Federal trade court blocks Trump's sweeping tariffs; says they exceed his authority

Summary

The Briefing with Jen Psaki: Federal Trade Court Blocks Trump's Sweeping Tariffs and Beyond

Release Date: May 29, 2025

Overview In this episode of The Briefing with Jen Psaki, host Jen Psaki delves into several pressing national issues, beginning with a landmark federal court decision that halts former President Donald Trump’s extensive tariff measures. The episode expands to cover government oversight challenges, corporate fraud prevention, FEMA’s disaster response inefficiencies, and the controversial social media strategies of Congresswoman Nancy Mace. Each segment features insightful interviews with key figures, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of these critical topics.

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1. Federal Trade Court Blocks Trump's Sweeping Tariffs

Court Ruling and Implications

The episode opens with breaking news that a three-judge panel from the United States Court of International Trade has unanimously blocked almost all of Donald Trump’s imposed tariffs. These tariffs targeted various countries, including Mexico, Canada, the EU, and China, and were justified by Trump under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA).

• Key Points:

  • The court deemed Trump's tariffs "essentially illegal," stating that the President does not possess the authority to impose "unlimited tariffs on goods from nearly every country in the world."
  • The ruling invalidates not only the new tariffs but also orders the vacating of tariffs previously collected.

• Notable Quote:

  "The court does not read the law to confer such unbounded authority and sets aside the challenged tariffs imposed thereunder." — United States Court of International Trade ([00:52])

Interview with Arizona Attorney General Chris Mays

Jen Psaki interviews Arizona Attorney General Chris Mays, a co-leader of the lawsuit against Trump's tariffs, to dissect the ruling's scope and future implications.

• Key Insights:

  • Attorney General Mays emphasizes the ruling as a significant victory for American consumers and small businesses, preventing potential devastation from the tariffs.
  • The Trump administration has filed a notice of appeal, signaling prolonged legal battles, potentially reaching the Supreme Court.

• Notable Quotes:

  "It's a huge day for American consumers, for small businesses all throughout this country who were on the precipice of being absolutely devastated and harmed by these tariffs." — Chris Mays ([03:49])

  "The President does not have unbounded authority to levy these tariffs." — Chris Mays ([07:33])

Legal and Political Ramifications

The discussion highlights concerns over the Trump administration’s respect for judicial authority, especially given Trump’s history of non-compliance with court orders.

• Key Points:
  • The court's decision challenges the executive overreach in trade policy.
  • If the administration fails to comply, it may lead to further legal actions, including motions to compel adherence to the court's rulings.

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2. Government Oversight and the Firing of Inspectors General

Elon Musk’s Departure and Government Watchdogs

Transitioning from trade issues, the episode covers Elon Musk’s announcement about ending his role as a special government employee, coupled with the controversial firing of government watchdogs by the Trump administration.

• Key Points:
  • Elon Musk criticized the Trump administration for promoting waste and fraud before stepping down.
  • Inspectors General (IGs): Trump fired 17 IGs across various federal agencies, undermining departments tasked with rooting out inefficiency and abuse.

Interview with Former Inspectors General Mark Greenblatt and Rob Storch

Jen Psaki engages with Mark Greenblatt (former Inspector General at the Department of the Interior) and Rob Storch (former Inspector General at the Department of Defense) to discuss the importance of IGs and the impact of their dismissal.

• Key Insights:

  • IGs must remain independent to effectively oversee and investigate government operations without political interference.
  • The integrity and qualifications of IG nominees are crucial for credible oversight.

• Notable Quotes:

  "An Inspector General can't be buddy, buddy with everyone. We know that we're sort of the skunk at the picnic." — Mark Greenblatt ([15:59])

  "The people at the PCAOB have very specialized knowledge, 20 years of experience, and they were set up intentionally by Congress as an independent body to provide independent oversight." — Cynthia Cooper ([27:07])

Concerns Highlighted:

• The appointment of IGs with partisan backgrounds compromises the effectiveness of oversight.
• Recent nominees have questionable ethics and qualifications, threatening the integrity of federal oversight.

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3. Corporate Fraud Oversight and the Public Company Accounting Oversight Board (PCAOB)

Reviving Lessons from Enron and WorldCom

Psaki revisits the infamous Enron and WorldCom scandals, underscoring the critical role of the PCAOB in preventing corporate fraud through stringent audit standards.

Interview with Whistleblowers Sharon Watkins and Cynthia Cooper

Sharon Watkins (former Enron vice president and whistleblower) and Cynthia Cooper (former WorldCom vice president and whistleblower) join the discussion to advocate against proposed cuts to the PCAOB.

• Key Insights:

  • The PCAOB ensures high audit quality and prevents conflicts of interest within auditing firms.
  • Republican proposals to eliminate or weaken the PCAOB could pave the way for future corporate scandals by removing essential safeguards.

• Notable Quotes:

  "It’s absolutely essential that we be nonpartisan and not even have a hint of partisanship in our work." — Rob Storch ([19:53])

  "Once it's eliminated, it's hard to put it back together. And we wanted to mark a point in time to say, watch out, here comes the next scandal." — Sharon Watkins ([28:30])

Legislative Concerns:

• Proposals to fold the PCAOB into the SEC could compromise its independence and effectiveness.
• Eliminating the PCAOB would remove a critical check against audit firms’ potential conflicts of interest.

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4. FEMA’s Inefficient Disaster Declaration Processes

Delayed Responses to Natural Disasters

The episode examines FEMA’s sluggish response to disaster declaration requests under the Trump administration, contrasting it with the more efficient handling under the previous Biden administration.

Interview with Former FEMA Administrator Dan Criswell

Dan Criswell shares his experiences and concerns regarding FEMA’s current operational inefficiencies.

• Key Insights:

  • Recent disaster declarations have lacked essential components like hazard mitigation, hindering long-term community resilience.
  • Delays in approvals extend the ambiguity for affected communities, impeding timely recovery and rebuilding efforts.

• Notable Quotes:

  "Our most precious commodity that we have is time... time that a community is living in ambiguity about whether or not they're going to [receive aid]." — Dan Criswell ([40:20])

  "Being able to help those states with this critical piece of recovery... is the first step and the most important step to get that whole process started." — Dan Criswell ([41:34])

Case Studies:

• North Carolina: Despite extensive destruction from Hurricane Helene, FEMA denied full reimbursement for debris cleanup, delaying recovery efforts.
• Missouri: Repeated delays in disaster declarations left communities vulnerable, prompting Senator Josh Hawley to intervene directly.

Operational Challenges:

• Loss of institutional knowledge and clear directives within FEMA hampers effective disaster response.
• Approaching hurricane season with weakened FEMA capabilities raises concerns about the agency’s preparedness.

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5. Congresswoman Nancy Mace’s Controversial Social Media Strategies

Manipulating Public Perception Through Burner Accounts

The final segment scrutinizes Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace’s aggressive social media tactics, including the use of burner accounts to manage her public image.

Analysis of Mace’s Strategies:

• Publicity Pursuit: Mace has actively sought frequent media appearances, aiming for extensive national and local TV exposure.

• Staff Activities: Former staffers report being instructed to create multiple social media accounts to fabricate support and monitor public opinion, diverting time from constituent services.

• Notable Quote:

  "We were congressional staff and there were actual things we could be doing to help the constituents." — Anonymous Former Staffer ([44:00])

Implications:

• Such manipulative practices undermine genuine public engagement and trust in elected officials.
• The reported misuse of taxpayer-funded resources for personal image management raises ethical concerns.

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Conclusion

In this multifaceted episode, Jen Psaki addresses significant legislative and administrative challenges facing the United States. From halting potentially harmful tariffs and safeguarding government oversight roles to reinforcing mechanisms against corporate fraud and improving disaster response, the discussions underscore the delicate balance between executive action and judicial oversight. Additionally, the examination of political tactics in the digital age highlights ongoing concerns about transparency and integrity in governance. Listeners are left with a comprehensive understanding of the current political landscape and its implications for the future.

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Notable Timestamps and Quotes:

• Court Ruling Overview: [00:52] – "The court does not read the law to confer such unbounded authority and sets aside the challenged tariffs imposed thereunder."
• Chris Mays on Tariffs: [03:49] – "It's a huge day for American consumers..."
• Mark Greenblatt on IG Independence: [15:59] – "An Inspector General can't be buddy, buddy with everyone."
• Sharon Watkins on PCAOB: [28:30] – "Once it's eliminated, it's hard to put it back together."
• Dan Criswell on FEMA Delays: [40:20] – "Our most precious commodity that we have is time..."
• Former Staffer on Mace’s Tactics: [44:00] – "There were actual things we could be doing to help the constituents."

---

Disclaimer: This summary is based on a provided transcript and aims to encapsulate all key discussions and insights presented in the podcast episode.

Transcript

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[News Anchor]

We'Re following some very big breaking news tonight, news that will come as a big blow to Donald Trump and his agenda tonight. A three judge panel in New York has effectively balked all, almost all of Trump's disastrous tariffs. Trump's tariffs against Mexico and Canada, his tariffs against the EU against China, his tariffs against uninhabited islands with nothing but penguins and snow, they are all blocked by this federal court decision. It comes out of the United States Court of International Trade, which is a specialized court you may or may not have ever heard of, but it deals specifically with trade issues. A three judge panel consisting of one Reagan appointee, one Obama appointee, and crucially and importantly, one Trump appointee, ruled unanimously that Trump's trade war is essentially illegal, that he does not have the authority to enact these sweeping tariffs on his own. When Trump signed the executive order enacting these tariffs, he cited something called the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, a law that gives the President the authority to use tariffs in times of national emergency. And in their ruling tonight, the judges write, quote, the question is whether the International Emergency Economic Powers act delegates these powers to the President in the form of authority to impose unlimited tariffs on goods from nearly every country in the world. The court does not read the law to confer such unbounded authority and sets aside the challenged tariffs imposed thereunder. The law does not grant tariff authority to the President simply when he finds or determines that an unusual and extraordinary threat exists. I sense a little snark there. I appreciate it, but man, when you put it that way, it all kind of makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? I mean, I'm not an expert in International trade law. But Trump's justifications for these tariffs have always been pretty thin. As Chris and I were just talking about. Trump claimed his tariffs on Canada were to stop fentanyl trafficking, even though less than 1% of the fentanyl we see at the border comes from Canada. Less than 1%. Now for the first time, we have a federal court saying that we all, well, we all kind of sort of knew to be true already. The president's justification for this trade war is BS and that is not all. The court tonight also ordered that all of the tariffs Trump has collected so far be vacated. Just how that will work, especially from a White House that doesn't exactly abide by every court order. And what that will all mean, I do not know. This is just breaking this news in the last couple of hours, but I have the right person to ask. Starting us off tonight is Arizona Attorney General Chris Mays, who co led this lawsuit against Donald Trump's tariffs. Attorney General Mace, thank you for joining us on such short notice. This all just happened in the last couple of hours, as you well know. Let me just start because I think we're all trying to digest this and people at home are wondering what this exactly means. It's our understanding that this ruling applies to all tariffs except for the ones imposed on steel and aluminum first. Is that right? And can you just give us the scope of the impact of this ruling tonight?

[Chris Mays]

Sure. Thanks, Jen, and thanks for having me. It's a huge day for American consumers, for small businesses all throughout this country who were on the precipice of being absolutely devastated and harmed by these tariffs. And so we are celebrating this. We, like you, are still digesting it, but essentially you're right. I mean this, the Court of International Trade in a very thoughtful decision said that essentially all of the tariffs that Donald Trump engaged in under ipa, basically the April tariffs, are unlawful. And so they are enjoined. They are essentially enjoined. As of tonight, as you and I are speaking, it looks like the Trump administration has made it clear they're going to try to appeal this decision and they'll probably seek a stay. But for now, this is good news for the people of America.

[News Anchor]

No question about it. I mean, there's been understandable panic concern about costs and so many areas of goods that people rely on. I want to get to the legal next steps in a moment. I just want to ask, I mean, the three judge panel also ordered that any tariff payments already collected be vacated, which sounds like it means be paid back. Is that what it means. And how exactly would that work?

[Chris Mays]

Yeah, I think we're still sorting through that, so I don't want to be too declarative about that. But, yes, essentially it vacates the tariffs and it enjoins them from going forward. So that's why we're expecting Trump to try to appeal this decision. It'll probably end up at the United States Supreme Court at some point in the very near future.

[News Anchor]

So just in the last minutes right before we came on air, the Trump administration did file a notice of appeal, which I'm sure doesn't surprise you. As you were just saying, it also has seemed. It's always seemed weird that Donald Trump just had the unilateral power to wake up and decide to put tariffs in every country in the world for whatever reason. He decided as a layperson. But even with this appeal being filed and with some of their aggressive responses, he's also somebody who doesn't really have a history of complying always with court rulings. So what happens if he doesn't? I know we're just digesting this, but have you thought about that with the others who filed this lawsuit?

[Chris Mays]

Yeah. No, it's a fair point. And as you know, the Democratic AGs have sued Donald Trump now, I think more than 20 times on a couple of occasions. You are right. He has violated federal court orders. And what we have done is we have gone back into the federal court when that happens, and we have asked for what's called a motion to compel. So I suppose if they try to continue to collect these tariffs and they try to continue the tariff schemes despite the Court of International Trades opinion, we would have to go back in for a motion to compel. Let's hope that's not necessary. And let's see what happens next.

[News Anchor]

We will see. We'll have to keep talking about it with you and your other Democratic AGs in a statement they've had a pretty aggressive response to. This is one way to define it. But I think it's so important to untangle all of this. And you're the perfect expert to do that with. In a statement after the ruling, the White House said America's trade deficits constitute a national emergency. And that's up to the president to decide, not to judges. I mean, essentially, the courts seem to say the opposite. But what do you say to that?

[Chris Mays]

No, that's right. And so there's a couple of things here. Number one, fundamentally, the power to levy tariffs rests with Congress. Right. And as you know, nowhere in IA does it even mention the word tariffs. Now, the court, in its decision didn't say that the president, whoever the president is, never can levy tariffs under ipa. But what the court is saying is the President does not have unbounded authority to levy these tariffs. And that's what this was. I mean, he just sort of woke up one day and decided that he was going to levy tariffs on Canada and China and Mexico and the worldwide tariffs and declared that this was all based on fentanyl. Well, okay. But then came up with different reasons for it, as you just pointed out. So what are the reasons for it? And if you're going to put tariffs on tomatoes, what does that have to do with fentanyl?

[News Anchor]

It's a good question. Tomatoes and fentanyl. The other way they seem to have responded. Trump adviser Stephen Miller tweeted, the judicial coup is out of control. Which seems to be kind of a predictable knee jerk reaction to any time a court rules against them. Now, this panel, as I started off the show saying, was unanimous. One of the appointees on the panel was a Trump appointee. But what do you say to that sort of response from the White House?

[Chris Mays]

You know, it's just that it's so disappointing, Jen. And it just points to a trend that we are seeing of this administration going after judges, undermining the authority of the judicial branch of government, not respecting the two other branches of government. I mean, again, that's what this case is about. This case is about the President's power vis a vis Congress. And now he's disrespecting judges and he basically makes these sort of very disrespectful and alarming statements every time he loses a case. And that's just not how things are done in our country.

[News Anchor]

We've already discussed some of this. You know, they've already filed their notice of appeal. You said it could go to the Supreme Court. What's next? What should we be watching for in the next days and weeks here?

[Chris Mays]

So I think you've kind of laid out some of them, which is, you know, what does, you know, do they seek a stay of this court's decision? We'll watch for that. They can certainly they have the ability to do that. If this court does not allow for a stay, then we'll have to watch to make sure that the Trump administration does not, as you pointed out, violate its order. And then I would be watching for, you know, how businesses react for the, to this. I think that a lot of small businesses, mid sized businesses, large businesses, are all going to support this and be absolutely thrilled with it and hope that it sticks because these tariffs are causing chaos for our consumers. This is a tax. This is a direct tax, Jen, on the people of America. And I think that's why this is such a huge victory and a huge night for our country because hopefully it's the start of us getting things back on track and preventing this harm.

[News Anchor]

No question about that. Arizona Attorney General Chris Mays, thank you so much for joining me on such short notice and providing so much helpful information to people watching out there. I really appreciate it.

[Chris Mays]

Thanks, John.

[News Anchor]

And coming up, even more breaking news tonight. Somehow Elon Musk made it official, saying his time in government has come to an end and he leaves behind the most pro waste fraud, pro abuse government we've probably ever seen. Mark Greenblatt and Rob Storch are two of the government watchdogs that Donald Trump fired during his first week back in office. And they join me in just 90 seconds.

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[News Anchor]

So we have even more breaking news tonight, folks. Somehow Elon Musk has announced that his time as special government employee has come to an end. On his social media site, he wrote, I would like to thank President Trump for the opportunity to reduce wasteful spending. The Doge mission will only strengthen over time as it becomes a way of life throughout the government, sort of ending his role in demolishing huge swaths of the federal government with a whimper, I kind of think. But to be honest, the Trump administration never really actually cared that much about reducing wasteful spending or rooting out fraud and abuse. I mean, remember how in the literal first week of his second term, Trump unlawfully fired 17 inspectors general across various federal agencies. The job of inspectors general is literally to root out waste, fraud and abuse within their assigned agencies. So when Trump fired those IGs, he was effectively saying, I actually don't care that much about that at all. I mean, fast forward to today and the Washington Post reports that some of the replacements Trump has picked to fill the empty IG rolls come from deeply partisan, deeply shady backgrounds. I mean, for example, Trump nominated a man named Thomas March Bell to be the Inspector General for Health and Human Services. And back in the late 90s, Bell notably resigned from a state government job after he allegedly mishandled thousands of dollars in taxpayer money. To be the IG for the va, Trump picked a woman named Cheryl Mason, a former senior advisor to VA Secretary Doug Collins, the very cabinet secretary she's supposed to be overseeing, which seems tough. And for the Department of Labor Inspector General, Trump nominated Anthony d' Esposito, who the Washington Post points out is a former Republican congressman who lost his New York seat after he was accused of putting his mistress and his fiance's daughter on his official taxpayer funded payroll. Sometimes you just can't make up the stories. Joining me now are two former inspectors general who were fired by Trump earlier this year. Mark Greenblatt is the former Inspector General at the Department of Interior. Rob Storch is the former Inspector General at the Department of Defense. Thank you so much for being with me here tonight. I think I told you both before we got started that I remember many days of waking up and seeing there was a new inspector general report that was gonna be released. And when you're in the White House, you think, oh, something I can't say on television. And I raised that because I think the relationship, in my experience at least, and I think for most people who've worked in Democratic and Republican White Houses, is respectful but not friendly. Why is that important?

[Mark Greenblatt]

Well, you have to have some level of remove an Inspector general can't be buddy, buddy with everyone. We know that, you know, we're sort of the skunk at the picnic, and that's something that we take very seriously. That we need to have some distance so that we can be independent, that we can call balls and strikes just like an umpire in baseball. And that our findings, our recommendations will be viewed in a credible way because we're not too close with either party. That's the key thing for inspectors general, is to be independent, not political actors.

[Rob Storch]

Yeah, I totally agree. In fact, I'd add, you know, when I was at the Department of Justice, we used to say that you'd get on an elevator and everyone would get off. It wasn't quite like that.

[News Anchor]

It would be awkward on the elevator.

[Rob Storch]

It would be awkward on the elevator. But on the other hand, good leaders of whatever political persuasion, I think, appreciate it when people come to them, let them know about issues and concerns and give them an opportunity to address that. In order to do that effectively, you can't be too close to the people that you're over saying politically or otherwise.

[News Anchor]

And because your responsibility, I think you probably both see it, is to the American people and ensuring things are efficient and there isn't a abuse of power or abuse of programs. One of the criteria and one of the reasons I'm so grateful you both are here is it's so important for people to understand what these roles are because they're in every White House, every federal government, not in the White House, but in every federal government. And there was a description today in the Washington Post story by someone where a former official who said there are basic thresholds that you need to meet in order to be a good inspector general. Have you managed a big office before? Have you done investigations before? Have you worked in this community? Is that right? What is she missing?

[Rob Storch]

Yeah, it's absolutely right. And it's critically important. The law has very clear requirements about what's allowed and what's not allowed in nominating inspectors general. It's not allowed to consider political affiliation. And that's critically important for the reasons that Mark and I have talked about. If you're seen as a partisan, there's no way you can do hard hitting oversight or do it in a credible way. Right. So the law is very clear that that's not allowed. And it is very specific about what is allowed and what required is that the person have integrity and that they have demonstrated ability in the areas that are relevant to being an inspector general, law, accounting, investigations and the like. And that's up to the president to nominate people like that. And ultimately it's up to the United States Senate, which has the confirmation power to ensure that people who are in these important roles meet those tests.

[News Anchor]

I started our segment just talking a little bit about how there has been this constant restatement of rooting out waste, fraud and abuse as the objective of this administration. Yet when you see the firing, which you both experienced, and then the hiring or the suggestion they're going to hire some of the people I just talked through, what do you think of that stated goal of rooting out waste, fraud and abuse?

[Mark Greenblatt]

Well, it's certainly problematic. I mean, I think three of the nominees, the three that you highlighted are very problematic and I would say make a mockery of the entire inspector general construct, which is at root to get after waste, fraud and abuse. These folks are, I think, unqualified, and I would argue that their actions are disqualified. So it's very, very troubling from my perspective that these nominees are for very important, significant positions. They run criminal investigations, ethics investigations. They do audits over massive programs. There's a lot at stake here. And I think the American people should be quite, you know, troubled by these nominees. Frankly, the three of them that you highlighted, they're very, very problematic.

[News Anchor]

It feels like ones people should really pay attention to. You mentioned the Senate has a role, advice and consent, how it all works. The Senate has a role. What should they be asking? How should they be, you know, quizzing these, these nominees?

[Rob Storch]

Well, as I mentioned, there are two criteria in the statute. One is integrity and one is their demonstrated ability in the relevant areas. And when it comes to integrity, that's what have you done over your life? Do you have the integrity? I used to tell my folks all the time, we live in the glassiest of glass houses, right? If you're going to do oversight over the programs and personnel of a major department within our government, you better have the integrity necessary to lead that operation. Right? And so the Senate should be asking about that and then also about the qualifications. Do these people really have the qualifications or are they being appointed for what are essentially political reasons? And in that regard, I'd say another thing I used to tell my folks all the time is that so much of what we do in the IG community is a political interest to someone that it's absolutely essential that we be nonpartisan and not even have a hint of partisanship in our work.

[News Anchor]

We have to leave it there. I hope you two will come back. This is so important for people to understand. Mark Greenblatt. Rob Storch, thank you so much for joining me and for your service too. I really appreciate it. Coming up, do you remember the Enron scandal? I bet you you do. Well, one provision buried deep down in Donald Trump's big nasty bill that opened the door to corporate fraud just like that. And two people who blew, blew the lid off the biggest corporate, one of the biggest corporate scandals in the nation's history are once again sounding the alarm. They're going to join me to talk about it when we come back.

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[News Anchor]

I want to take a moment to turn back the clock because it might hold a big lesson about our future. Back in the early 2000s, deregulation was kind of all the rage. And then this happened. Good evening. You've been hearing a lot about Enron. Enron disclosed financial problems.

[Chris Mays]

Company earnings reports were wrong.

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[News Anchor]

Abrupt layoffs left more than a quarter of the Enron workforce unemployed. The company was using suspect accounting practices. A former executive says she saw Box after box of shredded evidence. The government has won its first criminal conviction in the collapse of the energy giant.

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When you expect the police don't destroy evidence.

[News Anchor]

Two former top executives of the bankrupt telecom giant WorldCom were arrested today, charged.

[Rob Storch]

With criminal fraud, the biggest corporate bankruptcy in U.S. history, eclipsing that of Enron.

[News Anchor]

Enron and WorldCom, two Fortune 500 companies went bankrupt less than a year apart. And their collapses sent complete shockwaves through the US Economy at the time, wiping out retirement plans and putting thousands of people out of work. And it turned out both companies were engaging in massive accounting fraud. So in 2002, Congress passed a law creating the Public Company Accounting oversight board, or PCAOB. It passed 423 to 3 in the House and 9920 in the Senate. Imagine that these days. I mean, even Republicans agreed it was a good idea. All of them almost. But it wouldn't have been possible without two whistleblowers who sounded the alarm. Sharon Watkins at Enron and Cynthia Cooper at WorldCom. They shared Time magazine's 2002 Person of the Year award for exposing the rampant fraud that had been taking place. And now they're sounding the alarm again because the oversight board designed to prevent another Enron or WorldCom is on the chopping block in the Republican budget. See, there's always bad things buried in there. We're going to keep talking about them. In an op ed in the New York Times, Watkins and Cooper, we witnessed how unchecked power collusion at the highest levels and manipulated financial statements can bring down iconic companies, destabilize markets and vaporize billions of dollars and thousands of jobs overnight. That's why we are raising our voices now against a proposal by Republican lawmakers to eliminate the Public Company Accounting Oversight Board. And they added the silent, immeasurable value of well designed safeguards lies in the scandals they prevent from happening. Joining us now are Sharon Watkins and Cynthia Cooper, former vice presidents and whistleblowers at Enron and WorldCom respectively. Thank you both so much for being here with me. Sharon, let me start with you. I mean, that last line I read sits with me. The scandals they prevent from happening. So for big companies today, for people who remember Enron but are trying to understand how this applies to, what does this board help prevent?

[Sharon Watkins]

Well, they are making sure audits have the right standards, the right audit quality, and then they're auditing the auditors. Are they following these standards? Have they cut corners? Are they compromised because they're doing so much consulting work for the client? You know, has this client become very important to them, which was a problem at Enron. Enron was Arthur Anderson's largest client and basically they failed. Huge audit failure. Arthur Anderson is no more. But that's the biggest problem. Checks, balances, safeguards. No one's going to pat you on the back for the scandals that were averted because they never happened. You know, we.

[News Anchor]

This helped prevent them. Cynthia, there's this provision. I mean you really both sounded the alarm on this. I don't think a lot of people were paying attention to it. That's why we really wanted to talk about it. But there's provision. This provision in the bill would fold the work of this oversight board into the sec. And the agency, as I understand, is already under the sec. So help us understand because I'm sure this will be the defense of it, how that would compromise their ability to do the work they're doing.

[Cynthia Cooper]

Well, great question. The PCAOB was established as a cornerstone for strong audit quality through the Sarbanes Oxley Act. And you can't just pick up these functions and easily move them to the SEC. The people at the PCAB have very specialized knowledge, 20 years of experience, and they were set up intentionally by Congress as an independent body to provide independent oversight. So while the SEC does approve board members and approve the budget, the PCAOB is independent and it's actually funded by public companies. So it's not funded by taxpayers. Moving it to the SEC would create an extra burden on taxpayers. Although this is being sold as a provision that will actually be more efficient and save taxpayers money, which it doesn't seem to.

[News Anchor]

There seem to be a lot of problems with that argument. Sharon, the board at the time and I mentioned this was pretty, almost universally considered a good idea, at least in Congress when it was created. Why do you think that advocates of this or Republicans who put it in there, why do you think they want it in there? And who stands to gain? Which companies stand to gain? What types of companies stand to game if this stays in there?

[Sharon Watkins]

Well, it's going to be the elimination of the oversight of auditing firms. I just don't really believe the SEC can get up to speed. And Cynthia and I wanted to write this op ed piece almost like to put a line in the sand like, okay, you're almost getting rid of this safeguard. Watch what happens in the next decade. We've enjoyed really scandal free times for public companies. The scandals have been in crypto, in venture capital, with Theranos. We haven't had a major Enron, WorldCom like corporate collapse. And it's because these safeguards are in place. So, you know, it doesn't look good right now. Once it's eliminated, it's hard to put it back together. And we wanted to mark a point in time to say, watch out, here comes the next scandal.

[News Anchor]

It is an important warning sign. Cynthia, you were, as I started the show talking about, or started the segment talking about, you were both at the forefront in fighting some of the worst fraud in decades, if not longer than that. When you look at this moment, I mean, Sharon mentioned crypto and what could happen there. How do you view this moment we're in and what concerns you the most?

[Cynthia Cooper]

I mean, I think it's just history repeating itself. We continue to go through these cycles where we have regulation because of some catastrophe, and then we somehow convince ourselves that we no longer need basic guardrails, safeguards in place, and so we begin to deregulate. But I think what people don't fully appreciate is there are inherent risks that are always there. There's, of course, always the temptation to commit fraud. And audit firms today still have conflicted interests. They still sell advisory services to the clients they audit. And of course, they're paid by the clients themselves. So the PCAOB is really just a basic smart safeguard, just a check and balance that we need. It's critical, and I think to understand what may be driving the gutting of the pcaob, you have to really understand the ideologies that are at play. For example, you have the accelerationists who want to. The tech accelerationists want to accelerate technology and eliminate as many checks and balances as they can, as much regulation. And then of course, you've got the tech libertarians and you have what was a fringe group, the neoreactionaries, who are no longer fringe. And their belief is that democracy, democracy is outdated, that it needs to be replaced with autocracy, with a Caesar, and that you can't fix things internally. So what you do is you burn institutions to the ground and then you rebuild them or either abolish them completely and that we need to move towards authoritarian or a caesar like executive at the top of the country. These ideologies have, in my mind, an outsized influence on what we are seeing today. And we need to really pick up these different lenses to understand what each action represents. I think that, you know, some of these actions that we're seeing taken really are not representative of mainstream maga. So I think it's important to use different lenses. And I don't really see as much coverage as I would like to in the mainstream media.

[News Anchor]

Well, that's one of the reasons we wanted to have you both here tonight. Thank you so much for joining me, Sharon Watkins, Cynthia Cooper, thank you both. And coming up, of all the messes inside the federal government right now, there are a lot. The one inside FEMA might be one of the most concerning. I'll tell you why when we come back. Last year, Hurricane Helene destroyed entire communities and killed more than 230 people across six states. And about half of the damage and half of the deaths occurred in just one state, North Carolina. So just weeks before the election, President Trump went to the state to make its residents an incredibly specific promise.

[Rob Storch]

When I'm president, I will stand with you until the communities are fully rebuilt, every single inch of every property will be fully rebuilt, greater and more beautiful than it was before.

[News Anchor]

So that was from just back in October. And here was the local news in that same area of North Carolina tonight.

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The magnitude of the destruction still unfathomable. As roads and bridges continue to be repaired in western North Carolina. The cleanup efforts still daunting.

[Cynthia Cooper]

But we are seeing a lot more debris than was even estimated at the beginning, particularly with respect to our waterways, where we're seeing very often 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 times the amount of debris that was initially estimated. And so we have a big task.

[Advertiser 1]

Still before us, a task the governor's Recovery Office for western North Carolina says was made more difficult after Governor Stein's request to extend the 100% reimbursement rate for debris cleanup 180 days after September 25th was denied.

[News Anchor]

That's right. I mean, as you just saw in all of that footage, there's plenty of rebuilding still to be done, tons of debris still to be cleared. But Trump's acting FEMA administrator denied North Carolina's governor's full request for funding to clear that debris, calling it not warranted. Now, why is Trump backtracking from his promise here? It's really unclear. You might think that it's because North Carolina's Governor Josh Stein is a Democrat. But whatever's going on at FEMA really doesn't seem to be all that partisan. I mean, back in March, 14 tornadoes touched down in the state of Arkansas, leaving three dead and dozens injured. The very next week, Arkansas governor and Trump's former White House press secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders asked Trump for a major disaster declaration so that she could get FEMA funding for her state. But nope, Trump denied Governor Sanders request. To make matters even more confusing, a few months Later, Trump approved that request, the same request that he had initially denied. And even that, that strange denial and then about face and approval was more straightforward than what most states are getting from FEMA right now. On the same day that Arkansas got hit by those 14 tornadoes, the state of Missouri faced storms and tornadoes of their own. And like Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Missouri's Republican Governor, Mike Kehoe, asked President Trump for a major disaster declaration. In fact, he asked for multiple of them. But in the governor of Missouri's case, he just didn't hear back. He and the state of Missouri were essentially ghosted by President Trump while asking for disaster relief. Now, after months of waiting, last week, Missouri Republican Senator Josh Hawley took the situation basically into his own hands and asked Trump's Department of Homeland Security secretary for help while questioning her in front of the entire US Senate.

[Advertiser 1]

We've lost almost 20 people now in major storms just in the last two months in Missouri. It's been a terrible spring for us here again, can I ask for your help? Will you commit to helping for those three major disaster declaration requests that are pending? Will you help expedite those, Secretary Noem, and get those in front of the president, get those approved? We are. We are desperate for the assistance in Missouri.

[Chris Mays]

Yes, absolutely. Make sure the application gets to the White House as soon as possible.

[Advertiser 1]

Fantastic. Thank you.

[News Anchor]

It seems that stunt of Holly's worked, but this issue goes well beyond just Missouri. After Hawley's stunt, FEMA processed 10 major disaster declaration requests, denying two of them and approving eight. There are still 11 requests pending, the oldest one having been filed on April 1, meaning it has been sitting, collecting dust essentially for two months. These are the kind of requests you sometimes wake up the president for. These are not the kind of things that you sit on for two months. A former White House deputy Homeland Security adviser under Joe Biden told the Washington Post that not only that, only that she felt that the recent storms in Missouri met the threshold for a major disaster declaration. But she said, quote, we would do this in a matter of hours. Last year, on average, there was a major disaster declaration issued every four days. Just to give you a sense, now, most of those disaster declarations came from hurricane season, which starts for us this year on Sunday. Former FEMA administrator Dan Criswell joins me next. Welcome back. And joining me now to talk about what is a very unsettling situation around FEMA and assistance and what states need is the former FEMA administrator under President Joe Biden, Dan Krismall. It's great to See you. I remember bringing you to the briefing anytime you were willing because you spoke with such clarity. I just want to start by asking you about something you just mentioned to me, which is that all of these declarations that he's signing are not created equal. They provide different types of assessments. So what has struck you about what has been approved and what hasn't been approved, even as it's been delayed?

[Dan Criswell]

Well, Jen, I think the biggest thing that stands out to me is the fact that on those declarations where public assistance has been approved, there's been no hazard mitigation. Typically, a governor will request IA if needed. If there's homes, Public assistance.

[News Anchor]

What is ia?

[Dan Criswell]

Individual Assistance. Thank you. I'm still in my acronym world here. Individual Assistance and Public Assistance. And then they ask for hazard mitigation statewide, which gives the governor additional funding to help ensure that they can make their states and their communities more resilient to future disasters. In my looking back at all of the different disaster declaration requests that's never been not approved, but none that have been, at least the last 11 that went through, none of them had this hazard mitigation, which is really concerning because now you have communities that not only are they struggling to figure out if they're going to be able to recover and rebuild because they don't know how much support they're going to get, they also aren't going to be able to rebuild in a way that makes them stronger to reduce the impact to future severe weather events.

[News Anchor]

Which is the whole part of the point here is the rebuilding stage was just such a big part of the role I was remembering, and I mentioned this briefly, as the communications director formerly in the White House, you'd get disaster declarations, major disaster declarations you'd send out sometimes in the middle of the night to provide clarity to people. You were the person who was often with the governor calling somebody in the White House. How long would those take and what was the process that you would go through in a normal course of events?

[Dan Criswell]

Well, when we would see significant impacts from a storm like we saw in Kentucky or Missouri with the tornadoes recently, the first thing I would do is get on the phone with the governor and then I would be on a plane the next day going down there to talk to him personally, but also to see the impact to the communities, it's really hard for me to make a decision in Washington, D.C. because I can't experience what they're going through. I don't know what their lived situation is. And every community has a different experience. And with that information, I was able to make sound recommendations up to the president. We also used technology, right? We used aerial imagery, GIS data to be able to assess what those impacts were so we, we could move things along faster. And it's, you know, to my understanding right now that they're not using the technology assessments that we really tried to implement during the last administration to try to speed things up, to try to get rid of the bureaucracy.

[News Anchor]

And also, what could have taken hours or a day is now taking months in some cases. One of the other interesting points I've heard you make, but I think it's helpful for people to understand is that even as, as these have been approved a month or two months later I mentioned Missouri, Arkansas, there's still a significant amount of damage done by the delay. Can you explain that a little bit further?

[Dan Criswell]

One thing I talk about a lot is our most precious commodity that we have is time. And so everything that takes longer to make a decision is time that you can't get back. And so that's time that a community is living in ambiguity about whether or not they're going to. And so if they don't have the budgets to be able to support everything that they're going to have to do, then they're going to have to prioritize how they're going to start their recovery process based on what resources they have available. And as they get additional resources, then they can make additional decisions. But that time creates more vulnerable communities for individuals. They're trying to make life decisions after they just lost everything. How can they make a life decision about where I'm going to go if they don't have insurance or they're underinsured, if they just don't know if the federal government's going to be in there or not?

[News Anchor]

Seems incredibly difficult for communities, for governors, for mayors. I mentioned North Carolina, which was kind of recent development today. I mean, Trump had gone there in October, made a big promise, and he denied, FEMA, denied extending the 100% reimbursement level for Cleveland, North Carolina, which the estimates suggested could cost $200 million. What do you make of that?

[Dan Criswell]

Well, the damage that I saw in North Carolina was unprecedented. And one of the reasons that we made the recommendation to President Biden to give 100% for 180 days was because of the amount of destruction. And we haven't seen destruction like that in that scale, I think maybe since Katrina, maybe some other storms before that. And Katrina is one of the few that have gone beyond 180 days. But if you can't get that debris out of the way, that that's the biggest thing that's going to start that recovery process. And so being able to help those states with this critical piece of recovery so homes can be rebuilt, so the infrastructure can be repaired, so people can get back to work, the small businesses can get started back up, the debris removal is the first step and the most important step to get that whole process started. And it was catastrophic.

[News Anchor]

Across North Carolina, seeing the photos, we only unfortunately have about 30 seconds left. But I wanted to ask you, I mean, there's been cuts to staffing, there's been cuts, a gutting of the department. How concerned are you about their ability to respond to disasters as we're about to approach hurricane season?

[Dan Criswell]

Well, I think two things. We've lost a lot of institutional knowledge. Right. And so the ability to be able to anticipate what the potential impacts are going to be could be, you know, at risk. But they've also, they don't have clear direction. And so there's still this ambiguity about what their role is going to be. And that, again, costs time, which can cost lives.

[News Anchor]

Dan Creswell, thank you so much for joining us, Jen. Really appreciate it. And coming up, a story about Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace. It involves social media bots, burner accounts and a never ending need for attention. We'll be right back. There are a lot of puzzling things about Congresswoman Nancy Mace, Republican of South Carolina. I mean, there is her transformation from never Trumper to super Maga pretty rapidly. There is her tendency to declare herself a victim, like the time she wore a scarlet A on the House floor after voting against Speaker Kevin McCarthy. And more recently, there's her relentless campaign to police women's bathrooms and torment transgender women. You can see her there doing exactly that. There's one through line in all this for Nancy. She likes publicity. Back in 2021, she reportedly described herself in a strategy memo as the freshman thought leader on federal issues and national Nancy, and tasked her staffers with booking her on a national TV outlet between one and three times per day, a staggering nine times per week at a minimum, and on local TV channels at least six times per week. So to feed her hunger for publicity, here's some more, courtesy of Wired magazine. Several former staffers to Mace, speaking on the condition of anonymity, of course, because they fear reprisal from their former boss, obviously described how they were tasked with setting up burner accounts on a variety of social media platforms to monitor what people were saying about Mace and bolster her image, one staffer says, because we had to make multiple accounts, burn our accounts and go on and reply to comments saying things that weren't true. Even Reddit forums. We were congressional staff and there were actual things we could be doing to help the constituents. No kidding. When contacted by Wired for comment, Mesa's communications director said it would be a slap in the face to taxpayers across the country for me to spend time on their dime commenting on my boss's personal life. Wait, I guess there is such a bad a thing as bad publicity, is there? Then again, Nancy Mace, it's kind of hard to tell. So, Congresswoman Mace, you're welcome. I guess that does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok for now. Goodbye from Washington and we'll see you next week.

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