Free speech BACKLASH as even members of Trump's base reject his attack on the First Amendment

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Briefing with Jen Psaki

Episode: Free Speech BACKLASH as Even Members of Trump’s Base Reject His Attack on the First Amendment
Date: September 20, 2025
Host: Jen Psaki (MSNBC)

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Overview

In this urgent and wide-ranging episode, Jen Psaki unpacks the ongoing crisis around free speech in the U.S. sparked by the Trump administration's aggressive actions against perceived critics and political enemies. Recent government pressure led to the indefinite suspension of late-night host Jimmy Kimmel by ABC, bringing an explosive public backlash — not only from the entertainment sector and progressive circles, but also shockingly from influential conservatives and members of Trump’s own base. The episode also covers the forced resignation of Virginia U.S. Attorney Eric Siebert, who refused to pursue dubious charges against New York AG Letitia James, and the bipartisan response to continued cover-ups surrounding the Jeffrey Epstein case. The show features key guests including Epstein survivor Annie Farmer, Senator Tim Kaine, and Indivisible co-founder Ezra Levin.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The Kimmel Suspension: An Attack on Free Speech

[01:01–05:46]

• Context: ABC suspends Jimmy Kimmel under FCC pressure after his criticism of Trump, sparking sharp outrage from peers and viewers.
• Public Reaction:
  • Protests erupt outside studios and ABC/Disney offices in both LA and NYC.
  • Unions and entertainers rally for Kimmel and free expression.
• Late-night industry speaks out:
  • A Kimmel peer comments, “Every day I count my blessings that I live in a country that at least purports to value freedom of speech. And we're going to keep doing our show the way we've always done it...” [02:18]
• Unexpected voices join the fight:
  • Former Disney CEO Michael Eisner tweets:

    “The suspending indefinitely of Jimmy Kimmel immediately after the chairman of the FCC's aggressive yet hollow threatening of the Disney company is yet another example of out of control intimidation.” [04:01]

2. Conservative Pushback — Breaking from Trump

[05:08–06:52]

• Sen. Ted Cruz, typically a Trump defender, condemns the administration's tactics:

  “I think it is unbelievably dangerous for government to put itself in the position of saying, we're gonna decide what speech we like and what we don't. ... It might feel good right now to threaten Jimmy Kimmel. But when it is used to silence every conservative in America, we will regret it.” [05:08–05:46]

• Bipartisan calls for accountability:

  • Rep. Ro Khanna pushes to subpoena Trump’s FCC chair for “bullying private individuals and private businesses.” [06:26]
  • Even the Republican-led committee chair shows openness: “I think we could do that. I don't think the motion's necessary, but...” [06:39]

• Psaki's analysis:
  Republicans face “the height of hypocrisy ... to now turn around and support a literal government-backed censorship campaign.” [07:05]

3. Investigating Epstein: A Rare Bipartisan Effort

[08:38–12:28]

• Closed-door House Oversight Committee deposition with former U.S. Attorney Alex Acosta about the Epstein case:

  • Republicans like Thomas Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene join Democrats pushing for transparency and forcing release of suppressed files.
  • Image emerges of Trump’s signature in Epstein’s birthday book due to a Republican subpoena.

• Acosta’s testimony widely condemned:

  “I'll tell you, after the first hour of sitting with Alex Acosta, I found him to be completely non credible as a witness. He also would not admit that Mr. Epstein received a sweetheart deal.” [10:04]

• **Psaki: “Alex Acosta insists he didn't do anything wrong, just like Epstein co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell, just like Donald Trump. ... But we know there is more to be learned about Jeffrey Epstein's crimes, who knew about them, who participated in them, and who helped him cover it up.” [10:53]

4. Epstein Survivor Annie Farmer: The Struggle for Accountability

[12:55–22:26]
(Interview with Annie Farmer)

• On Acosta’s lack of remorse:

  “It was really disappointing with all the information that’s come out, what we know transpired ... that he didn’t change the narrative in any way.” [14:01–14:39]

• On the fight for justice and broader transparency:

  “Right now, we don’t necessarily have a clear game plan. ... We’re still hoping ... to push forward the Epstein Transparency Act ... And we’re really grateful for the Republican women who have stood up with us on this issue, and we’re really surprised more haven’t, because again, this is not a partisan issue.” [15:22–17:03]

• On Congress members offering to read lists of names on the House floor:

  “I do believe them when they say they would be willing to do that. ... But I think what we really want is for the government to do their job.” [17:42]

• On the climate of fear amid crackdowns on journalism and speech:

  “I think it’s really terrifying to see the way that that is unfolding so quickly ... It just makes me think about the power of journalism when people are behaving ethically and are not afraid ... and all the damage that can be done when that’s not the case. It is, I think, very, very scary what we’re seeing unfold right now.” [21:19]

5. The Forcing Out of U.S. Attorney Eric Siebert

[24:24–37:24]
(Segues to an interview with Sen. Tim Kaine)

• Breaking news: Virginia’s U.S. Attorney, Eric Siebert, resigns after refusing to charge Trump’s enemy, AG Letitia James, with “mortgage fraud” — a charge Trump is using in a “weaponization of justice.”

  • The “evidence” against James is reportedly non-existent, as is the case with others targeted.
  • Trump publicly justifies Siebert’s firing on political grounds.

• Senator Tim Kaine explains the process and implicates deeper threats to rule-of-law:

  “Donald Trump’s team vetted these people... then decided to fire them. He forced Todd Gilbert out in the Western District after one month because Todd Gilbert would not demote people in that office that Donald Trump and the Department of Justice wanted demoted. And then he forced Eric Siebert out because Eric Siebert would not bring bogus criminal charges against somebody who is a political opponent of Donald Trump.” [30:37–33:05]

• On the significance of this office and future risks:

  “In prosecutor world, the Southern District of New York and the Eastern District of Virginia are kind of viewed as maybe some of the most two critical federal court divisions ... Putting somebody in who's a political hack... rather than an expert ... is very [dangerous].” [33:57]

• On Senate power to resist further politicization:

  “We have a commitment from many on the Republican side ... that we're maintaining a blue slip process so that no one can be buffaloed into these positions without the approval of home state senators and the Judiciary Committee.” [36:16]

6. Threats Against Progressive Groups and the Right to Protest

[37:27–45:09]
(Interview with Indivisible’s Ezra Levin)

• In the wake of the Charlie Kirk shooting (with no evidence that the shooter is linked to leftist groups), Trump threatens RICO prosecutions of organizations like Indivisible and the Open Society Foundation.

• Levin responds:

  “This is a guy who instigated January 6... pardoning those violent insurrectionists ... what he doesn’t like is peaceful protests. And that's true of every autocrat the world over ... when your rights are under attack, the best way to defend them is to exercise them.” [39:34–41:14]

• Announces mass protest on October 18:

  “It's going to be bigger, it's going to be peaceful and it's going to be powerful.” [42:45]

• On grassroots readiness to boycott/pressure Disney over Kimmel:

  “Not only are they ready, they're beating us to it. ... If you subscribe to Hulu, if you subscribe to Disney, Disney plus, cancel it. ... When you cancel it, it will give you the option to submit a comment and tell them, we love Disney. ... But we can't because Bob Iger and Dana Walden are ruining the company and making it impossible for us... to continue sending us your dollars.” [43:14–45:09]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Late Night Host:

  “Every day I count my blessings that I live in a country that at least purports to value freedom of speech. And we're going to keep doing our show the way we've always done it, with enthusiasm and integrity.” [02:18]

• Michael Eisner (former Disney CEO):

  “If not for university presidents, law firm managing partners and corporate chief executives standing up against bullies, who then will step up for the First Amendment?” [04:01]

• Sen. Ted Cruz (unexpectedly defending Kimmel):

  “We shouldn’t be threatening government power to force him off air. That's a real mistake.” [05:46]

• Jen Psaki (on GOP hypocrisy):

  “Republicans like Ted Cruz understand that it is the height of hypocrisy for them to now turn around and support a literal government backed censorship campaign.” [07:05]

• Annie Farmer (Epstein survivor):

  “It was really disappointing, with all the information that’s come out ... that he [Acosta] didn’t change the narrative in any way.” [14:01]

• Sen. Tim Kaine (on forced resignations of prosecutors):

  “He forced Eric Siebert out today because Eric Siebert would not bring bogus criminal charges against somebody who is a political opponent of Donald Trump.” [30:37]

• Ezra Levin (Indivisible):

  “What he doesn’t like is peaceful protests. ... When your rights are under attack, the best way to defend them is to exercise them.” [41:14]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:01 – Trump world Friday: Forced resignation of U.S. Attorney Eric Siebert
• 01:58 – Kimmel’s suspension: Late night and public reactions
• 04:01 – Michael Eisner’s tweet
• 05:08 – Sen. Ted Cruz denunciation
• 06:26 – Ro Khanna’s FCC subpoena push
• 08:38 – Epstein/Acosta deposition & bipartisan probe
• 12:55 – Interview: Annie Farmer, Epstein survivor
• 14:01 – Farmer on Acosta testimony
• 17:03 – Unlikely coalition in Epstein transparency
• 19:59 – On government transparency and congressional immunity
• 21:19 – The chilling environment for journalists and survivors
• 24:24 – U.S. Attorney Siebert's forced resignation breakdown
• 29:11 – Trump justifies firing
• 30:37 – Interview: Senator Tim Kaine
• 33:57 – Risks of politicized federal prosecutions
• 37:27 – Politicization of justice and Senate checks
• 39:34 – Interview: Ezra Levin (Indivisible)
• 41:14 – Announcing mass protests
• 43:14 – Boycott Disney push

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Tone and Language

The episode maintains an urgent, critical, and at times incredulous tone, reflecting the gravity of the threats to the First Amendment and the rule of law. Psaki's style is direct, often passionate, and she foregrounds the voices of her guests whose language ranges from measured outrage (Eisner, Kaine) to weary frustration (Farmer) to activism (Levin). There’s a recurring sense of both alarm and resolve, as those interviewed invoke the language of “accountability,” “democracy,” “hypocrisy,” and “solidarity.”

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Summary Takeaway

This episode crystalizes a pivotal moment in the U.S. — a clash between escalating executive overreach and the collective defense of constitutional freedoms across the ideological spectrum. Unexpected conservative breaks with Trump, survivor activism, bipartisan congressional scrutiny, and grassroots mobilization signal a society grappling with the boundaries of power, protest, and accountability. The threats to free speech and honest prosecution are mounting, but so too is a cross-partisan movement to resist and restore democratic norms.

Transcript

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[Host Jen]

So as I just mentioned, we have a lot to get to tonight. This seems to be kind of every Friday in the Trump world, including some breaking news out of Virginia where a U.S. attorney who would not bring charges against Donald Trump's political enemies has just resigned. His name is Eric Siebert. He has been under immense pressure from the President for refusing to do his bidding. Donald Trump said in the Oval Office today that he wanted him gone and hours later, Eric Siebert resigned. We're gonna talk about that and why and all of it. I'm gonna talk with Virginia Senator Tim Kaine about that late breaking news a little bit later in the show. But first, in the 48 hours since ABC announced it was indefinitely suspending late night host Jimmy Kimmel, under pressure from Trump's lackey at the fcc, there has been a ton of outrage to the news from all across the country. Let's start with the people we knew would have a strong reaction, like, say, Jimmy Kimmel's peers in late night comedy. We were all watching this over the last few days.

[Commentator/Analyst]

Well, guys, the big story is that Jimmy Kimmel was suspended by ABC after pressure from the fcc, leaving everyone thinking, wtf? If ABC thinks that this is going to satisfy the regime, they are woefully naive and clearly they've never read the children's book. If you give a mouse a Kimmel.

[Late Night Host (possibly Jimmy Kimmel or a peer)]

May I just say it is a privilege and an honor to call Jimmy Kimmel my friend in the same way that it's a privilege and honor to do this show. Every night I wake up, every day I count my blessings that I live in a country that at least purports to value freedom of speech. And we're going to keep doing our show the way we've always done it, with enthusiasm and integrity. And I'm we're going to have a conversation after.

[Host Jen]

My 7 year old would love that last part, but otherwise, no notes. They did not disappoint, not a single one of them. Now we also expected there would be a strong reaction from the public and from labor unions representing the entertainment industry, of course, and they didn't disappoint either. Yesterday protesters showed up in droves. You can see the pictures there on your screen outside the Los Angeles studios where Kimmel films his show. And today more protesters showed up outside the New York offices of ABC Disney to demand the network stand up to the mob like pressure of the administration. Now all of those responses, using your platform as a late night host or your right to protest as a citizen are pretty great examples of how the First Amendment can be marshaled in defense of itself. And in the face of a relentless attack on the freedom of press and the freedom of speech, which is what we're in now, maybe historic attacks on it here in this country, it's heartening to see that kind of reaction from both the people on TV and Americans who watch them. But like I said, impressive as they were, those are in many ways the reactions we expected from the people we expected them from. What we did not necessarily expect today were reactions like this. This is a tweet from the former CEO of the Disney Corporation, Michael Eisner. It reads, quote, where has all the leadership gone if not for university presidents, law firm managing partners and corporate chief executives standing up against bullies, who then will step up for the First Amendment? The suspending indefinitely of Jimmy Kimmel immediately after the chairman of the FCC's aggressive yet hollow threatening of the Disney company is yet another example of out of control intimidation. Maybe the Constitution should have said, Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech or of the press except in one's political or financial self interest. By the way, for the record, this ex CEO finds Jimmy Kimmel very talented and funny. Now there's a history between Michael Eisner and Disney's current CEO Bob Iger. We're not going to get into tonight, but that kind of unfiltered public outrage from the former top Disney exec was definitely not on my bingo card. I don't know if it was on yours. I mean, especially at a time when we have seen so many C Suite leaders bend the knee to Donald Trump. I also didn't expect this one.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

I think it is unbelievably dangerous for government to put itself in the position of saying, we're gonna decide what speech we like and what we don't. And we're gonna threaten to take you off air if we don't like what you're saying. And it might feel good right now to threaten Jimmy Kimmel.

[Commentator/Analyst]

Yeah.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

But when it is used to silence every conservative in America, we will regret it. We should denounce it. It's fine to say we. What Jimmy Kimmel said was deplorable. It was disgraceful, and he should be off air. But we shouldn't be threatening government power to force him off air. That's a real mistake.

[Host Jen]

Do not adjust your TV sets. We did choose quite an unflattering photo there, apparently of Senator Ted Cruz, but that was Republican Senator Ted Cruz. Now, you may not agree with every word of what he said. I don't. But he was very clearly denouncing the Trump administration's crackdown on the First Amendment and calling on others to denounce it as. As well. And that is not the only surprising response we are getting out of Congress in the wake of Kimmel's suspension. Yesterday, Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna demanded that the House Oversay Committee subpoena Trump's FCC chair, Brendan Carr, over the administration's shakedown of media organizations. Take a look at Khanna today and watch how the Republican chair of that committee reacted.

[Commentator/Analyst]

I motion today to subpoena Brendan Carr and to have him explain to the American people why he's bullying private individuals and private businesses. Mr. Chair, I hope you'll have him come in.

[Host Jen]

Well, I would. I think that.

[Commentator/Analyst]

I think we could do that. I think. I appreciate that, sir. We could. I don't think the motion's necessary, but.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

I think he would. I'm pretty confident he would be willing to come in to testify, so.

[Commentator/Analyst]

Thank you.

[Host Jen]

Well, thank you. I mean, I didn't. I didn't honestly expect that either. Exactly. And don't get me wrong, there are still plenty of Republicans out there who are twisting themselves into pretzels to defend Trump's attack on protecting free speech. But a number of them don't seem that eager to get behind him on this one. I mean, maybe it's because they realize that their party has spent the last four years, probably even longer, complaining about censorship, decrying, so called cancel culture, and expanding the definition of free speech to include issues like, say, well, whether or not private social media companies can kick you off their platform, even when you lie about vaccines. During the height of a global pandemic. Republicans like Ted Cruz understand that it is the height of hypocrisy for them to now turn around and support a literal government backed censorship campaign. Now, a few months ago, I would have probably told you not to expect longtime MAGA Republicans to break with Trump in any meaningful way, no matter how much he overreaches, no matter how much that contradicts what he does, contradicts their own past positions. And for the most part, MAGA Republicans have stayed in lockstep with Trump even on some of his most heinous and most absurd decisions. But there is an extent to which some MAGA members realize that they cannot just rev their base up about something and then just drop it as soon as it is inconvenient for Trump because that's not good for them politically. And that's what it's really about here. And so we have seen rare moments when conservatives decide to break with the president and even stand kind of on the side with Democrats. Now, we don't know if that will happen here in any big number, but we do know it is possible because we are seeing it happen elsewhere. I mean, today the House Oversight Committee met behind closed doors for six hours to question Alex Acosta, the prosecutor who gave notorious child sex predator Jeffrey Epstein a sweetheart deal to keep Epstein out of prison. That is the same Alex Acosta who Donald Trump appointed to be his labor secretary during his first administration after that sweetheart deal was made, by the way. So my guess is Donald Trump isn't exactly thrilled about having Acosta's name back in the news, of course, but the Republican led Oversight Committee held this deposition anyway. And while Speaker Johnson and the majority of Republicans are still carrying water for Trump over his ties to Jeffrey Epstein, Republicans like Thomas Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene have banded together with Democrats to try and force the release of the Epstein files. And we have now all seen this damning image of what appears to be Trump's signature in the Epstein birthday book, thanks to a Republican subpoena of the Epstein estate. You know the one with the creepy poem where Donald Trump said the two had certain things in common? There it is on the screen. And though you would be hard pressed to find a Republican willing to admit that that is Trump's signature, which obviously it is, they have not given in to his demands to stop investigating this issue. They know they cannot tell their base that they have completely given up on this. That's what this is about. So the investigation continued today with Alex Acosta in the hot seat. And. And despite everything we've learned over the past few months, despite all that we've known about Jeffrey Epstein's sweetheart deal, Alex Acosta apparently still thinks he did nothing wrong.

[Commentator/Analyst]

I'll tell you, after the first hour of sitting with Alex Acosta, I found him to be completely non credible as a witness. He also would not admit that Mr. Epstein received a sweetheart deal. He thinks that his sweetheart deal was.

[Host Jen]

Actually the best course of action.

[Annie Farmer]

He seems to be pretty dug in on the decisions that he made.

[Commentator/Analyst]

It seems like Mr. Acosta really had no idea about what was going on.

[Host Jen]

In his own office.

[Commentator/Analyst]

He refused to accept what those survivors have told us.

[Annie Farmer]

Something doesn't smell right here.

[Host Jen]

This is somebody who is not clearly answering questions.

[Commentator/Analyst]

And so he is completely not credible. And he's completely has been clearly involved in the broader cover up that is happening right now, clearly being directed by the White House and the Attorney General.

[Host Jen]

That really couldn't have been more clear or consistent in what they said about the testimony. So somehow Alex Acosta insists he didn't do anything wrong, just like Epstein co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell insists she didn't do anything wrong. Same way Donald Trump insists he did not do anything wrong. But we know that there is more to be learned about Jeffrey Epstein's crimes. Who knew about them, who participated in them, and who helped him cover it up. And there are other witnesses who can testify about what they know. Witnesses like my next guest, Epstein abuse survivor Annie Farmer, who has been out front in pushing the Trump administration to release all of the files from the Epstein investigation. Annie Farmer joins me here in just 90 seconds.

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[Host Jen]

Joining me now is Annie Farmer, a survivor of abuse at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. She and her sister Maria Farmer, who I've had the honor of talking with as well, are both survivors. And the two made the first known reports of Epstein's abuse to the FBI and NYPD nearly three decades ago. It is such an honor to be talking to you. Thank you for continuing to speak out and for being here with me. It feels incredibly jarring to me and I can't even imagine how it feels to you that it has been 18 years, nearly 18 years since Al Acosta struck a sweetheart deal for Jeffrey Epstein. And when he testified today behind closed doors, knowing everything he knows today, he stood by it. I played some of this. I know you've seen some of this, but I just want to repeat some of it for our. I mean, Congressman Robert Garcia said former U.S. attorney Alex Acosta did not claim any responsibility to victims. Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett accused him of victim shaming. Other Dems say he didn't appear to hold any remorse. What do you make of what you've heard about his closed door testimony today?

[Annie Farmer]

First, thank you for having me, Jen. It's really good to be with you. It was really disappointing, to be honest. I would not say it's shocking because we have not seen a lot of people taking accountability and expressing remorse for the way that this all went so very wrong. But it was really disappointing with all the information that's come out, what we know transpired, you know, even during the time that Epstein was allegedly being punished, that he was able to abuse more minors. It was pretty disappointing that he didn't change the narrative in any way.

[Host Jen]

It is disappointing. It's really horrifying. I find it just outrageous. You were part of a group of survivors who released a statement also this week asking for more from the FBI. You've been one of the most tireless people asking for more, demanding more. And you've been asking for a proper investigation, the release of key witness accounts. I just want to emphasize how hard this is to do when you're a survivor like yourself and you continue to put yourself out there. But have you heard anything? And if not, and I don't know, I don't expect you have, but please surprise me. Are There other. What is next? I mean, are there other actions that you and other survivors are considering?

[Annie Farmer]

Yeah, unfortunately, I don't have any surprising information to share. But I will say, you know, that I think that it is easier to speak out because I have been really inspired by those that have done it before me. You know, Cash Patel yesterday said something about the original sin of this Epstein case, you know, being Acosta's misdeeds. And unfortunately, I think that really erases the very brave act of my sister, Maria Farmer, reporting Epstein's crimes in 1996. You know, so this. I think that there were errors much before then, but, you know, the fact that she did come forward risking a lot and being punished quite a bit in response for that. And then people like Virginia Roberts Giuffre, who we saw, you know, working so hard to speak out about this, that has made me, you know, want to continue to do so. And right now, we don't necessarily have a clear game plan. I think we, those of us who were able to go to D.C. really felt energized by that solidarity and the chance to be heard finally. And I know that from speaking with others, the plan is to continue to push. We're still hoping we're one signature away right now from, you know, hoping to push forward the Epstein Transparency act and require a vote on that. We're really grateful for the Republican women who have stood up with us on this issue, and we're really surprised that more haven't, because, again, this is not a partisan issue. I think most people in this country have when, you know, when they've been surveyed, they say, we want to know what went wrong here. We want accountability. And I think that really is important for moving, moving forward.

[Host Jen]

It's really. I talked about this a little bit at the top of the show. It is really interesting to see kind of the unlikely coalition of people who are demanding transparency, demanding more information be released. You mentioned Marjorie Taylor Greene. You know, they've also. She is one of the people, Thomas Massie is another one, who said they would be willing to take advantage of their constitutional immunity and read your list of names on the House floor, a list of people that you have been compiling with others. Is that something. Have they connected with you about that? Is that something that you believe they're still ready to do?

[Annie Farmer]

You know, I do believe them when they say they would be willing to do that. But I think that really, after more reflection and time, you know, kind of in conversation with other survivors, there's this sense that, you know, we shouldn't be having to drive that forward. Right. Like we should be. We are asking the government who has this information. People have been given these names. They should now do their job. Right. And so, you know, I think that that was said in part to put pressure on that. That certainly is a possibility. That remains a possibility. But I think what we really want is, you know, for the government to do their job, and we're learning new, you know, new things. One of the things that struck me today is that, you know, as Acosta is sort of questioning the credibility of the young women that were victims in this case and sort of giving that as an excuse for not doing more in prosecuting Epstein. I still don't know. Is he referring in part to me? You know, I was interviewed by the FBI in 2006. Right. I'm one of those people. But it's still not clear, you know, who he's referring to, what happened there. I'm learning, you know, from Representative Min about, you know, these computers that werethat Epstein's attorneys had in their possession and the fact that it was, you know, considered a smoking gun by the assistant U.S. attorney, that they were not providing those, that there was potentially, you know, child pornography, that there were other materials that they believed could be really important in locking him up, and that nothing was done about that. And Acosta just says, oh, I don't know. You know, I don't have that information. And so I think to be someone that' sthis is so personal and to be learning about it as it unfolds in front of the country and the.

[Host Jen]

World is really problematic, incredibly problematic. And I just want toit shouldn't be on you and so many other survivors to be pushing this and pushing this boulder up the hill nearly every day and every week. And I think, and it's been so many years as well. I wonder if. Do you think the people who are willing to come forward and use their immunity have access to the information that you're talking about, or is it really they need it more from the federal government to be able to say it publicly? And do you want that to happen? Would that be helpful?

[Annie Farmer]

I think it would really be helpful, yeah. For these names to be spoken, and it's not clear to me. I mean, I'm hearing. Hearing, you know, in this. In this press conference today from some of the House Oversight Committee members, you know, that they were still trying to, you know, seek new information, get access to things they don't have access to yet. They did seem, when we met with them, like, genuinely curious about, you know, some of the people involved in different avenues of investigation. So I'm hopeful that, you know, that that is something they're going to continue to follow and that as they learn that information, they will be sharing it with the public. Because I think for many of us, that would be really important and very.

[Host Jen]

Powerful for people to hear. And it contradicts what Kash Patel said in his testimony the other day. I wanted to ask you, Julie K. Brown, who is, you know, is an incredible reporter who has done so much to tell the stories of yours and other survivors. She posted today on social media wondering if she could even do stories on Epstein and today's climate of silencing journalists. And you have come forward and been speaking out for so long. Other survivors have come forward. I just wonder how you feel and how others feel in this environment, if there is a fear about coming forward and speaking out and telling truths when there has been so much cracking down on free speech.

[Annie Farmer]

Yeah, I think it's really terrifying to see the way that that is unfolding so quickly. You know, I can say that when my sister, Maria Farmer and I first spoke with the media, that was in 2002, and, you know, we spoke with a Vanity Fair investigative reporter, hoping at that time that our story, you know, could make a difference, that it would bring attention to what Epstein was doing. And that was shut down. Right. We still don't really have answers as to why we were taken out of the story, but it just makes me think about the power of journalism when it is when, you know, people are behaving ethically and are not afraid to move stories forward and then all of the damage that can be done when that's not the case. And it is, I think, very, very scary what we're seeing unfold right now.

[Host Jen]

No question about it. Thank you for having the courage to tell your story and to all the other survivors out there for continuing to tell your stories, too. It's incredibly powerful, and there's no question it's had a huge impact on this conversation. Annie Farmer, thank you so much for being with me tonight.

[Annie Farmer]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Host Jen]

Okay, we're going to take a quick break. Up next, we have big breaking news. I referenced at the top of the show out of Virginia, where a US Attorney who refused to bring charges against one of Trump's political enemies has resigned tonight after relentless pressure from the president. I'm going to tell you about it, what happens, where things stand and get reaction from Virginia Senator Tim Kaine. We'll be right back. Back.

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[Host Jen]

So in just the last few hours, the news broke that Trump forced the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia to resign from his post because he refused to indict one of Trump's political enemies, New York Attorney General Letitia James. Now, the charge Trump once brought against James, despite a reported complete lack of evidence, is mortgage fraud, claiming that she listed two separate properties as primary residences on mortgage applications to obtain better loans. That's his claim. Now, if that claim is ringing any bells, it is likely, because that is the same incredibly specific allegation that Trump is trying to get charged against two of his other perceived enemies, Democratic Senator Adam Schiff and Federal Reserve Board member Lisa Cook. For whatever reason, mortgage fraud has become the weird M.O. of choice in Trump's attempt to weaponize the Justice Department against his enemies. And he has his hand picked guy at the fhfa, Bill Pulte, ready to help him target them. But it's not exactly proven to be a great or successful strategy. Earlier this month, ProPublica reported that three of Trump's cabinet secretaries did the exact same thing that Schiff, Cook and James have been accused of doing. Labor Secretary Laurie Chavez, deraymer, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy, and EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin. Now, earlier this week, Bloomberg reported that Trump's Treasury Secretary, Scott Besant did the same thing too. Uh oh. All of them listed multiple homes as their primary residence on mortgage applications, but none of them were charged. Just Trump's enemies. Now, late last month, Trump used the allegations made against Fed board member Lisa Cook as a pretext to fire her. The reality is that Trump wants to replace everyone on the Fed board with loyalists so he can do things like raise and lower interest rates whenever he wants to, even though that is not at all how it's supposed to work or does work. But because the Fed board is independent, Trump can't unilaterally do that. So he is calling Cook a criminal. But get this. Last week, Reuters got their hands on documents that showed that Cook did not in fact commit mortgage fraud. No surprise. She clearly declared her second home as a vacation home when she applied for her second mortgage. Now, at this point, Cook has already sued Trump and gotten a judge to give her her job back. So that should be the end of this whole ordeal, at least for her, right? No, of course not. Because yesterday Trump appealed that decision to the Supreme Court, asking the high court to let him fire Cook because of a made up charge. Then there is the case of New York Attorney General Letitia James, which is very relevant to today's news. James is of course, the Attorney General who successfully prosecuted Trump and his family for civil fraud. So back in April, a Trump appointee accused Attorney General James of mortgage fraud. And Trump's administration quickly publicized that fact. A Trump appointed special prosecutor at the Justice Department, a guy by the name of Ed Martin, who we have talked about plenty before on this show, he has quite a track record, not one you like. Probably threw on a Columbo style trench coat there, you can see him. And did a photo shoot in front of her house with the New York Post. Now that same special prosecutor then called for James to resign over the allegations of fraud before any prosecution had even begun. And for the past five months, prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia have been spending valuable federal worker time investigating Letitia James. They do a lot of important stuff in this particular U.S. attorney's office, which we will discuss in a moment. But earlier this week, ABC News reported that after all those months of investigation and interviewing more than a dozen witnesses, federal prosecutors had still not found any clear evidence that James did anything wrong and declined to indict. Now tonight, the New York Times reports that the lack of evidence is so obvious that even Trump's former defense attorney turned Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, you know, the guy who went and met with Ghislaine Maxwell, that guy questioned the legal viability of bringing charges against James. And So now the U.S. attorney in charge of the Eastern District of Virginia office, Eric Siebert, the person who made the decision not to indict Letitia James tonight, he resigned. He was reportedly forced to resign, forced out of his career position, all for the grave crime of not bringing criminal charges against one of Trump's enemies, even when there wasn't any evidence. That's the story. Virginia Senator Tim Kaine is standing by, and he joins me to discuss it all coming up next. There is a lot that has happened today around the story of the U.S. attorney from the Eastern District of Virginia. This is what Trump said today earlier when he was asked if he would fire him.

[Commentator/Analyst]

I want him. When I learned that he was blue, slipped through by two Democrat senators in Virginia, people that would never vote for the people that haven't voted for us for probably years. Okay? Probably years. In my opinion. Two bad guys.

[Host Jen]

In fact, it was Trump who nominated this guy to his current position. And the reason he wanted him out, as we've been talking about, is because he failed to bring charges against one of Trump's political enemies because there wasn't the evidence to do it, to support it. But shortly following those remarks, that U.S. attorney Eric Siebert. Now joining me now is Democratic Senator from Virginia, Tim Kaine. Senator Kaine, thank you so much for being here. As you can tell, we're trying to piece together this story for people watching who are just tuning in, as I just played. I mean, Trump says that he wanted Siebert out because you and your colleague, Senator Mark Porter, blue slipped him, which is a normal process. But we know from a range of reporting that it really looks like the real reason was because Seibert did not find anything to charge Letitia James with in this investigation and wouldn't move forward as no U.S. attorney should. It seems to me, even with everything happening in this country, and there is a lot happening right now, that this is an enormous deal that the president just forced out a federal prosecutor because he did not charge his political enemy. How big of a deal do you think everybody should see this?

[Commentator/Analyst]

As Jenn, this is a very big deal. And let me add to it. Senator Warner and I We've had the same practice under President Obama, Trump term one, President Biden, Trump term two. When we have vacancies in the U.S. attorney's office, and we have two in Virginia, Eastern District and Western District, we have applicants interviewed by a panel of former U.S. attorneys, Democrat and Republican. They make recommendations to Senator Warner and me. We interview them, and then we send two names for any vacancy to the White House. That's what we did here for both the Western District and the Eastern District. Two names in each. The White House Counsel's Office, the Department of justice, vetted our recommendations, and they put before President Trump bona fide solid prosecutor for him to nominate in the Western District of Virginia, Todd Gilbert, who was a prosecutor in the Shenandoah Valley, who ran for the legislature and became the Republican speaker of our House of Delegates, a strong pro Trump supporter. That's who they nominated in the Eastern District of Virginia, Eric Siebert, a guy who started his career as a police officer in Washington and then became a federal prosecutor. Donald Trump's team vetted these people, and Donald Trump nominated these people and then appointed them in the interim role in both offices and then decided to fire them. He forced Todd Gilbert out in the Western District after one month because Todd Gilbert would not demote people in that office that Donald Trump and the Department of Justice wanted demoted. And then he forced Eric Siebert out today because Eric Siebert would not bring bogus criminal charges against somebody who is a political opponent of Donald Trump. So when Donald Trump says, wow, I realize that Kane and Warner had recommended them, he knew that when it was put on his desk. So either he was asleep, or in my view, he decided, these are good people, but he changed his mind when they wouldn't violate their oaths of office to do horrible things at his.

[Host Jen]

That is such an important rundown of the process that I don't think everybody knows that's how it happens, and every state does it differently. But that, as you just stated, is how it's done in Virginia. They selected these people, they chose them, they put them forward, and now here we are. Because they did not do Trump's bidding in different ways. One of the things we've seen a incredibly troubling trend of is the elimination of people in different jobs and then Trump nominating or the Trump administration putting people in, even if it's in acting positions, people who are loyal to them, who will do what they want them to do. Do you have any sense, this is all a developing story of who might be taking over Siebert's duties. And do you have any concern or knowledge of whether they are somebody who is going to stand up to Trump's effort to move forward on charges even without evidence from the office?

[Commentator/Analyst]

Well, Jen, when President Trump pushes somebody out because they won't file bogus charges, you have to worry about what comes next. But this is a bigger deal than just the Eastern District of Virginia. In prosecutor world, the Southern District of New York and the Eastern District of Virginia are kind of viewed as maybe some of the most too critical federal court divisions in the United States. Why the Eastern District of Virginia? In the Eastern District you have the Pentagon, the CIA and most of the national security agencies. So cases dealing with the most sensitive national security, terrorism and other cases tend to get brought in the Eastern District of Virginia. So putting somebody in who's a political hack, who's a political loyalist, rather than somebody who is an expert. Eric Siebert again started his career as a police officer and then went to law school and became a highly regarded, highly awarded federal prosecutor. He was the head of the Criminal division in the Eastern District. He was the head of the Richmond division. He this year was key to major prosecutions on health care fraud and other key issues. But the problem is this guy's a pro and he's got a backbone and he's ethical. But he wouldn't go after Donald Trump's political enemies on trumped up charges. So the thought that Donald Trump will try to install somebody in this critical division that oversees national security and terrorism related cases who's a lap dog for the president rather than an independent prosecutor is very. And that's why we are going to do everything we can to insist that the Senate maintain the blue slip process whereby a president can't force people to be prosecutors in states without the consent of the home state senators.

[Host Jen]

Do you think you have the power to do that in the case of the Trump administration? And then putting people who are unqualified and political lackeys in jobs like this in other states like, say, New Jersey.

[Commentator/Analyst]

We have a commitment from many on the Republican side, including the chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Chuck Grassley, who bragged about the fact that he worked with Virginia's Democratic senators to get good people nominated by Donald Trump. We've got their commitment that we're maintaining a blue slip process so that no one can be buffaloed into these positions without the approval of home state senators and the Judiciary Committee. We count on our Republican colleagues to not let Donald Trump bum rush unqualified people into position so that they can politically target Donald Trump's enemies rather than do justice, equal justice under the law, as the engraving over the Supreme Court suggests. We should be devoted to Senator Tim Kaine.

[Host Jen]

You gave us so much information to better understand this story, the importance of this office, the backstory and what happened to nominating these individuals. I'm so grateful. Thank you so much for being here with me tonight.

[Commentator/Analyst]

Very important, Jen. Glad I could do it.

[Host Jen]

All right, we're going to take a quick break. After that, we're going to talk about how the Trump administration says it is raiding a crackdown on liberal group groups after the killing of Charlie Kirk. Ezra Levin is the co executive director of one of those groups and he joins me to react and talk about all of it after a quick break. Today, federal officials told NBC News that so far there is no evidence that the shooter who killed Charlie Kirk last week is affiliated with any specific group or organization. But despite that fact, Donald Trump and his allies continue to target the so called radical left, as they call it, in connection with Kirk's killing. Now this week, Trump has escalated the blame game by threatening to take legal action against left leaning groups that he has accused of promoting violence. Specifically, Trump and other members of his administration have discussed opening a federal RICO investigation into liberal groups like the Open Society foundation, founded by billionaire George Soros and and Indivisible. Now, Indivisible's leadership has consistently opposed all forms of political violence. They train people not to be peaceful in maintaining that the grassroots organization is rooted in peaceful yet effective forms of protest. That's what they do. Which is why when late night host Jimmy Kimmel was pulled off the air by Disney after pressure from the Trump administration and the FCC lackey, Indivisible responded by calling on its local groups to cancel their Disney, Hulu and ESPN subscriptions to send a strong message using the power of their wallets. Joining me now is co founder and co executive director of Indivisible, Ezra Levin. Ezra, it's great to see you. And I've talked to you a number of times. I've gotten to know you a little bit and I've always known you to be somebody who's trying to help bring so many people into the process of peacefully protesting and sharing their views on issues. They have concerns about grandmas, kids, families. That's a big part of what you guys do. I know you're also not naive about the world out there. Were you surprised that the Trump administration threatened to file racketeering charges against your organization? Did that surprise you look, I think.

[Ezra Levin]

Anybody paying close attention to this administration knows exactly what this is about. This is a guy who instigated January 6, the bloody attack on the Capitol. This is a guy who immediately upon winning reelection, made as his first act pardoning those violent insurrectionists. And this is a guy who just a few days ago, this is a direct quote, said, I couldn't care less about right wing political violence. I take him at his word there. I don't think he cares about political violence. What he doesn't like is peaceful protests. And that's true of every autocrat the world over. The one thing that they fear is broad based, ideologically diverse, geographically dispersed, peaceful protest. Because Trump, as well as these other autocrats understand that their agenda is unpopular, understand that they cannot hold on to power if people peacefully voice their opinions. Which is why he is wielding the full might and power of the United States of America to get a comedian fired. Come on. This is beyond ridiculous. It is an attack on our First Amendment rights. And what we strongly believe is that when your rights are under attack, the best way to defend them is to exercise them. Which is why we are putting together with millions of people around the country what is going to be the single largest peaceful protest in defense of our constitutional rights in American history. And that's on October 18th. October 18th. For no.

[Host Jen]

Okay, so the single largest protest, what does that look like? 50 states, certain locations? How big are we talking? You've put together some very big protests here. And what's the reception been like to it?

[Ezra Levin]

Look, the reception's been incredible. We started this year having people go out to their member of Congress's town halls and voice their opinion. They didn't like what Elon Musk was doing. Ransacking the government. That evolved into what was hands off in April, at the time, one of the largest peaceful protests in American history. If you're watching the coverage of that, what you saw were moms and grandmas, kids and their dogs showing up, dancing, laughing, and powerfully saying, hands off. We don't want you implementing this unpopular agenda. That was huge at the time. And then we had in June, no King's Day, when Trump was trying to get all this attention for a military birthday parade. Something you would see out of a place like North Korea, certainly not America. Instead of him seeming like the most powerful political figure in the country, we had 5 to 6 million people out on that day all around the world. 2,169 peaceful protests in 27 countries, every single congressional district. And you know what we're going to do on October 18th. We're going to beat it. It's going to be bigger, it's going to be peaceful and it's going to be powerful.

[Host Jen]

Let me ask you because in the last couple of days I've talked to a lot of people who are wondering kind of what to do. They feel so outraged about Jimmy Kimmel being sidelined. It's a part of a much bigger story. To state the obvious. In your circles of people you talk to in small communities and towns who are organizing, are they prepared to do things like boycott Disney and ESPN and Hulu, as you said? I mean, these are shows and programs people rely on. Are they ready to to do something like that?

[Ezra Levin]

Jen, I got to be honest. Not only are they ready, they're beating us to it. We did not even put out a press release. And we were hearing from indivisible groups in LA and in New York that they were showing up at Disney headquarters, that they were showing up abc, ABC News. We are following their lead. They are chomping at the bit. And for folks looking for what to do. You have power right now. You can do something. And I know Disney is this big, huge corporation. How can anybody actually take it on? Let me remind everybody watching Disney's a huge corporation. Disney is run by human beings. Some of those human beings are cowards. Those cowards don't want to be named and shamed. And if you do that effectively, they will shift their behavior. So Bob Iger, the CEO of Disney, Dana Walden, the co chair of Disney Entertainment, both of whom are reported to be involved in the firing of Jimmy Kimmel, they don't want you to know that they are the ones who are pushing back against your First Amendment rights. They don't want to be shamed to shift their behavior. So here's my recommendation. If you subscribe to Hulu, if you subscribe to Disney, Disney plus, cancel it. When you cancel it, it will give you the option to submit a comment and tell them, we love Disney. We would love to resubscribe, but we can't because Bob Iger and Dana Walden are ruining the company and making it impossible for us in good conscience to continue sending us your dollars. And when you're done doing that, take a screenshot, post it to your social media and then talk to your friends and your family about how you can show up in public to protest these actions. If we collectively do that, Jen, they're going to shift behavior.

[Host Jen]

Ezra Levin, you always have specific advice for everyone. Thank you so much. We'll be right back. That does it for me tonight.

[Ezra Levin]

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