← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Comey: 'The FBI is suffering' with Kash Patel as director
00:42:41
Former FBI Director James Comey talks with Jen Psaki about the state of the FBI in the second Trump administration, the effect of Kash Patel's leadership on morale and the resilience of the FBI's culture to survive the deleterious conditions of the Trump administration.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:00]
Jen Psaki
Yesterday I started the show with the news that Trump was reportedly planning to settle his $10 billion lawsuit against the IRS, potentially for enough money to double his net worth. I would note potentially for protections from future IRS audits. And that whole settlement was reportedly expected to happen out of court before Trump's lawyers were expected to appear in front of a judge next week. It had already been scheduled, a judge who very well may have thrown out the case entirely. So, yeah, that's what we started the show with yesterday. If you're watching, you may remember. And just Trump's personal lawyers again. Again, this is just like I have to restate this, coming to an agreement with the Justice Department, run by his former personal lawyers privately, to potentially give Trump billions of your tax dollars. And yesterday that seemed unfathomably corrupt and brazen, far beyond what he had ever attempted in the past. And then came tonight's news, just this evening, because tonight, ABC News reports that Trump is expected to settle his lawsuit with the IRS in exchange for the creation of a $1.7 billion fund to compensate Trump allies who claim they were wrongfully targeted by the Biden administration. As ABC put it tonight, the arrangement would be an unprecedented use of taxpayer dollars with little oversight. And under the terms of the potential settlement, the money would be controlled by a commission made up of five members. But of course, there's always a but here. That commission would really answer to just one man, because here is part of the story as well. President Trump would have the authority to remove members of the commission running the fund without cause and the commission would be under no obligation to disclose its procedures or decision making process for awarding more than a billion dollars. Let's just take a break. Let's be clear eyed about what this means here. I mean, that is $1.7 billion of taxpayer money in a slush fund controlled by Donald Trump with no transparency or oversight. Now, I should note that a spokesperson for the Justice Department declined to comment to ABC News on this story. And representatives for the White House, the IRS and the Treasury Department didn't respond either to requests for comment. And sources told ABC News that while a settlement of some kind is expected in the coming days, the final terms will not be set until they are officially announced. Which I would just note is not a that story is trash. That's not true response either. Now that is also kind of an incredible statement, considering both sides negotiating the settlement are essentially one representing the same person. I mean, what will Trump's personal lawyers and his former personal lawyers land on here? Will he get a few billion dollars? Will he get protection from audits? Will he get a slush fund to reward his allies? Or will he get all of the above? I guess it depends on how much he thinks he can get away with because all of this is so brazen and this is truly further than he has ever gone. I mean, just think about who exactly would be eligible to get a big fat payday from this Trump slush fund. First of all, anyone who alleges they were harmed by the Biden administration's weaponization, as the Trump administration calls it, of the legal system, when the legal system was actually independent. Like say the 1600 people who were charged for their actions at the riot at the Capitol on January 6th. Or all of the people involved in Trump's fake elector scheme and his attempt to overturn the results of the 201020 election. All of his co defendants in his litany of criminal cases. Trump has already pardoned most of these people. People who beat up police officers, people who threatened to kill Mike Pence, people who tried to subvert our country's democracy. Now, he's reportedly trying to siphon taxpayer money from the US treasury, your money, to reward those same people, not despite the crimes they committed, but because of the crimes they committed, because those crimes were committed on Donald Trump's behalf. And we already know what this kind of system could look like. I mean, two months ago, the Justice Department settled a case brought by former Trump National Security Adviser Mike Flynn. The settlement resolved around the case Flynn pleaded guilty to twice the Justice Department from Trump's first term, dropped the case. And then just before the end of his first term, Trump pardoned him, protecting him from any future prosecution. But despite all of that, Trump alleged that he had been wrongly prosecuted. Flynn, I should say, alleged that he had been wrongly prosecuted for political reasons. And rather than fight the case, the Justice Department just gave Flynn $1.25 million. Now, last month, we saw an eerily similar situation play out in a case brought by former Trump adviser Carter Page, who was investigated but never even charged. The justice department gave him $1.25 million, too. I guess $1.25 million is the going rate. I don't know. And if Trump really does get this $1.7 billion slush fund, a lot more of Trump's former allies could be in for a big bat payday, just like Flynn and Page. As Trump is getting more and more unpopular by the day and as he is clearly laying the groundwork to contest elections yet again and to do anything he can to hold onto power, the message he's sending to his followers here is terrifying. If you commit a crime that benefits Trump, like many did on January 6, you get a pardon and maybe even a payday. So if Trump needs his followers to do something illegal for him again, what's going to deter them? Joining me now is former FBI Director James Comey. He is the author of the new book Red Verdict, which is about counterintelligence, something a lot of people should read up on in this particular moment. We're going to talk about that, I promise. But I just have to start by asking you about this news from abc. This news that ABC News reported earlier this evening that Trump is expected to drop his $10 billion lawsuit against the IRS in exchange for the creation of a $1.7 billion, I'm gonna call it a slush fund to compensate allies who claim they were wrongfully targeted by the Biden administration. What's your reaction to that?
- [07:18]
James Comey
When I first saw it, honestly, I thought it was an item from the Onion.
- [07:21]
Jen Psaki
You didn't think it was real?
- [07:22]
James Comey
No. How could that be real? Putting a golden ATM at Mar a Lago? So my reaction was, how about take the 1.7 and give it to the sick and the hungry in this country who got pushed off assistance, but apparently it's going to go to his friends in the dark.
- [07:35]
Jen Psaki
I just want to keep reading from this piece because some of it is so. It's really stunning. To your point, it doesn't feel real. It feels like AI generated or the Onion or whatever you want to call it, but it is real. Here's another part from the piece. The arrangement would be an unprecedented use of taxpayer dollars with little oversight under the terms of the potential settlement. Agree. President Trump would have the authority to remove members of the commission running the fund without cause, and the commission would be under no obligation to disclose its procedures or decision making process for awarding more than a billion dollars. This to me, I mean, we don't like to be hyperbolic. It feels, though, like he is crossing it so blatant and so in your face. It feels like he is crossing another line here. For people out there who are also trying to digest this and find it completely troubling, what do you tell them?
- [08:25]
James Comey
We got to get through two and a half years. It's going to be incredibly painful. He appears not to care anymore. I think he said on the way to his helicopter, I don't care about what Americans are experiencing now and appears he's bearing that out with his actions. So we have to just hope that the rule of law holds that we can change the makeup of Congress come this fall and get a second branch of government involved and ride this out.
- [08:48]
Jen Psaki
I want to ask you about that because it's very optimistic and I want to be an optimist, too. I think, as many people do, watching, but it's hard to because you see people like J.D. vance and Marco Rubio and others who seem to be wanting to follow the MAGA trend, they want to follow in Trump's footsteps here. Are you really that confident that two and a half years, if we get through it, if one of them is sitting in the Oval Office, things will be different?
- [09:14]
James Comey
I guess I tell myself, sitting in the Oval Office, how you've driven the American people, except for the devout MAGA core away from you with their expenses, with Iran, with all the things you've done to horrify them. Who is going to vote for the successor to Donald Trump? Hopefully no one will. And we'll have a different kind of president and a different administration.
- [09:35]
Jen Psaki
I think most people watching probably hope for that. But we also see that Trump is doing everything to hold on to power. You're no stranger to that. You're very familiar with that. I mean, one of the things that I find most outrageous about this new reporting is that people convicted for their roles on January 6 could get payments out of this fund, according to the reporting. And it feels like, and you are the expert on counterterrorism and counterintelligence, not me, but it feels like it could incentivize people to Commit crimes on Trump's behalf, Or am I missing something?
- [10:07]
James Comey
No. And he's been more blatant than that. Right. Promising anybody who came within, I think, 200ft of the Oval Office, they would get a pardon from him before he left. So he's making sure that if you're part of Cosa Nostra, this thing of ours, on my team, I'll take care of you. I'll take care of you. Reducing your exposure. I'll get you free dough. That's a very dangerous message.
- [10:27]
Jen Psaki
I mentioned the payments to Michael Flynn and Carter Page, and obviously in the past, there have been payments and settlement payments with people in the past far more justified. But as you've thought about kind of what laws would need to be put in place to prevent. To protect from this activity in the future, what would need to happen in order to prevent payments like that that are abusive, or the creation of, say, a slush fund?
- [10:51]
James Comey
Well, I would imagine Congress could create a more detailed structure around the federal government's Justice Judgment Fund, which is used to pay settlements like this, requiring more layers of oversight, more restriction. I don't know what they might be, but surely there's more we can do to keep an eye on that money. But at the end of the day, it comes down to the character of the people that we elect and the people they pick to run the agencies.
- [11:14]
Jen Psaki
Trump's second term, and you and I have talked about this. I know you've been out there talking to a lot of people in the last couple of days. I mean, this is all a pattern, as we've seen. He'll pardon you or get your charges dropped if you do something for him. And if you do something he doesn't like, you're a perfect example of this. He's gonna go after you and continue to target you. And all of this is happening in the light of day. It's happening. It's so blatant. It's so in your face. What do you think that the American people see in the justice system that Trump has been running?
- [11:48]
James Comey
Well, I worry that they're becoming numb to what he does, because I feel a little numb to this. Right. I just got indicted for the second time, and my reaction is a little bit of a shrug. We can't become numb to it, because this is not normal. It's not okay, and it's not the way we are. I hope they can see that the Department of Justice has been deeply damaged. I hope they can see their way to the future, that it's going to be restored. Two and a half years from now, it's going to be a different Department of Justice. We just need to make sure we do everything possible that we get there.
- [12:18]
Jen Psaki
When you say that justice can be restored and the Justice Department can be restored, I think one of the things you hear a lot about from people out there in the country, you see in polls, too, is frustration with the courts. The Supreme Court specifically, I should say. There have been a lot of victories in lower courts and federal courts and state courts. And then last week, the Supreme Court just gutted the Voting Rights act. And it feels makes people feel powerless out there. When you look at the court, my bet is, and we haven't talked about this before, that you're probably an institutionalist about the court, just like my old boss Joe Biden was for a long time. Do you look at the makeup of the Court at this point and think maybe it's time for change there? Maybe it's time to expand the Court for term limits or anything along those lines?
- [13:03]
James Comey
I'm open to having conversations about that. But like your former boss, I approach them all with a great deal of traditional conservatism that I just want to be careful that we don't take something that was the genius design of our founders and it really has saved us the rule of law through the judges over the last eight years. I don't want to mess with that in a way that we may regret 20 years from now, 30 years from now. To me, the rule of law is not the rule of me. I don't get to have decisions that I agree with all the time. There's lots I disagree with. For me, the question is, is the regular order working? Are cases being heard in the right way? Are they showing us their work so we can criticize it or agree with it? And honestly, I by and large think it has, even though I don't agree with all the Court's decisions.
- [13:47]
Jen Psaki
Even the Supreme Court?
- [13:48]
James Comey
Even the Supreme Court, yeah. I think the actions of a number of the Supreme Court justices have brought understandable skepticism, even dishonor on the Court. But in the main, we see the work. We understand why they're saying what they're saying, even if we disagree with them. That's the way the system works.
- [14:04]
Jen Psaki
I think it's brought fury. Even my old boss, Joe Biden, has come around to the need to do some reforms of the Court. You're not a politician, but I still wanted to ask you because you talk a lot about the justice system. Let me ask you just about how you spent a lot of time in your career thinking about how our adversaries look at the United States and look at what's happening here. And I know even from traveling when I worked at the State Department, that's one of the things that they ask about. You're telling us to defend democracy or stand up for democracy. Look at what's happening in your own country. How do you think other our adversaries are looking at our justice system right now?
- [14:37]
James Comey
I should say I think they see us as weak, confused in a lot of ways, understaffed in very significant areas, and led by a leader who's amoral and transactional and focused on his own ballroom and whatnot. And so I'm sure adversaries think it's an opportunity because we've taken our eyes off of what matters most. And you see it in the just in the body language in the president's visit to Beijing. Right. President Xi looks in command and control. He's not sucking up to Donald Trump. Trump looks confused and old and looking to curry favor with this powerful man and slather him with compliments, that's a very bad sign. But I think it's the way our adversaries see us now.
- [15:18]
Jen Psaki
I'm sure you've thought about this. One of the things you said back in 2018 is that Trump hadn't criticized Vladimir Putin yet. He still hasn't. Why do you think that is?
- [15:29]
James Comey
I still don't know. Now, in fairness to Trump, I guess he's done things that surely Putin must get angry about. Venezuela, Iran. Some of the other actions he's taken hurt Russia. But in the main, he continues to admire that dictator in ways I cannot explain, unexplainable.
- [15:49]
Jen Psaki
Let me ask you just something about another question, just about the future, because some of this is how can the system be protected moving forward in case there's another actor like Trump? And I think everybody hopes most people hope there is not. But one of the things that has struck me is that our legal system doesn't seem always prepared for the type of abuses that he is capable of. And there are systems, of course, in place in the Department of Justice for recusals, that people who are the attorney general or the deputy attorney general, others have partaken in for many years, including people who were just in those roles. Should someone who has served as the personal attorney to the president be able to represent him in prosecuting cases that involve him? I know you don't want to speak to Van Blanche specifically, but Congress looks to things they should do in the future. Is that something they should take action on?
- [16:35]
James Comey
Yes, it ought to be. One of the things as part of the rebuilding that's examined. Now, granted, I don't think we've ever had a president convicted by a jury of 34 felonies who then made one of his criminal defense lawyers from that trial the head of the Justice Department. So it's new ground for the ethics people. But we need to make sure that even if we didn't anticipate something as absurd as that, the rules address it.
- [17:01]
Jen Psaki
I talked with Tim Weiner the other night, and I said his books are. Some people should be reading right now if they're trying to better understand law enforcement and these systems that are under attack. And your new book, Red Verdict, is at the heart about. At the heart of it is about counterintelligence, which is, of course, a whole world that people didn't know a lot about until they started digging into Kash Patel and what exactly is going on there. And he's, of course, gutted an FBI counterintelligence team specifically tasked with with monitoring threats from Iran. He's gutted a lot of things within the FBI. What do you hope for people who read your book and try to better understand that unit of the agency you once ran, they take away? What do you hope they understand?
- [17:42]
James Comey
Probably two things. One, how important the counterintelligence work is. There really are two things that the FBI does that only the FBI can do in the United States. Counterterrorism and counterintelligence. Which means understanding how our adversaries are trying to steal our secrets, corrupt our people, break up our systems, and defeat that threat. And the Bureau devotes tremendous time to it. So I hope people will see in my work why this matters so much. Then I want them to see the kind of people who do the work, because what I try to have my books be is accurate, exciting, because the work is exciting. But I want to show readers these are the men and women who do that work. They're flawed, like all humans, but they are honest, hardworking people making enormous sacrifices. Because sometimes in all the stuff you read about the Trump team, that can be obscured. And I want people to understand that's the beating heart of the department and
- [18:31]
Jen Psaki
the FBI and people who serve in civil service and people who serve in the foreign service and across government. No question. We're going to take a quick break. You know how this goes. Thank you for being generous with your time. When we come back, I want to ask you something about snorkeling and about bourbon. You've certainly heard these stories, I'm sure. Unfortunately, I have to ask you about those things because of who is currently sitting in your old job. We'll be right back.
- [19:00]
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- [21:09]
Jen Psaki
The more embarrassing headlines surrounding Trump's FBI Director, Kash Patel come out. The more of them you see, the more you get the sense that this guy really likes his recreation time. He loves it. I mean, Patel, of course, has faced widespread criticism for his personal use of a government jet, which he has used to make multiple trips to Las Vegas, where he used to live, as well as Nashville, where his country singer girlfriend resides. He's also used an FBI jet to travel to see his girlfriend sing the national anthem at a wrestling event held at Penn State University. So there's that. And for a multi day excursion to his friend's family's boondoggle ranch. Literally the name in Texas. Yes, again, that's what it's called. Now, those trips were on his personal time, but Patel has reportedly also managed to fit some of his beloved recreational activities into his workday. Back in January, the New York Times spoke to 45 current and former FBI employees for a profile of the department. One senior executive told the paper Patel, quote, doesn't like meetings in office settings. According to this senior official, during a secret conference in Britain of the Critical Intelligence alliance known as the Five Eyes last May, Patel's staff said that he was, quote, unhappy because he wants premier soccer games. He wants to go jet skiing. He'd like a helicopter tour. Now, the FBI did not respond to the Times questions about that trip. But it all seems to fit with a string of escapades Patel has managed to embark on during some of his official trips. I mean, who can forget Patel chugging beers with the U.S. men's Olympic Hockey team during a trip to Italy earlier this year, which the FBI and Patel insisted was for professional purposes. Okay, today we learned that the FBI director went on a VIP snorkel last summer around the solemn Pearl Harbor Memorial and Military Cemetery, the USS Arizona. Patel was visiting Hawaii last summer during a trip that the FBI took pains to note was definitely not a vacation. And the AP noted in its reporting that snorkeling around the memorial is off limits with few exceptions. And that while other FBI directors have visited Pearl harbor on official business, as many people have none going back to at least 1993 and I'm betting before have gone snorkeling at the memorial. Former FBI Director James Comey is back with me. His new book Red Verdict is out now. Okay, Patel has a mountain of potentially disqualifying scandals and each time a new one comes out, part of the defense is to throw around numbers that are supposed to show what a great job he's doing. Well, this week we learned from reporting from MsNow, actually that he has been patting the statistics stats in a variety of ways to make himself look better, including inflating the count of fugitives captured off the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list by apparently adding people they are about to arrest. Now, this seems unprofessional, it seems immoral, but walk us through the danger of that.
- [23:57]
James Comey
The danger is it Strikes at the core of the FBI's integrity, its reputation for being truthful and trustworthy. The FBI is the custodian of the country's crime stats. And if chiefs or citizens come to believe that they're monkeying around with the stats, they've lost it all. And so it's touching something that is indispensable, which is your ability to be trusted.
- [24:21]
Jen Psaki
I want to ask you about another story. Notice published a report this week that the FBI created a so called payback squad of special agents to handle politically sensitive cases. Of course, like yours. A senior FBI official speaking on background denied that a squad was created with that name, but referred to an effort that is officially called the Director's Advisory Team, which they said is a special investigative unit tasked with getting to the bottom of some abuses of power that happened during the previous three presidential administrations. What do you make of that?
- [24:54]
James Comey
I hope it's inaccurate. There were no special squads that reported to me when I was director. I'm confident there were none when Chris Wray or Bob Mueller were directors. Because again, the regular order matters when you're gonna use the enormous power of the FBI to investigate Americans. And so we do it through particular squads with lines of authority that are clear. We keep track of everything. It's all done in a way that is predictable and reliable because you're using power against potentially innocent people.
- [25:23]
Jen Psaki
But tell often in public or in television. The other thing he does is he talks about the morale and the motivation within the department and says it's very high right now. I mean he accuses all sorts of superlatives. I know you've talked about, you've said you still talk to people in the department. How would you characterize it?
- [25:40]
James Comey
I'd be surprised if that were accurate. But we can solve this. He can release the climate survey. Every spring we would produce an anonymous climate survey where every employee was asked, how are things going? How do you feel about the director? I used to read all of those so I would get direct feedback so it's available, it's knowable to understand what the FBI's feelings are. Last time I saw it released was when Donald Trump was lying, saying the FBI was happy to have me fired. Someone got a FOIA release of the climate surveys. Turned out that was a lie. So we could check this same thing.
- [26:13]
Jen Psaki
Easily. Checkable. Easily. Can put that out. There's lots of things people are waiting for from him. There have been only nine FBI directors, as you know. Well, nine is actually the number on the bourbon bottle, which is how Maybe people out there who have not served in the FBI learn that. And specifically, he's only served a year and a half. But what, Mark, do you think Kash Patel has left to date?
- [26:34]
James Comey
Well, the FBI is suffering. It is, despite what he said, demoralized. It is shorthanded. They have diverted people from critical roles to roles that were much more important to the president. Immigration enforcement. If they're screwing around with the crime stats, that's a stain that will take a long time to get past. So it's in a tough spot. The good news is, again, I hate to be the optimist, but I am. The culture in that place is too hard to change in two years or five years. I tried to change it in four years of work with respect to things like diversity and leadership. Very hard. If you know, even if you know how to change culture, it'll still be there in two and a half years and the quality people will hang on and lots of others will flow back in. So it's bad, but it can be very good in short order.
- [27:20]
Jen Psaki
You're a fiction writer now, and you also have a lot of expertise in all of this, which is one of the reasons we're talking to you about both of those things. Does that make it harder? I mean, you're writing fiction about a time that almost feels like fiction.
- [27:33]
James Comey
Yeah. If you put some of this in a book, your editor would be, nope, nope. Let's write something closer to the truth. For me, it's a bit of an escape because I get to write about institutions that I love, show people what they're really like, and tune out a little bit of the world while I write. But then the good news is I get to talk about the book and lots of other things once a year.
- [27:54]
Jen Psaki
Director Comey, thanks for being here with me.
- [27:56]
James Comey
Great to be with you.
- [27:58]
Jen Psaki
Okay. John F. Kennedy's grandson and New York congressional candidate Jack Schlossberg is about to join me here at the table. But first, what can Democrats actually do about the corruption and conflicts of interest on full display everywhere, but certainly in China right now? We all want to know solutions. Senator Chris Van Hollen has an actual idea. He put forward more than that, but he has one he put forward today and he joins me next.
- [28:24]
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- [30:21]
Jen Psaki
go to Roe Co Safety. Today is day two of Trump's state visit to China and I just want to remind you that the President's adult son Eric, who has well documented business ties in China, is is along for the ride. He tagged along because, according to a Trump Organization spokeswoman, he's a supportive son. He attended the state banquet yesterday because he loves his dad and not at all because he has a vested business interest in multiple Chinese crypto companies, including this one, Bitman, whose machines were investigated by DHS for their potential to spy on the US and compromise our power grid. According to one calculation from the New Yorker, the Trump family has had made at least $4 billion during Trump's second term as of January, and over 6 million of that came from unregulated cryptocurrency assets. We all know that as a recipe for corruption. It is corruption. Which is why I find it confusing that when the Republican controlled Senate Banking Committee pushed forward a bill that purports to finally regulate the giant shady Ponzi scheme that is the crypto market. Today, committee Republicans rejected an amendment proposed by Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen that among many things, would bar the Trump family and other senior officials from profiting from the very currency they would ostensibly regulate. Feels very straightforward to me, but joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen, member of the Senate Banking and Foreign Relations Committees. So, Senator Van Hollen, we talk a lot on this show about the web of corruption. You talk a lot about it. And I think one of the questions I always get from people is, well, okay, but what are we going to do about it? And you actually put forward this amendment to the Clarity act because you clearly thought there was a need for something to happen. Explain exactly what it would have done, of course, if it hadn't been rejected by Republicans on the committee today.
- [32:15]
Senator Chris Van Hollen
Well, Jen, yeah, You would think this would be a no brainer whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. It was designed simply to prevent self dealing by the President, whoever the President is, and by members of Congress when it comes to crypto ventures. You wouldn't be able to essentially launch a crypto venture out of the White House or out of your congressional office for the reason you said, which is the President, members of Congress have a lot of power over shaping this industry. We were working on a bill to set the rules of the road for crypto. And so one of the rules should be that the President and members of Congress shouldn't be able to profit through their positions. And to bar self dealing, that was
- [33:04]
Jen Psaki
feels again, so incredibly straightforward. And I just wanted everybody to understand exactly what it is. What is the explanation for why anyone on the committee voted against this?
- [33:17]
Senator Chris Van Hollen
Well, Jen, Republicans clearly want to be able to protect Donald Trump's racket when it comes to corruption. I mean, there are many, many examples. One is the President's meme coin, right? These Trump coins. The President has made hundreds of millions of dollars over these coins. Retail investors have lost hundreds of billions of dollars. Donald Trump at the White House is kind of like the casino. Whether the value of it goes up or down, he wins because he takes a piece of every transaction. But then he uses his office to pump up the value. Remember he had that big competition for the big holders of his meme coin. A lot of foreigners bought it up so they could get the President's ear. So he is essentially using the White House as part of this pay to play scheme and using crypto to do it. So we need to shut this down. Republicans continue to just stand by the President. It's the Dear Leader syndrome. They don't wanna do anything to stop the Trump casino.
- [34:21]
Jen Psaki
Dear Leader syndrome, that's what it is. While I have you cuz you've been calling out a lot of this so frequently, I also wanted to ask you about the ABC reporting I touched on in the show that sources told ABC that Trump is expected to drop his $10 billion lawsuit against the IRS in exchange for the creation of a $1.7 billion fund to compensate his allies who claim they were wrongfully targeted by the Biden administration. As James Comey, he said it just felt like the Onion when he read it. But it sounds it is basically a slush fund aimed at promoting lawlessness. To me, that could incentivize people to do crimes on his behalf. But what do you make of it?
- [34:59]
Senator Chris Van Hollen
Absolutely, Jen. This is a scam to use taxpayer money. Make no mistake. This is to use taxpayer money essentially to reward people who stood with Donald Trump, whether they were rioters on January 6th or other people. And US taxpayers should not have their hard earned money going to pay the President's friends and buddies who he happens to like as allies, but who have been engaged in all sorts of wrongdoing. That is a gross misuse of American taxpayer dollars.
- [35:37]
Jen Psaki
Senator Chris Van Hollen, thanks for putting forward what you did today and continuing the fight. Thanks for being with us tonight.
- [35:43]
Senator Chris Van Hollen
Thanks, Jen.
- [35:45]
Jen Psaki
Okay, my next guest is President John F. Kennedy's grandson. He's a congressional candidate in New York's 12th district. And today the New York Times reported on what they call his chaotic campaign to revive Camelot. Jack Slosberg is standing by here in the studio and he joins me next. Right now in New York, there is a very hotly contested Democratic primary to replace retiring Congressman Jerry Nadler in a district that includes much of Manhattan. And one of the candidates who has definitely caught fire in that race is Jack Schlossberg, the grandson of President John F. Kennedy. He's gained national attention with his viral social media presence, endorsements from big names like Nancy Pelosi, and his calls for an investigation into his first cousin once removed, RFK Jr. While polling in these races can be a little tricky, several polls commissioned by Schlossberg's primary opponents have shown him leading the crowded field. But just Today, this is part of a campaign, everyone. The New York Times released a new story detailing alleged problems inside the Schlossberg campaign. According to the Times, Mr. Schlossberg would regularly blow off weekly strategy meetings called for his benefit and made a habit of disappearing for long stretches with little notice or explanation. His campaign has also been plagued by high turnover, with the Times reporting that in the six months since he entered the race, he's had at least two campaign managers, two field directors, a handful of advisors, and a rotating cast of consultants. And the paper also dug into the 33 year old candidate's professional history, finding that some of his longest work engagements consisted of a few months as a political correspondent for Vogue and a brief stint at the State Department that lasted less than four months. According to a department spokesperson Today, Schlossberg's campaign fired back at the New York Times via social media, saying, quote, anonymous sources describe his ability to be everywhere as erratic chaos. He calls it running for Congress. And joining me now is Jack Slasberg, Democratic candidate in New York's 12th congressional district. First of all, how does it feel to be running for Congress and be under the scrutiny that happens when you are?
- [37:53]
Jack Schlossberg
The best part about being a front runner is everyone starts attacking you. So we're really happy to be leading in the polls, coming out with more policies and raising more money and meeting more people than any of our opponents. And when they start attacking you, then you know you're doing something right.
- [38:06]
Jen Psaki
Okay, we're going to talk about your policy proposals. They are a central part of every campaign, very important. But campaigns are also a tryout for the job. As people are getting to know you, they look at every aspect of you and how you conduct yourself on the campaign. We've talked enough for me to know that you are an unconventional candidate. You approach things in an unconventional way. Anyone who follows you on social media certainly knows that. But for people out there in your district who are getting to know you, they're looking for leadership. They're looking for reliability as well. And I outlined some of the things in this story that would paint a picture of you as someone who disappears for hours. Skip strategy meetings. First of all, is it true or was it true for just a portion of the campaign? And how can you reassure people that you're gonna show up if you're elected?
- [38:51]
Jack Schlossberg
Our campaign has done more public events. We're everywhere all at once. I've met so many people in New York that I'm starting to run into people for the second time just on the street. And in terms of the reports in that New York Times article that you're referencing, most of them, if they had fact checked them, they could have asked me. Not true. Weekly meetings for my benefit, strategy meetings. I can tell you right now that I'm the campaign's lead strategist.
- [39:15]
Jen Psaki
So you didn't skip meetings early on in the campaign or in the first couple of weeks.
- [39:20]
Jack Schlossberg
Who would I be meeting with? Who is this person? I have no idea what they're talking about. And they said that I took a nap in November. And if that's their idea of a scandal, then I think that that is evidence to everyone in New York that I'm running a basically flawless campaign.
- [39:34]
Jen Psaki
Well, it came from people within your campaign. And now a number of these people may not be on your campaign anymore. And turnover on campaigns, although you've had a lot of it, is not uncommon. You haven't run for office before, but you're saying none of those reports are true in this story.
- [39:47]
Jack Schlossberg
Yeah, so I've had a core group of people. I'm a decisive person. Also, I'm running a campaign that is admittedly different than any other campaign in anywhere else in the country. We're a startup. We're doing things completely differently. And if you think that the Democratic Party should be running campaigns like it has in the past and that anyone is going to be able to recognize what a winning campaign is, I don't know what to tell you.
- [40:10]
Jen Psaki
People clearly don't want campaigns to be run like they were run in the past. And they're clearly looking for unconventional candidates. I mean, look at primaries from across the country. They also want people who they know are going to show up to committee meetings. Right. And to show up and to show up for votes and things like that. Let me ask you about another part of the story, because the best thing to do is to respond to these accusations or respond to critics. It also dug into your resume. It seems like should you win, a two term year in Congress would be kind of the longest. This is part of the critique. The longest time you would have one consistent job. You have an impeccable academic background. You have volunteered in politics your whole life. You've worked in different jobs in government and media. But what's your argument to people? What is it about your experience before you started running for Congress that you think people should point to that makes you stick out from the other candidates?
- [41:03]
Jack Schlossberg
I think people are drawn and excited about our campaign because of my experience, because they have experienced a Democratic Party that has been behind the Eight ball every step of the way for the last decade. And I've been one of the only people in the party who has experience breaking through, bringing new people into our party, being more persuasive, galvanizing the very voters, young and old, that the party needs to win over if we're ever gonna get back control of Congress. So I think people, I think we're winning on experience, on policy, and on excitement, enthusiasm.
- [41:34]
Jen Psaki
But when I ask that, I mean, because some people will say, I was a nurse, it was unconventional, but I've been a nurse for 10 years or 20 years or I was a teacher. What do you point to that.
- [41:44]
Jack Schlossberg
Okay, well, I was. I went to Yale.
- [41:47]
Jen Psaki
Impeccable academic credentials, for sure.
- [41:50]
Jack Schlossberg
I worked abroad in Japan. I worked at the State Department. The four months is not how long I worked at the State Department. It was just under a year. I left because Barack Obama left power. Donald Trump won. I was a political appointee, and that's how that works. I then went to law school, business school, and was all set to be a lawyer when I decided to instead go work for the Biden campaign. And look, a lot of these reports are about me missing meetings and taking naps are from December, November of 2025. I just lost my sister and didn't feel the need to explain to somebody who was working on my campaign that I just met why I would be missing a meeting when I was hanging out with my niece and nephew.
- [42:32]
Jen Psaki
Well, that is an important part of it. I mean, the loss you endured is unbearable. And grief is not a straight line, nor is it over in a week. And that was taking place during the early period of your time. How much did that impact your early weeks of the campaign? How much does it impact you now?
- [42:49]
Jack Schlossberg
Tatiana was my best friend. And I'll never be over. I'll never. When you lose someone that close to you, nothing will ever be the same. But it's given me all the confidence I need to run this race in the way that I want, because no moment is guaranteed. No one knows what's coming next. And I want to make full use of my life here on Earth. And I can't think of anything I'd rather do than run for office at a time when our country and New York City needs new leadership.
- [43:19]
Jen Psaki
Let me ask you about your policies, because you have proposed a number of policies, and what's important here is what you would do in Congress. You just announced a new policy to expand the child tax credit by $300 for anyone with children under the age of six and pay for it with the money from Trump's billion dollar ballroom renovation. I love this in part because this is kind of a creative idea that ties something Trump is doing to really care about. But there are details here I have to ask you about because there are more than 30 million households with children under 6. So a billion dollars would amount to about $30 per household for one year, which is part of it. Where does the rest of money come from?
- [43:56]
Jack Schlossberg
Could you clarify?
- [43:58]
Jen Psaki
Well, what you're talking about is that you want to cover for people under six in this country. Right. The proposals for the country pay $300 more a month for the child tax credit. Right. But this only would cover a billion dollars, would only cover $30. So there's $270 per family.
- [44:13]
James Comey
Right.
- [44:14]
Jack Schlossberg
The billion dollars isn't to cover the full expense. There are additional revenue streams that we would tap into by reversing some of the cuts that the president and his administration have made to federal programs. And we're going to be continuing what was done during the COVID relief program to make the child, it's called Jack's Mom's Monthly Bonus Plan. We're going to be paying the child tax care credit monthly instead of annually because that's how working families budget.
- [44:39]
Jen Psaki
It definitely is. And people forget how he cut that. Let me ask you about another person who you've been particularly critical of and that is your first cousin once removed. Is that the right way of describing him? RFK Jr you've called for him to be criminally prosecuted. You even delivered a fake subpoena to him along with a box of Tylenol.
- [44:56]
Jack Schlossberg
I'm going to say it was a draft subpoena, not fake.
- [44:58]
Jen Psaki
I'm sorry, a draft subpoena. Fair enough. You've said that both. Some of what he's doing is funny, but it's also dangerous, which I think is fair. One of the things I think a lot of people are hungry for is accountability. If you were to be elected, if you're a part of a Democratic majority, what would you like to be investigated about him?
- [45:16]
Jack Schlossberg
First I want to know why Tylenol, why not Advil? I want to know who is paying for the words that are coming out of his mouth. We know that his anti vax crusade, while he's been doing it, he has been taking money from anti vax interest groups. I want people to know the answers about who's paying for the words coming out of every cabinet members mouth in this administration. And look, this is a difference between me and the opponents that I'm running against, one of the opponents I'm running against, Assemblyman Michael Asher. He doesn't think that we should impeach President Trump. He doesn't think that we should hold President Trump and his Cabinet accountable, that that's a waste of time, not going to happen. I think that the Democratic Party has to hold the president accountable for his many crimes that we've seen him commit in broad daylight.
- [45:56]
Jen Psaki
Jack Schlossberg, it's not easy to run for Congress. It is not easy to answer tough questions about yourself. And you've been doing it all well, grieving the loss of your sister, too. Thank you for being here and speaking.
- [46:06]
Jack Schlossberg
Thank you. Thank you.
- [46:08]
Jen Psaki
Okay, we have to take a very quick break, but the last word has Senator Cory Booker standing by. And we'll be right back. You may remember that last June, the Trump Organization announced the imminent release of a Trump branded mobile phone, the T1 smartphone, a gold cell phone. And it could be yours for $499 if you pre ordered it and paid a $100 deposit. Now, at the time, Trump Mobile, which licenses the Trump name, promised the phone would be designed and built in the United States and it would be delivered by last August. But so far, this has shown itself to be less a solid plan and more like, you know, concepts of a plan. What started out as it designed and built in the United States turned into a design with American values in mind and a final assembly in Florida. Not the same. The makers of the phone confirmed to the Verge earlier this year that only around 10 pieces would be assembled in that final stage. Now, in the meantime, Trump Mobile pushed the original August launch date back to October. But October came and went and no phones. Trump Mobile CU now tells USA Today that the company will start sending phones to customers this week. Of course, with this track record, nothing is a guarantee. In fact, check the terms and conditions because they have been updated to say, quote, trump Mobile does not guarantee that the device will be commercially released. Pay us for something you might never get. Now that is the Trump way. That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on Ms. Now. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.
- [47:40]
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Jack Schlossberg
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