EPSTEIN ACCUSER SPEAKS OUT ON TRUMP: Maria Farmer wants to testify, access her records

Summary

Detailed Summary of "EPSTEIN ACCUSER SPEAKS OUT ON TRUMP: Maria Farmer wants to testify, access her records"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Briefing with Jen Psaki
• Host/Author: MSNBC
• Description: Jen Psaki tackles the biggest issues of the week and features one-on-one interviews with newsmakers.
• Episode Release Date: July 25, 2025

---

1. Introduction and Overview

Jen Psaki opens the episode by highlighting significant news topics, particularly focusing on the ongoing investigations related to Jeffrey Epstein and his connections to high-profile individuals, including former President Donald Trump. She introduces key figures who will be featured in the discussion, setting the stage for an in-depth exploration of the Epstein scandal and its broader implications.

---

2. Todd Blanche’s Interactions with Ghislaine Maxwell

[02:10] Jen Psaki discusses Todd Blanche, Donald Trump's former personal attorney, who has been actively engaging with Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein’s convicted co-conspirator. Blanche's recent meetings with Maxwell raise questions about the intentions behind these interactions.

• Blanche’s Statement:
  "[03:38] Todd Blanche: We had a very productive day today with the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche and Glenn Maxwell. He took a full day and asked a lot of questions. And Ms. Maxwell answered every single question. She never stopped, she never invoked a privilege, she never declined to answer. She answered all the questions truthfully, honestly and to the best of her ability."

Psaki highlights the controversy surrounding Blanche's meetings, emphasizing Maxwell's criminal background and questioning the purpose of these discussions.

---

3. Interview with Maria Farmer and Attorney Jennifer Freeman

Introduction of Maria Farmer:
Maria Farmer is introduced as one of the first women to accuse Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell of sexual assault. She shares her harrowing experiences and the challenges she has faced over the past three decades in seeking justice.

[08:27] Jen Psaki welcomes Maria Farmer and her attorney, Jennifer Freeman, commending her courage in speaking publicly about her ordeal.

Maria’s Testimony Highlights:

• Traumatization by Media Exposure:
  "[08:51] Maria Farmer: ...every time we have to see his face. And it's a case that has just never gone away. It just. It just won't go away."

• Initial Reporting and Government Response:
  "[12:36] Host: ...Do you remember what you spoke to them about during this interview and what details you shared with them during this interview?"
  "[13:15] Maria Farmer: ...we didn’t want anyone to know how dangerous this was. ...they literally just hung up. And I heard nothing for 10 years."

• Alleged Encounter with Donald Trump:
  "[15:38] Maria Farmer: ...don’t know what that meant... I felt threatened."

Legal Struggles and Health Battle:
Maria discusses her ongoing legal battle to access her FBI reports, which she believes are crucial for bringing accountability to the Epstein case. She also bravely shares her personal struggle with two forms of cancer.

• Maria’s Determination:
  "[16:11] Maria Farmer: ...this is pedophilia. Anyone can be a pedophile. ...this is so damaging."

---

4. Discussion on the Nature of Ghislaine Maxwell

Maria’s Stance on Maxwell:
Maria firmly rejects any notion that Ghislaine Maxwell could be considered a victim, highlighting her role as a predator.

• Maria’s Assertion:
  "[21:45] Maria Farmer: ...I've never met a more predatory, terrifying human being in my entire life.... The woman is not a victim. She's a victimizer."

Attorney Jennifer Freeman’s Critique:
Jennifer Freeman echoes Maria’s sentiments, criticizing the Justice Department's handling of Maxwell and emphasizing that Maxwell is not a reliable witness.

• Freeman’s Statement:
  "[22:48] Jennifer Freeman: ...Ghislaine Maxwell is not a reliable witness. ...They made this conclusion without even talking to a single victim."

---

5. Interview with Investigative Reporter Julie K. Brown

[28:12] Julie K. Brown, an investigative reporter for the Miami Herald, joins the discussion to provide deeper insights into the Epstein case and Maxwell's role.

Key Points from Julie:

• Maxwell’s Manipulative Tactics:
  "...she was the mastermind of Epstein’s whole organization. ...she persuaded them to bring him more girls."

• Impact on Survivors:
  "...the survivors have been repeatedly failed by authorities. ...now they're trying to portray Maxwell as a victim."

• Concerns Over Recent Meetings:
  "[35:01] Julie K. Brown: ...She’s looking at this as an opportunity to capitalize on perhaps getting some kind of deal.... It makes no sense."

Julie underscores the betrayal felt by survivors due to the handling of the Epstein case and criticizes the recent meetings between Todd Blanche and Maxwell.

---

6. Congressional Efforts and Subpoena of Epstein Files

Introduction of Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley:
Pressley discusses the House Oversight Committee's recent actions to subpoena the Epstein files, including the infamous birthday book containing notable names like Donald Trump.

• Pressley’s Commentary:
  "[38:44] Ayanna Pressley: ...for decades there has been a dereliction of duty here in getting accountability, truth, transparency and justice for these survivors."

Committee Actions:

• Subpoena for Epstein Files:
  Pressley explains the committee's strategy to obtain the full Epstein files, emphasizing the importance of transparency and accountability.

• Response to Recent Developments:
  "[40:52] Ayanna Pressley: ...if you are violated, ...it is a life sentence."
  She highlights the emotional and psychological toll on survivors and the necessity of proper investigative actions.

Implications for Survivors:

• Support for Maria and Other Victims:
  Pressley acknowledges Maria Farmer and other survivors, stressing the need for comprehensive justice and protection.

---

7. Conclusion and Forward Look

Jen Psaki wraps up the episode by reiterating the importance of continued investigation into the Epstein case, the need for accountability among high-profile individuals implicated, and the ongoing support for survivors like Maria Farmer. She previews upcoming segments that will delve further into the political maneuvers surrounding the case and the efforts to secure justice for the victims.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Maria Farmer on Media Traumatization:
  "[08:51] Maria Farmer: ...every time we have to see his face. And it's a case that has just never gone away."

• Todd Blanche on Meeting Maxwell:
  "[03:38] Todd Blanche: ...she answered every single question. She never stopped, she never invoked a privilege."

• Jennifer Freeman on Maxwell's Reliability:
  "[22:48] Jennifer Freeman: ...Ghislaine Maxwell is not a reliable witness."

• Ayanna Pressley on Survivor’s Justice:
  "[38:44] Ayanna Pressley: ...accountability, truth, transparency and justice for these survivors."

---

Key Takeaways

• Ongoing Legal and Political Maneuvers:
  Todd Blanche’s meetings with Ghislaine Maxwell raise serious concerns about the motives behind reopening discussions with a convicted sex offender.

• Survivors’ Struggle for Justice:
  Maria Farmer’s testimony sheds light on the long-term trauma faced by Epstein’s victims and the persistent challenges in seeking justice.

• Critique of Justice Department’s Handling:
  Both Maria Farmer and Jennifer Freeman criticize the Justice Department for its inadequate response and handling of the Epstein case.

• Congressional Push for Transparency:
  Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley emphasizes the necessity of accessing the full Epstein files to ensure accountability and support for survivors.

• Maxwell’s Role and Public Perception:
  Interviews highlight the distorted narrative emerging in some circles that attempt to portray Maxwell as a victim, undermining the experiences of the actual survivors.

---

This episode of "The Briefing with Jen Psaki" provides a comprehensive examination of the lingering Epstein scandal, spotlighting the voices of survivors and scrutinizing the legal and political systems' responses. Through in-depth interviews and expert commentary, the podcast underscores the urgent need for accountability and justice for those affected by Epstein and his associates.

Transcript

[Host]

It's Birch Lane's Black Friday in July sale happening July 24th through 28th. Save up to 70% on timeless furniture and Decor. Shop classic style for Joyful [e-mail] okay, let's talk about Claude, the if you know, you know, AI assistant that's got everyone buzzing. Claude is like having a super smart, emotionally intelligent buddy in your pocket that responds like a real person would. Claude can help with just about anything. Whether you need advice, inspiration, or even someone to help craft that perfect text to your crush, Claude can switch from being your life to your personal stylist to your side hustle strategist all in one conversation. Head to Claude.com, that's C-L-A-U--E.com and start chatting with Claude for free. We have a lot to get to tonight, a lot of news today and a lot to get to. And one of the things we're gonna get to right at the top is one of the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse will be here to tell her story and talk about the moment 29 years ago when she urged law enforcement to look into both Epstein and Trump. I'll also be joined later this hour by Julie K. Brown, the award winning reporter whose investigations into Jeffrey Epstein helped lead to the 2019 charges against him. But before we get there, I want to start with this moment from just last year. Donald Trump sitting in a Manhattan courtroom facing 34 felony counts. And he's flanked by his two loyal personal attorneys. Now on the right is a guy you may recognize, Trump lawyer Emil Bovey, who, despite suggesting the DOJ should tell courts do f u and ignore court orders, was rewarded for his loyal service to Trump today when the Senate voted to advance his nomination for a lifetime appointment to the federal bench. That's Emil Bovey. But on the left is Trump lawyer Todd Blanche, who was rewarded for his loyal service to Trump with a top job at the Department of Justice as the deputy attorney general. There he is right there with his head down. And Todd Blanche has made it clear from the beginning that despite his new job, he is still very much Trump's personal lawyer. Are you still Donald Trump's lawyer?

[Todd Blanche]

I mean, yes, my attorney client relationship.

[Ghislaine Maxwell's Lawyer]

With President Trump remains.

[Host]

Yes, that was the deputy attorney General. That was how he described his relationship to Trump at his confirmation hearing. My attorney client relationship with President Trump remains. And this week we learned from the Wall Street Journal that the man that Todd Blanche says he still has an attorney client relationship with is reportedly in the Epstein files. And it is in that capacity, under those circumstances, that today Todd Blanche went to meet with Jeffrey Epstein's co conspirator, Ghislaine Maxwell, to ask her, what do you know? Now, after the meeting concluded, Todd Blanche tweeted, today I met with Ghislaine Maxwell and I will continue my interview of her tomorrow. So it sounds like there will be even more meetings after today between Trump's former personal lawyer and this convicted child sex predator. Now, we do not know what Todd Blanche and Ghislaine Maxwell talked about in that meeting at this point in time, but we do know that Todd Blanche has a long personal friendship with the lawyer representing Ghislaine Maxwell, a man by the name of David Marcus. You can see him there on your screen too. According to the New York Times, after Mr. Blanche unsuccessfully defended Mr. Trump at his trial last year, one of Mr. Blanche's first interviews was on Mr. Marcus podcast. And here was how Maxwell attorney and Todd Blanche buddy David Marcus described their meeting today.

[Todd Blanche]

We had a very productive day today with the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche and Glenn Maxwell. He took a full day and asked a lot of questions. And Ms. Maxwell answered every single question. She never stopped, she never invoked a privilege, she never declined to answer. She answered all the questions truthfully, honestly and to the best of her ability.

[Host]

Now remember, the woman that he is talking about is not some do gooder, whistleblowing truth teller. This woman was sentenced to 20 years in prison for conspiring with Jeffrey Epstein to sexual abusing. Sexually abusing children. And she was also charged with two separate counts of perjury for lying under oath. But her lawyer says that she and Trump's lawyer had a very productive meeting. All of this begs the question, which is the one we're all wondering. What does the Trump administration really want to know from Ghislaine Maxwell over the course of more than one day? Or do they really just not want anyone else to know anything more from Ghislaine Maxwell? Which is what I suspect. And what does Ghislaine Maxwell think she can get from the Trump administration? I mean, we know she wants a pardon. We know that. Like I said, we don't know what happened in that meeting at this point. But we do know that ever since this meeting was announced, some of Trump's most loyal supporters have started to change their tone on Maxwell. Now, in their minds, she's gone from convicted criminal to potentially a credible witness who perhaps can protect the leader of their movement. And some have even offensively described her as a victim.

[Todd Blanche]

Maybe she wants Immunity. Maybe she wants some sort of protection. I don't know. But it's definitely something that is worthy of praise and worthy of our encouragement. If you do have this information and it's able to come forward, then maybe, maybe there could be a discussion about some kind of the. I don't know.

[Host]

I think this is great.

[Todd Blanche]

I do have a feeling that she has been. She just might be a victim. She just might be.

[Host]

She just might be a victim. It's all worthy of praise. I mean, that is how some Trump world figures are now describing Ghislaine Maxwell. Let me just state this now for the record to be very clear. Convicted child sex abuser Ghislaine Maxwell is not the victim here. The real victims, the survivors, are people like Jane. Now, we don't know Jane's full name, but we know that Jane was 14 years old when she met Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell at a youth camp in Michigan. Here's what the story said. Quote, Epstein first abused Jane when she was 14. Jane said that there were sexual encounters with Epstein for the next three years around every two weeks. Sometimes Maxwell was in the room. During the sexual abuse, there were occasions when Maxwell touched Jane's breasts. Jane is a real survivor. So is Carolyn, who testified that she went to Epstein's home over 100 times from age 14 to 18, where she was told to massage Jeffrey Epstein. Carolyn said that at the age of 14, before one of the massages, Maxwell came in and felt my boobs and my hips and my buttocks and said that I had a great body for Mr. Epstein and his friends. And then there's Maria Farmer. Unlike some of Epstein's other victims, Maria Farmer was 25 years old when she says Epstein assaulted her, though her younger sister, who also says she was abused by Epstein, was a minor. Maria Farmer was an employee of Jeffrey Epstein's at the time. She said that in 1996, she was at the estate of Victoria's Secret CEO Leslie Wexner with Epstein and Maxwell. She says that Epstein and Maxwell violently groped her until she fled the room and barricaded herself in another part of the building. And during her time in Epstein's orbit, Maria Farmer says she also encountered Donald Trump. She told the New York Times that in 1995, quote, late one night, Mr. Epstein unexpectedly called her to his offices in a luxury building in Manhattan. She arrived in running shorts. Mr. Trump then arrived wearing a business suit and started to hover over her. Ms. Farmer said she recalled feeling scared as Mr. Trump stared at her bare legs. Then Mr. Epstein entered the room, and she recalled him saying to Mr. Trump, no, no, she's not here for you. The two men left the room, and Ms. Farmer said she could hear Mr. Trump commenting that he thought Ms. Farmer was 16 years old. Joining me now is Maria Farmer, along with her attorney, Jennifer Freeman. And before we get started, I just want to say to you, Maria, I think it is incredibly courageous that you are continuing to tell your story in a very, very public way. It cannot be easy, and I'm very grateful for you being here with us tonight. So let me start just there. Maria.

[Maria Farmer]

Thank you, Jeff. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

[Host]

Absolutely. Let me start by asking you. I mean, this nightmare has followed you for a very, very long time. I mean, decades. And I'm sure that Jeffrey Epstein's re emergence, I mean, all over the news, has been incredibly painful. How are you? How are you doing? How are you digesting all of this?

[Maria Farmer]

Thank you for asking that. That's very thoughtful. Because a lot of people aren't aware of every time his picture is on one of their podcasts or, you know, and I've asked several people, can you please not just flash his picture everywhere or Maxwell's and not glamorize them? But thank you for asking that, because a lot of people aren't aware that that re traumatizes victims every time we have to see his face. And it's a case that has just never gone away. It just. It just won't go away. And I need your audience to understand that. You know, I reported this almost three decades ago, so a lot of people will say, oh, why is she just coming forward now? And they think it's political, and it's not. It's something I've been working on pretty much. I dedicated all of my youth to this. And so I'm doing it not just for me, but for the victims who are now deceased and the victims that are very much alive. And I want to get justice for all of them. I feel that for my little sister to have gone through what she went through and to have had to testify against Maxwell and then have to suffer, and there are others that I love very much who are suffering this right now about Maxwell, it's completely unacceptable. Why would Maxwell be given a voice when she is a convicted pedophile? I just. It's been very difficult. And I appreciate the question. I appreciate you asking, of course.

[Host]

And I think we're all grateful for you having the courage to be here and tell your story and be out there and Let me ask you, because this is one of the reasons I think it's so important to hear from people like you who are so courageous. I mean, you and your sister, as you just. As you just referenced Annie, were the first survivors to come forward and try to tell the authorities about what Epstein and his associates were doing. You first. You first went to the NYPD in 1996, then the FBI. You said you felt like you weren't taken seriously. You've repeated that I was dismissed. And you were now suing the federal government, accusing it of negligence and failing to protect victims of sexual assault. And I just wanted our viewers to be aware of all of that and all the time you've spent on this and trying to get this story told. Tell us more about the story you told to the police.

[Maria Farmer]

Well, when I called, I told them I was reporting kind of an international pedophile. And I called it child pornography ring, because they didn't call it CSAM yet. But that part is one of the most important parts to me, because some photographs that were personal photographs of mine that I used for working from. Not to copy exactly, but they were anatomy studies for my art, and I was doing these series of paintings for the movie as Good As It Gets. This wasn't for me. It wasn't for Epstein. It was actually for a major producer. And because of being held captive, I didn't get to finish that. But basically, those photographs are a permanent thing that Ghislaine Maxwell stole from the basement at Leslie Wexner's guest house. And those photographs are a permanent way that my sisters are being abused and that I'm being abused. And so when I told the federal government, I said, this really frightens me because I believe if they did this to us, they're doing it to everyone. And I see a lot of children coming in, allegedly for Victoria's Secret modeling or for modeling for Katie Ford. You know, they had all these model scouts around them trump all these people, and they were allegedly auditioning models. But for Victoria's Secret, the girls didn't have any breasts. I didn't understand. And so basically, it's been very an arduous journey over 29 years of just trying to get people to hear me. So I'm so grateful that you're bringing attention to this this evening.

[Host]

Nope. And we want you to be able to tell all the aspects of your story that it's so important for people to understand. And it wasn't the only. You didn't only go to the FBI and the police back in the 90s. You also an interview with agents in 2006. And one of our legal correspondents, Lisa Rubin, was able to obtain the FBI's notes from that interview. I'm showing some of them right there on the screen. There are a ton of rejections in these notes, as you can see. And I know this was some time ago, but do you remember what you spoke to them about during this interview and what details you shared with them during this interview? Yes.

[Maria Farmer]

Yeah. So basically, I want to make it really clear because people don't understand this. My little sister was only 16, and I didn't. She didn't go to the FBI in 96. I did that. And I protected my family because I didn't want anyone to know how dangerous this was. And so basically after 1996, they literally just hung up. And I heard nothing for 10 years. And then I got a knock on the door. I was in the woods of North Carolina, and there were these two agents standing there. And Agent Nesbitt Kuykendall said, we're here about your 1996 FBI report. And I was kind of shocked. And it's because I have so much trauma. I had to, like, I was kind of making jokes and trying to give them orange juice and cookies and, you know, just make light of it. And it's so traumatic. Like, my sister was selling, like, products to them. You know, we didn't know what to do with the FBI. We told them the entire story of what occurred with Ghislaine Maxwell being a sexual predator and predating children. She used to say, I need to go get the new vials at 3 o' clock because the children were getting out of school. And of course I would ask to quit. And I said, what is this? And she said, no, no, no, no. They're just models for Victoria's Secret. Maria, just calm down. You know, so basically, there was a lot of gaslighting that occurred. But in 2006, they hunted me down and they asked me to testify in the federal trial in Florida. And then they gave the sweetheart deal. And so I never testified. And then when it came time to testify in this trial, I actually was in ICU and chemotherapy. And a lot of people say she didn't even get to testify. And I'm like. Because I was incapacitated. But my sister did testify, and my mother. And our stories have never changed. They're very credible.

[Host]

I did not realize that.

[Maria Farmer]

I just want my files.

[Host]

Of course you do. And I didn't realize about your health journey, too. You have been through a tremendous, tremendous amount. Thank you. You also talked about a night in 1995 when you were at Jeffrey Epstein's office and Donald Trump came by and made a lewd comment. And then you overheard Epstein say to him, she's not for you. And we just told this story because you've told it publicly before.

[Maria Farmer]

Right.

[Host]

And in response to that, and I want to ask you about that, but I just wanted to note that in response to that, a White House speaker spokesperson responded saying, this is recycled old fake news of the highest order that was already peddled more than six years concocted by Democrats and the liberal media, just like they did with the Russiagate scandal, which was just proven today. The president was never in his office. The fact is that the president kicked him out of his club for being a creep. There is a lot packed in there. Similar themes we've seen in other statements, I will say. But it's about you. What is your response to that?

[Maria Farmer]

Right. So first of all, that's so insulting and disingenuous because I reported this in 1996. And I have to say, like, Donald Trump was a Democrat when I reported him. So him saying that this was a Republican thing, this is not a partisan thing. This is pedophilia. Anyone can be a pedophile. It's literally, unfortunately, it just happens to be a lot of Republicans. And that's a fact. And those same Republicans want to entertain Ghislaine Maxwell like Tim Burchett wants to entertain her and flash her around and act like we victims should not be heard from. He didn't want to speak to me. He wanted to speak to Ghislaine and give her a voice in an audience. And my little sister is one of her victims and so am I. So this is so damaging. And yes, I'm fighting two cancers. So I would like to be able to retire and have my FBI reports so that I can help bring accountability to everyone. It's not just me I'm representing. I have the weight of all the young women on my shoulders right now.

[Host]

You certainly do. And I am again grateful for you being here. We have to sneak in a very quick break. I have more questions for you. I hope you don't mind sticking around. Both you and Jennifer, thank you so much. We'll be right back.

[Todd Blanche]

Firestone Complete Auto Care's great big tire sale is here and it's time to get in on some serious savings. Get up to 200,000 doll. $280 off when you buy four eligible Bridgestone or Firestone Tires Firestone Complete Auto Care book [e-mail] condition supplies in store.

[Ghislaine Maxwell's Lawyer]

For details Finding the music you love shouldn't be hard. That's why Pandora makes it easy to explore all your favorites and discover new artists and genres you'll love. Enjoy a personalized listening experience simply by selecting any song or album and we'll make a station crafted just for you. Best of all, you can listen for free. Download Pandora on the Apple App Store or Google Play and start hearing the soundtrack to your life.

[Todd Blanche]

Comcast is committed to bringing access to the Internet to all Americans, including rural communities across the country like Sussex County, Delaware.

[Ayanna Pressley]

We were being left behind. Everybody around us seemed to have Internet, but we did not. High speed Internet is one of those good things that we needed to help us move our farming, our small businesses, our recreation.

[Todd Blanche]

Learn more about how we're bringing our next generation network to more people across the [e-mail] investmentinamerica.

[Host]

Back with me is Maria Farmer and her lawyer, Jennifer Freeman. Maria was one of the first women to accuse convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and his accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell of sexual assault. And she has described an alleged encounter with Donald Trump back in 1995 as unsettling. Thanks again for being here with all of us. Before the break, we were just talking about that meeting and you responded to a White House comment on it. But I wanted to ask you more personally. I mean, you described that meeting. You heard Donald Trump or you heard Jeffrey Epstein say to Donald Trump, she's not for you. What was your reaction to that? What was going on in your head at the time about that? What did you think that meant?

[Maria Farmer]

Right. Well, I already felt kind of intimidated because it was in a dark office and I was alone with my new boss, you know, to be and this man, that's a powerful businessman. And so I felt intimidated, but that's not why I reported him. I reported him because when Epstein came out of the office, I was making a face at him because I felt threatened. And so I went and he kind of laughed and backed off. And as that was happening, Epstein walked out and said, oh, no, no, no, she's not here for you. And he emphasized, she's not here for you. And he said, come with me. And he walked him, he escorted him into another office. And I was like, who's in there? And when he said, oh, I thought she was 16, I thought, is there a 16 year old in there? Right. So what people need to understand is I'm not somebody crazy person who just reports people if they look at my legs or I'm in an office with them. But when someone is hanging out with a convicted or a pedophile and I discover that that pedophile has stolen my little sister, and then there's a powerful businessman that's making comments about me being my sister's age, then I think that the FBI needs to take a good look at it. And so that's why I asked that they do that. And as far as, like, the Republicans have really, really been kind of tormenting the victims. And so that's a separate topic.

[Host]

But I want to ask you about that, too. You know, and the part that just kept sticking with me is she's not for you. I just don't know what that meant. None of us knew what that meant. But it is hard to get it out of your head. Let me ask you, I mean, Ghislaine Maxwell, and I want to ask you, too, about this, Jennifer, and thank you so much for being here with us. Todd Blanche, who is now the deputy attorney general, is meeting with Maxwell in jail today. And as you have referenced a couple of times here. So I just want to give you, I want to ask you more about it. She's been a little, and I started talking about this, lionized, almost like lifted up by some who are suggesting she could be a victim, too. Who I just want. What is your reaction to that? What has been your reaction to that, Maria? Let me ask you that. And then I wanted to ask you, Jennifer, just what your thoughts are on that meeting.

[Maria Farmer]

Right. So I've never met a more predatory, terrifying human being in my entire life. And neither had Virginia Giuffre, and neither has Annie or Anoushka or many girls like Shantae Davies. There's hundreds of us that were preyed upon by Ghislaine Maxwell. She's a very dangerous person and she threatened my life on many occasions. I've had to move and be in hiding because of this predatory child predator and just victim predator. So it's completely unacceptable for anyone to call her a victim. The woman is not a victim. She's a victimizer.

[Host]

Let me ask you. That is a accurate and good way of putting it. Let me ask you, Jennifer, I mean, you are, you've obviously been standing side by side here with Maria, but you are also a lawyer, and I want to know your thoughts about seeing Trump's former personal lawyer, who's now the deputy attorney general, go spend the day privately with Ghislaine. Maxwell. He's going back tomorrow. What do you think about that?

[Jennifer Freeman]

This is deeply, deeply disturbing. Ghislaine Maxwell is not a reliable witness. To think that someone who is facing what she's facing the rest of her 20 year sentence and now might have an opportunity to change that dramatically by saying whatever she wants to say or needs to say to those in charge and in charge of her fate. It makes no sense. And she's not reliable. I just. I find it also very disturbing to equate her with the victim. She is. We've been dealing with the Epstein victims for many years. Maria and many others. And they're the people that should be focused on here. And there's absolutely no attention to the victims. For example, there was the issuance of this two week. This memorandum two weeks ago.

[Julie K. Brown]

What?

[Jennifer Freeman]

That was issued without talking to a single victim.

[Host]

Are you referring to the request for the grand jury files? That. That or a different request.

[Jennifer Freeman]

Sorry, I'll make that. Yeah. No, the FBI and DOJ memorandum that says we will not release any files. There's nothing to see here. We're not going to charge anyone. This is over. And this is. They made this conclusion, reach this conclusion without even talking to a single victim.

[Host]

Which is completely outrageous. Let me ask you on that front. I mean, because there's also been this call to release the files from the grand jury, which are very narrow and you can describe it further, but one of the steps they're supposed to take is reach out as a part of the victim notices process. Have they done that at all? Have you heard from them, Jennifer?

[Jennifer Freeman]

Not a peep. Nothing. So they have not done their job in really, truly trying to get those records. But this is really. Those records are, even if they got them, are a spit in the Ocean. They have 300 gigabytes of data and physical evidence sitting in their offices. The grand jury materials could be somewhat interesting, but that's not the guts of it.

[Host]

No, certainly not. Let me ask you, Maria. There's been some. I don't know if it's progress, some push to subpoena the Epstein files to learn more. That's moved to through the House Oversight Committee yesterday. Do you see that as progress? And if Congress asks you to testify publicly or behind closed doors, is that something you'd be willing to do?

[Maria Farmer]

I've been waiting to testify. David Boyce had promised I would be able to testify, and it didn't happen. And now it looks like they're wanting Ghislaine to testify. It's my turn. Yes.

[Host]

So you would Be willing. Well, that's a significant thing. And yes, absolutely.

[Maria Farmer]

I'm waiting.

[Host]

I hope somebody out there is watching and ask you. Let me ask you both. Jennifer, let me start with you. If you're able to gain access to the Epstein files, you may, I guess, if Congress has them and if they've contacted you. First of all, let me ask, has Congress contacted you about sharing anything from what they've subpoenaed?

[Jennifer Freeman]

No, they have not.

[Host]

Okay, I hope they do. Let me ask you, then, if you were to gain access. I hope so, too. Somebody watching better be contacting you. Let me ask you, if you were to gain access, and I certainly hope you do, if they follow through with this, and I think they will, what are you going to look for first?

[Jennifer Freeman]

Well, first we're going to look for Maria's records, which we've been asking for for years. And in response, we got, for example, a recent memo that's from the government that says, we'll be back to you by November 2027. That is completely unacceptable. Jen, the reality of this is that this is one of the largest law enforcement failures in US History. Maria went to the FBI, gave them all the information they needed, talked about child sex abuse, trafficking, child porn, gave them the information. If they had done their job, nearly 25 years of sex abuse and other crimes could have been avoided. But, and this is truly tragic, 29. And unacceptable that they failed to do their job.

[Host]

You have both been so generous with your time. I just want to ask Maria, before you go, you've been so courageous to speak out publicly. And if you could speak right now to any of the other victims who say they have been assaulted by Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell, what would you say to them? Because I know a lot of people are struggling right now.

[Maria Farmer]

Right. Well, there's a few of them I'm going to be reaching out to. And I want them to know that I love them. I'm so proud of people like Jennifer Rose and Shantae Davies and Marika and just Anoushka. They're the most beautiful young girls that were harmed. And I'm much older. I'm the den mother. And I'm mad. I'm the angry, you know, bear. And I want those girls protected.

[Host]

I'm sure they're grateful to have a den mother like you out there speaking bravely on their behalf. The old one, Maria Farmer, Jennifer Freeman, thank you both so much for being out here and sharing your story.

[Maria Farmer]

Thank you, Jen.

[Host]

When we come back, I'm going to be joined by the reporter who got so many of Epstein's victims to talk, which ultimately led to a second look at his crimes and a new arrest. Julie K. Brown of the Miami Herald joins me after a very quick break.

[Ghislaine Maxwell's Lawyer]

Finding the music you love shouldn't be hard. That's why Pandora makes it easy to explore all your favorites and discover new artists and genres you'll love. Enjoy a personalized listening experience simply by selecting any song or album, and we'll make a station crafted just for you. Best of all, you can listen for free, download Pandora on the Apple App Store or Google Play and start hearing the soundtrack to your life.

[Todd Blanche]

Need to restock inventory, cover seasonal dips, or manage payroll? OnDeck's small business line of credit provides immediate access to funds up to $100,000 exactly when your business needs. With flexible draws, transparent pricing and full control over repayment, you can tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. Apply [e-mail] and funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by On Deck or Celtic Bank. On Deck does not land in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

[Host]

Now.

[Todd Blanche]

I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal, so there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Host]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required New customer offer for first three months only Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks Busy.

[Maria Farmer]

Taxes and fees extra see mintmobile.com.

[Julie K. Brown]

Virginia.

[Host]

Roberts was working in the spa at Donald Trump's Mar a Lago Club in Palm beach when British socialite Ghislaine Maxwell introduced her to multimillionaire Jeffrey Epstein. That video was part of reporter Miami Herald Julie K. Brown's massive multi part expose on Jeffrey Epstein back in 2018. And the reason you know Jeffrey Epstein's name today is likely because of that reporting. The reason Epstein was arrested and prosecuted a second time after getting a slap on the wrist. The first time was in large part because of that reporting. And the reason we know as much as we do about Epstein's accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell, is because of that reporting. Julie K. Brown's original reporting identified nearly 80 victims, and Brown has stayed on the story ever since no one knows the story like she does. Joining me now is Julie K. Brown, investigative reporter for the Miami Herald and author of the book Perversion of the Jeffrey Epstein Story. Julie, thank you so much for being with us tonight. I've read so many of your interviews and it's great to be speaking with you. One of the travesties, in my view, as this story is taken on a renewed political life of its own, is that it has watered down the role of people like Ghislaine Maxwell. And that's what I was just speaking with Maria Farmer about in part. I know you have talked to so many victims and survivors. How do they think about Maxwell's role? How do they feel about her role and how she's being treated right now?

[Julie K. Brown]

Let me start by saying it was very difficult to listen to Maria. You know, I lived through a lot of these interviews, both when I was working on this research for the series and after. And, you know, I even feel it here when they speak because they've been through so much. And now that it's resurfaced in this way, it's, it's not only re. Traumatizing, but it's a, it's a great betrayal to these women who, some of whom, like Maria, who have tried repeatedly to get the attention of authorities to investigate this and to stop Epstein. He was able to do this for two decades and he was, you know, he got the sweetheart deal, he was released, he went right back to his jet setting life and right back to abusing young women and girls. So this has been a repeated pattern. And now with Maxwell, in some ways, that was the only semblance of justice that they received with her conviction. And now they're talking to her as if she's, you know, as some of the people in Trump's orbit or in the MAGA orbit was, were saying today on social media, they're talking as if she's a victim. She's a convicted pedophile. She is in prison because there were victims that testified that not only did she recruit them and groom them, but she in many ways, in their mind, was the mastermind of Epstein's whole organization. His is criminal organization because she was the one that started the pyramid scheme whereby she was recruiting these girls from spas and gyms around Palm Beach. And then once the girls started coming, ostensibly she, she persuaded them to come to give a wealthy man a massage that really wasn't a massage at all. Then they were sort of directed to bring him more girls. In other words, I won't I'll pay you the same amount of money for as many girls as you bring me. And they preyed upon girls who came from homes. Some of them were homeless, some of them were in foster care system. So she was the figure in this that they trusted to some degree. She was a very motherly kind of figure, a nurturing figure who was telling them, he's going to help you, he's going to help your career. And so they fell into this trap. In many cases, they couldn't get out because they were threatened. They were told, if you do this, if you don't follow what we're trying to tell you to do, I'm going to make it so that you never go to college. I'm going to make it so that you never have a career. I'm going to make it so that your family suffers. So they were even threatened. And Maxwell was very much a part of that.

[Host]

With all of this, which is so no one knows this story better than you. And it's so important for people to hear this because if they're just tuning in, they see this person who's been, again, lionized by some on the right, and it's incredibly troubling. She met today with, of course, Todd Blanche, who's the deputy Attorney General, Trump's former personal lawyer. We don't know what happened in that meeting. I'm not expecting you to tell us what happened in that meeting. But you know this story so well. What do you think she's hoping for a pardon is what's been reported. Presumably, Todd Blanche is Trump's personal lawyer. How do you look at this meeting that's continuing tomorrow?

[Julie K. Brown]

Well, she obviously doesn't want to stay in prison, and I'm sure she's looking at this as an opportunity to capitalize on perhaps getting some kind of a deal. I mean, I think the biggest fear of a lot of these victims, this is going to be the Sweetheart Deal 2.0, that they're going to somehow figure out a way to give her. Her, you know, a slap on the wrist. And for her telling the public or telling them what they want to hear, which is probably that Trump had nothing to do with the sex trafficking operation and that he was never had no knowledge of what Epstein was doing. I mean, why else would you send someone of such a high position who is, you know, the president's personal attorney to handle something like this? Normally, when you have someone you want to negotiate with over information, you would send a prosecutor, you would send FBI agents, you would send other people you don't send second in command @ the Justice Department to interview a potential person that you want information from unless you want something.

[Host]

Julie K. Brown, thank you for all of your tireless reporting, for bringing this story to light. For so many people and, and for so many victims having their voice and stories told. I really appreciate you being here with us. And when we come back, Congressional Democrats want answers on Epstein, too. That's very clear. And there has been more movement today on one big piece of the puzzle involving Donald Trump. Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley, who serves on the committee that is subpoenaing the Epstein files, joins House Democrats succeeded yesterday in getting Republicans to vote to subpoena the Epstein files from the Justice Department. And they are continuing to push for more, namely the infamous birthday book compiled for Jeffrey Epstein's birthday well before any criminal allegations surfaced. Now, the Wall Street Journal reported just last week that the book contains a drawing by Donald Trump. Trump not only denied that he decided to sue the Wall Street Journal over it, but once again, it feels like he's on very, very shaky ground because last night an attorney for some of Epstein's victims told my colleague Lawrence o' Donnell where that book is.

[Todd Blanche]

I know that the executors of this date are in possession of that book. They would comply with the subpoena immediately. That it's something that we could solve this problem so quickly if people actually want to solve problems.

[Host]

And just minutes later, Congressman Ro Khanna, who serves on the House Oversight Committee, said he'd love to move forward with that suggestion. I'm actually going to invite Bradley Edwards.

[Todd Blanche]

To meet with the House Oversight Committee, and I think we can easily move.

[Host]

Forward on this subpoena of that birthday book and which could really advance this case. And just this evening, there's new reporting from the Wall Street Journal saying that former President Bill Clinton was among five dozen people, including Donald Trump, Wall street billionaire Leon Black, fashion designer Vera Wang, and media owner Mort Zuckerman, who ended up with letters in the 2003 book. And crucially for investigators in Congress that several digital copies of the album have been creative, always. New developments. Joining me now is Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley, a Democrat from Massachusetts. She's also a member of the House Oversight Committee. There's so many things I want to ask you about. Let me just ask you about some of these developments. The birthday book. What is the latest on the trying to get access to that birthday book from the committee?

[Ayanna Pressley]

Well, you know, in real time, we're having to move with a nimble strategy to follow up any new leads as they emerge. I mean, the fact of the matter is, Jen, is that for decades there has been a dereliction of duty here in getting accountability, truth, transparency and justice for these survivors. These powerful abusers have been protected by institutions that are more concerned with protecting predators than centering survivors. And that's what I want to really focus on here because I think, I fear that we've lost the plot, that people have gotten so caught up in what they perceive to be the political gamesmanship in sport of this that they are losing sight of the survivors. I do want to take a moment just to thank Maria Farmer for her courage and her bravery. And I am. It is infuriating that for this many decades she has been failed by so many because of these ongoing efforts to obstruct the truth and also because people were so derelict and it seems there was a conspiratorial sort of active cover up here to obstruct and to protect a powerful people. There were even more victims. So it is really essential that we have the full Epstein files released. I joined ranking member Garcia, Congresswoman A. Summer Lee Ranker for our subcommittee in a decisive vote to a motion for the subpoena for the Epstein files full redacting the victims names. Today, ranking member Garcia sent a letter to chairman Comerc saying without delay, transmit this subpoena to the Department of Justice. And then, you know the role. We're doing our job in oversight. You know, this is our obligation, but it is the Department of Justice's responsibility to ensure full compliance. And we're giving them 30 calendar days to do that.

[Host]

It certainly is. And I want to. You mentioned Maria Farmer and for people who are just tuning in later in the show, she is a survivor and one of the of the first people who came forward almost 30 years ago. And we had her on earlier in the show to talk to her about her story for exactly the reason you mentioned, which is that there is not enough light that is being shined almost 30 years. The survivors and the people who are so courageously speaking out. Let me ask you, because you are a survivor yourself and you have been speaking out and you've been involved in speaking out for survivors. You've definitely. This is a line. People are not all walking perfectly, even people who are well intentioned. What do you want people to understand about what people who have survived, who have been victimized, whether through this or any other scenario, as they're reading these newspaper articles, how they're consuming it and how it's impacting them.

[Ayanna Pressley]

First. I think it's important to contextualize that this smart, effective strategy by Ranking Member Garcia and Congresswoman Summerlee yesterday was happening within the context of a subcommittee hearing on the trafficking of children. And so this hearing was chosen specifically to call out the hypocrisy of Republicans in shielding abusers instead of protecting and centering survivors. I've been doing the advocacy for survivor's justice for all my life. I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and sexual violence. And it is a life sentence. I think about what I experienced every single day. And I knew that's true for every survivor. When you are violated, when you are groomed, when you are exploited, when you are preyed upon, when you are violated as a child, it changes you at your core on a cellular level. It is a life sentence. And so for those cynics or political watchers who see this as political gamesmanship or sports, it is certainly not that for me or those who would say that this is a distraction and don't we have better things that we could be working on? No. This healing, transparency, accountability for these survivors is important and they deserve it. And it is long overdue.

[Host]

Ayanna Pressley, thank you for being here. Thank you. I know Maria Farmer is also happy to come forward and tell her story.

[Ayanna Pressley]

Oh, we're already in touch.

[Host]

All right. You're already in touch. There you go. It just happened on the show. Thank you for being here with us and for sharing your story, too. All right, coming up, Donald Trump tries to do an end run around federal judges. Anyone surprised? Will he succeed? More on that next. All right, stay with me here. An interim U.S. attorney can only serve in their job for 120 days unless federal judges in their district vote to accept extend their appointment. Well, Donald Trump appointed his personal attorney, Lena Haba, you know, the one, to be the interim U.S. attorney for New Jersey just about 120 days ago. And then earlier this week, the federal judges in her district voted to boot her from the job. They even appointed her replacement, who was planning to start work on Saturday. But tonight, Alina Habba announced that she is now the Acting U.S. attorney for New Jersey, and that means she can serve through next March. The Trump administration seems to have found a loophole. Now, the last time A TRUMP Interim U.S. attorney got voted out of his job by the judges in his district, which happened earlier this month, the Justice Department found a way around it by naming him his own assistant, which is bizarre. Which automatically translated into him being the Acting U.S. attorney. Yes, bonus points for creativity. And now they're playing out of the same playbook. I guess for Alina Haba, it's going to work. Can anybody even try to challenge her? We don't know yet, but we're going to keep an eye on it and we'll be right back. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa. And if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in season three. And if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office, or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx? Nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off Camera with Kelly Ripa now. Wherever you get your podcasts.