really matter. Because instead the White House press briefing room includes things like.

[Robert Garcia]

Do you think this latest incident with the President of.

[Maxwell Frost]

Colombia is indicative of the global powerful.

[Donald Trump]

Of respect they have for President Trump?

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you for taking my question. I wanted to first and foremost thank the administration for the election integrity Executive order. Thank you for making a sacrifice and dealing with some of the most disingenuous.

[Maxwell Frost]

People on planet earth.

[Robert Garcia]

At times it really is a testament not only to your open mindedness but also to innovation.

[Maxwell Frost]

So I do admire these moves by the current president.

[Jen Psaki]

I'll be honest.

[Maxwell Frost]

Given the heroic actions of a member of this administration just a few blocks.

[Jen Psaki]

From the building, will the president consider.

[Maxwell Frost]

Giving the Presidential Medal of Freedom to big balls?

[Jen Psaki]

Will you guys also consider releasing the president's fitness plan? He actually looks healthier than ever before. That's some weird state run media stuff going on there now. I'll tell you for sure. I never got questions like that when I was at the podium and Neither did Mike McCurry or Dana Perino or even Sean Spicer. But that is what Trump wants the press briefing to be. That is the goal. I mean, for example, on Monday, the New York Times published a drop about how Trump and his family and the family of his Middle east envoy Steve witkoff, got the UAE to invest $2 billion in their crypto coin and then turned around and used Trump's power as president to give the UAE access to hundreds of thousands of the world's most advanced and scarce computer chips. So on Tuesday, an Australian reporter at the White House asked this perfectly legitimate question about that story.

[Garry Kasparov]

It is appropriate, President Trump, that a.

[Donald Trump]

President in office should be engaged in.

[Garry Kasparov]

So much business activ.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I'm really not. My kids are running the business. I'm here. You know what the activity. Where are you from?

[Jen Psaki]

I'm from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, Four Corners Program.

[Donald Trump]

The Australians. You're hurting Australia, right? In my opinion, you are hurting Australia very much right now. And they want to get along with me. You know, your leader is coming over to see me very soon. I'm going to tell them about you. You set a very bad tone.

[Jen Psaki]

So that was Tuesday and today the network that journalist was from the Australian Broadcast Corporation was barred from Trump's UK press conference. The network says that British officials withdrew their accreditation because of, quote, logistical reasons. This is sort of a death by a thousand cuts situation right it's not that Trump is declaring he now controls all of the country's media. It's that slowly but surely through incentives and punishments, he is using the power of the presidency to bend one outlet after another to his will. And as terrifying as that is, and it is, it is important to remember that the president is not the only person with power in our country. We have a stacked show for you tonight with guests to help us understand how pushback can work here. What should you be doing? What should your neighbors be doing? We're going to talk to former Russian political activist and chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov about what we can learn from other countries where this has happened before. We're going to talk to Stacey Abrams about what ordinary citizens can do. And we're going to talk to Representatives Robert Garcia and Maxwell Frost about what Congress can do. They are standing by. And join me live in just 90 seconds.

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[Jen Psaki]

So today, two of the top Democrats on the House Oversight Committee initiated an investigation into the series of decisions that led to the ABC Television Network yanking Jimmy Kimmel's late night talk show off the air yesterday, seemingly at the behest of Donald Trump. Congressman Robert Garcia is the ranking member of that committee. Congressman Maxwell Frost is a member of that committee who's playing a leading role in this process. And both join me now. This was very rapid action. So let me just start there. You announced, let me start with you, Congressman. You announced today that as ranking, remember, you're launching an investigation, I just mentioned this, into abc, Sinclair and the FCC for potentially violating the First Amendment. Obviously, people watching have been following this closely, been trying to keep people up to date. But what is that? What information are you looking for and are you seeking most in that investigation?

[Maxwell Frost]

Absolutely. Let's be clear. Obviously, what happened to Charlie Kirk was horrific. We can all denounce that at the same time. This country has built the foundations of freedom of speech, the First Amendment, and it is completely outrageous that Donald Trump is going to interfere with the FCC to essentially yank a comedian on late night talk show during a monologue giving an opinion and cancel that show. And we've seen it with Stephen Colbert. He's now trying to go after other late night shows. Essentially, anyone that Donald Trump disagrees with, he wants to calm down that dissent, he wants to silence them. And what we're saying is that this is outrageous. And so it's our role in oversight to investigate abc, to investigate what's going on at Sinclair, to understand why the FCC is making the decisions and who made the call. And this is a point now where Donald Trump not only is attacking our institutions, he's attacking the media. And this is a dangerous moment for the country. So we're committed to push back, to fight back hard. And this investigation is going to be very important.

[Jen Psaki]

I just referenced this reporting from Rolling Stone yesterday where it said that a number of executives, or some executives, executives, didn't feel that he had crossed the line to the line, to the point of sidelining him at the same time. And I just tried to outline this and you can tell me what I missed. There are several business reasons. Nexstar is attempting to buy a huge number of local affiliates. There's reasons why that they would want to be in good graces of the FCC and Donald Trump. How much is that a part of what you're looking into? What questions do you have about that and that being a factor?

[Robert Garcia]

It's a huge factor and it's going to be a big part of this investigation. I mean, much like what's going on with the Epstein investigation. Right. We want to Follow the money. And when you follow the money, it's always painting a very similar picture. You brought up nexstar. They are right now trying to buy in the middle of an acquisition, their biggest competitor, $6 billion deal. Who has to approve that deal? The FCC and then change the rules.

[Jen Psaki]

Rules even.

[Robert Garcia]

Yep, yep. Same thing with Sinclair and same thing with Disney. Except Disney is looking to purchase fubu, which is going to go to the Department of Justice. Right. And that's going to be, that's part of this whole apparatus as well. So when we follow the money, we think we're going to get some answers there. I mean, it's very obvious that Sinclair, that next star, they were the first dominoes to fall here. And that part of the reason they did this is because they're looking out for their bottom line. Not for the First Amendment, not for the integrity of journalists, comedians, artists, the people they have on their channels, but for the bottom line of billionaires, which is directly connected to everything Donald Trump has done since he's gotten into office. Take away resources from the middle class, the working class, give it to billionaires and mega corporations. This is no different.

[Jen Psaki]

You've developed this sort of strange bedfellow situation, I guess I'll call it, around the push for the release of the Epstein files. You've worked with the chairman on that. You've also, it sounds like made some progress today on getting him to commit to calling FCC Chairman Carr before the committee, which is a pretty big development, I think. What do you have? I mean, this is the party, this is the thing, I think that is so hypocritical. One of the things, this is the party that was once the party of free speech. I mean, even Chairman Carr back in 2023 said, quote, free speech is the counterweight is the check on government control. That is why censorship is the authoritarian's dream. That was the guy who is now going after media companies. Do you think there is going to be potentially agreement among more Republicans on the committee to do more here that might surprise people?

[Maxwell Frost]

Well, look, we hope so. I mean, at the end of the day, I think what Chairman Comer and Republicans on oversight are learning is that this is an all new Democratic Party, this is an all new oversight committee made up of people that are going to bring the fight every single day. Whether it's on the Epstein files, whether it's attacks on the media, where there's attacks on our institutions and on the Epstein files, for example, we have outmaneuvered those Republicans on that committee every single time. And we did the same today. We essentially are forcing and working with Comer and pushing to get Chairman Carr in front of our committee. And he's agreed to that. I mean, he agreed to that publicly today in our committee. And so with the help of an incredible group of committee members, Maxwell actually leads one of our subcommittees. And we're actually going to do this work, taking on and getting answers from abc, from Sinclair, from nexstar. People need to understand that this is a dangerous moment in our country when the President of the United States can silence dissent, can take on media companies, essentially holds ransom. Right. He's holding these companies hostage. He knows the business that they're trying to do in front of the government. This is the most corrupt president and administration in the history of the United States. And we have to say, enough. We have to push back every single time. And that is a job of Congress, and it's certainly the job of the Oversight Committee.

[Jen Psaki]

You're going to be very dug into the weeds of this. You already are dug into the weeds of this. As we've all been trying to explain the story, and I tried to explain that it's much more than this. There is efforts to kind of change who's in the briefing room and who gets to ask questions. There are lawsuits against a range of media organizations. There's an effort to have his allies own tickets. TikTok and Twitter. Already they do. What are people missing? What should people understand that you're looking to dig into, as the leader of the subcommittee?

[Robert Garcia]

I think you just brought it up here, is that a lot of times when people are looking at what Donald Trump is doing, they're assuming that there's going to be one moment where everything happens, and rarely, especially in democracies, is that how authoritarians come to power. It's a slow trickle of taking away rights, a slow trickle of changing who's in the room, a slow, slow trickle of using the institutions against companies, against individuals, against organizations, against the government itself, members of Congress. And that continues to build up until one day you wake up and you ask, where have our rights gone? Where has everything gone? Why does the media all sound the same? And this is the problem. And so, you know, part of what we're asking people to do is, you know, follow along and work with us and continue to do what activists, organizers, people are doing in the streets, in their home districts is right. Rob just brought this up. We were talking about some Republicans working with us on the committee. It didn't start that way. Right. And a big reason I'll give you two reasons. Number one, it's the leadership of Robert Garcia and what we're doing on the committee pushing hard and putting them in difficult places. And then number two, when they go home, their own constituents are saying, do something on Epstein files. We don't care about if it's a Democratic or Republican thing. This is an American thing. We believe that people who, who do these crimes should be put away. We believe people should be held accountable. They got that message all August when they were home. And that's part of the reason why we're finding a little bit more cooperation here. And it's the same thing with this, too. I've seen people all align. Even conservatives say this is too far.

[Jen Psaki]

This is such an important point. I'm about to talk to Stacey Abrams about this. You were an activist before you were a member of Congress and this is such an important thing for people to hear. I also said this last time you were on it does matter who the ranking members are on committees. And I think for people who think that doesn't matter, it does matter. And you're a great example of that. Thank you both so much for being here. I hope you'll come back and keep us updated on this because we'll continue to cover this story closely. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Trump's next authoritarian flex is to threaten not just the media, but also people who organize those who are exercising their right to protest. It is all related. We're going to talk to seasoned activist Stacey Abrams about this. She joins me next about how to fight back.

[Laci Mosley]

What's poppin, listeners? I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess. The show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em? What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Jen Psaki]

One day after Trump's FCC puppet an accurate description, Brendan Carr responded to a question from media reporter Brian Stelter about ABC's ouster of Jimmy Kimmel with this GIF chairman Carr reiterated today that the consequences will continue to flow.

[Maxwell Frost]

We're going back to that era when.

[Garry Kasparov]

Local TV stations judging the public interest.

[Robert Garcia]

Get to decide what the American people think.

[Garry Kasparov]

I don't think this is the last shoe to drop. This is a massive shift that's taking place in the media ecosystem and I think the consequences are going to continue to flow.

[Jen Psaki]

Now, when he says a massive shift in the media ecosystem, what he really means is the FCC will dangle federal regulations and approvals over broadcasters in order to pressure them to cancel any content that Trump world doesn't like. If that sounds corrupt to you, if it sounds like the independent regulator of the and I put that in quotes, please, of the FCC is suggesting he will exert consequences on television networks that are critical of Trump. That's because he has every intention of doing exactly that. Trump may be president, but he is not all powerful and neither is Brendan Carr. So the question is, what now? Well, in the last 24 hours, there has been increasing chatter online about boycotting ABC's parent company Disney. According to Google Trends, the search term cancel Disney plus, the streaming service owned by Disney, has skyrocketed since the Kimmel announcement. It is still early and I don't know how many people will follow through on that or if that is what will prompt ABC to reconsider. But it leads to the question of what people like you can do at a moment like this. I have the perfect person to talk with. Joining me now is Stacey Abrams. She is the former Democratic minority leader in the Georgia House of of Representatives. She's also the founder of Fair Fight Action, as well as the host of the podcast Assembly Required. She's very busy. So let me start with this. I mean, you are Running a nationwide mobilization and education campaign, highlighting the 10 steps to autocracy and authoritarianism with one of the key pieces of the campaign, giving people actionable tools to engage and push back against what we are witnessing, which is so applicable in this moment. Because I think the question I often get is what should I do? What to do? Right. Even elected officials aren't entirely always sure. So, first of all, in your mind, what step are we at in that process?

[KPMG Advertiser]

We've actually hit all 10 steps. And Jen, thank you so much, not only for having me on, but for hosting this conversation. The 10 Steps campaign, and I encourage everyone to go to 10StepsCampaign.org is about the fact that we've now ticked every single one of the boxes. We've hit every one of the steps in authoritarianism. And let's be clear. Authoritarianism, autocracy, it simply refers to a system of government where the people in charge, whether it's one person or a small group of people, exert their power by suppressing individual freedoms, by taking away the rights of those who they do not believe are entitled to citizenship, entitled to full participation. And our first responsibility is to understand that that's where we are. You have gone through a litany of what's just happened in the last week, but let's think about the last eight months, and what we know is that we are in the middle of a hostile government takeover, as the TikTok song told us, but that we still have a way out, and we can't find our way out if we don't acknowledge where we are. And to your point, we have members of Congress who seem to think that we are still flirting with the edges instead of being in the belly of the beast.

[Jen Psaki]

We are definitely in the belly of the beast. And you're absolutely right. It's not just the last couple days. That's certainly been a reminder. It has been building, and it's not always one thing or one moment. It's a building of things. One of the questions and you sort of touched on this is like, what should people be doing? I touched on this earlier, too. I mean, I mentioned some of the chatter online about boycotting Disney. I guess that's, you know, people are Googling it. But when it comes to how Americans can push back against. Let's start with what we're seeing from Trump's fcc. What would you advise people to do? What does work? To push back?

[KPMG Advertiser]

Sure. So what we are watching with the fcc, what we are watching happen with Lisa Cook at the Federal Reserve. What we saw happen with the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. It's installing loyalists. And you can't install loyalists unless you get rid of the people actually willing to do the work. So step five is what we are seeing happen. Loyalists who do the bidding of the power, the bidding of the person in charge or the party in charge. And let's be clear. This is not just Donald Trump. This is Donald Trump and a Republican Party that is suborning his behavior. But we've got 10 things. If there are 10 steps to autocracy and authoritarianism, there are 10 steps to freedom and power. And at 10stepscampaign.org, we walk through them. First, your job is to commit to knowing what's going on. And that's hard. We have a native instinct to normalize what we see around us. To dismiss it or to think that, well, that doesn't bother me, doesn't affect me. Once we commit to knowing where we are, our second job is to share it with others. We have to organize. As Congressman Frost pointed out, you've got to organize people, make sure they know what you're talking about, and then you mobilize to do something about it. And part of mobilization is that we can deny them access to our resources and to our power. And that's what boycotts are. We can disrupt by going out and taking pictures, filming when we see ice roaming the streets. When you have a military occupation of the capital city, record it. Make certain they know we are watching. That's why protests matter so much. We can litigate, be a part of a lawsuit, but we can also elect and engage. We gotta make sure we're telling our leaders that we are not waiting for them to act. We are demanding that they act. Because the most important piece of understanding this is that this isn't going to be some grand cinematic moment like the end of the Avengers. This is going to be thousands of Americans and allies who decide every single day to do something somewhere soon. There are more of us than there are of them. And what they want is for us to forget that we have the power to shape our future. And it starts by demanding that they do their jobs. And if they won't do their jobs, they that we are going to make it hard for them to take our power away.

[Jen Psaki]

Such a powerful message. You've also told me before, pick one thing, call a few friends. It doesn't have to be an enormous thing. It starts with one step. Stacey Abrams, thank you so much for giving us some real steps and a place for resources. I think so many people out there need it. Now. We're going to take a quick break. After that, we're going to talk about what does this Russian puppet show tell us about the moment we're in right now? I promise you it's something I'll tell you when we come back. Okay? We always like to warn you when there's a video like this and I'm about to show you one that's a little bit disturbing, but not in the way that you might think. That's a little bit the stuff of nightmares. But that was a sketch from the 1999 Russian puppet comedy show called Kukli. The sketch depicts then Russian President Boris Yeltsin crying about the future of Russian democracy after he fathers a screaming demon baby version of his successor, Vladimir Putin. Yes, that is who that is, that screaming baby. The sketch was funny. I mean, it was irreverent and it was trenchant about Russia's future in the way that only good political satire can be in any country. Now, in the year 2000, just after Putin was officially inaugurated as president, the program ran another Putin sketch. This one imagined Russia in the year 2020 with Putin still in office and ordering raids on the shows parent company. Like I said, trenchant, the show correctly predicted that Putin would continue his hold on power in Russia 20 years later and then some. But the show underestimated how quickly Putin would go after his comedy critics. Now, not long after that sketch, the Kremlin pressured the network to take the show off the air. That might not come as a surprise today. After all, Russia is a state where freedom of speech is strictly limited, media censored by the state. And a number of Putin's critics have wound up dead. But at the time, Russia's future as an authoritarian state was not so certain. In an op ed today, Russian writer and chess legend Garry Kasparov writes about the comedy puppet show as an early casualty of Russia's censorship regime. Here's part of what he said in the Many of the Russian government's targets were never actually arrested or charged with any specific offense. Many more were never targeted at all. A few high profile people got shaken down and everyone else got the message. A general chill spread over the country's media, but it took a while to entirely freeze over. When a country begins to slide into authoritarianism, its leaders don't just come right out of the gate and start throwing people out of windows or poisoning them with novichok. They target their critics in more subtle ways. And their targets are not always opposition leaders or truth telling journalists. Often their targets are comedians who have the power to pierce a dictator's veil of invulnerability in ways that few others can. That's what comedians can do. You see evidence of it in regimes all over the world. I mean, in 2023, China fined a comedian more than $2 million for making a joke about the military that leaders said harmed society. Comedians in places like Iran and Malaysia and Kazakhstan are frequently targeted for undermining the state. Ivan When I joined the Obama State Department in 2013, one of the first international issues I remember the team dealing with was Egypt's attempts to censor a late night comedian named Bassam Youssef, who was being targeted with an investigation for comments he made on his program. That's why now our country's grappling with its own battle over freedom of expression. ABC has pulled late night host Jimmy Kimmel off the air indefinitely after criticism from Trump's FCC chair over comments Kimmel made over the death of Charlie Kirk. It follows a similar decision by Paramount to end the Late show with Stephen Colbert shortly after the Trump administration approved a merger for the show's parent company. Are those decisions early warning signs about the future of free expression in this country? Sure feels like it. And if so, what can we learn from other countries where freedom of expression has already been eroded? Gary Kasaroff joins me here to discuss next. Garry Kasparov is a Russian dissident, exile and chess grandmaster. He has seen authoritarianism with his own eyes, and this week he wrote this in his Substack newsletter, the next move. As demagogues go, Donald Trump is not especially original. A tragedy occurs. The leader starts pointing fingers and blames the other guy as a pretext for overreach. It's so formulaic that no TV show with this plot would ever have made it. Near this past weekend's Emmy, Kasparov warned that we should understand this for what it is, a threat to the American opposition's constitutionally protected free speech rights. But he also offered a sign of hope that the US May not suffer the same fate as Russia's slide into autocracy. He said, quote, russia had no democratic immune system to fight the virus. America does. We only need a little dose of hope right now. And joining us now is Garry Kasparov. That piece is excellent. I encourage everybody to read it. We can. We can share that too as well. But let me start by just asking. You brought up comedy as an early warning sign with the example of a puppet show depicting Vladimir Putin, which is Part of why we played it for the audience earlier, to help them understand this storyline, Putin forced was he forced them off the air early in his reign, of course, as I also mentioned. But how was that example, or the example of what you saw in Russia instructive of what we're seeing now and what's different? Because I think it's so important, as you mentioned in your piece about how there's a different instinct or ability in the United States, this show.

[Garry Kasparov]

And thanks very much for reminding me about this golden era in the history of my country. It was a very short period. It was a very feeble democracy. But the show was on air, I think for about six years. And they mocked Yeltsin and his authorities. And I think back in 1995, one of Yeltsin's cronies tried to shut them down and he was fired. And the first thing Putin did, he put him on the air by using the same coercion, you know, attacking the parent company and then taking it over. And that's very important to understand. You know, that's the moment you hear public interest, it should ring the bell. That's how the authoritarians use these very general terms that nobody can understand to advance their agenda. So when I hear this being repeated, public interest, public interest, public interest. I know what it's heading for.

[Jen Psaki]

That's such an important. That is a phrase that was used by the FCC chairman. What's in the public interest? Yesterday. And it's again, to your point, I think, how it is defined. Right. And they are defining it in their own terms. One of the interesting points you make, and I was talking with Stacey Abrams a little bit about a similar point earlier, is that there's. There's not some big moment that may happen. I mean, these crackdowns can have a slow burn. It can. Beit's not always a dramatic movie moment where journalists are being pushed off cliffs. It can be slower burning. We're clearly in it now. What are the conditions for people who are tuning into this, already scared about it, that allow these crackdowns to be successful? Maybe what allowed it to be successful in Russia?

[Garry Kasparov]

Look, it's a very important point. It's in Hollywood movies, you see the coup d', etat, tanks on the streets, journalists being arrested. Normally it's a slow burning process. It's like death by thousand cuts one by one. You know, just changing one paragraph in the law and moving the comma here or full stop here. You know, it' sand very often, you know, it's under the disguise of legality and of course, public interest, we have to protect it of public security. And it's just, you know, at one point you discover that, you know, just you are no longer, you know, having the same freedom you used to have. Of course, America, unlike Russia back then in 2000, has 250 years of Democratic tradition. But I think the big mistake people are making, and Stacey Evers pointed out, the Constitution doesn't defend itself. Constitution offers a good foundation to fight back for our freedom. But unless we recognize that this is an existential, I emphasize existential threat to American democracy. So nothing will happen. And it's not just simply mobilization to protect. I believe that the elections and midterm elections will not be just a normal midterm. It will be free, but most likely not fair. When you look at the latest actions of the administration, for instance, the performance of Keshe Patel at the hearings, insulting sitting senators tells you that he doesn't care about Constitution, about the Congress. He cares only about one person. They all, all Trump administration members, they address their boss. And I'm afraid, and actually I'm almost convinced that when the moment comes, they will not follow the Constitution but his orders. And we know what kind of orders he does because he told us many times, Donald Trump doesn't lose elections. Donald Trump doesn't accept bad numbers. So it's even if the majority of the country voting one way, Donald Trump will not accept it.

[Jen Psaki]

We only have about a minute left, but I've heard this a lot and this is the thing that scares people about the elections not not being fair. What is that? You've seen this before. What does that look like to you? What should people be have their eyes open to?

[Garry Kasparov]

Oh, look, if you have DOJ FBI eyes under your command, so you can do a lot of things. And obviously we already saw that Donald Trump will not hesitate to bring troops National Guard into blue cities. So again, he has too many levers of power. And it's very important now we mobilize people. And my suggestion, it's not just general protest. I don't think they go after Disney. It's they say they're too powerful and probably insulated against a campaign of boycott the Congress. It's Article 1 of the Constitution and it's Donald Trump power is based on five Republican votes there. So campaign, if you have millions of people who are upset now, start making calls. You know, just turn their lives into hell and make sure that they hear the voice of people.

[Jen Psaki]

Such an important point. You've seen this before. I really appreciate you joining us. It's really insightful and I encourage everybody out there to read your piece, too and follow you on Substack. Gary Kasper, thank you very much. Thank you so much. We have to sneak in a quick break, but Lawrence is standing by with lots of news, lots of information, and every bit of Epstein news that Donald Trump does not want you to hear because he never holds back. We'll be right back. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Bluesky, Instagram and TikTok.

[Laci Mosley]

What's Poppin listeners? I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented cause representation. I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison iii, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess. Wherever you get your podcasts.