FIRE WITH FIRE: Newsom sets plan to counter Trump's gerrymander scheme

Summary

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The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode: FIRE WITH FIRE: Newsom sets plan to counter Trump's gerrymander scheme
Host: Jen Psaki (MSNBC)
Date: August 15, 2025

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Overview:

Jen Psaki takes on the week’s most explosive stories, focusing on the extraordinary political tug-of-war over congressional redistricting in the age of Trump. Through a mix of reporting, analysis, and interviews with key figures, Psaki dives into the Republican push to gerrymander multiple states, California’s bold counter-move under Governor Newsom, and the broader implications for democracy, activism, and the rule of law. The episode also traces rising Christian nationalism, analyzes the Trump-Putin summit setup, and captures ongoing threats and pushback on multiple democratic fronts.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• Countering GOP Gerrymandering: How Democrats, led by Gavin Newsom, are responding to Trump-backed efforts to redraw congressional maps in red states.
• “Fire with Fire”: The escalation of redistricting battles and what it means for American democracy.
• Resistance on the Ground: How communities in Washington, D.C. and Los Angeles are mobilizing against federal overreach and immigration raids.
• Christian Nationalism's Influence: The growing power of the far-right religious movement within U.S. government, spotlighted by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s ties to Doug Wilson.
• Putin-Trump Alaska Summit: Analyzing the symbolism and dangers of the upcoming U.S.-Russia meeting.
• Accountability for Alex Jones: Legal updates on the fate of Infowars and justice for Sandy Hook families.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Republican Double Standard on Federal Overreach

[01:00 - 03:02]

• Psaki revisits the 2015 Jade Helm conspiracy, where Texas Republicans panicked over imaginary martial law under Obama—but now embrace real troop deployments by Trump to U.S. cities.

• Quote:
  “That is how hair-on-fire Republicans were just a decade ago... Now fast forward to today. Check out how Republicans are responding to Trump actually sending troops into an American city.” (Jen Psaki, 02:55)

• Congressman Ro Khanna’s Soundbites Used for Satire:
  Painted as illustrating GOP leaders' reversal:

  “President Trump is showing bold and strong leadership... Which is exactly what we’re doing.” (Psaki acting as Khanna, 03:02-03:13)

• Takeaway:
  Republicans who feared federal overreach a decade ago now cheer it on under Trump, exposing stark hypocrisy.

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2. Ground-Level Resistance in D.C. and L.A.

[03:14 - 07:44]

• D.C. residents push back against federal checkpoints targeting immigration status with creative protest (signs, music, direct warnings).
• L.A. students and teachers mobilize against ICE threats on the first day of school—teachers and volunteers patrol to warn families, city sets up “safe zones.”
• Quote:
  “These are the lengths that Americans are having to go, to protect their communities from the federal government, who's supposed to be protecting them.” (Jen Psaki, 07:22)
• Memorable Moment:
  Residents in D.C. blasting “Ice, Ice, Baby” as ICE is present; rideshare passengers shouting warnings to crowds.

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3. Democratic Pushback: ‘Fire with Fire’ – Newsom’s Plan

Special Election Plan Explained

[07:44 - 08:30][21:33 - 22:02]

• Gavin Newsom proclaims,

  “We have got to recognize the cards that have been dealt, and we have got to meet fire with fire.” (Newsom, 07:44)

• California will hold a special election in November to allow voters to approve a retaliatory gerrymander—if triggered by Republican-led gerrymandering in states like Texas.

• Details:

  • The new map would only take effect if a state like Texas implements partisan redistricting.
  • Key Point: California’s move is conditional, procedural, and voter-driven—unlike covert actions in GOP-led states.

• Newsom underscores transparency:

  “We're putting the maps on the ballot and we're giving the power to the people. This will be the first redistricting that's ever done that. That's the difference.” (Newsom, 21:33)

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4. Congressman Ro Khanna Interview – Democratic Response

[11:31 - 19:25]

a) On Supporting Newsom’s Plan

• Khanna’s Position:

  “We have been behind independent redistricting. We want to see that across the country. But we're not going to engage in unilateral disarmament.” (Khanna, 12:35)

  • Highlights Attorney General Eric Holder’s view that Democrats can’t “unilaterally disarm” against GOP gerrymanders.
  • Voters will have the final say, unlike GOP states where redistricting is rammed through.

b) National Coordination Among Democrats

• Congressman emphasizes unity and willingness of incumbents to sacrifice districts for the greater good.
• Quote:

  “The maps will be public... Their incumbents are willing to give up their own districts, which you never have, for the greater good.” (Khanna, 13:55)

c) Federal Tensions – ICE Showing Up

• Border Patrol agents' presence at Newsom’s presser viewed as intimidation, showing overlap between gerrymandering fights and emboldened federal agencies.
• Quote:

  "They show up, unfortunately... where anyone is saying anything that could be opposed to Donald Trump... I mean, they've been showing up to courthouses where immigrants are going through the legal process hoping to arrest them." (Khanna, 15:12)

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5. Epstein Files & Victims – Congressional Action

[15:48 - 19:25]

• Ro Khanna outlines bipartisan effort (with Republican Thomas Massie) for a press conference with Epstein survivors.

• Main goals:

  • Centering victims’ voices, demanding the full release of Epstein files.
  • Intends to subpoena the “Epstein birthday book” with messages tied to Donald Trump.

• Quote:

  “This is not about politics... You can't rig rules for the rich and powerful. And this is to center victims again in this whole saga and to call for transparency.” (Khanna, 17:22)

• House Oversight is working toward a September vote to obtain financial records from the Epstein estate.

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6. Texas-California ‘Redistricting Arms Race’ – Leaders' Panel

[22:02 - 30:24]

Interviews with:

• Gene Wu – Texas House Democratic Minority Leader
• Rick Chavez Zbur – California Assemblyman

Core Issues:

• Gene Wu:

  • Texas Democrats sacrificed and fled to stall special sessions, now passing “the baton” to California and encouraging other blue states to join the fight.
  • There’s still hope in courts to stop “super turbocharged discrimination and racism” in new Texas maps.
  • “Pointing it at California saying like this is a brilliant way to handle it... But what California does is going to do is brilliant. It says we're going to have a trigger...” (Wu, 27:30)

• Rick Chavez Zbur:

  • Emphasizes need to educate voters, foregrounds larger struggle to defend democracy and California’s values, not just redistricting.
  • Explains their approach ensures compliance with the Voting Rights Act, protects diverse communities’ representation, and maintains fairness unlike Texas’ exclusively partisan gerrymanders.
  • “We’re doing this in a different way... The seats that we're creating all comply with the Voting Rights Act. They uplift communities.” (Zbur, 28:52)

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7. Christian Nationalism Ascendant in Government

[30:24 - 38:24]

• Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s alignment with Christian nationalist pastor Doug Wilson is explored.
• Wilson quoted stating ambition for Christian domination, repeal of the 19th Amendment, and exclusion of women from voting.
  • Quote:

    “I'd like to see the nation be a Christian nation. I'd like to see the world be a Christian world.” (Doug Wilson, via Jen Psaki, 31:48)

• Wilson’s growing network has media influence (Tucker Carlson's praise), capital, and now Pentagon-level sympathy.
• Psaki warns this is not fringe anymore; it signals dangerous intent to rewrite U.S. law and foundational practices, such as household voting.
• Quote:

  “It is actually a dangerous signal of a far right Christian nationalist movement growing in influence.” (Psaki, 32:45)

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8. Alaska Trump-Putin Summit – High Stakes, Troubling Symbols

[38:24 - 42:56]

• Interview with Michael McFaul, former U.S. Ambassador to Russia.
• Concerns about Trump meeting Putin one-on-one, echoing Helsinki 2018 disaster.
  • “Presidents, including Trump... have a lot of things to be have details on, whereas for Putin, he's completely focused... That, to me, is very dangerous...” (McFaul, 38:24)
• Symbolism of holding the summit in Alaska (former Russian territory) provides unearned gifts to Putin and fuels Russian nationalist propaganda.
  • “They are having a field day with this. Maybe we’ll get Alaska back. They're literally talking about that all the time.” (McFaul, 41:32)
• Psaki and McFaul are united in worry that Trump’s setup hands Putin advantages preemptively and lacks an apparent clear U.S. strategy.

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9. Alex Jones and Infowars – A Long Road to Accountability

[43:05 - 45:16]

• Psaki recaps the ongoing legal saga:
  • Sandy Hook families win $1.4 billion in damages.
  • Infowars’ assets may finally be liquidated, possibly under new, satirical Onion ownership, per the families’ wishes.
  • “The families are pleased that the court has placed Infowars parent company into receivership, which would finally lead to accountability for Alex Jones's monstrously cruel harassment. Accountability that has been a long time coming.” (Psaki, 45:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On D.C. Resistance:

• “Someone else blared Vanilla Ice’s classic song, ‘Ice, Ice, Baby.’ A plus points for creativity from the sidewalk, while others shouted advice at drivers, encouraging them to ask for badge numbers or remain silent.” (Jen Psaki, 06:30)

On Democratic Strategy:

• “This isn’t about partisanship, it’s about protecting our democracy.” (Assemblyman Rick Chavez Zbur, 25:55)

On the Christian Nationalist Threat:

• “Wilson says in his vision of a Christian society, women as individuals shouldn’t be able to vote.” (Jen Psaki, 32:11)

On Trump-Putin Relations:

• “The President of the United States is starting in the hole, and therefore he needs to get something concrete out of the meeting tomorrow, or this will look like another bad summit.” (Michael McFaul, 42:19)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:00-03:02 | Republican hypocrisy on federal overreach | | 03:14-07:44 | D.C. and L.A. communities resisting federal actions | | 07:44-08:30 | Newsom’s “fire with fire” announcement | | 11:31-19:25 | Rep. Ro Khanna on gerrymandering and Epstein files | | 22:02-30:24 | Wu and Zbur: Texas-California redistricting battle | | 30:24-38:24 | Pete Hegseth & the rise of Christian nationalism | | 38:24-42:56 | Trump-Putin Alaska summit risks | | 43:05-45:16 | Alex Jones/Infowars legal update and victim accountability |

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Conclusion:

This episode is a vivid snapshot of an escalating, multi-front struggle over democracy, power, and American identity. From the streets to statehouses to the national security establishment, “The Briefing” distills how the rules of engagement are being redrawn—sometimes literally—and why the outcome may be decided as much by public action as by politicians’ calculations.

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Transcript

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[Jen Psaki]

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[Jen Psaki]

Ten years ago, conservatives across the country were completely convinced that then President Obama was secretly preparing to impose martial law. It was a wild and crazy conspiracy theory. And that belief was prompted by the fact that 10 years ago today, the US military was a few weeks into a military exercise called Jade Helm. Now, what Jade Helm actually was was a pretty standard eight week military training exercise that had happened to take place across Texas, New Mexico, California and other southwestern states. But because Barack Obama was president, conspiracy theorists seized on the fact that the military was going to be in Texas again doing these exercises as proof that a hostile takeover was planned, that this was all about a hostile takeover. Now, rather than calm that completely unfounded conspiracy and conservatives fan the flames, Republican Senator Ted Cruz said he understood the reason for concern because, quote, the federal government has not demonstrated itself to be trustworthy in this administration. He was, of course, talking about the Obama administration. Other Republicans insisted that the map of the fictitious exercise be changed so that Texas wasn't labeled as hostile. Again, this was just a military training exercise, something that is quite standard that all the branches of our military participate in. But Texas's governor at the time, who, believe it or not, was still Greg Abbott. Man, that guy's been around doing damage for a long time, ordered the State Guard to go monitor the exercise, using taxpayer dollars to send troops to watch the training exercise. That is how hair on fire Republicans were just a decade ago about the unfounded, very remote, not even real possibility that that the President of the United States might be calling the military into American cities. Now fast forward to today. Check out how Republicans are responding to Trump actually sending troops into an American city. What's happening in D.C. this is easy.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

President Trump is showing bold and strong leadership.

[Jen Psaki]

Hopefully this is a harbinger of what.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

We see in these liberally run cities across the country.

[Jen Psaki]

We need to send in the troops.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Which is exactly what we're doing.

[Jen Psaki]

We're going to support this. We're going to support doing this in other cities if it works out in Washington, D.C. i think that this is an experiment that's probably needed in a lot of the Democrat run cities in America. Did they even have a belief system, I ask myself often. I mean, Republicans aren't just okay with Trump using the military these days to take over the nation's capital, a city, by the way, where they all spend a fair amount of time as members of Congress. Of course they want this experiment repeated in cities run by Democrats all over the country. That's the whole plan. That's the goal. Meanwhile, the actual residents of the city Trump is trying to take over are definitely not aligned with that viewpoint, and they are pushing back. This was the scene at the intersection of 14th street and W Street in Washington, D.C. last night. So to give you a sense, this is a neighborhood full of restaurants and bars and lots of people live there. Bystanders chanting things like, get off our streets, go home, fascists, and read the Constitution. At a bizarre mix of federal law enforcement officers and local police who are now under Trump's control. Those officers had set up a checkpoint where for about two hours last night, they stopped dozens of cars and detained at least two people. Federal agents reportedly stopping cars for things as minor as seatbelt violations and broken tail lights. Not sure that's really cracking down on crime. And then asking drivers, of course, about their immigration status, which is probably likely what this is all about. Now, some bystanders reportedly ran into a CVS to quickly make signs warning others that ICE was ahead and directing drivers to turn left to avoid the checkpoint. You can see one of the signs there. They're holding a group of passengers in a rideshare vehicle, rolled down their windows and and shouted to the crowd, letting them know the questions law enforcement was asking their driver, so that the crowd could then warn others who were coming behind them. Someone else blared Vanilla Ice's classic song, Ice, Ice, Baby, A plus points for creativity from the sidewalk, while others shouted advice at drivers, encouraging them to ask for badge numbers or remain silent. That was D.C. last night. The people of D.C. butch, doesn't surprise me. I've lived here a long time, pushing back in practical ways against what Trump is trying to do to the city. All the way. On the other side of the country, we also saw something Similar. Today was the first day of school for the more than half a million children in the LA Unified School District. And in addition to worrying about first day outfits, believe me, that's a thing. I have two elementary school kids. That's a thing. And school supplies. Students and parents across the city were anxious about something much bigger because of our federal government. As the LA Times headlined it today, Fears of immigration raids cloud LAUSD's first day. But just like the people of D.C. the people of Los Angeles are pushing back. This is Ron Goches, a high school history teacher at Maya Angelou High School. He had to teach today, but he got up hours before school, started to patrol the streets around his school looking for federal agents. And Goches is part of an organized group of faculty and volunteers, like some of the people you see here, that plan to patrol all across the city before and after school every day to warn students and parents if and when ICE shows up. The group says they hope to have at least five to seven volunteers per school every single day. And the school district itself is tasking police and officers from several municipal forces with patrolling near 100 schools to set up what the district is calling safe zones around schools in heavily Latino neighborhoods. At a press conference announcing these protections earlier this week, Louisiana Mayor Karen Bass described the situation this way. Here's what she said. Quote, here you have an entire array of elected officials, appointed officials, education leaders, people committed to our children. And we are gathered here today to talk about protecting our children from the federal government. Think about that. Protecting our children from the federal government. These are the lengths that Americans are having to go to to protect their communities from the federal government. Who's supposed to be protecting them from the Trump administration. And as bleak as it is that drastic measures like these are needed, it is also inspiring to see that people aren't just going to take Trump's power grab sitting down. They are pushing back and pushing back forcefully and in pragmatic and incredibly granular ways. We're also starting to see some real pushback, forceful pushback, I should say, from Democratic elected leaders, too.

[Governor Gavin Newsom]

We have got to recognize the cards that have been dealt, and we have got to meet fire with fire.

[Jen Psaki]

That was, of course, Governor Gavin Newsom, who today called for a special election in California this November to fight back against Trump's plan to gerrymander congressional districts in red states so that Republicans can't lose in 2026.

[Governor Gavin Newsom]

It's not complicated. We're doing this in reaction to a President United States that called a sitting governor of the state of Texas and said find me five seats. We can't stand back and watch this democracy disappear district by district all across this country. We need to stand up. Not just California, other blue states need to stand up.

[Jen Psaki]

And it wasn't that he wasn't just that he wasn't laying down and allowing it to happen. I mean, in contrast to the incredibly undemocratic way Republicans are trying to gerrymander maps all across the country, which is basically Trump apparently calling Governor Abbott and telling him to do it, Governor Newsom wants to put the issue in the literal map he has in mind to a vote. He wants to hold a special election on November 4th of this year to let California voters decide whether they want to gerrymander their own state's maps to counterbalance what Republicans are doing in other states, then that voter approved map would only go into effect. And this is a key part if it was triggered by Texas or another Republican led state gerrymandering their maps. So it's a tit for tat escalation in a redistricting arms race. And yes, it's still gerrymandering, but only if Republicans do it first and only if California voters approve it. So will California voters go for it? We don't know yet, but California Congressman Ro Khanna is standing by and joins me to discuss this and many other things in just 90 seconds. Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a.

[Texas House Democratic Minority Leader Gene Wu]

Podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe.

[Jen Psaki]

And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi.

[Texas House Democratic Minority Leader Gene Wu]

Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J.

[Jen Psaki]

Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday.

[Texas House Democratic Minority Leader Gene Wu]

So subscribe please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Jen Psaki]

And joining me now is Promises Congressman Ro Khanna, a Democrat from California and a member of the House Oversight Committee. There is so much to talk with you about, as always, and we talk a lot. But let me start with some of the biggest news in the country right now, which is coming from your home, home state of California. I mean, if Texas Republicans redraw their maps to give themselves as many as five new Republicans in Congress, which could certainly impact you because you and every Democrat wants to be in the majority. But Governor Newsom wants California to be able to draw new maps that would favor Democrats given the circumstances. Do you support that idea and this going to a vote for the people of California?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

I do. Jen. Let's look at the big picture here. Donald Trump is 25 points down on inflation. He is proposing things like a coffee tax, raising the price 20% on every American when they start their morning. People are unhappy. No president who is strong calls up the governor of Texas, calls up people in Florida and says redistrict because we're going to lose. We're going to get blown out in the House if you don't redistrict. That's what's going on. They have totally gerrymanned Texas. And all Governor Newsom is saying, all the California delegation is saying is we have been behind independent redistricting. We want to see that across the country. But we're not going to engage in unilateral disarmament. When you have Attorney General Eric Holder, the biggest champion for honest lines and independent redistricting, saying that we cannot unilaterally disarm. That's a clear signal. And we will actually, unlike Texas, have the voters get to decide on the maps. And it will only happen if Texas goes to throw with this terrible gerrymander.

[Jen Psaki]

This is, of course a state level fight, but you have a stake in it, as every other member of the House does. Is there a role for House Democrats in this moment to kind of help rally the vote in California leading up to November?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Absolutely. Well, first, the role is to expose what Texas is doing, which is a total calamity. They're drawing in minority districts together. They are totally oblivious to the voting rights actors. And I think California Democrats will speak out about what's happening in Texas. But we all are unified as a California delegation, there have been incumbents. The maps will be public, but their incumbents are willing to give up their own districts, part of their own districts, which you never have, for the greater good. And these districts have been drawn in a fair way. And we're going to put the actual districts to the voters, and we're going to say, look, here are the districts. You get an up or down vote on that. And they only go into effect if Texas starts to gerrymander. But if we do nothing and Texas gerrymanders and Ohio gerrymanders and Florida gerrymanders and South Carolina tries to gerrymander to draw out Jim Clyburn. I mean, we can't just sit there and say, well, Democrats are not gonna do anything.

[Jen Psaki]

I completely agree with you. I mean, there has to be. You can't play with one arm tied behind your back, even though nobody wants there to be a. An arms race here. But the Republicans started, and a lot of the laws in their states make it easier for them to do it. Let me ask you, this was so bizarre today, and I wanted to know what you thought of it. I mean, today in California, during the press conference that Governor Newsom held to make this announcement, the Border Patrol agent showed up outside the event. I mean, the Roybel Federal Building is nearby. That's where ICE has been stationed. It felt like a pretty big trolling move to me. But why do you think they showed up and what did you make of it?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Well, it's intimidation. And they show up, unfortunately, where anyone. Where there's any congregation, where anyone is saying anything that could be opposed to Donald Trump. I mean, they've been showing up to courthouses where immigrants are going through the legal process hoping to arrest them. And this is not freedom. I mean, I thought the Republicans used to be the party of freedoms and personal liberties. Now they literally are the party that's calling for the militarization of our streets. It is just an unrecognizable Republican Party. And the Democrats have become the party of freedom and civil liberties.

[Jen Psaki]

I want to switch gears. I told you we'd have to talk about a lot, lots to talk about to another issue where you've been taking a leadership role In Congress. I mean, you and Republican Thomas Massie from Kentucky have a press conference set for September 3rd with survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. First, I think this is so important. I've been honored to have some of the survivors on this show and would love to have more. But also their voices are not heard enough. And that's what this is all about. But can you share more about how many survivors of his crimes you're expecting? What are you hoping to get out of this press conference? What are you hoping people take away from it?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Well, first of all, we want to center the victims because their voices have not been heard throughout the process. First, when Jeffrey Epstein got a ridiculously lenient sentence, they were sidelined. They haven't been side. They were sidelined when Maxwell was sentenced. And their voices need to be heard. And what they want. And what they want, what we're going to hear is foreclosure, the full release of the Epstein files, protecting victims. There are going to be probably at least a dozen there. I can't go into details to protect their identity. And I want to give them the floor to say what they want. But Thomas Massey and I are going to speak for maybe 30 seconds if want you. It's really about the victims and this is not about politics. Look, people say, well, why are you bringing this up now? That's just not true with Elijah Cummings. In 2019, many Democrats called for an investigation. President Biden actually allowed for the process to play out. The two courts were ordering the release of documents. And then Donald Trump got up there and said, let's just release it all. And Pam Bondi got up there and said, let's release it all. And no Democrats said anything. We said, okay, let's release them all. Then Pam Bondi, the attorney general, said, there's nothing to be had here. We're stopping all processes. Let's just move on. And that's not how this country works. You can't rig rules for the rich and powerful. And this is to center victims again in this whole saga and to call for transparency.

[Jen Psaki]

I think it's great that you are doing that. And I would welcome any of them who want to talk more on our show. We'd love to have them. Let me ask you another question about this, because you said you'll move to subpoena the Epstein birthday book when Congress comes back. It's been a long August, but the Congress is going to come back soon. That's the album, of course, of birthday messages for Jeffrey EPSTEIN. And in 2003 that the wall Street Journal reported includes a note from Donald Trump. That's probably why we're all talking about it. He denies it. He sued the paper over it. Now, the Epstein estate told you they'll release the album if the Oversight Committee issues a subpoena. That's what I understand is the latest here. I Are you working on building support for that during this recess? Is that something we could hear a development on in September when Congress comes back?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Yes, we are working to develop support for it. I expect that we will pass the subpoena. The Oversight Committee, as you know, already voted, thanks to Representative Summer Lee's excellent work, to subpoena the Epstein files themselves. The problem there is that it's Trump's Justice Department that needs to comply, and it's Trump's Justice Department that prosecutes whether that compliance will happen or not. So that's going to be a long fight. But the same people who wanted the Epstein files should vote now to be able to get the files from the Epstein estate. And the good news here is they're saying they will comply with the subpoena. Not only can we get the infamous birthday book, we should also be able to get some of the financial records of who funded Epstein, where his money came from. And I'm pretty confident that we're going to get that vote early in September.

[Jen Psaki]

We'll be watching for that. And the financial files are a key part of all of this, no question. Congressman Rocon of California, thank you so much for joining me tonight. Okay, ahead tonight, a story about Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth that I just think deserves a much bigger spot in the news than it is currently getting. And the latest from Texas Democrats and their counterparts in California and the epic fight for fair representation. Stay with us. We'll be right back. Finding the music you love shouldn't be hard.

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[Governor Gavin Newsom]

This is the difference between what's happening in Texas and what's happening here in California. We didn't receive a phone call from the President of the United States to then quietly go in the back room and start drawing maps and legislatively try to jam them through against the consent of the people. We're doing precisely the opposite. We're putting the maps on the ballot and we're giving the power to the people. This will be the first redistricting that's ever done that. That's the difference.

[Jen Psaki]

That was California Governor Gavin Newsom today announcing that he is going forward with a plan to put mid decade redistricting on the ballot in California this November. It's part of Democrats efforts to counter a Trump backed scheme in Texas to rig that state's congressional maps in favor of Republicans. It's the latest sign that Democrats are throwing out the old playbook for countering Donald Trump with a new warning for the Republican Party. If they go low, Democrats just might go subterranean. And I'm here for it. Joining me now is Texas House Democratic Minority Leader Jane Wu and California Democratic Assemblyman Rick Chavez Zuber. Gentlemen, thank you both for being here. I know you have both had very busy weeks. Let me start with you, Leader Wu. Let me start by asking you what this all means for the fight back in your state. You and your colleagues fled the state. You successfully stopped a special session. Governor Abbott said he would call another one to get redistricting done. Will you and your colleagues leave the state again if that happens? Or is this fight now in the hands of Governor Newsom and the people of California, how do you see it?

[Texas House Democratic Minority Leader Gene Wu]

So when we left, we had just simply two objectives. One was to end this corrupt session and to give Texans a chance to actually have their say in all this. And the second thing was to finally engage other states, engage other Democrats and just typically other people who are willing to stand up for this country and willing to stand up for American democracy. With California coming on board, we're ready to pass the baton to someone else, and we're hoping that it gets passed to someone else in a little while. We need to keep this going. It cannot fall solely on Texas. It cannot fall solely on Texas. House Democrats, other people, other Democrats, other Americans need to step up and come help save their own country.

[Jen Psaki]

I hear that. And you have been fighting like hell for the last several weeks. But nothing, as you know, is guaranteed in California. I mean, this is going up for a vote in November and this effort is being undertaken by Republicans in other states across the country. So doesn't it make sense to keep fighting and try to keep people out of the state as long as humanly possible into the fall?

[Texas House Democratic Minority Leader Gene Wu]

That is definitely one way to look at it. But I think a smarter course of action is for us to listen to our counsel and listen to our legal counsel and when they tell us there is a good way and there is a good time to, to if they're going to pass a map, have them pass a map within a certain amount of time, in a certain frame so that the courts can stop it. Don't forget that the current maps that the Texas is built on is already one of the worst racially gerrymandered maps in the United States. And these five seats are trying to get on top of that. You have to have super turbocharged discrimination and racism. And we feel pretty good about our chances in court. And if we're to get the court to enjoin it, if we get the court to, to rule in our favor, it has to be done in a certain timeframe.

[Jen Psaki]

That's interesting and that's interesting and helpful to understand about the court timeframe. Let me bring Assemblyman Zabr into this conversation. I mean, Governor Newsom, we've been playing clips throughout. The show is essentially asking voters in your state to temporarily overturn the independent redistricting commission that they voted for in a previous election. I mean, the argument for doing it is very compelling. I very much believe that. I know everybody, most people do. But do voters in your district agree or are you going to have to really be out there working to sell them on this.

[California Democratic Assemblyman Rick Chavez Zbur]

Well, I think we're going to have to educate voters. But in California, it's sort of like the boiling frog metaphor. Many people haven't woken up to the danger that we're facing because of the dictator tendencies of this administration. But in California, we've seen what this administration is doing. We have goons picking people off the streets and disappearing them. We have the military deployed in our cities. We have our universities being punished with cuts in funding. So Californians know the autocratic tendencies and that we're in a very, very threatening time and we need to fight fire with fire. We can't stand back and do nothing. The big bad bill cut millions of dollars in healthcare. It's cut billions in public in public education funding. And so this is about, we're talking about redistricting, but it's not really about redistricting. It's about really protecting our democracy and protecting the values that the people in California and I would argue the American values that we've all hold dear. And that's what we're fighting for. I think Democrats in California are united behind our governor and our leadership in the two houses of the assembly and the Senate and are prepared to move forward and fight.

[Jen Psaki]

It's a really good point. I mean, your representation determines what voters get. That's what people vote for. It's not just the person representing them. It's about the things they vote for. Let me ask you, leader. Well, you alluded to this already. I mean about passing the baton. There are other blue states where they could undertake efforts. It shouldn't. Also it shouldn't be on just California either. What is your message to voters in those states and leaders in those states about the importance of looking at what is possible with their voters, with their legislatures in short order here? Because it needs to happen in short order in order to address it before the next midterm election.

[Texas House Democratic Minority Leader Gene Wu]

I think just pointing it at California saying like this is a brilliant way to handle it because California, I mean, we can all agree mid cycle redistricting is wrong, that it should be unconstitutional, it should be illegal, but if we have to do it, we need to do it. But what California does is going to do is brilliant. It says we're going to have a trigger and it says we're our maps only go into place if Texas does what we think is wrong. And if they don't do what's wrong, then nothing happens. That's brilliant because it sets it up so that Texas has no reason to act. If Texas acts, then California simply nullifies it. And so there's no reason for them to act. So, and even if Texas does act, it'll, it'll still hurt the communities here, but it'll at least at minimum, protect the country.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. I mean, there are other Republican governors who might act, too. So it's going to continue to be an offset situation, which is a bit alarming for everyone. Let me ask you, Assemblyman, there are, there are theoretical maps floating around out there that could give Democrats as many as nine new seats in California. I mean, Governor Newsom has signaled some interest in those plans on social media. But how far are California Democrats collectively, in your view, willing to go with this if voters give them this power? Like, how many seats are we talking about?

[California Democratic Assemblyman Rick Chavez Zbur]

So, I mean, we're trying to make sure that we achieve at least five seats to offset the loss of seats in Texas and potentially make some of our frontline seats more competitive for the Democrats. But, you know, we're doing this in a different way. Unlike in Texas, where they already have gerrymandered districts, in California, our districts were formed by an independent citizens redistricting commission and were bipartisan. And the bipartisan members of that commission voted all of them for these seats. And when I was prior to my time here, I ran a quail California, which was a civil rights organization, and we argued for these fair seats. What we're doing now, though, is still very different than what they're doing in Texas because the seats that we're creating are all comply with the Voting Rights Act. They all uplift communities to make sure that the black community, that the Latino community, the API community, other communities of interest are represented. We pick up seats, but at the same time make sure that all the communities in California are represented and achieve fair representation in Congress. That's the difference between even what California is doing and what's happening in Texas. In Texas, they're taking gerrymandered seats already and making them worse by failing to comply with the Voting Rights act and really cutting out districts that are represented by folks from underrepresented communities.

[Jen Psaki]

Texas House Democratic Minority Leader Gene Wu, I know you've had quite a few weeks. Thank you so much for being here. And California Democratic Assemblyman Rick Shavazzubur, thank you both for so much for joining me. Still to come tonight, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth recently gave us a glimpse of his spiritual life. Join me on a trip down that rabbit hole, which we've gone quite down the rabbit hole where we will end up in some pretty scary places that's next. So last week, Donald Trump's secretary of defense. So you know the guy, Pete Hegseth raised quite a few eyebrows when he reposted a video captioned full CNN segment on Doug Wilson's crusade for Christian domination in the age of Trump. I mean, that is a pretty loaded title. But that was not a random tweet. I mean, that report came almost a month after Hegseth attended the first DC service for an expanding network of evangelical churches known as Christchurch, which belongs to the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches. And this group is a specific denomination of evangelical Christianity that Hegseth has been a practicing member of for a few years now in Tennessee. And the founder of Christchurch is this guy, the aforementioned Doug Wilson. I'm going to let him and his church speak for their own ideologies.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

I'd like to see the town be a Christian town. Like to see the state be a Christian state. I'd like to see the nation be a Christian nation. I like to see the world be a Christian world.

[Jen Psaki]

Do you see Amy as your equal?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Yes and no.

[Jen Psaki]

In the sense that we're both saved by grace. We're absolutely on equal footing, but we.

[Michael McFaul]

Have very different purposes.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

God given.

[Jen Psaki]

Wilson says in his vision of a.

[Amica Insurance Announcer]

Christian society, women as individuals shouldn't be able to vote.

[Jen Psaki]

His fellow pastors, Jared Longshore and Toby Sumter agree. There are some who have gone so far as to say that they want the 19th amendment repealed.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

I would support that.

[Jen Psaki]

So there's that. There's more where that came from. And Hegseth reposted the video along with the phrase all of Christ for all of life, which is of course the motto of Doug Wilson's church. Now, in response to Hegseth's post, Wilson said he was in effect reposting it and saying Amen at some level. It's concerning, of course the United States Secretary of Defense gave an Amen at some level to not just self describe Christian nationalism, but but also to a figure like Wilson himself. A Pentagon spokesman told the AP that Hegseth very much appreciates many of Mr. Wilson's writings and teachings. So again, not a one off here. Wilson has been for decades kind of on the far right fringes of the conservative movement. He has pushed a revisionist history of the Civil War, claiming among other things, the antebellum slavery produced a genuine affection between the races that we believe we can say has never existed in any nation before the war or since. He's referred to women with several gross and derogatory terms. I'm not going to repeat here. And he has stated plainly that his long term goal is to, quote, inspire a grassroots Christian reformation that would excise the whole idea of secularism from American law and society. But if Wilson and his church were once relegated to the total fringy fringes, they now appear to be getting platformed by some pretty big names, including a guest appearance on Tucker Carlson's show where Carlson praised Doug Wilson as one of the rare American Christian pastors who was willing to engage on questions of culture and politics. I suppose that's a way of describing him. He also appeared as a speaker at a summit hosted by MAGA activist Charlie Kirk. And meanwhile, Wilson has for years been expanding his own grassroots reach. He now has over 150 churches worldwide. He's set up his own publishing arm as well as a network of schools, including a college called called New St. Andrews. And some graduates of that college have gone on to enter the venture capital world, most prominently to a venture capital and real estate firm called New Founding. Now two of the firm's partners are graduates of New St. Andrews College. Among the projects that the firm has backed is a publication that has frequently published, of course, Wilson's writing, as well as a real estate project, the goal of which is to build a far right Christian nationalist community. Tennessee styled after Doug Wilson's home base in Moscow, Idaho. This is all to say that Pete Hegseth retweeting a video about Doug Wilson isn't some kind of random weird thing, if you know what you're looking at. It is actually a dangerous signal of a far right Christian nationalist movement growing in influence. A movement that makes no mystery about its goal to expand its influence even further and ultimately make fundamental changes to our political system. Folks like Wilson have been open that they want to do things like amend the U.S. constitution to include reference to Apostles Creed, like restricting political office holding to practicing Christians and like changing voting practices so that votes are awarded by household. Meaning that instead of every individual over the age of 18 having the right to cast a vote, one head of household, that is a man, would cast a vote for everyone. These are the ideas that now have a brand new home in the nation's capital, where one prominent member of Donald Trump's cabinet has already attended church at least once. And if others choose to join him there, well, that would be just fine with Doug Wilson. As he told Politico, it's gratifying to have like minded people, people around the country who think the way I do and who worship the way I do, coming into places where they can do something about it. Let that sink in. When we come back, Donald Trump is already lowering expectations while Vladimir Putin is putting on the praise ahead of tomorrow's high stakes summit. We'll talk to Ambassador Michael McFaul about what to watch for after a very quick break. So this was what Anchorage, Alaska looked like last night. No kings in the USA projected on the side of a building with Trump and Russia's Vladimir Putin wearing gold crowns, one of which appears to be of the Burger King variety. Love that detail. Then there's peace, freedom, solidarity, we stand with Ukraine. This one here is a very well drawn cartoon of Putin and Trump sitting next to each other, it looks like, in which Trump's thought bubble reads he gets me while Putin responds, I've got him. Very well done. Okay. Roughly 18 hours from now, this city that we just showed you scenes from specifically the Joint Base Elmendorf Richardson base in Anchorage will host a face to face meeting between Trump and Putin. And today we learned more about what to expect. A Putin aide said the summit will begin at around 11:30am local time, which is 3:30pm Eastern. Then Putin and Trump will head off to a one on one meeting to supposedly try and hammer out some type of deal to end Russia's war in Ukraine, though let's not hold our breath on that one given that Ukraine, obviously a crucial party here to this war, given Russia illegally invaded their country, did not get a seat at the negotiating table. The Kremlin was first to announce that Putin and Trump will hold a press conference afterward. As for the American side of that, Trump said a press conference with Putin will only happen if the meeting is positive. By whose standards positive is measured remains entirely unclear. So that is what we are watching for, what we know, what we learned today. But I wanted to ask somebody who knows a lot more about this stuff. So joining me now is former ambassador to Russia under President Obama, Michael McPherson. Let me just start because we've learned more, a little bit more about some of the specific plans for the meeting. And we spoke about this last week. You highlighted and I should note that a lot of this was announced by the Kremlin and some of it was confirmed by the White House and some of it was not. But you specifically highlighted a one on one meeting as something that you would be pretty concerned about. And the Kremlin again announced that plan. So let's talk again about your concerns there and what worries you about it.

[Michael McFaul]

Well, Jen, generally I don't like presidential one on ones when I work with you with President Obama and he had meetings with President Medvedev and Putin, whether prime minister or president, he always had at least one person in the room with him, and usually it was me, by the way. So that you had somebody taking notes, that you had somebody that knew the details. Presidents, including Trump, he has got a lot of things he has to be have details on, whereas for Putin, he's completely focused on Ukraine. He knows every detail. He knows every village that they're talking about. He has his own, you know, really strange version of historical events, but he could go into a long 300 years of history. And so that, to me is very dangerous for President Trump to be interacting with one on one. I would say that about any president, but especially this president who, let's just be frank, is not one that gets into the details of things and is really, really anxious to do a deal, put those two things together.

[Jen Psaki]

And that makes me nervous, understandably so. Trump has also talked about a second meeting which he says will be more productive than the first meeting. I mean, in my experience, and you have a lot more than I do, I mean, suggesting there's going to be a second meeting with somebody who you have a lot of difficult and tricky issues to talk about with. It's very unusual and problematic. But what do you think about that?

[Michael McFaul]

Well, he's creating a big expectation by keeping talking about this second meeting because the second meeting presumably will be with President Zelensky in the room. And just the logistics of it. Think about it. Putin is not going to hang out in Anchorage to a three day for sure. So it'll have to be somewhere else. But by doing so, he is, I think, raising expectations. And I want to be clear, I want the president to do well tomorrow. I want him to make progress on ending this horrific, barbaric war that Putin illegally launched against Ukraine. But to do that, you have to have a strategy, you have to have a game plan. And we're just really thin on those details. And so to throw out that maybe we'll get Zelensky here in Anchorage and, you know, maybe he's hanging out in Washington or somewhere and we're just going to get him up here, I think is heightening expectations in a way that does not serve the President's interests.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, to your point, he even said it might be in Alaska. That's the easiest thing. The logistics of that are a separate question. Maybe we'll talk about them tomorrow. You said something, the whole location of this, and I know we've talked about this, you've talked about this, you said something really interesting this week about how the summit's location being held in Alabama, Alaska, as a signal to Putin that territory can change hands because the U.S. of course, bought Alaska from Russia in 1867. I mean, there's a lot of strange things about the location. But do you worry or should we worry? I guess that the location is part of an intended backdrop for Trump to make the argument that Ukraine should give up land just like Russia did. Is that where the thinking could be? I mean, we don't know they're thinking, but where's your head at on that?

[Michael McFaul]

Well, I think this meeting has three big gifts to Putin before they've even met. So the first one is meeting in and of itself. Putin asked for it, and Trump said, okay, it is a giant gift to any leader around the world to have a meeting with the President of the United States of America, let alone an indicted war criminal. Second, the meeting's taking place in the United States. I think that also is a mistake. Why do that? But then third, to add to it, the symbolism of meeting in part of the former Russian empire, I think plays into the notion of Russia as a great empire. And I just tell you what the Russian nationalists are saying. I watch them on tv, Jen, so you don't have to. They are having a field day with this. They just are joking about it all the time. Maybe we'll get Alaska back. They're literally talking about that all the time. And so I just. I don't understand it. I hope one day we'll understand whose idea it was, but I just think you add all those things up, those three things up, the President of the United States is starting in the hole, and therefore he needs to get something concrete out of the meeting tomorrow, or this will look like another bad summit. The really bad summit that you just showed, clips of Helsinki in 2018, that was a complete disaster for the United States and. And for President Trump. He can't afford to have another one like that again.

[Jen Psaki]

Former Ambassador Michael McFaul. Few people know as much as you do about this topic, and we're so grateful you're gonna be able to join us tomorrow as part of our special coverage on msnbc.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

You're right.

[Jen Psaki]

We'll talk all about what actually happened, which is the most important thing. Thank you again for your time tonight. Ahead at the summit, and up next, conspiracy theorist Alex Jones may finally get, or should I say lose, what he deserves. Definitely lose what he deserves. More on that after a quick break. Far right, conspiracy theorist Alex Jones may soon be forced to finally close up shop over at Infowars once and for all. I say May because it's quite the ongoing saga. I mean, to recap, Alex Jones online media empire, infowars has long been a cesspool of fringe, far right, consistent conspiracies and fake news. And among the most egregious conspiracies he has platformed was the claim that the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School mass shooting was a giant hoax. Families of the victims of that mass shooting sued Jones for defamation, and in 2022, he was ordered to pay them over $1.4 billion in damages. Jones filed for bankruptcy and Infowars was put up for auction last fall. And the winner of that auction was the satirical news outlet the Onion. The best detail ever. You know, the outlet behind headlines like these, the ones you can see on your screen. Essentially, the Onion wanted to turn the already fake news infowars into a parody of itself, and it was a purchase the Sandy Hook families welcomed. But then a federal judge rejected the sale and said that state courts should settle instead. So that brings us to the present. A state judge in Texas has now ordered all of InfoWars intellectual and physical assets to be turned over to a state receiver who will then restart the sale process. Now, Jones thinks of himself as the victim of all of this and is still appealing, which is outrageous. So it remains to be seen if and when that sale will happen. But the owner of the Onion says, we're working on it. That's all I can say for now. I'll be tuning in. And a lawyer for the victim's family says this. The families are pleased that the court has placed infowars parent company into receivership, which would finally lead to accountability for Alex Jones's monstrously cruel harassment. Accountability that has been a long time coming. That does it for me today. You can catch the show Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. And don't forget to follow the show on Blue sky, Instagram and TikTok.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa, and have you been listening to my podcast? We are knee deep in season three, and if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office? Or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx, nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Ripa now. Wherever you get your podcasts.