Exclusive: Don Lemon's attorney, Abbe Lowell, one-on-one with Jen Psaki

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode: Exclusive: Don Lemon's attorney, Abbe Lowell, one-on-one with Jen Psaki

Date: January 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode addresses an unprecedented assault on press freedom in America: the arrest of independent journalist Georgia Fort and former CNN anchor Don Lemon after their coverage of an ICE protest. Jen Psaki sits down for an exclusive, in-depth interview with Don Lemon's attorney, Abbe Lowell, about the legal and constitutional stakes, the tactics being used by the Trump administration, and what this moment means for American democracy. The episode also covers the massive release of new Epstein files, political fallout, and features voices from newsmakers, survivors, and veteran journalists.

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Key Segments and Discussion Points

1. Setting the Scene: A Turbulent News Week

[01:09] Jen Psaki

• Expectation vs. Reality: Many major news stories seemed likely to dominate—Trump suing the IRS, FBI drama in Georgia, a new impeachment inquiry into former DHS Secretary Kristi Noem, and a massive release of Jeffrey Epstein files.
• Widespread Protests: Across the country, people participated in a “general strike” boycotting work and school to protest ICE policies.
  • “Going to today, people already had so many reasons to protest…so I knew that was going to be a huge part of today’s news.” [05:39]

Notable Moment:

• Massive nationwide demonstrations—even in places like Cleveland with freezing temperatures (“13 degrees, and still this was the size of the crowd.” [05:39])

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2. Arrest of Don Lemon & Georgia Fort: Details and Outrage

[06:00–11:09] Jen Psaki

• Don Lemon and Georgia Fort were arrested by federal agents for covering an ICE protest at a Minnesota church involving an ICE official who was also a pastor.
• Attorney General Pam Bondi personally took credit for ordering the arrests.
• Indictment treats journalists as “agitators,” citing a “coordinated takeover” and “acts of oppression, intimidation… physical obstruction.”
• Footage shows Federal agents executing heavily armed warrants at journalists’ homes (“This seems a little aggressive to just serve a warrant watching. I would say that is more than a little aggressive myself. She has kids in the house.” [09:44])
• Initial charges rejected by two lower courts for lack of evidence; DOJ went to a grand jury to secure indictments.

Don Lemon’s Own Words (Post-Release):

“Last night, the DOJ sent a team of federal agents to arrest me in the middle of the night for something that I’ve been doing for the last 30 years, and that is covering the news. The First Amendment…protects that work for me and for countless other journalists who do what I do. I stand with all of them, and I will not be silenced.”
– Don Lemon [10:40]

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3. Exclusive Interview: Abbe Lowell, Don Lemon’s Attorney

[11:09–23:06] Jen Psaki & Abbe Lowell

Immediate Context and Impact

• Lowell: Lemon’s 30-year career of journalism is protected by the First Amendment, not just by an employment contract.

  “It’s protected by the First Amendment … what he’s done for 30 years is his job… And his job is to report on what it is that you saw he was doing in Minnesota.” [11:36]

• DOJ and White House immediately began public (social media) characterizations before formal procedures; Lowell reached out to DOJ, but still has not received a response.
• The arrest was designed to be intimidating:

  “They wanted it to be terrifying, they wanted it to be intimidating. They wanted it to create fear…” [12:50]

  • Lemon was trailed to Los Angeles, arrested at 11:30pm in a hotel lobby, and made to spend a night in jail—despite being represented by counsel and posing no threat.
  • Agents were excessive in number and force:
    “Not one, not two, not three, but the bevy of agents surround and take him away… Don thought he was being mugged…” [13:34]

The Broader Threat to Democracy

• Lowell draws historical parallels to authoritarian tactics:

  “These are two basic rights. For example, the First Amendment, when they attack the lawyers, it’s the Sixth Amendment. This is an administration that’s not just willing to trample on the Bill of Rights. They’re eager to do it. It’s a warning sign.” [14:25]

• Argues that these events represent a systemic assault on constitutional freedoms reminiscent of pre-WWII Italy or authoritarian Tehran.

Legal Tactics Used by DOJ

• DOJ misapplies the FACE Act—historically used to protect access to abortion clinics—now as a tool against journalists.

  “This act is not supposed to be used to arrest journalists for doing their job…what you’re not supposed to do is not distinguish between people who are covering it versus not.” [16:09]

• Dangers of criminalizing ordinary reporting and failure to differentiate between protest and press.

Why Don Lemon Targeted?

• Lack of institutional backing as an independent journalist; history of being a Trump critic and prominent Black voice.

  “I think it was partially because his lack of goodwill in this administration…It could have been something that Don said during that protest. It was a convenient thing for them to do to send their message: journalists of the United States…” [17:48]

Pattern of Authoritarian Abuse

• Through-line: Those who oppose Trump (journalists, lawyers, officials) are systematically targeted.
  • “If you have done anything in your career which has put you on the wrong side of Donald Trump’s decision that you are a political enemy, you are on that thread.” [19:06]
  • Coordinated moves: attack on the press, lawyers, and independent institutions.

Precedent and Red Line

• Lowell: “It has definitely crossed a line… I don’t think you’ve ever seen a time where all of this happens at the same time…in Minnesota, we now have had journalists charged with a crime for doing their job. We had two peaceful protesters killed…It is unprecedented.” [20:57]
• Silver lining: Some judicial resistance—magistrates and juries have pushed back.
• Next steps: Lemon will continue his journalism, they will challenge the indictment on its First Amendment violation, and hope the courts repair “what this administration tries to tear down.” [22:05]

Notable Quote (Satirical):

“One of the phrases…in the indictment is that in the church, he peppered the minister with questions. Hey, Jen, I have something to tell you. I think every night you pepper your guests with questions. That’s kind of what journalists do.” [22:05]

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4. Massive Release of Epstein Files: Political and Victim Response

[23:09 onwards] Jen Psaki

Summary of New Revelations

• DOJ released ~3 million pages of Epstein files (about half of what it possesses).
  • Documents include unredacted survivor names—putting victims at risk—while many details on Trump and “co-conspirators” are missing or redacted.
  • Notable inclusions: deleted/re-added spreadsheets of Trump-related allegations, newly exposed connections (Elon Musk, Howard Lutnick), persistent cover-ups.
  • White House and DOJ accused of “making up laws themselves that don’t exist,” ignoring Congressional subpoenas.
• Congressman Robert Garcia (House Oversight) vows continued investigation and accountability, emphasizing that “the case is certainly not closed.”

  “They’re putting these women in danger. The carelessness, the lawlessness. Pam Bondi needs to be held in contempt. Republicans refuse to do so. And Donald Trump needs to understand that our work…is ongoing and we’re just getting started.” [28:42]

• Key question: Why is Trump so intent on hiding the files?

Survivor Statement: Annie Farmer

[33:58–38:08]

• Outrage over continued exposure of survivors’ identities, lack of accountability for abusers and enablers.

  “Once again survivors are having their names and identifying information exposed, while the men who abused them remain hidden and protected. This is outrageous.” [34:55]

• Farmer demands direct, transparent answers from Attorney General Bondi and action for justice.

  “I would ask her…what happened to me, why was more not done? Why is there no evidence in these files…of further investigation?” [35:50]

• Emotional plea for proper investigation and prosecution.

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5. The Journalism Crisis: Panel with Eugene Daniels and Terry Moran

[39:55–45:26]

Journalists’ Reaction to the Arrests

• Terry Moran: Not surprised by the arrests—this move seemed to be coming after previous failed prosecutions.

  “They’re trying to criminalize ordinary reporting.” [40:35]

• Eugene Daniels: Highlights the chilling use of language (accusations of intimidation) against two Black journalists, echoing long-standing racial stereotypes.

  “It is not lost on me that the language they’re using in there, talking about two black journalists, is very specific…That is something that black people have heard our whole lives.” [41:15]

• Both stress: the point is to send a warning to all journalists—especially the most vulnerable and independent voices—hoping to create a “chill” in press freedom.

On Independence and Persistence

• Being an independent journalist brings greater risk, as they lack large organizations’ institutional protections.
• Don Lemon’s “persistence” in reporting is not a crime—it’s the core function of journalism.

  “He tried to get answers. And right there, the gentleman is answering him back, that’s called American flag freedom…that’s not criminal activity.” [43:50]

• Daniels:

  “What they should take stock in is that…both Georgia and Don don’t seem deterred. People in this country are not scared to stand up for the Constitution.” [44:41]

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6. Final Thoughts and Visuals

[45:34 onwards]

• Massive protest images continue to flood in across the country.

  “The Trump administration does not want you to see them, but we think it’s very important that you see them.” [45:34]

• Closing thoughts stress that while this has been a dramatic and dark week for American democracy and press freedom, resistance continues both in the courts and in the streets.

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• “Last night, the DOJ sent a team of federal agents to arrest me in the middle of the night for something that I’ve been doing for the last 30 years, and that is covering the news.” — Don Lemon, [10:40]
• “They’re eager to [trample the Bill of Rights]. It’s a warning sign…we’re in a lot more trouble than the average person believes.” — Abbe Lowell, [14:25]
• “This act is not supposed to be used to arrest journalists for doing their job…” — Abbe Lowell, [16:09]
• “These are not random, unconnected events. It is an assault on everything we are dear.” — Abbe Lowell, [18:44]
• “They’re putting these women in danger. The carelessness, the lawlessness.” — Rep. Robert Garcia, [28:42]
• “Once again Survivors are having their names and identifying information exposed, while the men who abused them remain hidden and protected. This is outrageous.” — Annie Farmer, [34:55]
• “They’re trying to criminalize ordinary reporting.” — Terry Moran, [40:35]
• “It is not lost on me that the language…two black journalists…is very specific. That is something black people have heard our whole lives.” — Eugene Daniels, [41:15]

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Overall Tone

Serious, urgent, sometimes incredulous, and explicitly outraged at abuses of authority and constitutional violations. Psaki, her guests, and the episode as a whole reflect real anxiety about the state of American democracy, the safety of journalists, and the persistent struggle for truth and justice in the face of state power.

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Transcript

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[Abby Lowell]

That is all in for this very, very, very busy week. The briefing with Jen Psaki starts right now.

[Announcer]

Good evening, Jen.

[Host/Interviewer]

Chris, I guess we've reached the point in this story where journalists are arrested in the middle of the night. That is the point in this story that we've reached. And I'm sitting here, I have Abby Lowell here sitting across from me at the table. He's Don Lemon's attorney. We're going to talk about that and not just what it means for Don, but what it really means for everybody out there. Because I think that's one of the big questions that I'm looking forward to digging into. But what a freaking week this has been. And a day.

[Announcer]

Yeah. And I'm looking forward to watching that interview because that, well, I'm not a lawyer, but let's just say I read the indictment. And strikes me as a little dubious. But I'm curious to hear what Don.

[Abby Lowell]

Lemon's lawyer has to say.

[Host/Interviewer]

I read it, too. 14 pages. It's available. Everybody can read it out there, but we're going to dig into that in just a moment, too.

[Announcer]

Awesome.

[Abby Lowell]

Thanks, Jen.

[Announcer]

Have a great weekend.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay. I don't know about you. I went to bed last night thinking that the story that would absolutely dominate the news today was Donald Trump suing the IRS and the U.S. treasury for $10 billion. I mean, that is, it is a huge freaking deal. The president of the United States suing a government agency that he himself controls, an agency that will be defended by government lawyers who ultimately are under his control. A president just blatantly abusing his power to enrich himself like that felt like it would be the biggest story of the day. I was reading up on it. I was all ready to talk about it, but, boy, was I wrong on that one. I mean, today, my colleagues, first of all, Carol Lennig and Kendall Lanenan, also broke another story that would be dominating news coverage on almost any day. Because it turns out the reason the special agent in charge of the FBI's Atlanta Field Office was forced out of his job earlier this month was because he expressed concerns about the FBI's plan to investigate the 2020 election results in Fulton County, Georgia. We also learned that news today. Now, that news comes just days after the FBI executed a search warrant at the Fulton county election center, seizing 700 boxes of materials, including ballots, related to the 2020 election. So the fact that the special agent in charge of the Atlanta field office balked at that investigation and the FBI fired him and then move forward with it anyway, that that should be the biggest news of the month. And I promise you, we're going to continue to follow these stories very, very closely in the days and weeks ahead. We are really tracking all of them. Now. One of the other things I thought would have been one of the biggest stories of the day was that today Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia was scheduled to announce an impeachment inquiry into Trump's DHS Secretary, Christy Noem. Calls for Noem's removal have grown so much that this week we even saw two Republican senators call for her resignation. And there are now more than 160 Democrats on the record calling for her removal. Given the political pressure there and the outrage from the American public about what ICE is doing in Minnesota and Maine and all across the country, I was pretty sure this morning, at least, that would be today's biggest news. But before Congressman Garcia could even get out to the podium this morning to announce that impeachment inquiry, the justice department released 3 million more pages of documents from the Epstein files, thousands of new videos and images, and a lot more mentions, I will say, of Donald Trump, including a summary assembled by the FBI last summer of more than a dozen tips the agency had received involving President Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. Now, Congressman Garcia is, of course, the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, leading their investigation into Jeffrey Epstein. We're going to dig into both the impeachment inquiry and into Kristi Noem and the Epstein files a little bit later today with Congressman, I should say later this evening soon with him in the Next hour, I'm also going to be joined by Epstein survivor Annie Farmer for her response to today's news. Now, another thing that I thought was a huge piece of news today, and it is, was that today, hundreds of organizations across the country called for today to be a day of boycott and protest, calling on people all across the country not to go to work, not to go to school, to not go out to shop and instead to protest against ice. And that did happen. And all across the country, we saw high school students walking out of their schools. We saw massive, massive protests in places you might expect like New York and Los Angeles. You can see some of those on your screen right now. And of course, just gigantic protests in Minneapolis itself. Look at that crowd.

[Announcer]

Look at.

[Host/Interviewer]

I mean, it's wild. But crowds of protesters like that were common all across the country today. Here was the size of the protest in San Francisco. Again, gigantic. This was the crowd in Madison, Wisconsin. You can see a sign there so bad even the introverts are here, which I think is pretty humorous. Good on that one. This was the scene at the State House in Columbia, South Carolina, today. You can see some of the signs there specifically mentioned the general strike. And here was the crowd in Cleveland, Ohio. The high there today was 13 degrees. 13 degrees. And still this was the size of the crowd. This was the scene in Sacramento, California. This was the scene in San Antonio, Texas. You get the picture. Going to today, people already had so many reasons to protest, so many reasons to be furious with ICE and with the Trump administration. So I knew that was going to be a huge part of today's news. What I didn't know was that the Trump administration was going to give Americans a whole new reason to be furious. What I didn't know was that the Trump administration was going to cross yet another bright red line because today the Justice Department arrested two journalists because they covered an ICE protest. They arrested independent journalist Georgia Fort and former CNN anchor turned independent journalist Don Lemon. And Attorney General Pam Bondi was even quick to brag on social media that they were arrested at her personal direction. The White House put out this photo of Don Lemon claiming he had been involved in riots. Now, the protest in question happened two Sundays ago, January 18, at a church in St. Paul, Minnesota. The demonstrators walked into the church chanting ice out, protesting one of the pastors at this church who was also a director at the local ICE field office. Lemon and Ford covered that protest as journalists. You can see Lemon here interviewing both the protesters and the parishioners inside the church about how they felt about what was taking place. That is supposed to be. It is protected by the First Amendment. That is supposed to be a freedom that the press has. That's one of the unique values of what we have going on in this country. But the indictment of Lemon and Fort today does not consider them press. Instead, the indictment labels them and the protesters all as one group of agitators. The indictment alleges that together, they, quote, entered the church in a coordinated takeover style attack and engaged in acts of oppression, intimidation, threats, interference, and physical obstruction. I'm just going to note I've been showing you video of what they did in that church. The indictment alleges that they, quote, conspired and agreed with one another to injure oppressed threats, threaten and intimidate multiple persons, including the clergy, staff and congregants. Now, going after protesters is one thing, but to arrest the journalists who were there reporting on the protest, that is another thing. In fact, when the Justice Department first tried to charge people involved in this last week, a federal magistrate judge refused to sign off on the charges against the journalists, citing insufficient evidence. The Justice Department then asked a higher court to force the lower court to. To sign the arrest warrants. And the higher court rejected the Justice Department's efforts as well. So the Justice Department, at Attorney General Pam Bondi's explicit personal direction, which she tweeted about, went to a grand jury and got their indictment that way. But the Justice Department didn't just indict these journalists and call them to ask them to turn themselves in. They sent federal agents to journalists homes to arrest them. You can see here the masked federal agents that arrested independent journalist Georgia Fort this morning in Minnesota. Fort filmed that incident herself. So you can, you can see what that was like. Well, this is really scary. There's kids in the house. You guys have not been really friendly in the community. And to me, this seems a little. Can I finish, sir? This seems. Can I finish?

[Georgia Fort]

Can I get your.

[Host/Interviewer]

Get your phone. This seems a little bit aggressive to have all these cars in our cul de sac. Two, three agents. And now I saw the one disappear to the back. So to me, this is a little aggressive to just serve a warrant watching. I would say that is more than a little aggressive myself. She has kids in the house. They're serving a war. Why does that need to happen? Why is that how it's being done? It's terrifying. Of course it is. Now, at his initial hearing court today in Los Angeles, the Justice Department tried to restrict Don Lemon's travel, claiming he was Quote, a danger to the community. The judge did not buy that, for good reason, and released Lemon without bail and without restrictions on his travel. Now, after that hearing, Lemon gave the public his side of the story.

[Announcer]

Last night, the DOJ sent a team of federal agents to arrest me in the middle of the night for something that I've been doing for the last 30 years, and that is covering the news. The First Amendment of the Constitution protects that work for me and for countless of other journalists who do what I do. I stand with all of them, and I will not be silenced. I look forward to my day in court. Thank you all.

[Host/Interviewer]

I will not be silenced. Joining me now for an exclusive interview is Abby Lowell. He's one of the most prominent defense attorneys in the country, and he is representing Don Lemon in his case against the Trump Justice Department. Abby, we just showed Don there. Of course, everybody's been able to see him. He also did a YouTube live. People may have watched, but this is terrifying. No matter who you are, how is Don doing? I think a lot of people at home are wondering that.

[Abby Lowell]

I think people should be. I mean, no matter how solid you are and how much you've covered the news, when others get this happening to them, when it happens to you, it's a different event. I mean, let's talk about what happened first to Don, and then I'd like to talk about what it means to everybody else. Okay, so what happened to Don was that for 30 years, he's done not just his job. It is his job. Like it's your job to be a journalist, but that's a job that is protected, by the way, by something other than a contract you have with your. With your network. It's protected by the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights. And so what he's done for 30 years is his job. And his job is to report on what it is that you saw he was doing in Minnesota. He is basically recording, sometimes video, sometimes by taking notes, what's going on around him. So that's what he did immediately. Attorney General Bondi, Assistant Attorney General of the Civil Rights Division, and who knows, in the White House, were already tweeting, this was a crime. We're going to go to get him. And so what does you do? You have to lawyer up. So he and I know each other. We got together, and what's the first thing I did? I wrote to the Department of Justice ten days ago, and I said, I'm representing Don Lemon. I understand you might be investigating him. If you're gonna take Any action, do it the right way. You don't have to make a show of it. You don't have to make a circus of this. Get in touch with me.

[Host/Interviewer]

And do you hear back from them?

[Abby Lowell]

I'm still waiting. So, all right, what else did they do? So not only did they basically attack as a crime something that you and others do that are protected by the First Amendment, they didn't do it just in the way you're supposed to. They wanted it to be terrifying, they wanted it to be intimidating. They wanted it to create fear. So he lives in New York, it's not Minneapolis. He's going to Los Angeles to do his job, which is to cover, in this case the Grammys this weekend. They wait until he's in Los Angeles. That's not enough. They wait until 11:30 at night, when he was coming back for doing what he does in the lobby of a hotel. And not one, not two, not three, but the bevy of agents surround and take him away. Don thought he was being mugged because he has been controversial and he actually thought some crazy people on the right might be stalking him.

[Host/Interviewer]

Can I pause just for a moment? Cuz I think it's so important for people to hear this. We just showed Georgia's video. How many agents surrounded him in.

[Abby Lowell]

I'm trying to count right now, but let's put it this way, it's more than the one that would have been necessary to do it the right way. And they're. And they're cloaked and they're protected and they're armed. This is to somebody who's not a threat, doesn't have a criminal record, he's not Maduro in Venezuela that you have to snap out. You basically have heard from his attorney and they don't care about any of that. So they take him away. And that's what happened. But they didn't just take him away. Remember, they didn't just stalk him in Los Angeles. They did it at 11:30 at night. So they knew that he'd have to spend a night in jail for no reason whatsoever. But they did that on purpose. So they trail him to Los Angeles, they wait until 11 and they make sure that he has to spend a night in jail, knowing that we wouldn't be able to get in front of a judge until the next day. That's what happened to Don for doing his job. Now let's talk about what it means for everybody else. What it means for everybody else is that we've seen today the next step towards what you would have thought if I described what happened. You were describing what happened in Pre World War II Italy with Mussolini. The first thing the Trump administration did was they attacked lawyers, then they attacked the journalists. And those are the two playbook kinds of plays that authoritarian governments have done through history in order to stifle dissent. And if that weren't enough, then they brought the people that are supposed to be policing and they literally killed two peaceful protesters. If I described that to you, basically, neutering lawyers, arresting journalists, and shooting protesters, you think I'd be talking about Tehran. You think I'd be talking about Italy in the 1930s or 40s? We're talking about the United States of America. So what does it mean to everybody? These are two basic rights. For example, the First Amendment, when they attack the lawyers, it's the Sixth Amendment. This is administration that's not just willing to trample on the Bill of Rights. They're eager to do it. It's a warning sign. And if we can't rely on those Bill of Rights to protect you and Don and others who give us the news or lawyers who come up and defend you when you do that, then we're in a lot more trouble than the average person believes.

[Host/Interviewer]

Let me ask you about one of the legal tactics they seem to be using, because it seems like what I'm hearing from you is this is something they're trying out. We should just expect them to do it more, and I absolutely think we should. They seem to be. They reference what's called the Face act in this indictment here, which, again, is 14 pages. I'm not a lawyer, but anybody can be out there and read. Has until recently been used to protect people's access to abortion clinics. It feels like it's a new tactic. I don't know that there's a precedent, you tell me. But what do you make of them using that?

[Abby Lowell]

Well, I mean, okay, what do we make of the fact that they basically use the Department of Justice, not to use the word justice in its title, but to go after the enemies of Donald Trump, whether it be Attorney General Tish James, whether it be Jim Comey, whether it be now going after the ballots in Atlanta, in Fulton County, Georgia? This act is not supposed to be used to arrest journalists for doing their job. When journalists, by the way, would be filming a civil rights march, or when journalists are filming what's going on at a church, or even if journalists were basically filming or reporting on what was going on at an abortion clinic, you can decide whether people protesting at those three sites should or should not happen, whether it's part of our precious right to dissent in America. But what you're not supposed to do is not distinguish between people who are covering it versus not. Let me put it this way. Do you remember the television clips that we saw in the 1960s about what was happening in the south during the civil rights movement? One of the things that turned our country around was to be able to see it on their television screens at night when, you know, people were being sprayed with hoses and dogs were being sicked on them in places like Alabama. If those journalists had been subject to what happened today, you might not have ever seen those videos. And how much worse would we have been?

[Host/Interviewer]

We wouldn't have. And if people are deterred now, we won't see a lot of the videos we see. Don is, as you well know, and I've known him a long time, too. He is been a target of Trump for a long time. He is an independent journalist, so he's not working for a big major news organization. He's also a prominent black journalist. There are a lot of reasons. I guess they could have decided Don was their target. Why do you think they decided?

[Abby Lowell]

I think it was partially because his lack of goodwill in this administration. And we know President Trump has a lot of traits, one of which is that he does go after the last shiny object that's put in front of him. And it could have been something that Don said during that protest. It was a convenient thing for them to do to send their message. Journalists of the United States, what did they do four or five days before that? They executed a search warrant on a Washington Post reporter to get evidence, which would have been unheard of even if she herself was not, quote, the target of their investigation. There used to be rules to protect journalists who gathered news from being forced to give up their sources. This is not a mistake. This is not an outlier, and it's not ad hoc. The first thing you do is you basically shut down the press, you shut down lawyers, you shut down universities. I am asking people to understand that these are not random, unconnected events. It is an assault on everything we are dear.

[Host/Interviewer]

In America, you have a number of clients who are under assault and being targeted by the Trump administration. It's obviously Don Lemon. It's New York Attorney General Letitia James, Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook. You've talked about the through line of kind of the rise of authoritarianism. What do you see as the through line between all of these people that they are targeting prominent voices who are speaking Out.

[Abby Lowell]

So there is a few through this, maybe not one, but it's close to one through line. But it has, like, three threads. So we'll have a line with three threads. One is, if you have done anything in your career which has put you on the wrong side of Donald Trump's decision that you are a political enemy, you are on that thread. If you are somebody that stands in the way of his aggrandizement of power, like an independent Federal Reserve Board, you are on that thread. If you are somebody who they. Who he and his people think can send a message or be distracting. I mean, as you said in your intro today, what else happened today? There was a release of another tranche of Epstein material. Why is it that it's not a coincidence that. That when something like that happens, you're going to see a Don Lemon being investigated or being arrested? Because look at my left hand and you won't pay attention to the right. Those are the threads.

[Host/Interviewer]

Do you think that I was thinking about that, too? Because even though we didn't know that was going to happen until today, they knew it was going to happen last night. Do you think there's a connection there?

[Abby Lowell]

I don't exactly know that it's an equation. I think that people that sit in the room, the people like Stephen Miller and others who plot what happens in this administration, understand how you can move the gears to create a political atmosphere that you think will do you some good. But I think it's a number of things. Look, going after the press is definitely part of their agenda. Going after enemies has been part of the president's agenda for as long as he has been in public or private, by the way. Right. So there are things that hold these things together, but there are things that bind them together. And all those together to come to a point where somebody can attack the independents of the Federal Reserve Board, somebody can go after a prosecutor who went after Trump, and somebody can go after a journalist who. Who did nothing more than cover the news like he did for 30 years.

[Host/Interviewer]

You've been at this a very long time. You're a pretty unflappable person. Do you feel that these arrests have kind of crossed. I don't know if we need to call it a red line, but crossed a line that we haven't seen before in this country?

[Abby Lowell]

It has definitely crossed a line. It's been occasions in our country where bad things happen. I pointed out to the civil rights movement of the 1960s, where you can see individual police officers in a place in the South Doing something to repress the rights of others. Okay? That's happened in our unfortunate history. I don't think you've ever seen a time where all of this happens at the same time, where look what happened in just one place called Minnesota. In Minnesota, we now have had journalists, independent journalists, and Don Lemon as well, be charged with a crime for doing their job. We had two peaceful protesters killed. I mean, those are the kinds of things together that if you look at it from even close or far distance, it is unprecedented. But the good news is that there are things like a magistrate who at least tried to stand in the way of Don being charged. There are things like grand juries refusing to re indict or try to indict Letitia James. There are juries that are rejecting the idea that cases go to trial. So it's not without hope. But, boy, the warning sign is there that every fabric that is protecting us in the Bill of Rights is under attack.

[Host/Interviewer]

Before I let you go, we obviously have seen Don out there today. What happens next here?

[Abby Lowell]

Well, I mean, he goes back to doing his job, which is really important because he won't back down. He has said it, and everybody knows Don knows he won't, so he'll do that. We have an appearance to go in Minnesota, as do the others that got arrested. And that is, as you said, everybody should pick up that 14 page indictment and look at each of what they are accused of. But in Dodd's case, when you do that, you'll go, hmm. One of the phrases, I think, if I remember in the indictment is that in the church, he peppered the minister with questions. Hey, Jen, I have something to tell you. I think every night you pepper your guests with questions. That's kind of what journalists do. So we will attack this indictment based on its infringement of the First Amendment, putting aside the lack of evidence anyway, and hopefully the judicial system will start repairing what this administration tries to tear down.

[Host/Interviewer]

We're going to talk to a couple of journalists who have been in exactly these circumstances about some of the accusations here that are very much doing journalism a little bit later in the show. So, Abby Lowell, I know you have not gotten a lot of sleep. Thank you for being here.

[Abby Lowell]

Pleasure to be here. And I'm glad that people are paying attention to this now.

[Host/Interviewer]

I think they are. And anybody, again, can read this indictment. It's publicly available out there. Thank you. Okay. Millions. I referenced this already earlier, but millions of pages of Epstein files were released today. Lots of names you will recognize are in them. I'm going to tell you who they are, and I'm going to tell you why. My next guest says his investigation has only begun. Congressman Robert Garcia is the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, and he joins us next.

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[Host/Interviewer]

Today, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche just unilaterally declared that the Justice Department had completed its review of the Epstein files. Case closed and he was very clear about whose identity would and would not be protected in that release.

[Announcer]

The categories of documents withheld include those permitted under the act to be withheld, files that contain personally identify information of victims or victims personal and medical files and similar files, the disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy. We did not protect President Trump. We didn't protect or not protect anybody.

[Host/Interviewer]

So did they accomplish those goals? Todd Blanche stated, not exactly. I mean, Nemes Now's initial review of these documents found that the names and identifying information of more than a dozen survivors appear unredacted. And as for Donald Trump, while the initial release of documents did contain a spreadsheet containing multiple allegations of impropriety made against Trump, most of which appeared to be unsubstantiated tips at this point. But then that spreadsheet of Trump allegations suddenly just disappeared from the release, only to reappear about an hour later after many people pointed out publicly that it was gone. Now, several members of Trump's inner circle also appear in these emails, like an email exchange between Epstein and Elon Musk that appears to be about travel plans, in which Musk asks Epstein what day, night will be the wildest party on your island. There's also a 2012 exchange between Trump Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick, where Lutnick appears to make plans to visit Epstein's island with his wife and children, seven years after Lutnick claims he, quote, vowed never to be in a room with that disgusting person again. So there is that. And we do not know the broader context of either of those emails either. And we don't know if there's knowing it would make it less creepy. But there is still a lot that the Trump administration is keeping back. The roughly 3 million documents released today are only about half of what the Justice Department has in its possession. So a lot more we don't have. Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia, the ranking member on the House Oversight Committee. So, Congressman, we got 3 million documents today. It's a lot. I'm sure you're still going through it. We're still going through it, but still only half of what they have. I know you're very used to this administration violating this particular law, but have you and Chairman Comer, have you talked about what you can do next here?

[Announcer]

Look, I haven't talked to him today, but we certainly will be communicating in the next few days. Let's be really clear about what actually was released. They made it pretty clear, the DOJ that they've, they're done releasing files. It's only about 50% of what they have in their possession. So half of the files in their possession they are choosing to not release. This continues to be a major White House cover up. And they went on today, Mr. Blanche went on to talk about what they wouldn't release, things that they basically are creating themselves. They're creating laws themselves that don't exist, by the way, in the subpoena that was passed during the summer for the files, talking about the removal of conversations between government officials or agencies, talking about removing information if there's ongoing government investigations. That may be the case in the law that was passed by Congress, but not the case in the subpoena. So all those files legally have to be released. And I want people to understand that they included multiple names of survivors in the release today. They're putting these women in danger. The carelessness, the lawlessness. Pam Bonding needs to be held in contempt. Republicans refuse to do so. And Donald Trump needs to understand that. Our work in our investigation is ongoing and we're just getting started.

[Host/Interviewer]

There is, I think it's so good for people to hear that out there because just Todd Blanche declaring the case closed here. The case is certainly not closed. Our team has been going through these documents. I mentioned some of the things in them. What stuck out to you about the set that was released today and what was in there?

[Announcer]

Look, there's, I mean first, I think the idea and the clear, I think, deception that we're seeing to somehow include and remove mentions of the president of Donald Trump, regardless whether they were allegations or not. That is highly irregular and suspicious. We also know that Trump's name appears hundreds of times in these files. And we have gone through a small batch of, of what is right now millions of additional documents that we have received. But one, a couple that stood out. Look, Trump's Commerce Secretary, the fact that Lutnick said clearly they didn't communicate. He stopped communicating with Epstein after 2005 and lied multiple times where now that actually we know that was not true. Why is it that everyone in Donald Trump's circle continues to lie about their relationship with, with Jeffrey Epstein? That mentioned, of course, of Elon Musk, Stephen Bannon clearly was a lot more, a lot closer to Jeffrey Epstein than many folks understood. But what's also important is we haven't found so far it is not acceptable for us to not get the names of Epstein's co conspirators and the men that raped and abused children and girls. If the Department of Justice thinks we are going to be satisfied with them leaking the names of survivors, with them putting survivors in harm's way, protecting the president and not giving us the names of the men that abused the women, that's the fight for justice that we are in. And we're not going to stop until we expose those men and get justice for the survivors.

[Host/Interviewer]

I'm going to talk to Annie Farmer about that in a moment. Very quickly, before I let you go, I mentioned this spreadsheet that appeared, it appeared to be unsubstantiated claims. I mean, we don't, they're from a tip line, but there were some. It's not clear the FBI followed up on. Are you planning to look into your committee? I guess any of those claims that were in those documents that were released today related to Donald Trump?

[Announcer]

We are, We've, we've actually already started today. I mean that look, when we saw that document, of course, it was of high interest to us. The fact that it was removed immediately and then posted again, I think is also incredibly interesting. And I want to remind folks that we have to go back to the key question in this investigation is why has Donald Trump been so obsessed with hiding the Epstein files? Who is he protecting? Why is he protecting them? And why did Jeffrey Epstein say that Donald Trump was his best friend for over a decade? And why were people trafficked from Mar A Lago? Why does all of this center around New York and Palm Beach? These questions all need to be answered. And the arrows continue to point back to the White House. So we will get justice for the survivors.

[Host/Interviewer]

Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you. You're tireless. I always appreciate talking to you. Thank you again for being here. Okay. Late today, survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse released a statement expressing their outrage, outrage about how these files were released today. And Congressman Garcia just references to. Annie Farmer is one of those survivors. She has been tirelessly fighting for justice and she joins me next.

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[Host/Interviewer]

After the Justice Department released millions more pages of Epstein files. Today, survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse released a statement. And it reads in part, quote, once again Survivors are having their names and identifying information exposed, while the men who abused them remain hidden and protected. This is outrageous. The Justice Department cannot claim it has finished releasing files until every legally required document is released and every abuser and enabler is fully exposed. Survivors deserve answers, and the public deserves the truth. This is not over. Annie Farmer is one of those survivors. She's been fighting for justice and accountability for three decades, since her abuse was first reported to the FBI back in 1996. Annie, that was an incredibly powerful statement that I just read a few lines from. Let me just start by asking, is there anything you'd like to add in terms of your reaction to the release today and what we saw and what we frankly didn't see?

[Annie Farmer]

No, I think it sums it up well, especially the word outraged. You know, I think that's really how so many of us are feeling right now, is extremely angry that it's more of the same that we have been, I think, more than patient, waiting for the transparency that we fought so hard to receive. And again, there's information that we're not seeing, that we know should be there, and then information that very much shouldn't be released, like survivor names and identifying information that is once again being released.

[Host/Interviewer]

In your letter, you also state, we need to hear directly from Attorney General Pam Bondi when she appears before the House Judiciary Committee on February 11th. Tell me here and for everybody watching and listening out there, what do you want to hear from her during that hearing? There's so much lip service we've heard. What do you want to hear? And what do other survivors want to hear from her?

[Annie Farmer]

Yeah, I mean, I think I would be specific. I would ask her, you know, my sister, Maria Farmer, reported this in 1996. What, her own assault. What happened to me, why was more not done? Why is there no evidence in these files that we've seen so far of further investigation? And why are we still not able to even receive her full report? You know, that's one of the things that we have been looking very carefully for. A portion of her report came out, in particular about the photographs that were stolen. But she reported much more than that. She reported about abuse that had happened to me, about abuse that had happened to her, and that still has not even been released. You know, so I think that would be an important question, is just why can't we see these? These are really crucial details. Because what we know is that, you know, we have been ignored for decades. And, you know, I feel like a broken record, but it's so hard for me not to bring up every time so much pain could have been avoided if she had been listened to, if that report had been followed up in the appropriate and legal way. You know, and I know I've been in contact today with Virginia Roberts Giuffres family. And they are very much on my heart as I'm thinking about, you know, what Todd Blanche said today, that there's no evidence of any reason for further prosecution of other co conspirators or abusers. You know, I know that Virginia provided many, many names in her depositions. To insinuate that there's no evidence that anyone else harmed girls or young women is just, is egregious. And I think where's the evidence of the investigation? You know, like, shouldn't this file include the fact that these things were followed up on in some way? Maybe, you know, interviews with individuals that were named by victims? We're not seeing, we're not seeing that kind of investigative work.

[Host/Interviewer]

Do you think? I'm just, I'm so grateful for you being here and I'm very hopeful that you find justice at your. The story is really about you and all of the other survivors. It was one of the reasons I felt it was so important to talk to you tonight. Annie, I just want to thank you and thank you for being such a prominent voice out there.

[Annie Farmer]

Thank you so much for having us.

[Host/Interviewer]

Thank you. Okay, coming up, both journals arrested by the Trump administration today just spoke out powerfully after they were released. I'm going to show you what, what one of them said and talk about it with two people who have spent their entire careers holding power to account. Terry Moran lost his job at ABC News for standing up to Donald Trump. Eugene Daniels is MSNOW's chief Washington correspondent. They join me next.

[Announcer]

Foreign.

[Host/Interviewer]

If the Trump administration thought that journalists Don Lemon and Georgia Fort would back down after their arrest today, well, they were sorely mistaken. I should be protected under the First Amendment, just like all of the journalists who I've been advocating for, too. I've been advocating for mainstream media journalists who have been brutalized for months. Do we have a constitution? That is the pressing question that should be on the front of everyone's mind. Amplifying the truth. Documenting what is happening in our community is not a crime.

[Announcer]

The way to stand up to a bully, to a tyrant is not to bend the knee. It's not to acquiesce. It is to metaphorically punch them right in the nose.

[Host/Interviewer]

Metaphorically, to be clear. Joining me now is independent journalist and former senior national correspondent ABC News, Terri Moran, as well as chief Washington correspondent for the Ms. Now and co host of the Weekend, Eugene Daniels. I knew you have to wake up at like 4 in the morning, so thank you for being here. Terry, let me start with you. There's a lot to unpack here, but what was your initial reaction when you woke up this morning and saw news that these journalists had been arrested overnight?

[Georgia Fort]

I wasn't shocked. You could feel it coming in some ways because they had tried already, right? And two federal judges, a magistrate judge, and then the chief judge of that district both said there's no case against journalists here. They weren't committing any crimes. So they took it to a grand jury, apparently, and got the indictment. So I wasn't shocked, but I was dismayed. I was depressed. And when I read the indictment, I was even more depressed because they are trying to say that being a journalist that basically embedding with a team that's going to go do something, meaning you're participating in that, asking questions of somebody in a doorway is obstructing them and harming their First Amendment rights. They're trying to criminalize ordinary reporting.

[Host/Interviewer]

I want to get into some of the things in that indictment. I keep saying it's 14 pages, it's publicly available. Anyone out there can read it. You both have been. I mean, you've covered war zones, you've covered campaigns, you've probably asked thousands of people questions. Let me ask you, Eugene, I want to read from the indictment. Overt Act 23, as it's called. Lemon and Fort approached the pastor and largely surrounded him and physically obstructed his freedom of movement, while Lemon peppered him with questions to promote the operation's message. And I think we may have video of this we can show, too. What is your talk to everybody? You can see it right there on the screen. Just about what a journalist does in moments like this.

[Ad Voice]

Exactly that. Right? He is asking him questions, he's giving him answers. There's some pushback. If you people listen to the audio online, they're having a conversation about what's happening, and that is what's key here. And Terry's right, the idea that they are setting a precedent that when we are out there doing our jobs, talking to people standing near them, now that's obstructing. Now that's doing something else. I will also say it is not lost on me that the language they're using in there, talking about two black journalists, is very specific. Right? Being intimidating them. That is something that black people have heard our Whole lives. And we're very intimidating. And I think that should not be lost on folks.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's two black journalists who were put in jail overnight, and Donald Trump has gone after and targeted a number of prominent black voices. Tish James, Lisa Cook. I mean, what do you call out what you see there?

[Ad Voice]

Yeah, it's racism, right? I think clearly it's very simple, but it also is supposed to be a lesson to people, right? Because if people like Don Lemonade, if people like Tish James, the Attorney General of New York, can get in trouble with this administration, what does that mean for the other black and brown people in this country? And that's the real question, that when I talk to advocates, when I talk to activists now, when I talk to journalists as well, that's what they're worried about, is that simply being black and brown in the country is dangerous.

[Georgia Fort]

And being fellow journalists, right? They're gonna come after the most vulnerable, they think, in the public mind or some people's minds. And then the real reason is to send a chill right through everybody who does this work, whether independently, like me, whether with a network like you. They want you to think twice before you engage in journalism.

[Host/Interviewer]

The independent journalist aspect of this, I think, is an important one to call out too, because they've certainly gone after large media organizations, but these journalists don't have the same apparatus per se. I want to just show. And so I want to get to that, but I want to just talk about one other piece because we have another video to show people. This is another overt Act 28, shall we call it? Lemon posted himself at the main door of the church where he confronted some congregants and physically obstructed them. This is, I think, what you were referencing as they tried to exit the church building to challenge them with facts about U.S. immigration policy. And I again, want to just show on the video there, because Don Lemon live streamed this whole thing. That's what they're talking about. You can actually see an opening to the door there. But, Terry, again, you have been in so many environments of asking questions of people and getting information, help people understand watching what's happening here in this visual.

[Georgia Fort]

He's being persistent, okay? You have to be persistent if you wanna get answers. And in this situation, I should say, I didn't love the idea of going into a sanctuary for the protesters, but this is what he wanted to cover that day. And he's got a constitutional right to do it. And in doing that, he tried to get answers. And right there, the gentleman is Answering him back, that's called American flag freedom. What you're looking at right there, that's not criminal activity.

[Host/Interviewer]

You kind of referenced this a little bit, Eugene. There are a lot of journalists who are, you're very young, but here you are. But who are earlier in their careers than both of you are, who may be looking at this. And I think this is part of the point. And thinking, well, that seems scary. Or maybe I can't go to places and talk to protesters, or maybe I shouldn't go to places that are under the watchful eye of Trump. It is scary. What do you say to them?

[Ad Voice]

It is chilling, right? And it's supposed to be chilling. But what they should take stock in is that at the end of the day, both Georgia and Don talked today about the things that they saw and did. They don't seem deterred. And what that tells you is that people in this country are not scared to stand up for the Constitution. Right. We are not activists as journalists, but our job is to make sure that the American experiment continues to work. I will also say, when I was White House Correspondents association president, one of the things that I was shocked by at the very beginning of this was the acquiescing.

[Georgia Fort]

That's it.

[Ad Voice]

And that has continued. And so now what are institutions going to do as we move forward? What decisions are going to be made at larger news organizations and independent journalists as well?

[Host/Interviewer]

You two are a great pair. I hope you'll come back and talk to me about this. I wish this was the end, and I fear it is just the beginning. Thank you. Thank you both so much for being here.

[Announcer]

Thank you.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, we have to sneak in a very quick break, but the images of the absolutely massive protests, I talked about this at the beginning, all across the country are still coming in tonight. So we just wanted to show you some new ones. The Trump administration does not want you to see them, but we think it's very important that you see them. And we'll be right back. That's going to do it for me tonight. In what has been a hell of a news week. The Last Word starts right now with Allie Velshi in for Lawrence.

[Announcer]

Hey, Ali, I appreciate that you started your show with a bit of a.

[Host/Interviewer]

Rundown about how you thought about today.

[Abby Lowell]

And how it ended up being.

[Announcer]

Because it's not just been a hell of a week, it's been a hell of a news day. At any point today, you would have thought your show, same thing here, would have looked differently. So thank you for curating it as.

[Abby Lowell]

Well as you did and to your team.

[Host/Interviewer]

I'll look forward to seeing how you curate it. There's lots to pick from.

[Announcer]

I had your show to crib off.

[Host/Interviewer]

Of, so thank you.

[Abby Lowell]

Have a great weekend.

[Announcer]

We'll see you Monday.

[Host/Interviewer]

Thanks, Allie.

[Announcer]

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[Abby Lowell]

Sorry about your pet, but I just wire stuff.

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