← The Briefing with Jen Psaki
The Briefing with Jen Psaki
Fight or Flight: Why It Pays to Stand Up to Trump
00:40:37
As Trump stokes fear to leverage his power, Jen Psaki weighs the cost of obeying his demands against the reward of resisting. Congressman Jamie Raskin joins the show to help to break down the ways in which the courts, lawmakers and the American people are standing up to Trump. Later, Jen welcomes former Russian chess champion Garry Kasparov to reflect on the ways that Americans can prevent the country from backsliding into dictatorship. Jen also delves into RFK Jr.’s first press conference as HHS Secretary amid the deadly measles outbreak, in which Kennedy promoted claims about autism. Dr. Ashish Jha joins to discuss how the scientific community views Kennedy's agenda, and the damage it's doing to public health.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:12]
Jen Psaki
Okay, there is a lot of good stuff happening right now. We're seeing some real fight from Democratic lawmakers. That's good. We're seeing institutions stand up to Donald Trump. That's definitely good. We're seeing courts stop him in his tracks. That's great. And this weekend we saw more massive protests all across the country. But I actually wanted to start today by talking about fear, because fear is clearly a major driver of Trump's brand of politics, always has been. And how we all respond to that fear in this moment is going to determine a whole lot about the future of this country. Congressman Jamie Raskin summed it up pretty well in the New York Times this week. He said, there's a regime of fear that's been brought down on society. People need to see leaders and organizers standing up and speaking with authority against what's happening. Congressman Jamie Raskin summed up very well there. He's here today. We have a lot to talk about. We're going to talk to him in just a moment. But I also want to talk about a few other things, because this week we also saw at least one Republican acknowledge that that fear, too. I mean, during an event in Alaska this week, Senator Lisa Murkowski was asked what she would say to people who are afraid right now. And she was way more candid than I at least expected her to be.
- [02:23]
Greenlight Infinity Advertiser
What do you have to say to people who are afraid or who represent.
- [02:28]
Monday.com Advertiser
People who are afraid?
- [02:31]
Jen Psaki
We are all afraid. Okay? So I'm saying, but we are. We're in a Time and a place where I don't know. I certainly have not. I have not been here before. And I'll tell you, I'm. I'm oftentimes very anxious myself about, about using my voice. Because retaliation is real.
- [03:17]
Greenlight Infinity Advertiser
And that's not right.
- [03:21]
Jen Psaki
It's definitely not right. And retaliation is real. We've seen it. Those fears are real. We all know that Trump is vindictive, and he's betting he can gain a lot of leverage by creating even more fear. But at the same time, we've already seen that giving in to his demands gets you absolutely nowhere. I mean, when law firms cave, the demands don't stop. The firms that struck deals with Trump are now learning that the White House will effectively be choosing their pro bono clients for them. And when universities cave, the demands don't stop either. Columbia's deal with Trump might now include a court decree giving the White House control over the university's management. And when media outlets gave, the demands definitely don't stop. I mean, Paramount entered into settlement talks with Trump over a frivolous lawsuit, and Trump still pushed the FCCC to revoke CBS's broadcast license. Point is, capitulating to Trump won't save you. He'll just be targeted again and again. Because when you give in to Trump's demands, you're just sending the message his threats and tactics work. You're not putting the episode behind you. You're just inviting more demands. That's how mob bosses work. And remember, fear is what Donald Trump sees as his most effective tool. And in some ways, it's his only tool. Fear of retribution and fear of him weaponizing the powers of his office is basically what he relies on. And he's obviously relying on it to use that office in ways we've never seen before. I mean, he's trying to use the IRS of all places, to target the nonprofit status of universities, which has the goal of making all nonprofit groups afraid of continuing the work that they are doing. He's trying to use immigration powers to make any non citizen fear that he could change their legal status and force them out of the country at a moment's notice. Trump is using his office to instill fear in every single way he can. And he's doing it in a way that he thinks at least is politically smart. He thinks it is. He's trying to lure his political opponents into making this about just defending elite institutions like Harvard or big city law firms nobody's ever heard of. He's spreading lies about Camaro, Abrego, Garcia, daring people to defend him personally rather than defending the rights he's been denied. And on the issue of Garcia specifically, some Democrats have said it's a distraction from the economic calamity he's caused. Some have said Kilmar Abrego Garcia is an imperfect hero for this issue. Maybe he is saying it's playing on Trump's turf on immigration. And Republicans really do think this is their turf. They really do. I mean, just listen to how Stephen Miller described this issue.
- [05:58]
Stephen Miller
President Trump, his policy is foreign terrorists that are here illegally get expelled from the country, which, by the way, is a 9010 issue.
- [06:06]
Jen Psaki
Sounds scary. I mean, 90 10. First of all, Stephen Miller needs a math class, I think we've all learned. But that's a big bluff from a little man and his sidekick. It's true that when pollsters are asked broad questions, when they ask broad questions to people out there about immigration and deportation, broadly, Trump's policies do well. But when those questions get more specific, and that's important, it's a totally different story. A YouGov poll this morning found that 6 in 10 this month. Sorry. Found 6 in 10 respondents said they opposed deporting immigrants without criminal convictions to El Salvador to be imprisoned without letting them challenge their deportation in court. 61%. Guys, that's a pretty clear majority, especially compared to the 26% of respondents who said they supported Trump's actions. It's not exactly 9010 in Stephen Miller's favor on that one, is it? And we're seeing that on the ground in states across the country, too. Even some pretty red states. Just listen to the earful that Republican Senator Chuck Grassley got from an older, mostly white crowd in Iowa this week. Are you gonna bring that guy back from El Salvador? Why not? Well, because that's not a power of Congress.
- [07:25]
Stephen Miller
The Supreme Court said to bring him back.
- [07:27]
Jen Psaki
The judges are.
- [07:28]
Stephen Miller
Yeah. Constitution.
- [07:31]
Jen Psaki
He's defined the Constitution. Trump don't care if I get an order. Pay attention. For $1,200, and I just say no. Does that stand up? Because he's got an order from the Supreme Court and he just said no?
- [07:47]
Greenlight Infinity Advertiser
Yeah, he just said, screw it.
- [07:50]
Jen Psaki
The president of that country is not subject to our U.S. supreme Court. Not sure that was what Senator Grassley was expecting from that town hall meeting in central Iowa. I mean, I guess people in central Iowa are a part of that 10% Stephen Miller was talking about. I mean, who knows? And I guess Reagan appointed federal judges, too, in his calculation. In that federal judge's ruling upholding court decisions requiring the government to facilitate Abrego Garcia's return. Judge James Harvey Wilkinson III did not mince words exactly. He wrote, quote, it is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter, but in this case, it's not hard at all. The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process. That is the foundation of our constitutional order. The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons. I mean, that is a pretty clear distillation of the issue here. Likewise, the Supreme Court dealt Trump another big setback just this weekend. In an order that they issued at 1am Saturday morning, making some of the judges cranky. The court temporarily blocked the administration from deporting another group of detainees to El Salvador under the Alien Enemies act. That was a 7:2 decision by Donald Trump's ultra conservative court. 7:2. So the courts seem to be standing up to him. Some Republicans are standing up to him, and the public is not exactly on his side either. And what's now becoming clear is there are actually rewards for standing up. It's morally right, but there are rewards, too. I mean, after Harvard said it would stand up to Trump's demands, it saw an outpouring of support and an immediate surge in donations. The pushback had enough of an effect on the Trump administration that they came up with a tortured process. Explanation is the only way I can describe it of how this all happened, with White House officials claiming the original demands were were sent by mistake. Okay, so their decision to fight back not only shined a bright spotlight on Donald Trump's power grab, it also made his administration look kind of silly in the process. And any attention like that on any of the crazy stuff they're trying is a good thing right now. When Senator Cory Booker spoke for 25 hours on the Senate floor, it brought attention and news coverage and also made him a hero to Democrats because he wasn't consumed by fear. He just kind of let it rip for 25 hours. When Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez hit the road, they drew tens of thousands of people, if not more, at the rallies. Not just in blue bastions like la, but in places like Tampa, Idaho and Missoula, Montana. Even as staunch progressives, which they proudly are, they're appealing to people across the ideological spectrum because they don't fear fighting back. More recently, Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland traveled to El Salvador this week and pressured the government there to give him a meeting with Kilmar Abrego Garcia. Not only did Van Hollen clearly take a stand in the process, he also proved and showed people that Abrego Garcia was alive and forced the Salvadoran government to play a bit of defense. And since then, Van Hollen has commanded a ton of attention. I mean, this morning he did a round of five Sunday shows talking about his trip. So aside from the obvious moral reasons behind all of this pushback, and there are plenty of those, there's also a big political opportunity for anyone who's willing to take a stand. Look, on their own, any of these things might not seem like a huge deal, but taken together, all of this pushback is starting to matter. Yesterday, tens of thousands more people gathered across the country for another day of nationwide protests. They were called no Kings protests, a follow up to the hands off protest that drew millions into the streets just two weeks ago. But what will any of it translate to? Who knows? But standing up for what's right, trying some things, applying some pressure, getting some media attention is far more effective than being fearful and timid. Because being fearful and timid has never worked against this guy and it sure isn't working now. Congressman Jamie Raskin is standing by, talks about all of this and he joins me in just 90 seconds.
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- [13:07]
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- [13:41]
Jen Psaki
As promised. Joining me now is Maryland Congressman Jamie Raskin. He's the ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee. You all know him. I barely have to introduce him anymore. Everybody knows Jamie Raskin. It's great to see you. Thank you for joining me. I just wanted to start. I mean, there's a ton of things I want to ask you about. So much that's happened this week. I just wanted to start with this latest Supreme Court order stopping more migrants from being deported. I mean, only two justices dissented, Alito and Thomas. No surprise. But I want to read part of Alito's dissent because I'm betting you're going to have some thoughts on this. So here it is. Quote, in sum, literally in the middle of the night, the court issued unprecedented and legally questionable relief without giving the lower courts a chance to rule, without hearing from the opposing party within eight hours of receiving the application, the dubious factual support for its order and without providing any explanation for its order. I refuse to join the court's order because we have no good reason to think that under the circumstances, issuing an order at midnight was necessary or appropriate. I mean, first of all, they were on literally already on the bus and going to be put on a plane and flown to a foreign country. So I think that's reason enough. We're showing exclusive NBC News video of the motorcade right there. Justice Alito seems cranky. I guess is the way to describe it that it's probably past his bedtime. But what do you make of that and kind of this back and forth with the Supreme Court?
- [15:01]
Jamie Raskin
Well, it's a total inversion of the facts of the situation. Justice Alito seems to think that due process applies to government officials. Due process applies to people who are the subjects of governmental coercion. So he summons up all of his outrage to say how dare they do this to the government in the middle of the night? How dare they move so quickly to protect people from being forcibly expelled from the country and banished. And so that is a completely upside down concept based on what's going on in the country. And I'm glad that his extremism is being isolated, at least right now on the Supreme Court. And the majority of the court, including Kavanaugh, including Gorsuch, along with the chief justice and the three liberals and Amy Coney Barrett, are standing up for due process, which is the barrier between the freedoms and rights of the people and then arbitrary power by the government.
- [15:59]
Jen Psaki
That's such a good reminder of due process and who it's supposed to be, for which I think they're completely missing, as well as the 7:2 decision, which is important to remind people of because that's significant. A lot happened with the Supreme Court this week. I mean, this is different, a different case than the Kilmar Abrega Garcia case. But after the Supreme Court upheld the district's court order that the administration facilitate his return to the United States, the White House, particularly Stephen Miller, tried to spin it by falsely claiming that the Supreme Court's order upholding the lower court's ruling was unlawful. He claimed they won, too. I'm curious if you think, because they're human beings, these justices, if you think that impacted the decision to do this order, the specificity, I should say, of this order overnight on Friday night.
- [16:48]
Jamie Raskin
Well, they must be experiencing some of the vertigo and disorientation of the rest of the country as the Trump administration tramples the rights and freedoms of the people, eviscerates due process and then lies about what's happening. So I think that's why you're seeing a movement of the justices to rally behind due process and the idea that everybody gets a fair hearing. You get to see what the evidence is against you, you get to be represented, you get to state your case, you get to explain why all of this is an administrative error, as it was, you know, in the Abrero Garcia case. But I loved your opening, Jen, because people are standing up everywhere, right? So in higher education, which was quaking before, now Harvard University, the oldest college in the country going back to 1636, stands up and says, no, you're not going to take over our university. You've got law firms like Wilmer Hale and Jenner and Block saying, no, we know why. We're lawyers and we're going to stand up for the rule of law. You've got millions of people who've already participated in protests across the country in every state, in blue districts and red districts and purple districts saying, no, we are going to stand up for the Constitution, which is far bigger than any particular politician or administration, no question about it.
- [18:11]
Jen Psaki
And this week was full of that, too, which is why we wanted to start the show that way. The other point, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on this I made, is that there are repercussions to not standing up. I mean, universities that have not stood up, they've been informed that now the Trump administration thinks they're going to be involved in some. Some of their programming and some of what they do as a school. The law firms have been told, or there's reporting that they've been told that they're going to decide what pro bono clients that they have to take on. Obviously, we've seen what's happened with the media. What do you think for people out there, whether it's institutions or universities or individuals, who feel like I need to capitulate right now because I'm going to solve this problem and put it behind me. What do you wish they would know, knowing how Trump operates as you, you do?
- [18:57]
Jamie Raskin
Well, we learned from the last century that you cannot appease fascists and authoritarians. There is no safety in appeasement. And that means you've got to feel the fear which they try to promote through their cruelty. Their cruelty serves the function of imposing a regime of terror on society. But the reason that Franklin Roosevelt said there's nothing to fear but fear itself is because he knew that people had to feel afraid, but then keep going. And that's what courage is. Courage is experiencing the fear but then refusing to back down and moving forward. And that's what's happening in every sector of American society now, including, by the way, the foundations. There was a very powerful statement made by John Palfrey from the MacArthur Foundation. These not for profits are going to have to stand up to defend us. For example, in the healthcare field, where the Trump regime is trying to pull the plug on lots of things, including vaccination, of course, but lots of different kinds of public health efforts. And Mr. Palfrey is basically saying now is the time for the foundations to step into the breach, to use their resources to address all of these huge, catastrophic problems being unleashed on our society.
- [20:14]
Jen Psaki
That's such an interesting quote. I'm glad you brought it up. I mean, there were a lot ofit's so important to talk about the inspiring things. I think there's a lot of dark things happening. One of the things that I thought was also very good this week was obviously Senator Van Hollen, your senator from your state, going to El Salvador. He was able to meet with Abrego Garcia. He also threatened before he went there, he threatened that they would be violating international, they were in violation of international law, which maybe that had an impact on Bukele and the government, who knows? But I'm curious, as you're watching that sort of activity and as we're seeing the Trump administration completely open and willing to send individuals, even American citizens potentially overseas, whether threatening or not threatening, but kind of appealing to or focusing public messaging on the leaders who are doing this as part of what you think is effective here, Part of what Van Hollen did? Yeah.
- [21:10]
Jamie Raskin
Well, I was very proud of my friend Chris Van Hollen for what he did because he restored the humanity to this whole controversy that's going on. And he wasn't afraid or he felt some fear, but he moved forward and he showed everybody, yeah, we can get on an airplane and we can go and face the problem directly. And then of course, they've been lying about the trip and tried to stage some false margarita scene there. But look, President Bukele, who's declared himself a dictator, and the other tyrants, dictators, autocrats of the world have to understand that the Trump administration is not going to last forever. We're going to restore strong democracy to America and we will remember who stood up for democracy in America and who tried to drive us down towards dictatorship and autocracy. So I'm glad that Chris Van Hollen showed exactly where America is and we're not afraid of any dictator anywhere.
- [22:12]
Jen Psaki
Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you as always for joining me today. And coming up, some more ideas about pushing back on Donald Trump right now from someone with a very interesting perspective. Garry Kasparov watched the threat of power hungry dictators in Russia up close. He lived it and he's coming up next.
- [22:34]
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- [23:37]
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- [24:12]
Jen Psaki
What'S the best way to push back against a lawless president? It's what we've been talking about so far on the show, and it's sort of the question right now, in my view. And here's one idea from someone with a very interesting perspective, given his own history here. He's basically saying we need to focus less on the specifics of what Trump is doing and more on how he's doing it. He says, quote, he writes, quote, the American opposition should spend less time criticizing the content of the administration's executive actions, eliciting sympathy for a deported individual, say, or decrying the impact of Trump's tariffs on 401 plans, than focusing on its suspect methods. The real crisis is the lack of due process in the deportations, to take the first example, and the President's assumption of Congress's power to levy taxes, taxes to take the second. Sure, Trump loves tariffs, but he mostly loves exercising power. Spelling out these stakes every day, like Senator Cory Booker did in his record breaking 25 hour speech at the beginning of the month, is vital. Call hearings, press conferences, protests, everything that can be done to draw attention to the attacks on institutions. Don't let Elon Musk and his vandals pretend that what they are doing is about efficiency when their actions are a rounding error at best in the budget. The opposition needs to proudly defend the value system and ingenious framework that made this country great. This may sound corny to cynical Americans who have taken democracy for granted for most of their lives, but it matters. Well, that warning comes from someone who knows the threat of power hungry dictators firsthand. Garry Kasparov retired at the height of his career as a world renowned chess player to speak out against Vladimir Putin. And he paid a price. He was forced into exile as his country slid further and further into dictatorship. And that's the point. We don't have to guess how this story ends. People who have lived it are telling us. And Gary Kasparov joins me now. Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. Your piece was really excellent. I just read a good chunk of it there. But I really wanted to talk to you because we've seen this playbook before as you make this point in your piece. And I wanted to just start by asking you. I covered some of it, but when you look at the way Trump and Elon Musk are operating now, attacking critics, undermining checks and balances, going after the media, what parallels jump out at you the most?
- [26:27]
Stephen Miller
Jen, thank you very much for having me here. I believe it's very important for Americans to hear from people like me, from other dissidents. And that's what organization that I formed eight years ago, Review Democracy Initiative, has been trying to accomplish, to bring dissidents, people who had first had experience about democracy fading away and dictators rising. So very important thing is to understand that there is an existential threat to American democracy because American polity is not immune. Since, you know, you lived in democracy for 250 years and people take it for granted. Nothing is for granted. As Ronald Reagan said, democracy is never more than one generation away from extinction. And that's why I urge you not to look at Trump's actions, the content of the actions. And some of these policies have brought support in the state society, but on the methods. It's not about how much money Doge allegedly saved. Doge is unconstitutional. You have to ask on what basis? Elon Musk and his cronies have been collecting data, sometimes very secret data, from all US Agencies. And how on earth Congress let them do that. And the Senate never heard, never had any confirmation hearings because this is, you know, this is classical oligarchy. And that's in my article. I explained this Russian term, which I roughly translate as understanding. It's not about power vested by legal norms by the Constitution, but power vested by the proximity to real power. So Elon Musk does things that he has been doing because he's close to Trump and nobody's challenging it. Do not let them grab power without any constitutional grounds. So stand your ground. And it's very important that Harvard is taking a stand. And as Representative Ruskin Explained very eloquently that giving in doesn't save you from further, further encroaching by a would be dictator because they take it as a weakness and they demand more from you.
- [28:31]
Jen Psaki
It never ends. It's either mob bosses or authoritarian dictators. Similar, similar types of. I mean, one of the things I know you've seen and experienced is kind of the blind following by other leaders of a dictator. Right. It becomes people who may feel privately opposed and then they follow it. And we've seen that, unfortunately, with far too many in the Republican Party. There have been some cracks. And I don't want to be naive, but I think we also have to look for this. I mean, Senator Lisa Murkowski, I started the show talking about this, one of the few remaining Republican Trump critics admitted, quote, unquote, we are all afraid, referring to whether Republicans can speak out against Trump. It sometimes it feels like the GOP has fully surrendered, but sometimes there are cracks. But what do you see as meaningful cracks? Are there meaningful cracks forming against Trump within the party that has mainly blindly supported him?
- [29:22]
Stephen Miller
No, I don't see any cracks because so far, Trump got everything he wanted. They pushed a button. No matter what they say privately, behind closed doors, they keep pushing the buttons. And that's why, you know, it's speaking about the cracks. It's more of the wishful thinking. First of all, let me tell you, there are no fearless people. We all have fears. The difference is how we can handle these fears.
- [29:45]
Jen Psaki
Yes.
- [29:46]
Stephen Miller
And you can see the Republicans fear of Donald Trump and Elon Musk, who are threatening them with primaries. Did Elon Musk tell them publicly that he would raise $10 million against any Republican senator who would dare vote against Trump's nominees? He did.
- [30:02]
Jen Psaki
Okay.
- [30:04]
Stephen Miller
It's abuse of power in the most. It's blackmail in his purest, purest form. So I think it's very important to recognize that unless we put equal pressure, even more pressure, on GOP senators and members of the House, nothing will happen, at least in the nearest future. I think we have to make sure that they own their decisions. So in every district, in every state where you have a competitive race next year, we have to say that Trump's tariffs is not just Trump tariffs. They are earnings tariffs in Iowa, they're corny tariffs in Texas, they are Keeley's tariffs in North Carolina and in every district, Republicans should know they will own it. And you have to start doing it now. They should recognize that, yes, Trump and Musk is on one side, but eventually you have to face voters. Because while, you know, I agree with Jimmy Ruskin about strength, American democracy and Trump is not going to last forever. Again, don't take it for granted they will try to control the election process in 2026. Because there's one simple question that I think many Americans afraid to ask. Do you believe that Pam Bondi and Keshe Patel will follow constitutional Trump orders when the push comes to Savo?
- [31:32]
Jen Psaki
I think we know the answer to that. I wanted to ask you before I let you go and this has been so fascinating. You launch a new substack. We love substack. Everybody should follow you on substack along with the democracy initiative.
- [31:44]
Stephen Miller
It's called the Next Move.
- [31:44]
Jen Psaki
That's going to be the next move. I was just going to say that anyone can find it on substack. Now in your launch, you write, I agree with this so much. You write that the phrase threat to democracy has been used so often, it's it started to lose its meaning. And we saw this actually in exit polls from the November election too. And I think this is something the majority of the country feels strongly about, the defense of democracy. But the term doesn't mean the same to people in the country. The phrasing, how should people be talking about it in order to be more effective or continue to defend democracy that they believe in?
- [32:19]
Stephen Miller
Yeah, I think that democracy is a very general term and that's why even dictators use it very often saying manageable democracy, sovereign democracy, liberal democracy, democracy, whatever. It's about individual rights. I mean, Declaration of Independence doesn't mention democracy even once. It's all about the rights. And you just simply have to look at the list of grievances presented by the founding fathers against British king. And just to understand that right now the would be king in the Oval Office trying to actually bring these very laws that 250 years ago have been thrown away by American patriots. So it's about individual rights. It's about simply following both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution. And again, do not try to bring ideological agenda. We have many disagreements. But right now it's not about our debates on some really hot issues. It's about preserving, defending this very framework that will allow us to continue discussions when hopefully one day sooner rather than later, Donald Trump and his Hedgeman will be gone.
- [33:30]
Jen Psaki
Gary Kasparov, thank you so much. You have a new substack, the Next move. Everybody to subscribe. Thank you for joining me so much. And coming up, we're going to talk about another topic we haven't talked about RFK Jr. In a while, but this week he gave us several things to discuss, and I'm going to explain it all after a very quick break.
- [33:48]
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- [34:51]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [35:23]
Jen Psaki
It'S going to be a real honor for me to introduce Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Take the oath of office and officially become our Secretary of Health and Human Services. Just as I promised last year, Bobby is going to lead a great national mission to make America healthy again. And he's going to do it. Make America healthy again. He's going to do it. But I mean, is he though? Because if that was actually RFK Jr. S goal, there's definitely some stuff he could be doing right now. I mean, the CDC announced Friday that there are now 800 confirmed measles cases across 24 states. That's a 12% uptick from the week before. And health experts are warning this could turn into the worst measles outbreak in decades. And this is one where we know what to do. The data is extremely clear when it comes to measles. Two doses of the vaccine is 97% effective. And health officials say 96% of this year's cases have occurred in people who aren't vaccinated or people with unknown vaccinations status. And yet there's not been a robust messaging campaign from the federal government to promote the vaccine. This is from Reuters. Quote, U.S. pediatricians and infectious disease experts say the fight against rising measles cases nationwide is being hampered by a lack of forceful advocacy for vaccination from government health officials and statements on unproven treatments that are confusing parents. If you'd just been listening to the guy in charge of the nation's health, you'd have every right to be completely confused. I mean, earlier this month, RFK Jr actually traveled to West Texas, which is the epicenter of this measles outbreak. And afterwards, buried deep down in the lengthy post about his trip, he did include this. The most effective way to prevent the spread of measles is the MMR vaccine, which is true. But then a few hours later came another post in which he praised two vaccine skeptics using unproven treatments as two extraordinary healers. Now, for what it's worth, one of them had been treating kids while he was infected with the measles the week before. That's RFK Jr. S extraordinary healer. Confused. I mean, me, too. In the days following his trip to Texas, RFK also called the measles vaccine leaky and claimed it hasn't been safety tested, even though neither of those things are at all true. And so, with measles cases on the rise and all of this mixed messaging around the vaccine, RFK Jr. Held his first press conference as HHS secretary this week. And he could have used that first press conference since taking the job as an opportunity to clear things up, send clear public health information to the public. He could have used it as an opportunity to tell people that the measles vaccine is safe and effective. But of course, that's not what he did. Instead, he used it to talk about what he calls the autism epidemic. He announced that scientists at HHS will be looking into environmental factors as a possible cause, claiming that he aims to find the cause by September. This is a preventable disease. We know it's an environmental exposure. It has to be. Genes do not cause epidemics. We know it has to be. Well, actually, health experts don't agree with all of that, but it's not hard to see where this all is going, right? I mean, after all, this is a guy who for years promoted a debunked link between vaccines and autism and made money off of it. A lot of money. And this week RFK Jr said that, yes, vaccines are one of the things he's going to be looking at. We're going to look at mold, we're going to look at the age of parents, we're going to look at food and food additives, we're going to look at pesticides and toxic exposures, we're going to look at medicines, we're going to look at vaccines, we're going to look at everything. He's going to look at everything. But I think we know the answer he wants. I mean, the guy RFK Jr put in charge of this investigation just happens so happens to be an anti vaxxer who has long promoted false claims about the connection between vaccines and autism. That's the guy in charge of finding the cause of autism in the next few months. By September, by the way, what do you think his conclusion is going to be? So an infectious disease is spreading. Vaccines are the key to stopping it. And we have an HHS secretary unwilling to forcefully promote them because that might get in the way of his real agenda. And who could have seen this coming? We'll be right back. So this week, the top US Health official. I was just talking about this. Yes, I am talking about the current HHS secretary. RFK Jr. Continued to contradict scores of scientists and experts across the country. He called autism a preventable disease, contradicting many health experts. He blamed environmental toxins for the rise, contradicting CDC findings. And he said the disorder destroys lives, contradicting many families and advocates for the community. It was offensive, unquestionably dismissive, completely disconnected from science and the medical community. And as per usual, he really just left us with a whole lot more questions than answers. So we're going to try to get to some of those answers on that and the measles and many other things. And for that I'm joined by Dr. Ashish Jha. He's the dean at Brown University School of Public Health and the former White House COVID 19 response coordinator. Now everybody's going to get to see when we work together, how I could just go into your office and ask, ask you all these health questions that my friends were texting me and asking me. I appreciate you being here. I just wanted to start with autism. I mean, we know RFK Jr became well known by promoting a theory that vaccines cause autism. We know this is not the case. But I just want to start. You are a medical doctor. You are the. You run for the public health director of Public health at Brown University. What do we know about what causes autism and what is still an open question out there. Yeah.
- [41:21]
Dr. Ashish Jha
So first of all, Jen, thanks for having me here. You know, it's incredibly frustrating watching the secretary talk about autism. The only time he ever talked. Has talked about autism in the past has been when he's been linking it to the sort of debunked theory of vaccines causing it. Here's what we know. We know that the rates of diagnosis have gone up very, very substantially since the 1980s. We think a lot of that is, is because we've gotten better at diagnosing children with autism. And that's a good thing. By the way, I think there were a lot of kids who were under diagnosed in the past. None of us really know what exactly is causing or what causes autism. I think many of us believe it might be a genetic, environmental interaction of some kind. But here's the bottom line. Billions of dollars have been spent on this. People are studying this. There is serious scientific work, work being done on this. And his sort of dismissive approach to this is not going to help any kids with autism. And I think a lot of it.
- [42:19]
Jen Psaki
Is actually quite offensive, no question about it. I mean, you are obviously very familiar with the pace of medical research, too, and scientific research. He's saying he's going to know the cause of autism by September. I mean, I'm concerned that that means he knows what he wants the outcome to be. But what do you think and what are your concerns about that timeline?
- [42:41]
Dr. Ashish Jha
Yeah, so literally there are thousands of people working on this and have been working for. On it for decades. Very, very smart scientists, clinicians. The idea that there's a magic answer that's out there and the secretary is going to find it by September is absurd. And it leads one to the conclusion that you're drawing, which is he already knows the answer. He's made up his mind. This is not going to be a scientific inquiry. And the bottom line is when you distract people with wrong answers, you don't do anything in terms of helping kids with autism. That's the biggest tragedy here.
- [43:13]
Jen Psaki
I want to ask you about measles. This is the question, I think so many parents, my kids are little, so many people watching have grandkids and little kids. I mean, The CDC this week said confirmed that cases rose to a total of 800 across 24 states in the U.S. the first case in Virginia was reported I believe yesterday. State where I live. Neighboring countries like Canada and Mexico are also seeing outbreaks. I know there's been ups and downs with this before, but can, can you put into perspective for us how big of a deal the uptick in cases is and what would be the message if you were still in the White House that people would want would need to hear? You can be their public health doctor right now. Yeah.
- [43:52]
Dr. Ashish Jha
So first of all, we are now already at the second worst outbreak of this century of the last 25 years. And we're still in April. We are going to surp the worst year, which is 2019, probably in the next month or two. This is going to end up becoming the biggest outbreak of the last 25 years. This is not random, it's not coincidental. It is happening both because of bad messaging that's been going on for a long time and now an HHS that is not leaning in. The message is very simple. We have this incredibly safe, very well studied, highly effective vaccine. It prevents measles. Every single person should be getting it, every single child should be getting it. And any message other than that stuff about vitamin A and cod liver oil, it's all a distraction from the one message that matters, which is parents need to get their kids vaccinated.
- [44:40]
Jen Psaki
Important for people to hear. Before I let you go, and this is maybe a harder, broad one, but I mean, they've been in office three months now. There's obviously been a lot of damage done in a lot of areas in my view. But just how are you thinking about it in terms of the damage that being done to our country's health system? Research, fear of vaccines, wherever you want to go with it. But how do you think about it in terms of your biggest concerns?
- [45:09]
Dr. Ashish Jha
You know, Jen, I think you and I both would agree that our government could always be more efficient. There are changes that could be made. But what these guys are doing is taking kind of a broadside to the health infrastructure of our country. Long largely cutting programs in prevention, cutting programs in chronic disease prevention, smoking, hiv. It is going to be very hard to recover from that. Even if we restore that funding, we're going to lose expertise. Americans are going to be hurt by this. The effects are going to be long term.
- [45:39]
Jen Psaki
Dr. Jha, thank you so much. Thank you for all the work you continue to do informing people out there. I really appreciate you joining me. I've got one more thing to tell you about before we go today. We're back after a very quick break. Okay. We're already working on a big show for tomorrow night. The great Bob Woodward is stopping by. Yes, that Bob Woodward, the one whose investigative reporting, of course, toppled a sitting president. He understands White Houses, obviously, and how they function better than practically any other reporter in Washington. I last spoke to Bob right after the election in November. So it's safe to say we have a lot of catching up to do. And that's coming up tomorrow night at 8pm Eastern time. That's going to do it for me today.
- [46:19]
Monday.com Advertiser
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