'Complete catastrophe': Trump faces widespread consequences for Iran blunder

Summary

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Podcast Summary: “'Complete catastrophe': Trump faces widespread consequences for Iran blunder”

Podcast: The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Host: Jen Psaki (MS NOW)
Air Date: April 9, 2026
Episode Theme:
This episode examines President Donald Trump’s dramatic escalation in the Iran crisis—including his explicit threat to annihilate the country, the resulting backlash nationally and globally, and the crumbling coalition around him. Through expert interviews (Senator Mark Kelly, Governor Wes Moore, and journalist David Remnick), the episode unpacks the implications for U.S. foreign policy, military ethics, democracy, and America’s place in the world.

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1. Opening Overview: Trump’s Genocidal Threat and the “Two Weeks” Off-Ramp [00:58]

• Jen Psaki and panel begin with the day’s gripping events—Trump threatened to wipe out Iran’s civilization if the Strait of Hormuz wasn’t reopened by a self-imposed deadline.
• Media outlets treated the crisis like reality TV, with countdown clocks to his ultimatum.
• Just 90 minutes before the deadline, Trump backed down, announcing a two-week “ceasefire” instead.
• “Two weeks” is mocked as Trump’s habitual stalling tactic on policy promises.
  • Janine Gibson: “It's always two weeks. Always two weeks.” [03:16]

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2. What the “Ceasefire” Actually Means—and the Reality on the Ground [03:16–07:45]

• Pakistan’s Prime Minister brokered the latest pause.
• Terms are murky: Trump claims Iran must immediately open the Strait; Iran claims the U.S. agreed to Iranian control and far-reaching concessions.
• The reality: There’s confusion, no apparent return to pre-war status quo, and Iranian military “coordination” is now required for safe passage.
• Iran’s regime, recently facing protests, now rallies nationalistic support in response to U.S. threats.

Janine Gibson: “If it were actually a ceasefire with a verifiable step forward to ending this disastrous war of choice that Trump himself started, well, that would be a reasonable relief to everyone. But right now, after all that bluster … where does this leave us?” [04:37]

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3. The Domestic Fallout: Broken Alliances & Fractured Support at Home [04:37–07:45]

• Gas prices hit highs ($4.14/gallon), global alliances fray; American moral authority on war crimes is questioned as Trump disregards the Geneva Conventions.
• Trump’s MAGA coalition starts to splinter—far-right figures (Tucker Carlson, Alex Jones, Candace Owens, Marjorie Taylor Greene) call for invoking the 25th Amendment.
• Military and administration advised by former insiders and right-wing voices to refuse carrying out unlawful orders.

Tucker Carlson [quoted]: “If given the order, I’m not carrying it out. Figure out the codes on the football yourself.” [07:21]
Janine Gibson: “Tucker Carlson is imploring members of the military not to carry out any illegal orders issued by Donald Trump. That’s essentially the same advice that several Democratic lawmakers gave ... last year.” [07:45]

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4. Key Interview: Senator Mark Kelly on the Catastrophic Fallout [08:54–18:41]

Mark Kelly’s Reaction to the “Ceasefire” [08:54]

• Kelly sees no real movement—Trump keeps moving goalposts, lacks strategy or seriousness.
• “He doesn’t think before he speaks ... basically saying he was going to commit unlawful acts.” [08:54]

The New Strait of Hormuz Status Quo [10:39]

• Senator Kelly explains that “coordination” with Iranian armed forces is a major shift from decades of guaranteed free passage for global shipping and the U.S. Navy.
• Warns this could lead to Iran imposing “the most expensive toll booth” on the planet—and U.S. ships requiring escorts.

Morality, Intent, and Damage Assessment [12:16–13:46]

• Kelly critiques Trump’s genocidal threats as not mere “negotiation tactics” but evidence of recklessness and a loss of U.S. moral/ethical standing.
• The damage: High gas/prices, alienated allies, lost global credibility, broken planning on “the day after” military action.

Senator Mark Kelly: “Our reputation is further damaged and other countries look at this and they say, okay, has the United States of America lost its moral and ethical compass?” [12:37]

Military and Constitutional Concerns [15:56–18:41]

• Kelly recounts his own call for service members to refuse illegal orders—echoed now even by MAGA figures.
• He’s been targeted for standing by constitutional principles (“President said I should be hanged, executed, prosecuted … They tried to send us to jail. That didn’t work.”) [15:56]
• Dismisses the chance that Trump’s cabinet will use the 25th Amendment due to the loyalty-over-competence selection.
• “What we have to do here is win the next election … until then … try to keep this president in a box.” [17:38]

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5. Military Resistance to Illegal Orders [21:09–23:48]

• Retired General Randy Manor describes CENTCOM commanders already rejecting Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth’s unlawful targeting of Iranian civilian infrastructure.
• Kelly emphasizes military professionalism and “following the law when orders are in conflict.”
• The psychological strain on U.S. troops: “They're struggling with … what have we become as a military.” [22:59]

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6. War Contrasted with Lunar Achievement: Artemis II [23:48–25:40]

• Discussion pivots to the Artemis II lunar mission as a “point of light” and source of national pride amid national turmoil.
• Kelly, a former astronaut, notes the contrast between collective achievement and the crisis of leadership:

Senator Mark Kelly: “…makes me think about that a little bit, you know, whether these folks are … saving 2026 a little bit here with some positive news and something we can really rally around…a stark contrast to what we’re dealing with in a lot of different areas of the world…” [24:27]

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7. Interview: Governor Wes Moore—Crisis at Home and GOP Complicity [29:14–36:21]

• Moore agrees Trump is “unhinged,” selfish, and unfit—yet concludes, “I am not holding my breath to think the Republicans are going to have the courage to do that [invoke 25th Amendment].” [29:14]
• Focuses on material impacts at the state level: surging gas, energy, and grocery prices, tariffs, and communities under strain.
• Moore, a veteran, offers guidance to soldiers: They “are waiting for orders but are still waiting for clarity of mission … waiting for the commander in chief to tell them why.” [31:02]
• Recalls the military ethos: force is a last resort, there must be a clear mission/endgame, international coalitions matter—none of which exist now.
• Discusses personal and systemic attacks from local media controlled by Trump-friendly figures, warning of a “canary in the coal mine” for U.S. local journalism.

Governor Wes Moore: “The problem with this operation is none of those three things [military, diplomatic, coalition preconditions] have been accomplished … we continue to see a goalpost that is moving because we have a president who is trying to figure out how to get out of this and save face. And that's not fair to the soldiers…” [32:25]

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8. Interview: David Remnick, The New Yorker – “A Strategic Disaster” [36:21–44:32]

What’s Actually Happening with the Ceasefire? [39:31]

• Remnick assesses: The lack of clarity—mixed messages from the U.S. and Iran—signals “a strategic disaster.”
• Blames the crisis on Trump’s destruction of the Iran nuclear deal and obsession with undoing Obama’s legacy:

David Remnick: “The only reason that Donald Trump came along in 2018 and abrogated that treaty … was because it was crafted by Barack Obama and not him.” [39:31]

• U.S. threats may now spur Iran to seek nuclear weapons as its only defense (like North Korea).
• Global implications: NATO relationships endangered, U.S. moral standing eroded, regional security worsened.

The Netanyahu Factor—and Trump’s Susceptibility [42:06]

• Remnick contextualizes Israeli PM Netanyahu’s pivotal role in persuading Trump, disproving regime change optimism.
• Trump ignored internal warnings—“believes who he wants to believe.”

“The First Casualty Is the Truth” [43:39]

• Remnick: “The first thing that goes out the window when you commit war is the truth.”
• Cites catastrophic miscommunication between U.S. and Iran, missed diplomatic opportunities ("anything is better than what just transpired”).

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9. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Senator Mark Kelly: “We have a president that has no strategic plan … He is not a serious person. He doesn’t listen to people around him.”
• Tucker Carlson (as quoted): “If given the order, I’m not carrying it out. Figure out the codes on the football yourself.”
• Governor Wes Moore: “We have soldiers who are waiting for orders but are still waiting for clarity of mission.”
• David Remnick: “Who talks like this? … It used to be that a president’s dignity was called into question when he wore a tan suit to a press conference.”
• Janine Gibson: “There is this growing group of, again, kind of unlikely bedfellows … calling for the 25th Amendment to be invoked.”

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10. Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:58–07:45]: Crisis overview, international/media reaction, the “two-week” trope.
• [08:54–18:41]: Senator Mark Kelly interview—policy/ethical fallout, Strait of Hormuz, damage assessment.
• [21:09–23:48]: Gen. Randy Manor/Mark Kelly—military's resistance to illegal orders.
• [23:48–25:40]: Artemis II lunar mission as national contrast.
• [29:14–36:21]: Governor Wes Moore interview—presidential fitness, military clarity, local press threats.
• [39:31–44:32]: David Remnick—broader context, Netanyahu’s influence, truth in war.

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11. Takeaways

• Trump’s threat to destroy Iran met global revulsion and spurred a coalition—including right-wing figures—calling for his removal.
• The administration is marked by chaos, shifting war rationales, broken alliances, and historical damage to U.S. credibility.
• Military leaders are quietly resisting illegal orders; the U.S. military’s cohesion and ethical identity are at stake.
• The crisis is juxtaposed with the uplifting success of Artemis II’s lunar mission—a fleeting source of national unity.
• The information landscape is degraded (“the first casualty is the truth”); local news and democracy face new perils from partisan control.
• The recurring question: How does America recover from this diplomatic, moral, and strategic crisis?

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Janine Gibson]

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[Senator Mark Kelly]

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[Governor Wes Moore]

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[Janine Gibson]

We spent. I spent. I'm sure you spent the entire day wondering if the President of the United States was about to order a genocidal attack on a country of 93 million people. I mean, just sit with that for a moment. I know that he says all sorts of crazy things, but that is what he threatened this morning. This morning the President issued a threat to the entire population of Iran saying, quote, a whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again if Iran did not meet his latest deadline to reopen the Strait of Hormuz by 8pm tonight. Now, most of the world treated a threat to wipe out an entire civilization with the horror and the disgust that something like that deserves. But we also saw efforts to play into the President's desperate theatrics, treating this whole thing like it was some sort of a primetime TV reality show. Fox Business Channel and at least one Israeli news outlet even had countdown clocks. You can see them on your screen right there, ticking away the seconds until the President's deadline for the indiscriminate mass murder he had threatened. Will or he won't. Will he or won't he? You know, that was what they were asking all day. So those clocks were ticking away. Tune today to find out. We'll see what happens. Well, tonight, just an hour and a half before his self imposed deadline, Trump back down and managed to justify a form of an off ramp for himself. In a post on his social media account, Trump said he had agreed to, quote, suspend the bombing and attack of Iran for a period of, you guessed it, two weeks. And in case you weren't familiar, two weeks has long been the President's absolute favorite timeline for putting off promises that he doesn't want to deliver on.

[David Remnick]

We're going to be sending Letters out

[Senator Mark Kelly]

in about a week and a half.

[David Remnick]

Two weeks. I can't tell you that, but I'll let you know in about two weeks. Within two weeks. I could answer that question better in two weeks. I'll do this at some point over the next two weeks. I'll announce it over the next two weeks. I'll tell you about that in a month from now or two weeks from now.

[Governor Wes Moore]

You trust President Putin.

[Janine Gibson]

You know, in about two weeks.

[David Remnick]

You can ask that question in two weeks and we'll see. It'll be out in about less than two weeks. We're going to start selling, hopefully in about two weeks.

[Janine Gibson]

It's always two weeks. Always two weeks. Now, the two week ceasefire that Trump announced tonight was brokered by the Prime Minister of Pakistan, who says it applies to the entire region and is effective immediately. Trump says the deal is contingent on Iran agreeing to the, quote, complete, immediate and safe opening of the Strait of Hormuz, though it does not seem that Iran is giving up control of the strait itself, a strait it did not control before Trump started this war. In fact, Iran's foreign minister made a point of saying that safe passage through the Strait of Hormuz will be possible via coordination with Iran's armed forces, which definitely does not sound like going back to the way things were just over a month ago. Now, in a separate statement quoted in Iranian media from Iran's Supreme National Security Council, they're also claiming that they forced, quote, America to accept its 10 point plan, in which, again, according to this statement from Iran's Supreme National Security Council appearing in VARS media, the United States committed in principle to, quote, continued Iranian control over the Strait of Hormuz, acceptance of enrichment, lifting of all primary and secondary sanctions and payment of compensation. It's very hard to believe that the Trump administration would agree to any of that, even the Trump administration. But in any case, Trump seems to have put off for this moment, right while we are sitting here, the catastrophic strikes he's been promising. And it feels kind of like we've been here before, doesn't it? It's because we have. I mean, last month, Trump gave around 48 hours to open the Strait of Hormuz, threatening to obliterate the country's power plants if they didn't comply by March 23. But when that day arrived, Trump extended his deadline by five days, saying the U.S. would hold off until March 28. Then he extended that deadline by 10 days, setting it for April 6 at 8pm Eastern. Then this past Sunday, he inexplicably shifted it back by another 24 hours to April 7, which was this evening. And now, of course, he's postponed that deadline by two weeks, which would push it back to April 21st. And look, if this tentative ceasefire, where I would note even the Iranians don't seem to be on the same page, and they certainly don't seem to be on the same page as the Trump administration in terms of the demands and what everybody's saying has or has not been agreed to. If it were actually a ceasefire with a verifiable step forward to ending this disastrous war of choice that Trump himself started, well, that would be a reasonably a relief to everyone. But right now, after all that bluster, after all that maximalist language and reprehensible threats of genocide, after all that, where does this leave us? I mean, gas prices are at their highest levels in years, with the national average now sitting at $4.14 a gallon. According to AAA, Trump has destroyed America's already fractured relationship with our closest allies, threatening the future of the NATO alliance. America's lost any moral authority on the question of war crimes and whether we can expect other countries to adhere to the Geneva Conventions. As Trump ignores them, he's risked the prestige of America's military treating them like a bunch of toy soldiers. And today, the regime that was facing mass protests just a short few months ago mobilized hundreds of Iranians to take to the streets and form a human chain around the power plants and bridges that the US had threatened to target. When the President was asked by NBC News about that, he said without a hint of irony that the demonstrations were, quote, totally illegal, adding, they're not allowed to do that. So if you're keeping track, the President insists it's fair game to wipe out an entire country in violation of international law. But if Iranians gather on their bridges and around their power plants, he says that's illegal. Meanwhile, Trump's insane threats have become something of a last straw for many in the President's fraying MAGA coalition. Right wing influencers like Alex Jones, Candace Owens, Marjorie Taylor Greene are now calling on Trump's cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment and remove Trump from office. And just listen to this familiar sounding edict from MAGA influencer Tucker Carlson.

[Governor Wes Moore]

If you work in the White House or in the US Military, now it's time to say no, absolutely not, and say it directly to the President. No. Those people who are in direct contact with the President need to say no, I'll resign. I'll do whatever I can do legally to stop this, because this is insane. And if given the order, I'm not carrying it out. Figure out the codes on the football yourself.

[Janine Gibson]

Sound familiar? Tucker Carlson is imploring members of the military not to carry out any illegal orders issued by Donald Trump. That's essentially the same advice that several Democratic lawmakers gave to members of the armed services last year. It's the advice that prompted Trump to accuse those Democrats of treason, target them for retribution. Trump's defense secretary even tried to demote Senator and retired Navy Captain Mark Kelly was over his role in that message to service members. Now, after the president just walked the nation to the brink of carrying out a major war crime on his behalf, I actually can't think of anyone better to talk to. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. He's of course, a member of the Senate Intelligence and Armed Services Committees. During his service as a Navy pilot, he flew 39 combat missions in Operation Desert Storm. Senator, I want to, I'm so grateful you're here with me. I know you've had a busy couple of weeks. I want to start by just getting your reaction to the truth Social post late today from President Trump about a two week ceasefire. How did you read that? Especially given some of what we've heard from the Iranians of what they say has been agreed to?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I mean, we're still in the same spot I think we were in a couple weeks ago or even weeks before that. We have a president that has no strategic plan, no goal he was trying to achieve or at least stay, you know, moving, moving the goalpost over and over again. He's not a serious president. He doesn't think before he speaks. What he said this morning was incredibly disturbing. That he was going to end a civilization, by the way, has been around for thousands of years. And in doing that, he was basically saying that he was going to commit unlawful acts, which I've been concerned about since November. So I am certainly somewhat relieved for now that there are not going to be massive strikes on civilian infrastructure in violation of the law. But we will have to see what happens next. He is not, in my view, not a serious person. He doesn't listen to people around him. He doesn't get great advice when you consider who he put around him. And we're at a really challenging point here. The Strait of Hormuz is still closed. And I don't see how any of this has helped the American people.

[Janine Gibson]

I want to get to that and I just want to ask you one question about the Strait of Hormuz because one of the things Iran's foreign minister basically said, and I just read this, that safe passage through the Strait of Hormuz will be possible via coordination with Iran's armed forces. That is a massive caveat. How do you hear that? How should people understand that?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, on a massive change from what it had been for decades, which, you know, militaries, including ours and commercial ships had free passage through the strait. I've gone through there a number of times in 1989 and again in 1991, the second time for the first time for the first Gulf War, Desert Storm, but before that we had issues with the Iranians. But this is an entire change in what was a decades long status quo. And this could become for them one of the most expensive toll booths for the Iranians and lucrative for them. That's not the way this should end. This president has to get back to where we were before. I don't want to see our ships being charged $2 million every time they go through there. We're having to escort them to keep them safe. I mean, that is not a good outcome for this.

[Janine Gibson]

Coordination through Iran's armed forces, as they said, is not going back to the status quo of just over a month ago. I mean, and obviously what had been for years. You mentioned, I talked about, I started the show, of course, talking about Trump's frightening, alarming, outrageous threat that he posed this morning. You just mentioned it. I wonder, you gave us a sense of what was going through your head when you saw that one of the arguments that Trump's people have made is that this was a negotiating tactic. How do you read that? I think that's B.S. but what do you think?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I don't think he thinks far enough ahead to figure out what is a negotiating tactic or is. And I think whatever just happens to fly out of his mouth at any moment is what we are all stuck with. And what this means is our reputation is further damaged and other countries look at this and they say, okay, has the United States of America lost its moral and ethical compass? Is this the same country who has led the free world for decades, or are we in a new, entirely different paradigm? So that's what I'm worried about. How do you fix this over the next several years? Or it's actually gonna have to be fixed after his administration,

[Janine Gibson]

everyone obviously should want this war that Trump started to end. Of course, there's already, and you referenced this, a great deal of damage done. I mean, gas prices are high, we've alienated our allies, we've given up any and all moral authority around war crimes. I mean, before this even, but this kind of solidified it. And for what? I mean, to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, which was open before this war started and currently not going back to the status quo. What do you want people to understand? I mean, cuz as many years as you spent in the military and as you've spent in the Senate, there's so much planning, typically for the day after and what the impact is. What do you want people to understand about the damage that's already been done, even if this ends and that's what we all should be rooting for?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, it's significant. It's also tied together with what he had said previously about invading Greece mainland, making Canada the 51st state. Now recently, more recently, Secretary Rubio talking about how NATO is, is not worth us being a partner anymore. We are the strongest country in the world, not only because of our economy and because of our military. I would say as important as those two things is the fact that we have friends or we had friends. We had countries that would come to our assistance like they did after 9, 11 when we were violently attacked by terrorists. All those countries, including Denmark, by the way, sent troops to fight by our side in Afghanistan. Are they going to do that in the future here when we talk so aggressively about our allies? I think there's significant damage that has been done and it continues today because of this war in Iran that started with no explanation, not only to our allies, but to the American people. The President didn't explain sufficiently why he was doing this. And then when he started to explain, he would change the explanation. And his, you know, you know, his cabinet wasn't even, weren't even on the same page. We get, we get told that we're in this because of a imminent threat in the future. I mean, how do those, how does, how do you square that circle? Or it's regime change, it's nuclear weapons, it's bulletproof ballistic missiles. And now we're in a much worse situation than we were in February.

[Janine Gibson]

I mentioned this earlier. I mean, even Tucker Carlson is now advising U.S. officials to say no to Trump if they're asked to carry out mass attacks on Iranian civilians. I'm sure I just played it, but I'm sure you may have seen that. What do you make of the fact that there's now this growing coalition of people who agree on very little, all saying basically what you said last fall, to say no to illegal orders?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yeah. I mean, not only Did I say it last fall? But in 2016, Pete Hegseth, the guy who's trying to demote me and take away some of my pension, said it in 2016 specifically about this president. I mean, he knew in 2016 who Donald Trump was. And there was a risk that Donald Trump could ask members of the military to do unconscionable things. So we realized that in November. I said something. The president didn't like it. He said I should be hanged, executed, prosecuted. They tried that. They tried to send us to jail. You know, that didn't work. You know, I'm fighting here on this issue on behalf of the constitutional rights of 2 million retired service members, you know, like myself, but really all of us to be able to say things and speak out about this government and not face retribution. And Jen, it's not only. It's not only. I mean, it's not only the freedom of speech, it's the freedom of the press as well. He's going after Americans constitutional rights that we've had for 250 years. I'm not going to stand for it. And now it seems that Tucker Carlson, Marjorie Taylor Greene and others are realizing how unhinged this president is. And now they're even speaking out.

[Janine Gibson]

There is this growing group of, again, kind of unlikely bedfellows, as they say, calling for the 25th Amendment to be invoked. It is very unlikely. I should just tell people not to pour water, but because it requires the majority of cabinet or 2/3 of Congress. But what do you make of that? Do you think we're at that point?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I think it. With a normal administration, yeah, sure. We could be at that point. The problem here is the president's. When he was looking through people's resumes for cabinet positions, the number one quality, my sense is what he was looking for were people that were going to be loyal to him no matter what. He put in a bunch of sycophants and a bunch of yes people that, you know, I think I find it hard to understand how they get out of bed every day without a spine. And I see this in the United States Senate as well, people that will not speak truth to power. So the chance of them actually doing this is, you know, it's basically zero, little to none. So I'm not holding my breath. What we have to do here is, you know, win the next election. Until then, we've got some levers of power we can use, you know, to try to keep this president in a box. One is the defense bill. But after that, November is coming up here pretty quickly.

[Janine Gibson]

It certainly is. We need to take a very quick break, but stay right where you are. Thank you for being here with me through another block. I wanted to ask you about something. I want to play this for you. We'll talk about it after the break. But today the former deputy commanding general in Kuwait told my colleague Nicole Wallace what he's heard. It was through secondhand sources about US Military leaders attempts to resist attacking the civilian targets in Iran that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth wants them to. I just want to play that for you. We'll talk about it after the break.

[David Remnick]

I have already indications that many targets that were recommended by the Secretary of Defense were rejected by centcom that they were civilian targets. I believe that people are already saying no to the. To the hierarchy. The CENTCOM commander is walking a very thin line where he is trying to do the best he can to implement military objectives as he understands them without getting fired.

[Janine Gibson]

I can't wait to get your thoughts on that. We're taking a quick break. We'll be right back. At vrbo, we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support. So we plan for the plot twists. Every booking is automatically backed by our VRBO Care guarantee, giving you confidence from the very start. Whenever you need help, it's ready before your stay, through the moments in between and after your trip. Because a great trip starts with peace of mind and maybe a good playlist. But we've got the peace of mind part covered. Blueair is the official air care partner

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[Janine Gibson]

We're back with Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. Okay, so before the break, I played a clip of retired General Randy Manor telling my colleague Nicole Wallace earlier today that Pete Hegseth is organized already recommended strikes that CENTCOM commanders have refused for targeting Civilian infrastructure. What'd you make of that?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Well, I'm not surprised. I mean, Pete Hegseth has been running around the Pentagon talking about maximum lethality, no mercy, no quarter, which I think most people realize what that is and that there would be a crime to conduct our military in that regard and kill people that are surrendering. So it's no surprise, surprise that we're first hearing about this. Hey, this stuff isn't new. I mean, you know what, what we said back in November is the law. Anybody who graduated from the military academy at West Point would often walk by a plaque and it says, when the law and orders are in conflict, you follow the law. So I'm not surprised. We have incredibly professional people in the military, and my hope would be that if the Secretary of Defense, not Secretary of War, the Secretary of Defense, were to order them to do something that was unlawful, that they would reject it.

[Janine Gibson]

We're in, we're in quite a moment right now where that is required if it's happening. I mean, members of the military no doubt saw the President's threat today. Most of them, if not all of them, did. Some of them likely heard, if not all of them. Pete Hegseth, call for no quarter, no mercy for our enemies. A couple of weeks ago that you just talked about, what are the impacts of statements like those from the President and the Secretary of Defense on down the chain of command to people deployed in the region right now?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Yeah, it makes it hard for them to do their jobs. I was talking to a mid grade officer today specifically about this and how they're struggling. Many of them, you know, are struggling with, you know, what have we become as a military. And they're thinking about their service and, you know, they're patriotic people, they're incredibly professional. But when you have this kind of leadership, especially at the top, it is a challenge for them. You know, they have to think about, you know, what, like, what are we doing here? And I feel for these guys. And, you know, I did not want to see members of the military put in a position where they have to make these kind of decisions, but that's where we find ourselves.

[Janine Gibson]

Before I let you go, I have to just ask you about the Artemis 2 mission, because we've all been watching it. It's been a moment, point of light, I would say, in what has been a difficult week. And we've seen remarkable images, including this incredible Earthset image that people can see on the right of the screen right now recreating the iconic 1968 Earthrise photo on the left. And something that has struck me is just the way the astronauts on this mission have spoken about it and how from space the divisions among humans really disappear. I just wonder how you've been thinking about the split screen of this lunar mission and what it represents with this war and what it represents.

[Senator Mark Kelly]

That's a contrast, you know, for the time. Right. It makes me think back to 1968, Apollo 10, where Frank Borman, who, by the way was from Tucson, was the commander of the mission. I'm here in Tucson today, got a telegram from just like a random citizen who said, you saved 1968. You know, makes me think about that a little bit, you know, whether these folks are, you know, saving, you know, 20, 26 a little bit here with some positive news and something we can really rally around. A, a, a, a stark contrast to what we're dealing with in a lot of different areas of the world, you know, right now. So I'm, I was there at the Johnson Space center yesterday as they went around the moon. I have to say, Jan, I was really jealous, you know, what these, what these guys got to do. I wish while I was at NASA for 15 years that one of my four space flights would have been, you know, around the moon or to Mars or something like that. But I'm really proud of our country for being able to do this thing. No other country can do this right now. What we did in this past week.

[Janine Gibson]

Senator Mark Kelly, once and always an astronaut, too, thank you so much for being here with us tonight. Okay, coming up, Donald Trump. Donald Trump may have backed down from his threat to destroy Iran's entire civilization. For now, for now, for the moment. But the fact that he made that threat in the first place spark calls from Democrats and Republicans for Donald Trump to be removed from office. Maryland Governor Wes Moore is standing by. There's always a lot to ask him about. I'm going to ask him what he thinks about that when we come back. BlueAir is the official air care partner

[Senator Mark Kelly]

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[Governor Wes Moore]

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[Governor Wes Moore]

why have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster Nibbles in our yard for me? Because I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet Nibbles after his untimely end.

[Janine Gibson]

Huh?

[Senator Mark Kelly]

Nibbles gone too soon.

[Governor Wes Moore]

May he scurry and peep hey, sorry

[David Remnick]

about your pet, but I just wire stuff.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Nibbles would have loved you like a brother. Connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years Angie the one you trust. Define the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail].

[Janine Gibson]

Donald Trump may have backed down from his unhinged threat that Iran's whole civilization would die tonight. As of now, the threat itself is one more piece of evidence that his opponents are using to call for his removal from office through Section 4 of the 25th Amendment. And that is a process, of course, that has never been tried before, and one that almost certainly would not succeed, at least right now, because it requires the support of the majority of Trump's cabinet of sycophants, or two thirds of a Congress that is led by little lackey Mike Johnson. And yet despite despite that, the calls to invoke the 25th Amendment are still growing. Already, dozens of elected Democrats in Congress have called for Trump to be removed through this process. Democratic Governor J.B. pritzker did too. And just today, former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi joined the growing chorus. But now even some right wing voices are joining the call for Trump to be removed through the 25th Amendment, like far right conspiracy theorist Alec Jones, and maybe more notably by former Trump ally and former MAGA Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene. So, yeah, I guess you could say J.B. pritzker, Alex Jones, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Nancy Pelosi, y' all agree on something, which is the president being unfit to serve. Joining me now is Maryland Governor Wes Moore. Before getting into politics, he served as a lieutenant with the 82nd Airborne Division in the U.S. army. Governor Moore, it's always great to see you. I mentioned it's unlikely to happen. It's great to see you. It's because it's because of who's in charge. And I talked a little bit with Senator Mark Kelly about this, too. But it's important to talk about whether the President of the United States is fit for office. There's a growing chorus. Do you think we're at a point where invoking the 25th Amendment is warranted? What's your view?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Well, I mean, I've long said that Donald Trump should not be the President of the United States. You know, what we saw this weekend was not in some kind of aberration. It was a continuation of the fact that he every single day continues to show that there's an unhinged nature to the way that he is approaching the job. And frankly, something where he is more selfish than selfless in the way that he approaches public service. I also know that I do not have a vote. I know that I am not holding my breath to think that the Republicans are gonna have the courage to be able to do that. And so I'm gonna focus on the things that I have to focus on as the governor of Maryland. The fact that we are watching how gas prices have jumped over a dollar in the past month, how energy prices have doubled over the process of the past year, how grocery prices continue to rise because the president continues to do this, illegal tariffs because he's throwing temper tantrums. And so we're just continuing to find ways of actually making our communities safer, making sure we're addressing rising costs and making sure that we're protecting Maryland from the fact that we have a President of the United States who, frankly, should not be in that seat right now.

[Janine Gibson]

I mentioned this. You're a veteran who served in the 82nd Airborne. We've talked about your service before. Thousands of soldiers from your old unit have been deployed to the Middle east amid this war and are now awaiting possible orders. Obviously, they're watching and seeing what the president is posting. I'm sure they're hoping for an end to this war as well. But those soldiers have a commander in chief who you say shouldn't be in office. I think others have said that, too. I wonder what your advice would be to current members of the 82nd Airborne about what this president might still ask them to do.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Well, I think we have a president who is. We have soldiers who are waiting for orders but are still waiting for clarity of mission. Right. They're waiting for the commander in chief to tell them what to do, but they've yet to hear the commander in chief to tell them why they are doing it. And that is the problem that we have. We have the world's greatest military. We have a military that can accomplish anything at a moment's notice. No one is denying the Power, the strength or the definitive success ratio of the United States military. But just like any toy, well, the President's using it like a toy that should just be used in any way that the President sees fit. And so I continue to pray for our service members, and I continue to pray for their families, that they don't just receive clarity from the commander in Chief, but also that they're receiving orders that are legal, because that is how they have to think about ways they are going to manage this next phase of not just these operations, but the next phase of their lives.

[Janine Gibson]

I know for people like yourself or people who are no longer serving but have served in the past, this is incredibly difficult to watch and know what people are being asked to do who are serving in the military. Have you spoken to others you served with, and can you share some of their thoughts on what they're seeing?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Absolutely. And I've had numerous conversations with both people who are still in service now, but also people who I serve with in Afghanistan. You know, I remember the morning that we got word that the 82nd Airborne Division, my old division, was mobilizing to the Middle East. And I spoke with someone who I served with in the 82nd, and, you know, he was even saying that, you know, when we were serving overseas, there were a few things that we always knew. One was that the use of military force was the last option that we had exhausted, that we should have exhausted every single option before military force was used. The second was that we had a clarity on mission and a clarity on the end game. And the third was that an international coalition was being built that would help take the pressure off of U.S. forces. The problem with this operation is none of those three things have been accomplished. Where initially it was said that, you know, that we had an imminent threat of nuclear weapons, despite the fact that months ago we were told that their nuclear program was obliterated. Then it was told that we could not deal with the Ayatollah and this current regime and that we had to change the regime, even though now the new leadership is even more hardened than the leadership we had before. Then it was told about the Strait of Hormuz and the idea that the Iranians should not be in charge of the Strait of Hormuz, and it's the Iranians right now who are in charge of the Strait of Hormuz. And so we continue to see a goalpost that is moving because we have a president who is trying to figure out how to get out of this and save face. And that's not Fair to the soldiers who then have to go and execute on these operations.

[Janine Gibson]

I want to ask you about another reason you're in the news right now, which is your record in the military and in office has come under remarkably close scrutiny by the Baltimore so now face is not a bad thing. Obviously, journalism is important and certainly public figures should be scrutinized. But what people should know about the larger context is that the paper is now owned by a Trump ally named David Smith, who is the executive chairman of the Sinclair Broadcast Group. We've talked about the Sinclair Broadcast Group a lot on this show. And according to new reporting from Semaphore, the paper has brought on a team of investigators from Sinclair to come through your record and in one message to your staff, they even threatened to present their findings to the Secretary of the Army's office. Now, I have been, I have dealt with a lot of investigative reporters in my time. I have never heard of anything like that before. But explain for our viewers what is happening here.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Well, it's actually a very sad day because the Baltimore sun used to be our paper of record. It's now become the paper of the right wing and I think we've seen how their readership has continued to decline. But it's happened because you've had a MAGA billionaire who is now currying favor for the President of the United States and utilizing what used to be a prize paper for our region and now turning into something that is not much more than right wing trouble. You know, the, I'm deeply proud of my military service. I'm deeply proud of the fact that I served with, with, with people who I respect. And frankly, no one in the army questions my, the United States army doesn't question my integrity. The soldiers I serve with don't question my integrity. But we are seeing how the right wing and these right wing billionaires like David Smith is then using his wealth to be able to manipulate local media and is doing it not just in Maryland, but this is a canary in the coal mine for things that are happening all over the country. And they're doing it to curry favor for Donald Trump. And so it's unfortunate that this is where local news for the Baltimore sun and for the Sinclair properties have happened. But I do think it's an important warning shot for the rest of the country as well.

[Janine Gibson]

Governor Westmore, thank you as always for joining me. I really appreciate it. Okay. My next guest says says the first casualty of Donald Trump's war with Iran was the truth. But thanks to some incredible new reporting out today, we are getting closer to the truth about how and why Donald Trump launched his war with Iran in the first place. David Remnick is the editor in chief of the New Yorker and he joins me next. The reasons why Donald Trump ultimately decided to start a war of choice with Iran remain unclear. But today we got some incredible new insight into how he came to make that decision because excerpts from a forthcoming book by New York Times White House reporters Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan is out and excerpts of it are. And they draw on extensive interviews with House insiders conducted on the condition of anonymity. And they confirm what we have long suspected, that Trump has not been listening to his own advisors. We certainly know that. Or the intelligence presented from his own intelligence community. We know that, too. He has been listening to the intelligence presented in part by other countries, namely Israel. According to an excerpt from the forthcoming book. In the situation room on February 11, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu made a hard statement cell suggesting that Iran was ripe for regime change and expressing the belief that a joint U. S. Israeli mission could finally bring an end to the Islamic Republic. Netanyahu and his team outlined conditions they portrayed as pointing to near certain victory. Iran's ballistic missile program could be destroyed in a few weeks. They argued the regime would be so weakened that it could not choke off the Strait of Hormuz and the likelihood that Iran would land blows against U.S. interests in neighboring countries was assessed as minimal. That was their assessment. Sounds good to me. Trump reportedly said Netanyahu took this as a green light. So there is that. Joining me now is David Remnick, editor of the New Yorker, for which he recently authored a piece titled the first casualty of Trump's War in Iran Was the Truth. An excellent, excellent, must read piece. I'm so grateful you could be here, David, because I think all of us are trying to consume all of the reporting out there and trying to make sense of what exactly is going on. And I started the show by talking about man, Trump put this Truth Social post out. It's not easy, I know. I hope you're gonna help me here or help me at least use your decades of expertise because Trump put out, as you know, a post about a two week ceasefire on Truth Social. The Iranian foreign minister said the Strait of Hormones would be reopened if there was basically coordination with the Iranian military, which is a huge caveat. The Iranian National Security Council, which of course is spe speaking to the audience of the Iranians, put out a statement that through Fars that basically said the US had agreed to the 10 point plan, which seems hard to believe as you're looking at this kind of through the eyes of a skeptical journalist. What is your assessment of what exactly is going on with this ceasefire right now?

[David Remnick]

Well, let's take the camera back a little bit. This is a strategic disaster. A disaster. We had a nuclear deal with Iran that was imperfect, but it was hard fought, hard won and was in place. And the only reason that Donald Trump came along in 2018 and abrogated that treaty, that what's called the JCPOA, was because it was crafted by Barack Obama and not him. The biggest, the existential threat that exists in Iran was the nuclear one. Yes, it has ballistic missiles. Yes, it has proxies, and there are. They're dreadful and it's a dreadful regime. But the existential threat to Israel, to the region and beyond, was the nuclear threat. And that was under control. Imperfectly, but under control. It went out the window. And then in his second term, he has now done this. It is a strategic disaster on every level. If anything, it has the potential to speed up Iran's desire to have a nuclear weapon, because now it, like North Korea, it sees it as the one guarantee it won't be attacked again. We've ruined our relationships potentially with many countries in our NATO alliance. We've thrown out the window what was left of our global leadership. I mean, the list goes on here. Do we leave the region if this is the end of the war, and I dearly, dearly hope it is, do we leave it a more secure place? Do the Iranian people now trust us after we threatened to decimate their civilization? Who talks like this? It used to be that a president's dignity was called into question when he wore a tan suit to a press conference.

[Janine Gibson]

I remember that one.

[David Remnick]

I'm a president who speaks like that. I thought you might. I thought you might.

[Janine Gibson]

It is so important to put it in the perspective, you just put it in about what's going on and what the impact has already been of just over a month of a war. Let me ask you about the role of Netanyahu here. You've profiled him, you've reported on him for a very long time. The New York Times points out how he was invited into the Situation Room and he basically made this argument and pitch to Trump about striking Iran. He has made a version of that pitch to several presidents that I know of, but for decades. Are you at all surprised that he was successful, reportedly, in helping to convince Trump to go to a war, to start a war with Iran.

[David Remnick]

Well, I read Maggie Haberman and John Swan's reporting in the Times, and it's excellent. But here's what it says. In essence, that Donald Trump believes who he wants to believe. He has his own vice president telling him this is a terrible idea. He has General Kaine saying this is a very risky thing that you're doing. And, you know, he was very straightforward about military capabilities, but also gave him every sense of the risk. It was made very plain to him that the Israelis at Netanyahu had no reason to have confidence in the notion of regime change. How would that possibly happen when the regime is so brutal and they just killed tens of thousands of their own people and would not hesitate for a second to do it again? And this is an opposition that is rich and runs very deep, but it's not an organized opposition. It's not like, you know, Eastern Europe in the late 80s that doesn't exist because of the brutality of the regime. There's no Gorbachev figure. There's no dissident movement that doesn't get crushed. It is a horrific, a horrific picture. But Donald Trump chose to believe what he wanted to believe, and he stumbled forward and for all the reasons we know, both characterological and political. And now we're in the situation that we're in and the Iranian regime persists.

[Janine Gibson]

I mentioned your excellent piece arguing the first casualty of this war was the truth. We unfortunately have a minute left here, but tell us what you mean by that.

[David Remnick]

Well, it's an old saying by Aeschylus in ancient Greece that the first thing that goes out the window when you commit war is the truth. This president never even pretended to make a case about this to the American people. He was in the midst of negotiations, ostensibly, and it's quite possible, according to many analysts, that when the Omani foreign minister came forward and said the day before the attack began that these negotiations were progressing in a halfway decent way, that there was a colossal misunderstanding between the Iranian negotiators and the American negotiators, and this all could have been avoided, not without trouble, not without prolonged negotiation or deception and a prolonged process. But anything is better than what just transpired and what may transpire further.

[Janine Gibson]

David Remnick, thank you. Thank you so much for joining me. We'll be right back. That does it for me tonight. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on Ms. Now. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.

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[Governor Wes Moore]

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